Since I've been reading some 40k fluff novels, I've noticed a trend. I hate the Adeptus Mechanicus. They always seem to be turning up in the middle of a situation and making it worse. They never seem to want to work with anyone else in the IoM, and assume superiority to every else.
Having read only a limited amount of fluff, I was curious to know if anyone else gets frustrated with any particular 40k faction, and what makes them so annoying.
Space Marines used to not annoy me, but with the recently fluff now they do. Its guaranteed that they'll be awesome and epic and win. Grey Knights are like that taken up to eleven, so I they kind of annoy me too. However, those two factions are both creative and interesting so they don't annoy me too much.
The Eldar also annoy me, with their grand arrogance. Its surprising, considering when they were the most powerful faction in the galaxy, they managed to screw things up even worse than the Horus Heresy. Way to go.
However, the faction that really annoys me is the Night Lords (as some users may already know). Before I read Soul Hunter, I thought they were an interesting and creative concept. The first two Chaos Space Marine Codexes did them well; an army of bloodthirsty renegades who are too corrupt to serve the Imperium but too arrogant to serve Chaos. They were the terror of the Eastern Fringe, striking at random with no remorse and no hesitation. After Soul Hunter I couldn't stand the whiny Mary Sues.
I think Tau annoy me the most, as they always assume that everyone one wants to join their stupid greater good. They also say that the Emperor was noble, but failed to unite humanity through his actions. It was actually the actions of others that caused him to fail.
The Adeptus Mechanicus, like the Administratum and (to an extent) the Ecclesiarchy are doomed to be protrayed as annoyances - usually secondary ones - because they have no tabletop armies, and there is thus no playerbase to whom to appeal (or to avoid offending) by writing them as heroic or competent.
I dislike the DE. In the midst of all the grimdarkness of 40k they seem quite content and happy doing what they do. There's nothing tragic about them. They're like the rich kids in high school who complain that their life is so unfair, an that everyone is out to get them.
DiAF wrote:I dislike the DE. In the midst of all the grimdarkness of 40k they seem quite content and happy doing what they do. There's nothing tragic about them. They're like the rich kids in high school who complain that their life is so unfair, an that everyone is out to get them.
I like the models though, they look pretty cool
They're definitely on top of the world, on account of them having to inflict pain or lose their souls, and having a bad case of defense considering 500 Space Marines fought off, like, the entire population of Commorragh.
Plus the fact that the only one that really can hold them together is Vect, who's pretty much been a general for over eight thousand years AFAIK and virtually the smartest thing in the galaxy aside from Tzeentch.
DiAF wrote:I dislike the DE. In the midst of all the grimdarkness of 40k they seem quite content and happy doing what they do. There's nothing tragic about them. They're like the rich kids in high school who complain that their life is so unfair, an that everyone is out to get them.
I like the models though, they look pretty cool
They'll all die in the end, their method of "immorality" gets weaker the older they get, and it can take an entire planets suffering for an older DE to get any kind of beneficial reaction from it. Eventually they simply require such levels of suffering so frequently it'll be impossible to achieve.
And once that happens it's time for some Slaanesh. Then they won't be so happy.
Prof. Omnom wrote:It was actually the actions of others that caused him to fail.
Some may disagree.
Mr. Self Destruct wrote:Plus the fact that the only one that really can hold them together is Vect, who's pretty much been a general for over eight thousand years AFAIK and virtually the smartest thing in the galaxy aside from Tzeentch.
Vect is also rumored to be nearing his end, his body no longer capable of being revitalised.
On-topic, almost everything about the Space Wolves bothers me.
Jimsolo wrote:Chaos. Specifically, Chaos Marines. They have very little in the way of logic to justify their motivations or their methods of operation.
so far we have heard space wolves, Ad Mech, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Ultrasmurfs, and Chaos Marines.
But what about Orks, Necrons, Nids and Guard?
personally the entire fluff behind marines in general being an unstoppable force capable of crushing an entire planet with a handful of men makes me feel ill to read about.
I don't think that any one faction annoys me. I like how delightfully silly the Orks are, I love how the Dark Eldar are the only ones engaging in the most supreme of indulgences in a universe where the fate of entire planets is decided. I actually like the Space Wolves and their constant battle against the curse of the Wulfen - and I like the tragedy of the Blood Angels, how their great Flaw can cause them to fly into a rage, ultimately losing their mind to the Black Rage.
I really only find issue with single pieces of fluff, like how the Blood Angels allied with the Necrons. Some temporary alliances make sense, like a Marine chapter to (maybe) join forces with Eldar to stop some sort of Tyranid invasion. Blood Angels temporarily allying with soulless machines? Yeah, right. And while humanity's hatred of xenos is legendary, I can at least see a human-Eldar temporary team-up happening if both a Craftworld and human planet were at stake.
Locclo wrote:I really only find issue with single pieces of fluff, like how the Blood Angels allied with the Necrons.
People bringing this up always bug me. Basically you have two sides slugging it out to a stalemate. Then a third much larger force invades. To survive you shift your priorities. So the blood angels and necrons didn't team up, they simply chose to shoot at the 100 nids as apposed to the 1 necron/blood angel you would have otherwise been shooting. They didn't care if the other side lived or died, they just hoped that they took out as many nids as possible while being killed because without their former enemies acting as a distraction either side would have been overwhelmed. At the end both sides had just suffered too many losses and made a tactical retreat.
As far as most annoying faction. I think it is a toss up between the eldar and the space wolves. I just don't like the eldar they just seem silly to me. They are supposed to be all tragic, but their actions far to often make them seem more like the galaxies largest idiots. As for the Space Wolves, I just don't like how primitive and barbaric they are, it seems so out of place in a sci-fi setting.
"Also Eldar. For a dying race that destroyed itself you'd think they'd show a little more humility"
Or not, considering that they don't have much of a race left to make another mistake. I like the arrogance and contempt they hold for other races when it comes to their own survivial (but then I'm a Dark Elf player so its not a surprise)
On Topc: Space wolves, only for the language used in Proposero burns. I ready had to force myself through the first 10-20 pages of murder makes and pesudo-viking babble that makes up the start.
For a Race that did the most to screw the Galaxy over, they sure are snooty and arrogant little .
Yep, because Space Marines, Humans, Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons and other races are humble and not equally arrogant. Name one race that doesn't think it's better than others. (maybe apart from the while IoM craving to be Ultramarines )
I mean Space Marine is genetically modified (but still) a human. When that SM looks down on other human it's OK. When imperial guardsmen doesn't praise and love SM they are donkey-caves.
But when some other race also thinks it's better than humans it's suddenly 'too arrogant'.
'Kill the Xenos!' good. 'Filth Mon-Keigh' bad.
And IoM totally wasn't involved in creation of Chaos Space Marines, propelling all the chaos gods into their power now, wiping out numerous races and other juicy things to screw over the whole world..
But nevertheless, Eldar are arrogant
Back on the topic, I thought for a longer while and I couldn't think of any race that I truly hate. I am however very negative towards any faction (even my favourite ones) after some fanboy praises it without end..
For a Race that did the most to screw the Galaxy over, they sure are snooty and arrogant little .
Yep, because Space Marines, Humans, Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons and other races are humble and not equally arrogant. Name one race that doesn't think it's better than others. (maybe apart from the while IoM craving to be Ultramarines )
I mean Space Marine is genetically modified (but still) a human. When that SM looks down on other human it's OK. When imperial guardsmen doesn't praise and love SM they are donkey-caves.
But when some other race also thinks it's better than humans it's suddenly 'too arrogant'.
'Kill the Xenos!' good. 'Filth Mon-Keigh' bad.
And IoM totally wasn't involved in creation of Chaos Space Marines, propelling all the chaos gods into their power now, wiping out numerous races and other juicy things to screw over the whole world..
But nevertheless, Eldar are arrogant
Back on the topic, I thought for a longer while and I couldn't think of any race that I truly hate. I am however very negative towards any faction (even my favourite ones) after some fanboy praises it without end..
To be fair, most other races have a reason to be Arrogant. the IoM is the most powerful empire in the Galaxy, Orks are Orks, Necrons get to exterminate all life every 100 billion years, Nomnomnom, Tau have that annoying Greater Good.
the Eldar once had something to brag about, but then their entire race got mind-raped by a Chaos god of their own creation.
and yet, they STILL act like they are superior. They forsee a possable future and try to alter it, but it happens anyway(often BECAUSE they meddeled with it)
Tau. Tau tau tau. They have absolutely no idea what they're getting into, but fanboys still see them as the only hope for a doomed galaxy. I'm a huge fan of the IG, but I know that all they do is prevent the inevitable. Also, if I recall correctly, the Tau wrote of the size of the IoM as human error.
Pretty much all Space Marines (excluding Chaos), especially GK and SW. Their infallability gets pretty annoying and boring. It's almost coming to the point where all other factions exist soley to be beaten by them, it's rather bad.
For a Race that did the most to screw the Galaxy over, they sure are snooty and arrogant little .
That's not exactly fair. The Eldar who are the snootiest are those of the Craftworlds which didn't spiral into decadence along with their empire. The Dark Eldar were the ones who screwed everything up and then threw another crazy party afterwords.
For a Race that did the most to screw the Galaxy over, they sure are snooty and arrogant little .
That's not exactly fair. The Eldar who are the snootiest are those of the Craftworlds which didn't spiral into decadence along with their empire. The Dark Eldar were the ones who screwed everything up and then threw another crazy party afterwords.
Thats like saying that Slavery in the United States was all the greedy white land owner's fault. Everyone forgets the Muslim slave traders who actually supplied slaves and had been doing so for hundreds of years.
Jimsolo wrote:Chaos. Specifically, Chaos Marines. They have very little in the way of logic to justify their motivations or their methods of operation.
How about the Imperium betraying the Thousand Sons and driving them into the hands of Tzeentch?
The eldar that are alive today survived because they forsaw the death of their race. In that way they are kind of above those who destroyed it I guess (at least in my mind). They have seen their race be destroyed and as such might try to prevent others from doing so? Anyway...
I dislike space marines. The fluff aint too bad, but I dislike the whole "praise the emporer" rubbish. Let the old man die (preferably by being digested by a tyranid) and then we shall see what happens.
Jimsolo wrote:Chaos. Specifically, Chaos Marines. They have very little in the way of logic to justify their motivations or their methods of operation.
I'm certain that logic is not something that dictates the motivations of many people. In their eyes, they feel betrayed, and from their perspective, their reasoning was absolutely just. They felt the Emperor had abandoned them to ascend to Godhood. Well, look at him now, venerated by an empire of a million worlds. Their motivations are motivated by their emotions, which is hatred, logically they'd want to destroy that which they hate. I'm certain that a good portion have no motivations bar survival or carnage, which is as logical as the motivations of any race in the setting. They have perfect logic in the way they operate however.
Personally, it's the fething Necrons. Great concept, a race a undead space zombies reawakening from a million year slumber to harvest souls for their God like masters. What did they turn out to be? A Race with nearly no conceivable way of stopping them. At least the Tau, as annoyingly optimistic they are in my perfect world of grimdark, can be turned into Dark Eldar experiments or crushed easily by the Imperium, but the Necrons can't be fought realistically.
Ultrasmurfs as they either are not there when the fighting occurs or they lose. GK as Ward decided to make them the only chapter that never lost anyone to chaos when the BT were the only ones that I knew of that never lost anyone. Granted they may have in one of the offshoot chapters but not BT going on crusades. Then there is Chaos I mean come on give it up already your not even getting past Cadia there is no way you will make it to Terra. Just admit you were wrong and come back home so we can kill all these xenos and go back to rulling the galaxy...oh and leave the spikes alone for once sheesh.
Akroma06 wrote:Ultrasmurfs as they either are not there when the fighting occurs or they lose. GK as Ward decided to make them the only chapter that never lost anyone to chaos when the BT were the only ones that I knew of that never lost anyone. Granted they may have in one of the offshoot chapters but not BT going on crusades. Then there is Chaos I mean come on give it up already your not even getting past Cadia there is no way you will make it to Terra. Just admit you were wrong and come back home so we can kill all these xenos and go back to rulling the galaxy...oh and leave the spikes alone for once sheesh.
Akroma06 wrote:Ultrasmurfs as they either are not there when the fighting occurs or they lose. GK as Ward decided to make them the only chapter that never lost anyone to chaos when the BT were the only ones that I knew of that never lost anyone. Granted they may have in one of the offshoot chapters but not BT going on crusades. Then there is Chaos I mean come on give it up already your not even getting past Cadia there is no way you will make it to Terra. Just admit you were wrong and come back home so we can kill all these xenos and go back to rulling the galaxy...oh and leave the spikes alone for once sheesh.
Aren't opinions funny to read?
??? Didn't know I was being comical. Guess I'm glad I made you laugh?
Akroma06 wrote:Ultrasmurfs as they either are not there when the fighting occurs or they lose. GK as Ward decided to make them the only chapter that never lost anyone to chaos when the BT were the only ones that I knew of that never lost anyone. Granted they may have in one of the offshoot chapters but not BT going on crusades. Then there is Chaos I mean come on give it up already your not even getting past Cadia there is no way you will make it to Terra. Just admit you were wrong and come back home so we can kill all these xenos and go back to rulling the galaxy...oh and leave the spikes alone for once sheesh.
Aren't opinions funny to read?
??? Didn't know I was being comical. Guess I'm glad I made you laugh?
For some of it at least, wasn't too sure about the middle bit about the Grey Knights, sounded semi-serious.
Grey Templar wrote:To be fair, most other races have a reason to be Arrogant. the IoM is the most powerful empire in the Galaxy, Orks are Orks, Necrons get to exterminate all life every 100 billion years, Nomnomnom, Tau have that annoying Greater Good.
the Eldar once had something to brag about, but then their entire race got mind-raped by a Chaos god of their own creation.
and yet, they STILL act like they are superior. They forsee a possable future and try to alter it, but it happens anyway(often BECAUSE they meddeled with it)
You know.. Typical Eldar is faster, stronger, more intelligent, lives longer, has better connection with the warp, has access to superb technology, is culturally light years ahead and lives in much better conditions of typical human.. Among other things..
Eldar may be arrogant and stuck-up towards "lesser" (other) races. IoM is not only equally ignorant but also given the chance wipes them out completely. Not because they are a threat or did something wrong. They are not humans so they must be purged. Yeah, this is much better than being jackasses.....
And as others have pointed out: The Eldar who survived are descendants of those who opposed Slaanesh-creating lifestyle.
This is exactly like blaming loyalist chapters for something that traitor chapters are doing. Both are space marines, so it's 'their' fault.
It's ironic that people love to complain about the Astartes attitude towards the Emperor when they have the least dogmatic and most pragmatic view of him.
I hate that Grey Knights are considered so pious for the same kinds of actions that people consider borderline heretical from chapters like the flesh tearers.
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Brother Coa wrote:The Eldar...
There is no more arrogant, no more racist and no more idiotic race then them...
On the tabletop its the necrons, just because they just wont die. Fluff-wise I don't really have an issue with anyone, then again I'm not very well read. Meh.
Saim hann. They take the defiance and purity of the Eldar and defile it with their outrageous man hate. The Tau can be pissy, but their hearts are in the right places.
DiAF wrote:I dislike the DE. In the midst of all the grimdarkness of 40k they seem quite content and happy doing what they do. There's nothing tragic about them. They're like the rich kids in high school who complain that their life is so unfair, an that everyone is out to get them.
I like the models though, they look pretty cool
They'll all die in the end, their method of "immorality" gets weaker the older they get, and it can take an entire planets suffering for an older DE to get any kind of beneficial reaction from it. Eventually they simply require such levels of suffering so frequently it'll be impossible to achieve.
And once that happens it's time for some Slaanesh. Then they won't be so happy.
Akroma06 wrote:Ultrasmurfs as they either are not there when the fighting occurs or they lose. GK as Ward decided to make them the only chapter that never lost anyone to chaos when the BT were the only ones that I knew of that never lost anyone. Granted they may have in one of the offshoot chapters but not BT going on crusades. Then there is Chaos I mean come on give it up already your not even getting past Cadia there is no way you will make it to Terra. Just admit you were wrong and come back home so we can kill all these xenos and go back to rulling the galaxy...oh and leave the spikes alone for once sheesh.
Aren't opinions funny to read?
??? Didn't know I was being comical. Guess I'm glad I made you laugh?
For some of it at least, wasn't too sure about the middle bit about the Grey Knights, sounded semi-serious.
No I seriously cannot stand ultramarines those guys send me into a rage. Not because they are the poster boys or that they are blue/white, but rather they enforced the codex astartes after the heresy and pointed guns at anyone who didn't agree (in particular the Imp Fists). There actually used to be a thread on here about all the times a big battle happened and they weren't there or when they did fight they lost.
GK...well Ward wrote that so do I need more (internet stay back this isn't an invite for Ward hate...seriously)...in all seriousness there has been no proof that any true BT has ever fallen to chaos and infact it seems absurd that the super zealots that they are lost someone.
Chaos I guess I have less of an issue with but the marines with spikes gets old. Tzeentch always wins anyway. I mean you died and begin to rot so nurgle should win right, but so does tzeentch as that is a change from living to dead, decomp is also a change.
iproxtaco wrote:Personally, it's the fething Necrons. Great concept, a race a undead space zombies reawakening from a million year slumber to harvest souls for their God like masters. What did they turn out to be? A Race with nearly no conceivable way of stopping them. At least the Tau, as annoyingly optimistic they are in my perfect world of grimdark, can be turned into Dark Eldar experiments or crushed easily by the Imperium, but the Necrons can't be fought realistically.
