Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a Tigershark was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.
As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.
According to the IA fluff... Its important to remember that the Tau continually underestimate what the Imperium can bring to the battlefield. Before the Taros campaign the Tau didn't belive in Titans... As far as I know the tau havn't come into contact with anything larger then Warhound. But I would guess that they would deal with anything short of an Imperator the same way everyone else does... Weight of Fire.
Wether they could deal with a Legion plus all of the armed Servitors and Skitari that go with it is another question.
Well, the Tau seem to do very well at range so I imagine they would use this tactic, or swarm the titan with suits perhaps. The best way to handle titans in my uneducated opinion is blast them with air power or from orbit... assuming the Tau have air superiority.
A full titan legion would require a lot of resources for the Tau to defeat as they would most likely be accompanied by substantial forces from the IG if not the Astartes. Something like that might just be a make or break situation for the Tau.
All of this outside of the game rules... the universe is quite different in the book fluff.
Fireknife wrote:They would probably use the Custodian, you know, the ship capable of holding SQUADRONS of Mantas.
You mean the ship that can't enter atmosphere?
Like Uhlan said: the assumption is that the Tau will have air superiority. That is going to depend on the world in question, and if the Tau are actually invading rather than taking a world that they've already infiltrated and converted to their cause.
That's what caused the most problems on Taros--the PDF by and large went over to the Tau, and they controlled the anti-ship and anti-air emplacements. The Raptors had to spike those defenses to ensure that they couldn't be retaken by the traitor PDF or Fire Caste and used against the Imperial forces as they landed. Which also meant that they couldn't be used to bring down the Tau aircraft that showed up later in the campaign.
With Railguns on tanks, railguns on battlesuits, railguns on aircraft. With fusionblasters on tanks, fusionblasters on battlesuits...erm, do you get the picture? They deal with battletitans the same way everyone else does when there are no superheavies or titans avaiable.
Harriticus wrote:Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a manta was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.
As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.
If I might add a couple of items.
The Warhound was taken out by a single Tigershark converted to carry two railguns, the A10 version, IIRC. (original, ForgeWorld, original ) The Manta never went near it. Which brings me to the second point, according to the book the attack was planned using seekers to overload the void shield and the railguns 'cored' it. It did not seem to be an act of deperation as I have inferred from your post.
Since the Tau never seem to get rid of something, unless it's to improve it, why shouldn't they just stick to a tried and trusted method?
Harriticus wrote:Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a manta was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.
As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.
If I might add a couple of items.
The Warhound was taken out by a single Tigershark converted to carry two railguns, the A10 version, IIRC. (original, ForgeWorld, original ) The Manta never went near it. Which brings me to the second point, according to the book the attack was planned using seekers to overload the void shield and the railguns 'cored' it. It did not seem to be an act of deperation as I have inferred from your post.
Since the Tau never seem to get rid of something, unless it's to improve it, why shouldn't they just stick to a tried and trusted method?
Cheers
Andrew
Well, imho the "tried and true" method you speak of is more akin to a rebel proton torpedo attack than a sure-fire way to take out a titan. Probably not the best allusion, but I think you get my point. Literary license to commit fluff atrocities abounds in the books.
Still, the event did occur, but drawing conclusions is still speculative. I think my statement still holds water though.
Like what everyone has said--air power and mass of fire. They took out an unsupported scout titan, but that probably wouldn't be particularly reliable.
The Custodian could only be useful in the sense any capital ship is useful in a ground engagement.
Because it was an improvisation to counter a threat they had nothing against and which they had never encountered. They caught the Imperium by surprise, taking out only one of their lowest Titan class. It's not going to work against a Reaver, or Warlord, or the Imperator. Their weapons are stronger, their defenses are stronger, their support is much better, their pilots have more experience, and despite what may be believed by many, the Imperium DOES learn, and adapts accordingly.
Since this is hypothetical. I would assume that a Tau force that ran into a Titan legion would be in some serious trouble after getting trounced heavily they would take a step back and do one of two things: 1) Determine if any existing tech could be modified to take on the threat (see IA:3). Maybe a modified Manta with more railguns and less cargo area and heavier shields/armor. 2) Create new tech to address it. Probably a new heavy ship like the Manta with some new weapons technology.
To me, one of the larger aspects of the 40k universe is that all of the factions are fairly well balanced. Sure, the IoM could invade and wipe out the Tau Empire fairly easily; however, they are unable to for various reasons and the Tau represent a comparatively minor threat. The Orks and Tyranids have the numbers to swamp any faction under but the Orks are just as happy to fight themselves and the Tyranids tend to swarm instead of actually utilizing winning tactics. The Eldar have the tech to beat any one faction but lack the numbers. etc. etc.
Tyranids and Tau are both billed as the most adaptable factions in the 40k universe so I imagine they would think of something after getting beat down a few times.
They would probably send in stealth teams to get inside the Voids,then fly up the legs insides,and fusion blaster the structure,all the while blasting the same point on the voids with Railheads,Broadsides and Mantas.
Against Emperors they have no chance.Whole Squadrons of warlords struggle to bring one down.They manage to do it,though not easily and unscathed.
If it was a full legion they might as well just blow themselves up.
For now Tau can't do a squat to bigger Titans then Warhound ( Warhound don't even have Void Shields ).
They would use mantas and Tiger Sharks ( the fact that they used space ship to bring down 1 scout Titan tells us something ), but they would need a lot more of them to bring down 1 Reaver Titan. But if Tau would advance into Imperial space in sort of some bigger force their main problem wouldn't be Titans - bur Imperial Guard and Space Marines.
For example take Taros numbers, increase them by 10x, add some well trained and good equipped Guard Regiment ( Krieg or Cadians with Vanquishers and Baneblades ) and 2 or 3 Space Marine chapters with full force ( 5 to 6 companies each with vehicles ) and any Tau force wouldn't stand a chance ( in fact forget that, Black Templars recapture Nimbosa system relatively easy with not more than 1000 marines ).
From Tau point of view, they still don't know the true size of the Imperium and consider Human a minor race that can be conquered easily. We are still waiting to see what will be with Tau if they face full invasion from some other race ( Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos... ) and what will happened with Commander Farsight who tell Ethereals to f*** themselves and created his own little empire on a border with the Imperium.
The funny thing about the Tau is that even though they have a codex they are a comparitively small "Empire". I think the toilet cleaners union in the IoM has more members. The Tau only exist because the IoM bureacracy is busy collecting back taxes on plant bumpkin which is 8 millenia in arrears.
Had the Imperial juggernaut focused on the Tau as a real threat with a Legion of titans and the corresponding escort I don't think anything could stop them.
That said, strap an air caste technician with explosives and drop him out of a manta orky style on top of the titan and... "Go for the Eyes!"
Uhlan wrote:The funny thing about the Tau is that even though they have a codex they are a comparitively small "Empire". I think the toilet cleaners union in the IoM has more members. The Tau only exist because the IoM bureacracy is busy collecting back taxes on plant bumpkin which is 8 millenia in arrears.
Had the Imperial juggernaut focused on the Tau as a real threat with a Legion of titans and the corresponding escort I don't think anything could stop them.
Tau Empire is a threat to the Imperium of Mankind as Montenegro is a threat to the United States of America.
Uhlan wrote:The funny thing about the Tau is that even though they have a codex they are a comparitively small "Empire". I think the toilet cleaners union in the IoM has more members. The Tau only exist because the IoM bureacracy is busy collecting back taxes on plant bumpkin which is 8 millenia in arrears.
Had the Imperial juggernaut focused on the Tau as a real threat with a Legion of titans and the corresponding escort I don't think anything could stop them.
Tau Empire is a threat to the Imperium of Mankind as Montenegro is a threat to the United States of America.
Ahhh, don't sell the Montenegrans short. It only took one Bosnian Serb to start WWI and bring down the Austro-Hungarian Empire! imagine what a montenegran could do... the mind boggles.
The main point to take away from the Taros incident isn't the size of the Titans and guns and all that stuff. It's that The Tau got whooped by Titans in the Damocles Gulf crusade and thought "OMG, we better invent something to deal with that". Then they did, then they killed a fething Titan. And they did it all in a shorter time that it takes for the Admistratum to file the paper on what happened. That's very bad for the Imperium.
Tau Empire has no chance. It would take roughly 3 Whole Marine chapters to take down the Tau Empire. Now that is saying something. In general it seems that the Tau Empire's only reason for existence is that they are almost non-existent.
First, tau haters, Gak off. The tau are in need of love, and stopp braking our frail self-confidence.
Second, the Imperium doesent gain anything in the long term on obliderating the Tau Empire. The other xenos the Tau hold off will bring more war on the Imperium then the Tau. Like the Orks and nids. The Tau are a (realatively) peace seaking nation and deafeating the Tau would only cause more problems then it would solve. Yes, a Titan legion would almost destroy the Tau empire. I admit to nothing else. But moving it from more needing fronts would cause huge amounts of recources, the loss off Imperial territory, and wouldent realy fix anything
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The main point to take away from the Taros incident isn't the size of the Titans and guns and all that stuff. It's that The Tau got whooped by Titans in the Damocles Gulf crusade and thought "OMG, we better invent something to deal with that". Then they did, then they killed a fething Titan. And they did it all in a shorter time that it takes for the Admistratum to file the paper on what happened. That's very bad for the Imperium.
I realize this is slightly off topic, but the topic is interesting. Still, they got the Titan as you say.
Other than the obvious 'anime' look to the Tau their existence is to present a vital, expanding empire counterpoint to that of a degenerate, bloated one plodding along by sheer inertia. Honestly, the loss of one warhound though tragic doesn't spell the end of the IoM.
If the IoM turned their lazy eye completely to the Tau I don't think they'd stop with deploying it's vast resources. I don't believe the Tau have any real idea how massive the resources are in the IoM. Not just one titan, but how about a reaver, a Warlord or a Titan Legion as has been mentioned. Now the tau have to stop 2, 3, 5, 10 deathstars with a Proton torpedo while keeping air superiority all the while.
I play the Tau, I love the little blue buggers, but I don't think they can advance fast enough to technologically outwit the IoM once it's bloated carcass starts moving.
As an aside, and I apologize, I think the Tau's greatest threat to the IoM is their 'ethics' and system of government. Militarily they don't stand a chance... as of now anyway.
Anyway, the biggest problem for the Tua vs a Titan Legion isn't really the Titan's.
It's that a full Titan Legion is always accompanied by it's own large Mechanicum space fleet. They never leave Titan Carriers unprotected, and they wouldn't completely bugger them out of the system when the Titans are still around.
So the point I'm making I guess is, if theres a Titan Legion around, theres a big fleet around, and if they have a big enough fleet around to still gain air superiority then the IoM forces didn't have a chance to begin with.
As for individual titan's. With current weapons tech, weight of fire is pretty much all they can do.
Or copy the Astral Claws action on the World Engine in a tiny scale.
Harriticus wrote:Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a manta was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.
As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.
It wasn't a Manta, it was a Tigershark. A single Manta should be able to handle a Reaver or Warlord just as easily. A couple Mantas should be able to handle an Imperator pretty handily as well. My guess, given the role that the Manta's serve in the Tau Empire, is that the Tau probably have access to more Manta's than the Imperium does Imperator Titans. Granted the Imperium is easily several hundred (thousand is more likely) times larger than the Tau Empire, but Imperators are described as ultra rare, etc.so who knows.
According to the IA fluff... Its important to remember that the Tau continually underestimate what the Imperium can bring to the battlefield. Before the Taros campaign the Tau didn't belive in Titans... As far as I know the tau havn't come into contact with anything larger then Warhound. But I would guess that they would deal with anything short of an Imperator the same way everyone else does... Weight of Fire.
Wether they could deal with a Legion plus all of the armed Servitors and Skitari that go with it is another question.
You mean ignoring the Titans that the Damocles Gulf Crusade deployed on Dal'yth? Taros was hardly the first time that they encountered a Titan, thats why the Tigershark was developed in the first place. The book Savage Scars mentions that seeker missiles proved to be the bane of the warhound titans and a couple were lost to them until the Marines figured out how to spot the ambushes, etc. Also worth noting is that, IIRC, the heavy railguns carried on the Tigershark and Manta are supposed to be based on the railguns carried by Tau warships. If they can do damage to an Imperial cruiser, they sure as hell can do damage to a Titan.
You mean the ship that can't enter atmosphere?
Where does it say that? Besides the fact that it doesn't need to enter the atmosphere, the fluff is full of instances where Imperial Cruisers entered a planets atmosphere, I see no reason why the Tau analogues couldn't do the same.
This thread is so full of ignorance of the fluff it makes me want to vomit. Warhounds don't have void shields? O rly? Tiger Sharks and Mantas are spacecraft (the Manta part is forgivable)?etc. etc. etc.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The main point to take away from the Taros incident isn't the size of the Titans and guns and all that stuff. It's that The Tau got whooped by Titans in the Damocles Gulf crusade and thought "OMG, we better invent something to deal with that". Then they did, then they killed a fething Titan. And they did it all in a shorter time that it takes for the Admistratum to file the paper on what happened. That's very bad for the Imperium.
I realize this is slightly off topic, but the topic is interesting. Still, they got the Titan as you say.
Other than the obvious 'anime' look to the Tau their existence is to present a vital, expanding empire counterpoint to that of a degenerate, bloated one plodding along by sheer inertia. Honestly, the loss of one warhound though tragic doesn't spell the end of the IoM.
If the IoM turned their lazy eye completely to the Tau I don't think they'd stop with deploying it's vast resources. I don't believe the Tau have any real idea how massive the resources are in the IoM. Not just one titan, but how about a reaver, a Warlord or a Titan Legion as has been mentioned. Now the tau have to stop 2, 3, 5, 10 deathstars with a Proton torpedo while keeping air superiority all the while.
I play the Tau, I love the little blue buggers, but I don't think they can advance fast enough to technologically outwit the IoM once it's bloated carcass starts moving.
As an aside, and I apologize, I think the Tau's greatest threat to the IoM is their 'ethics' and system of government. Militarily they don't stand a chance... as of now anyway.
Yes, the water caste has annexed far more Imperial worlds than the fire caste.
I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Somehow I have a feeling whenever the next Tau codex comes, they are going to evolve a lot more then since we have last seen from both the 4th ed. Codex and the Forgeworld IA book. Most likely Tau are going to change tactics completely, or bring out some major big guns.
Just had a butchers at AI3 for those that are interested and it was the AX-1-0 Tigershark that did the deed. Armed with a pair of Heavy Railguns and half a dozen seekers.
notprop wrote:Just had a butchers at AI3 for those that are interested and it was the AX-1-0 Tigershark that did the deed. Armed with a pair of Heavy Railguns and half a dozen seekers.
The Warhound has 2 void shields.
What were the actual tactics involved if you don't mind and if they're available?
chaos0xomega wrote:Where does it say that? Besides the fact that it doesn't need to enter the atmosphere, the fluff is full of instances where Imperial Cruisers entered a planets atmosphere, I see no reason why the Tau analogues couldn't do the same.
Orbital bombardments usually aren't especially useful for killing a single particular unit, even titan-sized. They're really hard to aim at that scale, and there's almost always something more important for a warship to be doing than trying to take down a single particular ground unit.
notprop wrote:Just had a butchers at AI3 for those that are interested and it was the AX-1-0 Tigershark that did the deed. Armed with a pair of Heavy Railguns and half a dozen seekers.
The Warhound has 2 void shields.
What were the actual tactics involved if you don't mind and if they're available?
One titan? A sufficent number of railguns, heavy railguns and superheavy railguns ought to do the trick. A titan legion? I refer to my previos post of why the Imperium wouldent send one. A tau titan? I dont think so... they would propably make a ship out off it so it would just be a space ship. At best capebel of flying within the atmosfare and firing its super-ultra railguns on titans at realatively close range...
chaos0xomega wrote: A single Manta should be able to handle a Reaver or Warlord just as easily. A couple Mantas should be able to handle an Imperator pretty handily as well. My guess, given the role that the Manta's serve in the Tau Empire, is that the Tau probably have access to more Manta's than the Imperium does Imperator Titans. Granted the Imperium is easily several hundred (thousand is more likely) times larger than the Tau Empire, but Imperators are described as ultra rare, etc.so who knows.
Handle by running away before the titan legion deploys, pulling out of the system to come back when the IoM has left maybe.
Other than that, wishful thinking.
Assets like titan legios won't walk alone, and sure as hell those mantas are nice slow targets.
chaos0xomega wrote:
You mean ignoring the Titans that the Damocles Gulf Crusade deployed on Dal'yth? Taros was hardly the first time that they encountered a Titan, thats why the Tigershark was developed in the first place. The book Savage Scars mentions that seeker missiles proved to be the bane of the warhound titans and a couple were lost to them until the Marines figured out how to spot the ambushes, etc. Also worth noting is that, IIRC, the heavy railguns carried on the Tigershark and Manta are supposed to be based on the railguns carried by Tau warships. If they can do damage to an Imperial cruiser, they sure as hell can do damage to a Titan.
Thougth a couple is more than 1... but maybe thats just the misinformed european I am.
Why don't you tell us what happened to the Tau attempts to swarm the titans?
Sure air Raids work so well when the sky is cleansed of all your machines....
chaos0xomega wrote:
This thread is so full of ignorance of the fluff it makes me want to vomit. Warhounds don't have void shields? O rly? Tiger Sharks and Mantas are spacecraft (the Manta part is forgivable)?etc. etc. etc.
Don't ya vomit on our keyboards.
Consider your own ignorance to the fact a Titan Legio is not deployed in minor conflicts.
Thus its most likely the Tau are just there, but not the opposition the legio was sent against. Could be chaos for exmple.
Now imagine the damage done to their reputation if it turn out the "backstabbing" of the Tau granted chaos a victory.
You know, Tau ability to identify friend and foe sucks.... and there are those who cheat like this bird-demon generator ....who loves blue..
chaos0xomega wrote: A single Manta should be able to handle a Reaver or Warlord just as easily. A couple Mantas should be able to handle an Imperator pretty handily as well. My guess, given the role that the Manta's serve in the Tau Empire, is that the Tau probably have access to more Manta's than the Imperium does Imperator Titans. Granted the Imperium is easily several hundred (thousand is more likely) times larger than the Tau Empire, but Imperators are described as ultra rare, etc.so who knows.
Handle by running away before the titan legion deploys, pulling out of the system to come back when the IoM has left maybe.
Other than that, wishful thinking.
Assets like titan legios won't walk alone, and sure as hell those mantas are nice slow targets.
Well, the Taros Campaign lists the Manta's max recorded speed as unknown, but it lists every other Tau aircrafts max recorded speed as 2100KPH (Barracuda, Tigershark, and even the Orca) so I think its safe to assume the Manta is capable of similar speeds as well. Besides the fact that it would need to be able of going much faster than that in order to achieve escape velocity and leave orbit. I would say that those Mantas are very very fast targets...
Thougth a couple is more than 1... but maybe thats just the misinformed european I am.
Why don't you tell us what happened to the Tau attempts to swarm the titans?
Sure air Raids work so well when the sky is cleansed of all your machines....
I recall there being a second titan that was lost to seeker missiles in Savage Scars. As for Tau attempts to swarm the titans I don't think there were any. And having the sky cleaned of all your aircraft... surely you're referring to the Imperium which lost all its air cover which allowed the Tau to evacuate the planet...
Consider your own ignorance to the fact a Titan Legio is not deployed in minor conflicts.
Thus its most likely the Tau are just there, but not the opposition the legio was sent against. Could be chaos for exmple.
Now imagine the damage done to their reputation if it turn out the "backstabbing" of the Tau granted chaos a victory.
You know, Tau ability to identify friend and foe sucks.... and there are those who cheat like this bird-demon generator ....who loves blue..
My own ignorance? Last I checked the Damocles Gulf Crusade, Taros, and a dozen other instances in the fluff could all be defined as 'minor conflicts'. The Damocles Crusade wasn't even a real crusading force, its own leaders stated as much. On both Taros and in the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Titans WERE deployed against the Tau. The forces sent were there specifically to fight them. I don't even understand what the second half of your post is trying to suggest.
Brother Coa wrote:
notprop wrote:
The Warhound has 2 void shields.
that's 2 points. Reaver has 4, Warlord 6, Imperator 8 or 10.
Do the math now...
And in fluff that is different than on table.
Except for the fact that the only official canon produced by GW is from the design studio (Black Library isn't canon, just supplementary fiction). Thus if the Apocalypse has warhounds with void shields (which it does, 2 in fact, not sure why you're saying it doesn't, I think you're confusing them w/ structure points (warhound has 3))... warhounds have void shields.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Except for the fact that the only official canon produced by GW is from the design studio (Black Library isn't canon, just supplementary fiction). Thus if the Apocalypse has warhounds with void shields (which it does, 2 in fact, not sure why you're saying it doesn't, I think you're confusing them w/ structure points (warhound has 3))... warhounds have void shields.
So that means that Viod Shields in IA are in fact Stuctural Integrity?
And everyone that mention Tau as a "force to be recond with" I will just say 3 words: NImbosa, Lagan, Zeist... "Force to be recond with" yeah right - send in the NEcrons they will invite them to join
chaos0xomega wrote:
Except for the fact that the only official canon produced by GW is from the design studio (Black Library isn't canon, just supplementary fiction). Thus if the Apocalypse has warhounds with void shields (which it does, 2 in fact, not sure why you're saying it doesn't, I think you're confusing them w/ structure points (warhound has 3))... warhounds have void shields.
So that means that Viod Shields in IA are in fact Stuctural Integrity?
What? No. Warhound titans have two Void Shields on top of three Structure Points.
Ah yes it was a Tigershark. Silly me edited my post.
The Warhound also does have void shields. I know that much.
I do agree that the Tau are being underrated here, which was not the intent of me posting this thread (rather it was just to discuss how they could take down bigger Titans...). The whole "3 Chapters of Space Marines could bring down the Tau" is silly, and it'd take much more then that and a very significant military operation for the Imperium to do it. Not 13th Black Crusade Level, but still significant. My personal belief on it is that the Tau Empire to the Imperium is what Imperial Japan was to the British Empire. They weren't going to conquer the whole British Empire or, but they were a dangerous regional threat and the British Military was to overstretched with other matters (such as WWII in Europe) to sufficiently protect their regional holdings. This is pretty much the situation for the Imperium. They aren't going to be destroyed by the Tau, but they are at risk losing many holdings on the Eastern Fringe and while they could destroy the Tau Empire if they put enough resources into it, Imperial forces are currently too stretched across the Galaxy to do so.
The "lots of Tigersharks and Mantas with Railguns" seems to be the main counter right now, but I suspect a larger Titan Legion with Warlords and the like would also have very significant air defense escorts to go with it: Hydras, Tarantula SAM Batteries, and a major military operation like that would invariably bring in Imperial Navy fighters as well.
The Warhound and Feral(Chaos Warhound)has 2 void shields and 3 SP.
The Reaver and Ravager(Chaos Reaver)has 4 void shield and 6 SP.
The Warlord has 6 Voids and 9 SP.
The Emperor has 8 void shields and 12 SP.
As you can see,each titan has 2 more voids and 3 more SP than the last,or the equivilent of a warhound.
Deadshot wrote:The Warhound and Feral(Chaos Warhound)has 2 void shields and 3 SP.
The Reaver and Ravager(Chaos Reaver)has 4 void shield and 6 SP.
The Warlord has 6 Voids and 9 SP.
The Emperor has 8 void shields and 12 SP.
As you can see,each titan has 2 more voids and 3 more SP than the last,or the equivilent of a warhound.
And Tau barely took down 1 Warhound.
They will need 3 Space Battle Ships to take down 1 Emperor
chaos0xomega wrote:
I recall there being a second titan that was lost to seeker missiles in Savage Scars. As for Tau attempts to swarm the titans I don't think there were any. And having the sky cleaned of all your aircraft... surely you're referring to the Imperium which lost all its air cover which allowed the Tau to evacuate the planet...
Have you read the book at all?
Got the impression youre either going from hearsay or can't remember, so may I fill in the blanks?
- Tau ambushed a single warhound, one who scouted forwrd without any support.
- ambushers were flushed out, and titans of any sort moved with support from now on
- Tau attempted to swarm the Titans in dense terrain with hundreds of suit teams.
- suit teams were swatted like flies, because the princeps learned not to underestimate their opponents.
- imperium was low on air support, but had enough AA support to keep the skies clear.
chaos0xomega wrote:
My own ignorance?
Exactly.
Only a certain level of alcohol would excuse it.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Last I checked the Damocles Gulf Crusade, Taros, and a dozen other instances in the fluff could all be defined as 'minor conflicts'. The Damocles Crusade wasn't even a real crusading force, its own leaders stated as much. On both Taros and in the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Titans WERE deployed against the Tau. The forces sent were there specifically to fight them. I don't even understand what the second half of your post is trying to suggest.
Seems you didn't understand anything of it. My bad. Should try again.
1) Tau are not part of major conflicts, thus unlikely to see whole Legios of titns deployed against them
2) if a Legio would be sent, it would bring some friends, so attacks would not go unchallenged
3) I'd guess the first time Tau encounter a full Legio is as a third party in a conflict.
4) Tau choose their friends not wisely, as shown in 5th ed. Taking sides may find them on the less beneficial side....
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
Taros is not a "massive loss" for the Imperium. If they cared about it they would have sent more than a dozen regiments. There was a war because an acountant noticed a clerical disparity. It's a backwater.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
Taros is not a "massive loss" for the Imperium. If they cared about it they would have sent more than a dozen regiments. There was a war because an acountant noticed a clerical disparity. It's a backwater.
To an Empire that cannot muster its full weight anymore, the forces sent were rather significant. In comparison to any other front, they were on par with other major battles across the IoM. The losses suffered were also significant, as even a single Titan falling usually ends up with someone being blindfolded and shot for stupidity.
