Just thought Id show these off. Dont take offense to the scheme as you can see there arent really any swazis. This is the product of Inspiration from the following: Wolfenstien, Indiana Jones, Captain America, Company of heroes

Terrifying

Oh boy....here we go....

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Oh boy....here we go....

So let's be mature about it. It's not supporting a facist regime, it's not screaming Neo-Nazi, It's simply a testimony to the strength of the axis war machine and is filled with awesome video game characters. Good job man.

I enjoy the army,
Before the self righteous crusaders come out of the inter webs.
look at this for it is. They are very nicely painted and converted IG army and, they do have a overall German theme. No bad images just iron crosses(around before Nazi's)
Painted in WW-2 color schemes. (I like how the iron crosses used are GW ones, the BT look awfully close) He has nothing offensive to any one IMO. (Unless you hate red skull)

Overall a pretty good painted IG army would like to see more pictures good free hand work and nice feel of the army.

Paint job would be more suited for Flames of War, I think.

ghostmaker wrote:I enjoy the army,
Before the self righteous crusaders come out of the inter webs.
look at this for it is. They are very nicely painted and converted IG army and, they do have a overall German theme. No bad images just iron crosses(around before Nazi's)
Painted in WW-2 color schemes. (I like how the iron crosses used are GW ones, the BT look awfully close) He has nothing offensive to any one IMO. (Unless you hate red skull)

Overall a pretty good painted IG army would like to see more pictures good free hand work and nice feel of the army.

This.

I really like the army, I don't see why anyone should be offended by it.

Its cool, now I want someone to make an Indiana Jones Army. GO!

I really Like the paint scheme. But I be a hater of the SS, but considering that all of the traitiors during WW2 of Germany were all military, it makes sense i am not offended by this.

Though all I gotta say haters are going to hate this.

agreed haters going to hate at a plastic army.
there is no reason to be mad, it is models we play with and paint I do not care what you paint your army or do with it.

If he *had* painted his officers like SS and put swastikas all over the place, I'd be questioning his morality, however, as-is I don't find the army to be offensive at all, but I also don't see how it fits into the 40k universe at all. Seeing the Wermacht insignia on 40k stuff is just out-of-place. If you want to play the Wehrmacht, play Flames of War, the 40k universe really isn't a place for real-life themes. The game has the themes mostly represented already by various analogs, such as the Steel Legion or Death Korps.

Ive been toying with the idea of painting an army similarly ,so its nice to see what the final product would look like.

Hey look, it's this thread again. /facepalm

The army is fine, especially now that you edited out the Hitler CCS. A german themed army is cool, especially one based on video games and comic books. When you start incorporating Hitler/Swastikas/etc. though, you're heading down a path that most folks will not be comfortable with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also interesting that this is your first post and topic. Sockpuppet?

sphynx wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Oh boy....here we go....

So let's be mature about it. It's not supporting a facist regime, it's not screaming Neo-Nazi, It's simply a testimony to the strength of the axis war machine and is filled with awesome video game characters. Good job man.

I agree, some of you guys need to grow up and be a bit more mature then some internet children


I think the army has alot of character. How/did you make/get the Redskull head?

Consider that the following comes from a proud American who isn't a fan of Nazi stuff at all: There's a difference between the German Army and the Nazis/SS in ww2. The lines are often blurred and it isn't a good thing because most of the guys in the German army were simply doing their civic duty just like anyone else who serves their country. I do not see any swasticas, SS symbols, or the like; and therefor there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the army posted above. Before anyone starts saying ANYTHING against this thread also consider the disgusting furry crap that has been posted on here in the past few months (I think we all know that ridiculous thread).

That being said, the army is very well painted, and I think you did a great job capturing both the german army and video game inspirations that it has.

I like the paint job. The Red Skull officer was hysterical, and totally unexpected. The flags in place of sniper cloaks is innovative. I may do that myself sometime. All in all, I don't really think this army is offensive. I also note that there hasn't been a single post thus far from someone who is offended. Maybe civility and rationality can win out today.

KingCracker wrote:

sphynx wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Oh boy....here we go....

So let's be mature about it. It's not supporting a facist regime, it's not screaming Neo-Nazi, It's simply a testimony to the strength of the axis war machine and is filled with awesome video game characters. Good job man.

I agree, some of you guys need to grow up and be a bit more mature then some internet children


I think the army has alot of character. How/did you make/get the Redskull head?

The head was from the command squad box. Its the one bald one with the scarred face, i just shaved the ears and nose

I myself thought of this idea to, making them germanish, just really like the colour scheme and such.
But never really started it and now I just got plain cadians (which are nice also

But I like it, good use of the greys :]

I'm not offended, your army is awesome!

It's funny, because I haven't actually seen anyone in the thread claim to be offended by the army. I have seen a lot of people be offended by the idea that someone else *might* be offended, however

Nobody has addressed the fact that the theme simply doesn't fit the universe, however.

Geemoney wrote:I'm not offended, your army is awesome!

This x10.

I am offended.

Very offended.

Because this guy has 5x the painting skill I will ever have.

Iranna.

(Edited for Spelling.)

Painted nicely, quite striking...but once again with such themed armies, really in bad taste.

(Its not the same as playing a Nazi army from a game set in that period, or pulp. Jury rigging the theme into a completely different setting can irk some people...)

...Though I do myself have a contintent of my Imperial Guard army based off an alternative future fascist sci fi series....I just don't use any of the insignia...I just like the look of the armour... =/

Wyrmalla wrote:Painted nicely, quite striking...but once again with such themed armies, really in bad taste.

It's really on your view as to whether it's in bad taste or not.

Bottom line is, if you open a thread entitled "4th Reich Imperial Guard" then don't be surprised with what you see or be offended.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

Wyrmalla wrote:Painted nicely, quite striking...but once again with such themed armies, really in bad taste.

It's really on your view as to whether it's in bad taste or not.

Bottom line is, if you open a thread entitled "4th Reich Imperial Guard" then don't be surprised with what you see or be offended.

Iranna.

Like I said in my edit, its alright playing Nazi themed armies in WWII or pulp setting, but your just going to bug people with you choose to use such themes in a completely different setting.

Oh and Lord Deth, you should check out the film "Jin Roh". The soldiers in that have some really cool armour which would go well with the look of your army (though you'd need to do minimal plasticard/greenstuff work to make them). ^^

Why would it bug people? The death korps of Kreig have a very heavy Germanic feel to them, that doesn't bother people (that I know of?).

So a WWII army of any kind shouldn't bother anyone: they're your models do with tham what you wish, as long as you're pleased then that's all that should matter.

Still I do see where you're coming from and what you're getting at, perhaps I'm too liberal for my own good...

Iranna.

Excellent paint job!

I love the Valkyrie.

Iranna wrote:Why would it bug people? The death korps of Kreig have a very heavy Germanic feel to them, that doesn't bother people (that I know of?).

So a WWII army of any kind shouldn't bother anyone: they're your models do with tham what you wish, as long as you're pleased then that's all that should matter.

Still I do see where you're coming from and what you're getting at, perhaps I'm too liberal for my own good...

Iranna.

If you want to play 40k, stick with a theme that fits in the universe. Like I sad before, the existence of the Death Korps is not a reason to *play* real-life themed armies, it's a more suitable alternative. If you want to play a WWII army play flames of war.

willydstyle wrote:

If you want to play 40k, stick with a theme that fits in the universe. Like I sad before, the existence of the Death Korps is not a reason to *play* real-life themed armies, it's a more suitable alternative. If you want to play a WWII army play flames of war.

Or play 40k? I seriously do not believe you are telling people that they cannot play a game of toy soldiers because of the way said soldiers are painted/modelled, more suitable or not.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

If you want to play 40k, stick with a theme that fits in the universe. Like I sad before, the existence of the Death Korps is not a reason to *play* real-life themed armies, it's a more suitable alternative. If you want to play a WWII army play flames of war.