Except that in almost every battle they are outnumbered, they're slow (But resilient), and the majority of them are mindless, making each solitary Necron Warrior overall less of a threat than a Space Marine. Necrons are hard to put down, and a terrifying foe on the battlefield. But they are not insurmountable. They are directly stated to not be so in the Necron codex actually. The only place Necrons really, truly dominate in 40k is in space, and even then Necron fleets have never appeared en masse.
Oddly enough, your complaints concerning the Necrons also can be said of Chaos, or the Tyranids actually (Who apparently would require the combined might of all the galaxy's races to defeat, lol).
Interesting.
Brother Coa wrote:The Eldar...
There is no more arrogant, no more racist and no more idiotic race then them...
Then the new Grey Knights...
The Eldar believe that if another race must die to preserve their own, then so be it.
The Imperium believes that if another race is not human, they are genetically inferior and unworthy of living.
I'm sorry, you can't say that the Eldar are more racist than the Imperium without trolling or being in denial.
And idiotic? The Horus Heresy wouldn't have even happened if Fulgrim just listened to Eldrad.
Which reminds me.
Eldrad: Waitwut you use Warp travel without knowing of Chaos?
Grey Templar wrote:To be fair, most other races have a reason to be Arrogant. the IoM is the most powerful empire in the Galaxy, Orks are Orks, Necrons get to exterminate all life every 100 billion years, Nomnomnom, Tau have that annoying Greater Good.
the Eldar once had something to brag about, but then their entire race got mind-raped by a Chaos god of their own creation.
and yet, they STILL act like they are superior. They forsee a possable future and try to alter it, but it happens anyway(often BECAUSE they meddeled with it)
You know.. Typical Eldar is faster, stronger, more intelligent, lives longer, has better connection with the warp, has access to superb technology, is culturally light years ahead and lives in much better conditions of typical human.. Among other things..
Eldar may be arrogant and stuck-up towards "lesser" (other) races. IoM is not only equally ignorant but also given the chance wipes them out completely. Not because they are a threat or did something wrong. They are not humans so they must be purged. Yeah, this is much better than being jackasses.....
And as others have pointed out: The Eldar who survived are descendants of those who opposed Slaanesh-creating lifestyle.
This is exactly like blaming loyalist chapters for something that traitor chapters are doing. Both are space marines, so it's 'their' fault.
So the eldar we see now are like Amish elder? (If you know who the Amish are)
The Ecclesiarchy bothers me quite a bit. They make so many stupid and rash decisions that tend to reflect what I don't like about a lot of actual churches. Through millenia of zealous praise of the emperor, they've forgotten his original teachings and revere him as a God, which he himself rejected the idea of. Mix that in with xenophobia and heretical scares, and you get people like Inquisitor Karamazov.
But I guess without that you take away a large portion of the Imperium's rich lore, so I guess I should quit complaining.
Having been out of the loop for 20 years or so I have probably got a warped perspective. There are two factions I deeply disllike, both for different reasons:
1. Tau: for me they just jar totally with the setting. I was amazed when I came across them and just thought "you don't belong here". My initial thought looking at them was that they were a bit of a gimmick, an attempt to make 40k a bit manga-like. I don't dislike the idea or the technology and so on but I do not think they fit in with the background at all.
2. Chaos daemons. Again it's an age thing. I think they have both cheapened daemons (not in the financial sense but in terms of their power, etc). For me lesser daemons ought to be equivalent to heroes and greater daemons amongst the most powerful of the figures in the game. Now I find lesser daemones are just infantry, no better than other warriors in effect. I would much rather see daemons as the elite core of a force of CM or renegade cultists. Entire armies of daemons just seems wrong, I think of them as rare and deadly visitors from the warp who would only form a small hard core of chaos forces not the whole strength. Also I hate the mixing of the chaos gods, the whole idea initially was that the gods were competitors and the opposing pairs of Khorne-Slaanesh and Nurgle-Tzeentch hated one another. They would never fight together and would rather kill one another. The impression you got was that if chaos did unite it would sweep the galaxy but its in-built hatred and competitiveness with itself meant it could not do so. I dislike that single god armies are now broadly unworkable and you need to mix to get a decent force. I would love a Nurgle force but I would want a mix of daemons, CM and renegade IG and cultists.
Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm sorry, you can't say that the Eldar are more racist than the Imperium without trolling or being in denial.
The difference is that Eldar are like that from the very beginning, and Humanity became like that after every alien race ( except Tau ) tried to eradicate them ( Age of Strife ). And I know Imperium are racist, I was talking about Humanity. And seeing how individuals act sometimes I would say that not all of Humanity is racist toward aliens. While all Eldar are.
And idiotic?:
Quite, just see DoW II campaign.
Idranel: We shall destroy that Human world of Meridian and then the Hive Fleet wll turn around and Ulthve will be spared.
Random Eldar: But why wouldn't we ally ourselves with Humans? It seems that they are planing on making weapon against Tyranids, a weapon that can be used...
Idranel: No, because that would be un-Eldar behavior. Besides, my vision showed me that we shall be victorious!!!
And we all know what happened in the end...
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Void__Dragon wrote:The Horus Heresy wouldn't have even happened if Fulgrim just listened to Eldrad.
Which reminds me.
Eldrad: Waitwut you use Warp travel without knowing of Chaos?
Fulgrim: What's Chaos?
Eldrad:
This was epic fail for Eldars. I mean, Eldrad saw that Horus was fallen but failed to see that Fulgrim has fallen to?
And when Fulgrim slaughter his warriors he tought that Imperium ahs done that?
Epic fail for a race that can see into the future...
Rockiroad278 wrote:The Ecclesiarchy bothers me quite a bit. They make so many stupid and rash decisions that tend to reflect what I don't like about a lot of actual churches. Through millenia of zealous praise of the emperor, they've forgotten his original teachings and revere him as a God, which he himself rejected the idea of. Mix that in with xenophobia and heretical scares, and you get people like Inquisitor Karamazov.
But I guess without that you take away a large portion of the Imperium's rich lore, so I guess I should quit complaining.
Well, to be fair, Karamazov isn't part of the Ecclesiarchy, and the Ecclesiarchy has some pretty good reasons for turning out like it did.
Brother Coa wrote:The difference is that Eldar are like that from the very beginning, and Humanity became like that after every alien race ( except Tau ) tried to eradicate them ( Age of Strife ). And I know Imperium are racist, I was talking about Humanity. And seeing how individuals act sometimes I would say that not all of Humanity is racist toward aliens. While all Eldar are.
Quite, just see DoW II campaign.
Idranel: We shall destroy that Human world of Meridian and then the Hive Fleet wll turn around and Ulthve will be spared.
Random Eldar: But why wouldn't we ally ourselves with Humans? It seems that they are planing on making weapon against Tyranids, a weapon that can be used...
Idranel: No, because that would be un-Eldar behavior. Besides, my vision showed me that we shall be victorious!!!
And we all know what happened in the end...
The Eldar weren't like that from the very beginning. The only beef the Craftworld Eldar have with humanity is humanity's rampant xenophobia and their tendency to take what isn't theirs. Eldrad jumped at the chance to reason with what he hoped were humans who weren't as ignorant and xenophobic as he had come to expect, and to warn them of their Warmaster's betrayal. The Age of Strife was primarily caused by the rise of psykers among humanity, and massive Warp Storms cutting humanity off. Most humans are racist towards aliens. Being xenophobic is part of their belief structure.
I give not a single gak about what Dawn of "MEHTAL BAWKSES" War has them doing, and I've actually heard multiple people complain about how uncharacteristically stupid the Eldar were in it.
Brother Coa wrote:This was epic fail for Eldars. I mean, Eldrad saw that Horus was fallen but failed to see that Fulgrim has fallen to?
And when Fulgrim slaughter his warriors he tought that Imperium ahs done that?
Epic fail for a race that can see into the future...
I know right? How dare Eldrad have the audacity to be not be omniscient!? Who does he think he is!?
The Chaos Gods were deliberately blocking and shrouding his foresight, he only got the bare gist of what he saw, he didn't even get Horus' name, or specifics. It is no fault of your own that your foresight can be blocked by the Chaos Gods.
And thing is, humanity is bad about handling the Warp in general, Eldrad suspected that, but Fulgrim confirmed that in his eyes. Eldrad tried to make peace with Fulgrim, but Fulgrim attacked him and slaughtered his warriors. Wow, what a jerk, how dare he be angry about his men being slaughtered.
Blood Angels. Everything in the codex was cool. Then they started dropping hints of Chaos infestation. Or did I misunderstand? Mephiston the blood stuff.
40kFSU wrote:Blood Angels. Everything in the codex was cool. Then they started dropping hints of Chaos infestation. Or did I misunderstand? Mephiston the blood stuff.
But that was the best part!
Mephiston being possessed by a Daemon, kekekekekekekeke.
I guess yall are right, it just gets old for me. I mean, really? Everyone is possessed, corrupted, or on the verge? Its hard enough to root for the IoM. Sheesh, I think Ill start painting Tau.
Jimsolo wrote:Chaos. Specifically, Chaos Marines. They have very little in the way of logic to justify their motivations or their methods of operation.
You're talking about the forces of Chaos, why on earth would logic have anything to do with that?
However, that said, there is some logic, especially for the non-cult legions. Many see themselves as the betrayed rather than the betrayers, they see it was their efforts, their blood and their sacrifice that built what turned out to be a lie while others reaped all the reward and they (percieve) that when no longer needed they were brutally betrayed, and the only purpose and point to their existence is revenge as they know nothing but war and battle.
Grey Templar wrote:
Thats like saying that Slavery in the United States was all the greedy white land owner's fault. Everyone forgets the Muslim slave traders who actually supplied slaves and had been doing so for hundreds of years.
Which is in turn is somewhat ridiculous. Yeah, that slave trade existed, it's not exactly forgotten over there, and still exists to some extent, but it doesn't mean that the plantation owners in the US weren't aware of what they were buying and what they were doing with such people and going out of their way to come up with every imagineable justification to continue that state of affairs long after importation was ceased.
The faction that used to annoy me the most was SM's in general. Still do to some extent. There's a lot of wankery going on with SM fluff that's taken them from the techy-looking psychoindoctrinated xenophobic super soldier warrior monk to the Knight in Shining Space Armor with UltraMarySue(tm) superpowers and more and more medieval looking armor & accessories.
However, even after that, the specific fluff for each successive marine release has become sillier, crossing the line from "badass" to "bad internet fanfiction/8 year old's comic stories". Space Wolves however I think take the cake. Between an incredibly abuseable army list where just about all the primary units of the army seem to be "like other marines...but BETTER! and CHEAPER!...and with MORE OPTIONS!" and awful naming conventions hammered to the point of nausea, and confused/contradictory fluff where they can't decide if they want to be Space Pranksters, Tough Guys with Hearts of Gold, GrimDark Vikings, Brooding Executioners, Space Berzerekers, or Drunken Bards, the faction is just...awful.
Having read only a limited amount of fluff, I was curious to know if anyone else gets frustrated with any particular 40k faction, and what makes them so annoying.
No specific in-universe factions... but definitely some of their real-world fans.
Nids and Necrons. Both are typically used as fodder, and since their threat is an integral part of their identity, they end up feeling hollow and unfinished. When a Tyranid invasion arrives at a planet, it should be the next freaking apocalypse, not practice for the Hydras. Necrons are treated with more dignity, but they still tend to get their bumper stickers handed to them.
At least the other antagonists all have more of a character, so when they lose I still enjoyed reading about them. Bugs and robots are supposedly two of the most powerful and fear-inducing factions, but the fiction never shows it.
Also, I wish Black Library authors wouldn't default to the Mechanicus all the time for traitors and weak links. "Oh look, another unstable machine priest. Guess how long it'll take before he gets someone killed!"
nomotog wrote:So the eldar we see now are like Amish elder? (If you know who the Amish are)
But seriously, actually you could say there are many similarities. Of course they are not the same, but some of the principles are there actually.
All my knowledge of Amish comes from movies and the internets so I may not have a proper view on them.
Brother Coa wrote:The difference is that Eldar are like that from the very beginning, and Humanity became like that after every alien race ( except Tau ) tried to eradicate them ( Age of Strife ). And I know Imperium are racist, I was talking about Humanity. And seeing how individuals act sometimes I would say that not all of Humanity is racist toward aliens. While all Eldar are.
Seriously? You are so biased that you make up such wrong statements? Still, no comment about being jerks vs exterminating other races. I seriously chuckle at how subjective this view is.
We kill them because we are better, we are OK. They think they are better and are arrogant, those idiots!
Brother Coa wrote:Quite, just see DoW II campaign.
Idranel: We shall destroy that Human world of Meridian and then the Hive Fleet wll turn around and Ulthve will be spared.
Random Eldar: But why wouldn't we ally ourselves with Humans? It seems that they are planing on making weapon against Tyranids, a weapon that can be used...
Idranel: No, because that would be un-Eldar behavior. Besides, my vision showed me that we shall be victorious!!!
And we all know what happened in the end...
Actually I didn't know how this ended. Never finished DoW2 and just played it a bit. But you are right. One wrong Eldar in a Space Marine oriented game. How shocking and not a plot armour at all!
Because you know, it would make a great game where they would ally themselves and you couldn't fight Eldar. Even better - alliance with Orks too. Yes, let's make a game where you have many alliances and not many enemies. Our enemies will be logical, smart and they will see their wrong-doings. Everybody will love this game.
Brother Coa wrote:This was epic fail for Eldars. I mean, Eldrad saw that Horus was fallen but failed to see that Fulgrim has fallen to?
And when Fulgrim slaughter his warriors he tought that Imperium ahs done that?
Epic fail for a race that can see into the future...
I see even Horus Heresy, is fail on Eldar part. Half of space marines turned to chaos. Primarchs forged and created to be rays of hope for humanity turning to chaos. Huge war, bloodshed, destruction, treachery.
One Eldar trying to warn the humans and not foreseeing everything. Not a single Primarch or even the great Emperor had any idea what is happening. Epic fail on Eldar part indeed.
Can't you see that it's YOU who pointed out two Eldar who tried to help or ally with humans and yet you still think they are much, much more racist towards IoM than the other way around. Some inconsistency with the part I bolded? Can you give me a quote of a Space Marine suggesting alliance with Eldar in DoW2? But yeah. Some Eldar thinking about alliance with humans - all Eldar are bad. Space Marines just killing any Eldar they came upon - IoM is good.
Even your signature is "racist" towards other races Can you be more biased?
Psienesis wrote:
Having read only a limited amount of fluff, I was curious to know if anyone else gets frustrated with any particular 40k faction, and what makes them so annoying.
No specific in-universe factions... but definitely some of their real-world fans.
Void__Dragon wrote:
They are sentient, to an extent.
But their nature, their very existence, is determined by mortals. That is why I don't think they have true free will, only the illusion of it.
No not at all ( sarcasm ).
They just instrumented the greatest civil war in the galaxy, turning a son against his father.
They probably instrumented Fall of the Eldar to ( aldo we have no info about that ).
Don't be fulled, they are truly sentient. Our emotions are only like a fuel to them, and my sentience is not dependable on a food or water I am eating.
Why are different emotions affecting different Chaos God, who knows? But I can assure you that they are very intelligent beings who use every trickery in the book to sway mortal souls to their side.
But your opinion is your opinion and I will respect that.
For a Race that did the most to screw the Galaxy over, they sure are snooty and arrogant little .
That's not exactly fair. The Eldar who are the snootiest are those of the Craftworlds which didn't spiral into decadence along with their empire. The Dark Eldar were the ones who screwed everything up and then threw another crazy party afterwords.
QFT.
My least favourite race has to be either SW or BA. I simply cannot stand all the s*** involved in these armies. SW are worse admittedly, but BA are just... grrrrrr.
Brother Coa wrote:The difference is that Eldar are like that from the very beginning, and Humanity became like that after every alien race ( except Tau ) tried to eradicate them ( Age of Strife ). And I know Imperium are racist, I was talking about Humanity. And seeing how individuals act sometimes I would say that not all of Humanity is racist toward aliens. While all Eldar are.
Seriously? You are so biased that you make up such wrong statements? Still, no comment about being jerks vs exterminating other races. I seriously chuckle at how subjective this view is.
We kill them because we are better, we are OK. They think they are better and are arrogant, those idiots!
Brother Coa wrote:Quite, just see DoW II campaign.
Idranel: We shall destroy that Human world of Meridian and then the Hive Fleet wll turn around and Ulthve will be spared.
Random Eldar: But why wouldn't we ally ourselves with Humans? It seems that they are planing on making weapon against Tyranids, a weapon that can be used...
Idranel: No, because that would be un-Eldar behavior. Besides, my vision showed me that we shall be victorious!!!
And we all know what happened in the end...
Actually I didn't know how this ended. Never finished DoW2 and just played it a bit. But you are right. One wrong Eldar in a Space Marine oriented game. How shocking and not a plot armour at all!
Because you know, it would make a great game where they would ally themselves and you couldn't fight Eldar. Even better - alliance with Orks too. Yes, let's make a game where you have many alliances and not many enemies. Our enemies will be logical, smart and they will see their wrong-doings. Everybody will love this game.
