Our CEO Mark Wells has written a letter in response to people who have contacted him to express their concerns over our decision to restrict European trade accounts from selling outside the EU. We asked him nicely if we could also post it here for all of you who have been letting us know how you feel on Facebook and so here you have his personal reply.



Sincerely,



The Web Team



Dear Hobbyists,



Thanks for contacting Games Workshop about the change in our trading terms for European accounts. I know this has frustrated you and for that I am truly sorry. As a long standing customer, you deserve to know why we made this decision.



As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centres and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centres run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us.



Where we don't have a Games Workshop Hobby Centre, we support local independent trade accounts. These businesses provide a convenient place for customers to buy our products close to where they live. We support these businesses with local customer service teams and warehouses to ensure customers have immediate access to our best selling products and new releases. Many customers discover the hobby this way.



In addition we invest millions of pounds every year in our design studio and factory to ensure that each month we release more new products. This makes the Games Workshop Hobby more exciting for existing customers, helping them stay in the hobby longer. We can only afford to do this because of the volume of customers we have recruited and developed through our local Hobby Centres and trade accounts.



It is for this reason that we have changed our European Trade terms. Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists. This has been the case with European internet traders selling to some of our customers overseas.



While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.



The inevitable consequence if this was allowed to continue is that Games Workshop would not be able to operate Hobby Centres, nor to support local trade accounts. And if this happened in more territories outside Europe, the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do.



That is why we took the decision to take legitimate action to restrict European trade accounts from selling the goods they purchase from Games Workshop outside Europe.



While I understand that you may still be unhappy with our decision, it was taken to ensure we can continue to support the Games Workshop hobby communities around the world through our Games Workshop Hobby Centres and local trade accounts. And to ensure we continue to invest in developing the best possible new product releases every month. I hope therefore that over time you will see the benefits of this decision for you and your hobby.



Yours sincerely,



Mark Wells

Chief Executive

18 May 2011

AKA "we don't care what you have to say, now feth off"
*sigh I really wanted to get the new Dark Eldar PP here i come

Like how he doesn't mention the price disparities.

I'm waiting for his real explanation as to why they're raising prices while cutting costs. You know, the one where he tries to tell us his greed is good for our hobby. That sort of thing. Should be entertainment, unfortunately at our great expense.

EDIT: grammar

"I'm only doing this because i love you" Hmmm, where have I heard that line before

Tries to make out like the legit and amazing online stores who typically give great customer service consistently as the bad guys.

What the F.

I feel like no response would have been less of a faceslap than this "letter".

All very reasonable sounding except the 'so just shut up and pay double you convicts' he seemed to miss off the bottom......

One thing good that has come of this, however, is people can now see that they can make waves that get the attention of these guys. People need to stop acting like they're helpless and use their money to move the hobby in a positive direction.

It's pretty arrogant though that we only "get to see this letter" because thewebguys "asked permission" to show us proof that the emperor had spoken. heh. My god.

Sometimes I think Wells seriously believes we're all a bunch of peasants huddling in dark corners gaking ourselves every time he threatens us.

Oh well, maybe we should just play with what we have or move on to new stuff say feth off to GW wait for the inevitable failure and hopefully someone competent picks up the IP because if 40k and fantasy were run by monkeys it would be doing better than GW right now.

What an absolute bunch of horseplop.

I haven't felt like my intelligence was being insulted so bad since the last time I saw an episode of smallville...

Is this the same hobby investmet that seen a big chunk of their stores drop down to a size not much bigger than a cardboard box? Where you have just one table and that's it, and that table looks to less than 6ft in length? Does he have a list of all these places that are due to open now that the market has been brought back under control? With all this naughty undercutters wiped out they must now be free to expand, expand, expand in your area

While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.

Greed, greed, greed, basically. Basically their markup to an Aus indie is better than the mark up when selling to a UK indie. I love the fact that these people think we are idiots.

Just a theory, but in the UK alot of Indies sell other systems as there is the support for them over here. it's fairly easy to find someone to play against. From what I've seen posted here over the years, the US and Aus are a harder market for other systems to take hold. This means that a lot of Indies rely on the selling of GW stock to keep them going. GW needs these Indeis because it can't afford to open stores itself. This then means if the Indies go under they don't sell so much stock. Nothing to do with a "hobby community spirit", just profit. As I keep say gamers should simply say "stuff you" and stop buying. Don't go to any of the shows or tournaments they arrange either. Stop acting like 14year old boys who've just seen a naked lady, when it comes to rushing to the Forge World stand to buy stuff.

Remind GW that it takes two to tango. You want them to be there and you love their stuff, but, and it's a big BUT, "stop shafting us." As much as it's scoffed at, getting GW to behave is in the consumers hands, punish them by withholding your purchases.

If I were to write what I am thinking write now...

Pig Iron Productions, you shall be receiving large orders from me from now on.
I think I speak for everyone when I say I am honestly sick off GW's .

Yes, I am rage-quitting.

The GW open letter is reasonable as far as it goes, but it doesn't address the reason why people where buying from the EU, which is the insane price differential caused by GW being greedy.

It might be feasible to finance a trip to Australia by taking a suitcase full of kits bought from Maelstrom. Organise it with a local club in one of the big cities.

Wolfstan wrote:Is this the same hobby investmet that seen a big chunk of their stores drop down to a size not much bigger than a cardboard box? Where you have just one table and that's it, and that table looks to less than 6ft in length? Does he have a list of all these places that are due to open now that the market has been brought back under control? With all this naughty undercutters wiped out they must now be free to expand, expand, expand in your area

While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.

Greed, greed, greed, basically. Basically their markup to an Aus indie is better than the mark up when selling to a UK indie. I love the fact that these people think we are idiots.

Just a theory, but in the UK alot of Indies sell other systems as there is the support for them over here. it's fairly easy to find someone to play against. From what I've seen posted here over the years, the US and Aus are a harder market for other systems to take hold. This means that a lot of Indies rely on the selling of GW stock to keep them going. GW needs these Indeis because it can't afford to open stores itself. This then means if the Indies go under they don't sell so much stock. Nothing to do with a "hobby community spirit", just profit. As I keep say gamers should simply say "stuff you" and stop buying. Don't go to any of the shows or tournaments they arrange either. Stop acting like 14year old boys who've just seen a naked lady, when it comes to rushing to the Forge World stand to buy stuff.

Remind GW that it takes two to tango. You want them to be there and you love their stuff, but, and it's a big BUT, "stop shafting us." As much as it's scoffed at, getting GW to behave is in the consumers hands, punish them by withholding your purchases.

Basically the issue here in Aus, or at least here in Adelaide is a near total lack of stores that sell wargaming minis other than GW. The same issue happens with D&D, where there aren't many retailers selling the books, and the trading card market is down to about 3 main retailers in the CBD. Only store I can think of that sells...um... Warmaster I think it's called? is Infinity Games, who for personal reasons I refuse to shop at (long story). We have about 3 GW stores in the state, and the only major Rogue Trader I knew of back in the days when I played in high school shut down (long story involving a murder-suicide happening outside while the victim and killer's kids were playing inside)

But I digress. Basically things other than GW have a hard time taking off here because no stores with a decently accessible location sells them. (GW is set up at the three main shopping hubs here, Marion in the southern suburbs, Tea Tree Plaza in the northern suburbs, and Adelaide City in the CBD. All in high traffic malls and in fairly high traffic or well placed areas (ie, the Marion store is right next to a cinema, so lots of foot traffic, the City store is in the same arcade as one of the main TCG stores and a decent sized comicbook store, so lots of geek foottraffic) whereas the independant stockists are either generic modeling stores (and thus don't advertise the wargames much) or are out in the suburbs in random locations that you'd only find by looking them up in the yellow pages, if even then.


BTW, does this cut-off effect our ability to order Forgeworld from the UK? I still need me some forgeworld Broadsides

It is for this reason that we have changed our European Trade terms. Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists. This has been the case with European internet traders selling to some of our customers overseas.

I am laughing, but somewhat sardonically at how ridiculous this statement is.

If the prices Australians (or anyone else in that neck of the woods) was even close to what those in Europe/the US enjoy, there would not be this massive conflagration taking place now. His comment needs to be changed to,

"a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, we have decided to try to take advantage of this by just ignoring international exchange rates, and thereby forcing customers in these territories to pay massively inflated prices."

At least he has replied, more than has happened in the past! We need to keep up the momentum..

Kilkrazy wrote:It might be feasible to finance a trip to Australia by taking a suitcase full of kits bought from Maelstrom. Organise it with a local club in one of the big cities.

Please come to Sydney, you could set up your own store and you would be flying new stock in everyday.

I don't think there is an easy answer to this. If they drop the embargo and don't lower prices...they won't see much money back. If they drop the embargo and do lower prices...they won't be able to justify keeping the hobby stores open or independent retailers stocked. If they keep the embargo they lose alot of customers.

Either way; bad stuff happens.

Pacific wrote:
If the prices Australians (or anyone else in that neck of the woods) was even close to what those in Europe/the US enjoy, there would not be this massive conflagration taking place now. His comment needs to be changed to,

"a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, we have decided to try to take advantage of this by just ignoring international exchange rates, and thereby forcing customers in these territories to pay massively inflated prices."

At least he has replied, more than has happened in the past! We need to keep up the momentum..

It is funny how Wells failed to address the discrepancy in prices. We do indeed need to keep up the pressure.

So what about the price rises? What do they have to say for themselves about that?!

Except you would then be a business, and subject to the EU export / import laws which are what allows GW to restrict in-EU from selling to outside-EU in the first place.

I imagine the import duties would also be enough to offset any profit, as well - while you can reclaim the VAT in the UK (eventually - theyre not quick at refunding) you would then have import duty to pay when you got to Aus.

The response was as expected, and is similar to what the instruments business did. PP et al know fully well that, if GW closes retail stores, they're in trouble - the only thing that gets people into the hobby in the numbers needed to even sustain it are the GW stores. Indies just arent numerous enough, or can all have the dedicated support (well, the intro / painting / etc) thats needed.

Working in a relatively small franchise that sells video games, I sort of sympathise with GW. And I figured I'd thrown in my two cents and try to explain why I sort of agree with their decision and understand with what they're saying.

The easiest way I can explain it is showing my stores predicament...the disparity of the australian dollar is so big right now its ludicrous to buy video games anywhere else other than overseas retailers. This pretty much strangles smaller buisness's like ours that are doing the right thing by charging as little as we can for items but because of the massive cost difference for local as opposed to imported items it puts us between a rock and a hard place. Whats the REALLY frustrating part is that everyone thinks that because things are $30AUS from the states or UK is normal, and that us charging retail of $59 or $79 makes us ripoff merchants that deserve to go out of business. People need to understand this very basic fact.....most stores DON'T OVERCHARGE. We put the margins (sometimes less) on items because we are getting CHARGED more as retailers. Not only is it illegal for most retail chains and stores to sell things from overseas (esp. difficult for my sector as there is region coding to contend with) but we also have to deal with store costs, staff costs, and various other things.

GW is in the exact same boat as most small franchises, even though they are a global company. They are a very small niche product (in the grand scheme of things) where their intellectual property is their only assest. They have to pay for stores, staff and everything else like the rest of us small fry's, except they have a tiny minority of the community to capture. They don't do price hikes to pad thier pockets and fill their vaults, they raise prices because most people are biting the hand that feeds them and accuse them of being money hungry corporate types. Fact is, most companies don't do things like this unless its absolutely necessary, and I for one applaud them on at least being upfront and honest about their reasoning about it.

People rage quitting because of this I respect your reasoning and understand completely with your thinking. I wish you well. Just have a bit of foresight next time when the next big company rolls around and they start raising prices due to the amount of people trying to undermine their own products.

FYI, he sent a slightly different version of the letter specifically to Australians who were complaining. It has this bit added:

While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.

We on the other hand have to keep paying our Australian staff, rents and utilities in Australian dollars. While some customers have suggested we halve our prices, the only way we could do that is if we halve our Australian staff's salaries, default on our rents and not pay our suppliers until exchange rates move back into alignment. That's the reality of what a price reduction of this scale means. And we both know that customers who are motivated by price are not going to change their behaviour if it was any less than that.

The inevitable consequence if this was allowed to continue is that Games Workshop would not be able to operate Hobby Centres, nor to support local trade accounts. And if this happened in more territories outside Europe, the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do.

If I can try to wrap my head around what is being said, I *think* they're trying to say that they built an Australian infrastructure and put that money back into improving their production facility under the idea that sales from the region would be generating a set amount which was based on the relative currency rates on the time. And now if they were to adjust their prices to make them relatively equal, they would not be able to maintain their infrastructure because they would be losing too much money.


That just seems crazy to me. I'm very curious if there are any other international companies out there that have their own retail chain and whether they are forced to do the same thing (keep their prices locked in at a certain exchange rate in order to maintain their business plan)?

I've never heard of it. It seems crazy. If it is the truth it seems terrible and if its not the truth then its terrible.

They seem to have failed to understand how this 'capitalism' malarky works.

If you piss off the customers, they leave. If they leave you get no money. If you get no money, you end up living in an old Walker's Crisps box out the back of an Oxfam shop.

The addition you highlighted is as you pointed out just pain crazy yakface.

If they lowered prices here in Oz, the vast majority of gamers who order from overseas (myself included) would switch back to Australian stores for purchasing product.
There are online discounters here to, offering 20% off GW retail. I'd be buying from them.
The rebound of slaes both GW stores and independents would certainly ensure that GWOZ would be sucking down a hell of alot better return than it currently is.

I don't expect there to be exact price parity with the US or UK, 10% difference to cover transport is entirely justifiable.
But since I got into the hobby in 1990 GW have always charged at least a 30% premium on us poor Australians compared to the UK.


If GW is crazy enough to give Oz the price rises the rest of the world is getting, shenanigans on an epic scale will ensue.

yakface wrote:It seems crazy. If it is the truth it seems terrible and if its not the truth then its terrible.

Yep, that seems to sum up this entire week...

One of the posters on BOLS made a very good point - I wonder if this Wells realises how HUGE Australia actually is, and that by attacking the European suppliers, he's actually shutting down supply of GW hobby products to a lot of Aussies who live nowhere near one of his vaunted "hobby centers".

My State, Queensland, has, to my knowledge 4 GW stores. To put Queensland in perspective, it’s more than seven times the size of the United Kingdom, more than four and half time the size of Japan, around six and half times the size of New Zealand, and more than five times the size of Texas.

That's ONE State in Australia. That's a hell of a lot of hobbyists who may have been buying from Maelstrom etc. over the net, who live nowhere near a GW store...who now will probably buy NOTHING.

Mr. Wells, sorry, but any sale is better than no sale at all. Please don't insult our intelligence again.

Padre^.

Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists.

Hang on, they crack down on internet traders because they take advantage of currency movements to offer discounts. But if GW hadn't adjusted things for the currency movements then there wouldn't be a huge discrepancy to take advantage of. They basically blame the customer for finding an alternative to their own greed.

I'll be most interested to see their explanation for a huge price increase to pay for switching over to a cheaper casting material.

Also for the first time in 21 years and 5 months in purchasing GW games/models I have decided to stop new armies and sell off EVERYTHING I don't need as I'll never be able to get new armies to a playable level at GWOZ prices

I'll still buy, but at a snails pace.

No more $1500 spurges on chimeras.
No more $2500 SM army buy in one go
No more spontaneous 'yes I'll get that'
No more special edition miniatures


A heap of WHFB players left for Warmahordes last year and sold everything they had.
At least 15 of the top 30 tournament players in Oz just left.
I am sorely tempted to follow.
I'll still play WHFB and 40K but most of the money will sink to other companies.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The addition you highlighted is as you pointed out just pain crazy yakface.

If they lowered prices here in Oz, the vast majority of gamers who order from overseas (myself included) would switch back to Australian stores for purchasing product.
There are online discounters here to, offering 20% off GW retail. I'd be buying from them.
The rebound of slaes both GW stores and independents would certainly ensure that GWOZ would be sucking down a hell of alot better return than it currently is.

I don't expect there to be exact price parity with the US or UK, 10% difference to cover transport is entirely justifiable.
But since I got into the hobby in 1990 GW have always charged at least a 30% premium on us poor Australians compared to the UK.


If GW is crazy enough to give Oz the price rises the rest of the world is getting, shenanigans on an epic scale will ensue.

Well obviously GW does make a certain amount of sales from the actual region of Australia, and were they to slash the costs of their current prices to make them closer to their global counterparts they're saying this will result in a massive decline in the amount of money they're making, even if it would result in people stopping purchasing stuff online and getting it shipped.

And I do think that makes sense in that when you lower prices, you're still having to pay the same cost to produce and ship the miniatures so even if your sales increase because you lower prices you're getting less of a margin on those increased sales, so in order to net the same amount of money (or more) you have to dramatically increase sales, and clearly GW doesn't think that slashing the prices would do that (whether that's right or wrong, I have no idea).

The other thing to consider is that all the independent retailers in Australia have paid for their product already. They have them sitting on their shelves and they paid X amount of money for those products to GW under the expectation of being able to sell them for Y. If GW were to suddenly slash their Australian prices, all that stock would instantly devalue in half, putting a gigantic strain on anyone with a decent sized inventory, including the Australian distributors.

Basically, GW seems to have gotten themselves in this predicament by setting Australian prices outrageously high when the currencies were way different and keeping it there when the currencies fluctuated instead of shifting with the fluctuation.

Now to make that change suddenly would be too detrimental to the company to contemplate.


All of this is actually making sense to me, except that what GW *should* be doing, is to announce a SLIGHT price reduction in Australia, with promises that the prices will continue to drop over time until they are closer to the true global exchange rate....but then again, I have no idea how any of this really works!

I have a similar gripe with the way that lots of products in the UK are priced higher here than in the states even though our currency is stronger than the dollar. My big hate is apple with the Ipod, Ipad etc or PCs and Macs. It annoys me, so for once I am glad that I'm in Britain and that GW is a British company. Even here I am not impressed with their pricing but they do turn out some lovely models that give me lots of enjoyment, I buy most of my GW stuff from an independent who bring the prices down a bit. I confess I have a lot of unpainted models and I am trying to resolve to finish them all before buying more which means that I wouldn't have to buy anything for quite some time!

Urgh, I'm just gonna have to start buying from the same online store I buy my MTG cards from, they have discounts off the local prices and I've known the owner for ages so they treat me well

Wells talks about loss of volume impacting on R&D etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but if I buy from Maelstrom isn't that a sale of GW product, and hence "volume"? Now they'll sell nothing instead. There's their loss of volume.

Hey Mark. I found them for you.

Battlefront miniatures to their credit realligned prices around the world last year to reflect the massive changes in what had been longstanding stable currency echange rates.
People I know who play FOW buy the majority of their product in Oz.
People I know who play WHFB and 40K buy almost exclusively overseas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aspiring Champion wrote:Wells talks about loss of volume impacting on R&D etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but if I buy from Maelstrom isn't that a sale of GW product, and hence "volume"? Now they'll sell nothing instead. There's their loss of volume.

Hey Mark. I found them for you.

Aspiring Champion wins the thread.

GW needs to understand that if they keep their prices too high it will turn people off from starting in the hobby in the first place.

Aus., I feel for you. One word: Ebay. Even with shipping it should be a little savings, or more if you buy more boxes and consolidate packaging. Find a board member that has an account and talk them into putting in an order on a private auction.

I think the explanation is not unreasonable. For the slow, let me explain what Mr. Wells meant with the costs thing.

There are fixed costs associated with running the GW retail chain. Rent, power, salaries. GW has to pay these in AUD. Let's pick a number, say it costs 10.000 AUD to run a small store.

Three years ago, that was £5000. Today, those £5000 only get you 7500 AUD. But GW still needs to pay 10.000 AUD to rent the same store and pay the same wages.

If GW were to adjust prices down based on the new exchange rate, they would essentially reduce their income by 25% relative to their expenses unless, like Mr. Wells said, they also cut wages and somehow avoided paying rent.

Also, average Oz income is double that of the UK, so you can still buy exactly as much at local prices than the Brits can. What injustice...

I have a relatively decent income for my age bracket. The average income in the UK is apparenly about 22,800 pounds. That's AU$34,703.