Or play 40k? I seriously do not believe you are telling people that they cannot play a game of toy soldiers because of the way said soldiers are painted/modelled, more suitable or not.

Iranna.

Eh, I'm not an authority who can tell him that he *can't* play 40k. I just think that if you have a hard on for WWII Germans there are suitable alternatives (Death Korps, Steel Legion, etc.) or you can play Flames of War to *actually* be able to play the theme. I seriously do not believe that you are telling people that it's perfectly wonderful to use WWII themes in 40k.

willydstyle wrote:
Eh, I'm not an authority who can tell him that he *can't* play 40k. I just think that if you have a hard on for WWII Germans there are suitable alternatives (Death Korps, Steel Legion, etc.) or you can play Flames of War to *actually* be able to play the theme. I seriously do not believe that you are telling people that it's perfectly wonderful to use WWII themes in 40k.

Or you can model a WWII themed army?

This game is all about being free to express yourself through your models and having a fun time. If someone wants to play WWII Germany in space then let them. The DKoK models are expensive to buy and/or time consuming to greenstuff. The beauty of 40k is that everything is indeed possible.

If you really have a problem with someone's interest in WWII Germany and their way of expressing said interest then I'm afraid you may just have to suck it up.

Iranna.

I think that the idealogy of Nazizm may bug people a little... The 40k guard regiments that are based off of that period don't go about waving swastika's (even if the Imperial Aquila is just as bad, but that thing's fictional). Shall we not turn this article into the argument that every one of these Nazi themed guard army articles turn into?

Wyrmalla wrote:I think that the idealogy of Nazizm may bug people a little... The 40k guard regiments that are based off of that period don't go about waving swastika's (even if the Imperial Aquila is just as bad, but that thing's fictional). Shall we not turn this article into the argument that every one of these Nazi themed guard army articles turn into?

Indeed, you may be right.

/silenced.

Iranna.

Are some of the models still WIP? I can see a lot of variation in the skin of the troops - some are incredibly flat, while others appear to have been washed, some of latter group having been given successive highlights. Just curious if it was a matter of incompleteness, oversight, or a conscious shortcut. Either way, the overall effect is quite striking.

Honestly, I can see the draw for an army like this. I find the WWII German aesthetic rather attractive, as far as military "fashion" goes, and I think it fits into the universe as well as any of the other historical/fantasy inspirations for the various forces. Any claims to the contrary are blatantly ignoring the similar cases already rampant in the established fluff, likely on the grounds that, as an amateur "pet project," there hasn't been a concerted effort to apply a filter of invented (but intentionally evocative) symbol and name changes. Whether that's to be considered a mask of decency or a feeble stab at apparent originality is debatable.

If someone gives you flak, you can always claim that you couldn't decide between Cadians, Black Templars, and DKoK, so you went for the common ground between the three.

loving the bf109 scheme on the valk.

I just realized how ironic this whole situation is considering how brutal the imperium of man is.

Pretty nice looking although some washes can be used here and there on the infantry faces and cloth. Dudes in the second pic need it a bit more, excluding the Sarg's face.

Vehicles look excellent and don't require touch ups.


Overall, Awesome job!

Nice Origional idea for painting up guardsmen Op. I can tell that you put so much hard work and thought behind this project. You're army will fit in perfectly on the tabletop alongside other players and will not draw any unwanted attention whatsoever. I mean, who could possibly look at your army and peg you as either a skin head supporter or a misguided kid who is screaming for attention in any way that he can.

Well done sir, well done.

facepalm

Funny you should mention that cause im actually a tank mechanic for the US Army. Anyways im glad this thread didnt turn into some kind of abomination like many of its kind have in the past. I appreciate the comments and the criticism, I am also fully aware that in the panzer elite pic the troops have not been finished. There is definitely more where this came from. Maybe a buddy of mine will put up his soviet dogs. we have had a couple of WW2 guard slugfests.

Awesome army, I dont see anything wrong or morally questionable at all, Its very nice work overall

sigh, there is nothing wrong about celebrating German Military heritage. Nicely done man!

Seriously its a really nice idea doing such a painting scheme i really enjoy the ww2 themes on 40k really grim indeed!

There seems to be a lot of hate for this well executed paint scheme. Also, Red Skull is a nice addition

Its interesting to see how other people are doing WW2 armies. My local store has 3 people with various war themed armies (all IG). A Catachan Vietnam themed army, a Cadian ww2 Wehrmacht army, and a ww2 marine army based on the flag planting at Iwo Jima. Keep up the good work!

I really like this idea and the execution is awesome. They look very impressive. Well done.

I always thought Wehrmacht painted IG army would look sweet.

Good job OP, dont let the haters hate.

Good job op! Don't let anyone smack you down for this.... Most people seem to forget that the majority of German troops were not Nazi's. They were German. The Nazi Party was a political movement and the majority of the German rank and file were just troopers going to war because that is what the Gov't at the time ordered them to do.

On topic, I really like the camo scheme on the vehicles and the addition of Red Skull is pretty sweet!

I think the problem is when you include Hitler. Which the OP did in his CCS. He removed the picture afterwards, but it is clear from earlier posts that he was there.

There's a difference between celebrating German military heritage and celebrating Nazis. Hitler and Swastikas usually make that difference.

With that edit, he made it from a slightly disturbing army to a nicely done comic book derived army (red skull). But the truth is that it is still slightly disturbing in real life, since Hitler is still there.

If a guy wants to paint a Wermacht themed army, let them paint a Wermacht themed army. If they want a Hitler in there, let them have a Hitler in there. All of this political correctness can really make one sick.

Great paint job btw

(and yes, I'm an Israeli Jew and 90% of my family perished in the holocaust and I don't find this disturbing. Neither should you since 40k is a game and a lot of people tend to forget that)

Hat's off to you, adary. You just made a very good point.

htj wrote:Hat's off to you, adary. You just made a very good point.

It isn't that adary made a good point, it is that he missed the point. Not being offended by Hitler armies when you are a jew is great and all and very progressive, but doesn't make the situation any different.

It doesn't matter why he did it or why society doesn't like it; the end result is all that matters. He knows that by painting this army, putting it on the internet and playing against people that he will get a certain reaction. I am not judging that reaction either way. Personally, I don't care. I'll play anyone. Not everyone is like that and by making the army this way, he is guaranteeing to cause friction with some folks.

He made a choice to cause that friction. That's the problem. The hobby is inclusive. We all want to have fun and play games. If you are doing things intentionally that will reduce some people's fun? That's a problem.

The same would be true if you painted an army based on any other controversial topic. You know what you're doing and, whether you intend it or not, are going to gain attention and tick off your opponent.

The point being: the friction is coming from people taking offence and making the assumption that painting an army in the theme of German fascist forces is a blow for Neo-Nazism. Tell me, do you have a problem with Valhallans with red stars on their tanks? What about Praetorians with British flags?

Maybe he just likes the look of Nazis in films and games, you know, like he said. He wanted to paint a themed army and he did. It doesn't have to be an attempt to cause controversy. Nor does it follow that just because someone might find something offensive then it shouldn't be done.

htj wrote: It doesn't have to be an attempt to cause controversy.

It doesn't have to be, but seriously, you painted up a little Hitler... What did you think was going to happen?

Nor does it follow that just because someone might find something offensive then it shouldn't be done.

I absolutely agree. But on the other hand, don't be surprised and shocked when you make offensive art if people are, in fact, offended.

pretre wrote:

htj wrote: It doesn't have to be an attempt to cause controversy.

It doesn't have to be, but seriously, you painted up a little Hitler... What did you think was going to happen?

Well, I didn't... but I see what you mean. Mini-Hitler was probably done in the same spirit as the Red Skull, a cartoonish villain, a parody of the actual man. If it was done in the spirit of mocking, then I do not consider that offensive at all. Quite the reverse in fact.