I can't really recall much fluff for either, but if I recall right the difference in gameplay stats at least for a Manta and a Warlord Titan are not that big, the Manta being 2,000 points and the Warlord being 2,500.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
I don't know where this bit about the Space Marines comes from, but the loss of Taros was hardly a massive loss to the IoM. It is just one of millions of planets, it won't be (and wasn't) missed. In fact, I can't find any indication at all that Taros was to become anything other than what it was, a minor backwater world that exported mined ores.
I do agree that the Tau are being underrated here, which was not the intent of me posting this thread (rather it was just to discuss how they could take down bigger Titans...).
Depends how you look at it. Most of the Tau haters are underrating them. The Tau fanboys seem to be drastically overrating them. I think you put it best though, regional threat.
Brother Coa wrote:
And Tau barely took down 1 Warhound.
They will need 3 Space Battle Ships to take down 1 Emperor
Barely? yeah right... In Savage Scars Tau had no trouble bringing down a warhound with a couple of skyrays firing seeker missiles. In the Taros Campaign, it only took a single tigershark a single pass to take out a warhound in what was effectively a single shot. Thats not barely.
Have you read the book at all?
Got the impression youre either going from hearsay or can't remember, so may I fill in the blanks?
- Tau ambushed a single warhound, one who scouted forwrd without any support.
- ambushers were flushed out, and titans of any sort moved with support from now on
- Tau attempted to swarm the Titans in dense terrain with hundreds of suit teams.
- suit teams were swatted like flies, because the princeps learned not to underestimate their opponents.
- imperium was low on air support, but had enough AA support to keep the skies clear.
I don't recall the swarm part, I'll take your word for it. I recall there being a part in the book where its reported that the other battlegroups had encountered similar Tau defenses to what the main character experienced, and several other titans were reported destroyed as a result.
Kanluwen wrote:Where is this bit about "the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions" coming from?
Space Marine Codex 5th Edition
Zeist Campaign - Tau began growing to the point where they were anticipated to double their holdings in 50 years with enough resources to become a major threat on the EF.
Calgar sent out a call for assistance to various Chapters for help pushing the Tau back. Boatloads of Marines from various Chapters rolled up to drop the hammer, lead by Siccarius, the Captain many believe will replace Calgar, they pushed the Tau back. Point being, when Calgar has to step in, ask for help, then use his best Captain with a boatload of Marines in support you are a damn big threat.
Just sayin
Edit: Here's a better question, how many Tau worlds are in Imperial hands?
~zero~
How many SYSTEMS are in Tau hands?
DG - 1
Staging Area for Zeist Campaign - 1
And unless anything suggests otherwise, Taros and its system fell to the Tau. So perhaps another 1?
So about 3 we know of vs a handful of bloody reclamations like Nimbosa where the IoM got spanked to the last man twice and Lagan which is well... Lagan. If Tau aren't a threat, it's because the IoM doesn't want anyone to know they are getting wrecked in almost every major fight and have utterly lost the ideology war.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
Taros is not a "massive loss" for the Imperium. If they cared about it they would have sent more than a dozen regiments. There was a war because an acountant noticed a clerical disparity. It's a backwater.
To an Empire that cannot muster its full weight anymore, the forces sent were rather significant. In comparison to any other front, they were on par with other major battles across the IoM. The losses suffered were also significant, as even a single Titan falling usually ends up with someone being blindfolded and shot for stupidity.
Taros was a backwater. It was one of many planets tagged as resource-gatherers for a forgeworld, because a three thousand year old survey report indicated that it would be able to sustain increased tithing, which was required while the Imperium was gearing up for an actual major conflict during the run-up to the Thirteenth Black Crusade.
That's the thing about the Imperium mustering its full weight. It could swat the Tau like flies... if it didn't have to worry about endless armies of infinite evil spilling out of the Eye of Terror, or all-devouring swarms of biological killing machines, or the waves after waves after waves of orks out to destroy anything capable of shooting back.
We don't actually know that the Tiger Shark took the Warhound out in a single pass. Just that a Tiger Shark made a pass--and as I've said before, the Tau had to pull air support from other areas to protect the Tiger Shark. I also hate to say this again though, but Andy Hoare is to the Tau what Graham McNeill is to the Ultramarines.
And "a couple of Skyrays firing Seeker Missiles" is 16-24 missiles dependent on if it's 2 or 3 Skyrays. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
Taros is not a "massive loss" for the Imperium. If they cared about it they would have sent more than a dozen regiments. There was a war because an acountant noticed a clerical disparity. It's a backwater.
To an Empire that cannot muster its full weight anymore, the forces sent were rather significant. In comparison to any other front, they were on par with other major battles across the IoM. The losses suffered were also significant, as even a single Titan falling usually ends up with someone being blindfolded and shot for stupidity.
What are you talking about? When the Imperium sends a small force its like 100 regiments. The Damocles Gulf Crusade is an example of when the Imperium gives a damn. That was a minor crusade and it almost wiped out the Tau.
Kanluwen wrote:Where is this bit about "the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions" coming from?
Zeist campaign were Calgar ask for help to hold on Tau expansion. Don't worry we kicked their grey little but's there...
Brother Coa wrote:For now Tau can't do a squat to bigger Titans then Warhound ( Warhound don't even have Void Shields ).
They would use mantas and Tiger Sharks ( the fact that they used space ship to bring down 1 scout Titan tells us something ), but they would need a lot more of them to bring down 1 Reaver Titan. But if Tau would advance into Imperial space in sort of some bigger force their main problem wouldn't be Titans - bur Imperial Guard and Space Marines.
For example take Taros numbers, increase them by 10x, add some well trained and good equipped Guard Regiment ( Krieg or Cadians with Vanquishers and Baneblades ) and 2 or 3 Space Marine chapters with full force ( 5 to 6 companies each with vehicles ) and any Tau force wouldn't stand a chance ( in fact forget that, Black Templars recapture Nimbosa system relatively easy with not more than 1000 marines ).
From Tau point of view, they still don't know the true size of the Imperium and consider Human a minor race that can be conquered easily. We are still waiting to see what will be with Tau if they face full invasion from some other race ( Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos... ) and what will happened with Commander Farsight who tell Ethereals to f*** themselves and created his own little empire on a border with the Imperium.
Tau fans - your turn to troll.......
The Guard units involved on Taros were all well-trained and veteran, see: Elysians, Cadians, Tallarn. And a thousand strong marine force is stupidly strong from an in-universe perspective, almost as strong as plot armor
Kanluwen wrote:We don't actually know that the Tiger Shark took the Warhound out in a single pass. Just that a Tiger Shark made a pass--and as I've said before, the Tau had to pull air support from other areas to protect the Tiger Shark. I also hate to say this again though, but Andy Hoare is to the Tau what Graham McNeill is to the Ultramarines.
And "a couple of Skyrays firing Seeker Missiles" is 16-24 missiles dependent on if it's 2 or 3 Skyrays. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Don't forget that they use space shuttle to bring it down ( by putting space ship weapons on it ). If nothing else Tau can find solution in any battle ( like using Kroot rifles against Gorgon ). I bet that they use Manta and Tigershark to bring Void shields down and then they use Skyrays to soften it up for a final Tigershark blow.
And those missiles are not strong to penetrate Void shields ( even those weak as Warhound ones ) am I right?
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.
Wait what?
You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.
Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.
Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.
Taros is not a "massive loss" for the Imperium. If they cared about it they would have sent more than a dozen regiments. There was a war because an acountant noticed a clerical disparity. It's a backwater.
To an Empire that cannot muster its full weight anymore, the forces sent were rather significant. In comparison to any other front, they were on par with other major battles across the IoM. The losses suffered were also significant, as even a single Titan falling usually ends up with someone being blindfolded and shot for stupidity.
What are you talking about? When the Imperium sends a small force its like 100 regiments. The Damocles Gulf Crusade is an example of when the Imperium gives a damn. That was a minor crusade and it almost wiped out the Tau.
Once again, its typical GW fluff making a mockery of realistic numbers. They are trapped into such stupid situations because everything needs to just be bigger and better in the beginning and now 14 years later, it shows just how silly it really is.
It probably took a decent amount of resources for the Tau to knock down the Titan. Just because of the nature of what a Titan is. But there is no indication that it would be insurmountable or even resource draining for the Tau to take down one of the stupidly bigger ones.
Railguns work and from a long range away. You just need to bring a number of them equal to the size of what your shooting.
What would be cool is if the Tau came up with some sort of technology that shut down the void shields for a time. Kinda like giving the aliens in ID4 that temporary virus. Imagine the shock. It would be awesome. IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.
Retribution wrote:
The Guard units involved on Taros were all well-trained and veteran, see: Elysians, Cadians, Tallarn. And a thousand strong marine force is stupidly strong from an in-universe perspective, almost as strong as plot armor
Tallarn who are Hit and Run not direct assault troops.
Elysisans who are paratroopers and not defensive troops.
1 Cadian and 1 Krieg Regiment.
Most of the attack force was Tallarns. They are good for raids but not for trench warfare or for massive battles. Adn they used Elysians t odefend a rafinery ( Arnhem anyone? )
2 Regiments who were actually for this kind of warfare are not enough for this.
And I will not even start about Space Marines minimum involment. They have Terminators for Emperor's sake.
And Tau had help from planet population ( 12.000.000 people ) + their guns + local gangs. Not to mention that Imperial navy forget to protect supply ships from raids.
3 year old child would better organised Imperial forces there, even Abbadon would succeed conquering Taros.
Whoa, Whoa. Tallarns were the absolute best troops to use in that war. It was one of the only things the IoM did right in that battle. If they were any other regiment they all would have died after 3 days. Give those guys some credit.
Retribution wrote:
The Guard units involved on Taros were all well-trained and veteran, see: Elysians, Cadians, Tallarn. And a thousand strong marine force is stupidly strong from an in-universe perspective, almost as strong as plot armor
Tallarn who are Hit and Run not direct assault troops.
Elysisans who are paratroopers and not defensive troops.
1 Cadian and 1 Krieg Regiment.
Most of the attack force was Tallarns. They are good for raids but not for trench warfare or for massive battles. Adn they used Elysians t odefend a rafinery ( Arnhem anyone? )
2 Regiments who were actually for this kind of warfare are not enough for this.
And I will not even start about Space Marines minimum involment. They have Terminators for Emperor's sake.
And Tau had help from planet population ( 12.000.000 people ) + their guns + local gangs. Not to mention that Imperial navy forget to protect supply ships from raids.
3 year old child would better organised Imperial forces there, even Abbadon would succeed conquering Taros.
Tallarns and Elysians are not a good choice for shock attack desert warfare?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Whoa, Whoa. Tallarns were the absolute best troops to use in that war. It was one of the only things the IoM did right in that battle. If they were any other regiment they all would have died after 3 days. Give those guys some credit.
I did, I said that they are excellent for raids and desert combat ( much of Taros is desert after all ).
But when it comes to city fight....not so much. And they are definitively not for trenches...
Like I said:
Elysisans are best for storm action - on Taros they were in trenches defending refinery ( as I said: Arnhem anyone? ).
Tallarn are best for hit and run tactics and fast attacks. And they use them in city fight.
It; like using Whiteshields to fight Daemons of Chaos - they are not trained for that kind of situation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jayden63 wrote:IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.
This point is irrelevant...
If they win everything how is that they are losing war for survival?
Kanluwen wrote:We don't actually know that the Tiger Shark took the Warhound out in a single pass. Just that a Tiger Shark made a pass--and as I've said before, the Tau had to pull air support from other areas to protect the Tiger Shark. I also hate to say this again though, but Andy Hoare is to the Tau what Graham McNeill is to the Ultramarines.
And "a couple of Skyrays firing Seeker Missiles" is 16-24 missiles dependent on if it's 2 or 3 Skyrays. That's nothing to sneeze at.
They didn't all fire. IIRC, the total count was about 10 missiles to bring down the void shields and blow up the titan.
And those missiles are not strong to penetrate Void shields ( even those weak as Warhound ones ) am I right?
Wrong. Both on tabletop and in universe they are more than good enough to handle the situation. As for the rest of your post, the tigershark came in low and fast, fired its own seeker missile to drop the void shield and then a single shot from its railguns destroyed the titan. Interestingly enough, the next paragraph states that Imperial commanders thought that only Tau Manta were capable of posing a threat to Titans, and that they were proven wrong. The Tigershark carries the same railguns as the Manta. This means that Tigersharks pose a similar level of threat to Imperial titans as Mantas.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
100 Regiments isn't small at all.
Yeah it is, and Damocles Gulf had a lot less than that, only 19 in fact.
Hell, the current US army has more than 100 regiments...
Elysisans are best for storm action - on Taros they were in trenches defending refinery ( as I said: Arnhem anyone? ).
Tallarn are best for hit and run tactics and fast attacks. And they use them in city fight.
Please read the book. Neither of these points are true. Elysians were used as drop troops to storm and seize a hydroprocessing facility. The tau destroyed them.
The Tallarn presented the bulk of the Imperial ground force and were used on an advance against the Tau holdings. They never entered the city of Tarokeen.
Kanluwen wrote:We don't actually know that the Tiger Shark took the Warhound out in a single pass. Just that a Tiger Shark made a pass--and as I've said before, the Tau had to pull air support from other areas to protect the Tiger Shark. I also hate to say this again though, but Andy Hoare is to the Tau what Graham McNeill is to the Ultramarines.
And "a couple of Skyrays firing Seeker Missiles" is 16-24 missiles dependent on if it's 2 or 3 Skyrays. That's nothing to sneeze at.
We do know it was a single pass, as that part was spelled out in the book. I also thought that it was the AX10 on its' own that totaled the WarHound, I can't remember any other items of support. But I could be wrong on that IIRC there was minimal air support for the AX10, because no-one really ruled the skies at that point. Also, again, IIRC the WarHound did have ground support in the form of the SM chapter at Taros. It was a breakout of the stalemate with the 4 titans and SMs to break through the Tau lines.
Cityfight? Did they even make it into the city?
Problem was IoM forgot to bring.......water. Figured that problem would take care of itself. Fortunately, it turned out Tallarns don't need water to march 20 miles a day and fight. It's an almost superhuman ability they posses. Like I said any other race would have dropped dead in the desert after a few days.
Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)
I can see three ways the tau could fight a big titan.
1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.
2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.
This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.
Brother Coa wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jayden63 wrote:IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.
This point is irrelevant...
If they win everything how is that they are losing war for survival?
When it comes to the Tau, it seems like the IOM fans come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter. Pretty boring if your young upstart gets squashed before the race even begins. Thats my point. Obviously the Tau are doing something right. So yeah, by the very nature that they are going to continue as a presence in the 40K world means they can play on the same level as the big boys.
1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.
The Tau do not fight a fight they cannot win, to them it is not cowardice but simple logic. Your other suggestions make more sense.
2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.
3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.
Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.
This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.
I don't think that is a safe assumption. Look at the railrifle, it went from prototype to field use in a very short time to meet a specific function of marine killer. I dont see any reason for the AX10 not to meet the same advancement.
Yeah it is, and Damocles Gulf had a lot less than that, only 19 in fact.
Hell, the current US army has more than 100 regiments...
U.S. Army Regiments aren't 40KIG Regiments by a long shot.
Keep in mind that sending 100 Regiments to a front is a massive undertaking. Just think the 13th Black Crusade... Even with unbelievable resources pulled even the IG has its limits. While they can fight a war of attrition they also have to fight their own logistics. Which is why PDFs are such an important mainstay of the Imperium.
4. landmine. All the titans i have seen are two leg. They are big easy to see and track (I assume slow, but you never know.) You could figure out where it is going and plant a huge bomb in it's path. Better yet, lure it into a area with a lot of caves and then drop the ground around it.
Jayden63 wrote:
When it comes to the Tau, it seems like the IOM fans come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter.
Brother Coa's ridiculous raging aside, the reason I "come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter" is because every single time the Tau are involved--they're layered in plot armor so thick it makes Captain Kirk look like Unnamed Brunette Red Shirt #56.
First off, we have the discovery of the Tau. They're savage brutes, on the brink of destroying themselves. The Imperium sends a colonization fleet to excise the race and take their planetary holdings.
This fleet is destroyed by "freak Warp Storms".
Next we have the Damocles Gulf Crusade--the Tau are able to stalemate a force that previously had been steamrolling them up until then. When the Imperium prepares for escalation of the Crusade and extermination--the Tau are suddenly ignored because of the arrival of the largest Hive Fleet yet to threaten the Imperium.
And then we have Taros. A desert world, with very little in the way of potable water. The war goes terribly for the Imperium because it's essentially what we saw happen with the Soviets in Afghanistan. They were ill-prepared, facing an enemy that knew the terrain and was very much prepared to operate in that environment. And let's not forget the Tiger Shark. Out of freaking nowhere, they have this Deus Ex Machina that drops a Warhound Titan with ease and makes the Adeptus Mechanicus "flee"?
Pretty boring if your young upstart gets squashed before the race even begins. That's my point. Obviously the Tau are doing something right. So yeah, by the very nature that they are going to continue as a presence in the 40K world means they can play on the same level as the big boys.
And that's the problem. The Tau aren't a military threat in the Grand Scheme Of Things, and there's this idea by Tau fans that that they are.
Their ideology is the biggest threat that they pose to the Imperium. That doesn't mean that the Tau should be ignored as a threat but it means that in a universe where you have foes like the Tyranids, the Chaos Legions and their ilk, and the Necrons--the Tau are a different kind of threat. The fact that the Tau can be reasoned with, like the Craftworld Eldar, means that they're pretty low on the Imperium's list of "slaughter these guys NOW" though.
AndrewC wrote:We do know it was a single pass, as that part was spelled out in the book. I also thought that it was the AX10 on its' own that totaled the WarHound, I can't remember any other items of support. But I could be wrong on that IIRC there was minimal air support for the AX10, because no-one really ruled the skies at that point.
I'm going to quote it here.
Imperial Armour Volume 3 p.121 wrote:The Warhounds continually stalked forwards, obliterating anything in their path, along with the Space Marines, now advancing about their feet, the combined force thrust a sword clean through the Tau defences and opened the way onto the Iracunda Isthmus. The Tau rallied, and the arrival of a fresh Hunter Cadre saw the fighting intensify again. This time the Tau would deploy a new weapon. No Imperial Commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before. The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire. Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded, the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell.
So no, it doesn't actually say " a single pass" or anything "spelling it out". It says that it fired a volley of missiles and then it followed up with railgun shots. It could have wheeled back, or any other common air to ground approach pattern.
Nor does it say anything about the air support which bugs me because I very distinctly remember it.
The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.
Also, again, IIRC the Warhound did have ground support in the form of the SM chapter at Taros. It was a breakout of the stalemate with the 4 titans and SMs to break through the Tau lines.
And what the hell use do Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Predators do against AX-10s?
The only thing feasibly usable for air defense is the Whirlwind, and we don't know if they were equipped as Hyperios variants or not.
Brother Coa wrote:
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Jayden63 wrote:IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.
This point is irrelevant...
If they win everything how is that they are losing war for survival?
When it comes to the Tau, it seems like the IOM fans come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter. Pretty boring if your young upstart gets squashed before the race even begins. Thats my point. Obviously the Tau are doing something right. So yeah, by the very nature that they are going to continue as a presence in the 40K world means they can play on the same level as the big boys.
But they don't. That' the thing about the Tau; they're not playing on the same level.
The Tau have a double handful of worlds that bump up against the fringes of Imperial space. They're moving fast--scary fast, compared to the pondering monoliths of the big powers--but they're not doing more than nibbling on the backwaters and diverting some Imperial forces that can be spared from the actual, galaxy-shaking threats. On the level they're operating, they're doing really, really well, but they're a big fish in a small pond.
They're not remotely on the level of "a million worlds," or "martyrs killed for the Imperial cause outnumber the stars themselves." The Imperium loses planets due to rounding errors in their tax paperwork. The "big boys" have billions if not trillions of soldiers in their arsenal. The level they play on tears planets apart and leaves Tau Empire-sized swathes of space as burned and ruined collateral damage.
So the Tau can get victories against the Imperium. They can and should--on the level that the Eastern Fringe fights warrant in the higher-up's eyes. But the question of "what would the Tau do against a concentrated, well-supplied, persistent Imperial assault" can really only be "fight bravely and die well."
Because clearly the Tau players don't do anything to continue these ridiculous levels of one upsmanship, right?
If you find Brother Coa to be trolling--then ignore him and report his post. The Background Forum would be much better if he's not responded to.
1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.
The Tau do not fight a fight they cannot win, to them it is not cowardice but simple logic. Your other suggestions make more sense.
You're correct. There is no cowardice, there's practicality.
2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.
Debatable. We haven't seen them do scorched earth yet, but their behavior towards Orks shows that they have no problems adopting it if necessary.
3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.
Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.
And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?
This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.
I don't think that is a safe assumption. Look at the railrifle, it went from prototype to field use in a very short time to meet a specific function of marine killer. I don't see any reason for the AX10 not to meet the same advancement.
It actually didn't go from "prototype to field use". It's still actually in the prototype phase. That's why Pathfinders and Drones are using it, not Fire Warrior Teams.
It also did not go to meet the "function of Marine killer". It was to deal with the fact that the Imperium fields 3 tanks for every 1 the Tau field.
Looking at a titan battlegroup vs a tau attack force, it looks like the Tau can handle the Warhound class titan (assuming they have a Manta or a TIGER SHARK AX-1-0) It seems likely that these could handle a Reaver class as well. Easily? Maybe, maybe not. They appear to be more fragile than titans, but the Tiger Shark at least has a lot more manueverability. Yes, the titans will have support, but presumably, so will the tau.
The Warlord Class titans would be much more difficult. It would probably take some concentrated firepower, and this is where the tau advatage would start to fade. The Tau have two main platforms that are a threat to titans, the Manta and the more manueverable Tiger Shark AX. The Manta does not appear to be very manuevarable and would be vulnerable to heavy weapons fire, the the primary anti-titan weapon is the specially modified Tiger Shark. If the tau were aware that they would be facing a titan legion, then deploying enough tiger sharks does not seem like a problem. However, having basically one delivery system for the titan hunting weapons is. Every unit the Imperium can spar will be hunting down those Tiger Sharks. While this is true in any battle, the ability to deploy multiple types of titan hunting weapons is a big advantage for the Eldar, who have titans of their own, superheavy tanks and aircraft with Titan hunting weapons. And when you get to the Emperor class titan, the problem grows even more.
Titans are difficult to kill, but they are also costly and time consuming to produce. There is no indication that the tau (as far as I have seen, lore hounds feel free to correct me) cannot produce waves of Tigher Sharks as needed, but the single delivery system is a major stumbling block. I think the tau would need to develope additional anti titan platforms to really stand a chance against a full titan legion. It is clear they have the tech, it just has not been applied in that direction. Once forge world or specialist games sees a market, you can guarantee the tau will get out their titan killers.
I have to ignore your plot armour complaints, because they apply to any army out there.
Kanluwen wrote:
AndrewC wrote:We do know it was a single pass, as that part was spelled out in the book. I also thought that it was the AX10 on its' own that totaled the WarHound, I can't remember any other items of support. But I could be wrong on that IIRC there was minimal air support for the AX10, because no-one really ruled the skies at that point.
I'm going to quote it here.
Imperial Armour Volume 3 p.121 wrote:The Warhounds continually stalked forwards, obliterating anything in their path, along with the Space Marines, now advancing about their feet, the combined force thrust a sword clean through the Tau defences and opened the way onto the Iracunda Isthmus. The Tau rallied, and the arrival of a fresh Hunter Cadre saw the fighting intensify again. This time the Tau would deploy a new weapon. No Imperial Commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before. The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire. Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded, the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell.
So no, it doesn't actually say " a single pass" or anything "spelling it out". It says that it fired a volley of missiles and then it followed up with railgun shots. It could have wheeled back, or any other common air to ground approach pattern.
And where does it say any of those things? Nowhere, it only mentions one pass. It flew in fired and left. Ergo one pass.
The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.
If you have a problem with that then take it up with GW, they wrote it.
And what the hell use do Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Predators do against AX-10s?
The only thing feasibly usable for air defense is the Whirlwind, and we don't know if they were equipped as Hyperios variants or not.
No, someone said earlier that the only reason that the WarHound was taken out was because it had no ground support. (Or words to similar effect)
3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.
Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.
And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?
I'm agreeing with you, I'm proposing that Stealth teams would approach and attack with fusion blasters, not actually board
Oh, and railrifles. The reason that there are no railrifles with the Fire Warriors is that it is against Tau philosophy(sp) to include heavy weapons within their squads. A common complaint among Tau players I may add. Also ask any Tau player, Str6 AP3 is designed as a SM Killer, we have other more efficient means of killing tanks, from missile pods to railguns.
AndrewC wrote:Hello Kanluwen, and how are you today?
I have to ignore your plot armour complaints, because they apply to any army out there.
Other than the Imperial Guard, who basically count it as a win if they don't lose every single man in a regiment.
And where does it say any of those things? Nowhere, it only mentions one pass. It flew in fired and left. Ergo one pass.
Actually, it doesn't specify the number of passes. It also doesn't say "it flew in, fired, and left." It says that "missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings" and "two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates".
The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.
If you have a problem with that then take it up with GW, they wrote it.
The problem is that Forge World had to come up with solutions for the mess that was the first Tau codex.
And what the hell use do Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Predators do against AX-10s?
The only thing feasibly usable for air defense is the Whirlwind, and we don't know if they were equipped as Hyperios variants or not.
No, someone said earlier that the only reason that the WarHound was taken out was because it had no ground support. (Or words to similar effect)
Which wasn't talking about Taros. It was talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade, as depicted by renowned Tau fanboy and former Studio Designer Andy Hoare.
3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.
Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.
And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?
I'm agreeing with you, I'm proposing that Stealth teams would approach and attack with fusion blasters, not actually board.
Do you really think fusion blasters are going to damage an actual Battle Titan?
It'd be like ants trying to murder a Tyrannosaur.