That's roughly around the area I'm making (give or take, I forget how much exactly I make nowdays, keeps changing) definitely not double the income.

Wanna try a new argument?

So TL;DR is basically "we want to make pure, unjustified profit on the currency exchange rates and decided to f*** up anyone who sells out products using actual exchange rates".

Am I right?

Nice move, GW.

I just saw this on BoW, in short - does not compute.

Kudos points to Aspiring Champion.

I just think Mr Wells' problem isn't that he's only lost his marbles but is also a complete Moron.

So what about the complaints over the global price increase Mr Wells? Or did no one complain? (shrugs).

If they sell their products to their staff at HUGE discounts then their still making a profit on that. It's in their best interest to support these independent stores so people will buy their product in places like Australia - their GW Hobby Centre business model will not work in Aus or in America - these countries are simply too please do not attempt to get around the swear filter - Waaagh_Gonads big & their pursuit for global dominance is cutting out their rescources that should be going back into the hobby.

Surely they'd take such sales over none? I think they should hire a monkey as CEO - at least a monkey can grasp things a little better

He only beats us because we're bad.

CX316 wrote:I have a relatively decent income for my age bracket. The average income in the UK is apparenly about 22,800 pounds. That's AU$34,703.

That's roughly around the area I'm making (give or take, I forget how much exactly I make nowdays, keeps changing) definitely not double the income.

Wanna try a new argument?

I'm sorry you're making half of Oz's average wage.
http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/average-wages-australia.html

Question for Aussies, given the rise of the Australian dollar (or fall of the US dollar) are you seeing falling prices anywhere?

Fuel should certainly be going down.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Question for Aussies, given the rise of the Australian dollar (or fall of the US dollar) are you seeing falling prices anywhere?

Fuel should certainly be going down.

Oil barrels are still pegged to the US dollar.

Since news out of the EU is bad (relative), the dollar gained value and the price of oil went down.

Aussies should be paying less for transportation costs since their economy is doing fine too.

GW's argument for Australians is that the overhead for the stores requires the price? Is it that pure 'GW' stores just aren't that profitable? Would it be cheaper to just close down and allow independant hobby shops fill the void? I'm curious about this even in the US. I have never set foot in a GW store and I've been playing this game for 6 years and have 4 full armies. My local shop couldn't remain open on GW product alone but they also sell D&D, CCGs, board games, other miniature games, etc. and they are doing well. Are GW stores an idea that has outgrown it's usefulness?

Those figures are thrown off by our low population and the mining boom meaning there's tradesmen making ridiculous amounts of money for living away from home to work. My pay packet is far closer to what your average schleb is going to be taking home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WarOne wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Question for Aussies, given the rise of the Australian dollar (or fall of the US dollar) are you seeing falling prices anywhere?

Fuel should certainly be going down.

Oil barrels are still pegged to the US dollar.

Since news out of the EU is bad (relative), the dollar gained value and the price of oil went down.

Aussies should be paying less for transportation costs since their economy is doing fine too.

Fuel has gone up, most groceries have gone up, basically the only thing that has gone down thanks to the strong dollar is anything we manually bring in from overseas. The vast majority of stores refuse to pass on any savings from the strong dollar.

Just noticed almost 50 people 'like' this on Facebook.



Please sir may I have another?

They are just shooting themselves in the foot

They are just shooting themselves in the foot

Forget the Foot! This is full frontal lobe damage. Idiots

Miss Dee wrote:They are just shooting themselves in the foot

More like firing a minigun at their head at point blank range.

The only reason those 'naughty Euro wholesalers' were able to exploit the market was down to the insanely high prices being charged by GW in the Southern Hemisphere.

That fairly important point was not covered.

Also, no mention of the resin price hike and the plastics price hike.

1) As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centres and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centres run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us.



2) Where we don't have a Games Workshop Hobby Centre, we support local independent trade accounts. These businesses provide a convenient place for customers to buy our products close to where they live. We support these businesses with local customer service teams and warehouses to ensure customers have immediate access to our best selling products and new releases. Many customers discover the hobby this way.


3) While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.


Yours sincerely,



Mark Wells

Chief Executive

18 May 2011

1) And they do this by reducing store hours on days open, closing other days, and maintaining a 1 man staff at most times so that none of those are possible while still working the register as well as making sure no one walks off with free boxes under their shirts? Not really true outside of bunker-sized GW stores anymore for the most part with their recent cost saving measures.

2) And if you *DO* have a successful store, they'll consider opening up a competing one to put you out of business. My FLGS in the 90's was the very successful and simply the best store in the major metro area; GW had a single store in the state for most of that time. When they decided to open up a second store for the ENTIRE state, they opened up on the same road 3 minutes away from that store and the FLGS suddenly noticed delays in getting new releases that they never had before. The GW store would always have their new releases for sale on fridays in store while they were lucky to have theirs SHIPPED to them on fridays and arrive till the middle of the next week. Coincidence?

3) Don't the major internet traders (Wayland and Maelstrom) actually have physical stores as its a requirement to be a trade partner for GW? If they do, I'm sure they grow the hobby more locally than a 1-man limited hour store the size of a large bedroom. They may not do much for the local Oz Games Workshop Hobby (p.s. when did this become a capital letter proper noun?) but to say that they do *nothing* isn't being truthful either if they have a store.

All in all, this is pretty much what I expected as a response to internet talk/complaints. The only response GW cares about is a monetary one so vote with your wallets, people. Continue to support your local store and the hobby in general but just redirect your cash to companies that actually appreciate it. It may require more work and a little bit of sacrifice on your part (you won't be able to buy shiny new SPees MArineZ!) but simply complaining obviously doesn't do anything.

lord_blackfang wrote:
There are fixed costs associated with running the GW retail chain. Rent, power, salaries. GW has to pay these in AUD. Let's pick a number, say it costs 10.000 AUD to run a small store.

Three years ago, that was £5000. Today, those £5000 only get you 7500 AUD. But GW still needs to pay 10.000 AUD to rent the same store and pay the same wages.

If GW were to adjust prices down based on the new exchange rate, they would essentially reduce their income by 25% relative to their expenses unless, like Mr. Wells said, they also cut wages and somehow avoided paying rent.

Thanks for the explanation, that's basically what I was trying to wrap my head around. But something still seems off. Let me work it out here:


Say GW Australia's division years ago cost $10 million (AUS) a year in expenses (going to use very even numbers here for simplicity regardless of how outrageous they are), but they make $20 million (AUS) in sales a year, for a total profit of $10 million a year.

Now let's say back then the pound was double the AUS dollar. So it costs them £5 million pounds to run each year but they get back £10 million pounds for a profit of £5 million a year.

Of course, they obviously set the price of their product in AUS twice as high as they do in the UK to hit this mark. So if a Land Raider in the UK costs £30, then it costs $60 AUS but everyone is okay with that because it makes sense...if people in AUS were to mail order to the UK and buy a Land Raider, the currency exchange means they would be paying effectively the same price.

But now years later, the AUS dollar is now equal with the pound.

Assuming inflation hasn't changed anything, and they keep their prices 'locked in' regardless of exchange rates, then they're still paying $10 million AUS a year in costs and making $20 million in sales for a profit of $10 million AUS.

But with the change in exchange rates, that's now £10 million pounds in expenses with sales of £20 million pounds for a profit of £10 million pounds.

So doesn't that mean their profits have actually doubled in Australia by the Australian dollar gaining ground (if they keep their prices the same)? Shouldn't they be able to lower their prices and still be able to make the same profit they used to? Or am I screwing something obvious up here?


I just wonder how other companies handle similar situations? Obviously there have to be companies that have stores or factories in foreign countries. I certainly don't recall, for example, hearing about japanese cars made in the US having their prices adjusted because of changing exchange rates (but maybe I wasn't paying attention). Does that happen? Or do companies lock in their prices in foreign countries and then stick to that regardless of exchange rates?

Has the internet and the ease of small scale shipping made this a problem for industries like miniature gaming that don't exist for things that can't be easily shipped (like cars)? Is this part of the reason why electronic devices have region lock-outs built in, to allow companies to lock-in prices in certain regions without worrying about being undercut by themselves via private shipping from another country?


I'm just really curious to know how other companies who sell globally have handled this type of problem if anyone with any actual knowledge knows?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Just noticed almost 50 people 'like' this on Facebook.

I think you have to 'like' something on facebook to be able to comment on it (but I could be wrong).

pixxpixx wrote:Working in a relatively small franchise that sells video games, I sort of sympathise with GW. And I figured I'd thrown in my two cents and try to explain why I sort of agree with their decision and understand with what they're saying.

The easiest way I can explain it is showing my stores predicament...the disparity of the australian dollar is so big right now its ludicrous to buy video games anywhere else other than overseas retailers. This pretty much strangles smaller buisness's like ours that are doing the right thing by charging as little as we can for items but because of the massive cost difference for local as opposed to imported items it puts us between a rock and a hard place. Whats the REALLY frustrating part is that everyone thinks that because things are $30AUS from the states or UK is normal, and that us charging retail of $59 or $79 makes us ripoff merchants that deserve to go out of business. People need to understand this very basic fact.....most stores DON'T OVERCHARGE. We put the margins (sometimes less) on items because we are getting CHARGED more as retailers. Not only is it illegal for most retail chains and stores to sell things from overseas (esp. difficult for my sector as there is region coding to contend with) but we also have to deal with store costs, staff costs, and various other things.

GW is in the exact same boat as most small franchises, even though they are a global company. They are a very small niche product (in the grand scheme of things) where their intellectual property is their only assest. They have to pay for stores, staff and everything else like the rest of us small fry's, except they have a tiny minority of the community to capture. They don't do price hikes to pad thier pockets and fill their vaults, they raise prices because most people are biting the hand that feeds them and accuse them of being money hungry corporate types. Fact is, most companies don't do things like this unless its absolutely necessary, and I for one applaud them on at least being upfront and honest about their reasoning about it.

People rage quitting because of this I respect your reasoning and understand completely with your thinking. I wish you well. Just have a bit of foresight next time when the next big company rolls around and they start raising prices due to the amount of people trying to undermine their own products.

As a businessman I understand and sympathise with your situation as a retailer.

That said, game players require a variety of services such as browsing, purchasing, hobby advice and playing space.

Modern retailing technology that browsing and purchasing is often easier and cheaper over the internet.

Shops need to add value in the hobby advice and playing space areas, in order to add the value to attract customers.

While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.

There is no free-ride here, the independants selling to overseas markets are still buying the product from somewhere at the managed price, not magically pulling the product out of thin air.

By having independants being able to sell their product for them GW saves on shipping, advertising, and all that other jazz whilst still making money from the independant selling the product...

The free-ride is GW selling a product worth sub 20GBP for 62AUD, or the current equivalence of ~34 pounds.

When you work it out like that, hell thats why they've done it, the AU would easily have to be close to the lot of the R&D budget, being generous with shipping, they're making at least a 50% profit against the uk price alone, not taking into account for any markup they impose on home shores.

WarOne wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Question for Aussies, given the rise of the Australian dollar (or fall of the US dollar) are you seeing falling prices anywhere?

Fuel should certainly be going down.

Oil barrels are still pegged to the US dollar.

Since news out of the EU is bad (relative), the dollar gained value and the price of oil went down.

Aussies should be paying less for transportation costs since their economy is doing fine too.

Big fat NO.

Sorry guys. prices enver seem to 'fall' here for any reason other than in electronic stores before End of Financial Year Sales.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The only reason those 'naughty Euro wholesalers' were able to exploit the market was down to the insanely high prices being charged by GW in the Southern Hemisphere.

That fairly important point was not covered.

Also, no mention of the resin price hike and the plastics price hike.

Free market capitalism isnt "exploiting" anything in the market. They provided goods and services folks thought worth paying for.

GW is in a panic because the last sales quarter has been exceptionally poor.

The total figures are offset by IP sold on to FFG and revenue from computer games, all of which runs on the back of moneys harvested by competent persons outside their financial input, which explains why it works well.

GW retail is haemorraging, they don't understand how to take advantage of internet sale for themselves and there are too many overpaid unsackable dinosaurs eating up the gross.

add to that a layer of marketing who are focused on 'targets' i.e. very short term thinking and you have a shitstorm of incompetence and mismanagement.

yakface wrote: And now if they were to adjust their prices to make them relatively equal, they would not be able to maintain their infrastructure because they would be losing too much money.

My personal notice:

To whom it may concern:

I'm aware that there may be a new set of shipping policies, some that may affect users who buy from more then one source.
Apparently, You're [you the company] going to put a stop to that, by disallowing stores to sell your products abroad.
Is this the case
secondly: if so, why?
Its not like you're loosing out when the company drops its price by 50% just to compete.
I've no problem with going to My local GW if I need something quickly or don't want to wait, and you'd find I've only spent about $500 at my abroad store, whereas I've spent a metaphorical tonne [$3000+] at my Nearby Games workshop store.
Sure, this is over the course of three years.
Sure, in the big picture this isn't much.
But, I know that in the long run, you're doing yourself out of customers. [again, you the company.] people speak with their wallets as much as they do with their mouths. No long term gamer is going to put up with this. it is becoming ridiculous.
As a side note:
I compared prices across countries, your two major countries and our own.

Country
[sourced from the American, Australian and English gamesworkshop online stores, using your ground-zero - the tactical marine box.]

Why is Australia paying at least 70% or more more than other countries?
You can't honestly argue to me that this is reasonable? I'd understand us having maybe 30% more, but not so much as 90!



I'm fine with paying a large amount. I don't mind; its my hobby. I'm fine with the way in which the company runs its stores.
I don't care that you feel the urge to search my property to make sure I have a big black book and a dainty black one, or that when I've to systems, I need to have 4 books.
I didn't mind when you [the company] started enforcing my giving you [the company] free survey information.

However: this, this constant rate rise, this constant kick the customer in the shins and steal his wallet... it'll get to us.

and the longer you [the company] commit Total Customer F*ck, the more your vetrans, your staple; will leave, and you will crumble. [again, you, the company.]

As of now, I'm not sorry for anything I've said - Anyone who's anyone - even inside games-workshop - knows that this is just like shooting yourself in the foot.

I bow my head to you.

I've never known how to completely f*ck over a customer.
I think I've just learnt from the best.

Robin de Oliveira

PS:
Now that the price of oil has dropped again, can we see those 9-month old oil-related price rises drop? Thanks bro.

PPS:
I'll say, if you drop your prices to what they were in 2008, you'd see a large increase in income. - 5$ models was cheap, and none could deny you that.

I did have a table in there, and you managed to hit one of my points smack on the head. - Why the feth do we pay 70% or more more?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
did I miss anything out?

Fuel has gone up, most groceries have gone up, basically the only thing that has gone down thanks to the strong dollar is anything we manually bring in from overseas. The vast majority of stores refuse to pass on any savings from the strong dollar.

You've got to have competition to push any price drop, the oligopoly/monopoly we have in australia in terms of the supply of fuel means there is no motivation to decrease prices... theres no real regulation of prices... and in a free market, or in consumerism, profits is all anyone cares about and the only price drop will come from when a company sees that it can take some of its competitors customers.

GW is much the same boat, they have no competition, so why should they decrease their prices, just cause they're generous all round nice guys, sorry guys, business doesnt work like that.

Maelstrom and others have had the advantage of gaining some of the customers that normally would have gone to GW, and GW instead of lowering prices to be competitve have decided instead to restrict supply, cause after all we know the independants arnt selling their own product thereby not being truely competitive.

What needs to happen is some international laws to exist to protect consumers rights in these circumstances, local laws dont have the abilty to force change. With the advent of internet, and faster transport mediums, its all too easy to connect someone from australia to the uk or us, and GW has twigged on it and closed the gap.

I disagree with it being blamed on relative losses of income as i've said in my previous post, theres too many points where they gain some revenue from sales, just not as much as they'd like.

Call a spade, a spade, GW is a business and at the end of the day wants to maximise their profits. It might not be good for the end consumer but sad fact of reality is that unless their profits nose dive, this policy will not be reversed.

To echo every other sane protestor, dont buy their products, its the only way they'll hear your pain.

In Oz, a tactical squad costs 66 USD. That's a 66% mark up over US retail cost. How the feth do they justify that?

That's all I want to know.

Games Workshop is a CORPORATION.

Corporations are in business to make MONEY.

I'm not agreeing with anything that GW is doing whatsoever. But with inflation comes price increases. With changing currencies comes policy changes.

Corporations are NOT going to ever reduce their prices across the board in this day and age. Especially when they have a bottom line, and more specifically when they have people called STOCK HOLDERS who determine how the company operates with their decisions as purchasers of the company stock.

If you really want to make your money speak, purchase stock in the company, go to the meetings and speak your mind.

Holding back your wallets isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Those 14 year old boys aren't getting any younger, but sure as hell, the 10,11,12, and 13 year olds are there, ready to take their place as the buying public.

If they want to kill of the third world buyers, they will win this.

wallacethe5 wrote:If they want to kill of the third world buyers, they will win this.

Wow, another Malaysian. Apa khabar mate? Yeah, I really agree with you. I have an FLGS nearby, with decent prices, but even then I won't be buying any GW from them any time soon. Hope you have luck getting minis from elsewhere if you don't have an FLGS.

Swordwind wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:If they want to kill of the third world buyers, they will win this.

Wow, another Malaysian. Apa khabar mate? Yeah, I really agree with you. I have an FLGS nearby, with decent prices, but even then I won't be buying any GW from them any time soon. Hope you have luck getting minis from elsewhere if you don't have an FLGS.

WAH!!! Apa khabar? Everything good here. I stay in Sarawak at Miri. Studying at Curtin. How are you?

Which FLGS you normally go to? Here I have to drive into Brunei, pas t KB, Seria, than Bandar Seri Begawan, than into Muara. After that, go into limbang than back into brunei again through temburong. THAN back into Malaysia straight into sabah and drive all the way to KK to the only FLGS selling Warhammer on this island. Imagine, for the whole of Sabah and Sarawak... only one store I know... Just Wargames. Have to get passport chop twice

Those 14 year old boys aren't getting any younger, but sure as hell, the 10,11,12, and 13 year olds are there, ready to take their place as the buying public.

Not true. When the starter boxes were at $60.00 US dollars (which was the perfect price for newbies to get into the game) it sold additional material on the store.

At $90.00 US dollars, more often than not people bawk on a product that you have to put together and paint.

I do sympathies with my fellow gamers overseas as the price fluxuations are just killing the hobby.

As it has been said that people vote with their wallet. I do. I have disposable income but, I buy less and less product because of the price increases year after year after year.

From $2400 per year to $480 per year ($40 per month) and it is going to be a lot less in the near futrure.

I kinda see what's going on here, and I really don't think it's as malicious as everyone puts it. While his logic that online retailers don't support the hobby isn't exactly true, if what pixxpixx and lord blackfang are saying is correct (which I'm sure it is, I hope =p) then they're just trying to sustain the company.

Essentially, it's a love 'em or leave 'em scenario. While I won't say that GW is innocent in all of this, I really hope they try to re-capture the appeal that brought in all the people who are quitting.

For those who don't live in Australia, and even some who do, what needs to be realised is that EVERYTHING in Aus is more expensive. Including things like the cost of renting retail space. So our prices being a bit higher is not to be unexpected.

Most of our prices, on everything were set back when our dollar was at "normal" levels. Back then, the price difference was not so bad. These days, our dollar has increased to higher than the US's. This is a problem in more than just the miniatures industry. Anything that could be bought overseas will be cheaper, simply becuase the prices were set when our dollar was worth less.

As Mr Wells said, If the prices were simply cut in half, alot of damage would be done. The problem is that by blocking European sellers, the price has basically been doubled over night. The problem with both of these things is that they are extremes.

Instead of cutting everything by 50% in one go, maybe cut the price by 20%, over 2 or 3 years. This has the effect of not destroying retail stock value, and preventing damage to retailers.

The problem with a long term plan like this, is that it is difficult to predict what will happen with the value of our dollar. If GW did decrease the price and the value of the Aus dollar were to drop, they could be left with unprofitable stock, and a sudden increase in price, could damage their market.

Pricing goods in an international stage is not easy.