Nor does it follow that just because someone might find something offensive then it shouldn't be done.

I absolutely agree. But on the other hand, don't be surprised and shocked when you make offensive art if people are, in fact, offended.

But by what measure is it offensive? Is the very concept of a WWII German soldier offensive? The cause they fought for was abominable, yes, but they were still often brave and loyal men. The atrocities committed by soldiers in the second world war were by no means limited to the Axis side, after all.

htj wrote:But by what measure is it offensive? Is the very concept of a WWII German soldier offensive? The cause they fought for was abominable, yes, but they were still often brave and loyal men. The atrocities committed by soldiers in the second world war were by no means limited to the Axis side, after all.

Yes, the concept of WWII German soldiers led by Hitler is offensive to some people. Why? Because they don't like the concept. Were they brave men who fought for a bad cause? Yes. Is the idea still repugnant to some people? Yep.

It is offensive because people find it offensive. There are some things that are just not popular in the general population and often considered offensive. You are completely free to do them, but most folks know that they are going to be unpopular. If you make that choice, you also should accept the fact that you are going to get some flak for it.

Nazi armies, Confederate Armies, Female Space Marines, etc. If you post one, you know what you're doing.

I really dislike the term offensive. The way it is used generally implies that it is an absolute, that things can be subjectively offensive. I disagree with this completely, offense is always personal. So I'll not grant that this army is offensive, but I understand that some people will be offended by it. I do not happen to agree with them.

So, on that know, are you offended by this army, pretre? This isn't meant to be a leading question, I would just like to understand your position better.

htj wrote:I really dislike the term offensive. The way it is used generally implies that it is an absolute, that things can be subjectively offensive. I disagree with this completely, offense is always personal. So I'll not grant that this army is offensive, but I understand that some people will be offended by it. I do not happen to agree with them.

Something is offensive when people will be offended by it.
Webster: causing displeasure or resentment

So, on that know, are you offended by this army, pretre? This isn't meant to be a leading question, I would just like to understand your position better.

Nope, not really. I hope that the OP is just misguided and really thinks that this is a good idea and that he isn't just an AW.

My position is that it is a bad idea because it is going to cause him nothing but grief from the general populace.

Sure, someone can find something offensive, but that doesn't make it an absolute. It is merely offensive to them, it is not universally offensive.

Interestingly, most people on this thread have not been offended by it. The nearest we've had is people saying 'people are going to be offended.'

What's an AW? Or is it not translatable due to filtering?

htj wrote:Interestingly, most people on this thread have not been offended by it. The nearest we've had is people saying 'people are going to be offended.'

Fair enough. I'm not going to argue it. I think that it is a poor choice, but whatever.

What's an AW? Or is it not translatable due to filtering?

Attention Whore. Hopefully that 's okay to post. It's a common internet abbreviation.

Well, that makes sense. I can see why you feel that way, at the least. In the long run it's always going to come down to personal responses, but we both knew that at the start of course.

Huh, that is a new one on me. The abbreviation, not the term that is. That the filter did not catch it implies that it's safe for Dakka. I won't start throwing it around though.

If a person is offended by a WWII german IG army then the whole imperium of man should have you red in the face and attacking GW stores because they are all pretty much space Nazis who make a pount of killing anything that isnt the samw rtace as them.

great army btw i love it

DrChaos wrote:If a person is offended by a WWII german IG army then the whole imperium of man should have you red in the face and attacking GW stores because they are all pretty much space Nazis who make a pount of killing anything that isnt the samw rtace as them.

Umm, not quite. The Imperium doesn't like people who are the same species as them, but racism is not present in any great quantity (institutional or otherwise). Not to mention there's a big difference between glorifying the slaughter of millions of real people and pretending to kill not-real space elves and robots.

Oh damn, I was hoping we'd avoid all this.

POST EDIT:

Actually, I'm going to belatedly invoke Godwin's law here. This thread was over as soon as it started. Thanks for the discussion, pretre, I enjoyed it!

OP: Nice paint job on the army, well done for following through a theme, good luck with placating the offended. I particularly like the 109 paint job on the Valk.

And away I go!

htj wrote:Actually, I'm going to belatedly invoke Godwin's law here. This thread was over as soon as it started.

Exactly.

If your opening salvo invokes Godwin's, you know you're in for a good time.

Is there really a difference
I mean is this guys plastic army of toy soilders going to go outside and start commiting mass murder, no they arnt. They will be used on a gameing board and they will used to pretend to shoot at other little soilders, and this has offended you.

How is he glorifying the slaughter of millions of people?
By making a themed IG army?
I suppose Flames of War as a game is promoting war then isnt it?

DrChaos wrote:Is there really a difference
I mean is this guys plastic army of toy soilders going to go outside and start commiting mass murder, no they arnt. They will be used on a gameing board and they will used to pretend to shoot at other little soilders, and this has offended you.

Obviously not. This is completely beside the point. Me wearing a SS uniform while I walk down the street doesn't mean that I will be committing mass murder either, but I can expect a negative response. Again, however, I am not offended by his army. I just think that he is asking for the flak he is getting (and may get if he brings it to a store) by choosing a controversial theme.

How is he glorifying the slaughter of millions of people?

He isn't really. I was talking about your comparison of the Imperium vs Nazi germany. It is a poor comparison.

By making a themed IG army?

No.

I suppose Flames of War as a game is promoting war then isnt it?

All wargames promote war. I think you mean't 'promoting mass murder'. It is much different to include a WWII german themed army in a game about WWII. That is, after all, the point. Including a WWII themed army, with Hitler in it, in another game just shows that you are trying to make a statement. That statement may be taken poorly by some.

some narrow minded fools maybe...

I think the idea is innovative , personally I would have like to have seen a WW1 german force , that would have elminiated the connatations assoiciated with a scheme such as this , and I think WW1 fits better with the look of 40K

Great painting , like the red skull...

gives me an idea for a triwing valkrie

DrChaos wrote:some narrow minded fools maybe...

I understand your position and it is clear that you are not looking to debate it. Thank you for your time.



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Synthetik wrote:I think the idea is innovative , personally I would have like to have seen a WW1 german force , that would have elminiated the connatations assoiciated with a scheme such as this , and I think WW1 fits better with the look of 40K

Great painting , like the red skull...

gives me an idea for a triwing valkrie

I think that DKOK can help out a lot with the WWI kind of look and I would agree that that could have avoided this whole business.

DODcrazy wrote:The lines are often blurred and it isn't a good thing because most of the guys in the German army were simply doing their civic duty just like anyone else who serves their country.

Now that is true! Infact General Erwin Rommel himself didn't like the Nazi ideas and such at all. He just did his job.

And would it be more accepted if he had used death korps of krieg instead of regular guardsmen (now that I think of it, It would look awesome!)?

With that said, I really like your army! The scheme is awesome. And I especially like that sentinel. very nicely done!

Nice job on the Red Skull. What about Baron Von Stryker?


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DiDDe wrote: General Erwin Rommel himself didn't like the Nazi ideas and such at all. He just did his job.

And he was pretty good at it, too.

maybe if DKOK were done the iron crosses would have been Imperial Eagles...

htj wrote:The point being: the friction is coming from people taking offence and making the assumption that painting an army in the theme of German fascist forces is a blow for Neo-Nazism. Tell me, do you have a problem with Valhallans with red stars on their tanks? What about Praetorians with British flags?

Maybe he just likes the look of Nazis in films and games, you know, like he said. He wanted to paint a themed army and he did. It doesn't have to be an attempt to cause controversy. Nor does it follow that just because someone might find something offensive then it shouldn't be done.

I don't think that a Soviet-themed army nor a British-themed army either fit into the 40k universe. Yes, it is obvious where the inspiration for these *in-universe* factions come from, but that's a reason to play the faction that fits in the universe, rather than trying to break the fourth wall and play something that *doesn't* fit.