Oh, and railrifles. The reason that there are no railrifles with the Fire Warriors is that it is against Tau philosophy(sp) to include heavy weapons within their squads. A common complaint among Tau players I may add.
So why are there heavy weapons in Pathfinder Teams?
That "philosophy" isn't set in stone. The reason we're not seeing it being changed, in all seriousness, is because the railrifle isn't safe enough to be put into widespread use and the Tau aren't actually facing much that challenges them. They're fighting Orks, Tyranids, and PDFs for the most part.
It's like the US Army facing one of the uncontacted tribes in the Amazon.
Also ask any Tau player, Str6 AP3 is designed as a SM Killer, we have other more efficient means of killing tanks, from missile pods to railguns.
It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.
Kanulwen, believe it or not, but I don't actually disagree with much of what you wrote.
Kanluwen wrote:Do you really think fusion blasters are going to damage an actual Battle Titan?
It'd be like ants trying to murder a Tyrannosaur.
And which one's still alive today? Go on laugh, you know you want to.
So why are there heavy weapons in Pathfinder Teams?
That "philosophy" isn't set in stone. The reason we're not seeing it being changed, in all seriousness, is because the railrifle isn't safe enough to be put into widespread use and the Tau aren't actually facing much that challenges them. They're fighting Orks, Tyranids, and PDFs for the most part.
I dont know. TBH I think they were placed there as the signature 'weapon' of the Pathfinders is the Markerlight, which is also heavy. The designers were probably hamstrung with the no support weapons in troop decision. Also the previous 'gets hot' rule which made the RR so dangerous to use was removed in Tau Empire, so we could, though unlikely, see them in troops ifGW retcons the support weapons.
It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.
Do you know it's been so long since I read the original WD that included the RR I can't remember what the fluff purpose was.
Because clearly the Tau players don't do anything to continue these ridiculous levels of one upsmanship, right?
If you find Brother Coa to be trolling--then ignore him and report his post. The Background Forum would be much better if he's not responded to.
2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.
Debatable. We haven't seen them do scorched earth yet, but their behavior towards Orks shows that they have no problems adopting it if necessary.
3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.
Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.
And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?
I wasn't really talking about brother coa with that comment. More about how the first, page had very little about titans or how to kill titans.
I shouldn't have used the word nuke. I was actually thinking of ice fire misses (they only damages vehicles) or pin point rail cannon strikes.
The tau can take some IG. I was actually thinking it would be a hard thing to board it. That's why I said battlesuits. Maybe it's something shadowsun can do?
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AndrewC wrote:
I dont know. TBH I think they were placed there as the signature 'weapon' of the Pathfinders is the Markerlight, which is also heavy. The designers were probably hamstrung with the no support weapons in troop decision. Also the previous 'gets hot' rule which made the RR so dangerous to use was removed in Tau Empire, so we could, though unlikely, see them in troops ifGW retcons the support weapons.
It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.
Do you know it's been so long since I read the original WD that included the RR I can't remember what the fluff purpose was.
Cheers
Andrew
I actually have that issue. I'll look up the reason when I get the chance. I reamer thought that they could fry the brains of the people using them and is why they are only issued to pathfinders.
Yeah it is, and Damocles Gulf had a lot less than that, only 19 in fact.
Hell, the current US army has more than 100 regiments...
U.S. Army Regiments aren't 40KIG Regiments by a long shot.
Keep in mind that sending 100 Regiments to a front is a massive undertaking. Just think the 13th Black Crusade... Even with unbelievable resources pulled even the IG has its limits. While they can fight a war of attrition they also have to fight their own logistics. Which is why PDFs are such an important mainstay of the Imperium.
They aren't that different. While a Krieg regiment might be some 30,000 men or whatever ridiculous number, the regiments that fought in the Taros campaign are similar in size to a US Army regiment. 114th Cadian was just under 4k men all counted, 23rd Elysian was a bit over 2800 total all counted, 12th Tallarn was just over 4k all counted, The only really oversized regiment (by our standards) was 17th Tallarn at 10.6k There were 3 regiments structured like the 17th (including the 17th), 2 structured like the 12th (including the 12th), 1 like the 23rd (the 23rd), and 1 like the 114th (the 114th). There was also a Krieg and a Brimlock regiment, the Brimlock regiment was destroyed in orbit (size unknown, disposition in the thousands), and the Krieg regiment was ordered to stand down before they embarked their transports (size unknown).
And again, nowhere does it say either Damocles or Taros involved anything more than a handful of regiments. I don't know why you keep insisting 100 regiments is such a large force given real world parallels and the relative size of the regiments I listed above, nor do I understand how 100 regiments factors into this discussion.
Next we have the Damocles Gulf Crusade--the Tau are able to stalemate a force that previously had been steamrolling them up until then. When the Imperium prepares for escalation of the Crusade and extermination--the Tau are suddenly ignored because of the arrival of the largest Hive Fleet yet to threaten the Imperium.
To be fair, the Tau weren't exactly being steamrolled. While they were being bloodied, they inflicted their fair share of casualties, and by Dal'yth they had a much larger fleet than the Imperium did. Savage Scars gives us insight to how Dal'yth might have been a Tau victory if it weren't for the fact that they were focused more on withdrawing rather than actually fighting due to political maneuvers and a bit of espionage/sabotage. We also have to remember that the Crusade itself suffered a lot of political infighting as well.
And then we have Taros. A desert world, with very little in the way of potable water. The war goes terribly for the Imperium because it's essentially what we saw happen with the Soviets in Afghanistan. They were ill-prepared, facing an enemy that knew the terrain and was very much prepared to operate in that environment. And let's not forget the Tiger Shark. Out of freaking nowhere, they have this Deus Ex Machina that drops a Warhound Titan with ease and makes the Adeptus Mechanicus "flee"?
I wouldn't complain about the Tigershark if I were you. Its really the only part of the 'plot armor' that makes any sense at all/isn't horribly contrived. The Tau could achieve the same results prior to this with Manta's anyway. And to be fair, it seems that in just about any book involving Titans, the Mechanicus threatens to pull Titans if there is even a risk of a lost engine.
So no, it doesn't actually say " a single pass" or anything "spelling it out". It says that it fired a volley of missiles and then it followed up with railgun shots. It could have wheeled back, or any other common air to ground approach pattern.
Nor does it say anything about the air support which bugs me because I very distinctly remember it.
Its safely assumed that its a single pass, given the fact that the paragraph goes into as much detail as to describe how the Tigershark approached the formation in the first place. I feel like if there was a movement as major as wheeling around for a second approach it would have been described when it already states "The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire." Especially important is the last part 'to open fire'. As for the air support, if you read the buildup to that part of the book, it talks about how the Tau swatted the Imperial air cover from the sky. I forget the exact number, but by that point they had some 30-60 fighters and bombers total left and they were in poor repair due to the environment. The Imperium was relying primarily on anti-aircraft weapons (hydras, manticores, etc.) at this point to cover itself, but IIRC the book also discusses how a lot of these were neutralized. In any case, the fact that the Tigershark came in fast and low negates their use. Its a valid tactic in the real world as well, come in low to below the radar and limit the range of visual detection. Assuming an earth sized planet and roughly flat terrain, an average human observer would observe the horizon at about 5km away. We can assume the Tigershark was say 30 feet above (skimming implies something closer IMO, but I think this will suffice) the surface, at which point it would be visible about 12km away. Assuming that the Tigershark was at its stated max recorded speed of 2100 KM/H ( a dangerous feet at that altitude, but certainly possible with advanced terrain following radar), the tigershark would cover ~.6Km ever second, so it would only be visible on its approach for some 20 seconds (both visually and on radar) BUT, this assumes that such an approach is even necessary, as the weapons involved should certainly be able to engage the Titan AT 12km. This of course assumes that you could see it through the stated dust cloud (which implies a possibly even lower altitude) and any other visible obstruction (its stated that it appeared over a rise to fire). Granted, the Titan should be able to see it at a farther distance given its height, but who knows.
The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.
Yes actually. Hell, even the 3rd edition Tau codex discusses that the Tau developed aircraft mounted weaponry to counter titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Its hardly 'deus ex machina' or new. As for the Tigershark and the Manta carrying the same heavy railgun, having seen both of the models in person, its pretty reasonable, given the fact that the railguns are the same size on both minis. The only difference is that the Manta carries another 6 ion cannons to supplement it, plus something like 144 firewarriors, 4 devilfish/hammerheads, 16 burstcannons, and a bunch of seeker missiles. Its not that farfetched at all.
The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
Well, adapting has its advantages and all that, but are you assuming the Imperium will not adapt as well? Remember, humanity has survived in the universe longer than the Tau have. We didn't do it on numbers alone, nor did we rely on numbers, heck, we didn't even have numbers to begin with until we started the Great Crusade, and that wouldn't have gone very well either unless we knew just exactly what types of technology needed to be adapted and improved to face the numerous different threats and situations we encountered.
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
Andy Hoare is a great man.
Yeah...he's really not. Sure, it's nice that he likes the Tau--but that doesn't mean what he does is acceptable any more so than some of the shenanigans that Ward has done like the Stormraven or parts of the Blood Angels codex(and no--I'm not referencing the Necron thing).
Hoare does a little bit better working for FFG, but he has far more people holding him in check than he ever did at GW I think.
I should also add that I find it amusing that if you go on The Black Library's site, and search for Andy Hoare..."Savage Scars" does not turn up in the results.
"The Hunt for Voldorius" turns up, as does his short stories that are currently published but no "Savage Scars".
Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.
Well, adapting has its advantages and all that, but are you assuming the Imperium will not adapt as well?
The imperium has been using the same technology, the same methodology, and the same bureaucracy for 10,000 years...it's part of their innate character not to adapt
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.
Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.
Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.
Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.
AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
And yet he wrote the stories from the Imperial perspective? I haven't read very much of his stuff (I dont think hes a very good writer, Savage Scars was a massive disappointment), but is it possible that he is simply trying to put the Tau in a better perspective/make them more relevant to the setting? Just because the Tau are capable in his storylines doesn't mean hes a fanboy. I know to some...errrmmm.... Imperial oriented readers he may seem to be a fanboy, but that doesn't mean he IS a fanboy. He certainly didn't seem like much of a Tau fanboy when I read Savage Scars at least, considering that he makes the Tau out to be rather naive/unintelligent, and they got smashed pretty hard by the marines all through the story.
I can't really say how the Tau would take on Titans.
to date: they have killed a single Warhound titan. that was after jury rigging the Heavy Railguns to counter it.
Tau railgun technology is certaintly impressive and is most capable of killing Titans. the main problem is when Titans are deployed in large groups. the Tau are not a numerous force and I doubt they would have enough railguns to counter a proper imperial incursion. the Daemocles Gulf crusade was a joke that did quite alot of damage to the Tau for its size.
Railguns would have to take on both Imperial tank companies as well as Titans. Target saturation could simply overwhealm them. either shoot the big scary walkers pounding your position or the wall of Lemun Russ tanks about to drown you in ordinance.
and we can't say that Tau air superiority would help. the Imperium has Thunderbolts and Marauders to deal with enemy attack craft, and in large numbers too.
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
And yet he wrote the stories from the Imperial perspective? I haven't read very much of his stuff (I dont think hes a very good writer, Savage Scars was a massive disappointment), but is it possible that he is simply trying to put the Tau in a better perspective/make them more relevant to the setting? Just because the Tau are capable in his storylines doesn't mean hes a fanboy. I know to some...errrmmm.... Imperial oriented readers he may seem to be a fanboy, but that doesn't mean he IS a fanboy. He certainly didn't seem like much of a Tau fanboy when I read Savage Scars at least, considering that he makes the Tau out to be rather naive/unintelligent, and they got smashed pretty hard by the marines all through the story.
It's cuz he wrote the dex, so they accuse him.
And the reason SS was a disappointment was because you could tell he was trying to introduce each and every Tau military unit individually.
@ Grey, they have killed several, and I am pretty sure they downed a few reavers.
According to all the sources i have seen, only a single Warhound titan was downed. the remaining Warhounds and single reaver of the crusade were untouched.
Grey Templar wrote:I can't really say how the Tau would take on Titans.
to date: they have killed a single Warhound titan. that was after jury rigging the Heavy Railguns to counter it.
The official count is AT LEAST two titans (one officially on Dal'yth, and one officially on Taros). I don't pretend that the fluff documents every instance of battle between the Tau and the Imperium either. To assume as such is just pure stupidity.
Railguns would have to take on both Imperial tank companies as well as Titans. Target saturation could simply overwhealm them. either shoot the big scary walkers pounding your position or the wall of Lemun Russ tanks about to drown you in ordinance.
The railguns used to pop titans are different from the ones used to engage groups of armor. Target saturation really isn't an issue. First priority targets for heavy railguns are titans and other superheavy systems, secondary is battle tanks, etc. Standard railguns are reversed.
And the reason SS was a disappointment was because you could tell he was trying to introduce each and every Tau military unit individually.
Actually, I found it disappointing because I wanted some insight into the White Scars, which are supposed to be known for using primarily bike mounted marines, and yet there isn't a single white scars biker in the book...
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
And yet he wrote the stories from the Imperial perspective? I haven't read very much of his stuff (I dont think hes a very good writer, Savage Scars was a massive disappointment), but is it possible that he is simply trying to put the Tau in a better perspective/make them more relevant to the setting? Just because the Tau are capable in his storylines doesn't mean hes a fanboy. I know to some...errrmmm.... Imperial oriented readers he may seem to be a fanboy, but that doesn't mean he IS a fanboy. He certainly didn't seem like much of a Tau fanboy when I read Savage Scars at least, considering that he makes the Tau out to be rather naive/unintelligent, and they got smashed pretty hard by the marines all through the story.
Yes, because Dan Abnett writing Renegade Guard as "capable enemies" means that he's a fanboy.
Or because Jim Butcher writes Necromancers as "capable enemies" for Harry Dresden means that he's in reality a Dark Wizard!
That's not why he's a fanboy. It's because he's said it multiple times, he wrote the Codex(wanting to write it, mind you), currently writes the Tau related material for FFG's supplements, has a Tau army that has cropped up a few times in GW's stuff, etc.
I have nothing against him writing the Tau as a capable enemy. They are a capable enemy, and should be treated as such.
And really, did you expect the Tau to fare well against the Astartes? Do you not remember how the Damocles Gulf went down? When the Astartes started showing up in force, the Tau had to alter tactics and use their Crisis Suits to 'hold the line' against the Astartes.
im2randomghgh wrote:
It's cuz he wrote the dex, so they accuse him.
Or it's because he's been well known as a Tau fanboy?
Seriously. Look up who wrote the rules for the Gue'vasa or his two novels "Star of Damocles" and "Rogue Star". If you can find them, his Tau army has also featured a few times in White Dwarfs over the years.
By the by: it's "because". Don't use chat/text speak on here please.
And the reason SS was a disappointment was because you could tell he was trying to introduce each and every Tau military unit individually.
It also could be a disappointment because he's just not that great of a writer in a novel format. His short stories and pieces of fluff that are fairly small usually are okay, outside of the Tau Empire book.
@ Grey, they have killed several, and I am pretty sure they downed a few reavers.
They downed a single Warhound in the Taros campaign. It likely could have been salvaged, given the fact that railgun rounds tend to hull a vehicle rather than cause it to spectacularly explode or disintegrate unless they hit the reactor core.
The Imperium has not deployed any Reavers against the Tau, so there's no way at all that the Tau have destroyed them.
The Damocles Gulf Crusade composition is asininely screwed up.
There was a listing that was floating around at one point that had something like 14 Land Speeders for each Battle-Brother that was fielded in the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Another had the force composition having almost 3x the number of Astartes on the field as Guardsmen.
Okay, I've been reading this one back and forth for a while now and I had to sign up and step in.
On the topic of the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man and relative threat levels.
A great comparison can be found in the history of our own world.
In the mid 7th century, the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the much older Roman Empire. It was an ancient, great civilization that was fraying at the edges. Barbarian incursions had caused much of the empire to collapse. Internal political divisions were rife.
Meanwhile, on the eastern fringe of the empire, a group who the empire had dismissed as primitive barbarians embraced a new faith and driven by it's energy were on the verge of remaking their society.
Nine hundred years pass and the fledgling society on the eastern fringe of the empire had reduced the empire to a memory and taken it's capital as a the crown jewel of their own empire.
Now had the Byzantine Empire been a little better organized and not having to deal with so many other threats, it would have been a simple matter for them to eradicate the Muslims before they expanded into a threat. They had done it to other groups in the past and it was certainly within their power. Instead they focused on other priorities and their own internal squabbles and were eventually annihilated.
A lot of fans of the Tau see the Tau as the little band in the desert who eventally toppled the greatest empire of the all. A lot of fans of the Imperium see the Tau as the little band in the desert they could sweep away at ease.
The truth of the matter is both are true. The Tau cold topple the Imperium in time - but the are nowhere near able to do it yet. Likewise, the Imperium could destroy the Tau with incredible ease if they devoted themselves to it. Which of these will occur will be decided by the meta-plot of the game universe.
So arguing about who will doom the other is pointless. Both can win, both can lose and the writers ahve yet to tell us how that will unfold.
Now back to the actual topic of the thread. The Tau have titan destroyer weaponry and super-heavies just like everyone else does. The big difference is the titan destroyer weapons and super heavies of the Tau are not tanks or other titans, they are flyers. This doesn't make them inferior or superior, just different. Now we can debate how many Titans the Tau could destroy and the exact tactics of the scenario until we are blue in the face (Tau get there first) but the bottom line is yes, the Tau can kill Titans both in fluff and in game.
If you read the Taros Campaign, they make it pretty clear that the Titan was destroyed, if not, then at the very least it wasn't recovered by the Ad Mech, as its written in several places that the Titan was 'lost'.
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.
Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.
Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.
Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.
AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.
I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.
Kanluwen wrote:The Damocles Gulf Crusade composition is asininely screwed up.
There was a listing that was floating around at one point that had something like 14 Land Speeders for each Battle-Brother that was fielded in the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Another had the force composition having almost 3x the number of Astartes on the field as Guardsmen.
I have heard so many different army lists it's not even funny. The only thing that remains is that it's a small force with different definitions of small.
chaos0xomega wrote:If you read the Taros Campaign, they make it pretty clear that the Titan was destroyed, if not, then at the very least it wasn't recovered by the Ad Mech, as its written in several places that the Titan was 'lost'.
The Ad Mech didn't recover it, but there is still the question did the tau recover it. Two rail rounds wouldn't reduce it to slag, but the IoM might have.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.
Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.
Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.
Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.
AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.
I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.
Jefffar wrote:Okay, I've been reading this one back and forth for a while now and I had to sign up and step in.
On the topic of the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man and relative threat levels.
A great comparison can be found in the history of our own world.
In the mid 7th century, the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the much older Roman Empire. It was an ancient, great civilization that was fraying at the edges. Barbarian incursions had caused much of the empire to collapse. Internal political divisions were rife.
Meanwhile, on the eastern fringe of the empire, a group who the empire had dismissed as primitive barbarians embraced a new faith and driven by it's energy were on the verge of remaking their society.
Nine hundred years pass and the fledgling society on the eastern fringe of the empire had reduced the empire to a memory and taken it's capital as a the crown jewel of their own empire.
Now had the Byzantine Empire been a little better organized and not having to deal with so many other threats, it would have been a simple matter for them to eradicate the Muslims before they expanded into a threat. They had done it to other groups in the past and it was certainly within their power. Instead they focused on other priorities and their own internal squabbles and were eventually annihilated.
A lot of fans of the Tau see the Tau as the little band in the desert who eventally toppled the greatest empire of the all. A lot of fans of the Imperium see the Tau as the little band in the desert they could sweep away at ease.
The truth of the matter is both are true. The Tau cold topple the Imperium in time - but the are nowhere near able to do it yet. Likewise, the Imperium could destroy the Tau with incredible ease if they devoted themselves to it. Which of these will occur will be decided by the meta-plot of the game universe.
So arguing about who will doom the other is pointless. Both can win, both can lose and the writers ahve yet to tell us how that will unfold.
Now back to the actual topic of the thread. The Tau have titan destroyer weaponry and super-heavies just like everyone else does. The big difference is the titan destroyer weapons and super heavies of the Tau are not tanks or other titans, they are flyers. This doesn't make them inferior or superior, just different. Now we can debate how many Titans the Tau could destroy and the exact tactics of the scenario until we are blue in the face (Tau get there first) but the bottom line is yes, the Tau can kill Titans both in fluff and in game.
I'd also say Ancient Macedonia, only a few times larger than Rhode Island before they conquered a tri-continental empire.
Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.
And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.
If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.
Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.
Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.
Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.
AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.
I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.
That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.
nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.
That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.
It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.
Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.
nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.
That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.
It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.
I'm not buying most of this. Strong yes, but not 'punch thorugh power armour in a few hits strong'. Not sure about the design of the bolter to be honest, as most representations of Asartes vs Astartes has bolt rounds failing to punch through Power Armour on nearly every occasion. Since Pulse rounds don't pack as much punch as a bolt round shot for shot, then I still think that an Asartes is going to take a fair number of hits before one penetrates, and it likely won't do that much harm due to its small damage area.
Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.
Not really. There are certain forces within each army that are stupidly good, XV9's, Space Marines, Nobs, Carnifex's and so on, Space Marines are still the epitome of humanities battle capabilities.
I'd recommend that you wash away this opinion and read some more GW material. Dawn of War and others aren't good representations at all. The new Space Marines game is however.
nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.
That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.
It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.
I'm not buying most of this. Strong yes, but not 'punch thorugh power armour in a few hits strong'. Not sure about the design of the bolter to be honest, as most representations of Asartes vs Astartes has bolt rounds failing to punch through Power Armour on nearly every occasion. Since Pulse rounds don't pack as much punch as a bolt round shot for shot, then I still think that an Asartes is going to take a fair number of hits before one penetrates, and it likely won't do that much harm due to its small damage area.
Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.
Not really. There are certain forces within each army that are stupidly good, XV9's, Space Marines, Nobs, Carnifex's and so on, Space Marines are still the epitome of humanities battle capabilities.
I'd recommend that you wash away this opinion and read some more GW material. Dawn of War and others aren't good representations at all. The new Space Marines game is however.
Um bolters were not made to punch through power armour. Bolters were made before the Heresy and the idea of astates killing astartes was laughable.
nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.
That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.
It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.
I'm not buying most of this. Strong yes, but not 'punch thorugh power armour in a few hits strong'. Not sure about the design of the bolter to be honest, as most representations of Asartes vs Astartes has bolt rounds failing to punch through Power Armour on nearly every occasion. Since Pulse rounds don't pack as much punch as a bolt round shot for shot, then I still think that an Asartes is going to take a fair number of hits before one penetrates, and it likely won't do that much harm due to its small damage area.
Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.
Not really. There are certain forces within each army that are stupidly good, XV9's, Space Marines, Nobs, Carnifex's and so on, Space Marines are still the epitome of humanities battle capabilities.
I'd recommend that you wash away this opinion and read some more GW material. Dawn of War and others aren't good representations at all. The new Space Marines game is however.
Really? You just going to repeat what I did and not give any sort of reasoning as to why? I'd really like to read a little more detail from you, I'll respond in kind.
nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)
Here is a link of detailed descriptions of all titans,including the Xenos versions.
The fact that a pulse rifle has Strength 5 and a bolter only Strength 4 is a pretty good indicator I would say. That and I believe its stated that it packs more power per shot than a bolter but has a lower rate of fire in one of the codecies. I know the 4th edition codex does state that its based on plasma weapon technology, which is in itself a good indicator of its strength relative to a bolter.
That's not really any indication, as it's the rules. You're guaranteed to find similar differences that don't match up in the background. Being Plasma however is decent enough reasoning though. The Bolter I believe does more damage to a target than a Pulse Rifle shot does. Take an Ork for example. The Pulse shot may go right through the stomach, leaving a tiny burnt hole that seals up immediately due to the heat and likely wont stall the Orkz advance. A bolter round hits the stomach. It either creates huge hole, which knocks the Ork over with the impact, makes it bleed out or die from the size of the wound, or it explodes, and blows the Ork to pieces.
chaos0xomega wrote:The fact that a pulse rifle has Strength 5 and a bolter only Strength 4 is a pretty good indicator I would say.
And the tabletop is a terrible indicator of lore. Lorewise, Lasguns sever limbs and can punch fist-sized holes into a carapace armored individual. Because of the sheer volume of Lasguns that can be fielded--they don't do that on the tabletop.
That and I believe its stated that it packs more power per shot than a bolter but has a lower rate of fire in one of the codecies. I know the 4th edition codex does state that its based on plasma weapon technology, which is in itself a good indicator of its strength relative to a bolter.
Here's the description of how Pulse weapons work, courtesy of "Codex: Tau"(note: Tau, not Tau Empire).
"All three weapons are variants of the same technology. An induction field is used to propel a particle. The particle reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel."
The Tau Plasma weapons had a specific notation. "The Tau plasma rifle is lower powered than its Imperial equivalent but does not suffer from overheating".
I've seen nothing saying that it "packs more power per shot than a bolter". And even if it does pack more power, it still suffers from the same problem that Hammerheads suffer versus the Leman Russ variants.
nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)
Here is a link of detailed descriptions of all titans,including the Xenos versions.
That was very helpful thank you. It actually makes me think that the tau might not have such a hard time with the bigger titans. (the titans by them selves) A raver is only twice as well armored as a warhound. So that's like 2 or 3 passes. The big kicker is that it dosen't apare to have anything like mini turrets or anything. Just the big stuff which I imagine is hard to aim at an air craft. It's build to kill other titans I suspect it might have a hard time fighting something smaller.
Oh and iproxtaco I PMed my response to you. I didn't want to help drag this thread off topic any more then I already have.
Oh and iproxtaco I PMed my response to you. I didn't want to help drag this thread off topic any more then I already have.
I see it now, too busy watching Scotland hammer an opponent at Rugby Union for once whilst modeling some more Word Bearers whilst preparing all the stuff I've saved up over the last few years to start a Blog on Dakka.