In regards to the letter, it is a bit insulting, but it is an explanation. For those calling GW out on the fact that this is just to increase profits, remember these 2 things:

GW is a company, and the goal of all companies is to make money.

A company cannot simply come out and say that they are increasing prices just to make more money. They have to rationalise it.

Adam LongWalker wrote:
At $90.00 US dollars, more often than not people bawk on a product that you have to put together and paint.

Be that as it may, the AOBR starter set is probably one of their best renditions of an introductory package for new players to get.

It comes with alot for that price.

Granted, it is going up in price from 90 USD, but the point is is that it is still a decent value.

While I am not affected by this turn of events, I have to say I'm even more angry about this than the recent price changes and silly repackaging and price gouging of metal models. This is an example of a company attempting to interfere with the free trade of goods among consumers and traders internationally. On one hand it's nice to actually get a response out of GW, but on the other hand, the response seems arrogant and insincere to say the least.

I don't buy the argument that discount retailers do not support the hobby. I say that they do support the hobby by offering a cheaper supply of miniatures to those who wish to expand their hobby. The FLGS and GW Hobby centers will still get money from the new customer and the occasional money from the veteran players. The hobby stores benefit from the veteran players being there on a regular basis to play games and promote the hobby by having games nights at the store. By having a gaming community at the hobby center, new players are more likely to walk in and make a purchase. How many new players make their initial purchase into the hobby from an internet discount retailer? I had no idea what the Warstore or Miniature Market was before being a part of the hobby for some time. While I make most of my larger purchases online, I make small, casual, or impulse purchases at the FLGS, as well as buying comics or the occasional new game there.

While GW is fully legally in the right to take actions such as this, morally it just doesn't sit well with me. Since when has GW become the defender of the common FLGS that they try to make themselves out to be here? I don't know the retail business from a shop owners perspective but I do know that my FLGS has had issues dealing with GW over the years, to the point that they considered dropping the line altogether at one point.

I hate to say this but this attempt to stifle free commerce is really making me consider leaving the hobby that I love. I've just spent a lot of money the last few months on building up a DE army, and have a lot more stuff on pre-order and feel like I don't want to play the game right now. I might pick up a box of Malifaux miniatures this week. Not that I intend to jump into the game but just to feel like I'm putting some of my miniature money into another company out of spite.

yakface wrote:

Has the internet and the ease of small scale shipping made this a problem for industries like miniature gaming that don't exist for things that can't be easily shipped (like cars)? Is this part of the reason why electronic devices have region lock-outs built in, to allow companies to lock-in prices in certain regions without worrying about being undercut by themselves via private shipping from another country?


I'm just really curious to know how other companies who sell globally have handled this type of problem if anyone with any actual knowledge knows?

None of this would be an issue in Australia if there weren't GW stores there. Leave it to the FLGS IMHO. Either way if people are buying GW is getting their pound of flesh. It's obvious from their statement that the stores are not that profitable if the rent and employee wages are their excuse for such a totalitarian distribution policy.

Congrats GW you have just killed your loyal fanbase more than ever. :Facepalm:

It's good to see some communication. That's a firm step in the right direction.

I am personally quite shocked that this announcement has had such an impact. (IE a response from GW) I wonder if in a few months it will all go back to the way it use to be. Maybe finally this is the tail spin?

All of my friends including me have stopped buying copious amounts of GW a long time ago. A few still buy dribs and drabs.

GW is a company, and the goal of all companies is to make money.

Maybe they should try and sell some stuff them? Australian RRP has passed the threshold of just being expensive a long time ago.. Currently its just plain crazy.

I do like how some believe that voting with the wallet will change GW, GW will never change, they will survive or they will just go under and have their IP sold.


EDIT for clarity

War One Wrote:

Granted, it is going up in price from 90 USD, but the point is is that it is still a decent value.

But compared to what? 90 US dollars to those already into 40K know that this is a good deal. But to new people that GW is trying to get into the hobby, that is too much money for unfinished plastic figures that you have to put together.

The new mentality of the younger audience is partly shaped by their peers and their peers will be playing something else than this.

Augustus5 Wrote:

While GW is fully legally in the right to take actions such as this, morally it just doesn't sit well with me. Since when has GW become the defender of the common FLGS that they try to make themselves out to be here? I don't know the retail business from a shop owners perspective but I do know that my FLGS has had issues dealing with GW over the years, to the point that they considered dropping the line altogether at one point.

I fully agree with this statement since I knew first hand about GW's heavy handiness to their indies in my region to the point of driving out all competition of selling product so only their game stores are selling product.

SickSix wrote:In Oz, a tactical squad costs 66 USD. That's a 66% mark up over US retail cost. How the feth do they justify that?

That's all I want to know.

One would assume that this is because the price is set in each economic area based upon average earnings in that area. Thus that Tactical box will be x% of Joe averages hourly pay in any country, certainly that has always been my assumption (sorry I don't believe that GW just arbitrarily sets prices, they are a successful company so i'll give them some credit).

Having seen the Australian and Canadian complaints over many years I have always assumed that most would understand this but there will always be people that complain about any given situation. Anyway this open letter (which make a fair amount of sense to me) has finally motivated me to do a little check on this. So here it is (rough and ready I grant you - I have tried to pro rata to a 2010/2011 price where old info was only found);

Ave. hour earnings;
UK - £11.52/hr (2005 figure increased 4.4% per annum) - NOoS
Canada - $24.81/hrCan (think this was the Can. Bureau of Statistics?)
US - $21.35/hrUS (US bureau of Statistics)
Aus - $32.20/hr (fulltime no- managerial - http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6306.0/)

Now using this information see attached (sorry no idea of how to show this directly in dakka) and working on the basis that there will be other numerable factors to take into account which will even out the figures if Joe Average Canuck, Yank, Aussie or Brit walked into their local GW the would all be paying about he same price.

What is happening here is GW are closing down a loophole that may have been very good for internet shoppers but was ultimately damaging sellers in Aus and the local hobby hobby there.

Sorry I'm not trying to piss on anyone's chips here, I would be unhappy at losing such an avenue as well, but this makes Mr Well's letter more understandable to me. It may not seem it but this will probably be better for the community in the long run (stronger FLGS presumably).

The price increase is a different story, and exchange rate profits are a quirk of international trade; as presumably would be losses if the reverse was true.

Note: the attached figure have been based upon a very brief search for info, so if anyne has something more accurate then I can revise this to suit.

Well, the fact that GW felt and obligation to responds means one thing to me: they know that it was a wrong move and they feel they have crossed a line. No matter how they sugar-coat it, it's really lies. What they want is to profit from currency variation by forcing us to buy locally in local currency. If they really cared that much about "not eroding the customer base", they would at the very least have adjusted the local prices accordingly. In the last two years the Pound has lost about 10% in regards to the Canadian $. Yet, I still pay a lot more. Can they justify that ordering a box of GKs from GW Canada is 35% more expensive (33.5CDN$-VAT included from GW UK vs 45CDN$-local taxes included from GW Canada!!!)? Heck, can they justify that, even though our dollars are at parity for more than 3 years, there is ALSO 20% difference (before any taxes) between GW US and GW Canada!? What, because they "prevent eroding the customer base" by maintaining a tiny GW Store in one of the most expensive mall downtown Montreal(I know, I used to own a store there)?

Oh, and please let's not compare "Minimum Wage". Let's compare "net income". Because yes, minimum wage is about 10$ here, compared to 7.25$ in the US. But our taxes are a lot higher, so I actually keep less in my pocket...

Please, let's not be fooled by the "We are so kind because we take time to answer" charade. It's probably written by the same lawyers who justified the BP spill by letting us know that BP was a friendly company trying to share the oil with Mother Nature.

It's really sad...

Phil

I intentionally didn't use minimum wage as it is not really relevant to a luxury good (it would have been a damn sight easier to get figures though ).

Having said that one would expect the minimum wages for the respective areas to produce similar ratios though.

I am blown away by that average wage.. It says to me that the number of unskilled people in my country must be pretty low... $32 feth.. People gotta stop lying on those stat forms. Alternatively stupid miners jacking up the average..

Also you know you haven't had to use excel in some time when you have to download compatibility stuff just to open something.. haha.

EDIT oh yeah boreas I forgot about taxes..

Why is everything twice as expensive in australia? I can't really think of a non commodity that isn't at least 50% more (accounting for exchange) there relative to the US.

"European internet traders"

Way to go painting everyone with the same brush ya fethstick. Maelstrom has a massive store with over 100 tables, all designed to foster and build 'the hobby'. You, Wells, can just go feth yourself sir.

Your excuses are nothing but lazy bs.




[EDIT]: Yay! Beat the filter. Editing now...

notprop wrote:
Ave. hour earnings;
UK - £11.52/hr (2005 figure increased 4.4% per annum) - NOoS
Canada - $24.81/hrCan (think this was the Can. Bureau of Statistics?)
US - $21.35/hrUS (US bureau of Statistics)
Aus - $32.20/hr (fulltime no- managerial - http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6306.0/)

While I appreciate (A LOT) the effort to introduce some actual, reality-based, numbers into this discussion, please note that the mean hourly wage (which is what you quoted for the US, at least) doesn't necessarily tell you a whole lot. The mean hourly wage includes CEOs and other billionaires, so the mean wage doesn't tell you what kind of income the vast majority of people shopping for GW product actually make. I'm sure that Mark Zuckerberg finds GW product reasonably priced. That doesn't help the rest of us.

The median hour earning for the US is $16.27, over $5 less than the mean you cited. If everybody in the US shopped at GW, half of those customers would be making less than $16.27 an hour, and the other half more.

spyfunk wrote:Games Workshop is a CORPORATION.

Corporations are in business to make MONEY.

I'm not agreeing with anything that GW is doing whatsoever. But with inflation comes price increases. With changing currencies comes policy changes.

Corporations are NOT going to ever reduce their prices across the board in this day and age. Especially when they have a bottom line, and more specifically when they have people called STOCK HOLDERS who determine how the company operates with their decisions as purchasers of the company stock.

If you really want to make your money speak, purchase stock in the company, go to the meetings and speak your mind.

Holding back your wallets isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Those 14 year old boys aren't getting any younger, but sure as hell, the 10,11,12, and 13 year olds are there, ready to take their place as the buying public.

If no one buys the overpriced goods then it doesn't matter what cost savings you make, you are heading for zero profits.
Shareholders don't like zero profits as it makes their cream curdle.
Selling starter sets to kiddies is not viable long term as they realise the hobby costs too much to continue. Unless GW just aim to pump out starter sets from here til the final trump.
Which I believe is today.

The stock market hasn't a clue what is going on and if they did the share price might take a tumble.
So actually holding back on the wallet is going to have an effect.

"Greed is Good!"


We only did this because of our fans......

Please don't attach non wargaming pictures to Dakka. Thanks. reds8n

Double standard much?

Notprop

I do understand where you are coming from with your monetary statistic from however:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/17/news/economy/recession_lost_generation/index.htm?section=money_latest

No Jobs means no money. Underemployment = less disposible income.

Now of late there has been a upswing of hiring which has been "promoted" greatly by the talking heads of our government.

But grandfather, who was a very wise and wealthy man from the depression era once stated to me.

"Statics are for losers. They can be manipulated to suit a persons needs. What counts is what you show the government, what you show your business associates and what books you keep for yourself".

He also said to me "Use your wealth wisely for it takes one fleeting moment to become dead broke and homeless".

I have learned most of my lessons from my grandfather while keeping tabs on what are the goings on in my sphere of influence.


Mark Wells did his part and posted a politically correct comment on the goings on with Games Workshop, and I will state this again. In my Opinion Wells is only the talking head for Kirby. Kirby continues to run the show for Games Workshop.

And his bottom line is his stock holdings when he retires from the board.

Games Workshop will continue to tightening up all sources of monetary revenue as their customer base in this hobby declines.

There is always discount stores and ebay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing that so urks me is FW not doing Sons of Medusa
sooner in december they said yes. now its dont know.

Thalor wrote:GW's argument for Australians is that the overhead for the stores requires the price? Is it that pure 'GW' stores just aren't that profitable? Would it be cheaper to just close down and allow independant hobby shops fill the void?

That right there is something I've never understood about GW. Having been to Battle Bunkers and Hobby Centers, they're nice, but they're not that great. I've been to much bigger independent retailers that have nicer locations, nicer tables and nicer staff.

Orlanth wrote:GW retail is haemorraging, they don't understand how to take advantage of internet sale for themselves and there are too many overpaid unsackable dinosaurs eating up the gross.

It's hemorrhaging because they're investing too much into their retail stores. How much is rent in high populations areas like California? Other coastal states? Before the housing bubble pop in California rent for a two bedroom apartment was averaging $2000+ in the San Francisco Bay. I can rent a four bedroom house in the Midwest for $400-$600. Granted, the Midwest is no California, but the cost of living is much cheaper.

GW needs to abandon their brick and mortar stores. They're not needed. I don't see Wizards of the Coast having their own brick and mortars. Nor does Battlefront Miniatures (FOW).

spyfunk wrote:Games Workshop is a CORPORATION.

Corporations are in business to make MONEY.

They are a small corporation with a small niche market in the global economy. They're business practices are borderline Shylock (reference: Merchant of Venice). Sorry Aussies, it looks like you're having to pay the pound of flesh for massively skewed business practices.

Thought: If GW abandoned their failing brick and mortars, how much more would their profit be? How much could they reduce costs and pass the savings to their customers?

How much could they reduce costs and pass the savings to their customers?

Why would they do that and break the habit of a lifetime?

Would it be cheaper to not have the GW stores and set up warehouses where they deliver to FLGS, instead? Just curious...because it does seem like having the GW stores are a problem. I always read on DakkaDakka about GW stores being opened and then, just as many if not more, stores being closed...that really can not be cheap overall.

While it was surprising to get a response on one issue, the silence is deafening on the main point; why the ever increasing high prices? Its alright saying that internet retailers are depriving shops in the southern hemisphere potential sales but if no-one can afford to buy them on the high street what exactly is the point? Accusing northern internet retailers of damaging the hobby is laughable. The only damage being done is by YOU, GW.

yakface wrote:I'm just really curious to know how other companies who sell globally have handled this type of problem if anyone with any actual knowledge knows?

The company I work for deals w/ this on a daily basis and there can be wide discrepancies between prices in various market areas. It is something that we have taken note of any have been working on some tools to benchmark and manage our pricing structures around the world. I should point out that we are NOT retail...industrial equipment.

That being said, I view pricing as a function of what the market will bear versus the ability of our supply chain to meet our targeted margins. On top of that, we through in SGA (costs of doing business). There is no doubt that we can command higher premiums in Australia that the USA, however, we also have higher SGA and COGS which, to some degree, account for the higher prices. From my perspective any sales outlet that required one to double their selling price, where there were other lower cost options available would not be considered. This isn't always clear-cut as one needs to consider the effectiveness of the other vehicles to market and can be very subjective.

However, the fact that indie retailer in the UK can purchase and ship globally, and offer significant discounts at the same retail price they'd offer locally (ie they're not increasing their discounts for global sales), suggests to me that GW's pricing structure has little to do with actual "costs", but far more to do with what they feel the market can/will/should bare.

I think the other piece they've missed is the fact that countries without a direct GW presence or effective local representation (again subjective) now have much fewer options...a choice that will likely reduce sales.

These issues are very complex and typically have a lot of different drivers. Ultimately, future sales will dictate the effectiveness of this policy change.

AJC

notprop wrote:

SickSix wrote:In Oz, a tactical squad costs 66 USD. That's a 66% mark up over US retail cost. How the feth do they justify that?

That's all I want to know.

One would assume that this is because the price is set in each economic area based upon average earnings in that area. Thus that Tactical box will be x% of Joe averages hourly pay in any country, certainly that has always been my assumption (sorry I don't believe that GW just arbitrarily sets prices, they are a successful company so i'll give them some credit).

Having seen the Australian and Canadian complaints over many years I have always assumed that most would understand this but there will always be people that complain about any given situation. Anyway this open letter (which make a fair amount of sense to me) has finally motivated me to do a little check on this. So here it is (rough and ready I grant you - I have tried to pro rata to a 2010/2011 price where old info was only found);

Ave. hour earnings;
UK - £11.52/hr (2005 figure increased 4.4% per annum) - NOoS
Canada - $24.81/hrCan (think this was the Can. Bureau of Statistics?)
US - $21.35/hrUS (US bureau of Statistics)
Aus - $32.20/hr (fulltime no- managerial - http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6306.0/)

Now using this information see attached (sorry no idea of how to show this directly in dakka) and working on the basis that there will be other numerable factors to take into account which will even out the figures if Joe Average Canuck, Yank, Aussie or Brit walked into their local GW the would all be paying about he same price.

What is happening here is GW are closing down a loophole that may have been very good for internet shoppers but was ultimately damaging sellers in Aus and the local hobby hobby there.

Sorry I'm not trying to piss on anyone's chips here, I would be unhappy at losing such an avenue as well, but this makes Mr Well's letter more understandable to me. It may not seem it but this will probably be better for the community in the long run (stronger FLGS presumably).

The price increase is a different story, and exchange rate profits are a quirk of international trade; as presumably would be losses if the reverse was true.

Note: the attached figure have been based upon a very brief search for info, so if anyne has something more accurate then I can revise this to suit.

This analysis is right on target, and this is how these decisions are made. Whether their products should be as expensive as they are is up for debate, but they are trying to keep them roughly even in all the areas they serve. The internet tends to throw all this off, as one of the other posters pointed out in his line of business, unless manufacturers take a hard line on sales territories.

It would be interesting to see what an Australian independent game store makes of this, as presumably Australians we can empathize with a local small business owner more than the evil limey corporation intent on screwing them?

The letter is what is technically termed- B.S.


All it is is a feeble attempt at damage control. Expect more, film at 11. Explaination was texbook PR, wouldn't have expected anything less.

Now that he has only provoked and incited more response, I'd expect it to hit the Board of Directors by Monday. They are going to need to be made aware that thier going to be losing some customers and more importantly profit here in the next month or so.

Pff, seen the last BoW show? simple progression puts standard army boxes at 118 pounds by 2015.

odmiller wrote:
It would be interesting to see what an Australian independent game store makes of this, as presumably Australians we can empathize with a local small business owner more than the evil limey corporation intent on screwing them?

I was thinking about this as well. How are the FLGS stores in Aus seeing this overall? I would think they are glad as that puts them in a better position now compared to the Internet stores out of country. Overall I still cannot fathom this move. If GW's overhead is so grossly out of control in Aus, it seems the better solution is to close their stores and supply chains and allow the FLGS' to do the work. Still it doesn't resolve the base issue of GW's product being grossly overpriced.

Many years ago, I went into a FLGS situated in a local mall that was getting rid of all it's GW merchandise. This was over 10 years ago. I picked up lots of Chaos stuff as I was thinking of starting an army at that time. I remember the manager remarking the reason she was letting all of it go was because she was through with GW's policies on her placing orders. I don't know what the rub exactly was but it was obviously enough she was done with supplying their product. Obviously I thought nothing of it at that time, seeing as how I just purchased a huge amount of Chaos at about 50% off MSRP. But over the years I think about this one situation more and more especially as I'm now more aware of GW's business practices.

GW clearly is stating they cannot afford their footprint in Australia.

Solution for GW: Take your retail presence out of Oz for awhile, let the hobby flourish on it's own. Come back when you can afford to do business there again. Stop trying to tell people you being there is for their own good, they grew the hobby there for years on their own - they can do it again. Let them buy from who they want to buy from and stop acting like a whiney bxtch about it.

We live in an era of world trade, GW is not the only company that gets to deal with that. Every other retailer out there gets to deal with the same issues and you don't see them punching their customers in the nuts and trying to play "Trade Federation Blockade" with their products. Then again, they're not out there legally threatening everyone who even remotely competes with them either.

People can play the numbers game if they want to - the hell with it, go ahead - but the net result is GW makes ridiculous profits on their stuff anyways and they can afford to leave the southern hemisphere retail sector alone for a few years and let those guys handle this on their own. It's not like the GW store is even making much of a difference anyways.

Sad part is all theese letters do is assume that all gamers are idiots.