DrChaos wrote:If a person is offended by a WWII german IG army then the whole imperium of man should have you red in the face and attacking GW stores because they are all pretty much space Nazis who make a pount of killing anything that isnt the samw rtace as them.

great army btw i love it

Again, my problem here is that one set of atrocities actually happened, to real people, in real life, whereas the Imperium of Man is a fictional organization that whose atrocities (even against human beings) are so grandiose in scale as to be a pastiche of the topic.

Well if some people would have paid attention its not Hitler, its MR. HiLter from monty python. so that ends the complaints about him. i have plenty more characters. In fact im sure that no one noticed the pugilist nazi from indiana jones as Mr. hiLters bodyguard.

LordDeth wrote:Well if some people would have paid attention its not Hitler, its MR. HiLter from monty python. so that ends the complaints about him. i have plenty more characters. In fact im sure that no one noticed the pugilist nazi from indiana jones as Mr. hiLters bodyguard.

Oh, that clears it all up then. If Mr Hitler was supposed to be comic relief, why did you remove the pic with him in it? Seems like you were trying to cover up the Hitler part of the army.

Also, naming the thread '4th Reich Imperial Guard army' probably wasn't the best idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Reich

Great job. I like that you've gone with the "pulp" german army with the inclusion of the Red Skull and Dr. Jones's pugilist nemisis, rather than a straight-up historical homage (which I do have a bit of a problem with). I'm a big fan of Hellboy (great icon BTW), Red Skull, Indy, Castle Wolfenstein... lots to work with there.

I'd love to see more of your characters. How about Major Toht and Belloq as melting psykers?

Thanks. I didnt remove it btw. Ill put it back up but if its removed again then dakka clearly does not want it here.

Yea so this is him for those who havent seen.

We really need a 2nd Guard army in here, With Indi, Capt America, Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos and a bunch of US themed troopers.

The guy on the far left saluting is just hilarious

im pretty sure the reason this was removed was a mixture of the Reg. standard saluting and the pile of skulls on the hilters base haha

Beautiful models. Love what you did with the cloaks on the Sniper guys.

Love it, of course I would because I have an IG army based on WWI German forces with pretty much the same paint scheme. I love the way you painted the Iron Crosses to. I have them on my tanks but not on my Guardsmen. My army is the 223rd Reichland so its close in that regard also.

Everyone knows that the Iron Cross, German Eagle, and the term "Reich" were all in use long before the Nazis came around right? Did it say third Reich? No, it did not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The salute was also used by the Ancient Romans, although I can see how people have a problem with it in this context.

willydstyle wrote:It's funny, because I haven't actually seen anyone in the thread claim to be offended by the army. I have seen a lot of people be offended by the idea that someone else *might* be offended, however

Nobody has addressed the fact that the theme simply doesn't fit the universe, however.

I have seen cool theme armies that "don't fit the 40k theme." There are a couple cool USMC mordian armies out there, there are a few Star Wars themed SM armies, there are armies like the angry or pretty marines that look cool, but are really out of place, or tyranid armies that look like H R Giger stuff.

I appreciate the time and effort that go into making armies that are a little outside of the box. It is kind of refreshing to sit across the table from a outside of the box theme army.

willydstyle wrote:I don't think that a Soviet-themed army nor a British-themed army either fit into the 40k universe. Yes, it is obvious where the inspiration for these *in-universe* factions come from, but that's a reason to play the faction that fits in the universe, rather than trying to break the fourth wall and play something that *doesn't* fit.

Or maybe some people enjoy using their imagination and incorporating outside things into the 40k universe. What does or doesn't fit is certainly up to the player to decide, not somebody else trying to impose their restrictions on what can or can not be used.

I like this army, I think it's coherent and well painted, and I would have no issues playing against it, although I would also think it perfectly understandable if others chose not to do so.
Although the fascist Nazi regime was undoubtedly horrific, oppressive and it's demise well earned, I wonder if the axis powers had won the second world war if people would be having these very same discussions about someone painting their army in the colours of the 'evil' Americans and British? (And Russians of course) The ones taught in schools as the old enemies who both firebombed and flattened whole cities, deliberately killing millions of civilians, etc etc.
I guess history being written by the victors gives a whole new slant to things if someone else wins!

I really like this. I like the use of the Iron Crosses, especially on the sentinel. There's something about the one painted panel and the snug fit of the GW cross that goes together really well. Also, Red Skull = Fun.

I'm not going to repeat everyone else who argued that this army isn't offensive though. Yes, there are Nazi-fanboy armies out there but I also think that this isn't one of them. I'm a fan of WWI-WWII German military themed armies but only when they're done well and not regurgitating swastikas on every mini. I recall an army on Dakka somewhere that was resplendent with Germanic imagery and even propaganda from WWII. But at no point was there something that yelled 'Hello! I'm an ignorant smeghead who may/may not be racist and may/may not be trying to insult people' in that guys army. You sir, are not a smeghead.

I think I may have repeated people. Oops.

I like it, very well done.

willydstyle wrote:I don't think that a Soviet-themed army nor a British-themed army either fit into the 40k universe. Yes, it is obvious where the inspiration for these *in-universe* factions come from, but that's a reason to play the faction that fits in the universe, rather than trying to break the fourth wall and play something that *doesn't* fit.

Saying that this army doesn't 'fit' is ridiculous. In a universe where 8-foot giants wearing head-to-toe pink armour fight continuously with giant green cockney-voiced mushrooms, you're saying that an this incredibly realistic, militaristic-looking army is out of place? Because it's symbol is the Iron Cross and one of it's commanders has a red head? Rubbish.




My 2 cents:

Of course this topic MAY cause friction; that's merely stating the obvious. However, it seems to me that the issue is whether or not it should, to which the answer has to be no. The primary symbol used in this army is the Iron Cross - originally a Prussian symbol from the early 19th Century - this isn't in bad taste, although having said that, what qualifies as 'bad' taste is highly subjective. However it seems to me that any reasonable person ought not be offended by this army - it is very well painted & modelled, and seems to be done in good taste.

For argument's sake, if this army had swastikas on every soldier it would probably be in bad taste, however it was justified. However, as it stands, it is simply modelled after a real-life army, as are all other IG regiments - in fact, the Steel Legion itself is modelled after German WW2 paratroopers [http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Armageddon_Steel_Legion]. If someone put pictures up of their Steel Legion troops painted exactly like WW2 paratroopers I'm pretty sure no-one would have an issue with that.

In any case, I think that IG players should have the freedom to paint their guardsmen according to their own aesthetic preferences without being subject to unfair prejudice. If you thought that Vietnam-era US soldiers looked cool, go with Catachans. If you liked the look of the Soviet Red Army, then go for Valhallans. If you thought that the German Army during WW2 looked boss, then maybe go with a scheme like this. As previously stated, the German WW2 army was not synonymous with the National Socialist Party - there is nothing wrong with liking the 'look' of a period of German military history.

I think alot of people are really missing the point, either because they know nothing about history or they are just being bloody minded.
I'll repeat myself again, Nazi and German Soldier were two very different things....A good deal of the rank and file German troops were NOT Nazi followers, they were doing what was ordered of them by Hitler and his Govt. The German Army has a proud heritage and I see nothing wrong with theming an IG Army around the German forces. Yes the Nazi party was an abomination and I, like many others are glad it dissolved quickly after the war. However, you cannot discount it entirely from history, to do so would be short sighted. The German soldiers who gave their lives for thier country should be remembered, they were as brave as the American and British forces involved. Without Hitler as a catalyst we wouldn't be talking about this at all. You cannot blame a whole society for the ills of a few and Hitler was sick, driven and committed but sick.
Can we not just take this Army for what it is? A well converted and slightly satirical look at a force made up of well trained and dedicated soldiers?
What is wrong with people?

it's crazy how offended people get over this i modified a few of my chimeras to look like wwII panzers and painted them like the 8th panzer, first time i played with them i got screamed at.
on topic love the paint job wish my guard looked half that good

This armor looks great and painted well been thinking off making a german ww2 ig army my self as i respec the german army it self for what it was not the nazi part and there no need to be offended by this army nazi's where evil yes but the german army it self was in its own right and military history a great thing so making a army after it is just fine and tbh the russieens after invading germany was just as bad to the germans as the ss was to the russions

I have no problem with basing an army off of the image of the German WWII army. They were an incredibly good looking fighting force. My friends and I have commented several times that if WWII was a 40k tourney, Germany would definitely win for the best presented army. Sportsmanship, not so much...