Brother Coa wrote:This was epic fail for Eldars. I mean, Eldrad saw that Horus was fallen but failed to see that Fulgrim has fallen to?
And when Fulgrim slaughter his warriors he tought that Imperium ahs done that?
Epic fail for a race that can see into the future...
I see even Horus Heresy, is fail on Eldar part. Half of space marines turned to chaos. Primarchs forged and created to be rays of hope for humanity turning to chaos. Huge war, bloodshed, destruction, treachery.
One Eldar trying to warn the humans and not foreseeing everything. Not a single Primarch or even the great Emperor had any idea what is happening. Epic fail on Eldar part indeed.
Can't you see that it's YOU who pointed out two Eldar who tried to help or ally with Humans and yet you still think they are much, much more racist towards IoM than the other way around. Some inconsistency with the part I bolded?
Seriously, to argue with an Eldar fan. Everything I will say you will just ignore...
But to conclude:
a) Eldar are racist, Humans are racist to. But Humans will join some factions, some individuals would probably fight to protect it ( Sturnn in Winter Assault ). When did you heard about the Eldar saving a Human world or a colony? Or putting it's life on a line to protect Humans or any other being? ( Kraken doesn't count even if they probably saved hundreds of Imperial and non-Imperial Worlds on a cost of their own Craftworld, they were just in a way of Hive Fleet and couldn't run away... ).
b) I never said Horus Heresy was Eldar fault, but it was their fail not being able to foresee the future ( like they know how to do that, mostly that "visions of the future" get's them all killed and turn on completely different ). They were able to see Horus falling, but they weren't able to see others? An instead they rushed to Terra they go to some backwater world and tried to spoke to a Fallen Primarch ( who carried a Daemon Sword - odd that they Eldar didn't sense Daemon in it ). And of course they tried to aid the Humans even if they hate them - because if Horus won entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. And I doubt that even their Craftworlds would protect them in that hell world.
c) Eldar are a dying race, they should retreat to the edges of the galaxy and try to repopulate, to save their race and their civilization. But no.... ( sarcasm ), we all must fight and die because we are to proud to lay down and do nothing ( again - sarcasm ). Every other race would try to survive, but they chose not to ( even if they have a chance ) and they chose to fight a losing battle to the vey last of their own race. I am sorry but every race that put's pride ahead of survival don't deserve to live at all, life is a precious things and they throw them away like that ( don't mentioned Imperials in this, they are not the ones who are on edge of extinction ).
Can you give me a quote of a Space Marine suggesting alliance with Eldar in DoW2? But yeah. Some Eldar thinking about alliance with humans - all Eldar are bad. Space Marines just killing any Eldar they came upon - IoM is good.
Cyrus said in DoW 2 ( you would know this if you finished the game ) after they killed Eldar leader and summoned Avatar:
"If only the Eldar had pointed their wrath toward Hive Fleet..." Meaning that they would be willing to join forces with them, Eldar even had objective - to save their long last Craftworld on Typhon Primaris. But no - Eldar must be arogant and proud prick that they are not to join with Humans but to fight against them as well. And I wondered why Imperials don't trust them...
Even your signature is "racist" towards other races Can you be more biased?
And what is exactly racist there? And even if it is it's none of your god business.
I quoted the Kan's sentence about the Tau because some people are implementing that Tau are so awesome they can take Heven and Hell without a casualties.
Brother Coa wrote:The difference is that Eldar are like that from the very beginning, and Humanity became like that after every alien race ( except Tau ) tried to eradicate them ( Age of Strife ). And I know Imperium are racist, I was talking about Humanity. And seeing how individuals act sometimes I would say that not all of Humanity is racist toward aliens. While all Eldar are.
Seriously? You are so biased that you make up such wrong statements? Still, no comment about being jerks vs exterminating other races. I seriously chuckle at how subjective this view is.
We kill them because we are better, we are OK. They think they are better and are arrogant, those idiots!
Brother Coa wrote:Quite, just see DoW II campaign.
Idranel: We shall destroy that Human world of Meridian and then the Hive Fleet wll turn around and Ulthve will be spared.
Random Eldar: But why wouldn't we ally ourselves with Humans? It seems that they are planing on making weapon against Tyranids, a weapon that can be used...
Idranel: No, because that would be un-Eldar behavior. Besides, my vision showed me that we shall be victorious!!!
And we all know what happened in the end...
Actually I didn't know how this ended. Never finished DoW2 and just played it a bit. But you are right. One wrong Eldar in a Space Marine oriented game. How shocking and not a plot armour at all!
Because you know, it would make a great game where they would ally themselves and you couldn't fight Eldar. Even better - alliance with Orks too. Yes, let's make a game where you have many alliances and not many enemies. Our enemies will be logical, smart and they will see their wrong-doings. Everybody will love this game.
Brother Coa wrote:This was epic fail for Eldars. I mean, Eldrad saw that Horus was fallen but failed to see that Fulgrim has fallen to?
And when Fulgrim slaughter his warriors he tought that Imperium ahs done that?
Epic fail for a race that can see into the future...
I see even Horus Heresy, is fail on Eldar part. Half of space marines turned to chaos. Primarchs forged and created to be rays of hope for humanity turning to chaos. Huge war, bloodshed, destruction, treachery.
One Eldar trying to warn the humans and not foreseeing everything. Not a single Primarch or even the great Emperor had any idea what is happening. Epic fail on Eldar part indeed.
Can't you see that it's YOU who pointed out two Eldar who tried to help or ally with Humans and yet you still think they are much, much more racist towards IoM than the other way around. Some inconsistency with the part I bolded?
Seriously, to argue with an Eldar fan. Everything I will say you will just ignore...
But to conclude:
a) Eldar are racist, Humans are racist to. But Humans will join some factions, some individuals would probably fight to protect it ( Sturnn in Winter Assault ). When did you heard about the Eldar saving a Human world or a colony? Or putting it's life on a line to protect Humans or any other being? ( Kraken doesn't count even if they probably saved hundreds of Imperial and non-Imperial Worlds on a cost of their own Craftworld, they were just in a way of Hive Fleet and couldn't run away... ).
b) I never said Horus Heresy was Eldar fault, but it was their fail not being able to foresee the future ( like they know how to do that, mostly that "visions of the future" get's them all killed and turn on completely different ). They were able to see Horus falling, but they weren't able to see others? An instead they rushed to Terra they go to some backwater world and tried to spoke to a Fallen Primarch ( who carried a Daemon Sword - odd that they Eldar didn't sense Daemon in it ). And of course they tried to aid the Humans even if they hate them - because if Horus won entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. And I doubt that even their Craftworlds would protect them in that hell world.
c) Eldar are a dying race, they should retreat to the edges of the galaxy and try to repopulate, to save their race and their civilization. But no.... ( sarcasm ), we all must fight and die because we are to proud to lay down and do nothing ( again - sarcasm ). Every other race would try to survive, but they chose not to ( even if they have a chance ) and they chose to fight a losing battle to the vey last of their own race. I am sorry but every race that put's pride ahead of survival don't deserve to live at all, life is a precious things and they throw them away like that ( don't mentioned Imperials in this, they are not the ones who are on edge of extinction ).
Can you give me a quote of a Space Marine suggesting alliance with Eldar in DoW2? But yeah. Some Eldar thinking about alliance with humans - all Eldar are bad. Space Marines just killing any Eldar they came upon - IoM is good.
Cyrus said in DoW 2 ( you would know this if you finished the game ) after they killed Eldar leader and summoned Avatar:
"If only the Eldar had pointed their wrath toward Hive Fleet..." Meaning that they would be willing to join forces with them, Eldar even had objective - to save their long last Craftworld on Typhon Primaris. But no - Eldar must be arogant and proud prick that they are not to join with Humans but to fight against them as well. And I wondered why Imperials don't trust them...
Even your signature is "racist" towards other races Can you be more biased?
And what is exactly racist there? And even if it is it's none of your god business.
I quoted the Kan's sentence about the Tau because some people are implementing that Tau are so awesome they can take Heven and Hell without a casualties.
You are basing all your arguments on a single videogame, DOW II. Don't you think that's a bit limited. Eldar are arrogant and cocky yes, but definately not as racist as the IoM. And you can't call me an Eldar fanboy because I play both.
Whilst Eldar are racist and trying to manipulate other races to ensure their survival, you don't exactly see them embarking on raging crusades (like the BT) to kill everything that isn't of their race. The IoM is all about being xenophobic and racist, I mean "purge the xenos"? Can't get much clearer than that. Eldar just say "we will use the lesser races to ensure that we survive for a bit longer".
And the Eldar are just arrogant because they're bitter about their fate. they hate to see how their noble ancestors (not the fall guys, way before that), once ruled the galaxy and that they have fallen so low that they cannot stop what they deem to be lesser races from taking the galaxy for themselves. Notably the IoM.
Lets not forget that the IoM and Eldar still sometimes join forces against a common enemy. No matter what DoWII may say.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
You are basing all your arguments on a single videogame, DOW II. Don't you think that's a bit limited. Eldar are arrogant and cocky yes, but definately not as racist as the IoM. And you can't call me an Eldar fanboy because I play both.
Whilst Eldar are racist and trying to manipulate other races to ensure their survival, you don't exactly see them embarking on raging crusades (like the BT) to kill everything that isn't of their race. The IoM is all about being xenophobic and racist, I mean "purge the xenos"? Can't get much clearer than that. Eldar just say "we will use the lesser races to ensure that we survive for a bit longer".
And the Eldar are just arrogant because they're bitter about their fate. they hate to see how their noble ancestors (not the fall guys, way before that), once ruled the galaxy and that they have fallen so low that they cannot stop what they deem to be lesser races from taking the galaxy for themselves. Notably the IoM.
Lets not forget that the IoM and Eldar still sometimes join forces against a common enemy. No matter what DoWII may say.
No, I am basing my argument on a Eldar race as a whole. But the truth is, even dough Eldar are racist - Human hate is much more bigger than theirs...
And in DoW II Humans were willing to join with the Eldar, but Eldar didn't bother and just attacked...
And you can't call my views limited because I am Eldar fan to. Even dough they are racist and arrogant to the end, I am amazed at their determination to fight even dough they are dying. And they are also battling against Chaos, and even sometimes join with Humans to beat them together. I am annoyed by their arrogance, and not just theirs - Imperial one to. But I love both factions.
@Brother Coa I am Eldar fan, so what? I also like IoM, but I'm not going to bluntly state something as wrong as "Eldar are more racist than IoM". IoM is known for purging and exterminating many alien races. That has been stated many times and is a common knowledge. Can you say the same about Eldar? Can you in fact say they've exterminated *one* race? But you still somehow try to say that Eldar are more racist just because they are gratuitously not helping others?
And ignore? I personally thought I was too nitpicky.. What exactly did I ignore..? It is you who is ignoring the fact that extermination is worse than just being high and mighty.
And your DoW2 example proved what? That neither race went to the other and said: "Hey! Let's stop fighting and battle Tyranid together." Is it Eldar fault? Yes. But you ignore the fact that it is also SM fault because they didn't do it either. All blame is put on the Eldar, but why? They acted exactly the same.
And for a person who quotes "Pain is temporary, honor is forever" you are bashing Eldar because they are too proud? You do have a "pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog" quote and say you don't like a race for thinking lowly of other races?
a) How about 13th crusade. And when did you hear about IoM saving any Eldar colony? Or any xeno colony in fact. Because you know, "purge the xeno scum" says quite clearly who is the biggest xenophobic race in 40k. b) Again, not even Primachs could sense those corruptions. Where Eldrad failed, IoM failed 100 times more. c) There is no safe edge of galaxy. There is no magical place in wh40k where you can just go and be happy forever. They have to fight because there is no other choice in this world. At least all their efforts are made to not be devoured by Slaanesh. One of the biggest IoM's policy is to exterminate xenos. Somehow still Eldar are the racist ones.
What you fail to understand that given the chance Eldar would not fight humans. They gain nothing from this fight. IoM on the other hand is so xenophobic that given the chance they would wipe out all the xenos.
Edit: Hmmm.. Somehow I missed your post.. Just to be precise, I am not trying to start a war here, or be a jackass. I think that IoM's policy towards other races should stay, it gives this world something interesting going on. It's just that somehow I think that the view of wh40k is taken only from human perspective. Whenever the chance I like to defend the 'underdogs' in this setting. I also hope that I didn't sound rude or like a jackass. I've been told I sound much more aggressive on the internet. That is not what I intend to do.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the ravens didnt ask for help because...erm...they're freaking Space Marines; they're "above" asking for xeno help, the eldar, while arrogant, are not...at least entirely
Void__Dragon wrote:
They are sentient, to an extent.
But their nature, their very existence, is determined by mortals. That is why I don't think they have true free will, only the illusion of it.
No not at all ( sarcasm ).
They just instrumented the greatest civil war in the galaxy, turning a son against his father.
They probably instrumented Fall of the Eldar to ( aldo we have no info about that ).
Don't be fulled, they are truly sentient. Our emotions are only like a fuel to them, and my sentience is not dependable on a food or water I am eating.
Why are different emotions affecting different Chaos God, who knows? But I can assure you that they are very intelligent beings who use every trickery in the book to sway mortal souls to their side.
But your opinion is your opinion and I will respect that.
Agree with MOST of what you said, but the Horus Heresy was not the greatest civil war in the galaxy.
The Fall was bigger.
The Men of Iron was bigger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Macok, Eldar are the underdogs? You ARE aware of the Tau, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Glowcat wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Definitly Eldar.
For a Race that did the most to screw the Galaxy over, they sure are snooty and arrogant little .
That's not exactly fair. The Eldar who are the snootiest are those of the Craftworlds which didn't spiral into decadence along with their empire. The Dark Eldar were the ones who screwed everything up and then threw another crazy party afterwords.
QFT.
My least favourite race has to be either SW or BA. I simply cannot stand all the s*** involved in these armies. SW are worse admittedly, but BA are just... grrrrrr.
*ahem*
FLYING LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS AND LONG FANG SPAM! hate the armies on the tt, but don't mind the fluff, really.
Bugs. There fluff is just plain stupid. Giant space bugs that came from another galaxy to eat us.. And te fluff that there is no way for the Galaxy to defeat them. laaaaame.
I take it you didn't like Independence day, or the various movies on the same theme that came before that
Similar shtick.
All you need is the biological equivilent of an Apple laptop and we're good
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, all the armies are undefeatable/going to take over the galaxy/ continuously expanding in this setting..
Except the Tau
And the Imperium. They are losing ground, losing their grasp on technology and losing the Emperor (it's hinted..not fact) but somehow still winnign almost every recorded battle? THAT's lame.
Then again, it's the IOM doing the recording..so likely a lot of stuff is on the cutting room floor
Macok wrote:There is no safe edge of galaxy. There is no magical place in wh40k where you can just go and be happy forever.
Halo Zone?
Halo Stars?
A group of dead stars outside of the Emperor's light that could be inhabited by deadly creatures, perfectly safe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
They are sentient, to an extent.
But their nature, their very existence, is determined by mortals. That is why I don't think they have true free will, only the illusion of it.
No not at all ( sarcasm ).
They just instrumented the greatest civil war in the galaxy, turning a son against his father.
They probably instrumented Fall of the Eldar to ( aldo we have no info about that ).
Don't be fulled, they are truly sentient. Our emotions are only like a fuel to them, and my sentience is not dependable on a food or water I am eating.
Why are different emotions affecting different Chaos God, who knows? But I can assure you that they are very intelligent beings who use every trickery in the book to sway mortal souls to their side.
But your opinion is your opinion and I will respect that.
Agree with MOST of what you said, but the Horus Heresy was not the greatest civil war in the galaxy.
The Fall was bigger.
The Men of Iron was bigger.
Hmm. The Fall wasn't a civil war but ok.
The Men of Iron has nearly no information regarding it. All we know is that it was a war between humanity and sapient machines that humanity won. In terms of how the galaxy was affected, the Heresy is by far the most important.
Macok wrote:There is no safe edge of galaxy. There is no magical place in wh40k where you can just go and be happy forever.
Halo Zone?
Halo Stars?
A group of dead stars outside of the Emperor's light that could be inhabited by deadly creatures, perfectly safe.
Dead Stars?
Halo Zone is zone of stars that are beyond light of Astronomicon. There is even saying that some alien civilizations already exist there..
Halo Stars are stars on the edge of the galaxy. I imagine that most of them are inhabited by feral Orks, some of them may be lost Human colonies. But I imagine that fairly great number of them is safe to some extend ( and Eldar have advanced tech, why should they be feared of local wild creatures ).
The only dead star I know in the galaxy are one in galactic center, the most new stars are formed in center and on the edge were the clusters of gas are located.
Brother Coa wrote:The difference is that Eldar are like that from the very beginning, and Humanity became like that after every alien race ( except Tau ) tried to eradicate them ( Age of Strife ). And I know Imperium are racist, I was talking about Humanity. And seeing how individuals act sometimes I would say that not all of Humanity is racist toward aliens. While all Eldar are.
Seriously? You are so biased that you make up such wrong statements? Still, no comment about being jerks vs exterminating other races. I seriously chuckle at how subjective this view is. We kill them because we are better, we are OK. They think they are better and are arrogant, those idiots!