*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.
Apocalypse Missile Launcher Vortex Missile
All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''
Vengeance cannon Range-360'' Str-D AP 2 Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer
What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.
They could take down a Warhound quite easily,and a Warlord or Reaver with difficulty.An Emperor is almost impossible to take with many Titans,so how would the Tau take one on,along with the many smaller titans that form a Squadron.
*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.
Apocalypse Missile Launcher
Vortex Missile
All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''
Vengeance cannon
Range-360''
Str-D
AP 2
Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer
What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.
Who can take this on?
Drop a rock on it? When you start getting at the really big stuff. (quick question, is there anything bigger then that?) The tau just can't fight them with what they have now. It's possible that they could kill one some time maybe somewhere down the rode. The tau, how they are now, don't stand a chance in a straight up fight. Killing one would be the story of a book and would involve maybe a lifetime of planing.
I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.
I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.
That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.
It's not the point of that: Titans ( especially the big ones ) never go without at least several Guard Regiments or few Skitarii companies.
And there are armored companies etc...
Titans never go alone in the fight, only against other Titans.
*,Against vehicles under the central hole,this has Str 10+3D6 Armour pen.Against vehicles under the template but not the hole,it has Str 10+2D6 armour pen.
Apocalypse Missile Launcher
Vortex Missile
All of these have a Minimum range of 36'',except the Vortex,which has a Minimum range of 48''
Vengeance cannon
Range-360''
Str-D
AP 2
Type-Heavy 1,7'' blast,Destroyer
What Tau can take this in a fight.Heck,a novel I read,it took a whole bunch of Titans firing on a point for 5 full minutes to collapse its voids.It took down many titans with it.
Who can take this on?
This is the loadout of an Emperor,the Warlord has of the Emperor's carapace weapons for arms,and 2 for shoulders.
PS-Please stop calling it an Imperator.The Impwerator is one pattern,just a close range fire support version,while the Warmonger spouts the most powerful guns,and is a whole Company of Banablades in itself.It even has guns on it's kneecaps and thighs,each easily capable of blowing a Monolith to Kingdom Come in a shot.
I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.
I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.
That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.
They are offended by small weapons? Just a guess, but I understand titans can be picky.
Deadshot wrote:Yopu wouldn't get through the voids.Or the minor hull defensive weapons.Or the feet.Or the Skitarii and Servitors.In fact,don't even bother trying.
An Ork Warboss did that very same thing to a Warlord Titan I do believe, although I'm pretty sure that he did not mean that seriously.
The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I donbt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).
Deadshot wrote:Yopu wouldn't get through the voids.Or the minor hull defensive weapons.Or the feet.Or the Skitarii and Servitors.In fact,don't even bother trying.
An Ork Warboss did that very same thing to a Warlord Titan I do believe, although I'm pretty sure that he did not mean that seriously.
The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I donbt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).
The point is: Tau can deal with Titans - but only with much resources put into it.
And taking down 1 Warhound is nothing, Titan Legion is 10x better protected then them. If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.
I'm seeing a lot of talk about the Imperium's Titans not going anywhere without an escort.
Well hey, you know what, it's not like the Tau forces wouldn't escort their titan killers.
So if the Titans came to town and the Tau decided they needed to hit them rather than fall back and the Tau decided that orbital bombardment is not the appropriate choice what you would see is a battle between Imperiaum Titans and their escorts versus Tau titan killers and their escorts.
Who wins . . . well that's decided by the things that usually do or don't win battles, but both sides have a general's chance.
Jefffar wrote:I'm seeing a lot of talk about the Imperium's Titans not going anywhere without an escort.
Well hey, you know what, it's not like the Tau forces wouldn't escort their titan killers.
First off: please stop using yellow text. It's annoying, and unnecessary.
Second off:
You're absolutely right, the Tau forces would be escorting their Titan Killers. The difference is that the Tau rely upon aircraft, and there's only so much armor you can give aircraft.
You're also reliant upon having an airbase or a ship in orbit to allow those aircraft to get into combat.
So if the Titans came to town and the Tau decided they needed to hit them rather than fall back and the Tau decided that orbital bombardment is not the appropriate choice what you would see is a battle between Imperium Titans and their escorts versus Tau titan killers and their escorts.
And your assumption again requires the Tau's titankillers to have clear skies.
If the Tau don't have clear skies, then they're sending those titankillers on suicide runs--which goes against the Tau's way of war.
And if the Tau do orbital bombardments, the only things we've seen from them that are capable of doing such bombardments are missiles, railguns, etc. Things that aren't installed in turrets and require the ship to be aligned directly on target for the most part.
Who wins . . . well that's decided by the things that usually do or don't win battles, but both sides have a general's chance.
Like if the Imperium is attacking or defending, if the Tau have airbases concealed planetside with titankillers just magically waiting in the wings, or any number of factors that are of that nature.
One way the Tau can deal with mayby even a Titan Legion is Evacuating the planet, totaly Obliderating enemy orbitals, and just leave those Titans trollin around on a empty planet. This does requier the Tau to win the Space war, but its not imposible.
Brother Coa wrote:The point is: Tau can deal with Titans - but only with much resources put into it.
And taking down 1 Warhound is nothing, Titan Legion is 10x better protected then them. If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.
I don't know that it's a lot of resources. The details of the kill keep shifting (thanks for that GW), but last I checked they didn't even lose the trigershark.
Unless you think that rail rounds are solid gold works of art or something.
Or, like in the book Mechanicum, A small group of elite warriors could get inside the titan and sabotage it. But then again, that was CSM and they are more epic
chaoslooksgood wrote:Or, like in the book Mechanicum, A small group of elite warriors could get inside the titan and sabotage it. But then again, that was CSM and they are more epic
What kind of Titan was it? The largest class has Guard units in the legs to protect from infiltration.
It was imperator, I think. They created some kind of distraction and then went in through the legs, slaughtered the Skiitari there and planted melta charges on the knee joint
I apologize if the yellow text annoys others. It's something I've adapted on dark background forums (such as this) as it lets me see what I've written clearer than white/light grey text does. For that reason I will continue to use it.
Anyway, the Tau and Imperium air forces are reasonably matched in terms of quality. While the Imperium does have an overall edge in quantity, it is still possible for the Tau to get a local superiority by throwing a very large portion of their assets at the right area. A real-world example of this would be the air war over Germany in Word War II. While the US or the RAF almost never had more aircraft over Germany than Germany could put in the air, they usually had more aircraft in the spot that mattered than the Germans did and were able to push through with the mission.
The Tau are not adverse to suicide missions (in fact the Greater Good strikes me as a doctrine that encourages soldiers to volunteer for such missions), the Tau instead believe in preservation of their forces. In short, they won't waste their troops unless the gains are worth it. So how much they Tau are willing to throw into a mission to kill a Titan depends upon what priority the local commander gives the mission.
Given that a Titan, and it's accompanying forces, represents a significant Imperium investment, I think the Tau would be keen to neutralize it. Now there are several tricks for them to do this. Unless their hand was forced somehow, I suspect the Tau would rather bypass the Titan and it's escorts and look for a much more vulnerable yet still decisive target (like say the local Imperium planet to atmosphere transport resources, supply lines and similar). This would leave the Titan well out of position to influence the course of events.
If the Tau had to take out the Titan and it was well defended, a strike of Darkstar and Icefire weapons (Apocolypse Reloaded) even if not disabling the titan themselves, would considerably reduce the effectiveness of the escorting units. At that point either a concentrated airstrike or a small hit and run strike would go after the Titan and surviving escorts.
Of course the Imperium has counters to these measures (most notably mass of numbers) but how well he plays those counters and the Tau response comes down to the individual commanders on each side and the resources available at that immediate moment.
So yes, the Tau can destroy Titans and no it will not be easy for them.
Deadshot wrote:Void shields would protect from a rock.
The Emperor titan stands roughly 400ft high.It has feet the size of a Warhound.
I doubt that. Having a several km diameter piece of rock and iron dropped on you from orbit would very easily overpower the void shields and smash the thing to pieces. Remember, overloading void shields are just as big a threat to a titan as enemy weapons, fluff constantly depicts void shield generators exploding when they are forced to absorb more than they can handle, usually causing systems failures,starting fires, and killing crew.
I never actually saw the specific (fluff) specs for titans.
But I was wondering... would these giant gods of war not have anti batteries of their own? It's kind of silly to just put 2 big guns on it and call it a day.
I'd reckon warlords and Imperators would be covered in missile pods/lascannon/Auto cannon AA turrets.
That said, an attack run from a full AX10 squadron or two should reduce most things to swiss cheese.
They used to back in the day, but GW has slowly been retconning their sizes from being unbelievably large walking cities to slightly more reasonably sized bipedal cathedrals.
The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I doubt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).
Considering that the fluff always depicts the railguns as outranging pretty much everything else, I doubt it. I mean for feths sake, real world railguns are estimated of being able to strike a target at up to 200km away with trajectory (over the horizon fire), and I recall reading somewhere that if they could figure out how to mount them (the full sized naval railguns) on aircraft they could theoretically be able to fire a direct shot at least that far depending on altitude, etc. As for taking air superiority, its not impossible, the Tau have done it before (in fact, it seems to be the one thing that that the Imperium really does have trouble doing when fighting against the Tau).
Please keep your titan based fanboyism to yourself and use actual logic and reasoning when trying to argue a point.
Btw, for the whole orbital bombardlements from the Tau, what ship based weaponry do the Tau posess anyway?
Pretty much enlarged versions of your ground based heavy weapons: railguns, ion cannons, and drone missiles. In BFG they can put out a fair amount of damage, but it usually takes fewer hits to destroy them.
If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( witch much less recources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.
Like the legion they fought on Dal'yth, or does Legio Thanataris not count as a real titan legion? Last I checked 7 warhounds, 6 reavers and a warlord qualifies.
You're absolutely right, the Tau forces would be escorting their Titan Killers. The difference is that the Tau rely upon aircraft, and there's only so much armor you can give aircraft.
You're also reliant upon having an airbase or a ship in orbit to allow those aircraft to get into combat.
While true, considering all the aircraft in the Tau arsenal are transatmospheric, they are capable of sustaining re-entry, so much like a Thunderhawk, they would,in theory, be less vulnerable (at least on the underside) to any purely energy/heat based weaponry. Besides that, all those vehicles are able, according to the Taros campaign, of traveling at least 2100 kilometers per hour. That is pretty fast, ~Mach 2, and that isn't necessarily top speed either (they need to be able to reach escape velocity in order to exit the atmosphere after all, whether or not they have skimmer like anti-grav drives to assist them I cannot say). Hitting a target at that speed isn't easy by any means, even before you factor in countermeasures. THAT is an aircraft's 'armor'.
And if the Tau do orbital bombardments, the only things we've seen from them that are capable of doing such bombardments are missiles, railguns, etc. Things that aren't installed in turrets and require the ship to be aligned directly on target for the most part.
What source are you using for this Titan LEgion that was present at Da'lyth? I've been around the block when trying to figure out what exactly was present but I've never heard a Titan Legion mentioned before this thread.
iproxtaco wrote:What source are you using for this Titan LEgion that was present at Da'lyth? I've been around the block when trying to figure out what exactly was present but I've never heard a Titan Legion mentioned before this thread.
Jefffar wrote:I apologize if the yellow text annoys others. It's something I've adapted on dark background forums (such as this) as it lets me see what I've written clearer than white/light grey text does. For that reason I will continue to use it.
Look in the upper right-hand corner of your screen. There's a "switch theme" button. Use worksafe or print friendly if it's so difficult for you. Because I for one cannot bear that bright freaking yellow.
Anyway, the Tau and Imperium air forces are reasonably matched in terms of quality. While the Imperium does have an overall edge in quantity, it is still possible for the Tau to get a local superiority by throwing a very large portion of their assets at the right area. A real-world example of this would be the air war over Germany in Word War II. While the US or the RAF almost never had more aircraft over Germany than Germany could put in the air, they usually had more aircraft in the spot that mattered than the Germans did and were able to push through with the mission.
That "real-world example" assumes that the Tau are operating on the planet.
Not every campaign is going to be Taros, where somehow they have fully established airfields that somehow are invisible to detection. I'll get more into this later.
The Tau are not adverse to suicide missions (in fact the Greater Good strikes me as a doctrine that encourages soldiers to volunteer for such missions), the Tau instead believe in preservation of their forces. In short, they won't waste their troops unless the gains are worth it. So how much they Tau are willing to throw into a mission to kill a Titan depends upon what priority the local commander gives the mission.
And what gain is there from wasting an experimental and rare aircraft on missions where it might not return from?
Given that a Titan, and its accompanying forces, represents a significant Imperium investment, I think the Tau would be keen to neutralize it.
Again, it depends on the class of Titan.
We've seen the Tau throw stupidly absurd amounts of firepower against simple Warhound Titans and some which weren't being escorted by anything.
Now there are several tricks for them to do this.
There's exactly one "trick for them to do this". It's called their titankiller aircraft.
Unless their hand was forced somehow, I suspect the Tau would rather bypass the Titan and its escorts and look for a much more vulnerable yet still decisive target (like say the local Imperium planet to atmosphere transport resources, supply lines and similar).
I'm not actually quite sure what you're saying here, beyond the point of the Tau bypassing the Titan and its escorting regiments. Are you saying they'd target the big landers that the Imperium would be using to transport resources? Because those would be so far behind the frontlines and actually be defended that it's a better idea to just go after the Titans.
This would leave the Titan well out of position to influence the course of events.
And unopposed to wreak havoc and accomplish the objectives it was assigned--which is likely to scour any and all traces of the Tau from the surface of the planet.
If the Tau had to take out the Titan and it was well defended, a strike of Darkstar and Icefire weapons (Apocolypse Reloaded) even if not disabling the titan themselves, would considerably reduce the effectiveness of the escorting units. At that point either a concentrated airstrike or a small hit and run strike would go after the Titan and surviving escorts.
So we're assuming that the Tau have somehow infiltrated a planet and established strongpoints that are somehow completely invisible to an Imperial fleet or groundforces or are defending and have these assets at their disposal, while the Imperium has nothing similar?
First targets when an Imperial fleet comes into orbit are defensive emplacements and military installations. The Tau, even with their reliance on mobility, still require those to operate.
If the Tau are relying upon ships while launching attacks, they'd likely dump their fighters out of the holds at the first chance they get to minimize the potential of ships going down with full holds. If they're attacking a relatively important Imperial world--they will be facing orbital platforms, fighter and interceptor craft, anti-aircraft defenses, system monitors, et al.
Of course the Imperium has counters to these measures (most notably mass of numbers) but how well he plays those counters and the Tau response comes down to the individual commanders on each side and the resources available at that immediate moment.
And if an Imperial Commander has access to something akin to Reavers, Warlords, or Imperators--he has a lot of resources available.
He has the Adeptus Mechanicus and their warmachines, the Inquisition will likely be present in an advisory capacity, and support from the Adeptus Astartes.
There has yet to be any kind of force where even Reaver Titans have been deployed to face the Tau.
So yes, the Tau can destroy Titans and no it will not be easy for them.
Nobody with any kind of sense is arguing that they can't "destroy Titans". The argument that is constantly presented by the Tau players, however, relies upon the Tau having superiority that they are likely not to in this kind of situation.
Every Imperial force that has come against the Tau has been relatively lightly equipped. There's been very few Baneblades, etc to face the Tau.
It goes back to the plot armor point I made earlier. The Imperial equipment that can actually deal with Tau vehicles hasn't been deployed in any significant numbers against the Tau. Why? Because it's needed elsewhere--like, say, the Eye of Terror or facing down the Hive Fleets.
Every Imperial world that the Tau has come up against has been relatively minor and with very little in the terms of defensive operations.
iproxtaco wrote:Pardon my ignorance but how many Titans were downed in the book?
A single warhound brought down by markerlights and seeker missiles is the official tally. I swear I recalled reading that another titan was lost to a similar attack on another part of the battlefield or something like that, but I can't find the reference.
Ironically enough, the Imperium was a bigger threat to its own Titans than the Tau, a psycho Inquisitor was ready to exterminatus the planet via virus bomb on the planet (which would have destroyed the titans as well) before anyone could evac.
Kanluwen wrote:
They downed a single Warhound in the Taros campaign. It likely could have been salvaged, given the fact that railgun rounds tend to hull a vehicle rather than cause it to spectacularly explode or disintegrate unless they hit the reactor core.
The Imperium has not deployed any Reavers against the Tau, so there's no way at all that the Tau have destroyed them.
You are obviously poorly versed in how a railgun works.
The U.S. Navy is currently developping railguns (and have had several test-fires, however they have been one shots so far, ruining the cannons)
And the tiny warhead-less round fired by the railgun reached velocities so great that upon impact left a blast radius comparable to that of a tomahawk missile.
Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons. Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.
Wouldn't have destroyed the Titans if Galaxy in flames is anything to go by. Everything else though wouldn't be so lucky. Typical Imperium. Hinders its own actions more than the enemy does.
iproxtaco wrote:Pardon my ignorance but how many Titans were downed in the book?
A single warhound brought down by markerlights and seeker missiles is the official tally. I swear I recalled reading that another titan was lost to a similar attack on another part of the battlefield or something like that, but I can't find the reference.
Ironically enough, the Imperium was a bigger threat to its own Titans than the Tau, a psycho Inquisitor was ready to exterminatus the planet via virus bomb on the planet (which would have destroyed the titans as well) before anyone could evac.
Titans can seal off all airflow and survive virus bombs. Read the HH, Istvaan III.
The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I doubt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).
Considering that the fluff always depicts the railguns as outranging pretty much everything else, I doubt it. I mean for feths sake, real world railguns are estimated of being able to strike a target at up to 200km away with trajectory (over the horizon fire), and I recall reading somewhere that if they could figure out how to mount them (the full sized naval railguns) on aircraft they could theoretically be able to fire a direct shot at least that far depending on altitude, etc. As for taking air superiority, its not impossible, the Tau have done it before (in fact, it seems to be the one thing that that the Imperium really does have trouble doing when fighting against the Tau).
In almost every case where the Imperium hasn't had air superiority against the Tau, it's been very stupidly explained.
Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.
I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.
Btw, for the whole orbital bombardments from the Tau, what ship based weaponry do the Tau posess anyway?
Pretty much enlarged versions of your ground based heavy weapons: railguns, ion cannons, and drone missiles. In BFG they can put out a fair amount of damage, but it usually takes fewer hits to destroy them.
Which brings up another fairly good point.
How are the Tau going to be landing forces if they can't take hits on the landing craft?
If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( with much less resources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.
Like the legion they fought on Dal'yth, or does Legio Thanataris not count as a real titan legion? Last I checked 7 warhounds, 6 reavers and a warlord qualifies.
Savage Scars does not count, because every other piece of fluff in regards to the battle of Dal'yth makes no mention of Reavers much less Warlords being around.
Andy freaking Hoare strikes again, clearly.
You're absolutely right, the Tau forces would be escorting their Titan Killers. The difference is that the Tau rely upon aircraft, and there's only so much armor you can give aircraft.
You're also reliant upon having an airbase or a ship in orbit to allow those aircraft to get into combat.
While true, considering all the aircraft in the Tau arsenal are transatmospheric, they are capable of sustaining re-entry, so much like a Thunderhawk, they would,in theory, be less vulnerable (at least on the underside) to any purely energy/heat based weaponry. Besides that, all those vehicles are able, according to the Taros campaign, of traveling at least 2100 kilometers per hour. That is pretty fast, ~Mach 2, and that isn't necessarily top speed either (they need to be able to reach escape velocity in order to exit the atmosphere after all, whether or not they have skimmer like anti-grav drives to assist them I cannot say). Hitting a target at that speed isn't easy by any means, even before you factor in countermeasures. THAT is an aircraft's 'armor'.
You know what else is an aircraft's 'armor'?
Not being expected. If the Imperium had any kind of anti-aircraft equipment on the ground--you can bet your sweet blue bottom that the Tigershark would have been shot down.
And if the Tau do orbital bombardments, the only things we've seen from them that are capable of doing such bombardments are missiles, railguns, etc. Things that aren't installed in turrets and require the ship to be aligned directly on target for the most part.
You are obviously poorly versed in how a railgun works.
The U.S. Navy is currently developping railguns (and have had several test-fires, however they have been one shots so far, ruining the cannons)
And the tiny warhead-less round fired by the railgun reached velocities so great that upon impact left a blast radius comparable to that of a tomahawk missile.
Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons. Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.
I think ours are better, It was mentioned here before...
Kanluwen wrote:
They downed a single Warhound in the Taros campaign. It likely could have been salvaged, given the fact that railgun rounds tend to hull a vehicle rather than cause it to spectacularly explode or disintegrate unless they hit the reactor core.
The Imperium has not deployed any Reavers against the Tau, so there's no way at all that the Tau have destroyed them.
You are obviously poorly versed in how a railgun works.
And you're clearly a Railgunologist?
Railguns are a class of weapon that is pretty common for scifi. Mass Effect has them, Halo has them, and more.
Railguns utilize a magnetic acceleration system to make a projectile reach hypersonic velocities and generate kinetic energy upon impact based upon the mass of the projectile. Hence why they're sometimes referred to as "mass drivers" or "kinetic kill weapons".
The U.S. Navy is currently developing railguns (and have had several test-fires, however they have been one shots so far, ruining the cannons)
And the tiny warhead-less round fired by the railgun reached velocities so great that upon impact left a blast radius comparable to that of a tomahawk missile.
That's good for them. Actually, I'd suggest you reread the information about that. It's theorized that the impact will be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile's explosion at a fraction of the cost.
Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons.
Oh my god, a railgun broke a rock? No freaking way! It's almost like exactly what most tank cannons can do!
Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.
Except those "massive railguns" are what was used on the Warhound killed in Taros.
Guess what?
There was no explosion from the impact. There were holes in the hull, that's all.
The most powerful weapons against Titans that seem to be used, missiles that travel through the Warp and very close combat weapons (i.e. Titan scale weaponry) aren't used by Tau. An Imperator Titan will likely outrange Mantas and have numerous smaller weapon emplacements equipped. Alone and without support, the Tau would only be able to take one down with heavy losses since I don't see the Tau being capable of outranging an Imperator Titan. Unless they manage to secure and maintain air supremacy and knock most of the anti-air capability of the Imperial forces, I doubt they'll actually be able to take an Imperator out short of orbital bombardment (crashing Mantas or Tigersharks into it might just work).
--
Considering that the fluff always depicts the railguns as outranging pretty much everything else, I doubt it. I mean for feths sake, real world railguns are estimated of being able to strike a target at up to 200km away with trajectory (over the horizon fire), and I recall reading somewhere that if they could figure out how to mount them (the full sized naval railguns) on aircraft they could theoretically be able to fire a direct shot at least that far depending on altitude, etc. As for taking air superiority, its not impossible, the Tau have done it before (in fact, it seems to be the one thing that that the Imperium really does have trouble doing when fighting against the Tau).
In almost every case where the Imperium hasn't had air superiority against the Tau, it's been very stupidly explained.
Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.
I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.
Btw, for the whole orbital bombardments from the Tau, what ship based weaponry do the Tau posess anyway?
Pretty much enlarged versions of your ground based heavy weapons: railguns, ion cannons, and drone missiles. In BFG they can put out a fair amount of damage, but it usually takes fewer hits to destroy them.
Which brings up another fairly good point.
How are the Tau going to be landing forces if they can't take hits on the landing craft?
If they don't find out some good tactic soon ( with much less resources involved ) they are going to get stomped if the ever encounter Titan Legion.
Like the legion they fought on Dal'yth, or does Legio Thanataris not count as a real titan legion? Last I checked 7 warhounds, 6 reavers and a warlord qualifies.
Savage Scars does not count, because every other piece of fluff in regards to the battle of Dal'yth makes no mention of Reavers much less Warlords being around.
Andy freaking Hoare strikes again, clearly.
You're absolutely right, the Tau forces would be escorting their Titan Killers. The difference is that the Tau rely upon aircraft, and there's only so much armor you can give aircraft.
You're also reliant upon having an airbase or a ship in orbit to allow those aircraft to get into combat.
While true, considering all the aircraft in the Tau arsenal are transatmospheric, they are capable of sustaining re-entry, so much like a Thunderhawk, they would,in theory, be less vulnerable (at least on the underside) to any purely energy/heat based weaponry. Besides that, all those vehicles are able, according to the Taros campaign, of traveling at least 2100 kilometers per hour. That is pretty fast, ~Mach 2, and that isn't necessarily top speed either (they need to be able to reach escape velocity in order to exit the atmosphere after all, whether or not they have skimmer like anti-grav drives to assist them I cannot say). Hitting a target at that speed isn't easy by any means, even before you factor in countermeasures. THAT is an aircraft's 'armor'.
You know what else is an aircraft's 'armor'?
Not being expected. If the Imperium had any kind of anti-aircraft equipment on the ground--you can bet your sweet blue bottom that the Tigershark would have been shot down.
And if the Tau do orbital bombardments, the only things we've seen from them that are capable of doing such bombardments are missiles, railguns, etc. Things that aren't installed in turrets and require the ship to be aligned directly on target for the most part.
So pretty much just like the Imperium...
If you say so.
1st part: They conceal their base with stealth technology. In case you haven't noticed, they have superior tech when compared to the IoM, with only Necrons and MAYBE Eldar being more advanced. Being able to hide from these sensor sweeps only makes sense.
2nd part: What do you mean, can't take hits on their landing craft? Their landing craft are Mantas, which are pretty beastly. I admit Orcas are pretty squishy...
3rd part: So your opinions are worth more than a BL author? Good to know. Either way, it is much more plausible than Battle of the Fang where 1 termie plus 1 dread=pounding a Primarch.
4th part: Maybe if they had dozens and dozens of Hydras, but a single AA position is insufficient for downing mantas. Expecially Mantas going at Mach 2.