The trick in basing any army off of a historical influence is to stay stylistically similar to the source, without making it an exact replica. The reason for this is two fold. Firstly, you will avoid being in a situation where you have potentially offensive things such as swastikas and the SS icon in your army, and secondly, it will look more like your army fits in with the background of 40k.

So basically you have to straddle the line of conveying the image of your source of inspiration, while at the same time staying true to the universe where the game takes place.

That said, I think your army looks great, and definitely looks like it fits into the 40k background. My only qualm is, do I spy a swastika on the left hand shoulder pad of the officer in the second pic?
Coz if so, not cool.

Well I for one think it's a sweet army. It's ridiculous how much time people waste fighting over this stuff.

And really, if OP happens to be a nazi, why shouldn't he get to champion his cause on the tabletop?

Almarine wrote:And really, if OP happens to be a nazi, why shouldn't he get to champion his cause on the tabletop?

lol
Now that's a great quote.
So we should now champion our political views in our 40k games? Can I put 'NObama' bumper stickers on my rhinos? Maybe I'll make the Cabal of Fiscal Responsibility dark eldar army.

Yeah...

Almarine wrote:
And really, if OP happens to be a nazi, why shouldn't he get to champion his cause on the tabletop?

Because I'm sure I could quite easliy get enough people on this site together for a road trip to his house and kick his ass?

(I may be joking. Well, definitely joking about my ability to kick anyone's ass, but not my desire to do so if said claims to be a Nazi).

pretre wrote:Maybe I'll make the Cabal of Fiscal Responsibility dark eldar army.

Power from Deficit Reduction.

I'm offened that there isnt anything to be offended about.

I really like the look and feel of this army. Everything looks like it fits the theme and the nod to computer games and comic characters is great.

Good theme, cohesive paint job. It's certainly giving me ideas for the direction of my quasi Soviet/Tsarist themed IG.

Those saying the German WW2 painting scheme does not fit the 40k universe need to look deeper in the lore.

The Imperium is a "country" where if you do not follow its "leaders" (Mainly the Emperor), you, your friends, your family are going to get interrogated then killed by the inquisition. The guard are the mechanised army with tons of body to spare. They are there to capture new territory for the Imperium of Man and defend the captured territory.

The 1930s tp 1945 germany had the SS that did terrible things. If you were "suspected" of "treachery", you, your family, your friends were getting interrogatted then killed. Sounds familiar no?. The German army was nothing more than civillian doing their duty for the most part. The german army had the best tank of WW2 (Tigers) IIRC and a pretty damn good air force. They had a lot of men in their army too.

Now we are comparing a dictatorship of the 1940s to another one in the 40k year. How is that not in context? How is the Nazi germany not the same as the imperium??

That said, I am not a facist nor a supporter of the old/new nazi philosophy.


Oh and awesome paint scheme! I love how they are painted, nicely done!!!


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Mr. Burning wrote:

Good theme, cohesive paint job. It's certainly giving me ideas for the direction of my quasi Soviet/Tsarist themed IG.

that will look nice!!

Serder wrote:Now we are comparing a dictatorship of the 1940s to another one in the 40k year. How is that not in context? How is the Nazi germany not the same as the imperium??

Because one is fiction about space men, elves and orks and one is about a regime that killed 6 million jews and started WWII. Even though there are similar themes, there is a big difference in fiction about purging mutants and chaos cultists and the fact of killing real innocent people.

Also, I posted this earlier, but the '4th Reich' that the army is named after is the belief in Neo-Nazi communities that through their beliefs Hitler's Third Reich can return in the future. Either a SUPER poor choice for an army name or an intentional espousal of neo-nazi ideals.

Great colour scheme! I love the Red Skull colonel!!! My suggestion is to add a count-as Sly Marbo modeled on the nazi sandman of Hellboy!

... for those who are offended... My family had members tortured by nazi-fascists and in a square 100 meters awy from my house 29 partisans have been killed by Nazis... But I can make a distinction between the horrible reality and a plastic toy soldiers game. Personally I'm making a 3rd reich themed ork army... (Right now I'm modeling my hitler gretchin )


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... just please do not make comparisons between the fictional wh40k horrors, and the REAL WW2 horrors... THIS is offensive. Not making a pun nazi army....

punkow wrote:Great colour scheme! I love the Red Skull colonel!!! My suggestion is to add a count-as Sly Marbo modeled on the nazi sandman of Hellboy!

... for those who are offended... My family had members tortured by nazi-fascists and in a square 100 meters awy from my house 29 partisans have been killed by Nazis... But I can make a distinction between the horrible reality and a plastic toy soldiers game. Personally I'm making a 3rd reich themed ork army... (Right now I'm modeling my hitler gretchin )

Give him a small easel and some dodgy watercolours for sale as well!

That's a great army, I love the red skull.

pretre wrote:

Serder wrote:Now we are comparing a dictatorship of the 1940s to another one in the 40k year. How is that not in context? How is the Nazi germany not the same as the imperium??

Because one is fiction about space men, elves and orks and one is about a regime that killed 6 million jews and started WWII. Even though there are similar themes, there is a big difference in fiction about purging mutants and chaos cultists and the fact of killing real innocent people.

Also, I posted this earlier, but the '4th Reich' that the army is named after is the belief in Neo-Nazi communities that through their beliefs Hitler's Third Reich can return in the future. Either a SUPER poor choice for an army name or an intentional espousal of neo-nazi ideals.

Could some fiction that deals with purges and neo fascisim also have allegorical references?

I hope that neo nazis browising the interwebs for details on the 4th Reich come across plastic pew pew army mens!

pretre wrote:

Serder wrote:Now we are comparing a dictatorship of the 1940s to another one in the 40k year. How is that not in context? How is the Nazi germany not the same as the imperium??

Because one is fiction about space men, elves and orks and one is about a regime that killed 6 million jews and started WWII. Even though there are similar themes, there is a big difference in fiction about purging mutants and chaos cultists and the fact of killing real innocent people.

Also, I posted this earlier, but the '4th Reich' that the army is named after is the belief in Neo-Nazi communities that through their beliefs Hitler's Third Reich can return in the future. Either a SUPER poor choice for an army name or an intentional espousal of neo-nazi ideals.

I was not comparing the fiction vs reality. I was comparing the two "country" (really, I can't find a better word that englobes both the Imperium and germany). Reich was actually the name the german were calling their country from 1871 to 1945 and the German Reich means the German Empire. If you know your history, you'll know that the Nazi political party (can't remember the Big name of Hitler's party) gained power in 1934 and lost it when Germany was defeated in 1945 IIRC. So the Reich or Empire to use English instead of German was existing more than 60 years before Hitler came to power. So Reich does not mean Nazi, reich means Empire. So how is the 4th Empire IMperial army not in context with the Imperium of man? Also, the black cross with red and black and white is used with the black templars.

Overall, nice paint scheme and do not get offended by a red and blackish paint scheme with a black cross as a logo.


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punkow wrote:
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... just please do not make comparisons between the fictional wh40k horrors, and the REAL WW2 horrors... THIS is offensive. Not making a pun nazi army....

Was not trying to offense any one. I wanted to put in evidence that the army paint scheme was in context by differencing the SS/Nazi-German army with Inquisition-Guard. My bad if I offended you, there was really no abd intention in my post.