Brother Coa wrote:Quite, just see DoW II campaign. Idranel: We shall destroy that Human world of Meridian and then the Hive Fleet wll turn around and Ulthve will be spared. Random Eldar: But why wouldn't we ally ourselves with Humans? It seems that they are planing on making weapon against Tyranids, a weapon that can be used... Idranel: No, because that would be un-Eldar behavior. Besides, my vision showed me that we shall be victorious!!!
And we all know what happened in the end...
Actually I didn't know how this ended. Never finished DoW2 and just played it a bit. But you are right. One wrong Eldar in a Space Marine oriented game. How shocking and not a plot armour at all! Because you know, it would make a great game where they would ally themselves and you couldn't fight Eldar. Even better - alliance with Orks too. Yes, let's make a game where you have many alliances and not many enemies. Our enemies will be logical, smart and they will see their wrong-doings. Everybody will love this game.
Brother Coa wrote:This was epic fail for Eldars. I mean, Eldrad saw that Horus was fallen but failed to see that Fulgrim has fallen to? And when Fulgrim slaughter his warriors he tought that Imperium ahs done that?
Epic fail for a race that can see into the future...
I see even Horus Heresy, is fail on Eldar part. Half of space marines turned to chaos. Primarchs forged and created to be rays of hope for humanity turning to chaos. Huge war, bloodshed, destruction, treachery. One Eldar trying to warn the humans and not foreseeing everything. Not a single Primarch or even the great Emperor had any idea what is happening. Epic fail on Eldar part indeed.
Can't you see that it's YOU who pointed out two Eldar who tried to help or ally with Humans and yet you still think they are much, much more racist towards IoM than the other way around. Some inconsistency with the part I bolded?
Seriously, to argue with an Eldar fan. Everything I will say you will just ignore...
But to conclude: a) Eldar are racist, Humans are racist to. But Humans will join some factions, some individuals would probably fight to protect it ( Sturnn in Winter Assault ). When did you heard about the Eldar saving a Human world or a colony? Or putting it's life on a line to protect Humans or any other being? ( Kraken doesn't count even if they probably saved hundreds of Imperial and non-Imperial Worlds on a cost of their own Craftworld, they were just in a way of Hive Fleet and couldn't run away... ). b) I never said Horus Heresy was Eldar fault, but it was their fail not being able to foresee the future ( like they know how to do that, mostly that "visions of the future" get's them all killed and turn on completely different ). They were able to see Horus falling, but they weren't able to see others? An instead they rushed to Terra they go to some backwater world and tried to spoke to a Fallen Primarch ( who carried a Daemon Sword - odd that they Eldar didn't sense Daemon in it ). And of course they tried to aid the Humans even if they hate them - because if Horus won entire galaxy would be one big Eye of Terror. And I doubt that even their Craftworlds would protect them in that hell world. c) Eldar are a dying race, they should retreat to the edges of the galaxy and try to repopulate, to save their race and their civilization. But no.... ( sarcasm ), we all must fight and die because we are to proud to lay down and do nothing ( again - sarcasm ). Every other race would try to survive, but they chose not to ( even if they have a chance ) and they chose to fight a losing battle to the vey last of their own race. I am sorry but every race that put's pride ahead of survival don't deserve to live at all, life is a precious things and they throw them away like that ( don't mentioned Imperials in this, they are not the ones who are on edge of extinction ).
Can you give me a quote of a Space Marine suggesting alliance with Eldar in DoW2? But yeah. Some Eldar thinking about alliance with humans - all Eldar are bad. Space Marines just killing any Eldar they came upon - IoM is good.
Cyrus said in DoW 2 ( you would know this if you finished the game ) after they killed Eldar leader and summoned Avatar: "If only the Eldar had pointed their wrath toward Hive Fleet..." Meaning that they would be willing to join forces with them, Eldar even had objective - to save their long last Craftworld on Typhon Primaris. But no - Eldar must be arogant and proud prick that they are not to join with Humans but to fight against them as well. And I wondered why Imperials don't trust them...
Even your signature is "racist" towards other races Can you be more biased?
And what is exactly racist there? And even if it is it's none of your god business. I quoted the Kan's sentence about the Tau because some people are implementing that Tau are so awesome they can take Heven and Hell without a casualties.[/quote]
Ah I remember the days when I used to kick tau butt with CSM without losing a casualty...
Bwolf999 wrote:Bugs. There fluff is just plain stupid. Giant space bugs that came from another galaxy to eat us.. And te fluff that there is no way for the Galaxy to defeat them. laaaaame.
The fluff isn't laaaaame its just WAAC for WAAC players.
Macok wrote:There is no safe edge of galaxy. There is no magical place in wh40k where you can just go and be happy forever.
Halo Zone?
Halo Stars?
A group of dead stars outside of the Emperor's light that could be inhabited by deadly creatures, perfectly safe.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
They are sentient, to an extent.
But their nature, their very existence, is determined by mortals. That is why I don't think they have true free will, only the illusion of it.
No not at all ( sarcasm ).
They just instrumented the greatest civil war in the galaxy, turning a son against his father.
They probably instrumented Fall of the Eldar to ( aldo we have no info about that ).
Don't be fulled, they are truly sentient. Our emotions are only like a fuel to them, and my sentience is not dependable on a food or water I am eating.
Why are different emotions affecting different Chaos God, who knows? But I can assure you that they are very intelligent beings who use every trickery in the book to sway mortal souls to their side.
But your opinion is your opinion and I will respect that.
Agree with MOST of what you said, but the Horus Heresy was not the greatest civil war in the galaxy.
The Fall was bigger.
The Men of Iron was bigger.
Hmm. The Fall wasn't a civil war but ok.
The Men of Iron has nearly no information regarding it. All we know is that it was a war between humanity and sapient machines that humanity won. In terms of how the galaxy was affected, the Heresy is by far the most important.
Okay, I admit that the fall wasn't a civil war AS SUCH, but it was still much bigger.
@ MoI: More lives were destroyed by the MoI uprising than during the HH. Imagine if every servitor in the galaxy went flying rodent gak crazy. Evil astartes aren't looking si bad now, are they?
Was it? I'm not entirely sure about that. It was one single event that killed off most of the Eldar, I'm not sure it was bigger or more important.
I'll say it again though, anything regarding the Men of Iron is speculation. It was a highly destructive war, yes, but numbers or its scale is not known.
iproxtaco wrote:Was it? I'm not entirely sure about that. It was one single event that killed off most of the Eldar, I'm not sure it was bigger or more important.
I'll say it again though, anything regarding the Men of Iron is speculation. It was a highly destructive war, yes, but numbers or its scale is not known.
it WAS more important, because it created a god. Without the power of this god added to the others, the HH COULDN'T have happened.
And numbers are also unknown for the HH, but the scale of the MOI was galactic. According to the note, they were used for each and every aspect of human life. They were the only military force commanded by humans other than the Pilots of ships and warmachines.
Brother Coa wrote:No not at all ( sarcasm ).
They just instrumented the greatest civil war in the galaxy, turning a son against his father.
They probably instrumented Fall of the Eldar to ( aldo we have no info about that ).
Don't be fulled, they are truly sentient. Our emotions are only like a fuel to them, and my sentience is not dependable on a food or water I am eating.
Why are different emotions affecting different Chaos God, who knows? But I can assure you that they are very intelligent beings who use every trickery in the book to sway mortal souls to their side.
But your opinion is your opinion and I will respect that.
The mortal races of the galaxy are so far below them that holding them morally responsible for killing them is like holding someone morally responsible for spraying disinfectent on a window. And frankly, the Emperor made it so pitifully easy for Chaos that it would almost be a crime for them not to of instigated the Horus Heresy. But beyond that, they didn't give much of a care about the galaxy before the Emperor threatened their power.
The Fall of the Eldar was the work of the Dark Eldar, no one else's.
Emotions created them, they are bound to them, shackled to them, defined by them. Nurgle and Tzeentch in particular are very far removed from mortal concepts of morality.
Brother Coa wrote:But the truth is, even dough Eldar are racist - Human hate is much more bigger than theirs...
Yet the Eldar are still more racist? Interesting...
iproxtaco wrote:Was it? I'm not entirely sure about that. It was one single event that killed off most of the Eldar, I'm not sure it was bigger or more important.
I'll say it again though, anything regarding the Men of Iron is speculation. It was a highly destructive war, yes, but numbers or its scale is not known.
it WAS more important, because it created a god. Without the power of this god added to the others, the HH COULDN'T have happened.
It created a God, massively important, not disputing that. The second part though is conjecture. The Great Crusade couldn't have happened, but the Horus Heresy happened hundreds of years later and was its own singular event.
And numbers are also unknown for the HH, but the scale of the MOI was galactic. According to the note, they were used for each and every aspect of human life. They were the only military force commanded by humans other than the Pilots of ships and warmachines.
We know a lot more about the Horus Heresy. It was a war between literally two halves of the Imperium encompassing the entire extent of the Emperor's realms, which covered most of the galaxy.
Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Chaos Marines.
Space Wolves for being mentally challenged Jacob marines when they should be the aggressive, proud and hardy marines.
Grey Knights for being Mary Sue marines who fight and never lose rather than the heroic marines who fight and against all odds and sometimes prevail. They should be the greatest heroes of the Imperium for their bravery, instead they're simply unbeatable and that makes for boring characters.
Chaos Marines for being presented as the bad guys. Why did you rebel? Because we're evil. Why are you covered in spikes? For extra evilness! What are your motives? DESTRUCTION AND BLOOD AND BURNING AND BEING EVIL! They're just cartoon villains with no depth, no sanity and no point.
Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
Brother Coa wrote:No not at all ( sarcasm ).
They just instrumented the greatest civil war in the galaxy, turning a son against his father.
They probably instrumented Fall of the Eldar to ( aldo we have no info about that ).
Don't be fulled, they are truly sentient. Our emotions are only like a fuel to them, and my sentience is not dependable on a food or water I am eating.
Why are different emotions affecting different Chaos God, who knows? But I can assure you that they are very intelligent beings who use every trickery in the book to sway mortal souls to their side.
But your opinion is your opinion and I will respect that.
The mortal races of the galaxy are so far below them that holding them morally responsible for killing them is like holding someone morally responsible for spraying disinfectent on a window. And frankly, the Emperor made it so pitifully easy for Chaos that it would almost be a crime for them not to of instigated the Horus Heresy. But beyond that, they didn't give much of a care about the galaxy before the Emperor threatened their power.
The Fall of the Eldar was the work of the Dark Eldar, no one else's.
Emotions created them, they are bound to them, shackled to them, defined by them. Nurgle and Tzeentch in particular are very far removed from mortal concepts of morality.
Brother Coa wrote:But the truth is, even dough Eldar are racist - Human hate is much more bigger than theirs...
Yet the Eldar are still more racist? Interesting...
Well the Emperor's plan for dealing with chaos was a good one, there was just no room for error. Instead of doing battle with them, which was guaranteed to cost trillions of lives, he attempted to starve them of faith and worship i.e. what they feed on to survive.
If Lorgar hadn't been a HUGE dick, the plan would have worked.
Rockiroad278 wrote:The Ecclesiarchy bothers me quite a bit. They make so many stupid and rash decisions that tend to reflect what I don't like about a lot of actual churches. Through millenia of zealous praise of the emperor, they've forgotten his original teachings and revere him as a God, which he himself rejected the idea of. Mix that in with xenophobia and heretical scares, and you get people like Inquisitor Karamazov.
But I guess without that you take away a large portion of the Imperium's rich lore, so I guess I should quit complaining.
Wouldn't the fact that sisters of battle get things like faith points (as do preachers et al) mean the emperor agrees with some of their decisions, You are right the emperor didn't like the idea of being called a god but he also knew humans are still simple minded (compared to his legion goodness) and when he fell into his pimp chair to chill out for a bit he realized that humanity needed something more then a corpse to lead them so he allows for ecclesiarchy to exist as they are truly the faithful.
Rockiroad278 wrote:The Ecclesiarchy bothers me quite a bit. They make so many stupid and rash decisions that tend to reflect what I don't like about a lot of actual churches. Through millenia of zealous praise of the emperor, they've forgotten his original teachings and revere him as a God, which he himself rejected the idea of. Mix that in with xenophobia and heretical scares, and you get people like Inquisitor Karamazov.
But I guess without that you take away a large portion of the Imperium's rich lore, so I guess I should quit complaining.
Wouldn't the fact that sisters of battle get things like faith points (as do preachers et al) mean the emperor agrees with some of their decisions, You are right the emperor didn't like the idea of being called a god but he also knew humans are still simple minded (compared to his legion goodness) and when he fell into his pimp chair to chill out for a bit he realized that humanity needed something more then a corpse to lead them so he allows for ecclesiarchy to exist as they are truly the faithful.
^ That.
Also, he was mortal during the GC, but he may actually be a deity now, since the prayers of humans feeds him in the warp.
Plus being able to make people into saints, and maybe being the cause of the perdus rift anomaly that allowed a not-quite-evil faction (Tau) to exist are pretty god-like things.
Dark Eldar. I hate them so much. They made Slaneesh and continue to act in all of their immoral ways as if nothing happened. They also all look like they came out of an S & M biker club. They have nice vehicles like the Razor Wing Fighter, but some of the models look too S & M. The sculpts are nice, but I just don't like the aesthetic look of the models.
Red Comet wrote:Dark Eldar. I hate them so much. They made Slaneesh and continue to act in all of their immoral ways as if nothing happened. They also all look like they came out of an S & M biker club. They have nice vehicles like the Razor Wing Fighter, but I just can't stand what they are and their models.
can't stand their models? First time I ever heard that about DE.
Also, they continue because if they stop indulging, Slaanesh eats their souls.
TrollPie wrote:Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
To be fair, that's just from the Ork point of view. From the point of view of the Imperium, Orks are terrifying.
im2randomghgh wrote:Well the Emperor's plan for dealing with chaos was a good one, there was just no room for error. Instead of doing battle with them, which was guaranteed to cost trillions of lives, he attempted to starve them of faith and worship i.e. what they feed on to survive.
If Lorgar hadn't been a HUGE dick, the plan would have worked.
His plan for dealing with Chaos wasn't too bad, but the way he treated his Primarchs, among others, made it easy for Chaos to turn them against him.
Red Comet wrote:Dark Eldar. I hate them so much. They made Slaneesh and continue to act in all of their immoral ways as if nothing happened. They also all look like they came out of an S & M biker club. They have nice vehicles like the Razor Wing Fighter, but I just can't stand what they are and their models.
can't stand their models? First time I ever heard that about DE.
Also, they continue because if they stop indulging, Slaanesh eats their souls.
What I meant to say was that I dislike the look of the army. Sculpts are really nice for the models and I'm glad the DE players got that update the army needed it badly.
TrollPie wrote:Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Chaos Marines.
Space Wolves for being mentally challenged Jacob marines when they should be the aggressive, proud and hardy marines.
Grey Knights for being Mary Sue marines who fight and never lose rather than the heroic marines who fight and against all odds and sometimes prevail. They should be the greatest heroes of the Imperium for their bravery, instead they're simply unbeatable and that makes for boring characters.
Chaos Marines for being presented as the bad guys. Why did you rebel? Because we're evil. Why are you covered in spikes? For extra evilness! What are your motives? DESTRUCTION AND BLOOD AND BURNING AND BEING EVIL! They're just cartoon villains with no depth, no sanity and no point.
Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
Lets pit them against another race who "apparantly" can't lose... nid's and what do we get=
TrollPie wrote:Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Chaos Marines.
Space Wolves for being mentally challenged Jacob marines when they should be the aggressive, proud and hardy marines.
Grey Knights for being Mary Sue marines who fight and never lose rather than the heroic marines who fight and against all odds and sometimes prevail. They should be the greatest heroes of the Imperium for their bravery, instead they're simply unbeatable and that makes for boring characters.
Chaos Marines for being presented as the bad guys. Why did you rebel? Because we're evil. Why are you covered in spikes? For extra evilness! What are your motives? DESTRUCTION AND BLOOD AND BURNING AND BEING EVIL! They're just cartoon villains with no depth, no sanity and no point.
Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
Lets pit them against another race who "apparantly" can't lose... nid's and what do we get=
A draw. They retreat to space and commence exterminatus.
Yeah but this is matt ward we are talking about, he will have already put something down saying that draigo got some cheese and killed them all with it.
#1 Ultramarines, this is classic, it's a chapter of mary sues! (I think thats what it is called at least...)
#2 5th edition Grey Knights, when they were Daemonhunters, i thought they were the coolest thing, now... I play these guys and I dislike their modern lore.
I dont like with them (as with the Ultramarines) they are just "better" then everyone else. I also am annoyed about what they do with the survivors
"oh hey, we saved this population from daemons... slaugher or slave labor time!!!"
It's like, hey Grey Knights, thanks for your offer to help us... please don't come!
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TrollPie wrote:Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Chaos Marines.
Space Wolves for being mentally challenged Jacob marines when they should be the aggressive, proud and hardy marines.
Grey Knights for being Mary Sue marines who fight and never lose rather than the heroic marines who fight and against all odds and sometimes prevail. They should be the greatest heroes of the Imperium for their bravery, instead they're simply unbeatable and that makes for boring characters.
Chaos Marines for being presented as the bad guys. Why did you rebel? Because we're evil. Why are you covered in spikes? For extra evilness! What are your motives? DESTRUCTION AND BLOOD AND BURNING AND BEING EVIL! They're just cartoon villains with no depth, no sanity and no point.
Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
Why not just make it easier and say you hate 40k =P
TrollPie wrote:Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
To be fair, that's just from the Ork point of view. From the point of view of the Imperium, Orks are terrifying.
im2randomghgh wrote:Well the Emperor's plan for dealing with chaos was a good one, there was just no room for error. Instead of doing battle with them, which was guaranteed to cost trillions of lives, he attempted to starve them of faith and worship i.e. what they feed on to survive.
If Lorgar hadn't been a HUGE dick, the plan would have worked.
His plan for dealing with Chaos wasn't too bad, but the way he treated his Primarchs, among others, made it easy for Chaos to turn them against him.
He didn't actually treat the Primarchs that badly, barring Angron, they just felt neglected like attention-starved bitches, because the Emperor was trying to make the webway accessible to humans, which would further suck for chaos, because humans would never travel through the warp. It would be obsolete.
TrollPie wrote:Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Chaos Marines.
Space Wolves for being mentally challenged Jacob marines when they should be the aggressive, proud and hardy marines.
Grey Knights for being Mary Sue marines who fight and never lose rather than the heroic marines who fight and against all odds and sometimes prevail. They should be the greatest heroes of the Imperium for their bravery, instead they're simply unbeatable and that makes for boring characters.
Chaos Marines for being presented as the bad guys. Why did you rebel? Because we're evil. Why are you covered in spikes? For extra evilness! What are your motives? DESTRUCTION AND BLOOD AND BURNING AND BEING EVIL! They're just cartoon villains with no depth, no sanity and no point.
Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
Why not just make it easier and say you hate 40k =P
2 of the smallest factions in the game, 1 slightly larger one and then Orks... that's not everything.
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Void__Dragon wrote:
TrollPie wrote:Oh, and I don't particularly like Orks. Tau's non-grimdarkness is what makes them grimdark: their intentions are galactic peace and unity yet they have no idea just how fethed up the universe is. But Orks non-grimdarkness is because they're the comedic relief.
To be fair, that's just from the Ork point of view. From the point of view of the Imperium, Orks are terrifying.
But from the player point of view, they're laughable.
All of IoM for the ultra depressing suicide its going through, and how it seems so totally plausible.
Ultramarines for being everywhere.
Horus. For the second most perfect being in IoM, he totally got played by a few joes and his own ego. Not to mention "theres to much paperwork" crybaby attitude. Oh and how when someone accuses your father of treason you kill half the galaxy and attack him. USE YOUR WORDS!!
But the rest I'm happy with. Arrogance is fine. Someone out there has to be.
The thing about orks is that people underestimate them
'You find us funny, mr Marquis, with our strange manners and convoluted circumlocutions, but never assume that because something is funny, it is not also dangerous..' Mr Croup (Neverwhere.. quoted approximately from memory, shortly before knocking out, torturing and killing the Marquis...)
Orks are funny, yes, but they are still an amazingly grim bunch. They are just enjoying their grimdark more than most It's like watching a tiger roll in a huge catnip patch, going into kittygasms, then notice you and bite your head off, so that it can enjoy the vibrations from you screaming as it crushes your skull ...
And yes, they are hilarious for the players too. Not laughable (implies useless..) but funny as hell
In terms of game stuff, Space Marines annoy me because of how much love is lavished upon them by GW. An entirely separate category is reserved for what GW did to Blood Angels. They went from a Codex Astartes chapter who fought against a curse (in 3rd edition) to....loyalist Khornates. Good job, guys. Also, deep striking Land Raiders makes blood shoot out my nose.
In terms of universe fluff once you remove GW incompetence, I actually don't mind Spaez Marens that much. The sole exception is the Soul Drinkers, which was nauseating Mary Sue drivel.
No I didn't... the man is pure win against Chaos...
I know that many are saying that he is actually being tortured by Chaos Gods, but:
Spoiler:
There is sentence that say in the codex that: "Even if Draigo can't kill Chaos Gods and their minions, so Chaos Gods CAN"T get him out of the Warp." And the point that he is regulary summoned by mistake, kills every living cultist he see and then RETURN TO THE WARP tells me that people are mistaken - a lot.
Ogiwan wrote:In terms of game stuff, Space Marines annoy me because of how much love is lavished upon them by GW. An entirely separate category is reserved for what GW did to Blood Angels. They went from a Codex Astartes chapter who fought against a curse (in 3rd edition) to....loyalist Khornates. Good job, guys. Also, deep striking Land Raiders makes blood shoot out my nose.
In terms of universe fluff once you remove GW incompetence, I actually don't mind Spaez Marens that much. The sole exception is the Soul Drinkers, which was nauseating Mary Sue drivel.
Soul Drinkers is pwnz.
And they are much less mary sue than certain grey astartes, and certain blue smurfs.
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Brother Coa wrote:
Ascalam wrote:To me he's like a cockroach.
Irritating, nauseating, no real threat and tiny, but you can't get rid of him, no matter what you try...
Ironsight wrote:Contrary to popular belief, "Mary Sue" does not mean "chapter/faction/individual that I don't like."
If you are going to hate on something, at least know the proper terminology.
It doesn't?
im2randomghgh wrote:He didn't actually treat the Primarchs that badly, barring Angron, they just felt neglected like attention-starved bitches, because the Emperor was trying to make the webway accessible to humans, which would further suck for chaos, because humans would never travel through the warp. It would be obsolete.
Hey, you want to know something he could of done that probably would have prevented the Heresy?
He could have told them what the feth he was doing, rather than demanding mindless obedience without justifying it.
No I didn't... the man is pure win against Chaos...
I know that many are saying that he is actually being tortured by Chaos Gods, but:
Spoiler:
There is sentence that say in the codex that: "Even if Draigo can't kill Chaos Gods and their minions, so Chaos Gods CAN"T get him out of the Warp." And the point that he is regularly summoned by mistake, kills every living cultist he see and then RETURN TO THE WARP tells me that people are mistaken - a lot.
You could actually quote it instead of using the usual misinterpreted internet hyperbole. Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.
There are a lot of factions in 40k that annoy me. I know the whole grimdark is the 40k thing, I'm fine with that. But it takes zero creativity to just have one race after the other try to out-evil, out-corrupt, out-arrogant, out-domgatically fail their own faction.
That's why I've hated Dark Eldar fluff from the get-go. Horribly torture people to survive... mkay sure. Sounds like unless your rich or powerful, life in Cammoragh would be short and painful... as a dark eldar. They sound doomed to me. Chaos is silly, "gee, which ones are the bad guys, the ones eating infants and adorning themselves with their skulls maybe??" Again I'm cool with evil and darkness themes, but try being a little more subtle? Who would be tempted by an existence of constant fear of being slaughtered by your own superiors (or ambitious subordinates!), living in the horrors of the warp, so you can just maybe become some meat puppet for a daemon? Are there any chicks? Money? Prestige? What are the promotion opportunites? Hmm, I'll pass. I think Chaos HR department needs to be revamped. Are they really recruiting / corrupting at a rate faster than they are being slain?
Some of my favorite models are Chaos and Dark Eldar (I'd LOVE to put together a "slaver" raiding force of mobile DE), but the fluff is ridiculous. I don't have a problem with evil factions, my problem is that even in "grimdark, suspend my disbelief to the max" mode they are completely untenable factions.
Then on the opposite side of the spectrum Tau feel pretty out of place with just how altruistic they strive to be, but they annoy me to a lesser extent. It would be easy for a good faction (try any half-intelligent faction that wants to SURVIVE) to look at the Imperium (the most viable defense against the evils of the galaxy) and laugh at their being crushed under the weight of their own bureaucracy and dogma and offer a "better way".
iproxtaco wrote: You could actually quote it instead of using the usual misinterpreted internet hyperbole. Maybe you could explain the key theme behind the character? On second thoughts, you can't, as you missed it completely. Not to worry, its Mat Ward's writing style and incopetancy that makes it hard to discern. Contrary to poular beleif, Dragio is not an unstoppable Grey Knight that not even the Chaos Gods can kill. He's a lone soldier trapped in the very realm he swore to defend against. Everything he does in the Warp is meaningless, for all is reverted to normal once he moves on. The Cities he destroys are all re-built, the Daemons he kills are re-born, he is a pawn of the Dark Gods who enjoy watching his hopeless endevours. More importantly, Draigo has become what he despises. A creature forever tied to the Warp, only returning to material realm rarely and only for a short time, like a Daemon. His existence is tragic and ironic, but as with many things in Mat Ward's books, this is written over by the usual over the topness, so the key themes are missed.
I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players
King Pariah wrote:I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players
You realize that as a csm player you're still playing a space marine army, albeit an outdated one covered in spikes? My area actually is lucky enough to have a ton of Tau and Necron players.
Space Wolves seem a little grasping for fantasy bucks in my eyes. I won't hate on anyone for using them but I couldn't do it myself. Then again, I love the idea for the Grey Knights and am beginning a collection of them. Ultra secretive possibly zealots intent on cleansing the world, love it!
fleetofclaw wrote:There are a lot of factions in 40k that annoy me. I know the whole grimdark is the 40k thing, I'm fine with that. But it takes zero creativity to just have one race after the other try to out-evil, out-corrupt, out-arrogant, out-domgatically fail their own faction.
That's why I've hated Dark Eldar fluff from the get-go. Horribly torture people to survive... mkay sure. Sounds like unless your rich or powerful, life in Cammoragh would be short and painful... as a dark eldar. They sound doomed to me.
One of the things I love about the Dark Eldar codex is that it explains a lot about Comorraugh's workings.
There's actually quite a few unsuccessful Dark Eldar in the Dark City. Some of them form Hellion gangs and perform random acts of violence to quench their thirst. The not-as-resourceful ones become the Parched, Dark Eldar who wander the Sprawls desperately looking for people in pain. They'll often follow the raids of Hellions or Scourges, feeding on the pain inflicted and occasionally dragging off wounded combatants.
To allow society to keep functioning among the wealthier, but still not rich Dark Eldar, there's the gladiatorial Wytch fights and constant raids; there's a reason Dark Eldar kidnap more than they kill. Some of the lower class Dark Eldar make bargains or are invited into hunts, allowing the pain to spread even further through society.
The codex even explains how the Dark Eldar can keep a stable population when they delight in killing so much; Haemonculi will regrow Dark Eldar clients from pieces as small as a hand, and also use a fast cloning process to bolster their numbers.
King Pariah wrote:I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players
You realize that as a csm player you're still playing a space marine army, albeit an outdated one covered in spikes? My area actually is lucky enough to have a ton of Tau and Necron players.
Chaos Space Marines used to be a lot different from normal Marines. Veteran Skills, no Raptors, Marks of Chaos, lots of summoned Daemon and Mutation options, more melee oriented and generally heavier. Some of those differences are still around, albeit less pronounced, and others are just gone. The most recent Codex is pretty much "Spiky Marines" but they actually used to be a lot difference.
Ultramarines and Grey Knights. Both seem to have all the answers and none of the wisdom to question them.
GKs ´justification´for doing what they do is downright painfull. lets kill off all witnesses just to be sure noone can tell on us. Like any imperial citizen would even know what to make of their outfits anyway.... That, and people who have a hard on for the emperor in general.
Othere: "THE THOUSAND SONS ARE WITCHES AND PRACTICERS OF SORCERY!"
Magnus: "So are you!"
Othere: "I'm not a Psyker, I'm a Son of the Storm!"
Magnus: "...In other words a Psyker."
Othere: "SEE? WITCHCRAFT! HE USED FACETIOUSNESS!"
URGH.
Well, to be fair he (Othere) MIGHT be right. The Shamans of Old Earth who pooled their power to create the Emperor were actually able to use non-warp magic, sorta like ork shamans who use Waaagh! power, only using an unidentified power source.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oakenshield wrote:
King Pariah wrote:I initially was fine with Space Marines but nowadays I sometimes wish people would just shut up about them, and that I could go to the local gaming store and not see Space Marine army after Space Marine after with a couple ork and deldar army... I'm pretty much convinced that locally I'm the only CSM and Cron player and my bro is one of a few Tau players
You realize that as a csm player you're still playing a space marine army, albeit an outdated one covered in spikes? My area actually is lucky enough to have a ton of Tau and Necron players.
Harriticus wrote:Space Marines. Not because of anything they've done but because of how overexposed they are by GW.
Also Eldar. For a dying race that destroyed itself you'd think they'd show a little more humility.
THIS! I don't play marines simply because they are so overexposed. You say warhammer 40k and non-players instantly thing marines because that's all they know. To an extent, I also don't like the GKs because, whatever you may say, they are just marines with shinier armor and cooler toys. But the one that annoyes me the most is the Adaptus Gamesworkshoppe, always changing the rules that my beloved guard fight by. The nerve they have of telling my rough riders that they must carry a lance into battle!
im2randomghgh wrote:
Well, to be fair he (Othere) MIGHT be right. The Shamans of Old Earth who pooled their power to create the Emperor were actually able to use non-warp magic, sorta like ork shamans who use Waaagh! power, only using an unidentified power source.
Orks shamans still use the Warp, remember, Gork and Mork are Warp Gods just like Khorne or Nurgle. Likewise, the SW Runepriests were described as mentally swimming the same currents of the Warp as the Thousand Sons, etc.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Well, to be fair he (Othere) MIGHT be right. The Shamans of Old Earth who pooled their power to create the Emperor were actually able to use non-warp magic, sorta like ork shamans who use Waaagh! power, only using an unidentified power source.
Orks shamans still use the Warp, remember, Gork and Mork are Warp Gods just like Khorne or Nurgle. Likewise, the SW Runepriests were described as mentally swimming the same currents of the Warp as the Thousand Sons, etc.
...With a massive hard on for killing their own kind and generally hating anything thats different from them.
Besides that their game-mechanics have the same reasoning as the dwarves: this guy is a grumpy old man with a massive beard. Hes really angry so he has to be amazing in combat! just look how old and angry he is! and he drinks all the time! that makes him even more awesome! lets give him wild abilities to reflect that
I don't see why people think the Craftworld Eldar should be humble.
They had infinite power, they got to the stage where they never had to work because of the state of perfection they got their society too. They could snuff out stars on a whim. Not only did they manage to achieve all that, but they also had the skill to see through time and forsee the fall. After all that they managed to build space ships the size of planets and were able to evacuate all the members of their galaxy spanning race that had the strength to turn away from the decadance that they'd experienced for thousands of years. They still have to continually repress their every emotion and have done for 10,000 years to ensure their race lives on, whilst constantly in fear of being consumed by a god that constantly hunts their souls.
The Craftworlders have a right to be arrogant they didnt cause the fall, they were the only ones clever enough to notice something was wrong and walk away.
Gorechild wrote:I don't see why people think the Craftworld Eldar should be humble.
They had infinite power, they got to the stage where they never had to work because of the state of perfection they got their society too. They could snuff out stars on a whim.
Not only did they manage to achieve all that, but they also had the skill to see through time and forsee the fall. After all that they managed to build space ships the size of planets and were able to evacuate all the members of their galaxy spanning race that had the strength to turn away from the decadance that they'd experienced for thousands of years. They still have to continually repress their every emotion and have done for 10,000 years to ensure their race lives on, whilst constantly in fear of being consumed by a god that constantly hunts their souls.
The Craftworlders have a right to be arrogant they didnt cause the fall, they were the only ones clever enough to notice something was wrong and walk away.
by this logic the dark eldar are like jersey shore. its horrid, but they never noticed it themselves.
They may have noticed it, but very few of them would admit what they do is wrong, or that they do it for any reason other than because it's what they want to do. They see it as their right to be able to do whatever the hell they want, so they do. Never admiting that they are driven to commit the atrocities that they do by Slaanesh as she slowly but constantly consumes their souls.
They are the other extreme of the Eldar Empire, the craftworlders saw something was wrong and tried to escape. The Dark Eldar were so engrosed in the cults of pleasure that they'd retreat into the webway, where their perverse partying couldn't be detected, this alowed them to move even further into depravity. They just had the dumb luck to be somewhere where Slaanesh couldn't get them at the moment when she consumed the rest of their empire.
Im with you on the ad mech, but my other huge annoyance is the sisters of battle, fluff wise they never even listen to tactics they just charge forward purging the unclean.
I'm also not a fan of space-wolves. At least rules wise, they have a lot of things that are better just to be different (runic weapons & wolf claws are the main one, and being against psykers while having their own).
Gorechild wrote:I don't see why people think the Craftworld Eldar should be humble.
They had infinite power, they got to the stage where they never had to work because of the state of perfection they got their society too. They could snuff out stars on a whim.
Not only did they manage to achieve all that, but they also had the skill to see through time and forsee the fall. After all that they managed to build space ships the size of planets and were able to evacuate all the members of their galaxy spanning race that had the strength to turn away from the decadance that they'd experienced for thousands of years. They still have to continually repress their every emotion and have done for 10,000 years to ensure their race lives on, whilst constantly in fear of being consumed by a god that constantly hunts their souls.
The Craftworlders have a right to be arrogant they didnt cause the fall, they were the only ones clever enough to notice something was wrong and walk away.
The humans have also had supreme power in the galaxy, twice, and the orks are always strong...Necrons are also face-smash tastic, and the Enslavers are pretty beast.