5th part: Doesn't matter, a ship rolling upside down or to it's side is nothing in space.
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Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
They downed a single Warhound in the Taros campaign. It likely could have been salvaged, given the fact that railgun rounds tend to hull a vehicle rather than cause it to spectacularly explode or disintegrate unless they hit the reactor core.
The Imperium has not deployed any Reavers against the Tau, so there's no way at all that the Tau have destroyed them.
You are obviously poorly versed in how a railgun works.
And you're clearly a Railgunologist?
Railguns are a class of weapon that is pretty common for scifi. Mass Effect has them, Halo has them, and more.
Railguns utilize a magnetic acceleration system to make a projectile reach hypersonic velocities and generate kinetic energy upon impact based upon the mass of the projectile. Hence why they're sometimes referred to as "mass drivers" or "kinetic kill weapons".
The U.S. Navy is currently developing railguns (and have had several test-fires, however they have been one shots so far, ruining the cannons)
And the tiny warhead-less round fired by the railgun reached velocities so great that upon impact left a blast radius comparable to that of a tomahawk missile.
That's good for them. Actually, I'd suggest you reread the information about that. It's theorized that the impact will be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile's explosion at a fraction of the cost.
Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons.
Oh my god, a railgun broke a rock? No freaking way! It's almost like exactly what most tank cannons can do!
Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.
Except those "massive railguns" are what was used on the Warhound killed in Taros.
Guess what?
There was no explosion from the impact. There were holes in the hull, that's all.
1: You just lost all credibility. mass Drivers are most assuredly NOT railguns, in fact you'd be surprised just how NOT a railgun it is. Gauss weapons, railguns and magnetic accelerators are all magnet operated, that is the ONLY similarity.
2. Theorized based on observation of field test. Also, they move so fast plasma forms around the projectile. It is unrelated but super-awesome sauce.
3. It sent waves through a rock. Tank cannons can only do that to water. Also, the HEAT (or krak in 40k) rounds would do rather little to a massive stone boulder. Those same railgun shots were turning ceramite into liquid-ceramite that makes terminator armour, terminator armour that has, in some fluff, withstood lascannons. Railgun>Lascannon
4. Another example of GW not knowing anything it writes about, it is almost as stupid as how they portray Gauss cannons.
im2randomghgh wrote:
1st part: They conceal their base with stealth technology. In case you haven't noticed, they have superior tech when compared to the IoM, with only Necrons and MAYBE Eldar being more advanced. Being able to hide from these sensor sweeps only makes sense.
Bahahahaha. You're making crap up now.
They have absolutely nothing to suggest that they have "stealth technology" that can conceal entire bases. Sorry, but absolutely not.
2nd part: What do you mean, can't take hits on their landing craft? Their landing craft are Mantas, which are pretty beastly. I admit Orcas are pretty squishy...
Do you really think Hydras are the only anti-aircraft system that the Imperium has?
Spoiler:
Hint: They're not. The Imperium has ship-killing weaponry. There's a reason that Abaddon didn't bring the Planet-Killer close to Cadia, and it's not because he was worried the pilot was drunk. One of the most common pieces of ship-killing weaponry is a turbolaser, as in the weaponry that you see mounted on Warhound Titans that kill superheavy tanks. Those "missile silos" that the Raptors spiked on Taros? Ship-killing weaponry.
3rd part: So your opinions are worth more than a BL author? Good to know. Either way, it is much more plausible than Battle of the Fang where 1 termie plus 1 dread=pounding a Primarch.
No, my opinions are worth more than an author who has a well-known bias for the Tau and wrote a book to make them seem far more badass.
There was nothing prior or since Savage Scars to indicate an actual Titan Legion with Reavers and Warlords was present at Dal'yth.
4th part: Maybe if they had dozens and dozens of Hydras, but a single AA position is insufficient for downing mantas. Expecially Mantas going at Mach 2.
See above.
5th part: Doesn't matter, a ship rolling upside down or to it's side is nothing in space.
It does when there's anti-ship weaponry in play. You need to get into a low, stable orbit to be able to commence a bombardment.
1: You just lost all credibility. mass Drivers are most assuredly NOT railguns, in fact you'd be surprised just how NOT a railgun it is. Gauss weapons, railguns and magnetic accelerators are all magnet operated, that is the ONLY similarity.
Until you start actually showing some kind of credibility, you have none.
Railguns are a subcategory of mass driver/kinetic kill weaponry. That's what science says.
2. Theorized based on observation of field test. Also, they move so fast plasma forms around the projectile. It is unrelated but super-awesome sauce.
Actually, it was theorized before the field test.
BAE demonstrated an 8 Megajoule weapon, as a demo of the expected 64 MJ.
The 64 MJ weapons are expected to run the length of a freaking cruiser to deliver that Tomahawk sized crater.
3. It sent waves through a rock. Tank cannons can only do that to water. Also, the HEAT (or krak in 40k) rounds would do rather little to a massive stone boulder. Those same railgun shots were turning ceramite into liquid-ceramite that makes terminator armour, terminator armour that has, in some fluff, withstood lascannons. Railgun>Lascannon
Yeah, because tank mounted railguns clearly wouldn't be superior to what began life as crew served weaponry, right?
Lascannons are, quite frankly, meant to be burning through tanks. They do well at that. Terminator Armour has withstood lascannons not because of the ceramite, but because of the shield generators mounted in the armor and the armor proper
4. Another example of GW not knowing anything it writes about, it is almost as stupid as how they portray Gauss cannons.
You mean the Gauss weaponry that isn't meant to be magnetic accelerators? There's a reason the Gauss weaponry employed by Necrons are called Gauss Flayers.
Railgun is a magnetic weapon who shoots projectile at high speeds.
I don't see what the big deal with that weapon is. Sure, projectile can go as fast as 2 - 2.500 km/s but that doesn't mean that it can penetrate mountains. And the weapon fires slowly so they have only 1 shot against any target.
The question should be: how big projectiles can Tau railgun fire? And can they be of various ammunition? ( EMP, Exploading rounds... )
im2randomghgh wrote:5th part: Doesn't matter, a ship rolling upside down or to it's side is nothing in space.
When did the laws of physics stop working in space?
Every fluff situation has said that turning big battle ships is quite tedious.
If a several mile long ship turns at high speeds... it won't end well, gravity or not it still has a centre of mass and stuff will be sent flying.
Example - Vandred's maneuver in Soul Hunter. The crew thought it would be stupid, and were left throwing up on the floor after it. It caused hull stress and incapacitated the crew. Good damn job.
im2randomghgh wrote: 1st part: They conceal their base with stealth technology. In case you haven't noticed, they have superior tech when compared to the IoM, with only Necrons and MAYBE Eldar being more advanced. Being able to hide from these sensor sweeps only makes sense.
What?
Tau don't have Warp technology or teleportation technology. They also lack genetic alteration technology as well as psy technology.
Tau are not technologically more advanced than IoM, not yet anyway...
1st part: They conceal their base with stealth technology. In case you haven't noticed, ...blah blah.....
oh really?
im2randomghgh wrote:
4th part: Maybe if they had dozens and dozens of Hydras, but a single AA position is insufficient for downing mantas. Expecially Mantas going at Mach 2.
The imperial anti aircraft installations like to thank you for your ignorance. Maybe these wracks over there should have been a warning?
im2randomghgh wrote:
It is unrelated but super-awesome sauce.
cool. now we fill this thread with unrelated spam.
1hadhq wrote:
4th part: Maybe if they had dozens and dozens of Hydras, but a single AA position is insufficient for downing mantas. Expecially Mantas going at Mach 2.
And 2 Mach is quite slow to us now. Imagine in 38.000 years, were they have fighter that can go 6.000 km without any problem.
I think Imperial AA can get anything at that speed without problem.
Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.
Maybe someday the Imperium will have, you know, like 1 conquered Tau world to brag about, that wasn't just a world they lost then reclaimed. Until then, I think the Tau are sitting pretty fine on the multiple SYSTEMS they have stolen from the terribaddies known as the Imperium.
Whats better is that there are Marines in Dreadnoughts older then the Tau race!
As for the OP, The Tau have wiped out a Titan before, believe it was a warhound on Taros, though I want to say during the DGC they killed one aswell.
At any rate, the Tau didn't really have to do anything substantial to bring the Titan down. A retro-fitted Tiger Shark isn't a galaxy shattering innovation, well, maybe to the Imperial witch doctors it is, but to the Tau it's simply putting piece "a" into slot "a" and killing a baddie. What's alarming, is that such a young race fought such an old race and found a way to smash the face off some of their best technology with relative ease. That is, unless someone wants to explain the difficulty in pressing the red button in a cockpit of a fighter bomber.
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purplefood wrote:The Imperium have the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT /Autowin
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.
Maybe someday the Imperium will have, you know, like 1 conquered Tau world to brag about, that wasn't just a world they lost then reclaimed. Until then, I think the Tau are sitting pretty fine on the multiple SYSTEMS they have stolen from the terribaddies known as the Imperium.
Whats better is that there are Marines in Dreadnoughts older then the Tau race!
As for the OP, The Tau have wiped out a Titan before, believe it was a warhound on Taros, though I want to say during the DGC they killed one aswell.
At any rate, the Tau didn't really have to do anything substantial to bring the Titan down. A retro-fitted Tiger Shark isn't a galaxy shattering innovation, well, maybe to the Imperial witch doctors it is, but to the Tau it's simply putting piece "a" into slot "a" and killing a baddie. What's alarming, is that such a young race fought such an old race and found a way to smash the face off some of their best technology with relative ease. That is, unless someone wants to explain the difficulty in pressing the red button in a cockpit of a fighter bomber.
Lol. Do you always go on these satirical rants when you feel your faction is threatened by opposing fans? I find you to be massively hypocritical in nearly every thread you post in. First you start out ok, probably some at least reasoned comment, about the Tau obviously, but it always degenerates into this unbridled fanboy ranting. Face it, your faction is small and pointless, its victories are small and insignificant, no matter how you paint it. The victories of the Hrud and other such minor threats exceed that of the Tau. Have fun feebly frog hopping your way to eventual destruction.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Considering that the fluff always depicts the railguns as outranging pretty much everything else, I doubt it.
I may well be wrong here, but aren't Emperor Titans said to be capable of trading shots with ships in orbit (although I doubt they do it very successfully)? I would also assume that there was a reason that the Tigershark hitting the Warhound on Taros seemed to go fairly close.
I mean for feths sake, real world railguns are estimated of being able to strike a target at up to 200km away with trajectory (over the horizon fire), and I recall reading somewhere that if they could figure out how to mount them (the full sized naval railguns) on aircraft they could theoretically be able to fire a direct shot at least that far depending on altitude, etc.
Which is presumably theoretical and quite possibly isn't exactly what Games Workshop were thinking of when they gave the Tau railguns. It's possible that they use railguns in a slightly different manner than that in which we're trying to develop them.
As for taking air superiority, its not impossible, the Tau have done it before (in fact, it seems to be the one thing that that the Imperium really does have trouble doing when fighting against the Tau).
They have, but with an Emperor Titan the Imperium's going to have more resources in the fight and logically more air cover as well as anti-air (aside from that which the Titan itself supplies). An Emperor Titan will also take a lot more hits than the Warhound did; it certainly won't be one pass taking it out.
Please keep your titan based fanboyism to yourself and use actual logic and reasoning when trying to argue a point.
im2randomghgh wrote:
1st part: They conceal their base with stealth technology. In case you haven't noticed, they have superior tech when compared to the IoM, with only Necrons and MAYBE Eldar being more advanced. Being able to hide from these sensor sweeps only makes sense.
What?
Tau don't have Warp technology or teleportation technology.
They also lack genetic alteration technology as well as psy technology.
Tau are not technologically more advanced than IoM, not yet anyway...
They don't go further into the warp because they don't have the navigator gene, and it would kill them.
They don't have psy technology, because they don't have psy. duhh.
The only reason IoM has genetic alteration is because the EoM, a GOD, made a pact with the gods of chaos.
And Kanluwen, Mass Drivers and railguns ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
To start off, Mass Drivers aren't weapons. Railguns use magnetically charged rails to propel a load down the length of the barrel, while mass drivers propel a load using an airtight tube hundreds of kilometers long (anything less is insufficient for any results) meant to propel a load up and unfathomably gentle incline. It uses coils of wire which are electromagnetically charged in sequential firing to propel a load which then continues on it's own due to momentum. Railgun involves the entire rail being charged the entire time.
While it does bare similarities to a gauss weapon, it does NOT bear similarities to a railgun, save for the magnetic force being used to propel the load.
Mass Drivers can be utilized as weapons. There's research going on right now about it, with the main objective being orbital mass drivers that will be able to hit targets on the Earth's surface.
im2randomghgh wrote:5th part: Doesn't matter, a ship rolling upside down or to it's side is nothing in space.
When did the laws of physics stop working in space?
Every fluff situation has said that turning big battle ships is quite tedious.
If a several mile long ship turns at high speeds... it won't end well, gravity or not it still has a centre of mass and stuff will be sent flying.
Example - Vandred's maneuver in Soul Hunter. The crew thought it would be stupid, and were left throwing up on the floor after it. It caused hull stress and incapacitated the crew. Good damn job.
The artificial gravity failed. Your point? The ship was falling apart to begin with.
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Kanluwen wrote:Mass Drivers can be utilized as weapons. There's research going on right now about it, with the main objective being orbital mass drivers that will be able to hit targets on the Earth's surface.
Actually Mass Driver research is being done with the goal of launching spacecraft.
Railguns are being tested as weapons.
Coilguns (MD cousins, still not MD tho) are being tested as weapons.
MD are not so much being thought of as weapons. Anything that can propel something that fast could be used as a weapon, it just isn't the primary purpose.
Mass Drivers as Weapons wrote:Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface).[22][23][24]
iproxtaco wrote:Those are kind of flimsy excuses to their obvious technological inferiority in certain areas.
The third point is completely and utterly wrong though.
They aren't excuses. They can go into the warp at will, they simply have to go in for short periods of time since they have neither navigators, something completely and entirely useful for any other kind of warp travel, or the astronomicon, something similarly important.
Why, praytell, would they build psy technology if it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever to a race of non-psykers?
And the third point is entirely correct. Read the HH, fanboy.
iproxtaco wrote:Those are kind of flimsy excuses to their obvious technological inferiority in certain areas.
The third point is completely and utterly wrong though.
They aren't excuses. They can go into the warp at will, they simply have to go in for short periods of time since they have neither navigators, something completely and entirely useful for any other kind of warp travel, or the astronomicon, something similarly important.
Actually, they can't go into the Warp. They "skim" the edges of it.
Why, praytell, would they build psy technology if it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever to a race of non-psykers?
You do know that they count an entire race of Psykers under their dominion, right? The Nicassar ring a bell?
And the third point is entirely correct. Read the HH, fanboy.
I'd suggest you cite a source. The only hints we've seen of such a thing are visions of madmen or the Ruinous Powers manipulating the Primarchs.
Mass Drivers as Weapons wrote:Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface).[22][23][24]
could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery
In principle. A kitchen knife could be a weapon in principle, doesn't change the fact it's a tool, not a weapon.
It is being investigated by the U.S. Military because they are determined not to let a theoretical weapon be researched by their enemies before them. It is caution, nothing more.
My point still stands. They are not weapons. They are meant for catapulting objects into the void.
Railguns are weapons.
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Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Those are kind of flimsy excuses to their obvious technological inferiority in certain areas.
The third point is completely and utterly wrong though.
They aren't excuses. They can go into the warp at will, they simply have to go in for short periods of time since they have neither navigators, something completely and entirely useful for any other kind of warp travel, or the astronomicon, something similarly important.
Actually, they can't go into the Warp. They "skim" the edges of it.
Why, praytell, would they build psy technology if it would do absolutely nothing whatsoever to a race of non-psykers?
You do know that they count an entire race of Psykers under their dominion, right? The Nicassar ring a bell?
And the third point is entirely correct. Read the HH, fanboy.
I'd suggest you cite a source. The only hints we've seen of such a thing are visions of madmen or the Ruinous Powers manipulating the Primarchs.
1. Exactly. they skim into it. Their ships leave realspace and enter the shallow waters of the warp, then re-emerge.
2. The Nicassar aren't Tau. They have their own psychoactive technology, but, like the kroot, are highly autonomous. Nicassar technology and Tau technology are different.
3. "Daemons only tell the truth when no one will believe them" You're so dead set I see no point in trying to sway you.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.
Maybe someday the Imperium will have, you know, like 1 conquered Tau world to brag about, that wasn't just a world they lost then reclaimed. Until then, I think the Tau are sitting pretty fine on the multiple SYSTEMS they have stolen from the terribaddies known as the Imperium.
Whats better is that there are Marines in Dreadnoughts older then the Tau race!
As for the OP, The Tau have wiped out a Titan before, believe it was a warhound on Taros, though I want to say during the DGC they killed one aswell.
At any rate, the Tau didn't really have to do anything substantial to bring the Titan down. A retro-fitted Tiger Shark isn't a galaxy shattering innovation, well, maybe to the Imperial witch doctors it is, but to the Tau it's simply putting piece "a" into slot "a" and killing a baddie. What's alarming, is that such a young race fought such an old race and found a way to smash the face off some of their best technology with relative ease. That is, unless someone wants to explain the difficulty in pressing the red button in a cockpit of a fighter bomber.
Lol. Do you always go on these satirical rants when you feel your faction is threatened by opposing fans? I find you to be massively hypocritical in nearly every thread you post in. First you start out ok, probably some at least reasoned comment, about the Tau obviously, but it always degenerates into this unbridled fanboy ranting. Face it, your faction is small and pointless, its victories are small and insignificant, no matter how you paint it. The victories of the Hrud and other such minor threats exceed that of the Tau. Have fun feebly frog hopping your way to eventual destruction.
A rant?
Unbridled fanboy ranting?
Did I say something false? If so I'll recant, until then hater... you just keep hatin!
fyi - Comparing Tau tech to human present day tech is a fail. I'd say stick to sci-fi in universe or nothing at all. If a Bolter is described as being stronger then a lasgun in 40K real life science is worthless. Fluff > Real life comparisons. Same goes for Railguns, Lascannons, pulse rifles etc
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.
nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.
Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.
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Alpharius wrote:Whoa!
Rule #1 violations... so many of them...
Repeat this phrase "Toy Soldiers.... they are just toy soldiers!"
Seriously - too many Mod Alerts about this thread - everyone needs to calm down.
nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.
Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.
4 ed, 2008 printing, page 14, bottom left, in the little box. It's a quote from Major Kane, Mordant 607 Heavy armored regiment. It might be a sticking point that it dosen't call the weapon a rail gun, but is says it was on a light walker and all the other light walker weapons are energy weapons or explosives that would have split open the hull. (outside of kroot, the rail gun is the only solid shot weapon the tau have.)
Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.
I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.
Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.
Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons. Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.
If you read the fluff piece that Kanluwen posted from Taros, it DID explode as the shot penetrated the armor.
im2randomghgh wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Pardon my ignorance but how many Titans were downed in the book?
A single warhound brought down by markerlights and seeker missiles is the official tally. I swear I recalled reading that another titan was lost to a similar attack on another part of the battlefield or something like that, but I can't find the reference.
Ironically enough, the Imperium was a bigger threat to its own Titans than the Tau, a psycho Inquisitor was ready to exterminatus the planet via virus bomb on the planet (which would have destroyed the titans as well) before anyone could evac.
Titans can seal off all airflow and survive virus bombs. Read the HH, Istvaan III.http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/150/3223490.page#preview
Really? I always read that the virus pretty much consumed everything that was even remotely semi-organic (I.E. contains carbon) and then set the very atmosphere on fire (which would imply a temperature hotter than any known metal could withstand). I'll take your word for it.
Savage Scars does not count, because every other piece of fluff in regards to the battle of Dal'yth makes no mention of Reavers much less Warlords being around.
Andy freaking Hoare strikes again, clearly.
Yeah, no you can't really disqualify any single book off hand like that, basically you would have to disqualify the entirety of the Horus Heresy as well, since the codecies don't really ever mention the existence of people like Erebus, etc. as well as a majority of the events. Same goes for pretty much any book that covers an event described in a codex.
You know what else is an aircraft's 'armor'?
Not being expected. If the Imperium had any kind of anti-aircraft equipment on the ground--you can bet your sweet blue bottom that the Tigershark would have been shot down.
See my previous post where I calculated the timing of it all. I very much doubt the imperium could have done anything at all about the situation given the miniscule warning period they would have had.
If you say so.
Yeah, because you know, its not like the majority of the Imperiums naval vessels don't have the vast majority of its weapons in fixed mounts along its broadsides, or in the case of a bombardment cannon, on its prow.
That's good for them. Actually, I'd suggest you reread the information about that. It's theorized that the impact will be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile's explosion at a fraction of the cost.
Having taken physics courses and actually run the (unclassified) numbers on the Navy's railgun development as part of a class project (taught by a professor who did some work for the Navy on the system), I can tell you that the theoretical output is very accurate, either that or physics needs to be completely reworked. Its a very basic calculation. Besides that, there is video footage of the much smaller test pieces they have firing at solid chunks of steel and causing rather largish explosions as they punch clean through.
There was no explosion from the impact. There were holes in the hull, that's all.
Read it again
Arial assets didn't survive the attention of the Hydras.
Seems not so awesome, what is brought low by autocannons.
That certainly wasn't the case for the Heretic Air Forces in Double Eagle, Hydra's =/= auto shootdown.
Spoiler:
Hint: They're not. The Imperium has ship-killing weaponry. There's a reason that Abaddon didn't bring the Planet-Killer close to Cadia, and it's not because he was worried the pilot was drunk. One of the most common pieces of ship-killing weaponry is a turbolaser, as in the weaponry that you see mounted on Warhound Titans that kill superheavy tanks. Those "missile silos" that the Raptors spiked on Taros? Ship-killing weaponry.
You're seriously arguing that a weapon that is intended to take down a ship several kilometers long is going to successfully find, fix, track, target, and engage a craft that is 30 meters long and 50 meters wide? Get real. Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbit according to BFG, and you want it to track a miniscule target that is travelling thousands of miles per hour on re-entry?
No, my opinions are worth more than an author who has a well-known bias for the Tau and wrote a book to make them seem far more badass.
There was nothing prior or since Savage Scars to indicate an actual Titan Legion with Reavers and Warlords was present at Dal'yth.
Aside from the 3rd Edition Tau Codex which mentions that titans assaulted Gel'brynn Page60, 3rd edition codex, its like the third word of the first sentence on the page. Hell it even mentions Legio Thanataris by NAME
Until you start actually showing some kind of credibility, you have none.
Railguns are a subcategory of mass driver/kinetic kill weaponry. That's what science says.
You're trying to argue credibility when you clearly show a lack of it? Please get informed before you lose the tiny sliver of it you have left (especially after my previous response).
You mean the Gauss weaponry that isn't meant to be magnetic accelerators? There's a reason the Gauss weaponry employed by Necrons are called Gauss Flayers.
Please open your Necron codex and find the following weapons contained therein: Gauss Blaster, Gauss Cannon, Heavy Gauss Cannon, etc. All of which operate under the same principals.
And 2 Mach is quite slow to us now. Imagine in 38.000 years, were they have fighter that can go 6.000 km without any problem.
I think Imperial AA can get anything at that speed without problem.
Given that a Thunderbolt fighters max speed is 2300 KM/H. Where exactly do you find this magical fighter going Mach 5-6+
Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.
I don't understand it, honestly. Every encounter between the two that has resulted in an Imperial loss (admittedly a rather large proportion) can be explained by a variety of external factors. The Tau have been lucky. Isn't it enough for the Imperial fanboys to know that if the Imperium did turn its full attention at the Tau they would wipe them from the stars? Not like the Tau fanboys are much better though.
I may well be wrong here, but aren't Emperor Titans said to be capable of trading shots with ships in orbit (although I doubt they do it very successfully)? I would also assume that there was a reason that the Tigershark hitting the Warhound on Taros seemed to go fairly close.
No clue, never read that before, although I recall reading that the weapons carried by the largest titans are basically the same as some of the lighter weapons carried by Imperial warships. As for getting close, it may have been to deny enemy AA defenses a chance to respond. If its flying in under the radar and out of sight, nobody is going to know its there until it popped over the ridgeline, as soon as it did that it becomes a VERY big target.
They have, but with an Emperor Titan the Imperium's going to have more resources in the fight and logically more air cover as well as anti-air (aside from that which the Titan itself supplies). An Emperor Titan will also take a lot more hits than the Warhound did; it certainly won't be one pass taking it out.
Agreed.
Well that's just rude.
Yes it is, was it directed as you? Apologies, as the rest of your post in this case seemed rather measured and well thought out.
And in regards to Railguns vs. Mass Drivers, Railguns are a type of mass driver, I don't see what the argument is...
nomotog wrote:
If you want to know how rail guns work, it's page 14 of the tau codex. the little box. The hull of the tank was barley damaged with just two tiny holes, but the crew was sprayed out into a 20 foot blood stain. The hit on the titan probably worked the same way. maybe a little more showy though because it's a ship based weapon.
Are you referring to 3rd ed? I just pull out my 4th ed Tau dex and there's nothing of the sort.
4 ed, 2008 printing, page 14, bottom left, in the little box. It's a quote from Major Kane, Mordant 607 Heavy armored regiment. It might be a sticking point that it dosen't call the weapon a rail gun, but is says it was on a light walker and all the other light walker weapons are energy weapons or explosives that would have split open the hull. (outside of kroot, the rail gun is the only solid shot weapon the tau have.)
Just saw it o.0 I was looking for a picture. Thanks for pointing it out, I would never have seen it.
Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.
I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.
Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.
Seriously?
Those airbases fit a squadron of Thunderbolts and two Lightning Squadrons--and were cramped as all hell. The defense forces, ground crew, and pilots were practically living on top of each other.
Those airbases also were not "hidden from sensors". They were hidden from visual sweeps by camo netting draped over the airfield.