I love those snipers. The capes were perfect!

Society worries me. I mean, on one hand; people get offended by small things like German themed armies, and on the other; one of the most popular games of the generation has an entire game mode with Nazi zombies...

I love the army, the paint scheme is very good, and I personally think they suit the universe rather aptly. *tips hat*

Serder wrote:So the Reich or Empire to use English instead of German was existing more than 60 years before Hitler came to power. So Reich does not mean Nazi, reich means Empire. So how is the 4th Empire IMperial army not in context with the Imperium of man?

You can say the same thing about Swastikas and their use in many societies prior to the Nazis. The point is that the 4th Reich is a specific neo-nazi term, just as the swastika is a specific nazi symbol, regardless of previous connotations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Reich

So your just saying that you can't see past one thing to see another really if some one makes a swastika for thier religion and not the nazi swastika that is tilted ( as only a title swastika is the nazi one ) your gonna say nazi ? thats just poor really then we could condem just about every single army for something in 40k :p to something horrible in reallife

pretre wrote:

Serder wrote:So the Reich or Empire to use English instead of German was existing more than 60 years before Hitler came to power. So Reich does not mean Nazi, reich means Empire. So how is the 4th Empire IMperial army not in context with the Imperium of man?

You can say the same thing about Swastikas and their use in many societies prior to the Nazis. The point is that the 4th Reich is a specific neo-nazi term, just as the swastika is a specific nazi symbol, regardless of previous connotations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Reich

Sooo, how about we stop playing 40k? The black templar have the Nazis black cross as an emblem. OMG GW ARE PARTNERED WITH THE NEO NAZISSS!!!!!!!!!!

no, 4th Reich is thetheme of the army. Sometimes, you have to expand your view of things and not be close minded. I'm pretty sure the guy did not think any offense as he said in his post that some people seems to have totally ignored. If you make a soviet themed army, are you a communist? If I make an ork army that like to loot things, does that make me a thief? According to your thinking, If you play warhammer and choose an army, you approve of their way of thinking. So all of us miniwargamer like to wage war and send billions of poeple to their death? No we do not, we play an army because we think it is cool. We paint it in a way that is nice looking (which op did)

Also, how about you go at Marvel and tell them your opinions about the Captain america movie and red skull. Hey there are nazis there too. Indiana Jones was trying to give ideas to neo Nazis too right? Oh, Nazis Zombies in MW2 (or was it WaW??) that means the Nazis are coming back? No it is entertaining and cool to watch/play. WW2 themed army are cool to paint, there is no more then this.

I mean, the nazis were a bad part of germany. 4th Reich might mean something that no one wants to see but the OP specifically said in his post that he did not intend it that way, that it was just a color scheme. If he would've named his army third Reich, you would probably have been going about how he supports Hitler right?

The name goes with the army which fits into the universe IMO. Why?? Because I know we are talking about plastic, metal and resine minatures and so I will not be offended by it. Didn't you see in the other posts?? Some of the people that lived the harshness of living under the Nazi regime are saying it is a nice army scheme. heck, one is even making a German themed ork army.

You also talked about fiction vs reality in on of your older post. How is this army realistic? Tanks with dozer blades, red skull, none of this is real, nor is the army.

kuso wrote:So your just saying that you can't see past one thing to see another really if some one makes a swastika for thier religion and not the nazi swastika that is tilted ( as only a title swastika is the nazi one ) your gonna say nazi ? thats just poor really then we could condem just about every single army for something in 40k :p to something horrible in reallife

I think you are missing the whole point. Swastika was an example and is not obviously present in this army or anyone's argument. Hitler and the Fourth Reich on the other hand...

Having just seen Captain America, I too got a hoot when I saw your Red Skull commander. I thought you did a really nice job on this army.

Offended about a army being themed after the army that the manufacture based the models on in first place? Wait... what?

Seriously I get a good chuckle out of people that are offended by WWII German themed armies; DKoK is far from the only German reference GW made. In fact:


Baslisk = Hummel in fact there's even a version of the Hummel with a shorter larger caliber gun, and that would be the Medusa.

LRBT = MKVII German tank the only real difference is the length of the tank.



Now if you REALLY want to be offended by Nazism shown in GW products, the next time you're paying attention to your Skaven armies watch for what is called a "Triskel" which is a Neo-nazi symbol. Of course the Triskel is seen in many different versions in history, but then I could say the EXACT same about the Swastika. As both Christians and Budist used the same symbol in the past ((going back a bit, but its there)).

pretre wrote:

kuso wrote:So your just saying that you can't see past one thing to see another really if some one makes a swastika for thier religion and not the nazi swastika that is tilted ( as only a title swastika is the nazi one ) your gonna say nazi ? thats just poor really then we could condem just about every single army for something in 40k :p to something horrible in reallife

I think you are missing the whole point. Swastika was an example and is not obviously present in this army or anyone's argument. Hitler and the Fourth Reich on the other hand...

You are missing the OP point!

Also just though about it. The imperium is represented by an eagle. What was on top of most Nazis banner...??????? an eagle. So all SM, IG, WH and GK player are supporting the Neo Nazis????

No they are not!

Go and read my post 4 post up this one


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Dracheous wrote:Offended about a army being themed after the army that the manufacture based the models on in first place? Wait... what?

Seriously I get a good chuckle out of people that are offended by WWII German themed armies; DKoK is far from the only German reference GW made. In fact:


Baslisk = Hummel in fact there's even a version of the Hummel with a shorter larger caliber gun, and that would be the Medusa.

LRBT = MKVII German tank the only real difference is the length of the tank.



Now if you REALLY want to be offended by Nazism shown in GW products, the next time you're paying attention to your Skaven armies watch for what is called a "Triskel" which is a Neo-nazi symbol. Of course the Triskel is seen in many different versions in history, but then I could say the EXACT same about the Swastika. As both Christians and Budist used the same symbol in the past ((going back a bit, but its there)).

True, totally missed that, lol, +1

TLDR: If the OP had named them the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division and not included a Hitler mini, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead he chose imagery that evokes nazi-ism intentionally or unintentionally to cause offense or drama. That's the problem I have.

Serder wrote:Sooo, how about we stop playing 40k? The black templar have the Nazis black cross as an emblem. OMG GW ARE PARTNERED WITH THE NEO NAZISSS!!!!!!!!!!

Strawman.

no, 4th Reich is thetheme of the army. Sometimes, you have to expand your view of things and not be close minded. I'm pretty sure the guy did not think any offense as he said in his post that some people seems to have totally ignored.

I didn't say I was offended. I said that this army was a poor choice because it is almost guaranteed to offend someone.

If you make a soviet themed army, are you a communist? If I make an ork army that like to loot things, does that make me a thief? According to your thinking, If you play warhammer and choose an army, you approve of their way of thinking.

Strawman.

So all of us miniwargamer like to wage war and send billions of poeple to their death? No we do not, we play an army because we think it is cool. We paint it in a way that is nice looking (which op did)

Strawman.

Also, how about you go at Marvel and tell them your opinions about the Captain america movie and red skull. Hey there are nazis there too. Indiana Jones was trying to give ideas to neo Nazis too right? Oh, Nazis Zombies in MW2 (or was it WaW??) that means the Nazis are coming back? No it is entertaining and cool to watch/play. WW2 themed army are cool to paint, there is no more then this.

Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

I mean, the nazis were a bad part of germany. 4th Reich might mean something that no one wants to see but the OP specifically said in his post that he did not intend it that way, that it was just a color scheme. If he would've named his army third Reich, you would probably have been going about how he supports Hitler right?

Use of the terms Third or Fourth Reich are both poor choices if you don't want to look like you are supporting that world view. If he had instead called them the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division and not included a Hitler mini, I would have been fine with the army and would have applauded him. Instead he chose imagery that specifically invokes nazi-ism instead of German Military imagery. That's the problem I have.