As a practiced retail cost accountant I know for a fact that GW does not need to charge the drastically over-inflated price they are charging. Even using base cost models for operating stores (because I'm relatively sure they don't have manufacturing costs there) in AU there is no reason for them not to frequently adjust their costs when it comes to currency pairity. Not to mention the fact that to me it should be classified as unfair business practices to only ever adjust up and never down for currency shifts.

But its not illegal and greed makes the world go round. I just wish for once we could get a company that just admits it's being greedy instead of assuming we're all bumbling morons.

The fact that they responded means they see and finally saw some pressure. While the response is still pushing aside all the issues -- it shows that GW as a company is and can react.

The next step is to make it more well known that people will cease buying product.

Im a biologist, not an economics or buisness major so much of what GW is doing is a mystery to me but....And its a Big But. They have raised their prices and keep raising their prices. I love 40k but my wages are not getting raised as fast as GW is raising prices. Its an arms race that i cannot keep up with.

FOr now i am going to pursue my options. I enjoy playing 40k. I have four armies that are fairly robust. I no longer need to keep buying stuff. If i do need stuff i can buy it used off of ebay and then strip it and re paint. My orks which no longer are of interest to me can go up on E bay. Any money i make frommy greenskins i can reinvest into used 4ok models.

For now there are no other systems that are widespread or enjoyable enough for me to stop playing 40k. However i am under no delusions that GW is really investing all that much in their developement centers. Compare 40k models to those made by Italeri and there is no question that Italeri makes a far more detailed model for the price. Hopefully GW comes around soon. More and more people are threatening to quit 40k and I enjoy it in part because of its robust following. Take home message. Befor you ragequit, just stop buying new product for now.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Question for Aussies, given the rise of the Australian dollar (or fall of the US dollar) are you seeing falling prices anywhere?

Fuel should certainly be going down.

Not what you asked, but in Canada at least, the price of most entertainment goods has dropped as our dollar went up. For example, comic books are now US cover price, videogames went from about $69 to $59, and electronics like iPods and the like are within 5% or so of the US prices.

Petrol fluctuates, but its price remains somewhat higher than US prices due to a number of local factors (taxes and lack of competition amongst suppliers, chiefly).


GW still remains around 20% higher for us. I would imagine Australia has it similar.

sennacherib wrote:Im a biologist, not an economics or buisness major so much of what GW is doing is a mystery to me but....And its a Big But. They have raised their prices and keep raising their prices. I love 40k but my wages are not getting raised as fast as GW is raising prices. Its an arms race that i cannot keep up with.

FOr now i am going to pursue my options. I enjoy playing 40k. I have four armies that are fairly robust. I no longer need to keep buying stuff. If i do need stuff i can buy it used off of ebay and then strip it and re paint. My orks which no longer are of interest to me can go up on E bay. Any money i make frommy greenskins i can reinvest into used 4ok models.

For now there are no other systems that are widespread or enjoyable enough for me to stop playing 40k. However i am under no delusions that GW is really investing all that much in their developement centers. Compare 40k models to those made by Italeri and there is no question that Italeri makes a far more detailed model for the price. Hopefully GW comes around soon. More and more people are threatening to quit 40k and I enjoy it in part because of its robust following. Take home message. Befor you ragequit, just stop buying new product for now.

This.

GW is getting no more money out of me for the forseeable future. I'll continue to play the game with what I have, but Mark Wells, if you're reading this take your head out your own backside and you can shove another of your own appendages up that orifice for all I care. I hope your company dies.

Mantic, the time is NOW to get that kick ass Sci Fi line going!

If he is reading this with his head up his arse that is a jolly good trick!

Mark Wells. contortionist extortionist

Grimtuff wrote:Mantic, the time is NOW to get that kick ass Sci Fi line going!

Well, as much as I love Mantic and am myself an independent producer (see signature), I don't see much of a possibility to do wh40k-compatible miniatures without stepping on GW's branded and reserved designs. Not all the armies, so there of course are a few exceptions and companies trying to use that (Kromlech and MaxMini with their modern and sci-fi orcs, we at Bitsbox are working on some nice daemonic stuff). But the most popular and therefore profitable armies -- all space marines, imperial guard, both eldar -- are extremely hard to do without IP "collision". Well, IG might be doable, but try to do a SM or Eldar miniature that's basically not a GW-miniature ripoff.

Tomash wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:Mantic, the time is NOW to get that kick ass Sci Fi line going!

Well, as much as I love Mantic and am myself an independent producer (see signature), I don't see much of a possibility to do wh40k-compatible miniatures without stepping on GW's branded and reserved designs. Not all the armies, so there of course are a few exceptions and companies trying to use that (Kromlech and MaxMini with their modern and sci-fi orcs, we at Bitsbox are working on some nice daemonic stuff). But the most popular and therefore profitable armies -- all space marines, imperial guard, both eldar -- are extremely hard to do without IP "collision". Well, IG might be doable, but try to do a SM or Eldar miniature that's basically not a GW-miniature ripoff.

Thing is, they're supposedly annoucing it at GenCon this year, so time will tell. I would think as long as you stay away from the MOAR SKULLZ fetish that GW has, then these can easily be produced as generic Sci Fi stuff that just "happen" to fit with GW's lines, in addition to having their own game to go with.

Da Butcha wrote:

notprop wrote:
Ave. hour earnings;.....................................

While I appreciate (A LOT) the effort to introduce some actual, reality-based, numbers into this discussion, please note that the mean hourly wage (which is what you quoted for the US, at least) doesn't necessarily tell you a whole lot. The mean hourly wage includes CEOs and other billionaires, so the mean wage doesn't tell you what kind of income the vast majority of people shopping for GW product actually make. I'm sure that Mark Zuckerberg finds GW product reasonably priced. That doesn't help the rest of us.

The median hour earning for the US is $16.27, over $5 less than the mean you cited. If everybody in the US shopped at GW, half of those customers would be making less than $16.27 an hour, and the other half more.

Sorry mate, but all of these figures also include this except the Aus one which used a lower figure but that actually reinforces the result. i.e. that Aus paying no more than anyone else.

Ok, I kind of get the argument... it's expensive to run retail in Oz... but I can't believe shutting down access to internet retailers will make a massive difference either way.

It's a bit like Hollywood producers crying that internet piracy is killing the film industry and yet the kind of big movies that people would download off the internet (e.g Lord of the Rings) still rake in the chips at the box office.

Flashman wrote:
It's a bit like Hollywood producers crying that internet piracy is killing the film industry and yet the kind of big movies that people would download off the internet (e.g Lord of the Rings) still rake in the chips at the box office.

Yup, here's one for you: The highest grossing film of 2008 (The Dark Knight) was also the most downloaded. Go figure.

I don't know---it seems like a contradiction to me. For example;

Right now they are gaining sales from Australia via UK/US retailers
Their stated goal is to give up those sales in order to build a player base in Australia
Yet they do not lower their profit margin (and prices) in the Australian market

I would think that either you give up on the Australian market or take it serious (and lower your farking profit margin to adjust for currency). Right now---it seems like the worst of both worlds---deny your customers access to reasonable priced products---and deny any local gaming shops help in pricing (to establish a gaming base as he states is their intention).

Also telling he didn't address the price raises over the past few years or their profit margin per product either.

Mantic/PP/FOW must be grinning though.

Flashman wrote:Ok, I kind of get the argument... it's expensive to run retail in Oz... but I can't believe shutting down access to internet retailers will make a massive difference either way.

It's a bit like Hollywood producers crying that internet piracy is killing the film industry and yet the kind of big movies that people would download off the internet (e.g Lord of the Rings) still rake in the chips at the box office.

I would suggest that it is no more expensive to run a games store anywhere; but if (as a FLGS) no one is buying because getting from the UK is cheaper that you can buy for wholesale then why support a company (GW) that lets this happen to you. GW products will (presumably have) dry up in FLGS and WH40K will become hardly available any 40K communities there will also dry up.

Maelstrom and the like can carry on without Aus as the European market is big enough for them.

yakface wrote:And I do think that makes sense in that when you lower prices, you're still having to pay the same cost to produce and ship the miniatures so even if your sales increase because you lower prices you're getting less of a margin on those increased sales, so in order to net the same amount of money (or more) you have to dramatically increase sales, and clearly GW doesn't think that slashing the prices would do that (whether that's right or wrong, I have no idea).

The joy of being a large, sprawling corporation is that every territory you cover doesn't have to be as profitable as the others. While you should certainly be pushing for better sales everywhere, the general principle is that the more profitable areas subsidise the less profitable ones.

On a slightly smaller scale, if you go back 10 or 15 years the two biggest supermarket chains here in OZ used a 'grading' system for their stores, with different pricing depending on the grade of the store, based on the economic make-up of the area the store was in. It was eventually dropped, and prices standardised because it pissed people off. What they found, unsurprisingly enough, was that people in suburbs with higher-priced stores just went to the lower-priced store the next suburb over.

GW could learn something from that. The answer to people being upset with your pricing disparity is not to tell them that they should suck it up for the good of your company.

All of this is actually making sense to me, except that what GW *should* be doing, is to announce a SLIGHT price reduction in Australia, with promises that the prices will continue to drop over time until they are closer to the true global exchange rate....

That, or what I think I suggested in another thread, which was a slight price drop followed by a 'freeze' on price rises for a few years to let the rest of the world catch up.


I particularly like the idea that their chosen model for growing the 'Games Workshop Hobby' is the only possible way for it to happen. I wonder if Mr Wells has any idea of just how spread out the population of Australia is, and how many of our gamers have never set foot in a gaming store due to not actually having one anywhere within reach?

Donald Trump would make the perfect CEO replacement for GW.
(JK)
GW is going losing its fan base faster than Eplitic at an auction.

insaniak wrote:
I particularly like the idea that their chosen model for growing the 'Games Workshop Hobby' is the only possible way for it to happen. I wonder if Mr Wells has any idea of just how spread out the population of Australia is, and how many of our gamers have never set foot in a gaming store due to not actually having one anywhere within reach?

I've had the good fortune to host a variety of people from the UK visiting Canada. Almost all were unable to fully understand the notion that the next population centre with 100,000 or more people was 3-5 hours from where they were in the prairies.

People keep raising the issue of average wages being high in Oz.

Like the rest of the world GW pays much, much less than average wage to the vast majority of its workers.

They sacked a heap of their workers a few years ago, closed the GWOZ studion, closed down games day (returning this year) closed unprofitable stores, and jacked the prices up, despite Australias currency position ensuring they were getting more profit for the same product.

I haven't looked for a couple years but GWOZ was always profitable, every year making a modest profit. Something was working well. The US at that time was a basketcase and was losing GW huge amounts of money.

Is there not something to be said for a strategic plan in Aus, to accept that the margins may be lower, but still maintain a presence there.

They cannot sustain their present policies in the Australian market, if a relatively widely dispersed gaming population gets ever thinner because fewer players can afford the hobby.
GW's only response to such a situation appears to be whack the prices up again.

While it has been said there is not a viable alternative game to GW, that may not always be the case. There is always the possibility that, because of falling sales down under, GW will not be able to continue there, and someone else will step in.

efarrer wrote:

insaniak wrote:
I particularly like the idea that their chosen model for growing the 'Games Workshop Hobby' is the only possible way for it to happen. I wonder if Mr Wells has any idea of just how spread out the population of Australia is, and how many of our gamers have never set foot in a gaming store due to not actually having one anywhere within reach?

I've had the good fortune to host a variety of people from the UK visiting Canada. Almost all were unable to fully understand the notion that the next population centre with 100,000 or more people was 3-5 hours from where they were in the prairies.

They are big countries with small populations however Australia and Canada are both highly urbanised, with over 80% of the population living in the large cities.

Sydney, for example, has 4.5 million people. That's larger than anywhere in the UK except London.

I find it hard to believe that GW are reliant on the under 20% of the population who live more than an hour or so travel from an urban centre.

Why is it these people cannot get on the internet to order stuff? Especially now that GW don't stock most of their own lines in the shops, so you have to order most things anyway.

As well as that, small communities (we could be talking about tens of thousands, not hamlets with four houses) either won't support a gaming scene at all, or will support a small but tight one.

To me it sounded like they are saying that because of the free things in store it means that they have to charge ridiculas prices for gaming and if that is true why don't they charge for the free services meaning that they can lower the price and still get money plus everyone will be happy about the price meaning that they will get more sales....one minute its game workshop scrape that Idea;charge £10 for one pot of paint that should do it even if it means that they will only get one customer.

I am mixed on all this. While I do not like the diferrences in prices and limitation of trade, I really don't blame GW. They are a company and they have to do what they must to stay profitable. If they do not, then they will have to close. That alternative is less apealling to me than higher prices.

What I am really concerned about is what will happen when the Dollar crashes. Our currency is wurth 20% less today than a couple years ago and we are still putting more money into the economy. Its only going to get worse. Food prices in the US have gone up 3-6% this year and gas is hovering at $4 a gallon. All goods in the US are starting to see "fuel surcharges" on deliveries of goods. If the US does not take care of the 14 trillion dollar debt, things are only going to get worse.

I blame my own contries lack of fiscal responsibility and it's treatment of the dollar as the real root cause to all of this. The sooner we get our house in order, the sooner currencies level out and become more stable.

I like how he says people are "taking advantage of the exchange rates". Look yourself in the mirror bro.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:People keep raising the issue of average wages being high in Oz.

Like the rest of the world GW pays much, much less than average wage to the vast majority of its workers.

Um, it's not about how much GW pays its employees, it's about how much stuff an average Joe can buy with his hard-earned money.

You (a general "you" not You you) complain that you pay double just because of where you live.

You have twice the salary but demand equal prices. That essentially means that you want to be able to buy twice as much stuff for the same amount of work hours clocked in. Just because of where you live.

Charging based on average wage sounds eminently fair to me, but then again I'm a dirty commie.

My 2 cents are that the Aus dollar vs the pound hasn't changed that much in the past few years. As an Australian I understand that in the time of the tall ships it was harder to get things to this country that is no longer the case. I worked for GW for 7 years and can tell you when the pond was 3 times the value of the Aus dollar we actual payed less for our products than the people in England. There was a decision by our head office back in the day to bring our prices "into alinement" with England when this was a price rise it was all good. the costs of running businesses in Australia are not twice that of running them in other countries and while yes there are higher fees and chargers in Aus our local GW just closed down because no one bought there anymore except 10 year olds. My friends and I buy about $6000 worth of GW each year and that would have amounted to about 1% of the gross of the store that just shut down. I still love the Games and Miniatures of GW after 19 years in the Hobby and I don't want to swap game systems I think If GW Aus is being this badly mis-manged then they should get ride of the people at the top who are doing the mis-management not insult the customers intellect.

Further more I believe that at this time GW wont really feel the pinch anymore than they have in the past however as my friends kids grow up I can see the day coming when they hit 10 and their parents are internet savie. They will see the product in the shops then look online and go hey I'm getting ripped off lets not bye from there anymore. I agree that GW Aus can't cut the cost in half over night the truth is they shouldn't have let it get this far out of whack. They shouldn't have kept raising their prices as the value of our dollar increased or at the very least should have factored this into the price rise (lord knows there been enough of them) instead of just going pound x3.

This is just madness. My friends are buying less and less GW products and as a result we are playing alot less.

Now with the ban on buying overseas..... I can afford the price increases but I need everyone in our gaming group to be able to as well.

If long term hobbiests are not what you want and are a drain, so be it.

Me and my mates all put in big orders (overseas) to finish our armies before the ban kicks in.

That will see me out as I have several armies now.

My hobby is more dependant on mature gamers playing at each others houses as mates, than GW stores.

If my mates stop playing as they get priced out of the hobby, we will move to something else.

In short spending time with my mates is more important than playing with GW.

Its sad that they are killing our hobby.

The business needs to survive but so does its gamers.

On the bright side, the Warhammer license is really influential with thousands of people with Citadel Miniatures, 40k Video Games, or at least knowledge of the universes.

If something catastrophic does happen to Games-Workshop with their unsustainable policies, they can sell off the IP to another company.

To be honest, I really look forward to buying Jes Goodwin's Craftworld Eldar miniatures being sold by Privateer Press in 2015. Maybe then the game will be balanced. Maybe Eldrad Ulthran will have a nice stat card.

I'm amused by this thread and the reaction from the community in general.

GW makes a decision a lot of folks don't like (understandable.) The masses take to the electronic streets of Facebook, pitchforks and torches in hand prepared to give the evil empire what for, somehow thinking their actions will have some sort of impact. The lord of the castle comes forward and says "this is how it is, sorry." and goes back to his castle. The masses, somehow stunned at the response now stand in the streets trying to figure out what to do next being as their rage has yet to be sated.

To those promising to rage quit - I disbelieve. I've worked in sales long enough to know that even when there are other outlets for you and you're dissatisfied, 99% of you will talk a big game and then never truly commit (by commit I mean sell of all your stuff and never play another game or even post about GW in the future) Yeah, you might not buy product for a while. You may even quit the game for a few years. In the end though, you'll be back. Why? Because in the end it is still a quality product, the games are fun and quite simply, there's no guarantee the company you flock to for a new outlet in gaming won't at some point do something similar with their pricing or policies.

For those that think the response from GW is an outright lie or at the very least just something to appease the masses - what did you expect? What exactly did you want to hear? If the response had directly addressed some of your other concerns, would your reaction be any different? If they had just come out and said "You are sheep. You will continue to buy product and support us and we know it so have a nice day."(which is exactly what some folks think the letter said anyway) would that change your opinion? Probably not.

Finally, if you really think GW is just a huge money grubbing machine - exactly what do you consider an unreasonable amount of profit for a company to make? GW made a whopping 12.7% profit last year. Is that unreasonable? That means if GW had $100 budget last year they had a return of almost $13. How hard would you work for $13 over the course of a year? By comparison, Hasbro (those folks that own WoTC) are at about 11%. Where are the cries of anguish to lower the prices for D&D and MTG stuff?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:People keep raising the issue of average wages being high in Oz.

Like the rest of the world GW pays much, much less than average wage to the vast majority of its workers.

Um, it's not about how much GW pays its employees, it's about how much stuff an average Joe can buy with his hard-earned money.

You (a general "you" not You you) complain that you pay double just because of where you live.

You have twice the salary but demand equal prices. That essentially means that you want to be able to buy twice as much stuff for the same amount of work hours clocked in. Just because of where you live.

Charging based on average wage sounds eminently fair to me, but then again I'm a dirty commie.

The problem is that GW is not part of a communist economy. They are not giving their products to people who are out of work for example. In my opinion they are just trying to bleed dry the people that have money. In the USA, a small fraction of the population earn more than half of the total earnings. It is rich folks like these that GW is targeting with its prices and policies. I think that GW will find that they cannot function without cash from regular joes and these people will not buy their products at their current prices.

I think GWs claim that it is expensive to do business in Australia is bunk. GW has many advantages over small FLGS which operate in Australia. GW is a large corporation and thus can spread the cost of accountants etc over their entire corporation. They also take all of the profit from the sale of an item, while FLGS essentially give GW a cut. I think that GW is probably just managed very poorly. Sending their entire US staff to Las Vegas four times a year is a perfect example. I suspect that there are plenty of companies operating in Australia that have single digit profit margins. GW on the other hand has huge profit margins and claims it is just too costly to do business. Well it is not the first time that GW has lied to us.

Aren't salaries, rent, utilities, etc. all much higher in Australia/NZ? The exchange rate is pretty screwed up on their dollar honestly.


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spaceelf wrote:In the USA, a small fraction of the population earn more than half of the total earnings. It is rich folks like these that GW is targeting with its prices and policies. I think that GW will find that they cannot function without cash from regular joes and these people will not buy their products at their current prices.

Miniature wargames have never been a cheap hobby (though still pretty cheap as far as hobbies go), but who wants to play with poor people anyway? They tend to smell, and this way they can spend their money on... Caroline, what do these people buy? Tattered hats? Beard dirt?

Regarding the wage thing...

I was speaking to a redshirt who was advertising for staff, and asked how much he was offering as a paycheck.

He indicated it was around AU$42k a year.

This works out at around $21.5/hour.

If they sell an average of a box of marines an hour, i bet they'd recoup the cost of their staff no problems.