The mass-carriers were carrying fighters and bombers, nothing the size of a freaking Manta. They were also "undetected" because they were at the very edge of the operational range of the Lightning recon variants, and constantly on the move. Prior to the arrival of Marauders in theater, the Imperium had nothing that could make it out that far and actually attack.
The airbases on Taros had multiple Mantas and Orcas, in addition to multiple squadrons of Barracudas and Tiger Sharks. If you're going to try arguing this point more, then I'm going to ask you to produce evidence of "mobile stealth field generators" that are able to hide such a thing. Because if there was, then we'd have stealthed Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.
Since we don't--I'm saying it's impossible.
Tau railguns are orders of magnitude greater than ours, as seen in the fact that in SS, a round that had hit a rock left visible ripples through the massive boulder and cracked it in half, demonstrating their superiority to lascannons. Then step that up to a heavy railgun so massive mantas use them for space combat, and you see why it WOULD make it spectacularly explode.
If you read the fluff piece that Kanluwen posted from Taros, it DID explode as the shot penetrated the armor.
Imperial Armour wrote:The Warhounds continually stalked forwards, obliterating anything in their path, along with the Space Marines, now advancing about their feet, the combined force thrust a sword clean through the Tau defences and opened the way onto the Iracunda Isthmus. The Tau rallied, and the arrival of a fresh Hunter Cadre saw the fighting intensify again. This time the Tau would deploy a new weapon. No Imperial Commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before. The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire. Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded, the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell.
Actually no, it doesn't say that the Titan exploded. It said that the shots "tore through the armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel".
It's pretty clearly being used as a descriptor for the shots tearing through the armour, not saying that there was an explosion.
im2randomghgh wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Pardon my ignorance but how many Titans were downed in the book?
A single warhound brought down by markerlights and seeker missiles is the official tally. I swear I recalled reading that another titan was lost to a similar attack on another part of the battlefield or something like that, but I can't find the reference.
Ironically enough, the Imperium was a bigger threat to its own Titans than the Tau, a psycho Inquisitor was ready to exterminatus the planet via virus bomb on the planet (which would have destroyed the titans as well) before anyone could evac.
Titans can seal off all airflow and survive virus bombs. Read the HH, Istvaan III.http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/150/3223490.page#preview
Really? I always read that the virus pretty much consumed everything that was even remotely semi-organic (I.E. contains carbon) and then set the very atmosphere on fire (which would imply a temperature hotter than any known metal could withstand). I'll take your word for it.
Actually, what it has been described as is that it kills everything organic and releases chemicals during the process that essentially turns the atmospheric volatile--and then an orbiting ship fires a round in, effectively "lighting" the world aflame.
Savage Scars does not count, because every other piece of fluff in regards to the battle of Dal'yth makes no mention of Reavers much less Warlords being around.
Andy freaking Hoare strikes again, clearly.
Yeah, no you can't really disqualify any single book off hand like that, basically you would have to disqualify the entirety of the Horus Heresy as well, since the codecies don't really ever mention the existence of people like Erebus, etc. as well as a majority of the events. Same goes for pretty much any book that covers an event described in a codex.
When there's been multiple things mentioning this particular battle, and none having mentioned it before--then I can disqualify it.
You know what else is an aircraft's 'armor'?
Not being expected. If the Imperium had any kind of anti-aircraft equipment on the ground--you can bet your sweet blue bottom that the Tigershark would have been shot down.
See my previous post where I calculated the timing of it all. I very much doubt the imperium could have done anything at all about the situation given the miniscule warning period they would have had.
You do realize the whole reason that it was effective is because it had never been seen before, right?
It even says as much in that excerpt from the book.
If you say so.
Yeah, because you know, its not like the majority of the Imperiums naval vessels don't have the vast majority of its weapons in fixed mounts along its broadsides, or in the case of a bombardment cannon, on its prow.
I'm aware that they have much of the 'heavier' weaponry mounted on the prow. However things like melta torpedoes, lance strikes, et al can be done as broadsides.
That's good for them. Actually, I'd suggest you reread the information about that. It's theorized that the impact will be equivalent to a Tomahawk missile's explosion at a fraction of the cost.
Having taken physics courses and actually run the (unclassified) numbers on the Navy's railgun development as part of a class project (taught by a professor who did some work for the Navy on the system), I can tell you that the theoretical output is very accurate, either that or physics needs to be completely reworked. Its a very basic calculation. Besides that, there is video footage of the much smaller test pieces they have firing at solid chunks of steel and causing rather largish explosions as they punch clean through.
The "cost" part isn't regarding to the cost of the kinetic energy. It's that the "cost" of the projectile is a fraction of a Tomahawk. The theoretical of it is the same impact velocity as a Tomahawk's explosion, but without that messy explosion. The whole reason they're looking at kinetic weaponry is for 'cleaner' kills.
There was no explosion from the impact. There were holes in the hull, that's all.
Read it again
I've read it. I freaking posted it.
Aerial assets didn't survive the attention of the Hydras.
Seems not so awesome, what is brought low by autocannons.
That certainly wasn't the case for the Heretic Air Forces in Double Eagle, Hydra's =/= auto shootdown.
...You mean the Hydras that had practically no ammo, or the Locusts that were shot down by a Leman Russ Exterminator?
Spoiler:
Hint: They're not. The Imperium has ship-killing weaponry. There's a reason that Abaddon didn't bring the Planet-Killer close to Cadia, and it's not because he was worried the pilot was drunk. One of the most common pieces of ship-killing weaponry is a turbolaser, as in the weaponry that you see mounted on Warhound Titans that kill superheavy tanks. Those "missile silos" that the Raptors spiked on Taros? Ship-killing weaponry.
You're seriously arguing that a weapon that is intended to take down a ship several kilometers long is going to successfully find, fix, track, target, and engage a craft that is 30 meters long and 50 meters wide? Get real. Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbit according to BFG, and you want it to track a miniscule target that is travelling thousands of miles per hour on re-entry?
Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbits because anti-orbital weaponry is designed to hit vessels in an anchored orbit. It's also worth mentioning that those "low orbits" are considered by the Imperial Navy to be dangerous.
No, my opinions are worth more than an author who has a well-known bias for the Tau and wrote a book to make them seem far more badass.
There was nothing prior or since Savage Scars to indicate an actual Titan Legion with Reavers and Warlords was present at Dal'yth.
Aside from the 3rd Edition Tau Codex which mentions that titans assaulted Gel'brynn Page60, 3rd edition codex, its like the third word of the first sentence on the page. Hell it even mentions Legio Thanataris by NAME
Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.
All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.
Until you start actually showing some kind of credibility, you have none.
Railguns are a subcategory of mass driver/kinetic kill weaponry. That's what science says.
You're trying to argue credibility when you clearly show a lack of it? Please get informed before you lose the tiny sliver of it you have left (especially after my previous response).
I'm sorry, but you being unable to read my post fully is not my cross to bear.
It's also kind of difficult for me to take it seriously, since the Damocles Gulf Crusade has no freaking consistency in terms of the make-up. None of the FOCs I've seen, published by GW, have Reavers or Warlords on them.
You mean the Gauss weaponry that isn't meant to be magnetic accelerators? There's a reason the Gauss weaponry employed by Necrons are called Gauss Flayers.
Please open your Necron codex and find the following weapons contained therein: Gauss Blaster, Gauss Cannon, Heavy Gauss Cannon, etc. All of which operate under the same principals.
And please read me telling you that the Imperium named the weaponry, based upon the Gauss Flayer effects.
I'm well aware that Gauss weapons aren't actually what Gauss weaponry as described by science are. It's the title that the Adeptus Mechanicus/Ordo Xenos have given them.
And 2 Mach is quite slow to us now. Imagine in 38.000 years, were they have fighter that can go 6.000 km without any problem.
I think Imperial AA can get anything at that speed without problem.
Given that a Thunderbolt fighters max speed is 2300 KM/H. Where exactly do you find this magical fighter going Mach 5-6+
Yeah, that's a big issue. You can feasibly get things going that speed--but likely the pilots are going to be suffering for it.
Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.
I don't understand it, honestly. Every encounter between the two that has resulted in an Imperial loss (admittedly a rather large proportion) can be explained by a variety of external factors. The Tau have been lucky. Isn't it enough for the Imperial fanboys to know that if the Imperium did turn its full attention at the Tau they would wipe them from the stars? Not like the Tau fanboys are much better though.
And that's the freaking problem. Here I was trying to be polite at the start, and then the standard crap starts up. Suddenly, the Tau's big fluff inconsistencies are facts.
That's the big friggin' issue with these discussions, because it's all theoretical and nothing actually lines up in many of these cases.
I should also add that not every encounter between the two has resulted "in an Imperial loss". How do you think the Imperium got to Dal'yth in the first place?
I may well be wrong here, but aren't Emperor Titans said to be capable of trading shots with ships in orbit (although I doubt they do it very successfully)? I would also assume that there was a reason that the Tigershark hitting the Warhound on Taros seemed to go fairly close.
No clue, never read that before, although I recall reading that the weapons carried by the largest titans are basically the same as some of the lighter weapons carried by Imperial warships. As for getting close, it may have been to deny enemy AA defenses a chance to respond. If its flying in under the radar and out of sight, nobody is going to know its there until it popped over the ridgeline, as soon as it did that it becomes a VERY big target.
There were no AA defenses, so that was silly of the Tau to do.
And in regards to Railguns vs. Mass Drivers, Railguns are a type of mass driver, I don't see what the argument is...
That's kind of the point I tried to get across, but of course he's the Railgunologist.
Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.
I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.
Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.
Seriously?
Those airbases fit a squadron of Thunderbolts and two Lightning Squadrons--and were cramped as all hell. The defense forces, ground crew, and pilots were practically living on top of each other.
Those airbases also were not "hidden from sensors". They were hidden from visual sweeps by camo netting draped over the airfield.
The mass-carriers were carrying fighters and bombers, nothing the size of a freaking Manta. They were also "undetected" because they were at the very edge of the operational range of the Lightning recon variants, and constantly on the move. Prior to the arrival of Marauders in theater, the Imperium had nothing that could make it out that far and actually attack.
The airbases on Taros had multiple Mantas and Orcas, in addition to multiple squadrons of Barracudas and Tiger Sharks. If you're going to try arguing this point more, then I'm going to ask you to produce evidence of "mobile stealth field generators" that are able to hide such a thing. Because if there was, then we'd have stealthed Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.
Since we don't--I'm saying it's impossible.
Yeah, because there aren't any apoc formations that allow stealth vehicles or anything... again, please check before making such a statement. I'll even give you a hint: Its on the GW website, and its called the Pathfinder Long Range Infiltration Unit. The stealth field is so powerful that it disguises the devilfish and units that are within 12" of it(not the Stealth USR, but flat out Stealth Fields ala Stealth Suits). Your arguments have more holes in them than swiss cheese sometimes...
As for hiding squadrons, etc. Do you understand how many ships make one up? Last I checked it was something like 12-20 aircraft (plus weapons, ammo, repair crews, fuel, etc. etc.) per squadron. Hiding 3 Squadrons of aircraft in the jungle is no small feat. As for sensors, there must have been some kind of protection, since I doubt that recon aircraft would be flying around with only visual detection equipment in the 41st millenium. As for the mass carriers, surely the Imperial Navy must have had vessels in orbit (fact, it had to in order to get the Imperial Navy reinforcements that arrived to reinforce the Commonwealth Air Forces) that were performing sensor sweeps of the area. Ultimately it took visual detection by a flight of aircraft to discover them. Also worth noting that the bombers described in Double Eagle are Harbinger bombers (or something very similar to it), roughly the size of a Tau Manta if Aeronautica Imperialis is anything to go by. If these carriers are capable of avoiding orbital detection... and they are capable of carrying bombers that large, then a Manta is sure as hell concealable.
Also worth noting is that in Titanicus the chaos titan legion managed to hide a very large portion of its strength from orbital sweep using a giant artificially created dust/thunderstorm.
Actually no, it doesn't say that the Titan exploded. It said that the shots "tore through the armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel".
It's pretty clearly being used as a descriptor for the shots tearing through the armour, not saying that there was an explosion.
Yeah, but that IS what the argument was about. You claimed that the railgun shot did not cause an explosion at all when it struck the titan, I have proven to you that it did. Don't try changing the point of argument.
Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbits because anti-orbital weaponry is designed to hit vessels in an anchored orbit. It's also worth mentioning that those "low orbits" are considered by the Imperial Navy to be dangerous.
Right, so now you want the anti-orbital weaponry designed to hit something in stationary/anchored orbit to hit a target several orders of magnitude smaller traveling at several thousand kilometers per hour. Do you need me to make this any clearer for you?
Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.
All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.
The codex and the book are written by the same person. The titans were always there... WHY ARE YOU ARGUING THE POINT!!!!!?!? By that logic there is nothing saying that there were warhound titans either, for all we know the Codex wanted it to be a friggin formation of Emperor titans...
It's also kind of difficult for me to take it seriously, since the Damocles Gulf Crusade has no freaking consistency in terms of the make-up. None of the FOCs I've seen, published by GW, have Reavers or Warlords on them.
Considering that I've never seen any sort of FOC published by anyone...
I should also add that not every encounter between the two has resulted "in an Imperial loss". How do you think the Imperium got to Dal'yth in the first place?
I never said that they were all losses, just a disproportionate number were.
There were no AA defenses, so that was silly of the Tau to do.
Its not stated that there was or wasn't, just a titan and a formation of Space Marines IIRC. As Space Marines do have their own organic AA capabilities, I don't see why its not reasonable/possible to expect this. In any case, its called precaution. Theres a reason why military aircraft don't fly the same exact routes on their sorties, even in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no real threat (lesson learned from Bosnia).
im2randomghgh, I do not appreciate that tone of text. It also doesn't help that you are wrong. Railguns are just as much a subtype of mass driver as a coil gun and gauss gun.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.
I think you need to go back to railgun class, because they're called "kinetic weapons" for a reason. They rely primarily upon the mass of the driven projectile to do the damage, with some variants utilizing "fletchette" styled shattering projectiles. That's what the "Submunition" round fired by the Hammerhead is.
MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT
Caps lock does not actually make you right, contrary to popular belief.
I think we all need to realize that, while there are some minor differences between Railguns and Mass Drives, the principals are similer enough.
they both use magnitisim to move solid objects.
if anything, a Railgun is simply a weaponization of Mass Driver technology. Its like the difference between and pressure washer and a flame thrower. both compress liquid and spray it out at high speeds and you could use the 2 liquids in the other machine and it would work. a flamethrower simply has flammable fluid and a ignition source.
a Mass Driver, moves mass with magnitisim. a Railgun moves a mass with magnitisim, with the purpose being the immediate inconviencing of someone you are not on friendly terms with.
the Wikipedia article actually states that Railguns are simply a type of Mass Driver
"Mass drivers as weapons
Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface)."
Let's take Taros, as an example. Rather than seize and hold the surface to orbit weaponry--the Imperium spiked it.
Rather than seize and relocate the Hydra emplacements defending the Tarokeen spaceport--the Imperium spiked them.
I won't even get into the absurdity of the Tau having concealed airbases that are big enough to land and service several freaking Mantas at the same time that somehow are missed in orbital sweeps by the Astartes and Imperial Navy both.
Yeah, because you know its not like the Imperium hasn't been able to hide airbases from sensor sweeps in Double Eagle. Granted they were small, but the Heretic forces were able to hide massive MOBILE land-based aircraft carriers from them either in the same book... If the Imperium/Renegades can do it, then the Tau sure as hell can given that they have a bunch of units with mobile stealth field generators.
Seriously?
Those airbases fit a squadron of Thunderbolts and two Lightning Squadrons--and were cramped as all hell. The defense forces, ground crew, and pilots were practically living on top of each other.
Those airbases also were not "hidden from sensors". They were hidden from visual sweeps by camo netting draped over the airfield.
The mass-carriers were carrying fighters and bombers, nothing the size of a freaking Manta. They were also "undetected" because they were at the very edge of the operational range of the Lightning recon variants, and constantly on the move. Prior to the arrival of Marauders in theater, the Imperium had nothing that could make it out that far and actually attack.
The airbases on Taros had multiple Mantas and Orcas, in addition to multiple squadrons of Barracudas and Tiger Sharks. If you're going to try arguing this point more, then I'm going to ask you to produce evidence of "mobile stealth field generators" that are able to hide such a thing. Because if there was, then we'd have stealthed Devilfish, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.
Since we don't--I'm saying it's impossible.
Yeah, because there aren't any apoc formations that allow stealth vehicles or anything... again, please check before making such a statement. I'll even give you a hint: Its on the GW website, and its called the Pathfinder Long Range Infiltration Unit. The stealth field is so powerful that it disguises the devilfish and units that are within 12" of it(not the Stealth USR, but flat out Stealth Fields ala Stealth Suits). Your arguments have more holes in them than swiss cheese...
Because I don't read Tau Apocalypse formations? I bet you don't know that there's a formation for fielding Tarantula Sentry Guns and Sabre Defense Platforms, do ya?!
Oh, by the way--one of the Devilfish is apparently required to give up the transport capacity. That's...uselessly useful, I guess.
As for hiding squadrons, etc. Do you understand how many ships make one up? Last I checked it was something like 12-20 aircraft (plus weapons, ammo, repair crews, fuel, etc. etc.) per squadron. Hiding 3 Squadrons of aircraft in the jungle is no small feat. As for sensors, there must have been some kind of protection, since I doubt that recon aircraft would be flying around with only visual detection equipment in the 41st millenium.
You're assuming that the Blood Pact forces had recon aircraft and ground scanning sensors. We had nothing suggesting such.
As for the mass carriers, surely the Imperial Navy must have had vessels in orbit (fact, it had to in order to get the Imperial Navy reinforcements that arrived to reinforce the Commonwealth Air Forces) that were performing sensor sweeps of the area. Ultimately it took visual detection by a flight of aircraft to discover them. Also worth noting that the bombers described in Double Eagle are Harbinger bombers (or something very similar to it), roughly the size of a Tau Manta if Aeronautica Imperialis is anything to go by. If these carriers are capable of avoiding orbital detection... and they are capable of carrying bombers that large, then a Manta is sure as hell concealable.
They weren't Harbingers being launched from the Mass Carriers. They were Hell Talons and Hell Blades.
Also worth noting is that in Titanicus the chaos titan legion managed to hide a very large portion of its strength from orbital sweep using a giant artificially created dust/thunderstorm.
Considering orbital sweeps apparently are utilizing the Mark I Eyeball for the Imperium--I think that's the issue.
Actually no, it doesn't say that the Titan exploded. It said that the shots "tore through the armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel".
It's pretty clearly being used as a descriptor for the shots tearing through the armour, not saying that there was an explosion.
Yeah, but that IS what the argument was about. You claimed that the railgun shot did not cause an explosion at all when it struck the titan, I have proven to you that it did. Don't try changing the point of argument.
I said that the Titan did not explode.
His statement was that the Titan "exploded". I said it did not.
Anti-orbital weaponry has trouble hitting an Imperial Cruiser in stationary low orbits because anti-orbital weaponry is designed to hit vessels in an anchored orbit. It's also worth mentioning that those "low orbits" are considered by the Imperial Navy to be dangerous.
Right, so now you want the anti-orbital weaponry designed to hit something in stationary/anchored orbit to hit a target several orders of magnitude smaller traveling at several thousand kilometers per hour. Do you need me to make this any clearer for you?
You don't need to "hit something" when fire from these turbolasers merely passing close can seriously damage Imperial Guard Mass Conveyers or the 'drop cocoons' for the full-sized Battle Titans.
We also don't know the capability of the missiles. They could very well have seeking warheads, which is not beyond the Imperium's grasp despite the supposed technobarbarism.
Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.
All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.
The codex and the book are written by the same person.
Read the cover page of Codex: Tau and Savage Scars again.
Codex: Tau(NOT Tau Empire), where that piece premiered, was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeill. No sign, at all, of Andy Hoare.
The titans were always there... WHY ARE YOU ARGUING THE POINT!!!!!?!? By that logic there is nothing saying that there were warhound titans either, for all we know the Codex wanted it to be a friggin formation of Emperor titans...
Because you are failing to comprehend what is a simple point.
It says "titans from Legio Thanataris". It does not say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". It's like if I were to say that the Hunter Cadre led an assault on a single bunker--you would be saying "Bwuh?". If I said "Fire Warriors from the Hunter Cadre" did the same thing--you would understand that it is a much different situation.
It's also kind of difficult for me to take it seriously, since the Damocles Gulf Crusade has no freaking consistency in terms of the make-up. None of the FOCs I've seen, published by GW, have Reavers or Warlords on them.
Considering that I've never seen any sort of FOC published by anyone...
I'll see if I can find it, because it's a perfect example of GW stupidity. It had more Space Marines than Imperial Guardsmen present, and was a perfect example of Pete Haines at work.
I should also add that not every encounter between the two has resulted "in an Imperial loss". How do you think the Imperium got to Dal'yth in the first place?
I never said that they were all losses, just a disproportionate number were.
Which is my big beef with the whole thing about the Tau. I have no problem with the Tau winning or being a "power on the rise". It's the way that it keeps happening that I have a problem with. It's clear that GW realizes they screwed the pooch with the Tau, and they have to keep inventing new superweapons to prevent the Tau from being wiped out or to put them on level footing against the Major Players.
It's like watching GI Joe and wondering what new miraculous toy the Joes will pull out to counter Cobra this week.
There were no AA defenses, so that was silly of the Tau to do.
Its not stated that there was or wasn't, just a titan and a formation of Space Marines IIRC. As Space Marines do have their own organic AA capabilities, I don't see why its not reasonable/possible to expect this. In any case, its called precaution. Theres a reason why military aircraft don't fly the same exact routes on their sorties, even in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where there is no real threat (lesson learned from Bosnia).
The Space Marine AA capabilities are Land Raider Helios and Whirlwind Hyperios.
Land Raider Helioses were not present, so it just leaves Whirlwind Hyperios.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.
I think you need to go back to railgun class, because they're called "kinetic weapons" for a reason. They rely primarily upon the mass of the driven projectile to do the damage, with some variants utilizing "fletchette" styled shattering projectiles. That's what the "Submunition" round fired by the Hammerhead is.
MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT
Caps lock does not actually make you right, contrary to popular belief.
I hope you realize that almost every weapon ever conceived is a kinetic weapon. A club is a kinetic weapon, a modern rifle is a kinetic weapon, a sword is a kinetic weapon. Are they mass drivers too?
And Coil/Gauss gun (same gun, two names) are not a sub-type of mass-driver, a mass driver is a sub-type of coil gun.
A Mass Driver is an over-sized version of a coil/gauss gun, meant for accelerating objects past escape velocity.
A railgun is not a coilgun.
Therefore, a railgun is not a mass driver.
Railguns use a pair of magnetically charged rails which propel an object down it's length. The rails maintain their charge all throughout.
A Coil/Gauss/Mass Driver has a series of electro magnetic coils which use sequential firing to bring the object to speed while using less energy than a railgun, albeit with a smaller result.
im2randomghgh wrote: Therefore, a railgun is not a mass driver.
to quote myself just a few posts up
the Wikipedia article actually states that Railguns are simply a type of Mass Driver
"Mass drivers as weapons
Small to moderate size high-acceleration electromagnetic projectile launchers are currently undergoing active research by the military for use as ground-based or ship-based weapons (most often railguns but coilguns in some cases). On larger scale than weapons currently near deployment but sometimes suggested in long-range future projections, a sufficiently high velocity linear motor, a mass driver, could in principle be used as intercontinental artillery (or, if built on the Moon or in orbit, used to attack a location on Earth's surface)."
Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.
Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.
Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.
They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.
I know it's ugly but this is supposed to be a family tree type thing demonstrating the difference:
im2randomghgh wrote:Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.
Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.
Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.
Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.
They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.
I know it's ugly but this is supposed to be a family tree type thing demonstrating the difference:
What do the coils of a Mass Driver make when they are together?
Electromagnets.
What are the rails of a Railgun made of?
Electromagnets.
and your diagram leads from the generic Mass Driver to the more specific Railgun.
What dose it matter if a rail gun is a mass driver or not? They could call it the woodo do shooty thing. That wouldn't change how it acts and we know how it acts.
nomotog wrote:What dose it matter if a rail gun is a mass driver or not? They could call it the woodo do shooty thing. That wouldn't change how it acts and we know how it acts.
This dude makes more sense than all of you put together.
Larger ship railguns from just the mantas can down a titan with a few shots, with some missiles going in first for the void shields. D strap 1 all over your titans, for +2 on the damage table. Titan dies. Math hammer it.
But did you need a fluff reason? Ok. Single shot railgun vs a imperial lemon russ. Went right through the human tank and kept on rolling without a care in the world. Example is in the tau codex. Now super size that gun for a flyer and boom, problem solved.
im2randomghgh wrote:Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.
Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.
Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.
Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.
They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.
I know it's ugly but this is supposed to be a family tree type thing demonstrating the difference:
What do the coils of a Mass Driver make when they are together?
Electromagnets.
What are the rails of a Railgun made of?
Electromagnets.
and your diagram leads from the generic Mass Driver to the more specific Railgun.
It is a family tree thing. It starts at magnetic propulsion. top-down.
And mass driver is more specific.
The difference is so enormous that you holding your view point still makes me lose faith in humanity.
Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.
All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.
The codex and the book are written by the same person.
Read the cover page of Codex: Tau and Savage Scars again.
Codex: Tau(NOT Tau Empire), where that piece premiered, was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeill. No sign, at all, of Andy Hoare.
Oh how embarassing
Because you are failing to comprehend what is a simple point.
It says "titans from Legio Thanataris". It does not say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". It's like if I were to say that the Hunter Cadre led an assault on a single bunker--you would be saying "Bwuh?". If I said "Fire Warriors from the Hunter Cadre" did the same thing--you would understand that it is a much different situation.