Having been on top at one point or another isn't all that unique in 40k/
There's an element of "don't look at it too closely," between the mixed skill of the setting's contributors and architects and years of retcons, but I don't feel there are many broad-stroke or big-picture missteps.
The one place I feel GW really fethed up was with Necrons. The faction feels shoe-horned in and it treads on familiar ground. Tyranids were doing just fine as the completely alien universal threat of 40K; the setting didn't really need a second group doing that shtick. Even their command structure's too similar to the tyranids for my tastes -- mindless drones working for ancient gods isn't that different from mindless drones working for the hive mind. Personally, I'd have given them a different goal (or just left it a mystery altogether!) and handed them a few more units that weren't gunsteel gray.
I don't have a problem with the actual army or how it's supposed to play on the tabletop, I just don't like how it's placed in the universe.
And it's got almost nothing to do with anything specific in their fluff. I hate them as an 'idea'.
They're pure Anime-inspired silliness. Mecha, AI Drones, and every model is armed with a plasma-based energy weapon, bah!
40k is a GrimDark setting and universe. The Tau were added into it as a 'breath of fresh air', new and dynamic and unwilling to allow the weight of the galaxy press down upon them. They are woefully out of place and they will never fail to turn my stomach.
Mewens wrote:The one place I feel GW really fethed up was with Necrons. The faction feels shoe-horned in and it treads on familiar ground. Tyranids were doing just fine as the completely alien universal threat of 40K; the setting didn't really need a second group doing that shtick. Even their command structure's too similar to the tyranids for my tastes -- mindless drones working for ancient gods isn't that different from mindless drones working for the hive mind. Personally, I'd have given them a different goal (or just left it a mystery altogether!) and handed them a few more units that weren't gunsteel gray.
I don't have a problem with the actual army or how it's supposed to play on the tabletop, I just don't like how it's placed in the universe.
Rumour has it this is being fixed in the new Necron codex. It's going to focus on Necron lords, which will have their own personality now, and their objectives, rather than the all encompassing 'kill all life' of the previous fluff. That will probably still be there, but they're emphasising individuality between the lords, so they should take a step back from doing what Tyranids do.
Mewens wrote:The one place I feel GW really fethed up was with Necrons. The faction feels shoe-horned in and it treads on familiar ground. Tyranids were doing just fine as the completely alien universal threat of 40K; the setting didn't really need a second group doing that shtick. Even their command structure's too similar to the tyranids for my tastes -- mindless drones working for ancient gods isn't that different from mindless drones working for the hive mind. Personally, I'd have given them a different goal (or just left it a mystery altogether!) and handed them a few more units that weren't gunsteel gray.
The similarities with the Tyranids are outweighed by the differences.
Particularly that the Necrons are not mindless (The upper echelons anyway), and never were. The problem was that the codex didn't emphasize that nearly enough.
@-Loki- -- That's good to hear. Something as simple as "here's 4 necron lords; they want to kill the organics, but this one also want a delicious waffle cone, this one wants ..., etc." would be enough.
@Void__Dragon: Oh, I know there's differences. It's just that the two armies filled the same niche in the fluff -- as a totally alien force that posed an existential threat to all of the 40k universe. The other "evil" races, including Chaos, aren't totally alien. Similarly, only the tyranids and necrons are painted as this sort of inexorable enemy that can't be truly defeated or contained or avoided. Both are death-dealers that completely raze anything they touch.
What was clever about the implementation of the tyranids is that the designers co-opted already-established 40K threats, making the tyranids feel like an organic part of the universe (pun unintended); in contrast, the necrons just showed up one day. Similarly, by putting them in the same niche and giving them a similar command structure -- mindless drones controlled by intelligent commanders that are subservient to some ancient power -- it's hard not to draw comparisons. I get the feeling that the creators' discussions about necrons centered on differentiating them from tyranids, and they chose to make them the exact opposite in a lot of ways, while leaving their basic role in the universe identical. In the end, they ended up just looking like tyranids in different clothes. I thought it was clumsy implementation, and that's what irks me about them.
If what -Loki- said turns out to be true, highlighting the necron lords' ambitions while putting their overarching goal of "kill all organics" on the backburner could really distinguish the two armies thematically.
Quick edit: Which is basically what you said, Void, just in 3123x the words. I just wanted to explain why they bugged me a little more in-depth.
Mewens wrote:@-Loki- -- That's good to hear. Something as simple as "here's 4 necron lords; they want to kill the organics, but this one also want a delicious waffle cone, this one wants ..., etc." would be enough.
They aren't "fixing" the Necrons by any stretch of the word; they're retconning them, apparently.
@Void__Dragon: Oh, I know there's differences. It's just that the two armies filled the same niche in the fluff -- as a totally alien force that posed an existential threat to all of the 40k universe. The other "evil" races, including Chaos, aren't totally alien. Similarly, only the tyranids and necrons are painted as this sort of inexorable enemy that can't be truly defeated or contained or avoided. Both are death-dealers that completely raze anything they touch.
You are very, very mistaken if you are under the impression Chaos isn't presented as totally alien, or an enemy that can't be defeated, contained, or avoided in the long run.
What was clever about the implementation of the tyranids is that the designers co-opted already-established 40K threats, making the tyranids feel like an organic part of the universe (pun unintended); in contrast, the necrons just showed up one day. Similarly, by putting them in the same niche and giving them a similar command structure -- mindless drones controlled by intelligent commanders that are subservient to some ancient power -- it's hard not to draw comparisons. I get the feeling that the creators' discussions about necrons centered on differentiating them from tyranids, and they chose to make them the exact opposite in a lot of ways, while leaving their basic role in the universe identical. In the end, they ended up just looking like tyranids in different clothes. I thought it was clumsy implementation, and that's what irks me about them.
The underlying difference is motivation. Tyranids are motivated by simple hunger. Necrons are not, there is malice behind their actions, an ancient malice that led to them sacrificing their souls for the power to act upon that malice. This is very different from the Tyranids. Another theme of the Necrons is their cold, silent nature, some have said that 40k is Law vs. Chaos. Tyranids are on the side of Chaos. Necrons are squarely on the side of law, Tyranids are perhaps the ultimate expression of change, whereas if the Necrons win, nothing ever changes, ever.
Beyond that, their gods are different. Both wish to feed yes, but like with their "servants" (Technically the Tyranids are not subservient to the Hive Mind, they are part of it, I know), they differ, in that the Hive Mind just wants its noms. The C'tan desire to make the galaxy an eternal fast-food restaurant, where they can feed off of the suffering of mortal races for all time. Not even the Chaos Gods are this horrible.
The Tyranids and the Necrons share some similarities, yes, but they are opposites in many other respects, as you acknowledged. Are they the forboding, inevitable doom of the galaxy? Yes, both are. As is Chaos. The three share that theme, in the end, one of these factions will win.
If what -Loki- said turns out to be true, highlighting the necron lords' ambitions while putting their overarching goal of "kill all organics" on the backburner could really distinguish the two armies thematically.
Quick edit: Which is basically what you said, Void, just in 3123x the words. I just wanted to explain why they bugged me a little more in-depth.
Well, there goal was never simply "kill all organics," but I disagree personally. The Necron Lords shouldn't be humanised. Intelligent, and possibly varying in their methods? Sure. But still singular in purpose, it is that singularness of purpose that made the Necrons what they were.
Void__Dragon wrote:Tyranids are on the side of Chaos. Necrons are squarely on the side of law, Tyranids are perhaps the ultimate expression of change, whereas if the Necrons win, nothing ever changes, ever.
Remember, there's a huge difference when you capitalize Chaos in 40k. Tyranids may be chaos, they're definitely not Chaos.
That's an interesting take. I've always imagined on the spectrum of evil Chaos being on one end and tyranids on the other. Here's my reasoning:
Chaos is a twisted reflection of sentience. Each of the four powers takes some aspect of the human/eldar/what-have-you condition and magnifies it to a grotesque extreme. There is a glimmer of recognition of the self in Chaos, which is part of its allure (for in-game characters, that is). I'm not a lore guru, but I was under the impression that demons had a parasitic relationship with sentient creatures, and in fact required them to continue to survive. (Plaguebearers growing from the souls of those killed in Nurgle's plagues, for example.) In that sense, no matter how ascendant Chaos is, humanity always has hope against it -- Chaos can't wipe humanity out without crippling itself. Whether that hope is reasonable or not doesn't really matter; it exists, and can animate conflict against Chaos.
The tyranids, on the other hand, visit a planet and scour it clean. If they beat you on a given world, that world's gone. They're the ultimate salt-sowing conquerers; they literally leave no trace of life behind. There's no hope if the tyranids win -- they will literally devour every speck of culture, civilization and life, leaving nothing to recoup. There's nothing in the tyranid hive mind that beckons to humanity -- even genestealer cults use mind control and charisma, not primal desire, to ensnare victims. Chaos is alien in the sense that it defies logic on an inexpressible scale; the tyranids are alien in that they have nothing in common with the human psyche.
On a micro level, the result is the same; a world fallen to Chaos is just as gone as a world fallen to tyranids. But across the whole of the galaxy, a conquering tyranid force is the end of all things; a conquering Chaos force isn't.
On that scale, the necrons fill the exact same niche as the tyranids, but without any of the clever retcons that made their introduction feel so organic. A necron victory would be without even hollow hope. Necrons are alien and inimical to humanity in the way tyranids are. It's by that metric that I found them to be unsatisfying, forced and unnecessary.
I would have to say in first place would be Tau (basically just a stupid concept), Smurfs (due to the "we're the only speess mahrines" attitude!), Necrons (terminator wannabes) and dark eldar (with their fantastic array of power weapons, invul saves and pmt suffering leaders!).
Sometimes in all fairness you can get a little sodded off from the amount of space puppies bashing that goes on here!
Said before that I don't like marines and by extension... Dark Angles, Blood Angles, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, etc etc etc. This included the Grey Knights because they are, essentially, marines. After reading the GK codex a little more, I hate them just a little more. One bit did it, the piece on the aftermath of Armaggedon. I can see it going down. The GK Phil is at Bar Armageddon with Guardsman Bob..
Phil: Man Bob, this was one crazy war, huh?
Bob: You said it Phil, but we won. You and your knights, man it was amazing watching you in battle. You guys really did save our butts though, I don't know how to ever thank you for saving my world.
Phil: It was nothing Bob, nothing, don't think about it. I was actually impressed with you and the rest of the guard. You guys are braver then we ever gave you credit. There's only one lose end though..
Bob: What's that Phil? You're going to buy the next round!?
Phil: No. See, the problem is that I have to kill you now..
Bob: What!? Why!?
Phil: Well, it's like this. The GK, we're supposed to be mythical and all this stuff. People are supposed to think we're just phantoms, something like that, I didn't pay attention to the Librarian. Honestly, I prefer my librarians young, hot and blond.. and ofcourse female. This one though, he was old, crusty, evil, and definitally not female.
Bob: I hear that!
Phil: Anyway... *Phil kills Bob, looks around, see a bunch of people seen him and kills them too and then notices one guy slipped into the street and so he follows, seeing hundreds of people Phil sighs and kills them too*
Wulfen Andy wrote:I would have to say in first place would be Tau (basically just a stupid concept), Smurfs (due to the "we're the only speess mahrines" attitude!), Necrons (terminator wannabes) and dark eldar (with their fantastic array of power weapons, invul saves and pmt suffering leaders!).
Sometimes in all fairness you can get a little sodded off from the amount of space puppies bashing that goes on here!
Don't you mean Twilight Fangirl wish fulfillment army part 2? Go I hate them, don't you?
Mewens wrote:That's an interesting take. I've always imagined on the spectrum of evil Chaos being on one end and tyranids on the other. Here's my reasoning:
I wouldn't really consider the Tyranids evil at all. Nor the Chaos Gods (Though their daemons and cultists usually are). But that's just me.
Chaos is a twisted reflection of sentience. Each of the four powers takes some aspect of the human/eldar/what-have-you condition and magnifies it to a grotesque extreme. There is a glimmer of recognition of the self in Chaos, which is part of its allure (for in-game characters, that is). I'm not a lore guru, but I was under the impression that demons had a parasitic relationship with sentient creatures, and in fact required them to continue to survive. (Plaguebearers growing from the souls of those killed in Nurgle's plagues, for example.) In that sense, no matter how ascendant Chaos is, humanity always has hope against it -- Chaos can't wipe humanity out without crippling itself. Whether that hope is reasonable or not doesn't really matter; it exists, and can animate conflict against Chaos.
It is the fact that the Chaos Gods are ultimately a reflection of the sentient races of the galaxy (Barring Necrons and Tyranids, in that regard they are similar) that makes them so alien, that they reflect us, yet are so twisted. Nurgle for instance, god of Despair, is a jovial, affable, loving god who loves all life, from the smallest bacterium to the greatest of the sentient organisms. And he loves nothing more than showering them with his gifts, debilitating, horrible poxes and plagues, your suffering perceived by him as you thanking him. His mortal followers are similar, they love him for the plagues he inflicts upon their bodies, that is the horror of Chaos, in joining them, you lose yourself, until you become as alien as they are. Tzeentch is also very alien, a powerful deity with perception of the timeline, using it to scheme and plot and scheme and plot and scheme and plot. Surely this being must have some grand, end goal in mind if he takes time orchestrating these grand, often contradicting, schemes? He doesn't, the scheming is its own purpose, Tzeentch is the Changer of Ways, and as long as the ball continues rolling, as long as something happens, he is winning.
Beyond that, Chaos can't be defeated (Short of either the Tyranids eating all life, the Necrons severing the Materium from the Immaterium, Ynnead manifesting, or the Emperor becoming a Warp God), it can't. Fighting Chaos does nothing but fuel it. When you enter battle and spill blood, Khorne grows stronger, as an easy example. As long as sentient life exists and none can challenge the Gods, Chaos will exist. Beyond that, the goal of Chaos is to merge the Warp with the Materium, doing this would crush all hope, and the Chaos Gods would have "won." Though they've been winning for ten thousand years.
The tyranids, on the other hand, visit a planet and scour it clean. If they beat you on a given world, that world's gone. They're the ultimate salt-sowing conquerers; they literally leave no trace of life behind. There's no hope if the tyranids win -- they will literally devour every speck of culture, civilization and life, leaving nothing to recoup. There's nothing in the tyranid hive mind that beckons to humanity -- even genestealer cults use mind control and charisma, not primal desire, to ensnare victims. Chaos is alien in the sense that it defies logic on an inexpressible scale; the tyranids are alien in that they have nothing in common with the human psyche.
You underestimate the taint of Chaos. If the taint grows bad enough, if a world becomes a Daemon World, that world is gone, beyond salvation, Exterminatus. The fact that Chaos beckons to humanity only makes them more implacable, not less, and those that lived there are killed or worse. Even if alive, they are changed irrevocably.
On a micro level, the result is the same; a world fallen to Chaos is just as gone as a world fallen to tyranids. But across the whole of the galaxy, a conquering tyranid force is the end of all things; a conquering Chaos force isn't.
The difference being that the Imperium doesn't allow a Chaos warband to parade across the galaxy like they do the Tyranids, forces originally meant to confront Leviathan have been redirected to help fight Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. And you are confusing Chaos' warbands with Chaos itself, Chaos has not been hindered at all.
On that scale, the necrons fill the exact same niche as the tyranids, but without any of the clever retcons that made their introduction feel so organic. A necron victory would be without even hollow hope. Necrons are alien and inimical to humanity in the way tyranids are. It's by that metric that I found them to be unsatisfying, forced and unnecessary.
If the Necrons, Tyranids, Chaos, or the Orks were to win, there would be no hope for humanity at all. Orks are similarly unreasonable and offer nothing to humanity, short of slaughter and the occasional slavery, barring the occasional open-minded Freebooter. All four factions share a few similarities, but have enough differences to stand out amongst themselves. Necrons however differ from the other three by standing firmly on the side of Law, something that is unique only to them in terms of the "villainous" factions.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Ever since I finished Space Marine (the game),
Spoiler:
I hate Inquisitors
The inquisitor was probably right though. A single space marine doesn't kill seventy-five chaos marines, thousands upon thousands of ork boyz, dozens of daemons and hundreds of traitor guard and then pop a Daemon Prince's head without either having help or being Kaldor Draigo or Lysander.
How childish the current IoM and space marines are.
Everything is black and white, and even being suspected of something is a death sentence. No room for reason, or humility, or what the astartes were created to do, and which is highlighted brilliantly in Tales of Heresy in the space wolf short.
If there is even the slightest chance that the planet can be saved, or that someone is innocent, or that by some slim chance you are wrong, they are sworn to try.
Also,
im2randomghgh wrote:
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Ever since I finished Space Marine (the game),
Spoiler:
I hate Inquisitors
The inquisitor was probably right though. A single space marine doesn't kill seventy-five chaos marines, thousands upon thousands of ork boyz, dozens of daemons and hundreds of traitor guard and then pop a Daemon Prince's head without either having help or being Kaldor Draigo or Lysander.
Sure he does, if he's a captain, and not on the tabletop. Ever read the fluff/lore/novels about space marine captains/chapter masters? Hell, regular marines wade through anything that isn't daemons/daemon princes like it's going out of style.
@Void__Dragon: Yes, I conceded most of those points: we know, from our god's-eye view, that Chaos is unbeatable; we also know that planets can be irredeemably damned by its taint (a fate that's possibly worse than simply being eaten).