That is significantly more than a redshirt in the United States makes. They start, on the high side, at about $10 USD. Then again, most of them went under the bus when GW management failed to value their jobs a couple years back.

I'm amused by the sorts of posts that fail to realise most businesses get along fine with sound business practice.

The problem is the gamers have been putting up with unjustified annual hikes. Hubris has lead GW to believe it is always going to be the case.

Read the thread again
Some of us have already stopped buying. Frankly I have had enough and won't buy second hand, and it is not an idle threat.

I will be doing my best to encourage the youngsters at our after school club to play other games.

What you seem to forget is this is just part of the constant drip of rises, bullying and pissing on the Aussies, which incrementally hacks people off. You are taking the issue out of the timeline of idiotic management decisions.

The top brass need replacing before the company goes the way of the Oozelum bird.

Precisely, I majorly left GW about the time I realized their bits service was gone. Really? The one thing I loved doing, conversions, was going to require me to now buy an entire set just to get the one piece for a conversion?!? I think not.

I still have an entire SoB army I could paint up but I'm now considering putting up for sale. I could do the same w/ a huge amount of Space Marine stuff I have. Not to mention 10 years worth of bits in multiple categories: Chaos, SM, DE.

No idle threat on my part, I left long ago. I still play because I enjoy the friendships I have with the remaining friends that still play locally. I would never recommend anyone getting into 40k at this point.

Blueshirt today told me that it was 'just the annual price increase' ....

Phototoxin wrote:Blueshirt today told me that it was 'just the annual price increase' ....

Good times, only 1 more year to go until the next one then.

withershadow wrote:
Miniature wargames have never been a cheap hobby (though still pretty cheap as far as hobbies go), but who wants to play with poor people anyway? They tend to smell, and this way they can spend their money on... Caroline, what do these people buy? Tattered hats? Beard dirt?

This is an ill-informed opinion, and it shows poor judgement in posting according to the rules of this site.

Please re-read the rules (there's a link in my signature) before posting anything else.

Kilkrazy wrote:They are big countries with small populations however Australia and Canada are both highly urbanised, with over 80% of the population living in the large cities.

Sydney, for example, has 4.5 million people. That's larger than anywhere in the UK except London.

I find it hard to believe that GW are reliant on the under 20% of the population who live more than an hour or so travel from an urban centre.

Our cities tend to sprawl. So yes, there are 3(?) Gw stores, and a handful of LGS's in the Brisbane area, for example. The nearest LGS to where I live is three quarters of an hour's drive, and last time I was in there they kept practically nothing of GW's on the shelf bar the small, faster sellers... Everything else had to be ordered.

The nearest GW store is 45 minutes to an hour away in the opposite direction, as is the next nearest (and much more decent, storewise, although limited gaming-wise) LGS.

So you'll find that even a lot of people in the cities are ordering online. Australian gaming stores, with a few notable exceptions, keep a poor range and do very little for gaming, generally only having room for a very small number of tables if they have any at all, and walking into a GW store is an exercise in patience.

As well as that, small communities (we could be talking about tens of thousands, not hamlets with four houses) either won't support a gaming scene at all, or will support a small but tight one.

We had a fairly well attended gaming club when I started gaming in Rockhampton. At that point in time, there was one store (a fairly small Toyworld, so just the best sellers on hand) that stocked GW stuff within 500km. The club did far more for that gaming scene than GW or the local store ever did.

I can see that with the exception of the Highlands and Islands, and north Wales, probably anyone in the British Isles is within one or two hours reach of a shop, but it's not like they are on every street corner.

It's 45 minutes for me to get to my nearest GW shop by car or public transport. I live in west London.

I just did a quick search on the GW site. There are five GW shops in Sydney. There are only 10 GW shops in London.

Alpharius wrote:

withershadow wrote:
Miniature wargames have never been a cheap hobby (though still pretty cheap as far as hobbies go), but who wants to play with poor people anyway? They tend to smell, and this way they can spend their money on... Caroline, what do these people buy? Tattered hats? Beard dirt?

This is an ill-informed opinion, and it shows poor judgement in posting according to the rules of this site.

Please re-read the rules (there's a link in my signature) before posting anything else.

You are ill-informed and show poor judgement in not recognizing a Portal 2 reference. But I guess you're one of the unwashed masses, so I can't be too hard on you.

We're not all Portal 2 junkies. I've played the game to completion, and it still took me a second to get the reference. Keep it polite, or further action will be taken. - Lorek

Hmm... things are getting heated here. Here's a funny article to cool everyone off:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a11d074-61ec-11e0-88f7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1N2h97ENx

The funny parts:
'“If we don’t do a great job in the summer of recruiting the teenagers into the hobby, we really feel that into the next summer,” said Mr Wells.
He added that the recession only played a small part in shrinking sales this year, since the teenage boys who make up the bulk of the company’s customer base tend to fund their purchases through pocket money and part-time jobs – “and those seem to keep going”.'

'But the dividend yield of 5.9 per cent looks attractive for income seekers.'

withershadow wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

withershadow wrote:
Miniature wargames have never been a cheap hobby (though still pretty cheap as far as hobbies go), but who wants to play with poor people anyway? They tend to smell, and this way they can spend their money on... Caroline, what do these people buy? Tattered hats? Beard dirt?

This is an ill-informed opinion, and it shows poor judgement in posting according to the rules of this site.

Please re-read the rules (there's a link in my signature) before posting anything else.

You are ill-informed and show poor judgement in not recognizing a Portal 2 reference. But I guess you're one of the unwashed masses, so I can't be too hard on you.

Pretty ballsy, insulting a MOD like that...how about just saying something along the lines of "Portal 2 reference, sorry if it was offensive to people who didn't get it." Might get a few laughs. Insulting a MOD usually gets a BanHammer. And laughs from those of us who enjoy comedic human suffering

Absolutionis wrote:Hmm... things are getting heated here. Here's a funny article to cool everyone off:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a11d074-61ec-11e0-88f7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1N2h97ENx

The funny parts:
'“If we don’t do a great job in the summer of recruiting the teenagers into the hobby, we really feel that into the next summer,” said Mr Wells.
He added that the recession only played a small part in shrinking sales this year, since the teenage boys who make up the bulk of the company’s customer base tend to fund their purchases through pocket money and part-time jobs – “and those seem to keep going”.'

'But the dividend yield of 5.9 per cent looks attractive for income seekers.'

lol...this is pathetic...i bet Mark Wells would Gak himself if he realized how many teenage boys bought and will buy again this year on November 11th, Modern Warfare. The best selling video game of all time and GUESS WHAT? They didn't sneak it out quietly a week before the 11th!

Absolutionis wrote:Hmm... things are getting heated here. Here's a funny article to cool everyone off:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a11d074-61ec-11e0-88f7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1N2h97ENx

The funny parts:
'“If we don’t do a great job in the summer of recruiting the teenagers into the hobby, we really feel that into the next summer,” said Mr Wells.
He added that the recession only played a small part in shrinking sales this year, since the teenage boys who make up the bulk of the company’s customer base tend to fund their purchases through pocket money and part-time jobs – “and those seem to keep going”.'

'But the dividend yield of 5.9 per cent looks attractive for income seekers.'

I see you just posted this on facebook as well lol.


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Why talk to a MOD differently than he would any other user. if its too offensive it will be removed anyway.

taylor048 wrote:I see you just posted this on facebook as well lol.

Shh! Don't tell anyone my secret identity.

sarcastro01 wrote:I'm amused by this thread and the reaction from the community in general.

GW makes a decision a lot of folks don't like (understandable.) The masses take to the electronic streets of Facebook, pitchforks and torches in hand prepared to give the evil empire what for, somehow thinking their actions will have some sort of impact. The lord of the castle comes forward and says "this is how it is, sorry." and goes back to his castle. The masses, somehow stunned at the response now stand in the streets trying to figure out what to do next being as their rage has yet to be sated.

To those promising to rage quit - I disbelieve. I've worked in sales long enough to know that even when there are other outlets for you and you're dissatisfied, 99% of you will talk a big game and then never truly commit (by commit I mean sell of all your stuff and never play another game or even post about GW in the future) Yeah, you might not buy product for a while. You may even quit the game for a few years. In the end though, you'll be back. Why? Because in the end it is still a quality product, the games are fun and quite simply, there's no guarantee the company you flock to for a new outlet in gaming won't at some point do something similar with their pricing or policies.

For those that think the response from GW is an outright lie or at the very least just something to appease the masses - what did you expect? What exactly did you want to hear? If the response had directly addressed some of your other concerns, would your reaction be any different? If they had just come out and said "You are sheep. You will continue to buy product and support us and we know it so have a nice day."(which is exactly what some folks think the letter said anyway) would that change your opinion? Probably not.

Yeeees... as anyone familiar with GW's financial knows, their sales figures have been on an ever-increasing curve, where, like a roach motel, once you are in you never stop buying. Nope, no long term downward trend in sales at all.

Incomechat.

There was a bit of manufactured furore here recently when the Government decided to restrict the growth of welfare payments to people earning over $150,000/year. The Opposition took up the cry of "class warfare!" which was duly repeated via the usual shock jocks and news sources. It lasted for all of 3 days after people realised they don't make anywhere near that much. In fact, only 1.5% of taxpayers earn this amount or higher.

I bring this up because it has led to a nice piece of analysis of just how much people in this country actually earn.

We have a very obvious two-speed economy in Australia right now. Up the top end is the mining industry, who (while they do have a considerable rate of turnover these days) are busy digging up as much as they can and shovelling it into the insatiable furnace that is China. We are in the midst of a resources boom that has helped prop up the national economy and contributed hugely to growth. Also in the top end are tradesmen, who are working through a 10 year long housing bubble and a huge skills shortage, and the usual line up of CEOs.

Towards the bottom end is everyone else. The rest of the economy was slugged hard by the GFC and while Federal stimulus spending and lending guarantees staved off the worst, it's not all pretty. Retail in particular has had a hard time, even with stimulus handouts, and a spate of natural disasters has piled on even more bad news.

Because of this skewed economy using the average wage is a poor indicator of what people are actually earning. The top end of town artificially inflates the number as more and more people see their wages slump into lower, already accounted for brackets.

The blog that I linked shows the average weekly ordinary time earnings for full time adults to be just north of $66,000/year, but this mean figure is skewed by our two tier economy. Looking at tax statistics from 2010, he concludes that the median figure for full time workers is just under $55,000/year. This however excludes part time workers and the ever growing number of casual and underemployed workers. Once these people are included, the figure drops to just over $44,000/year. This means half of the Australian workforce earns under $44,000/year, which at current exchange rates is just under 29,000 pounds a year. A far cry from the $66,000 average.

Just something to think on.

Sorry if it has already been stated, but this, in a lot of ways, will just push people into alternative shopping (such as eBay)...not necessarily to GW stores.

Regarding the geography lesson, I'm in Ipswich, Qld, and have a GW store 45 minutes away...

BUT WHY GO THERE? (And NO WAY will I deal with GW mail order ever again...)

Reason is...eBay.

Grey Knights Army - 1 x Dreadknight, 10 x GK Terminators, 20 x GK Marines (7 box sets in total.)

Ebay - AU$251 including postage (and I can afford to wait 2 weeks for it to arrive...)

GW - AU$454

I'm on above average wage in Australia - $78000 per year, and my wife works, but I can't afford to pass up on that saving.

Sorry GW store, and Mr. Ellis...

Padre^.

EDIT...Oh, and I, and probably a few readers,didn't get the "Portal" or whatever reference...just thought the post was in poor taste. And I don't thnk Alpharius deserved that response for doing his job.

Rymafyr wrote:I would never recommend anyone getting into 40k at this point.

I've found that I don't have to really do that, the price is enough to scare them away. You don't even really need to go into detail about how GW are a big bag of dicks with nothing but hate and contempt for their "followers".

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/games-workshop-sales-decline-after-staff-numbers-slashed-15064435.html Tis sounds a bit different to everything else ive been hearing.

AMERICA!
Anyway everyone don't get so grim dark. Read the CDC Zombie invasion plan or..... Sleep

timetowaste85 wrote:

withershadow wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

withershadow wrote:
Miniature wargames have never been a cheap hobby (though still pretty cheap as far as hobbies go), but who wants to play with poor people anyway? They tend to smell, and this way they can spend their money on... Caroline, what do these people buy? Tattered hats? Beard dirt?

This is an ill-informed opinion, and it shows poor judgement in posting according to the rules of this site.

Please re-read the rules (there's a link in my signature) before posting anything else.

You are ill-informed and show poor judgement in not recognizing a Portal 2 reference. But I guess you're one of the unwashed masses, so I can't be too hard on you.

Pretty ballsy, insulting a MOD like that...how about just saying something along the lines of "Portal 2 reference, sorry if it was offensive to people who didn't get it." Might get a few laughs. Insulting a MOD usually gets a BanHammer. And laughs from those of us who enjoy comedic human suffering

Oh, do come on. Alpharius is clearly playing along... unless the suggestion is that he's special enough to seriously consider the suggestion that the poor buy "beard dirt"? I do have a vision of a monocle dropping off at the reading of Swift's "A Modest Proposal" though...

It's really hard to watch a "one man show" try to answer the phone, teach an academy, sell product, answer questions to browsers and people playing games, and keep an eye on the store at the same time. Of course profits dropped some after throwing so many employees under the bus - that's what happens.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why is everything twice as expensive in australia? I can't really think of a non commodity that isn't at least 50% more (accounting for exchange) there relative to the US.

I just don't know man. It's as if businesses have to overcome immense tax and welfare plans to a country of only 22 million with a very spread population on a continent that is very expensive to mass deliver too because all it has is that same 22 million people. But really, why would GW charge in line with other luxury items in the AU territories when they could sell at a loss to support the hobby that they selflessly dedicate themselves too?

Hm this is quite stupid i cant wait till they stop things here in canada :\

Kilkrazy wrote:I can see that with the exception of the Highlands and Islands, and north Wales, probably anyone in the British Isles is within one or two hours reach of a shop, but it's not like they are on every street corner.

It's 45 minutes for me to get to my nearest GW shop by car or public transport. I live in west London.

I just did a quick search on the GW site. There are five GW shops in Sydney. There are only 10 GW shops in London.

There are actually 11 GW stores in Sydney : Castle Hill , Parramatta , Hornsby , Liverpool , Chatswood , North Sydney , Hurstville , Sydney , Bondi , Miranda and Macarthur . Back in the 80s there were only Indies and one - The Tin Soldier , had 5 stores . They were slowly wittled out of the market and just this week have gone into recievership .

timetowaste85 wrote:Insulting a MOD usually gets a BanHammer.

Now who's being fallacious?

Buzzsaw wrote:

Oh, do come on. Alpharius is clearly playing along... unless the suggestion is that he's special enough to seriously consider the suggestion that the poor buy "beard dirt"? I do have a vision of a monocle dropping off at the reading of Swift's "A Modest Proposal" though...

No idea what portal who is but, irrespective of my gross ignorance and stupidity (how could I possibly fail to get the reference) the post was unnecessary and insulting.
I leave it to Alpharius to say whether he is just playing along.

adamantium|wang wrote:Incomechat.

There was a bit of manufactured furore here recently when the Government decided to restrict the growth of welfare payments to people earning over $150,000/year. The Opposition took up the cry of "class warfare!" which was duly repeated via the usual shock jocks and news sources. It lasted for all of 3 days after people realised they don't make anywhere near that much. In fact, only 1.5% of taxpayers earn this amount or higher.

I bring this up because it has led to a nice piece of analysis of just how much people in this country actually earn.

We have a very obvious two-speed economy in Australia right now. Up the top end is the mining industry, who (while they do have a considerable rate of turnover these days) are busy digging up as much as they can and shovelling it into the insatiable furnace that is China. We are in the midst of a resources boom that has helped prop up the national economy and contributed hugely to growth. Also in the top end are tradesmen, who are working through a 10 year long housing bubble and a huge skills shortage, and the usual line up of CEOs.

Towards the bottom end is everyone else. The rest of the economy was slugged hard by the GFC and while Federal stimulus spending and lending guarantees staved off the worst, it's not all pretty. Retail in particular has had a hard time, even with stimulus handouts, and a spate of natural disasters has piled on even more bad news.

Because of this skewed economy using the average wage is a poor indicator of what people are actually earning. The top end of town artificially inflates the number as more and more people see their wages slump into lower, already accounted for brackets.

The blog that I linked shows the average weekly ordinary time earnings for full time adults to be just north of $66,000/year, but this mean figure is skewed by our two tier economy. Looking at tax statistics from 2010, he concludes that the median figure for full time workers is just under $55,000/year. This however excludes part time workers and the ever growing number of casual and underemployed workers. Once these people are included, the figure drops to just over $44,000/year. This means half of the Australian workforce earns under $44,000/year, which at current exchange rates is just under 29,000 pounds a year. A far cry from the $66,000 average.

Just something to think on.

I'm legitimately curious, what sort of social welfare benefits were the $150K+ earners receiving and complaining about losing?

ShumaGorath wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Why is everything twice as expensive in australia? I can't really think of a non commodity that isn't at least 50% more (accounting for exchange) there relative to the US.

I just don't know man. It's as if businesses have to overcome immense tax and welfare plans to a country of only 22 million with a very spread population on a continent that is very expensive to mass deliver too because all it has is that same 22 million people. But really, why would GW charge in line with other luxury items in the AU territories when they could sell at a loss to support the hobby that they selflessly dedicate themselves too?

The problem is that it isn't in line with other luxury items in the AU territories, not even close. Other miniature ranges haven't had to do this to items that they stock to Aus nor have the FLGS passed on inflated markups on other miniature ranges to keep their doors open. This "problem" seems to be happening to GW only and while yes prices are slightly higher on luxury items in Aus they aren't twice that of anywhere else.

Here is a basic example
Maelstrom: Khador Epic Forward Kommander Sorscha £5.35 = $8.15 Aus
Irresistible Force: Khador Epic Forward Kommander Sorscha $10.50 Aus = £6.89

Maelstrom: Space Marines Commander £12.42 = $18.92 Aus
Irresistible Force: Space Marines Commander $29.60 Aus = £19.43

GW England: Space Marines Commander £13.80 = $21.02 Aus
GW Australia : Space Marines Commander $37.00 Aus = £24.28

OMG just did a few quick cals based on todays ex rates just saying ...



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My friend just suggested that Zapp Brannigan Should take over because he has better management skills than GW CEO's

Isnt this a repeat thread?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369723.page

Neconilis wrote:
I'm legitimately curious, what sort of social welfare benefits were the $150K+ earners receiving and complaining about losing?

The Family Tax Benefit is Federal assistance to families to help with the expenses of raising children, and is taken either as a supplement to income or is paid by the Government to child care facilities to offset the cost of child care. It's split into two parts, A and B. A is for all families and the amount of money a family can earn before the benefit is reduced is calculated on how many children you have, what their ages are and if you also require Rent Assistance. B is a supplement for single parent families and is paid in addition to A. The Government has frozen the annual adjustment for inflation of Part A for families earning over $150k, and will now cut Part B off to anyone earning over the same.

We have enjoyed middle class welfare from both rightist and centrist governments for the last 12 years. The Opposition was hoping to ride the sense of entitlement that has grown over that time, but it kinda backfired.

The problem with this discussion of the "appropriate" price point for GW products on the Australian market is it misses the critical point: people simply don't want to feel like they are being ripped off.

The fact of the matter is, the letter, rather then diffusing this problem, forces it: the prices in question are set to subsidize GW's infrastructure. Which means, of course, that if you don't place any particular value on this infrastructure (which I don't in particular), then you're out of luck because GW is going to use every means at it's disposal to make sure you do.

As an aside;

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Oh, do come on. Alpharius is clearly playing along... unless the suggestion is that he's special enough to seriously consider the suggestion that the poor buy "beard dirt"? I do have a vision of a monocle dropping off at the reading of Swift's "A Modest Proposal" though...

No idea what portal who is but, irrespective of my gross ignorance and stupidity (how could I possibly fail to get the reference) the post was unnecessary and insulting.
I leave it to Alpharius to say whether he is just playing along.