The name goes with the army which fits into the universe IMO. Why?? Because I know we are talking about plastic, metal and resine minatures and so I will not be offended by it. Didn't you see in the other posts?? Some of the people that lived the harshness of living under the Nazi regime are saying it is a nice army scheme. heck, one is even making a German themed ork army.

I never said that everyone would be offended by it. I said that it would offend someone and was a poor choice.

You also talked about fiction vs reality in on of your older post. How is this army realistic? Tanks with dozer blades, red skull, none of this is real, nor is the army.

They're also inches tall. I think that clued me in as well.

I don't feel like debating this anymore, say straw man like you want, I just used your arguments and turned them around and showed how they made no real sense as they can be used against most of what GW has done.

I would love to play the OP army and I think it is an awesome army. If some people find that offensive, so be it. Not my problem if they cannot make the difference between the nazis and the german army. And the 4th reich representing the neo nazis is not that widely known. I did not knew it was something that was associated with them until today. Perhaps OP is the same?!?!?

pretre wrote:

Almarine wrote:And really, if OP happens to be a nazi, why shouldn't he get to champion his cause on the tabletop?

lol
Now that's a great quote.
So we should now champion our political views in our 40k games? Can I put 'NObama' bumper stickers on my rhinos? Maybe I'll make the Cabal of Fiscal Responsibility dark eldar army.

Yeah...

hahahaahahahahahahahahahaha yes. Thankyou for saying the funniest thing I've heard all day.

I like it. Painting models this way should not a problem. It's like damning people for playing as Germany in WWII miniature games.

I imagine the IG this way regardless anyways.

Serder wrote:I don't feel like debating this anymore, say straw man like you want, I just used your arguments and turned them around and showed how they made no real sense as they can be used against most of what GW has done.

I would love to play the OP army and I think it is an awesome army. If some people find that offensive, so be it. Not my problem if they cannot make the difference between the nazis and the german army. And the 4th reich representing the neo nazis is not that widely known. I did not knew it was something that was associated with them until today. Perhaps OP is the same?!?!?

i just wanted to say that your taking a very mature stance on this, but the guy with the space wolf in his pic wont stop being offended by toys and trying to convince him that a person can have a themed army without wanting to cause a fuss or offend people may be a impossible task......

It wasn't just the 'Nazi' scientists as you insist on calling them. WWII sparked the biggest arms race since WWI. Radar, Sonar, Jets, Depth Charges, Submarines, Long Range Bombers, even Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles were all invented during WWII. Oh, and dont forget the harnessing of nuclear power.
So yes, we do have some things to thank the German war machine for.......

DrChaos wrote:the guy with the space wolf in his pic wont stop being offended by toys and trying to convince him that a person can have a themed army without wanting to cause a fuss or offend people may be a impossible task......

As I have said repeatedly, but apparently you are unable to see, I am not personally offended by the army. As I have also said repeatedly, I don't believe that the OP intended to make an army that offends. But again, he did. The choices he made, intentionally or unintentionally, are going to put some people's back up.

To repeat myself, "If the OP had named them the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division and not included a Hitler mini, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead he chose imagery that evokes nazi-ism intentionally or unintentionally to cause offense or drama."

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:It wasn't just the 'Nazi' scientists as you insist on calling them. WWII sparked the biggest arms race since WWI. Radar, Sonar, Jets, Depth Charges, Submarines, Long Range Bombers, even Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles were all invented during WWII. Oh, and dont forget the harnessing of nuclear power.
So yes, we do have some things to thank the German war machine for.......

Yes you are right sir, I was just trying to keep it simple

pretre wrote:

Also, how about you go at Marvel and tell them your opinions about the Captain america movie and red skull. Hey there are nazis there too. Indiana Jones was trying to give ideas to neo Nazis too right? Oh, Nazis Zombies in MW2 (or was it WaW??) that means the Nazis are coming back? No it is entertaining and cool to watch/play. WW2 themed army are cool to paint, there is no more then this.

Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

What a ridiculous statement.

One of my 40k armies is a DE force that pillages, rapes & enslave all who they come across. In my mind, and in the mind of everyone I play, they are the antagonists. Even the DE themselves would recognise this. Your assertion that a 40k army is automatically a protagonist is quite ludicrous. Terrible rebuttal.

Also, for the record, anyone with any sort of eye for aesthetics can tell that the Nazi War Machine was a sexy piece of equipment, one that valued aesthetics above all else & therefore one that made a conscious effort to look good. With that in mind, modelling an army after them, for purely aesthetic reasons, is a good idea for anyone looking to make a sexy-looking IG force.

I am inclined to agree with Panda on his last comment for sure

I think the red is silly for an army that is otherwise in camouflage. Keep it for flags, banners etc. but not on the vehicles and troops themselves. Definitely like the Red Skull officer.



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pretre wrote:

Almarine wrote:And really, if OP happens to be a nazi, why shouldn't he get to champion his cause on the tabletop?

lol
Now that's a great quote.
So we should now champion our political views in our 40k games? Can I put 'NObama' bumper stickers on my rhinos? Maybe I'll make the Cabal of Fiscal Responsibility dark eldar army.

Yeah...

I was thinking that yesterday actually. It would be quite funny if the purity seals were turned into advertising messages or political slogans. Simple things like 1/2 price off or Sale On, vote Palin or whatever. Or Rhinos with peace symbols and bumper stickers like "Save the Orks".

"Save the Orcs" Epic I exalted this
Although it would probably be more along the lines of "Save the Eldar" since they are the dying race

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:

pretre wrote:Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

One of my 40k armies is a DE force that pillages, rapes & enslave all who they come across. In my mind, and in the mind of everyone I play, they are the antagonists. Even the DE themselves would recognise this. Your assertion that a 40k army is automatically a protagonist is quite ludicrous. Terrible rebuttal.

It's okay that you don't know the definitions of protagonist and antagonist. You can just say that instead of trying to say my rebuttal is terrible.
protagonist: a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event
Note that it isn't 'the good guy'
antagonist: the adversary or opponent
Note that it isn't 'the bad guy'

So when you are playing your DE, from your perspective they are the protagonist whether they are fighting against Hitler, Justice League or the Ultramarines. Whoever they are fighting, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus is the antagonist. The opponent. I bring this up because in each example you listed you described the antagonist from the movie, game or work of fiction. They aren't meant to be played as protagonists for exactly the reason that this thread has stretched to pages.

Also, for the record, anyone with any sort of eye for aesthetics can tell that the Nazi War Machine was a sexy piece of equipment, one that valued aesthetics above all else & therefore one that made a conscious effort to look good. With that in mind, modelling an army after them, for purely aesthetic reasons, is a good idea for anyone looking to make a sexy-looking IG force.

Agreed. And if you avoid Swastikas, Hitler and his Third/Fourth Reich BS and focus on the Actual German Warmachine, as I indicated earlier, that would be an awe-inspiring army.

pretre wrote:It's okay that you don't know the definitions of protagonist and antagonist. You can just say that instead of trying to say my rebuttal is terrible.
protagonist: a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event
Note that it isn't 'the good guy'
antagonist: the adversary or opponent
Note that it isn't 'the bad guy'

I know very well what the dictionary definitions of both protagonist & antagonist are, even if you wish to condescendingly presume otherwise. However you seem to have completely missed my point. Let me reiterate it for you.

Your original point was that it is ok for Nazis to be portrayed in fictional media so long as they are not the protagonists. Now, I see the connection you are trying to make, but by your own definition, the protagonist does not necessarily mean the good guy - there is such a thing as heroic antagonists & villainous protagonists. What you are trying to say is that they should not be portrayed as the 'good guys'. They can however, be portrayed very wel as protagonists - ever seen the film Downfall? The protagonist in that film was (dum dum dum) The Fuhrer himself, however he wasn't portrayed as a hero at all, but a villainous protagonist. Therefore we see that Nazis can be portrayed as protagonists, so your original quote:

pretre wrote:Those are all the antagonists, not the protagonists.