I wasn't trying to say that Chaos conquering everything would be A-OK and not miserable hell; I'm saying that a Chaos victory, by nature, must include humanity. That means humans would have hope, even if it's a false hope. (A false hope, of course, could be a plan of Tzeentch's, for all we know. Again, it might be worse than just being eaten.)
My point was that a necron or a tyranid victory doesn't have that -- they win, nothing's left. The two fill the same role. (Orks don't, because they're not systematically trying to kill everything.)
Still, you're right -- there are plenty of differences at the on-the-ground level. Not only do the two armies play very differently, they look very different and have very different motivations.
I guess I could sum up our points of view this way: I see two groves of trees, and say "there's some trees." You go up to the trees, pick the fruit, and say, "One's apple and one's peach. They're similar, but fundamentally different." Would you say that's fair?
I would say they all do. I love the game, but GW story writing is horrible. Their characters lack depth and are very one dimensional. I have found that most of the novels are very predictable and somewhat unimaginative compared to other science fiction. As for the codex fluff, the product over the past few years is appalling and now blatantly written by fan boys. In general I think GW suffers from 1 big problem in the writing department. 1) game designers who think they are also authors and 2) a story line that doesn’t advance, but somehow has to take into account new army books released. The Tau are a perfect example. The basic 40k story line has not changed at all and hay this new race is thrown into the mix, but will not affect anything. The whole 40k universe is just stale at this point. There is so much potential there, but things are just thrown together or under developed.
Mewens wrote:@Void__Dragon: Yes, I conceded most of those points: we know, from our god's-eye view, that Chaos is unbeatable; we also know that planets can be irredeemably damned by its taint (a fate that's possibly worse than simply being eaten).
I wasn't trying to say that Chaos conquering everything would be A-OK and not miserable hell; I'm saying that a Chaos victory, by nature, must include humanity. That means humans would have hope, even if it's a false hope. (A false hope, of course, could be a plan of Tzeentch's, for all we know. Again, it might be worse than just being eaten.)
My point was that a necron or a tyranid victory doesn't have that -- they win, nothing's left. The two fill the same role. (Orks don't, because they're not systematically trying to kill everything.)
Still, you're right -- there are plenty of differences at the on-the-ground level. Not only do the two armies play very differently, they look very different and have very different motivations.
I guess I could sum up our points of view this way: I see two groves of trees, and say "there's some trees." You go up to the trees, pick the fruit, and say, "One's apple and one's peach. They're similar, but fundamentally different." Would you say that's fair?
Well, I personally disagree that humanity would really have hope if Chaos won, or that they have hope now. The 5e rulebook outright states they are the greatest threat to humanity at the moment. And humans would still be alive if the Necrons win, they don't seek the total annihilation of life as the Tyranids do. Though, I'm not sure if you could consider their state of being "living" at that point.
Mewens wrote:That's an interesting take. I've always imagined on the spectrum of evil Chaos being on one end and tyranids on the other. Here's my reasoning:
Chaos is a twisted reflection of sentience. Each of the four powers takes some aspect of the human/eldar/what-have-you condition and magnifies it to a grotesque extreme. There is a glimmer of recognition of the self in Chaos, which is part of its allure (for in-game characters, that is). I'm not a lore guru, but I was under the impression that demons had a parasitic relationship with sentient creatures, and in fact required them to continue to survive. (Plaguebearers growing from the souls of those killed in Nurgle's plagues, for example.) In that sense, no matter how ascendant Chaos is, humanity always has hope against it -- Chaos can't wipe humanity out without crippling itself. Whether that hope is reasonable or not doesn't really matter; it exists, and can animate conflict against Chaos.
The tyranids, on the other hand, visit a planet and scour it clean. If they beat you on a given world, that world's gone. They're the ultimate salt-sowing conquerers; they literally leave no trace of life behind. There's no hope if the tyranids win -- they will literally devour every speck of culture, civilization and life, leaving nothing to recoup. There's nothing in the tyranid hive mind that beckons to humanity -- even genestealer cults use mind control and charisma, not primal desire, to ensnare victims. Chaos is alien in the sense that it defies logic on an inexpressible scale; the tyranids are alien in that they have nothing in common with the human psyche.
On a micro level, the result is the same; a world fallen to Chaos is just as gone as a world fallen to tyranids. But across the whole of the galaxy, a conquering tyranid force is the end of all things; a conquering Chaos force isn't.
On that scale, the necrons fill the exact same niche as the tyranids, but without any of the clever retcons that made their introduction feel so organic. A necron victory would be without even hollow hope. Necrons are alien and inimical to humanity in the way tyranids are. It's by that metric that I found them to be unsatisfying, forced and unnecessary.
I would actually go to say that its the Tyranids and Necrons that define the extremes.
the Tyranids represent ultimate chaos. they symbolize life in its most raw and monsterous form. Eternally feeding, reproducing, growing. Tearing down to feed itself. They shall consume untill there is nothing left to consume. at the last, The Devourer shall consume itself.
the Necrons represent ultimate order. They are Entropy. They are death itself. The stillness that shall overcome the universe at the end of all things. Only when the last bit of energy has been spent and the last star has disappated will they truly rest for all eternity. The universe will be nothing but hunks of lifeless rock and massive clouds of gas hanging in equilibrium. and there will be no light, no sound, no movement. Only stillness...
Chaos is neither of these. It is both Life and Death. It is order bestowed upon the riot that is life.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I would say they all do. I love the game, but GW story writing is horrible. Their characters lack depth and are very one dimensional. I have found that most of the novels are very predictable and somewhat unimaginative compared to other science fiction. As for the codex fluff, the product over the past few years is appalling and now blatantly written by fan boys. In general I think GW suffers from 1 big problem in the writing department. 1) game designers who think they are also authors and 2) a story line that doesn’t advance, but somehow has to take into account new army books released. The Tau are a perfect example. The basic 40k story line has not changed at all and hay this new race is thrown into the mix, but will not affect anything. The whole 40k universe is just stale at this point. There is so much potential there, but things are just thrown together or under developed.
I can agree with characters being weakly created. The problem is that many of people (based solely on what I read here) like it this way. There is even acceptance that Space Marines should be basically Orks. They are supposed to be big, strong and tough. The value of a Space Marine is measured only by how hard he can punch in the face. Also, somebody's rank is based by how strong he is in combat. If somebody is chapter master it is preposterous if he can't everything up. Chapter leaders are supposed to have a great kill streak, they don't have to be leaders at all.
The second part is true, but I think this is made on purpose. This world was made to be dynamic, action-packed but at the same time stagnant and "tired". It is very slowly going towards a bad ending for many races and despite all the glamorous victories, battles on a huge scale, incredible feats by heroes nothing can change that. It also shows that there won't be a hero that can change that because so many heroes already done something incredible. It think it's deliberately made this way to enforce the grimdark(TM).
BronzeJon wrote:How childish the current IoM and space marines are.
Everything is black and white, and even being suspected of something is a death sentence. No room for reason, or humility, or what the astartes were created to do, and which is highlighted brilliantly in Tales of Heresy in the space wolf short.
If there is even the slightest chance that the planet can be saved, or that someone is innocent, or that by some slim chance you are wrong, they are sworn to try.
Also,
im2randomghgh wrote:
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Ever since I finished Space Marine (the game),
Spoiler:
I hate Inquisitors
The inquisitor was probably right though. A single space marine doesn't kill seventy-five chaos marines, thousands upon thousands of ork boyz, dozens of daemons and hundreds of traitor guard and then pop a Daemon Prince's head without either having help or being Kaldor Draigo or Lysander.
Sure he does, if he's a captain, and not on the tabletop. Ever read the fluff/lore/novels about space marine captains/chapter masters? Hell, regular marines wade through anything that isn't daemons/daemon princes like it's going out of style.
Even in the fluff, 1 SM =/= a daemon prince. If daemon princes, who are the most powerful of chaos space marines (and chaos space marines are even more power individually than loyalists) were weaker than Space Marines, then how come the Primarchs became daemon princes? Just sayin'
I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
Mewens wrote:That's an interesting take. I've always imagined on the spectrum of evil Chaos being on one end and tyranids on the other. Here's my reasoning:
Chaos is a twisted reflection of sentience. Each of the four powers takes some aspect of the human/eldar/what-have-you condition and magnifies it to a grotesque extreme. There is a glimmer of recognition of the self in Chaos, which is part of its allure (for in-game characters, that is). I'm not a lore guru, but I was under the impression that demons had a parasitic relationship with sentient creatures, and in fact required them to continue to survive. (Plaguebearers growing from the souls of those killed in Nurgle's plagues, for example.) In that sense, no matter how ascendant Chaos is, humanity always has hope against it -- Chaos can't wipe humanity out without crippling itself. Whether that hope is reasonable or not doesn't really matter; it exists, and can animate conflict against Chaos.
The tyranids, on the other hand, visit a planet and scour it clean. If they beat you on a given world, that world's gone. They're the ultimate salt-sowing conquerers; they literally leave no trace of life behind. There's no hope if the tyranids win -- they will literally devour every speck of culture, civilization and life, leaving nothing to recoup. There's nothing in the tyranid hive mind that beckons to humanity -- even genestealer cults use mind control and charisma, not primal desire, to ensnare victims. Chaos is alien in the sense that it defies logic on an inexpressible scale; the tyranids are alien in that they have nothing in common with the human psyche.
On a micro level, the result is the same; a world fallen to Chaos is just as gone as a world fallen to tyranids. But across the whole of the galaxy, a conquering tyranid force is the end of all things; a conquering Chaos force isn't.
On that scale, the necrons fill the exact same niche as the tyranids, but without any of the clever retcons that made their introduction feel so organic. A necron victory would be without even hollow hope. Necrons are alien and inimical to humanity in the way tyranids are. It's by that metric that I found them to be unsatisfying, forced and unnecessary.
I would actually go to say that its the Tyranids and Necrons that define the extremes.
the Tyranids represent ultimate chaos. they symbolize life in its most raw and monsterous form. Eternally feeding, reproducing, growing. Tearing down to feed itself. They shall consume untill there is nothing left to consume. at the last, The Devourer shall consume itself.
the Necrons represent ultimate order. They are Entropy. They are death itself. The stillness that shall overcome the universe at the end of all things. Only when the last bit of energy has been spent and the last star has disappated will they truly rest for all eternity. The universe will be nothing but hunks of lifeless rock and massive clouds of gas hanging in equilibrium. and there will be no light, no sound, no movement. Only stillness...
Chaos is neither of these. It is both Life and Death. It is order bestowed upon the riot that is life.
The way I see it the Necrons, Tyranids and Chaos are all extremely similar in one point: Their sole goal is to consume. Be it bio-matter, matter/energy or souls
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
Just because we totally killed Slaanesh...
That was fairly comical... and considering the mental state of most chaos worshippers you can't blame them for misundertsanding.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naievity is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naivety. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naivety is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
It was their first encounter with chaos correct?
They had a lack of wisdom and judgement due to their inexperience with chaos.
It's an understandable mistake but it is them being naive.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naivety. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naivety is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
It was their first encounter with chaos correct?
They had a lack of wisdom and judgement due to their inexperience with chaos.
It's an understandable mistake but it is them being naive.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naivety. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naivety is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
It was their first encounter with chaos correct?
They had a lack of wisdom and judgement due to their inexperience with chaos.
It's an understandable mistake but it is them being naive.
What lack of wisdom did they have?
They didn't know Slannesh is a chaos god. They therefore assumed he was the immediate commander of the local chaos forces.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naivety. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naivety is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
It was their first encounter with chaos correct?
They had a lack of wisdom and judgement due to their inexperience with chaos.
It's an understandable mistake but it is them being naive.
What lack of wisdom did they have?
They didn't know Slannesh is a chaos god. They therefore assumed he was the immediate commander of the local chaos forces.
What the hell does that have to do with wisdom??? That is, at the VERY BEST, a lack of intelligence jks.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naivety. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naivety is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
It was their first encounter with chaos correct?
They had a lack of wisdom and judgement due to their inexperience with chaos.
It's an understandable mistake but it is them being naive.
What lack of wisdom did they have?
They didn't know Slannesh is a chaos god. They therefore assumed he was the immediate commander of the local chaos forces.
What the hell does that have to do with wisdom??? That is, at the VERY BEST, a lack of intelligence jks.
purplefood wrote:I kinda like all of them...
The only ones that annoy me a little bit are the Tau and that's only because of their naievity. Even then it's not that annoying because of how their fluff seems to be going.
I don't see it as naivety so much as inexperience. Because the mistakes they're making are mistakes that are to be expected. If they were illogical courses of action, then I would consider it naive.
Naievity is lack of experience...
When I think of naive I think more of a lack of wisdom or judgement based on inexperience, rather than inexperience in and of itself
Don't confuse them. Naiveity is lack of experience, Ignorence is Bliss you might say.
Stupidity is doing something irrational or inspite of knowledge.
the Tau have a hefty does of both.
When they tried to assimilate Orks into the Greater Good, that was Naiveity. When they trusted the Dark Eldar, that was Stupidity. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
The Tau got burned with the Orks and they didn't think to apply said knowledge to any other races they encountered. They assume each race is a blank slate when all the major races are in direct competition with each other.
Wow, I post something, forget about it for a couple weeks, and when I come back there are seven pages of discussion. That' s a nice surprise.
Anyways, I wanted to add that in addition to being annoyed by the Ad Mech, I really can't stand the Space Wolfs. Let's ignore how much I hate their codex and stupid op rules, and just examine their fluff. I'm reading through the Horus Heresy book "A Thousand Sons". As far as I can tell, the Space Wolfs are not only hypocrites, but also almost directly responsible for the fall of the Thousand Sons legion to chaos. Lets look at those two things. Firstly, they are hypocrites 'cause they argue that all psykers should be done away with, and the Thousand Sons are traitors for still using psykers. But its totally okay for the Space Wolfs to have their 'rune priests'. I think Mangus even points this out to Russ who says something like 'no, rune priests are different 'cause their power comes from the Fenris, not the warp' or something like that. HYPOCRITES!. Secondly, if they hadn't have pushed the whole anti psyker thing (again, huge hypocrites about that) would Mangus have been able to warn the Emperor through more traditional means of communication rather then
Spoiler:
drilling a hole through the eldar webway gate at the Golden Throne
and basically screwing all of the Emperor's plans up?
I really dislike space wolfs. The only time I'm happy to see someone playing space wolfs is when its a two vs two battle, and my team mate is rolling SW. It usually makes for a really easy game.
Someone here likened Space Wolves to Space Hipsters. The analogy was pretty spot-on.
I believe it went something like: "Psykers are bad, we don't use them and neither should you. Our Rune Priests use the natural cycles of life and death on Fenris. You've probably never heard of it..."
But yeah, they aren't so much hypocritical in that regard as they are completely in denial or just hopelessly ignorant.
Void__Dragon wrote:Someone here likened Space Wolves to Space Hipsters. The analogy was pretty spot-on.
I believe it went something like: "Psykers are bad, we don't use them and neither should you. Our Rune Priests use the natural cycles of life and death on Fenris. You've probably never heard of it..."
But yeah, they aren't so much hypocritical in that regard as they are completely in denial or just hopelessly ignorant.
but that massive ignorance is their greatest strength. they never doubt their ways and they will never change them. they have all the answers to their own world and a singular will to punish that which does not fit into those ideals. that makes them some of the greatest fighters the emperor has at his disposal. in 40k ignorance is a virtue.
English Assassin wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus, like the Administratum and (to an extent) the Ecclesiarchy are doomed to be protrayed as annoyances - usually secondary ones - because they have no tabletop armies, and there is thus no playerbase to whom to appeal (or to avoid offending) by writing them as heroic or competent.
:: ahem ::
Somebody needs to read up on Sisters of Battle.
Back on topic, I guess it'd have to be the Inquisition in general. They're just such meanieheads in the way they go about their business, torturing innocents and whatnot. Also, they didn't give me any cookies.
Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
I used to think this. Then I played with them. I now have named every Nob and up in my army. Even my grot orderly has a name. I love them that much.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
I used to think this. Then I played with them. I now have named every Nob and up in my army. Even my grot orderly has a name. I love them that much.
I have played them, had a 2000 point army, but I could not get over the "HURR DURR" nature of the codex.
partly blood angels and necrons when they made a partial alliance, its just the blood angels had almost no purpose in that, the necrons would kill everything whenever either the nids or BA came into view without care until there ALL dead, not just the nids, also I generally dont like tau, its like the kid at school so desperate for friends, asks every person if they want to be friends, or races in this case, I also interpret that on fanatical christianity as in, do as I say or I'll hit you approach.
so yeah, tau mostly, but just that piece of background, it has no place of respect in my book, and should never have been written.
IXBEHEMOTHXI wrote:partly blood angels and necrons when they made a partial alliance, its just the blood angels had almost no purpose in that, the necrons would kill everything whenever either the nids or BA came into view without care until there ALL dead, not just the nids, also I generally dont like tau, its like the kid at school so desperate for friends, asks every person if they want to be friends, or races in this case, I also interpret that on fanatical christianity as in, do as I say or I'll hit you approach.
so yeah, tau mostly, but just that piece of background, it has no place of respect in my book, and should never have been written.
We're all upset over it, but all we can do is ignore it and move on. And then rage when the Necron 'Dex comes out with even worse fluff.