I understand the difference, but to me you are arguing semantics. Why does the fact that it says titans from Legio Thanataris preclude the possibility of Reaver and Warlord titans? And to be fair, the strength of the Legion on Da'lyth is never stated to be its full strength anywhere, we know that Titan Legions often split their strength up across numerous fronts, etc. Its perfectly reasonable that they sent a few reavers and a warlord along with a bunch of warhounds, and had the rest of their strength elsewhere. In Titanicus for example, its stated that Legio whatsitcalled had some of its strength away handling other commitments... yet they still managed to field some 60 some-odd engines...
Which is my big beef with the whole thing about the Tau. I have no problem with the Tau winning or being a "power on the rise". It's the way that it keeps happening that I have a problem with. It's clear that GW realizes they screwed the pooch with the Tau, and they have to keep inventing new superweapons to prevent the Tau from being wiped out or to put them on level footing against the Major Players.
It's like watching GI Joe and wondering what new miraculous toy the Joes will pull out to counter Cobra this week.
I feel like thats the case with the Imperium though, just in reverse (creating new superweapons to prevent them from being wiped out, etc.). Draigo strikes me as a prime example....
Mass Drivers ARE NOT RAILGUNS.
Do you know WHY railguns are called railguns? Because they use two rails which are electro magnetically charged. And Because Railguns NEVER use sequential firing.
Mass Drivers, by definition, cannot ever have rails, nor can railguns lack them.
Mass Drivers can never, ever use rails BECAUSE they need to be used in a vacuum.
They are so fundamentally different from railguns this entire argument is silly.
You're making stuff up now. Nothing in the definition of a Mass Driver precludes the possibility of rails.
In fact, railguns always can work in a vacuum, as they are merely directed magnetic fields. A rail gun is really the broad term for an electromagnetically propelled round with direction and a firing command.
Any energy source capable of creating a directed, or controllable magnetic field, can be a rail-gun device.
Sorry bud, but you really need to reread that part.
All it says is "Titans from Legio Thanataris". It doesn't say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". Minor distinction, sure--but it's not like there's a whole freaking lot to go on. "Savage Scars" says something completely different from the actual force make-up that GW published when the revised Tau codex was released.
The codex and the book are written by the same person.
Read the cover page of Codex: Tau and Savage Scars again.
Codex: Tau(NOT Tau Empire), where that piece premiered, was written by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, and Graham McNeill. No sign, at all, of Andy Hoare.
Oh how embarassing
It happens.
Because you are failing to comprehend what is a simple point.
It says "titans from Legio Thanataris". It does not say "The Titan Legio Thanataris". It's like if I were to say that the Hunter Cadre led an assault on a single bunker--you would be saying "Bwuh?". If I said "Fire Warriors from the Hunter Cadre" did the same thing--you would understand that it is a much different situation.
I understand the difference, but to me you are arguing semantics. Why does the fact that it says titans from Legio Thanataris preclude the possibility of Reaver and Warlord titans? And to be fair, the strength of the Legion on Da'lyth is never stated to be its full strength anywhere, we know that Titan Legions often split their strength up across numerous fronts, etc. Its perfectly reasonable that they sent a few reavers and a warlord along with a bunch of warhounds, and had the rest of their strength elsewhere. In Titanicus for example, its stated that Legio whatsitcalled had some of its strength away handling other commitments... yet they still managed to field some 60 some-odd engines...
But you see, here's the problem. It comes down to the whole thing about the Tiger Shark being "the answer to the Warhound". If that's their answer to the Warhound, that's pretty clearly meaning that they have yet to encounter Warlords, Reavers, or Imperators.
It might be semantics, but semantics are important when dealing with the minutiae of the absurdly little amount of fluff we have on the Tau.
Which is my big beef with the whole thing about the Tau. I have no problem with the Tau winning or being a "power on the rise". It's the way that it keeps happening that I have a problem with. It's clear that GW realizes they screwed the pooch with the Tau, and they have to keep inventing new superweapons to prevent the Tau from being wiped out or to put them on level footing against the Major Players.
It's like watching GI Joe and wondering what new miraculous toy the Joes will pull out to counter Cobra this week.
I feel like thats the case with the Imperium though, just in reverse (creating new superweapons to prevent them from being wiped out, etc.).
Really? Name a "superweapon" preventing them from being wiped out. I can wait.
Draigo strikes me as a prime example....
I figured it would happen eventually, I'm just really disappointed that it was you who did it.
Draigo is impotent. He can slaughter his way across the Realm of Chaos all he wants--everything he's done in there is immediately undone. He can't affect the mortal realm without an active Warpgate allowing him to be 'summoned', he is essentially a Daemon by the fluff.
It's the worst possible fate for a Grey Knight and a devotee of the Imperium. Although, there is an upside I think. If the Imperium released tales of Draigo fighting his way across the Realm of Chaos, and enough people start feeding Draigo worship...he feasibly could become a deity.
Lol, it (Draigo reference) was a joke, relax haha. As for the Tigershark being the answer to the warhound, I don't think its ever really stated that specifically, I thought it was stated that it was the answer to Imperial titans, at this point I'm too lazy to actually bother to check.
I though this thread was about Battle Titans,not Warhounds?Battle Titans are Reavers,Warlords,and by name Emperors.The are not really battle Titns,but the full name is Emperor Battle Titan.
You thought so?
Should have been aware that any Tau thread dives down to "railgunz 1 1 1!" sooner or later.
The lack of encounters with Titans of the first line, makes it hard to decide what may happen.
Additionally the mistake is made, it has to be loyalist machines. Not nice to ignore the traitors.
Plus the latest story of imperium vs tau seems to be considered invalid by some posters.
If we take GW's approach to it, the model to sell is the model who wins.
So plastic titans or FW resin most likely wipes the floor with any opponent in the accompanying fluff then.
Back to the start of this thread, a race like Tau who try to preserve ressources tends to keep out of the major conflicts.
Battle Titans aren't fielded in unimportant theathres of war.
So both may never met.
If they do, either the mechanicum wants them dead, and supplies wouldn't be limited and the battle would soak up so many ressources the Tau empire bleeds dry, or the Tau find themselves between some warring factions and decide to "ally" with one of them.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.
MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT
It's their world, so they can write whatever they want.
In 40k Railguns don't explode on impact...
Being the only race with common sense, they'll probably realise that such a valuable strategic asset with such a huge-ass profile is a pretty silly idea and take it out with some high-calibre gun on a small vehicle chassis... Y'know, a valuable strategic asset that isn't easy to shoot at from miles around.
What do the coils of a Mass Driver make when they are together?
Electromagnets.
What are the rails of a Railgun made of?
Electromagnets.
and your diagram leads from the generic Mass Driver to the more specific Railgun.
Seems pretty same to me...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LumenPraebeo wrote:
nomotog wrote:What dose it matter if a rail gun is a mass driver or not? They could call it the woodo do shooty thing. That wouldn't change how it acts and we know own it acts.
This dude makes more sense than all of you put together.
This all is try to implement logic to 40k world. And that is the impossible mission because one guy say one thing, other guy other thing and they both have enough evidence to support their own claims.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: But you see, here's the problem. It comes down to the whole thing about the Tiger Shark being "the answer to the Warhound". If that's their answer to the Warhound, that's pretty clearly meaning that they have yet to encounter Warlords, Reavers, or Imperators.
Bravo Kan , this is the main point of this thread
To bring down one Warhound ( witch is the smallest and weakest of all Titans ). Tau had to mount main guns from their main battleships to kill it ( like taking a Nova Cannon from Emperor class battleship and mounting it on Baneblade to kill Necron Doomsday Monolith ). And what if that weapon don't work with bigger Titans? And Tau already used the most powerful guns in their arsenal ( their main battleship guns ).
And please don't tell me that the answer will be: "Nah, Tau will make up some weapon that eat Titans and crap Dark Matter."
Does no one here remember the Damocles Crusade? Tau fought Titans there, and they fought the Imperials to a standstill... page 14 of Codex: Tau Empire, trying to find my old codex 'cause I think that had more in it
Edit: and this is some 200+ years before the Taros campaign...
Beregond wrote:Does no one here remember the Damocles Crusade? Tau fought Titans there, and they fought the Imperials to a standstill... page 14 of Codex: Tau Empire, trying to find my old codex 'cause I think that had more in it
Edit: and this is some 200+ years before the Taros campaign...
Really? Aw, we all completely forgot about the Damocles Crusade! I mean, I can't believe no one has mentioned at all over these 8 pages that you obviously didn't bother to read.
Good job, you've added nothing to the discussion because you haven't even bothered to read the first page.
Beregond wrote:Does no one here remember the Damocles Crusade? Tau fought Titans there, and they fought the Imperials to a standstill... page 14 of Codex: Tau Empire, trying to find my old codex 'cause I think that had more in it
Edit: and this is some 200+ years before the Taros campaign...
Really? Aw, we all completely forgot about the Damocles Crusade! I mean, I can't believe no one has mentioned at all over these 8 pages that you obviously didn't bother to read.
Good job, you've added nothing to the discussion because you haven't even bothered to read the first page.
Read most (or all, I dunno, not exactly keeping count) of them, thank you very much, although not all today. There's no need to be so rude about it. However, all people mention is that the Tau 'got whooped by Titans' during that crusade. Clearly not the case, or they would have lost. It states that they were 'countered by Tau Manta Missile Destroyers' - this does not imply that the Tau were completely unprepared or unable to deal with Titans, or that they had to utilise any special equipment or whatnot... the thread asked how the Tau would deal with it, people argued that the Tau cannot, the Damocles Gulf fluff answers the question. What more is there to say, let alone be very pointedly rude about?
Beregond wrote: Read most (or all, I dunno, not exactly keeping count) of them, thank you very much, although not all today. There's no need to be so rude about it. However, all people mention is that the Tau 'got whooped by Titans' during that crusade. Clearly not the case, or they would have lost. It states that they were 'countered by Tau Manta Missile Destroyers' - this does not imply that the Tau were completely unprepared or unable to deal with Titans, or that they had to utilise any special equipment or whatnot... the thread asked how the Tau would deal with it, people argued that the Tau cannot, the Damocles Gulf fluff answers the question. What more is there to say, let alone be very pointedly rude about?
And what part of "impending Tyranid invasion" you didn't understand? The crusade came to halt because of the full might of Tau military involved there ( even Titans can't kill that much that fast, and Imperials didn't have that much troops at the begining what would they normally have in real crusade ). Imperials would get reinforcements without problem, but the approach of new enemy ( Behemoth ) and attack on Macragge change plans. All spare troops + Damocles Gulf forces were appointed toward Ultramar to halt the Tyranids ( I am only guessing it's that because one codex say Behemoth, the other say Kraken ). In any way - Tau were saved by Tyranids and since then Imperial changed tactics - they started to fortify worlds in Ultramar. ( because of constant fear of new Hive Fleet attack ) In any way, Tau will soon have instead of backwater colonies fortress worlds all around them.
And Tau can deal with 1 Titan ( Warhound ) but they still have to invent something for others...
Beregond wrote:Does no one here remember the Damocles Crusade? Tau fought Titans there, and they fought the Imperials to a standstill... page 14 of Codex: Tau Empire, trying to find my old codex 'cause I think that had more in it
Edit: and this is some 200+ years before the Taros campaign...
Really? Aw, we all completely forgot about the Damocles Crusade! I mean, I can't believe no one has mentioned at all over these 8 pages that you obviously didn't bother to read. Good job, you've added nothing to the discussion because you haven't even bothered to read the first page.
Read most (or all, I dunno, not exactly keeping count) of them, thank you very much, although not all today. There's no need to be so rude about it. However, all people mention is that the Tau 'got whooped by Titans' during that crusade. Clearly not the case, or they would have lost. It states that they were 'countered by Tau Manta Missile Destroyers' - this does not imply that the Tau were completely unprepared or unable to deal with Titans, or that they had to utilise any special equipment or whatnot... the thread asked how the Tau would deal with it, people argued that the Tau cannot, the Damocles Gulf fluff answers the question. What more is there to say, let alone be very pointedly rude about?
Rude? Not really. Read the thread or explain yourself better. The Damocles Crusade has been discussed quite a bit this thread, you'd have known that if you had read the thread past the OP. And no, people do not only say 'the tau got whooped by Titans', but again, reading would have told you otherwise. Where does it state the Titans were countered by 'Tau Manta missile Destroyers'? You're clearly ignoring pretty much everything discussed so far in favor of this conclusion which has very little basis of fact. They've downed two Titans. Well done. Two Warhounds no less. Good luck with anything larger.
Beregond wrote:Does no one here remember the Damocles Crusade? Tau fought Titans there, and they fought the Imperials to a standstill... page 14 of Codex: Tau Empire, trying to find my old codex 'cause I think that had more in it
Edit: and this is some 200+ years before the Taros campaign...
Really? Aw, we all completely forgot about the Damocles Crusade! I mean, I can't believe no one has mentioned at all over these 8 pages that you obviously didn't bother to read.
Good job, you've added nothing to the discussion because you haven't even bothered to read the first page.
Read most (or all, I dunno, not exactly keeping count) of them, thank you very much, although not all today. There's no need to be so rude about it. However, all people mention is that the Tau 'got whooped by Titans' during that crusade. Clearly not the case, or they would have lost. It states that they were 'countered by Tau Manta Missile Destroyers' - this does not imply that the Tau were completely unprepared or unable to deal with Titans, or that they had to utilise any special equipment or whatnot... the thread asked how the Tau would deal with it, people argued that the Tau cannot, the Damocles Gulf fluff answers the question. What more is there to say, let alone be very pointedly rude about?
I'm pretty sure nobody who you should be taking seriously said that the Tau 'got whooped by Titans during that Crusade'. I'm pretty sure what the more knowledgeable people said is 'that it is one of two instances where the Tau have been documented facing Titans'.
And in both instances, they have only faced Warhound Titans--which they had to bring ridiculously overwhelming power to bear, to counter said Warhounds.
iproxtaco wrote:Rude? Not really. Read the thread or explain yourself better. The Damocles Crusade has been discussed quite a bit this thread, you'd have known that if you had read the thread past the OP. And no, people do not only say 'the tau got whooped by Titans', but again, reading would have told you otherwise.
Where odes it state the Titans were countered by 'Tau Manta missile Destroyers'?
You're clearly ignoring pretty much everything discussed so far in favor of this conclusion which has very little basis of fact. They've downed two Titans. Well done. Two Warhounds no less. Good luck with anything larger.
Rude? Very. You are assuming I didn't 'bother' reading, implying I am lazy, and your general manner is rather aggressive. But no matter. As for explaining myself better, yes I'll admit I could easily have done if I had my codex with me at the time, which I did not. Ergo I had no reference material, and was specifically looking for it to clarify what I was saying.
Oh and I could grab a direct quote off the first page literally saying that, but I wont because it's a matter of opinion, nothing more. And as Kanluwen said, it's no one I should be taking seriously but that doesn't mean it wasn't said.
Codex: Tau (2001, 3rd edition codex) page 60 line 12. Mantas were used to combat Titans, which is plural. The only thing it doesn't directly say is that they killed X number of Titans there, or the class of Titan involved.
Edit: I'll admit though, I don't particularly care for these sorts of discussions... and honestly couldn't tell you why I posted in this one in the first place so I'm out. Take care, folks.
iproxtaco wrote:Rude? Not really. Read the thread or explain yourself better. The Damocles Crusade has been discussed quite a bit this thread, you'd have known that if you had read the thread past the OP. And no, people do not only say 'the tau got whooped by Titans', but again, reading would have told you otherwise.
Where odes it state the Titans were countered by 'Tau Manta missile Destroyers'?
You're clearly ignoring pretty much everything discussed so far in favor of this conclusion which has very little basis of fact. They've downed two Titans. Well done. Two Warhounds no less. Good luck with anything larger.
Rude? Very. You are assuming I didn't 'bother' reading, implying I am lazy, and your general manner is rather aggressive. But no matter. As for explaining myself better, yes I'll admit I could easily have done if I had my codex with me at the time, which I did not. Ergo I had no reference material, and was specifically looking for it to clarify what I was saying.
Oh and I could grab a direct quote off the first page literally saying that, but I wont because it's a matter of opinion, nothing more. And as Kanluwen said, it's no one I should be taking seriously but that doesn't mean it wasn't said.
By the by: it wasn't until Dal'yth that the Tau deployed Manta Missile Destroyers. Prior to Dal'yth, it's feasible since the Imperium was winning the Crusade up to that point that KamikazeCanuck's point of "the Tau being stomped by Titans" is valid.
You have to remember though that Titans don't just wander the battlefield by themselves. They're deployed for maximum psychological effect. The men of the Imperial Guard view the Titans as towering avatars of war. The presence of Titans on the field gives the men of the Guard a huge morale boost.
Codex: Tau (2001, 3rd edition codex) page 60 line 12. Mantas were used to combat Titans, which is plural. The only thing it doesn't directly say is that they killed X number of Titans there, or the class of Titan involved.
And it looks like, if "Savage Scars" is to be trusted, that Andy Hoare has retconned that into being Skyrays and Markerlights destroying the one Warhound Titan lost in the engagement at Gel'bryn.
iproxtaco wrote:Rude? Not really. Read the thread or explain yourself better. The Damocles Crusade has been discussed quite a bit this thread, you'd have known that if you had read the thread past the OP. And no, people do not only say 'the tau got whooped by Titans', but again, reading would have told you otherwise.
Where odes it state the Titans were countered by 'Tau Manta missile Destroyers'?
You're clearly ignoring pretty much everything discussed so far in favor of this conclusion which has very little basis of fact. They've downed two Titans. Well done. Two Warhounds no less. Good luck with anything larger.
Rude? Very. You are assuming I didn't 'bother' reading, implying I am lazy, and your general manner is rather aggressive. But no matter. As for explaining myself better, yes I'll admit I could easily have done if I had my codex with me at the time, which I did not. Ergo I had no reference material, and was specifically looking for it to clarify what I was saying.
Well that's not at all what you did. You swept in without reading anything and made some broad statement that didn't really have any detail at all. If you wanted clarification, then ask for it.
Oh and I could grab a direct quote off the first page literally saying that, but I wont because it's a matter of opinion, nothing more. And as Kanluwen said, it's no one I should be taking seriously but that doesn't mean it wasn't said.
You don't have your codex, but you could grab that exact quote? I'll believe it when I see it. And no, Coa shouldn't be taken seriously. Ever.
Codex: Tau (2001, 3rd edition codex) page 60 line 12. Mantas were used to combat Titans, which is plural. The only thing it doesn't directly say is that they killed X number of Titans there, or the class of Titan involved.
Right, we know that, it's kind of been covered a few times. There's no 'directly' about it. Class and numbers weren't alluded to at all, simply that there were more than one. Certainly no numbers of defeated Titans, or even that they widely successful. We know that there were Warhound Titans at Da'Lyth, none were downed out of Savage Scars.
iproxtaco wrote:Well that's not at all what you did. You swept in without reading anything and made some broad statement that didn't really have any detail at all. If you wanted clarification, then ask for it.
And this is why I call you rude. You tell me I have not bothered reading, you tell me I made a broad statement, you assume I 'wanted' clarification when I said I was 'getting' clarification. All I can say is damn it my friend, read before you post, and I know what I have done a lot better than you do. And THAT is why I don't take part in these 'discussions'.
My apologies for the off-topic post, but some things I feel just need to be said. I've contributed all I want to at this point anyway.
Kanluwen wrote:And it looks like, if "Savage Scars" is to be trusted, that Andy Hoare has retconned that into being Skyrays and Markerlights destroying the one Warhound Titan lost in the engagement at Gel'bryn.
A warhound is not a Battle Titan.The thread was about battle titans from name.A bunch of Seeker missiles against a Warhound is not valid.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Once again, Imperial fanboys gettin all worked up because the Tau dunk on them.
Maybe someday the Imperium will have, you know, like 1 conquered Tau world to brag about, that wasn't just a world they lost then reclaimed. Until then, I think the Tau are sitting pretty fine on the multiple SYSTEMS they have stolen from the terribaddies known as the Imperium.
Whats better is that there are Marines in Dreadnoughts older then the Tau race!
As for the OP, The Tau have wiped out a Titan before, believe it was a warhound on Taros, though I want to say during the DGC they killed one aswell.
At any rate, the Tau didn't really have to do anything substantial to bring the Titan down. A retro-fitted Tiger Shark isn't a galaxy shattering innovation, well, maybe to the Imperial witch doctors it is, but to the Tau it's simply putting piece "a" into slot "a" and killing a baddie. What's alarming, is that such a young race fought such an old race and found a way to smash the face off some of their best technology with relative ease. That is, unless someone wants to explain the difficulty in pressing the red button in a cockpit of a fighter bomber.
Lol. Do you always go on these satirical rants when you feel your faction is threatened by opposing fans? I find you to be massively hypocritical in nearly every thread you post in. First you start out ok, probably some at least reasoned comment, about the Tau obviously, but it always degenerates into this unbridled fanboy ranting. Face it, your faction is small and pointless, its victories are small and insignificant, no matter how you paint it. The victories of the Hrud and other such minor threats exceed that of the Tau. Have fun feebly frog hopping your way to eventual destruction.
A rant?
Unbridled fanboy ranting?
Did I say something false? If so I'll recant, until then hater... you just keep hatin!
A few things actually. The Imperium have conquered Tau worlds. The ones during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. And don't say "aw but they were re-taken" because that would conflict with your argument.
Systems. Source would be great. A few worlds taken here and there. A fair number have been re-taken, but entire systems is dubious.
Wiped out is a fairly strong phrase to use. Ignoring that it was the weakest Titan class, it wasn't destroyed. It was downed.
Fitting one of your vessels with huge guns seen on much larger flyers seems like a pretty desperate move.
It seems that your over-reaching theme is trying to over-exaggerate everything the Tau do. They've taken some Imperial worlds, oh no! It's like there's never ever been other threats that have done so much more. They downed a Titan, oh no! It's like no other force have ever done something so amazingly insignificant.
My main point was that you always seem to degenerate to fanboy rants when you have literally nothing else to add in opposition to the point.
Kanluwen wrote:And it looks like, if "Savage Scars" is to be trusted, that Andy Hoare has retconned that into being Skyrays and Markerlights destroying the one Warhound Titan lost in the engagement at Gel'bryn.
A warhound is not a Battle Titan.The thread was about battle titans from name.A bunch of Seeker missiles against a Warhound is not valid.
Thank you Deadshot for correcting my error. Whatever would I do without you here to save me?
That's the point I've been trying to make for a year or so now. We have absolutely nothing,aside from "Savage Scars", that says the Tau Empire has faced anything bigger than a Warhound.
Kanluwen wrote:And it looks like, if "Savage Scars" is to be trusted, that Andy Hoare has retconned that into being Skyrays and Markerlights destroying the one Warhound Titan lost in the engagement at Gel'bryn.
A warhound is not a Battle Titan.The thread was about battle titans from name.A bunch of Seeker missiles against a Warhound is not valid.
Thank you Deadshot for correcting my error. Whatever would I do without you here to save me?
That's the point I've been trying to make for a year or so now. We have absolutely nothing,aside from "Savage Scars", that says the Tau Empire has faced anything bigger than a Warhound.
No need for sarcasm.I own sarcasm and didn't give you permission to use it .
Ther fact uis that at the moment,they can't take down anything bigger.The reaver is twice as durable as the Warhound.The QWarlord is 3 times more durable,the Emperor is 4 times.
A warhound is only allowed in units of up to 2 Titans.In the Heresy,the Traitor Titan Legions allowed them to roam in squad sized units.Ever since they can only go off in groups of 2.Battle Titans roam about in squad sized battle forces,consisting of a mixture of Warlords and Reavers,somtimes an Emperor is thrown in for good measure.The Tau cannot win this battle.
And for those who say a Railgun can out range a Titan's guns,the shortest ranged weapon on a Titan is the Plasma Blastgun or Destructor,firing in Rapid mode.The railgun has the same range as this.
You're making stuff up now. Nothing in the definition of a Mass Driver precludes the possibility of rails.
Yes, it does. Mass Drivers use coils that ARE ROUND/spiraled, because it is a huge COIL GUN.
Wikipedia wrote:Coilguns are distinct from railguns, which pass a large current through the projectile or sabot via sliding contacts. Coilguns and railguns also operate on different principles
Ok, you've been going on about the distinction between the varieties of electromagnetic kinetic weapons for a couple pages now. I gotta say; it just plain isn't that important. Yes, coilguns and railguns are different things, technically; but they work by the same principle, and have the same effect, ie powering up magnets to exert force on a projectile and fire it at high velocity.
So, for the purposes of discussing the fiction associated with a far-future sci-fi game where the Red Army in space with lasers is fighting against blue-skinned anime aliens, they're close enough to the same as to make no difference.
On topic; Of course Tau can destroy Battle Titans, if they put enough effort towards that goal. I would, however, argue that a significant Titan deployment would cost the Tau an inordinate amount of effort and casualties to counter. Titans represent a truly massive concentration of firepower in a relatively small space, allowing the Imperium to bring to bear the brute force of a massive armored formation on a single discrete point and achieve decisive breakthroughs. Either the Tau would have to dramatically concentrate their forces to neutralize them, and thus voluntarily engage the IG on their own terms, or they would be placed in the very awkward tactical situation of having a massively powerful enemy force punch through the front lines and rampage in their rear areas. Either way, Battle Titans are (IMO) a win for the Imperium against the Tau.
Anyways, yeah, Tau are able to kill titans, they are just not especially good at it, because the only way infantry can really kill titans is boarding, and that is not exactly a Tau specialty.
There have a few ideas on dealing the bigger things. Before this thread dies the slow death. lets recap.
1. They don't fight it. Run away and deal with it when it's not on. Like in transport.
2. Ship strikes. Icefire misses or rail gun battery from space born weapons.
3. Boarding and infiltration. Everything is weaker on the inside, but the large titans are still guarded. It would be hard.