While being an astute observation, is a pretty bad rebuttal.

pretre wrote:So when you are playing your DE, from your perspective they are the protagonist

Correct! In a similar vein, when I play my Nazi army, from my perspective they are also the protagonist.

pretre wrote:They aren't meant to be played as protagonists for exactly the reason that this thread has stretched to pages.

Ok, but what about when I play against a Nazi army - from my perspective they are the antagonists. By your logic, they are justified in being there, because they are not protagonists. On that note, ANY Nazi army will be a protagonist to somebody, therefore when you say "they aren't meant to be played as protagonists" do you mean they shouldn't be played at all? Well why didn't you say so in the 1st place?

pretre wrote:They aren't meant to be played the 'good guys' for exactly the reason that this thread has stretched to pages.

Fixed it for you.

Way to ignore the most important part of my reply... If he ditched the Reich and hitler crap, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

pretre wrote:Way to ignore the most important part of my reply... If he ditched the Reich and hitler crap, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

You posted this part of your reply in agreement with something i had previously said, remember?

pretre wrote:

TheBlueRedPanda wrote:Also, for the record, anyone with any sort of eye for aesthetics can tell that the Nazi War Machine was a sexy piece of equipment, one that valued aesthetics above all else & therefore one that made a conscious effort to look good. With that in mind, modelling an army after them, for purely aesthetic reasons, is a good idea for anyone looking to make a sexy-looking IG force.

Agreed. And if you avoid Swastikas, Hitler and his Third/Fourth Reich BS and focus on the Actual German Warmachine, as I indicated earlier, that would be an awe-inspiring army.

So I didn't really ignore it, as there was nothing more to say on the matter - we both agree on this point.

However, it's kind of hypocritical of you to say such a thing in a post that has almost completely ignored all of my reply.

wow!! I like it!

LordDeth wrote:Yea so this is him for those who havent seen.

Is that Maj. Armstrong I see there?

this thread is becoming ridiculous and pointless... nobody is talking about the OP's army...and after seeing idiots saying crap like " not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong... WW2 improved the technology..." I wish MODquisition will act swiftly and without mercy

Yes.....well..

TNT. We Know Drama.

Anyway, the army looks really good. I like the color scheme, well painted. I really like the fallschirmjager unit. I have to say that the snipers look really good, despite the not so camouflaged look, but as the OP entitled them, they are "propaganda snipers" which I can totally see.

-Gorg

pretre wrote:Way to ignore the most important part of my reply... If he ditched the Reich and hitler crap, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

Calm down guy. You think your putting people in their place or something by putting up wiki definition links and whatnot. Hitlers dead get over it. You seem to be fanatically defending people who might get offended as if you were a holocaust survivor yourself. Well my grandfather died in a concentration camp.

Anyways i appreciate most of the feedback. I will put up some more pics of new stuff in the near future. I was actually thinking of making the lost ark and using it as a psyker battle squad.

My grandfather fell from a watchtower btw. lol

punkow wrote:this thread is becoming ridiculous and pointless... nobody is talking about the OP's army...and after seeing idiots saying crap like " not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong... WW2 improved the technology..." I wish MODquisition will act swiftly and without mercy

Son, without war this planet would be 50 years or so behind the current tech state we are in now......it really isn't crap. And I already have commented on the army, I like it!
Also, there is one thing I do take offence to, and that's being called an idiot by someone who should know better. Grow up guy!

Saying that ww2 themes have no place in the 40k universe is silly.
DKOK is ww2 French, and Steel Legion is ww2 German.

I really liked the theme and execution of the color scheme. Aside from the bright red flags as cloaks on the snipers, looks cool, but functionally silly.

Great army, ignore the arseholes arguing over nothing, it is your army, you have painted and modelled it, so all the power to you my friend.

I've not read the thread, so here are my thoughts. I would be more concerned that the OP desperately wants it to be a 4th Reich army than what is actually depicted. There aren't any swastikas, with all the maltese crosses and the colour scheme it look more prussian - WW1 german to me, not WW2 nazi.

But if the OP want to then make it a '4th reich' then it's up to him, I have to say that that isn't my first impression on seeing the army.

Anyway, mostly I like the crosses on things, the knights templar - pre-WW1 prussian look. I think the painting is of a good standard. The only figure I don't like is here.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2011/8/10/910934f22bf5848e85c03ca348910392_47450.jpg

The one on the far right, he's just in red with a cross on him, it's too close to the source material. The other two are more stylised, he just looks like you couldn't think of another variant.

I think the army look just fine as it is, if you leave the 4th reich, Hitler and nazi crap out of it. Because the theme, the older empire look with maltese crosses looks great, but to then stick hitler in and call it the 4th reich, well that just looks like an adolescent cry for attention in the "what can I do that's controversial" kind of way.

Everyone knows the imperium of man is a horrible fascist regime, but you approach that with some subtlety and ty to make the army look like it fits with the warhammer background, you don't just stick hitler in. That's dumb.

Wow - I cannot believe I am the first German who posts his opinions about this...


Actually, in Germany, NO ONE GIVES A gak about miniatures painted in those colours and with those symbols. You could even put a Swastika or SS Symbols on the models. Why? Because it maybe looks awesome? The Wehrmachts divisions had a certain "grimdark" feeling in the uniforms and motivs, so what?

Why are people so upset about the Nazis? Putting aside that they were responsible for the greatest massacre in history (until now), do you think anybody would be offended by 28mm plastic in Nazi colours if for example the vietnam war caused more deaths and had more countries involved? That's like saying "What? You paint a miniature army in the colours of the Southern American states?? They were Slaveholders, you &%§$@³!! "


There are still laws in Germany that forbid the swastika to be shown in public.
However, for Germans of my generation, WW2 is history.


Btw: I think the colour - combination of black - red - white is very appealing to the eye.

Neato looking army. Great Paint Job.

pretre wrote:TLDR: If the OP had named them the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division and not included a Hitler mini, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead he chose imagery that evokes nazi-ism intentionally or unintentionally to cause offense or drama. That's the problem I have.

Saying that the possibility of offending someone who cannot perceive the difference between reality and a tabletop war-game is not a reason not to do it. It's like when people say you shouldn't do something because it's unnecessary - so? The 4th Reich, and the Nazis had a very imposing, imperialist image - with the greys, reds and distinct crosses. One can appreciate this artistic feature without supporting their message.

punkow wrote:this thread is becoming ridiculous and pointless... nobody is talking about the OP's army...and after seeing idiots saying crap like " not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong... WW2 improved the technology..."

Wow, thanks for calling me an idiot. I really appreciate it. Although I think you are mixing up the words 'crap' and 'facts'.

Not everything in Nazi Germany was wrong. This is a fact. Not crap.
WW2 improved technology. Again, also a fact. Not crap.

So maybe next time before you presume that because we are arguing we must be idiots, do a bit of research. We are adults, having a conversation about something which is quite relevant and topical for an army that is called '4th Reich IG army'.

Krellnus wrote:Great army, ignore the arseholes arguing over nothing

Again, cheers for calling me & several others 'arseholes'. I have already commented on how cool this army looks, and we are most certainly not "arguing over nothing". We are adults having a civilised discussion about a topical subject. If you can't handle that, don't resort to childish name-calling, and don't break rule no. 1. Be polite.

rakear wrote:DKOK is ww2 French

I think DKoK are more WW1 French, the whole trench/siege warfare thing is very WW1.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've not read the thread, so here are my thoughts. I would be more concerned that the OP desperately wants it to be a 4th Reich army than what is actually depicted. There aren't any swastikas, with all the maltese crosses and the colour scheme it look more prussian - WW1 german to me, not WW2 nazi.

Well unfortunately there is one swastika. But im not gonna say where it is. ill let someone find waldo.