I'll leave it to the austere powers that be whether "beard dirt" is an affront to the edifice Dakka, but... seriously? Never heard of Portal? I'm not sure if this is meant as another example of the inadequacy of this written medium for nuance, or an admission of inadequate familiarity with the standard nerdy touchstones.

In either case, it's probably something best dealt with outside of this particular thread.

Buzzsaw wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

withershadow wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

withershadow wrote:
Miniature wargames have never been a cheap hobby (though still pretty cheap as far as hobbies go), but who wants to play with poor people anyway? They tend to smell, and this way they can spend their money on... Caroline, what do these people buy? Tattered hats? Beard dirt?

This is an ill-informed opinion, and it shows poor judgement in posting according to the rules of this site.

Please re-read the rules (there's a link in my signature) before posting anything else.

You are ill-informed and show poor judgement in not recognizing a Portal 2 reference. But I guess you're one of the unwashed masses, so I can't be too hard on you.

Pretty ballsy, insulting a MOD like that...how about just saying something along the lines of "Portal 2 reference, sorry if it was offensive to people who didn't get it." Might get a few laughs. Insulting a MOD usually gets a BanHammer. And laughs from those of us who enjoy comedic human suffering

Oh, do come on. Alpharius is clearly playing along... unless the suggestion is that he's special enough to seriously consider the suggestion that the poor buy "beard dirt"? I do have a vision of a monocle dropping off at the reading of Swift's "A Modest Proposal" though...

Considering the warnings, mod PMs and the moral outrage of several posters above you, I am sad to say no one is playing along at all. Not even a little. Special indeed.

lord_blackfang wrote:

CX316 wrote:I have a relatively decent income for my age bracket. The average income in the UK is apparenly about 22,800 pounds. That's AU$34,703.

That's roughly around the area I'm making (give or take, I forget how much exactly I make nowdays, keeps changing) definitely not double the income.

Wanna try a new argument?

I'm sorry you're making half of Oz's average wage.
http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/average-wages-australia.html

His age bracket. Maybe he's ninteen, bro. And average is nothing, 65k is definantly not accurate.

Also, I believe he works part time.very confusing how money works here.

Also, get official sources, not some site trying to get you to emigrate.

We'll make a historystudent out of you yet!

Any chance we can a sweep stake on the next lot of excuses frm GW when they finally realise that Aus players have cut back on their spending / total stopped. Can we have a list who they will blame for that and why they now need to put up prices again?

Wolfstan wrote:Any chance we can a sweep stake on the next lot of excuses frm GW when they finally realise that Aus players have cut back on their spending / total stopped. Can we have a list who they will blame for that and why they now need to put up prices again?

It the fault of the internet traders selling black market GW stock to the OZ/NZ. A immediate 25% price increase for GW Oz will stop the black market and increase sales

GW Oz has not correctly priced their product and an immediate 75% price increase for GW Oz will be in place to increase sales

It the communist plot. an immediate 50% price increase for GW Oz will be in place to increase sales and stop the commie plot

Oz players are disloyal being bred from prisoner scum. an immediate 200% price increase for GW Oz will be in place to increase sales and make them loyal to the empire one again.

It does not matter what the excuse is I can see a retributive/required "price adjustment" of at least an additional 20% before Christmas to fix sales

taylor048 wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Hmm... things are getting heated here. Here's a funny article to cool everyone off:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a11d074-61ec-11e0-88f7-00144feab49a.html#axzz1N2h97ENx

The funny parts:
'“If we don’t do a great job in the summer of recruiting the teenagers into the hobby, we really feel that into the next summer,” said Mr Wells.
He added that the recession only played a small part in shrinking sales this year, since the teenage boys who make up the bulk of the company’s customer base tend to fund their purchases through pocket money and part-time jobs – “and those seem to keep going”.'

'But the dividend yield of 5.9 per cent looks attractive for income seekers.'

I see you just posted this on facebook as well lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why talk to a MOD differently than he would any other user. if its too offensive it will be removed anyway.

If anything, you can get away with a bit more against a moderator because we tend to bend over backwards in our desire to be even-handed.

Now now... some of you guys do a fair bit of bending over forwards as well.

Somebody needs to draw a sketch of Mark Wells holding a gun up to the head of the "hobby" and exlaiming: "Give me your money or the hobby dies!!"

withershadow wrote:Now now... some of you guys do a fair bit of bending over forwards as well.

Kilkrazy wrote:

withershadow wrote:Now now... some of you guys do a fair bit of bending over forwards as well.

I dunno how they do it, but Japanese girls innately master the whole cute/oddly arousing thing.

Yet slightly unsettling at the same time..

Japanese girls have a kind of kid-sister quality to me that makes them a bit unnerving

This has taken a slightly creepy turn hasn't it?

Wayland have responded in their newsletter
in case anyone hasn't seen it

Managing such growth has been far from simple; we have experienced growing pains like any business in any sector that has exploded in market share terms. Our growing pains have also been more painful as we continually seek to adjust to a shifting commercial landscape from our dominant supplier, Games Workshop. Like many of you, I believe that Games Workshop produce a fantastic product which gives endless joy to countless people. I am proud to be associated with them. Unsurprisingly, therefore, I read with real concern the statement by the CEO Mark Wells over the new trade terms which effectively prevents us selling Games Workshop supplied products outside Europe. Mark’s statement can be found here

Mark seems to be clearly of the view that on-line retailers ( and we are not purely that, of course given our bricks and mortar presence) “free ride” on the back of Games Workshop’s bricks and mortar outlets. We have sought over the years, and I thought with some success and recognition, to demonstrate to Games Workshop the value that we provide not just in terms of sales but also in terms of pre and after sales service (not to mention our activities at trade fairs), which is clearly equivalent to the service that is provided on the “ground” by bricks and mortar outlets. Quite aside from the legality of Games Workshop’s actions, we are confused by the commercial attitude of Games Workshop which hampers our ability to sell to hobbyists to the clear disadvantage of both Games Workshop (albeit maybe not their retail arm) and the hobbyists themselves.

I will not air anyone’s dirty laundry in public. Therefore, I am writing to Games Workshop separately (its board, lawyers and their principal shareholders) to share my concerns in greater depth. I hope that commercial common sense will prevail and that we can continue to work with Games Workshop to expand their market and bring a great product to as many people as possible at the best price possible. After all, Games Workshop not only has a clear responsibility to the market but also a clear responsibility to its shareholders (which, after all, could be you and me!).

In the meantime, we believe after the announced terms are implemented we shall be able to continue to offer all of our loyal customers the same product range that we offer today. There may be a small lead time to implement but we've been given a rather short period to react. We will comply fully and completely with the new terms and conditions of sale imposed upon us and will not contravene them in any capacity whatsoever (albeit we would not wish that to be seen as acceptance of their legality), all we seek to achieve is that customers both old and new are able to benefit from our view of the market wherever they are located. We all love our hobby.

Two-pennorthworth. Beard dirt is no longer cheap, but is considered a luxury item, like smoking and clothes for children. There was an article in the Mail bemoaning tax money being wasted on health-care and beard dirt.

Did Wells drag satire out into the back and neck-shoot it whilst he was killing the hobby?

That letter that Yakface posted... I just don't get his numbers. How bad are his Australian stores running that he has to charge twice the UK price to keep them viable? There is clearly more to that story than he's sharing.

Padre wrote:My State, Queensland, has, to my knowledge 4 GW stores. To put Queensland in perspective, it’s more than seven times the size of the United Kingdom, more than four and half time the size of Japan, around six and half times the size of New Zealand, and more than five times the size of Texas.

Only about 2.5 times the size of Texas, actually. I had to google that.

Texas: 268,820 square miles and 25.1 million residents.

Queensland: 666,876 square miles and 4.5 miillion residents.


Not to take away from your point, though. GW is totally boning you guys on price.

GW wants customer money. The best way of achieving maximum result (in their eyes) si simply to price goods accordingly to the buying power in each country. For long, GW prices have been completely unrelated to production costs. They do not officially aim for high volumes, they expect high margins.

Also, to achieve this result, GW has to control the entire supply chain, from factory to final buyer. If they could, they'd probably prevent/control eBay sales as well.

Internet sellers and floating exchange rates killed this strategy. In our global world, only suckers buy at premium price for long.

So GW reacted by preventing foreign sales. Australian players suffer from this and have a point, but dwindling AU sales can't compare to soaring EU profits because of renewed margins (or so they hope). Too bad, Aussies are being sacrificed for the Greater Good.

The long term strategy of GW is extremely simple: ban, hinder and neuter each and every alternate supply chain. Good sales are made through GW stores, and if no store is available, through GW online store. Period. Everything else has to disappear, once it has contributed as much as it could to GW success. Resellers, you know it...

Of course, GW ise bound to fail - simply because diehard fans like us will find alternate ways of getting our minis, like we always did. Trying to control prices over such a market is like preventing teenagers from watching online porn. No matter how hard your case will be, you'll always be one step behind.

But even if they fail, they'll hurt their own customer base a lot by trying.

I guess that in a couple years from now, GW will sue chinese producers from selling cheap fakes on eBay.
That's what awaits you if you push yourself into the luxury market with a quality that can be easily duplicated.

In my opinion, greed is good, but your way of getting money should be by pleasing customers and expanding the player base, not by driving people mad...

Scipio Africanus wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

CX316 wrote:I have a relatively decent income for my age bracket. The average income in the UK is apparenly about 22,800 pounds. That's AU$34,703.

That's roughly around the area I'm making (give or take, I forget how much exactly I make nowdays, keeps changing) definitely not double the income.

Wanna try a new argument?

I'm sorry you're making half of Oz's average wage.
http://www.emigratetoaustralia.org/average-wages-australia.html

His age bracket. Maybe he's ninteen, bro. And average is nothing, 65k is definantly not accurate.

Also, I believe he works part time.very confusing how money works here.

Also, get official sources, not some site trying to get you to emigrate.

We'll make a historystudent out of you yet!

Jesus guys, you're gonna give me some sort of complex here...

I'm 27, and work full time. I'm not a tradie or a salaried exec or something but I make better than a lot of people I know.

When you only have 20,000,000 people in a country, the figures for average income get thrown off by the thousands of tradies working in the mining sector walking home will well over 100K a year, plus all the usual millionaire crowd every country gets. Just look at some countries in the middle east, their average net worth is ridiculous considering the poverty a fair chunk of the country lives in.

It's pretty fair to say the average Warhammer player over here is unlikely to be making 65-70k a year. When I was playing in high school I was living on about... 10k I think it was and living on instant noodles

CX316 wrote:
When you only have 20,000,000 people in a country

Hey, you're from Australia? Do you know Bob from Queensland? He drives a white pickup and likes U2. Tell him I said hi!

kronk wrote:

CX316 wrote:
When you only have 20,000,000 people in a country

Hey, you're from Australia? Do you know Bob from Queensland? He drives a white pickup and likes U2. Tell him I said hi!

That Sharon's husband? Yeah, I'll give him a call on the old dog 'n bone... why the hell am I encouraging this?

And we call them "Utes", not "Pickups" (and not many queenslanders who drive utes are big U2 fans )

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wayland have responded in their newsletter
in case anyone hasn't seen it

Managing such growth has been far from simple; we have experienced growing pains like any business in any sector that has exploded in market share terms. Our growing pains have also been more painful as we continually seek to adjust to a shifting commercial landscape from our dominant supplier, Games Workshop. Like many of you, I believe that Games Workshop produce a fantastic product which gives endless joy to countless people. I am proud to be associated with them. Unsurprisingly, therefore, I read with real concern the statement by the CEO Mark Wells over the new trade terms which effectively prevents us selling Games Workshop supplied products outside Europe. Mark’s statement can be found here

Mark seems to be clearly of the view that on-line retailers ( and we are not purely that, of course given our bricks and mortar presence) “free ride” on the back of Games Workshop’s bricks and mortar outlets. We have sought over the years, and I thought with some success and recognition, to demonstrate to Games Workshop the value that we provide not just in terms of sales but also in terms of pre and after sales service (not to mention our activities at trade fairs), which is clearly equivalent to the service that is provided on the “ground” by bricks and mortar outlets. Quite aside from the legality of Games Workshop’s actions, we are confused by the commercial attitude of Games Workshop which hampers our ability to sell to hobbyists to the clear disadvantage of both Games Workshop (albeit maybe not their retail arm) and the hobbyists themselves.

I will not air anyone’s dirty laundry in public. Therefore, I am writing to Games Workshop separately (its board, lawyers and their principal shareholders) to share my concerns in greater depth. I hope that commercial common sense will prevail and that we can continue to work with Games Workshop to expand their market and bring a great product to as many people as possible at the best price possible. After all, Games Workshop not only has a clear responsibility to the market but also a clear responsibility to its shareholders (which, after all, could be you and me!).

In the meantime, we believe after the announced terms are implemented we shall be able to continue to offer all of our loyal customers the same product range that we offer today. There may be a small lead time to implement but we've been given a rather short period to react. We will comply fully and completely with the new terms and conditions of sale imposed upon us and will not contravene them in any capacity whatsoever (albeit we would not wish that to be seen as acceptance of their legality), all we seek to achieve is that customers both old and new are able to benefit from our view of the market wherever they are located. We all love our hobby.

That reminds me. I've never seen GW at any gaming shows over here in the UK all the promoting of th hobby is done by Indies. The only time I've heard of them going to a show was the big Engineering & Modelling show held at the Royal Bath & West showground a few years ago. I had some friends running stands there and they said the GW presence was dire. My mates ran better demo games than GW did and got more visiitors.

Wolfstan wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Wayland have responded in their newsletter
in case anyone hasn't seen it

Managing such growth has been far from simple; we have experienced growing pains like any business in any sector that has exploded in market share terms. Our growing pains have also been more painful as we continually seek to adjust to a shifting commercial landscape from our dominant supplier, Games Workshop. Like many of you, I believe that Games Workshop produce a fantastic product which gives endless joy to countless people. I am proud to be associated with them. Unsurprisingly, therefore, I read with real concern the statement by the CEO Mark Wells over the new trade terms which effectively prevents us selling Games Workshop supplied products outside Europe. Mark’s statement can be found here

Mark seems to be clearly of the view that on-line retailers ( and we are not purely that, of course given our bricks and mortar presence) “free ride” on the back of Games Workshop’s bricks and mortar outlets. We have sought over the years, and I thought with some success and recognition, to demonstrate to Games Workshop the value that we provide not just in terms of sales but also in terms of pre and after sales service (not to mention our activities at trade fairs), which is clearly equivalent to the service that is provided on the “ground” by bricks and mortar outlets. Quite aside from the legality of Games Workshop’s actions, we are confused by the commercial attitude of Games Workshop which hampers our ability to sell to hobbyists to the clear disadvantage of both Games Workshop (albeit maybe not their retail arm) and the hobbyists themselves.

I will not air anyone’s dirty laundry in public. Therefore, I am writing to Games Workshop separately (its board, lawyers and their principal shareholders) to share my concerns in greater depth. I hope that commercial common sense will prevail and that we can continue to work with Games Workshop to expand their market and bring a great product to as many people as possible at the best price possible. After all, Games Workshop not only has a clear responsibility to the market but also a clear responsibility to its shareholders (which, after all, could be you and me!).

In the meantime, we believe after the announced terms are implemented we shall be able to continue to offer all of our loyal customers the same product range that we offer today. There may be a small lead time to implement but we've been given a rather short period to react. We will comply fully and completely with the new terms and conditions of sale imposed upon us and will not contravene them in any capacity whatsoever (albeit we would not wish that to be seen as acceptance of their legality), all we seek to achieve is that customers both old and new are able to benefit from our view of the market wherever they are located. We all love our hobby.

That reminds me. I've never seen GW at any gaming shows over here in the UK all the promoting of th hobby is done by Indies. The only time I've heard of them going to a show was the big Engineering & Modelling show held at the Royal Bath & West showground a few years ago. I had some friends running stands there and they said the GW presence was dire. My mates ran better demo games than GW did and got more visiitors.

GW doesn't show up in the U.S. either. Nothing at Gencon or Adepticon, perhaps the best two places they could go to garner some positive attention.

infinite_array wrote:GW doesn't show up in the U.S. either. Nothing at Gencon or Adepticon, perhaps the best two places they could go to garner some positive attention.

That kind of thinking is dangerously close to advertising and developing customer relations. Don't make me call the Inquisition.

infinite_array wrote:GW doesn't show up in the U.S. either. Nothing at Gencon or Adepticon, perhaps the best two places they could go to garner some positive attention.

If you ever worked a Gen Con and had to put up with the constant yelling from their area every 20 minutes, them not showing up anymore was a blessing.

infinite_array wrote:
GW doesn't show up in the U.S. either. Nothing at Gencon or Adepticon, perhaps the best two places they could go to garner some positive attention.

Forgeworld was at Adepticon. They seemed like decent enough guys.

Public opinion seems to only have them pegged as part of GW depending on some advanced lunar cycle I've yet to fully understand.

Forgeworld was at Adepticon. The guy running the register was the guy that did the artwork for the Badab War

Really nice guys, especially for the long days they endured (busy from open to close with a constant line)

Le Grognard wrote:

infinite_array wrote:GW doesn't show up in the U.S. either. Nothing at Gencon or Adepticon, perhaps the best two places they could go to garner some positive attention.

If you ever worked a Gen Con and had to put up with the constant yelling from their area every 20 minutes, them not showing up anymore was a blessing.

Que?

lol, rather than adjusting our prices to match currency fluctuations we choose to make gross amounts of profit off of the aussies. We are doing it for your own good. BS!

AgeOfEgos wrote:Forgeworld was at Adepticon. The guy running the register was the guy that did the artwork for the Badab War

Really nice guys, especially for the long days they endured (busy from open to close with a constant line)

Forge World are still the hardcore hobbyists that we wish GW had not stopped being.

Frazzled wrote:

Le Grognard wrote:

infinite_array wrote:GW doesn't show up in the U.S. either. Nothing at Gencon or Adepticon, perhaps the best two places they could go to garner some positive attention.

If you ever worked a Gen Con and had to put up with the constant yelling from their area every 20 minutes, them not showing up anymore was a blessing.

Que?

Guess he is talking about the "WAAAAAAAAGH!" meme by GW booths.

Kilkrazy wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Forgeworld was at Adepticon. The guy running the register was the guy that did the artwork for the Badab War

Really nice guys, especially for the long days they endured (busy from open to close with a constant line)

Forge World are still the hardcore hobbyists that we wish GW had not stopped being.

Sad but true - good point!

Of course, it is rather obvious who controls the setting of price points though!

The "Waaagh" calls is one of the few things I'm Not going to miss about GW moving GamesDay to Chicago...

Kilkrazy wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Forgeworld was at Adepticon. The guy running the register was the guy that did the artwork for the Badab War

Really nice guys, especially for the long days they endured (busy from open to close with a constant line)

Forge World are still the hardcore hobbyists that we wish GW had not stopped being.

Oh no doubt. When I was bullshitting with them about the game---you could tell they actually play and not just sell the stuff. They haven't become "The Man ™" (yet).

So reading through this whole discussion, I have wondered if GWs increasing costs can be compared to any other "hobby" over time.

I started skateboarding and playing Games Workshop games at around the same time, 2003, so it seemed like a fair comparison.
At the time, a pro skateboard deck cost 80-90$CDN, a set of trucks around 50-60$ and wheels around 30-40$.
Now in 2011, all of those objects still cost relatively the same amount even with online retailers, inflation, economic changes, cost of oil, using new metals, plastics or wood used in the development of these products.

Games workshop on the otherhand has seen drastic price increases practically every year in everything from brushes, paints, and old models with old molds which haven't changed in almost a decade. It seems that every time i walk into my Hobby Store every few months, I'm amazed at how everything has magically risen a few bucks in prices.

How GW can justify "saving the hobby" by banning international sales online is beyond me. If Wayland can ship to Australia or Canada at these lowered prices and still make a profit, what is preventing GW from shipping to their stores at this same price. Yes, maybe at a 15% discount instead of 30%, but from what II hear, you lads in OZ are getting royally demolished by this ridiculous cashgrab, with price gouging of far over 30%.

I think this price increase and attempt to control the market rather than use business sense to combat competition might be the last straw for me sadly.