4. Something new. The tau are always improving there tech so they could build something new and big to kill titans. Good luck guessing what it will be.
An infantry platoon,theorectically,could bring down void shields with a truly, and I mean truly, massive amount of shots, all firing on the same target spot.That is of coarseif they don't get killed by the titan's guns or the Titan's ability to crush them phisically.however,the would not be able to scratch the paint from most Titans.
Outside of Orbital Bombardments,if they even do that,then defeating a Titan Legion is impossible without dedicated Titan killers,like the Imperial Shadowsword,or other Titans.
The tau Empire's best bet would be to steal some Titan Warp Missiles,which phase through the Immaterium to avoid Void Shields,coupled with lots of arial support.
Beregond wrote:Does no one here remember the Damocles Crusade? Tau fought Titans there, and they fought the Imperials to a standstill... page 14 of Codex: Tau Empire, trying to find my old codex 'cause I think that had more in it
Edit: and this is some 200+ years before the Taros campaign...
Really? Aw, we all completely forgot about the Damocles Crusade! I mean, I can't believe no one has mentioned at all over these 8 pages that you obviously didn't bother to read.
Good job, you've added nothing to the discussion because you haven't even bothered to read the first page.
Read most (or all, I dunno, not exactly keeping count) of them, thank you very much, although not all today. There's no need to be so rude about it. However, all people mention is that the Tau 'got whooped by Titans' during that crusade. Clearly not the case, or they would have lost. It states that they were 'countered by Tau Manta Missile Destroyers' - this does not imply that the Tau were completely unprepared or unable to deal with Titans, or that they had to utilise any special equipment or whatnot... the thread asked how the Tau would deal with it, people argued that the Tau cannot, the Damocles Gulf fluff answers the question. What more is there to say, let alone be very pointedly rude about?
Rude? Not really. Read the thread or explain yourself better. The Damocles Crusade has been discussed quite a bit this thread, you'd have known that if you had read the thread past the OP. And no, people do not only say 'the tau got whooped by Titans', but again, reading would have told you otherwise.
Where does it state the Titans were countered by 'Tau Manta missile Destroyers'?
You're clearly ignoring pretty much everything discussed so far in favor of this conclusion which has very little basis of fact. They've downed two Titans. Well done. Two Warhounds no less. Good luck with anything larger.
Rude? Ya Rly.
The smell of angry nerdsweat is palpable over here. Nurgle is pleased.
The tau heavy rail guns can damage titans, and seeker missiles are able to disable void shields. So the question of whether or not the tau have the firepower to destroy a titan seem answered. The question left is, do they have the delivery systems to be able to fight multiple titans of the largest order.
I have not seen anything that indicates that the Warlord or even the Emperor class would be immune to these weapons, just that the tau would not be able to deliver the firepower using their currently available units.
Against any single titan, multiple Tiger Sharks and Mantas seem like enough. Sure they would also be dealing with the imperial navies fighters, but that is true in any battle, regardless of the presence of titans. The tau have other craft for dog-fighting and maintaining air superiority, so it is pretty safe to assume that, unless one side had a distinct advantage, the tau would be able to prioritize a titan.
But even against one battle titan, where you will need more than one good run to eliminate the threat, the single vector approach will fall apart. Look at it from the PoV of a table top player. If you know the only weapon that can hurt your titan is on aircraft, won't you bring a lot of AA gear and let the titan take care of the ground forces? That is the main weakness of the current Tau line up. To truly be able to fight a titan legion, they will need multiple delivery systems for the anti titan weapons. Even a single land based anti-titan weapon would force the Imperial forces to spread their resources.
So as it stands, I think a concentrated titan attack would decimate the tau (leaving out the space forces for now). The tau would need to develop (or, as is more common in the 40k verse, retroactively have) a better variety of anti titan weapons. Imho of course.
What would be more fun that arguing whether or not the IoM is really, really big and titans are invincible, would be speculating on what developments they may come up with for Titan v Tau. Mega ion cannons, Vespid nuetron cannons, XV9000 mega battle suits. Who knows?
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
Do you really think it's as clear cut as that? That everyone is a fan of only one faction? This is not simply an argument between Tau fans and Imperial fans.
I noticed that you have been arguing about everything...
From our universe laws to 40k laws...
From our technology to 40k technology...
From codex to novels, from "this is crap" and "this is great"...
From one viewpoint to another viewpoint...
From facts and claims to evidence and sources...
From logic to common sense...
From this one Titan thread you discussed almost everything there is to know about Tau and Imperium.
But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.
Brother Coa wrote:
But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.
Except that they do...
They don't have anything to fight a big-boy Titan one on one, but they can oppose a larger class of Titan.
This thread shows multiple, incorrect uses of the term "counter."
chaos0xomega wrote:
No clue, never read that before, although I recall reading that the weapons carried by the largest titans are basically the same as some of the lighter weapons carried by Imperial warships. As for getting close, it may have been to deny enemy AA defenses a chance to respond. If its flying in under the radar and out of sight, nobody is going to know its there until it popped over the ridgeline, as soon as it did that it becomes a VERY big target.
I'll try and see if I can find out where I read that. Had a quick look on the internet as well, and others seem to agree with it but no sources I'm afraid. That's possible, but wouldn't that suggest that their range is not suffient to take out Titans while outside the range of Imperial weapons?
Yes it is, was it directed as you? Apologies, as the rest of your post in this case seemed rather measured and well thought out.
It's alright. It's possible I was overestimating Battle Titan capabilities. They are, however, supposed to be a great threat on the battlefield that is difficult to defeat.
Brother Coa wrote:I noticed that you have been arguing about everything...
From our universe laws to 40k laws...
From our technology to 40k technology...
From codex to novels, from "this is crap" and "this is great"...
From one viewpoint to another viewpoint...
From facts and claims to evidence and sources...
From logic to common sense...
From this one Titan thread you discussed almost everything there is to know about Tau and Imperium.
But in the end it all comes down to this: Tau don't have anything to counter the larger Imperial Titans - for now. This one sentence save 9 pages of moral, technological, logical and fan arguments.
Threads do tend to bounce around, but there was still a fair amount of talk of titans and the many ways the the tau can deal with them. Everything from the tiger shark. (It should still be useful on smaller battle titans.) To orbital strikes with icefire. To just running away.
In Savage Scared some stealth suits dropped on a Emperor class titan and after a lot of plasma cutting, they managed to disable a few weapons, so technically if they did that for long enough they might be able to cut inside and kill the crew or destroy a generator to cause it to explode or something.
And then they run into the problems of the crew themselves.
Titans are well prepared against boarding attacks, there is an armory on board with weapons and the crew is trained to fend off boarders. Warlord titans even have whole platoons of troops whose primart purpose is fending off boarders.
the real threat infantry pose is with short ranged anti-tank like Meltaguns and similer stuff. actually boarding the titan would be nothing short of suicidal except for the toughest shock troops like Skittarii(who are often fighting Traitor Titan Legions and do this often) and Space Marines.
another problem with boarding Titans is the danger factor in being inside when the thing comes crashing down, kinda like Helicopters. Tau wouldn't like that risk, especially if they have the option of railguns and Fusion blasters.
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
The latest version of BFG changes that. It says they have new units trained in boarding.
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Why is this, fluffwise? Is it due to inexperience or the tau order of battle?
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Why is this, fluffwise? Is it due to inexperience or the tau order of battle?
Its due to the Tau not liking close quarters combat, even their ship weapons are focused mostly on ordinance like torpedos and strike craft and not hull weapons like weapons batteries and lances.
the Tau Custodian battleship has Gun batteries with 6 shots per side(both can fire forward), 2 lances(one on each side, both can fire forward), 6 strike craft, and 8 torpedos. the imperial Retribution class Battleship which costs almost the same amount of points has 12 weapon batteries per side, 3 dorsal lances(front/left/right), and 9 torpedos.
the Imperial ship also has 2 more hull points then the Tau ship and has better armor on the front.
the Tau advantage is that they can turn their torpedos after they are fired(imperial ones are fired in a straight line and keep going straight unless they can take the guided torpedo upgrade)
if a Tau fleet gets engaged at close range with just about any imperial fleet, the Imperial gun batteries and larger lance arrays will tear the soft Tau ships apart.
Of course tau can kill a titan. Whether it be a massive weapon, tactical planning, sabotage, etc., titans aren't invincible.
So yes, tau can kill a titan.
The main issue is, is this probable in combat? I really can't say. It seems to me that a powerful enough weapon system can destroy a titan. Or a powerful enough orbital/space-bound weapon (railguns, which do work in space [simple electromagnets guys, of course they work in space], could be applied here). Even enough massed flak from a ground based force could wipe out a titan.
The issue mostly is, how competent is each commander? If the titan has ample escort, and the tau are harried so as to make long range-fire inconsistent/weaker, then the Titan wins. Else the tau can probably over come it.
So really, the question is tactics. Technologically it's not impossible to overcome a titan. Tactically, then, it would depend on the skills of each commander.
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Why is this, fluffwise? Is it due to inexperience or the tau order of battle?
Its due to the Tau not liking close quarters combat, even their ship weapons are focused mostly on ordinance like torpedos and strike craft and not hull weapons like weapons batteries and lances.
the Tau Custodian battleship has Gun batteries with 6 shots per side(both can fire forward), 2 lances(one on each side, both can fire forward), 6 strike craft, and 8 torpedos. the imperial Retribution class Battleship which costs almost the same amount of points has 12 weapon batteries per side, 3 dorsal lances(front/left/right), and 9 torpedos.
the Imperial ship also has 2 more hull points then the Tau ship and has better armor on the front.
the Tau advantage is that they can turn their torpedos after they are fired(imperial ones are fired in a straight line and keep going straight unless they can take the guided torpedo upgrade)
if a Tau fleet gets engaged at close range with just about any imperial fleet, the Imperial gun batteries and larger lance arrays will tear the soft Tau ships apart.
I'm not so familiar with bfg, but that makes the tau seem somewhat underpoweref :p
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
Grey Templar wrote:
and finally, Tau don't like fighting in confined spaces. Tau are penalized in BFG when a boarding action is resolved, they are at 1/2 what a ship that size is normally capable of. especially considering that many other races get bonuses. Boarding would be a undesirable course of action.
Don't think that applies anymore. There was something about Tau adapting new tactics (shooting through the walls of adjacent rooms) to stop invaders without coming to harm.
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purplefood wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:This is going nowhere guys...
Tau fans will always say: Manta and Railguns.
We would always say void shields and personal escort.
We need 3'rd party here ( Necron, Eldar and Ork fans ) to tell us the final judgment...
But seriously, Tau ( for now ) can't deal with bigger Titans then Warhound ( people don't say that with Emperor you can hold and entire planet for no reason ), if they ever encounter Titan Legion ( witch I doubt because all Titan Legions are not on disposal ) they would get stomped.
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
No it is actually considered a titant equivalent. Albeit a flying one, but if legs mattered than certain orky titans wouldn't really be titans.
Also, on a side note, the manta is the single largest model ever released by GW, Bigger than their reavers/warhounds/other titan varieties released for non-epic wargaming.
purplefood wrote:
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
I took his statement as they are equivalent in that they both fulfill a similar role; supporting ground forces.
purplefood wrote:
It's not really a titan equivilent though is it?
It can kill them but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
A baneblade (or variant thereof) can kill a titan but that doesn't make it equivilent to a titan.
I took his statement as they are equivalent in that they both fulfill a similar role; ground support.
Yeah but the manta does a lot more than just that...
im2randomghgh wrote:@ the Taros quote, no explosion because GW still hasn't taken their head out of their asses and learned what the Hell a railgun is.
MASS DRIVERS AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
MASS DRIVERS ARE A SUB-TYPE OF COIL/GAUSS GUN, AND RAILGUNS ARE NOT
It's their world, so they can write whatever they want.
In 40k Railguns don't explode on impact...
Very true, but that doesn't mean the target won't explode due to the damage.
Now this is a missile, but this is a special type of missile called LOSAT. The killing principle of this missile is pretty simple, it accelerates a solid metal penetrator to extreme speeds and drives it into the target as hard as possible. Essentially the same kill mechanism as a railgun.
The Manta is primarly a troop lander and a bomber to strafe enemy space ships.
in BFG it is very slow compared to other ordinance(only Thunderhawks are the same speed) like Imperial Bombers and Fighters. its only advantage is durability(4+ save compared to other ordinance which is destroyed if hit. thunderhawks and eldar craft have this save too)
Manta's as surface attack craft, while they have big guns, are very slow compared to Imperial Air support. like Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts. Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts are far more maneuverable then it, meaning it will find it almost impossable to bring its Heavy Railguns to bear on them and must rely on Burst Cannons(which in the game can't even glance the Thunderhawk's Av12. IIRC the Thunderbolt also has Av12)
While a Manta certaintly could drop a Titan, it couldn't do so unless it had heavy Baraccuda support to chase off Imperial fighter cover and even then its risky as the Titan itself could draw a bead on the approaching beast.
Warhounds could probably, assuming heavy urban terrain, even avoid the fire completely with its amazing agility.
Wow. THere is a lot of railgun misunderstanding in this thread ^ ^. But that doesn't really matter. The issue isn't whether the tau can kill a titan, of course they can. The issue is: how would they do this in typical battlefield circumstances?
Assuming air-superiority, a large, railgun like device delivering a kintetic round into the atmosphere could easily take down a titan, or at least breach it. The energy output by such a round would be incredible. On the ground, they could also pepper it with fire from multiple angles, hoping to cripple it with sheer massed firepower. I, however, agree with an earlier post that sabotage/guerilla tactics are the most efficient way for the tau to deal with a titan. A few stealthsuits with sufficient tools could cut through vital systems, crippling the titan. It would be difficult to do, but most likely it would be the most cost effective. To distract whatever retinue follows the titan would be more difficult, and would require a large force capable of drawing attention. In order to minimize enemy firepower, this would probably have to consist of air-power, with long range artillery offering minor support, if at all. Drones would also be efficient choices, as they are small and annoying, but tactically insignificant to lose vs. massed firewarrior waves. Again, the point is they are a cheap diversion. Really, a titan isn't too hard to kill (for an army), which is why they accompany large forces. They're superior firepower that requires a large amount of protection. No matter the armor or defense, it is always easier to breach armor than to withstand attack.
Grey Templar wrote:The Manta is primarly a troop lander and a bomber to strafe enemy space ships.
in BFG it is very slow compared to other ordinance(only Thunderhawks are the same speed) like Imperial Bombers and Fighters. its only advantage is durability(4+ save compared to other ordinance which is destroyed if hit. thunderhawks and eldar craft have this save too)
Manta's as surface attack craft, while they have big guns, are very slow compared to Imperial Air support. like Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts. Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts are far more maneuverable then it, meaning it will find it almost impossable to bring its Heavy Railguns to bear on them and must rely on Burst Cannons(which in the game can't even glance the Thunderhawk's Av12. IIRC the Thunderbolt also has Av12)
While a Manta certaintly could drop a Titan, it couldn't do so unless it had heavy Baraccuda support to chase off Imperial fighter cover and even then its risky as the Titan itself could draw a bead on the approaching beast.
Warhounds could probably, assuming heavy urban terrain, even avoid the fire completely with its amazing agility.
IIRC most of the Imperial flyers were AV10, the marine flyers were AV12, but I will be the first to admit my info may be out of date. Aside from the many burst cannons, the Manta mounts missile pods and carriers a lot of drones. Also, the purpose of the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 was to put some of the Manta's firepower in a more agile delivery system.
im2randomghgh wrote:
A Manta is a titan equivalent that is somewhere in between Reaver and Warlord, so they are not ONLY capable of taking down warhounds.
And when did Tau face Warlord? Do you have source for this?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jefffar wrote:
Very true, but that doesn't mean the target won't explode due to the damage.
Now this is a missile, but this is a special type of missile called LOSAT. The killing principle of this missile is pretty simple, it accelerates a solid metal penetrator to extreme speeds and drives it into the target as hard as possible. Essentially the same kill mechanism as a railgun.
Tank go boom.
For Jeffar's comment: Be it Losat or railgun doesn't matter. The issue isn't whether the tau can kill the titan, because of course they can. it's how to best do this given other tactical considerations.
Aside from that, must a titan explode to be effectively out of combat?
Aside from that, must a titan explode to be effectively out of combat?
It must not.
Titans would retreat to their base if the damage is to severe to actively fight on, except some crews may be to focused on vengeance too much. Titans seem to follow the concept of machines of multiple "lines", like battleships and cruisers in naval warfare did.
To preserve the machine to fight on another day is part of the fluff.
The hips can rotate 100 degrees, so not all the way around.
I do think they can jump, although the usefullness of this is probably limited at best. when you take 10 meter strides and clear the ground by 10 feet there probably isn't much you will need to jump over.
Warhounds are used to combat other titans and commonly run rings around larger ones that simply can't get a fix. They act like PT boats did in WW2, they would be too fast and agile for larger warships to attack effectivly, but they were more then capable of sinking those larger ships.
Grey Templar wrote:The Manta is primarly a troop lander and a bomber to strafe enemy space ships.
in BFG it is very slow compared to other ordinance(only Thunderhawks are the same speed) like Imperial Bombers and Fighters. its only advantage is durability(4+ save compared to other ordinance which is destroyed if hit. thunderhawks and eldar craft have this save too)
Manta's as surface attack craft, while they have big guns, are very slow compared to Imperial Air support. like Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts. Thunderhawks and Thunderbolts are far more maneuverable then it, meaning it will find it almost impossable to bring its Heavy Railguns to bear on them and must rely on Burst Cannons(which in the game can't even glance the Thunderhawk's Av12. IIRC the Thunderbolt also has Av12)
While a Manta certaintly could drop a Titan, it couldn't do so unless it had heavy Baraccuda support to chase off Imperial fighter cover and even then its risky as the Titan itself could draw a bead on the approaching beast.
Warhounds could probably, assuming heavy urban terrain, even avoid the fire completely with its amazing agility.
I has six heavy ion cannons and a dozen seeker missiles. And in fluff 16 HB equivalent weapons would wreck a thunderhawk.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
Hashbeth wrote:
Aside from that, must a titan explode to be effectively out of combat?
It must not.
Titans would retreat to their base if the damage is to severe to actively fight on, except some crews may be to focused on vengeance too much. Titans seem to follow the concept of machines of multiple "lines", like battleships and cruisers in naval warfare did.
To preserve the machine to fight on another day is part of the fluff.
Also, read pg.14 Tau Empire codex. You`ll see what it does to crew
Also, read pg.14 Tau Empire codex. You`ll see what it does to crew
If you pay attention, its irrelevant.
Codex Tau and Codex Tau empire had just firefights, without any casualties mentioned.
So as per your source, no Titan was ever harmed.
Also, read pg.14 Tau Empire codex. You`ll see what it does to crew
If you pay attention, its irrelevant.
Codex Tau and Codex Tau empire had just firefights, without any casualties mentioned.
So as per your source, no Titan was ever harmed.
No, it is what happened when a tank was hit with a light railgun.
Codex Tau Empire wrote:One of their light walkers carried a weapon of lethal effect. It fired a form of ultra-high velocity projectile. I saw one of our tanks after being hit by it. There was a small hole punched in either flank-one the projectile's entry point, the other its exit. The tiny munition had passed through the vehicle with such speed that everything within the hull not welded down had been sucked through the exit hole. Including the crew. We never identified their bodies, for all that remained of them was a red stain upon the ground, extending some twenty meters from the wrecks
Well in reality a rail-type-round piercing a vehicle would probably cause a massive pressure wave to spread through said vehicle, bursting the crew's organs before exit (though if it was too powerful the bullet would just shred the vehicle, and perhaps spare the crew).
Hashbeth wrote:Well in reality a rail-type-round piercing a vehicle would probably cause a massive pressure wave to spread through said vehicle, bursting the crew's organs before exit (though if it was too powerful the bullet would just shred the vehicle, and perhaps spare the crew).
Very well could. At what speed is it going? What is the atmosphere of the tank interior? What is the shape of its interior metalwork? all those have increasing factors. And a truly effective rail projectile for anti-tank would be fired in a ballistic trajectory (to maximize kinetic energy), as the velocity itself would not 'suck the air' out of the tank.
Hashbeth wrote:Very well could. At what speed is it going? What is the atmosphere of the tank interior? What is the shape of its interior metalwork? all those have increasing factors. And a truly effective rail projectile for anti-tank would be fired in a ballistic trajectory (to maximize kinetic energy), as the velocity itself would not 'suck the air' out of the tank.
A round fired in a straight line at 12x the speed of sound is a waste of energy for a kinetic round. If anything, it shows that tau misuse technology, as a ballistic trajectory would do far more damage far easier.
At 12 x the speed of sound, air doesn't start wrapping around a projectile like a blanket. If anything it would be pressure expansion in the tank (caused by disturbing the atmosphere inside the vehicle) rather than pulling everything out of the tank.
Hashbeth wrote:Very well could. At what speed is it going? What is the atmosphere of the tank interior? What is the shape of its interior metalwork? all those have increasing factors. And a truly effective rail projectile for anti-tank would be fired in a ballistic trajectory (to maximize kinetic energy), as the velocity itself would not 'suck the air' out of the tank.
If it passed through in such a way that it didn't harm the crew, then it wouldn't have done any damage. (we are assumeing it his the crew section. If it misses the crew section, then ya i don't think it will hurt what it misses.)
Since Tau doctorin dictates f&m in most circumstances I don't see why faceing a titan would be any differnt. Depending on a defencive role I'm sure the Tau commander would displace from any fixed position and skirmish the titans' retinue until its no longer combat effective. I see and I'm sure any commander would view a titan as any other vehical or suport weapon. Sure the damage it can bring is unimaginable but just like any unsuported unit it will eventually be overrun. Imperial guard and Mech commaners would know that aswell and would eventually withdraw when the time came. Sure, you can have guns that level cities but when you have squad/platoon size engagements it would be horribly cost ineffective to fire those big guns. General George S. Patton once said "Some goddamn fool once said that flanks have got to be secure. Since then sonofabitches all over the globe have been guarding their flanks. I don't agree with that. My flanks are something for the enemy to worry about, not me. Before he finds out where my flanks are, I'll be cutting the bastard's throat." He was also quoted saying "Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." With no special "Anti-titan" weapons on hand, surgical strike teams would be sent to isolate the titan from its retinue and/or "lines" if not just left alone and ignored alltogether.
When the Tau are attacking and the imperium employing the titan in a defensive posture would be to hard to judge options avaible there are to many variables to consider for a vague fourm post.
The problem with fire and maneuver against a Titan is most likely the Titan will just obliterate any force that could get close enough to do damage to it from long, long distance.
There's really not much Tau would need to employ against a Titan than massed Railguns, plus some Heavy Railguns if they have them on site. The main problem is keeping them alive long enough to breach the void shields while bring shot at by Magma Cannons, Laser Destructors, Plasma Annihilators, etc.
the general method of Titan operations is fairly fluid.
Main Battle Titans like Reavers and Warlords will form the main line and will pound enemy positions from dozens of kilometers away, warlords can even engage from over the horizon with their ballistic weaponry like Vortex Missiles.
Warhounds form the advance force. They are grouped in pairs that are given an enormous amount of personal libery in their prosection of the enemy. they never remain still for long and their rapidly moving forms will be difficult for Tau stealth teams to sabotage by climbing on, much less track down in the first place.
Warhounds are small enough to take advantage of actual cover, 45 feet high at rest. Buildings and Trees can provide large amounts of concelment.
The question shouldn't be do the Tau have any weapons that can harm a Titan, which they undoubtedly do, or will have. It can they keep those weapons active long enough to actually do any damage. You have to remember that titans can engage from extreme ranges too, and carry weapons more than capable of wiping a tau vehicle.
In "Savage Scars" by Any Hoare, Tau takes down a Warhound Titan using a combination of Markerlights and Seeker Missiles. It doesn't make much sense from a gaming standpoint, but the fluff is out there. However, Tau had a lot of trouble taking down the Reaver and Emperor class. I'd imagine they would employ Heavy Railguns via Manta and TIGER SHARK AX-1-0, which were originally meant to take out battleships.
From a logistical perspective, an anti-titan aircraft sounds much more effective considering its easier produce and can potentially be fielded in vast quantities.
-Loki- wrote:Come on, everyone knows Tau Railguns are the best weapons ever created.
Angels of Death, Doomsday Monolith, Exterminatus bomb, Blackstone fortress, Bloodtide machine, Nova Cannon...
Should I continue?
Not necessary. But I think it's necessary you start reading entire posts before replying. Because in the very next sentence, I had the following.
-Loki- wrote:... The projectile moves so fast, it hits you before it leaves the barrel. And how is this possible by today laws of psysics? If I am 1000km away how can the projectile hit me before it exit the barrel? This doesen't make sense at all, like starting an engine before using keys...
They should totally make a special rule for it in the game where if you fire it on turn 6, you will actually hit the enemy on turn 3.[/b]
I leave it to you to figure out why reading the rest of that post would have an effect on the first sentence.
First of all - this question is regarding the fluff - not table rules.
Second off all Tau Railguns, aldo awesome guns, are not the BEST WEAPON EVER CREATED IN 40k UNIVERSE. They can't blow entire planet, they can't move at lightning speed, they can't tear down enemy to molecules etc...
AS you can see, I was implementing to fluff, not table. And even on table Railguns are not the ( again best weapon reference ), personal teleportes are.
where the AT-AT is swarmed by Snow Speeders,they take down one walker,with difficulty,by tying it's legs up.Then the AT-AT casually looks up and blows one out of the sky before obliterating the ground forces?
This is what I think about when I here the phrase-"tau vs Titans.
) The Manta never went near it. Which brings me to the second point, according to the book the attack was planned using seekers to overload the void shield and the railguns 'cored' it. It did not seem to be an act of deperation as I have inferred from your post.
that's 2 points. Reaver has 4, Warlord 6, Imperator 8 or 10.
sry
, this is the main point of this thread 