Maybe I'll take up Solitaire.
Or Crazy 8s... any takers?

Drugs have become more expensive as a hobby, does that count?

And ammo prices have gone way up. I've forgotten the last time I left the range not having just turned $150 into noise and gunsmoke.

Frazzled wrote:

Le Grognard wrote:
If you ever worked a Gen Con and had to put up with the constant yelling from their area every 20 minutes, them not showing up anymore was a blessing.

Que?

Every 20 minutes, some neckbeard idiot would shout WAAAAGH!! and all the other lemmings would join in.

withershadow wrote:Drugs have become more expensive as a hobby, does that count?

Whatever man---water and some strong lights makes for cheap drugs!

Ascalam wrote:Yet slightly unsettling at the same time..

Japanese girls have a kind of kid-sister quality to me that makes them a bit unnerving

Don't know what Japanese girls you tend to look at, but the ones I tend to look at sure don't.

Not naming names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

withershadow wrote:Drugs have become more expensive as a hobby, does that count?

Whatever man---water and some strong lights makes for cheap drugs!

So do a few boxes of Claritin if you know what you're doing.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

withershadow wrote:Drugs have become more expensive as a hobby, does that count?

Whatever man---water and some strong lights makes for cheap drugs!

Eat things found in the forest?
Probably what GW's been doing to justify their business model.

Being a musician and a 40k player...my wallet is pretty much always empty ):

wish GW stayed the old prices when i didnt have to sell a kidney for some termies *sighs* oh well

You could always try busking or be a GW Troubadour singing ballads to celebrate a victory/mourn a loss.

Am sure there would be a ready market for such. More of a Fantasy thing maybe.

Well, I'm out. I've been on the fringes from years, occasionally dipping back into the hobby and spending a few thousand bucks, then out then in etc.

I'll make one last order from Maelstrom for things I haven't bought but would really like to have (for painting), then I'm done.

I've got more than enough figures to play most any 40k army in some form until I expire, especially smaller forces. New rulebooks will always be available online. Both from booksellers and more ...digital methods.

I don't play anything enough these days to start again with Warmachine, etc. I've got a few Warzone armies here that have been pretty inert for more than the past decade. Fun at the time, but not doing all that again.

Ah well, it's been a long ride, and it's been fun.

Everything is expensive in Aussie land.
When I visited Perth it was like $22 AUS for a paperback book, a stack of pan-cakes at a dinner was $9 AUS and well, there are other examples. Maybe that’s just Perth. I don’t know. But my experience in the land down under was that everything there was more expensive, by a lot, then things in other countries.

At any-rate, while I did not read the entire thread, so I am not sure if this has been said, what I got from it was this:
Buying stuff online doesn’t support the local hobby. Buying stuff from your FLGS does. It’s one of the reasons Games Workshop doesn’t like online retailers. If you buy something from Biffy’s online store of fun, or Teds Friendly Local Game Store, Games Workshop gets the exact same amount of money. Except Biffy doesn’t do anything to bring new people into the hobby, has low operating costs, and does have a space for you to play or anything like that. Ted does. A lot of us have a few friends who play, and might play at a mate’s house or the like. But many of us, myself included, got into this Hobby because we saw these bad ass toys at a comic book store or even GW store when we were young, and wanted to play with them or collect them or whatever. That’s how most people get into it.
Buying Online slowly kills the hobby.

Is it evil or anything, no.

Does it hurt to make some buys online? Nope. I buy lots of stuff online.

But if you enjoy this hobby, then you should buy locally. I am not saying support gakky stores if that’s all you have in your area, but buy where you play, and so forth. Bits and the like are better to get online, sure, but if you buy everything online how can you expect the community where you live to survive, be it in aussie land or New York?

That’s what GW wants you to do, from what I read in this letter. They don’t want you buying online because then you don’t support the local gaming community. Games Workshop gets basically the same amount of money no matter WHERE you buy from. Why did they do this then? Likely because their stores, and FLGS’s, have operating costs. So if people are not going to them in Aussie land or South America or where ever, because they buy everything on line or they are going to them to play but not buying their mini’s there, then those stores will wither and die. And eventually the hobby in that area will slowly die out too because there will be fewer and fewer places to get into the hobby or to meet people to play with.

GW isn’t some evil corporation out to screw you. They are some toy makers who also write books on just how you should play with their over-priced toys, and they want to make sure the community for these toys is successful. It’s easy to hate a company that is relatively large and faceless, because it’s popular, because you wish it was cheaper, or for any number of reasons. Still, there can be no denying that NO other company puts out as many updates and new kits, NO other miniatures company has stores you can play in, learn the basics of playing in or meet new friends to play with in. Games Workshop, like them or hate them, has really built this community.

Just my 2 cents.

-Tabitha.

ColeFournier wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

withershadow wrote:Drugs have become more expensive as a hobby, does that count?

Whatever man---water and some strong lights makes for cheap drugs!

Eat things found in the forest?
Probably what GW's been doing to justify their business model.

They roll poison mushrooms for mysterious forests every single time!

Tabitha wrote:Everything is expensive in Aussie land.
When I visited Perth it was like $22 AUS for a paperback book, a stack of pan-cakes at a dinner was $9 AUS and well, there are other examples. Maybe that’s just Perth. I don’t know. But my experience in the land down under was that everything there was more expensive, by a lot, then things in other countries.

At any-rate, while I did not read the entire thread, so I am not sure if this has been said, what I got from it was this:
Buying stuff online doesn’t support the local hobby. Buying stuff from your FLGS does. It’s one of the reasons Games Workshop doesn’t like online retailers. If you buy something from Biffy’s online store of fun, or Teds Friendly Local Game Store, Games Workshop gets the exact same amount of money. Except Biffy doesn’t do anything to bring new people into the hobby, has low operating costs, and does have a space for you to play or anything like that. Ted does. A lot of us have a few friends who play, and might play at a mate’s house or the like. But many of us, myself included, got into this Hobby because we saw these bad ass toys at a comic book store or even GW store when we were young, and wanted to play with them or collect them or whatever. That’s how most people get into it.
Buying Online slowly kills the hobby.

Is it evil or anything, no.

Does it hurt to make some buys online? Nope. I buy lots of stuff online.

But if you enjoy this hobby, then you should buy locally. I am not saying support gakky stores if that’s all you have in your area, but buy where you play, and so forth. Bits and the like are better to get online, sure, but if you buy everything online how can you expect the community where you live to survive, be it in aussie land or New York?

That’s what GW wants you to do, from what I read in this letter. They don’t want you buying online because then you don’t support the local gaming community. Games Workshop gets basically the same amount of money no matter WHERE you buy from. Why did they do this then? Likely because their stores, and FLGS’s, have operating costs. So if people are not going to them in Aussie land or South America or where ever, because they buy everything on line or they are going to them to play but not buying their mini’s there, then those stores will wither and die. And eventually the hobby in that area will slowly die out too because there will be fewer and fewer places to get into the hobby or to meet people to play with.

GW isn’t some evil corporation out to screw you. They are some toy makers who also write books on just how you should play with their over-priced toys, and they want to make sure the community for these toys is successful. It’s easy to hate a company that is relatively large and faceless, because it’s popular, because you wish it was cheaper, or for any number of reasons. Still, there can be no denying that NO other company puts out as many updates and new kits, NO other miniatures company has stores you can play in, learn the basics of playing in or meet new friends to play with in. Games Workshop, like them or hate them, has really built this community.

Just my 2 cents.

-Tabitha.

It's not the customers fault games workshop can't entice them to buy from their stores. Welcome to capitalism and free market enterprise

If you remember perth at all, there is no 'FLGS'. There are 3 GW stores, each with 2-3 4x4 demo tables. There is one independent wargames retailer (and a bunch of chain stores that sell mostly puzzles and mainstream board games)

*IF* I knew what this 'FLGS' craze was, I might buy some stuff from them. I dunno what the situation is like over east, but those things just don't exist here. Nearly all experienced gamers play at home or at clubs.

Growing the hobby. With eBooks.

So log in via a proxy in europe or similar, and download from there (or get a penpal to buy it for you and share it over IM

You're right though. GW has been steadily getting more demented these last few years..

H.B.M.C. wrote:Growing the hobby. With eBooks.

That is Awesome, you know, in a bad way... But still, Awesome.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Growing the hobby. With eBooks.

Because Australian median wage earners make less than CEOs in America, which means bandwidth will suffer inflation as it crosses under Australian water, which may have a higher salinity than Mr. Wells pool water---which makes the delivery of Ebooks to Australian customers a much higher cost endeavor. You should feel lucky, they're growing your economy!

Trasvi wrote:
If you remember perth at all, there is no 'FLGS'. There are 3 GW stores, each with 2-3 4x4 demo tables. There is one independent wargames retailer (and a bunch of chain stores that sell mostly puzzles and mainstream board games)

*IF* I knew what this 'FLGS' craze was, I might buy some stuff from them. I dunno what the situation is like over east, but those things just don't exist here. Nearly all experienced gamers play at home or at clubs.

Huh? You serious? I moved to Perth two and a half years ago. Barely did my feet hit the tarmac and I was told where the FLGS in the CBD is. In London Court. Every Perth gamer knows where it is, right? And there's a heap of clubs. There's a forum called WA Gamer or something should be able to find out more.

Ooohh...unless you think FLGS is the name of a chain of stores rather than any friendly shop that sells exclusively gaming stuff.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Because Australian median wage earners make less than CEOs in America, which means bandwidth will suffer inflation as it crosses under Australian water, which may have a higher salinity than Mr. Wells pool water---which makes the delivery of Ebooks to Australian customers a much higher cost endeavor. You should feel lucky, they're growing your economy!

Well you've convinced me. I now consider myself a White Knight-ing GW Apologist.

Thanks Egos!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Because Australian median wage earners make less than CEOs in America, which means bandwidth will suffer inflation as it crosses under Australian water, which may have a higher salinity than Mr. Wells pool water---which makes the delivery of Ebooks to Australian customers a much higher cost endeavor. You should feel lucky, they're growing your economy!

Well you've convinced me. I now consider myself a White Knight-ing GW Apologist.

Thanks Egos!

You're better than Ouze. He's disgustingly apologetic for GW.

Makes me sick.

Just drink the special kool-aid and it'll all make sense!

Regarding increasing hobby costs:

Magic: The Gathering booster packs prices went from 3.29 USD (2005) to 3.95 USD (2011).

Which isn't drastic at all (not to mention that dollar went down in these years, so foreign players probably didn't experience any change in price for over a decade).

Ofcourse, competetive MTG is expensive as gak, but that doesn't stop you from playing on budget or casually.

scipio.au wrote:Well, I'm out. I've been on the fringes from years, occasionally dipping back into the hobby and spending a few thousand bucks, then out then in etc.

What the feth were you buying? Even a full 2000 point list from a horde army wouldn't run much more than $1000au bought locally. I should know, I've bee building a horde Tyranid army all bought locally. My army is at just about 1000 points, and I haven't spent more than $500au. That's including some stuff bought from Forgeworld (though not including my Hierophant which doesn't quite count until Apocalypse).

Building an army, bought locally, isn't that expensive. Sure, it's not as cheap as buying overseas, but as a hobby, it's cheap. When I consider the $12,000 I dropped on video games in the last 4 years (though that includes the systems - a PC, 2 PS3s, a PSP and a Wii), I'd have much preferred to only be interested in even just GW wargames in that time.

scipio.au wrote:
building a horde Tyranid army all bought locally. My army is at just about 1000 points, and I haven't spent more than $500au.
Building an army, bought locally, isn't that expensive. Sure, it's not as cheap as buying overseas, but as a hobby, it's cheap. When I consider the $12,000 I dropped on video games in the last 4 years (though that includes the systems - a PC, 2 PS3s, a PSP and a Wii), I'd have much preferred to only be interested in even just GW wargames in that time.

Wow. 500 AUD for 1k pts army? even 300 AUD would be pretty steep for a 1k army unless were talking all metal models.

That is the most polite way I can say that paying 500 for 1000 pt horde nid army is ridiculous.

True - but its a far cry from 'occasionally dipping into the hobby and spending thousands of dollars'. That's what I was pointing out. Buying locally is expensive, thousands of dollars is still ridiculous unless you're putting together multiple full armies every time you 'dip' into the hobby. At the point, complaining about price is stupid, and it's not really 'dipping into the hobby'.

Trasvi wrote:If you remember perth at all, there is no 'FLGS'. There are 3 GW stores, each with 2-3 4x4 demo tables. There is one independent wargames retailer (and a bunch of chain stores that sell mostly puzzles and mainstream board games)

*IF* I knew what this 'FLGS' craze was, I might buy some stuff from them. I dunno what the situation is like over east, but those things just don't exist here. Nearly all experienced gamers play at home or at clubs.

I only went to the Games Workshop in the mall in perth when I was there. I was there during the planet strike release (day of actually). I believe I bought some sentinals. There were alot of young kids, but the staff was very friendly, and even though the store was small that mall is awesome, so its a great location. Lots of great eatting just past the train station to the north of it too, a very good area. I would rather have a small nice GW store in a good location then a big sprawling LGS in some gakky area with a disgruntled and smelly owner any day. If I lived in Perth I think I wouldnt have any problem using the GW in the mall as my gaming store.

-Tabitha

CadianCommander wrote:Huh? You serious? I moved to Perth two and a half years ago. Barely did my feet hit the tarmac and I was told where the FLGS in the CBD is. In London Court. Every Perth gamer knows where it is, right? And there's a heap of clubs. There's a forum called WA Gamer or something should be able to find out more.
Ooohh...unless you think FLGS is the name of a chain of stores rather than any friendly shop that sells exclusively gaming stuff.

Tactics, at least by my definition, is not a gaming store. They don't have gaming tables, except for Magic, unless I've somehow manage to walk past them for the last 10 years. I support them where I can by buying all of my paints and other supplies there.

And also... how are you people building a 1000pt army for $300? I calculated my 1000pt army would have cost nearly $600 at RRP.

I'll admit that you couldn't ask for a more convenient, prominent location than the GW Perth store, but I find the tables too small (and always taken up with demo games), and the staff swing between too cliquey with their regular customers and too pushy (serious sales pitch: O, I see you came in you buy a new pot of Sorched brown. Do you know what looks good in scorched brown? this BANEBLADE!). I prefer playing at the Kwinana club, especially due to the large number of BFG players down there.

Travsi wrote:
Tactics, at least by my definition, is not a gaming store.

Tactics only sell gaming products. How are they not a gaming store? Just because they're not set up for people to play wargaming doesn't make them not a FLGS. Perth has lots of wargaming clubs plus the three GWs. Tactics are the one big and only place to go for roleplaying books and CCGs as well as stocking many different wargames, wargaming products, Cthulu plushies and board games for those who take good board games (like Fantasy Flight) seriously. They can't cater for everything and everyone. With the multitude of other places people can play the games they sell, they don't need to.

Tabitha wrote:
I only went to the Games Workshop in the mall in perth when I was there. I was there during the planet strike release (day of actually). I believe I bought some sentinals. There were alot of young kids, but the staff was very friendly, and even though the store was small that mall is awesome, so its a great location. Lots of great eatting just past the train station to the north of it too, a very good area. I would rather have a small nice GW store in a good location then a big sprawling LGS in some gakky area with a disgruntled and smelly owner any day. If I lived in Perth I think I wouldnt have any problem using the GW in the mall as my gaming store.

The guys in all the GW stores are top notch. When I first got into 40k at no stage was I made to feel ignorant or foolish because the ten year old ankle biters running around my feet knew more about the mechanics of the game than I did or, by the same token, patronised me, or overwhelmed me with information thinking I knew more than I did. My b/f and I spend a lot of time at two of the stores because the staff are so friendly and the atmosphere is great. One of them is now in our Death Watch rpg group. (Reason we don't go to the third store is it's too far for us). They really are a great bunch of guys. And I was surprised not long after I joined the forum when someone made a crack (no ill will intended mind you) about being surprised at the female wargamer. At our GW stores, sometimes up to half the people at the table are female. There's none of this "hot girl in the comic shop and I didn't know what to do" feel to any of the gaming stores here, GW or Tactics.

In all this ridiculousness that's coming out of GW I feel really sorry for the staffers that work in the shops. They are a wonderful bunch of people, passionate about their job and hobby and introducing others to it and helping those who share their passion further the hobby.

Breaks my damn li'l heart.

...I hope this doesn't flag as a double post cos else this is going to be a stupidly long thread by me on different aspects of this situation.

However, a friend of mine wrote a letter to Mark Wells and very kindly has allowed me to post it here for all to see, so long as his name and email address were removed. So without further ado:

-----Original Message-----
From: Bestia
Sent: 23 May 2011 15:11
To: HobbyService; UK Web Orders; US Customer Service; Investor
Relations; Mark Wells; dan@theeternalwarriors.com;
11thcompany@tangtwo.com; contact@imperialvoxcast.com;
Lounge@Gamerslounge.coda.net; mail@worldsendradio.com
Subject: Open Letter to Mark Wells

Dear Mark Wells

Thanks for the copy and paste reply to the concerns of Gamers worldwide. The five minutes you took to dodge the issue was very telling. Now let me address your points in your open letter.

"As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centers and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centers run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us."

This maybe the case in America and the UK, this is not the case here in Australia. Here club's play in local scout halls and community centers, without any support from Games Workshop or their stores. We run tournaments, club days, and painting sessions, all off our own back, and at cost to ourselves.

"Where we don't have a Games Workshop Hobby Centre, we support local independent trade accounts. These businesses provide a convenient place for customers to buy our products close to where they live. We support these businesses with local customer service teams and warehouses to ensure customers have immediate access to our best selling products and new releases. Many customers discover the hobby this way."

Again this might be the case in the UK, but here in Australia, most of the hobbyists come across our gaming clubs, and either buy or are given a small army to start with, and then buy their own army up.

"In addition we invest millions of pounds every year in our design studio and factory to ensure that each month we release more new products. This makes the Games Workshop Hobby more exciting for existing customers, helping them stay in the hobby longer. We can only afford to do this because of the volume of customers we have recruited and developed through our local Hobby Centers and trade accounts."

Yet you have rule books and models that have not been update for over 10 years. On top of that you have a number of incomplete model lines and have decided to completely ignore a very strong and loyal community, the blood bowl community.

"It is for this reason that we have changed our European Trade terms. Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists. This has been the case with European internet traders selling to some of our customers overseas."

The reason many of the Australian Hobbyists go to the European internet traders is simple. You mark up the cost on Australian prices - 70% to 120%, regardless of the exchange rate, but more on that later.

"While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimize their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base."


This is great in the long run for Australian hobbyists, because again Games Workshop don't invest any money in the local scene either.

"The inevitable consequence if this was allowed to continue is that Games Workshop would not be able to operate Hobby Centers, nor to support local trade accounts. And if this happened in more territories outside Europe, the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do."

Again, if there was realistic results from your product development it wouldn't be such a big issue. But for a company that strongly refuses to get involved in the tournament scene. Nor give anything back to the Australian community; this at least to me translates to "Increase our sales margin as the number of units we are selling are decreasing".

Podcasts like The Eternal Warriors, Imperial Vox Cast, Independent Characters, The 11th Company, The Gamers Lounge, World's End Radio, have done more for encouraging and keeping gamers playing 40k then Games workshop has done in the last 12 years I have been playing this game.

"That is why we took the decision to take legitimate action to restrict European trade accounts from selling the goods they purchase from Games Workshop outside Europe."

While the actions were legitimate, they come across as money grabbing and immoral; attempting to milk the average gamer of everything they have, up to the point where they will not put up with anymore. On top of that Games Workshop as decreased cost creating their miniatures, they increase the price.

While I understand Games Workshop is a company that is at the end of the day trying to make a profit, please understand why Games Workshop will never get another dollar from my hobby fund. But I must thank you, because of your choices; I have found games like War Machine, Malifuax, Firestorm Armada, and Dystopian Wars. As well hobby supplies from Miniatures supplies from Reaper and Gale Force 9.

Thank you for understanding, and I hope that your choices do not lead to the closure of Games Workshop
Bestia
23/05/11

Now...the response?

From: "Investor Relations" <InvestorRelations@games-workshop.co.uk>
Date: May 24, 2011 18:28:43 GMT+08:00
To: Bestia
Subject: RE: Open Letter to Mark Wells

Dear Bestia,

I'm sorry you feel that way. It seems we are not going to agree on these issues. There's not much else I can say but thanks for making your feelings known to me.

Yours sincerely,

Mark Wells

At least he replied. There was no way he could suddenly admit you're right.

What the??!! That was Marks reply? They took the time to write a great email with lots of valid points and his reply is basically thanks for the email, I will file this with the others in the bin! Oh how I miss the early 90's GW, you actually felt part of something back then... :( Well I'm going to continue ordering from FW as of course I collect DKOK and any other bits I need I will get from Dark Sphere or eBay. And since me and my Fiancee have recently got into Malifaux, Wyrd will be getting my cash also.

...What?!?!

That 2 page email with well though arguements, get's that pathetic 2 line answer?
WHAT?!

CadianCommander wrote: Just because they're not set up for people to play wargaming doesn't make them not a FLGS.

It would appear to... at least by Mark Wells' definition.

Both from booksellers and more ...digital methods.

So your a pirate? Disgusting.

Insaniak wrote
It would appear to... at least by Mark Wells' definition.

Nah, they sell GW stuff so according to Mark Wells they're freeloading.

withershadow wrote:Drugs have become more expensive as a hobby, does that count?

And ammo prices have gone way up. I've forgotten the last time I left the range not having just turned $150 into noise and gunsmoke.

Frazzled wrote:

Le Grognard wrote:
If you ever worked a Gen Con and had to put up with the constant yelling from their area every 20 minutes, them not showing up anymore was a blessing.

Que?

Every 20 minutes, some neckbeard idiot would shout WAAAAGH!! and all the other lemmings would join in.

Jeez, thats just pathetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Capt. Rex wrote:...What?!?!

That 2 page email with well though arguements, get's that pathetic 2 line answer?
WHAT?!

Why on earth would you expect 1) a reply; 2) anything more than that? You sent a general email. BFD.

Personally, Frazzled I respond to corporate emails all day every day. It's my job. I teach other people how to do it. I write procedures and templates on how to write professional emails from the company to the general public.

That response would have me hauling someone's arse to the TL's office.

That's kind of the response I'm expecting to my letter as I basically said that was it.

I guess if you state forcefully that you're going to stop buying their products, he's not not going to bend over backwards (or forwards ) to change your mind.

You can almost hear Mark Wells filing it. In a shredder.

*Shrug* I'm suprised he took the time to respond at all, I assume he's reasonably busy and is getting quite a lot of hatemail right now.

I think GW stores do carry out a pretty valuable function in getting more players into the hobby, but I also know from my own experience that the hobby can grow without a GW or even a local store. I grew up in rural Ireland and the only place that stocked miniatures was the Toymaster in town, they didn't have the full range and they didn't offer any hobby support of any kind, nor did I expect any. As a teenager I set up a gaming board in my bedroom, saved my money from part time jobs and hoarded christmas and birthday presents and bought or made my own scenery from model railway suppliers. I had a group of 8 other gamers who I got interested by showing them the books and lending them miniatures.
The point is, kids will get into this stuff if they are interested and the price isn't too high. (Back then, miniatures were a good bit cheaper than computer games). They don't absolutely NEED a GW store, though no doubt it helps.
The same is true all over ireland, as only the major cities have FLGS and only Dublin has GW. Most of the population is rural, and yet wargaming is pretty healthy there.

GW's principal objective is to get more n00bs into the GW HHHobby.

I recognise that they need to get new people buying, I am only interested in what GW can do for me as a vet.

Once their n00b facing activities become more important than their attempts to attract me, naturally I lose interest.

I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Erm, no. Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competative. Of course, Games Workshop probably still thinks that they have some kind of monopoly over litle plastic figures, but if they do so then they are wrong.

KingDeath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Erm, no. Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competative. Of course, Games Workshop probably still thinks that they have some kind of monopoly over litle plastic figures, but if they do so then they are wrong.

Erm, no? What do you mean "erm no" does that one sentence describe the complex mechanics of capitalism does it? "Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competitive"

Horse gak.

The point of having a business is making fething money. Say I have a few grands worth of stocks in GW, I want them to make as much cash as possible. Simple.

Its not "making yourself more competitive by lowering prices" its making mother fething money.

If you don't need to make yourself more competitive, then you don't need to lower prices. If you make a pill that cures cancer, why do you need to sell it cheap if your the only bloke selling it? Should Blizzard charge 4 euros less a month for a wow sub to be "more competitive" even though they are blowing every other MMO away and ergo don't need to be more competitive?

As I said, your talking nonsense.

GW are confident they can charge more and still sell almost as many minis, they must think it will make higher profits, so that's their decision. If GW have gone bankrupt in 18 months, ill bow to your superior knowledge and concede defeat, but otherwise, you fail. And im guessing your going to fail.

If GW go bankrupt in the next 18 months, your smart and can "erm no" me as much as you like.

If they don't, I win.

mattyrm wrote:
Erm, no? What do you mean "erm no" does that one sentence describe the complex mechanics of capitalism does it? "Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competitive"

Horse gak.

The point of having a business is making fething money. Say I have a few grands worth of stocks in GW, I want them to make as much cash as possible. Simple.

Its not "making yourself more competitive by lowering prices" its making mother fething money.

I think you're both wrong. "The purpose of business is to provide a service, to the mutual benefit of two or more parties" That means making money but not to the detriment of service; that is the difference between an ethical and unethical business.

Capitalism, is simply an economic system where by the investments into economic activity are freely held privately, rather than by state or other cooperative body.

mattyrm wrote:
GW are confident they can charge more and still sell almost as many minis, they must think it will make higher profits, so that's their decision. If GW have gone bankrupt in 18 months, ill bow to your superior knowledge and concede defeat, but otherwise, you fail. And im guessing your going to fail.

I tend to think GW's CEO's main concern has less to do with profit optimization and more stock price consistency. They're too short sighted in the ways that matter to their fan base. The fact is their volume of sales fell about ~10% the last time they raised prices, but their revnue stayed the same. GW is on a steady course of moving themselves from a highend casual market into a purely luxury market.

mattyrm wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Erm, no. Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competative. Of course, Games Workshop probably still thinks that they have some kind of monopoly over litle plastic figures, but if they do so then they are wrong.

Erm, no? What do you mean "erm no" does that one sentence describe the complex mechanics of capitalism does it? "Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competitive"

Horse gak.

The point of having a business is making fething money. Say I have a few grands worth of stocks in GW, I want them to make as much cash as possible. Simple.

Its not "making yourself more competitive by lowering prices" its making mother fething money.

If you don't need to make yourself more competitive, then you don't need to lower prices. If you make a pill that cures cancer, why do you need to sell it cheap if your the only bloke selling it? Should Blizzard charge 4 euros less a month for a wow sub to be "more competitive" even though they are blowing every other MMO away and ergo don't need to be more competitive?

As I said, your talking nonsense.

GW are confident they can charge more and still sell almost as many minis, they must think it will make higher profits, so that's their decision. If GW have gone bankrupt in 18 months, ill bow to your superior knowledge and concede defeat, but otherwise, you fail. And im guessing your going to fail.

If GW go bankrupt in the next 18 months, your smart and can "erm no" me as much as you like.

If they don't, I win.

As much as dont want to agree with matt im goin to have to.

Note: Its nothing to do with you as a person, just that I agree that GW can price stuff as they wish, plus the comparison to Wow was quet enlightening.

To be fair, you chose two really horrible examples to point out how practicing capitalism only sees prices increase. WoW is king. Period. It doesn't have any competition to speak of so Blizz could probably get away with raising the price a little and not begin hemorrhaging customers. Instead what they have done is begin offering paid services, like realm transfers, faction transfers, and race changes. On top of that they have been pretty successful in their micro transaction initiatives. You're able to buy mounts and pets from Blizzard's online store that become available to your characters when you log in. They've made tons of money with these new services and didn't have to raise the price of their basic product in the process.

GW is another horrible example because they seem to be confident that they don't have any competition. But if you look at Privateer Press you can clearly see a company that is using GW's economic decisions to their own advantage. They've done what they can to make sure that the prices of their starter boxes at least remain the same, even if it means using different materials for casting models. And their recent attempt at drawing in new players (battlebox+tokens+templates=free rulebook) is pretty obviously a reaction to the current levels of disillusionment and disenfranchisement on the part of GW players.

If there isn't a sense of competition, then these rules will not apply.

The response to that letter isn't surprising. Its the same length/message anyone from outside America gets over the abuse that Konami does to players in the Yugioh card game.

Corporate emails aren't long or detailed and they always sound like automated messages. Its the way they are.

Just curious and wondered if the people who are defending GW's stance on protecting the hobby also buy from Amazon? I work in Bournemouth and we used to have a great big Borders, but no longer. It closed due competition from places like Amazon and the supermarkets. Although I did buy from Amazon I did also buy from the store. There are a ton of books on my shelf that I discovered by browsing the shelves at lunchtime. Books I'd of never come across if I just used Amazon. You could say that places like Border's also offered a similar role that GW likes to preach on about. It was a place where you could go and sit down and read a book before buying. It had a large children's section as well.

Nobody came to the defence of places like Border's, nobody stopped buying from Amazon to protect these shops, so what makes GW so special? The internet Genie is well out of the bottle, for good or bad. GW needs to adapt to this.

I can see that there are some strong feelings out there and that tempers are flaring a little, even if most of it is directed at Games Workshop. I am an ex employee of Games Workshop, I left about 7 years ago for a career change. At the time I was working there the companies policy was to move away from gamers under the age of 12 and to grow more mature hobbyists from teenagers to adults as they were less into the latest craze (ie likely to buy some stuff and then drop it all and switch to yoyos or something like that) and in the adult market customers had more disposable income. With regards to the miniatures and the costs of development - at that time the cost of white metal (whatever it contains now) was rising and they wanted to move more towards plastics. At that time the price I heard quoted for the production for one laser cut mold was £1,000,000, so one sprue would cost that much but of course once it was made you could squirt out loads of that model. Think about how many plastic kits GW makes. That is considerable investment and the lead in times to design the models, packaging and re write a rule book etc all to co-inside with a launch was at least a year, never mind if it was a new rule set like AoBR. People have complained that some armies aren't being addressed enough but they do have rolling development for each of their armies and new models are released pretty much every week. (I would draw your attention to the fine cast resin models being released this weekend at local gaming stores in the uk. Link here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16700019a )

I'm not saying I love GW at all, I enjoyed my time there but there just wasn't the career progression I was looking for and the pay was poor. I enjoy my hobby and spend a fair amount of money on it, I must admit that I like many others I will buy from the internet because even with delivery costs I can save about 20%. I still make regular visits to my local GW store because I like the staff and it is good to get feedback on projects, advice and modeling tips. I buy something now and then but not a lot in store now. I do lament the prices that the figures have risen too but if I were disciplined enough to buy one model/unit box and then go home and make it and then paint it then go back for the next, I think it would be an easily sustainable hobby.

With regards to Australia, I logged on to the Aus GW site and compared the price of a tactical squad in the UK to one in Aus and was frankly disgusted at the price disparity.
A space marine Tactical Squad in the UK is £23 in Aus for the same squad it is £40.43! Almost double! Now it has been a while since I got my degree in Economics and I haven't looked up the average income in Aus compared to here but I just can't see how that sort of price difference is acceptable. My only thought of possible explanation is the import tax but it seems that importing items over $1000 will incur 10% GST and 5% Tax so that only explains 15% more. How would they make up the rest of the price hike? Even the cost of transporting it wouldn't be that much!

The australian price is very high, and of interest to me because I've considered moving there. Now various people have defended GW by saying that the cost of everything is higher down under and that pay is higher.

Well I'm looking at an above average starting wage but the costs of things are colossal. House prices and rent are insane, and a few quick calculations have shown that with other essential bills it would take a lot of what I would earn and not leaving a heap of disposable income. Buying GW at regular prices would be a lot even once I'm on good money but Oz prices are out of the question. It's just one more thing to think about, not that GW prices have any affect on my decision where to live, it's just a reflection of costs. It must be very hard for people on low wages to put a decent roof over their head in Australia.

Necronomitron wrote:To be fair, you chose two really horrible examples to point out how practicing capitalism only sees prices increase. WoW is king. Period. It doesn't have any competition to speak of so Blizz could probably get away with raising the price a little and not begin hemorrhaging customers. Instead what they have done is begin offering paid services, like realm transfers, faction transfers, and race changes. On top of that they have been pretty successful in their micro transaction initiatives. You're able to buy mounts and pets from Blizzard's online store that become available to your characters when you log in. They've made tons of money with these new services and didn't have to raise the price of their basic product in the process.

GW is another horrible example because they seem to be confident that they don't have any competition. But if you look at Privateer Press you can clearly see a company that is using GW's economic decisions to their own advantage. They've done what they can to make sure that the prices of their starter boxes at least remain the same, even if it means using different materials for casting models. And their recent attempt at drawing in new players (battlebox+tokens+templates=free rulebook) is pretty obviously a reaction to the current levels of disillusionment and disenfranchisement on the part of GW players.

If there isn't a sense of competition, then these rules will not apply.

You dont think the wow comparisson is an apt one though?

Ive had my wow account for five years, granted I didnt play when I was away on ops, but ive always kept the account. They have took me for about what.. £450 in subs over the years?

If they added £2 a month, I would pay it. So would 99.99% of my guild. The point im simply making is that we LOVE wow, so we will carry on paying regardless of a price increase.

GW are the same, this website amuses me because of how irate people get about GW, but we fething LOVE IT. We are on dakka because we love it, we love the fluff, we love the books and the stories, we love the models and we love the whole universe they have created. Now, im not a rich GW board member, I can just deal with the cold hard facts of life. I would like it if GW charged less, but they dont, so I shrug it off, spend a bit less on booze and clothes, and crack on buying their stuff.

90% of people will do the same, if you want to stop buying, then do so, but seriously, the nerd rage people display is laughable. Its their company, they make these decisions rightly or wrongly, but really, whats the point in the impotent rage?

Thats all im saying. Im not saying Im happy about the price increase, im jus saying.. you know.. gak happens. No sense to cry about it. If I owned GW, id want to do my best to make a gakload of cash as well!

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Lot of minis for the price of a PS3 game eh? Well here in Aus, PS3 games are about $100-110 new release (Yes, Sony are screwing us too), while a Land Raider is $103. A squad of Terminators costs $5 less than a PC copy of Black Ops did on new release. A 5 man combat squad of marines costs about as much as a bottle of Jager. The price of a single Space Marine Commander kit would pay for public transport for me to get to and from work for two weeks, and still have enough change left over to buy lunch on one of those days.

You Aussies do get robbed... Id stick to ebay!

CadianCommander wrote:Personally, Frazzled I respond to corporate emails all day every day. It's my job. I teach other people how to do it. I write procedures and templates on how to write professional emails from the company to the general public.

That response would have me hauling someone's arse to the TL's office.

1. Are you the CEO responding? Frankily I am doubtul this one was either.
2. Agreed it was a bad email reply. But again I've been taught its imprudent to have any executive level employee responding to an email.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Erm, no. Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competative. Of course, Games Workshop probably still thinks that they have some kind of monopoly over litle plastic figures, but if they do so then they are wrong.

No. You're making the assumption capitalism is efficient and is designed for that. That can be an effect, but not necessarily, and only until monopolies/oligopilies form. Oh look what GW thinks it is...

Capitalism is about making money, legally (mostly).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Erm, no. Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competative. Of course, Games Workshop probably still thinks that they have some kind of monopoly over litle plastic figures, but if they do so then they are wrong.

Erm, no? What do you mean "erm no" does that one sentence describe the complex mechanics of capitalism does it? "Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competitive"

Horse gak.

The point of having a business is making fething money. Say I have a few grands worth of stocks in GW, I want them to make as much cash as possible. Simple.

Its not "making yourself more competitive by lowering prices" its making mother fething money.

If you don't need to make yourself more competitive, then you don't need to lower prices. If you make a pill that cures cancer, why do you need to sell it cheap if your the only bloke selling it? Should Blizzard charge 4 euros less a month for a wow sub to be "more competitive" even though they are blowing every other MMO away and ergo don't need to be more competitive?

As I said, your talking nonsense.

GW are confident they can charge more and still sell almost as many minis, they must think it will make higher profits, so that's their decision. If GW have gone bankrupt in 18 months, ill bow to your superior knowledge and concede defeat, but otherwise, you fail. And im guessing your going to fail.

If GW go bankrupt in the next 18 months, your smart and can "erm no" me as much as you like.

If they don't, I win.

Oh, wait, what this ex army guy said only better than I did.
Whats scary is I actually understand what he's saying for once.

mattyrm wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I dont want to sound like Devils Advocate, but I go out on the piss at least twice a week and that costs me £50-60 a time. The bars are always full as well, mainly due to the university, so these "poor" students cant be that hard up.

So the way I see it, If one Friday night of the month I stay in to play minis, then ive saved 60 quid. I dont think the hobby is THAT expensive is it? You can buy a heap of models for what it costs you to buy a new game for your PS3.

Im not going to quit playing or buying, it sucks that they raise prices, but ho hum, thats capitalism.

World of Warcraft is the same, its all nerdrage, but we all love the products, and we still keep buying them, so why get your knickers in a twist?

Erm, no. Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competative. Of course, Games Workshop probably still thinks that they have some kind of monopoly over litle plastic figures, but if they do so then they are wrong.

Erm, no? What do you mean "erm no" does that one sentence describe the complex mechanics of capitalism does it? "Capitalism is actualy lowering your prices/ increasing the quality of your service to become more competitive"

Horse gak.

The point of having a business is making fething money. Say I have a few grands worth of stocks in GW, I want them to make as much cash as possible. Simple.

Its not "making yourself more competitive by lowering prices" its making mother fething money.

If you don't need to make yourself more competitive, then you don't need to lower prices. If you make a pill that cures cancer, why do you need to sell it cheap if your the only bloke selling it? Should Blizzard charge 4 euros less a month for a wow sub to be "more competitive" even though they are blowing every other MMO away and ergo don't need to be more competitive?

As I said, your talking nonsense.

GW are confident they can charge more and still sell almost as many minis, they must think it will make higher profits, so that's their decision. If GW have gone bankrupt in 18 months, ill bow to your superior knowledge and concede defeat, but otherwise, you fail. And im guessing your going to fail.

If GW go bankrupt in the next 18 months, your smart and can "erm no" me as much as you like.

If they don't, I win.

Your assumption that GW can freely increase prices to make more money ( which is indeed the central motivator of capitalism ) is wrong, since this strategy is only working for products with a very low price elasticity ( and i doubt that little plastic soldiers fall into this category ), preferably in a monopoly.
You ignore the fact that GW actualy has competition which is, at least if GW would take their competition seriously, almost always dealt by with by becoming more competative which eventualy enables your company to continue making money / to make more money by increasing your market share.
This can include lower prices or better service. This rarely includes raising prices and reducing the amount of service to your customer to become even less attractive.

Blizzard on the other hand has very few serious competitors and not a single one which can provide something that reaches the quality of their product ( at least when it comes to casual fantasy mmorpgs ). Of course, Blizzard also realises that they cannot work under the assumption that the price for WoW can be raises ad infinitum without risking severe results in regard to their amount of customers.
So no, GW doesn't have to get bancrupt within 18 months to prove my point, but i can almost guarantee you that they will continue to lose their market share and that the amount of sold GW miniatures will continue to decrease.

I think GW models have demonstrated low price elasticity for a long time, and that has allowed GW to get away with frequent price rises. However everything except insulin has a point where the price elasticity breaks down.

The question is whether GW have reached that point yet.

The second question is how much influence people leaving the HHHobby have on others who may or may not have joined it.

I believe GW receives a lot of word of mouth support from vets. The presence of lots of vets helps ensure a wide userbase and support for newbies. How often have you seen people say they can go nearly anywhere and get a game of 40K? I've said it myself.

This is called the network effect. The more people playing the game, the more reason for people to join the game.

If this effect was ever important, and it started to break down, GW would find themselves in trouble.