Oh yeah, Its not the major reason BA and cron fluff gets to me, its just a good example of how you can have an awsome sounding army, and just write a piece of crap to ruin a rather major part of backstory, so its not really to do with the army itself, its more or less how GW let that get published, it just thoughtless and out of context to the rest of the backstory for the BA.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
If you don't get Orks, then you don't get 40k. They're one of the few things still relatively true to the original source material as the game has evolved, and provide some often much needed humbling to many factions in the game.
And in case you haven't noticed, 40k is practically nothing *but* importations from everything else. We have Space C'thulu's, Space Knights, Space Elves (yes, Eldar were called that once), HR Geiger Aliens, Space Werewolves, etc. 40k is a Fantasy-In-SPAAAAAAAAAACE game, always has been. There's humongous importations of stuff from Dune, Starship Troopers, C'thulu mythos, Star Wars, Age of Sail stuff, Conan, etc.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
If you don't get Orks, then you don't get 40k. They're one of the few things still relatively true to the original source material as the game has evolved, and provide some often much needed humbling to many factions in the game.
And in case you haven't noticed, 40k is practically nothing *but* importations from everything else. We have Space C'thulu's, Space Knights, Space Elves (yes, Eldar were called that once), HR Geiger Aliens, Space Werewolves, etc. 40k is a Fantasy-In-SPAAAAAAAAAACE game, always has been. There's humongous importations of stuff from Dune, Starship Troopers, C'thulu mythos, Star Wars, Age of Sail stuff, Conan, etc.
while everything may be imported, they are not named as such. And Orks are the only race that has retained this nonsense.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
If you don't get Orks, then you don't get 40k. They're one of the few things still relatively true to the original source material as the game has evolved, and provide some often much needed humbling to many factions in the game.
And in case you haven't noticed, 40k is practically nothing *but* importations from everything else. We have Space C'thulu's, Space Knights, Space Elves (yes, Eldar were called that once), HR Geiger Aliens, Space Werewolves, etc. 40k is a Fantasy-In-SPAAAAAAAAAACE game, always has been. There's humongous importations of stuff from Dune, Starship Troopers, C'thulu mythos, Star Wars, Age of Sail stuff, Conan, etc.
while everything may be imported, they are not named as such. And Orks are the only race that has retained this nonsense.
If you want to nit-pick, then not exactly. WHB has Orcs, W40K has Orks.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:who are the space cthulus, Necrons?
I'd say that Chaos is more of a Lovecraftian entity then Necrons.
what about the C'tan? They're likened to the mythos quite often, it seems.
Good point, but I think that Chaos is more Lovecraftian sheerly because it has cults. You can't be a Lovecraftian entity without a vicious cult worshipping you.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:who are the space cthulus, Necrons?
I'd say that Chaos is more of a Lovecraftian entity then Necrons.
what about the C'tan? They're likened to the mythos quite often, it seems.
Good point, but I think that Chaos is more Lovecraftian sheerly because it has cults. You can't be a Lovecraftian entity without a vicious cult worshipping you.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:who are the space cthulus, Necrons?
I'd say that Chaos is more of a Lovecraftian entity then Necrons.
what about the C'tan? They're likened to the mythos quite often, it seems.
Good point, but I think that Chaos is more Lovecraftian sheerly because it has cults. You can't be a Lovecraftian entity without a vicious cult worshipping you.
Errr Ad Mech? Void Dragon of Mars?
But that's only one small section of the Mechanicus. The Cults of Chaos are much larger and widespread.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:who are the space cthulus, Necrons?
I'd say that Chaos is more of a Lovecraftian entity then Necrons.
what about the C'tan? They're likened to the mythos quite often, it seems.
Good point, but I think that Chaos is more Lovecraftian sheerly because it has cults. You can't be a Lovecraftian entity without a vicious cult worshipping you.
Errr Ad Mech? Void Dragon of Mars?
But that's only one small section of the Mechanicus. The Cults of Chaos are much larger and widespread.
Ah, good point. Still an awesome idea though. Hope it finds it's way into the codex. Skitarri meatshield FTW!
Any back on topic, It would be the craftworld Eldar irk me the most. The new GK come close, for being a bunch of Mary Sues.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
If you don't get Orks, then you don't get 40k. They're one of the few things still relatively true to the original source material as the game has evolved, and provide some often much needed humbling to many factions in the game.
And in case you haven't noticed, 40k is practically nothing *but* importations from everything else. We have Space C'thulu's, Space Knights, Space Elves (yes, Eldar were called that once), HR Geiger Aliens, Space Werewolves, etc. 40k is a Fantasy-In-SPAAAAAAAAAACE game, always has been. There's humongous importations of stuff from Dune, Starship Troopers, C'thulu mythos, Star Wars, Age of Sail stuff, Conan, etc.
while everything may be imported, they are not named as such. And Orks are the only race that has retained this nonsense.
If you want to nit-pick, then not exactly. WHB has Orcs, W40K has Orks.
I agree with the idea that Orks are as quintessential as Space Marines to 40k.
Space Marines is not an original name. GW just dropped the Colonial part of Colonial Space Marines from the Alien series. Eldar is the name of one of the Elvish lines in the Tolkien Mythos. Necron, Tyranids and Ultramarines are all completely uninspired and unimaginative names. Nothing in 40k is particularly original, it's just a fun(fun being the keyword, which you seem to have a problem with) mishmash of different influences to give background to a game.
If orks aren't grimdark enough for you you should probably just buy a couple boxes of Malifuax models and lock yourself in your room with your Sisters of Mercy cds.
Flaming_Spider wrote:Orks. I hate Orks. I hate their look, I hate their fluff, I hate their play style. There isn't anything that I like about Orks, I would be a far happier person if they were removed from 40k altogether, and never seen again.
I don't believe they have any place in the setting, and are just here for comedic relief. While comedic relief is ok, when there is an entire race/faction based around it, I start to get annoyed. Nothing about their codex can be taken seriously.
Now, the concept itself is an excellent one, I just think that the naming and fluff is all wrong. Instead of Orks, come up with something original, like EVERY other race in the game. Give them a name from the setting, and don't import one from virtually every other fantasy/sci-fi game in existence. Unit names are ridiculous as well. Boyz. Seriously? And spelling everything as wrong as possible just makes it worse.
I like the idea of an unstoppable horde of war loving monsters, that's cool, but they need to be taken seriously. Come up with some truly original names, spell them correctly, and don't try as hard as you can to make the entire faction look like it was created by a team of five year olds.
If you don't get Orks, then you don't get 40k. They're one of the few things still relatively true to the original source material as the game has evolved, and provide some often much needed humbling to many factions in the game.
And in case you haven't noticed, 40k is practically nothing *but* importations from everything else. We have Space C'thulu's, Space Knights, Space Elves (yes, Eldar were called that once), HR Geiger Aliens, Space Werewolves, etc. 40k is a Fantasy-In-SPAAAAAAAAAACE game, always has been. There's humongous importations of stuff from Dune, Starship Troopers, C'thulu mythos, Star Wars, Age of Sail stuff, Conan, etc.
while everything may be imported, they are not named as such. And Orks are the only race that has retained this nonsense.
If you want to nit-pick, then not exactly. WHB has Orcs, W40K has Orks.
I agree with the idea that Orks are as quintessential as Space Marines to 40k.
Space Marines is not an original name. GW just dropped the Colonial part of Colonial Space Marines from the Alien series. Eldar is the name of one of the Elvish lines in the Tolkien Mythos. Necron, Tyranids and Ultramarines are all completely uninspired and unimaginative names. Nothing in 40k is particularly original, it's just a fun(fun being the keyword, which you seem to have a problem with) mishmash of different influences to give background to a game.
If orks aren't grimdark enough for you you should probably just buy a couple boxes of Malifuax models and lock yourself in your room with your Sisters of Mercy cds.
Hahaha. That comment made me laugh. I love Malifaux.
Anyway, I wasn't saying fun should be abolished, I take no issue with it, and I wasn't saying everything in 40k is completely original. All I was trying to say is that I wished Orks took itself a little more seriously, as opposed to being a giant joke.
You CAN play less wacky orks. Play a Goff horde doing the green version of nazi storm troopers, with black vehicles and regimented troops. Goffs have no sense of humour
Orks are much less of a joke if you avoid the wackier random units, and run them as a darker, cruder version of the third Reich or Stalin's USSR ...
I run a multi-clan army, but i've seen a brilliant painting and conversion ork army done up as WW2 german, which they already have a heavy dose of in the background and models if you look closely, especially the older ones.
Phiasco II wrote:Wow, I post something, forget about it for a couple weeks, and when I come back there are seven pages of discussion. That' s a nice surprise.
Anyways, I wanted to add that in addition to being annoyed by the Ad Mech, I really can't stand the Space Wolfs. Let's ignore how much I hate their codex and stupid op rules, and just examine their fluff. I'm reading through the Horus Heresy book "A Thousand Sons". As far as I can tell, the Space Wolfs are not only hypocrites, but also almost directly responsible for the fall of the Thousand Sons legion to chaos. Lets look at those two things. Firstly, they are hypocrites 'cause they argue that all psykers should be done away with, and the Thousand Sons are traitors for still using psykers. But its totally okay for the Space Wolfs to have their 'rune priests'. I think Mangus even points this out to Russ who says something like 'no, rune priests are different 'cause their power comes from the Fenris, not the warp' or something like that. HYPOCRITES!. Secondly, if they hadn't have pushed the whole anti psyker thing (again, huge hypocrites about that) would Mangus have been able to warn the Emperor through more traditional means of communication rather then
Spoiler:
drilling a hole through the eldar webway gate at the Golden Throne
and basically screwing all of the Emperor's plans up?
I really dislike space wolfs. The only time I'm happy to see someone playing space wolfs is when its a two vs two battle, and my team mate is rolling SW. It usually makes for a really easy game.
Read "Prospero Burns" before making judgement, there are two sides to this story.
Tyranids! They only have one army build (As far as the local meta at my FLGS) and I'm having a bitch-kitty of a time finding an Ork list that can beat it. I'm sure you know which list I'm taking about, but just in case you have been living under a rock, I'll describe it. The specifics vary depending on the points value total (Usually between 1,750 and 2,000) but the generalities are the same.
HQ
Tervigon
ELITES
3 Zoanthropes in a pod
2x2 Hive guard
TROOPS
2x10 termagants
2 more Tervigons
Massive unit of Genestealers, usually no Broddlord
HEAVY SUPPORT
2xTrygons, usually at least one is a Prime
The best I've ever achieved against this build is a tie, and that was by some extremely excellent dice rolling and bold actions in the 7th turn. Damn no-personality gant-pooping vermin!
warpcrafter wrote:Tyranids! They only have one army build (As far as the local meta at my FLGS) and I'm having a bitch-kitty of a time finding an Ork list that can beat it. I'm sure you know which list I'm taking about, but just in case you have been living under a rock, I'll describe it. The specifics vary depending on the points value total (Usually between 1,750 and 2,000) but the generalities are the same.
HQ
Tervigon
ELITES
3 Zoanthropes in a pod
2x2 Hive guard
TROOPS
2x10 termagants
2 more Tervigons
Massive unit of Genestealers, usually no Broddlord
HEAVY SUPPORT
2xTrygons, usually at least one is a Prime
The best I've ever achieved against this build is a tie, and that was by some extremely excellent dice rolling and bold actions in the 7th turn. Damn no-personality gant-pooping vermin!
This one is actually rather easy to get around. For this, you gotta go with Wagonspam and death rollas. However, keep one HQ slot open for a Bikerboss and some Bikernobs, preferably including a painboy and give them all cybork. Use the wagons for crunching the small bugs, and charge the bigger ones with the Bikers- 4+/5++/4+Cover/FeelNoPain = pretty damn invincible, although a point-costy. Alternatively, Lootas may work as well against the big one, but in big numbers.
warpcrafter wrote:Tyranids! They only have one army build (As far as the local meta at my FLGS) and I'm having a bitch-kitty of a time finding an Ork list that can beat it. I'm sure you know which list I'm taking about, but just in case you have been living under a rock, I'll describe it. The specifics vary depending on the points value total (Usually between 1,750 and 2,000) but the generalities are the same.
HQ
Tervigon
ELITES
3 Zoanthropes in a pod
2x2 Hive guard
TROOPS
2x10 termagants
2 more Tervigons
Massive unit of Genestealers, usually no Broddlord
HEAVY SUPPORT
2xTrygons, usually at least one is a Prime
The best I've ever achieved against this build is a tie, and that was by some extremely excellent dice rolling and bold actions in the 7th turn. Damn no-personality gant-pooping vermin!
Open-top transports+flame throwers=kills nids.
Or just go orky-shooty. Dakka is generally good 'gainst nids
Because they wouldn't be Orks if you made them as staid and sober as the other races.
Marines used to be psychotic and xenocidal. Not so much these days. They didn't have 8 ft plot armour back then either...
They are as much part of 40K as any other race, and more so than Necrons, Tau or any other latecomers. If you don't like them that way that's your option, but they are still 40K.
If you read up on them you'll find that despite their random tech and speech impediments they can be very, very grimdark indeed at times
Now, Tau aren't exactly my favorites either, but why are they considered "anime"? Is it because they use mechs? Because giant ass kicking robots is a concept everyone agrees on. And besides, the Eldar have plenty of eastern reference as well, but no one calls them out on it.
Luke_Prowler wrote:Now, Tau aren't exactly my favorites either, but why are they considered "anime"? Is it because they use mechs? Because giant ass kicking robots is a concept everyone agrees on. And besides, the Eldar have plenty of eastern reference as well, but no one calls them out on it.
Also they have a massive amount of celtic influence, and a smidge of art deco. (1920's reimagining of celtic decoration). The oriental influences are less pronounced than with Tau
I like the Tau. The brainwashed, fiercely hierarchical caste system hiding behind a facade of a willing coalition of species fits perfectly in the universe.
Luke_Prowler wrote:Now, Tau aren't exactly my favorites either, but why are they considered "anime"? Is it because they use mechs? Because giant ass kicking robots is a concept everyone agrees on. And besides, the Eldar have plenty of eastern reference as well, but no one calls them out on it.
Leave the Tau alone. There is nothing Anime-ish in the slightest about them. I see no tentacles, ridiculous (but ever so slightly adorable) schoolgirl uniforms, or giant eyes.
Argyle Culpepper wrote:so far we have heard space wolves, Ad Mech, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Ultrasmurfs, and Chaos Marines.
But what about Orks, Necrons, Nids and Guard?
personally the entire fluff behind marines in general being an unstoppable force capable of crushing an entire planet with a handful of men makes me feel ill to read about.
Tyranids are powerful in the fluff, but they actually preform the same way in tabletop. Of all the armies, Tyranids are the most similar between fluff and canon.
Guard are the universes butt monkey and as such are lesser irritants to most people.
Orks are the 40k universes comedic relief.
Necrons bounce arround in value so much that (fluff-wise) it is hard to get a clear picture.
The Scrubs. Their special rule, 'Whinge About Army That We Last Lost To Being Broken,' gets my goat every time. That and their ability to suck all the fun out of the game is totally overpowered.
htj wrote:The Scrubs. Their special rule, 'Whinge About Army That We Last Lost To Being Broken,' gets my goat every time. That and their ability to suck all the fun out of the game is totally overpowered.
*Question time*
GK and nids... over powered and they arnt enjoyable to fight against.
If you beleive that Nids are overpowered you MUST be up against a good player. They got beaten so hard with the nerf bat that i'm amazed they are still viable.
There are a couple of workable builds, but they did take a heavy shivving.
If you can't see the Anime/Rifts in the Tau, you're blind. The only thing that looks like Tau that aren't mobile suits are the NGR Suits from Rifts.
Even the Broadside suits are basically Glitterboys. The Stealthsuits are the Coalition thingys that skim over the ground.
I can't stand the Grey Knights. I bring it up all the time, but I just don't think they should have a codex. Maybe a Chapter Aproved that has rules for a single 5 man squad.
IMHO I just don't feel the Grey Knights really have a place in the universe. Sure, they're ment to face the darkness of Chaos. So aren't marines, Sisters, IG and all the other factions that have been battling chaos since the birth of the Imperium.
Grey Knights annoy me because they are a blatant marketing scam that fanboys eat up like goldfish sucking at the surface.
"Hmmm... we need more money to pay for this finecast crap... Make more marines... Infact, make a whole new line of models and completely ignore the fact we already have a huge range of models for these marines. Give them tons of weapon options so that the previous players have to buy overpriced boxes of junk they already own. Now have one of our smallest minded chimps crap onto a typewriter and well call it a codex. Oh and be sure to include some fluff that makes absolutly no sense. Ha ha ha the fools... Wait till they see this stupid robot thingy with a marine inside. To hell with the dreadnoughts this thing will sell like hotcakes! We'll be rich I tell you! RICH!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!" - GW exec when asked how he likes his coffee (or maybe Tea... ugh).
From a fluff perspective, I probably dislike space marines the most (all flavors). They are just too OTT to be believable or even taken seriously especially when looking at the numbers.
So picking the best of the worst would be Space Wolves and the worst of the worst would be Blood Angles.
From the table top the loathing I have for the Deamons codex and what they represent is incomparable.
I really don't mind all races. Tau are probably my least favourite, but I think they're still alright. Too much of "THE GREATER GOOD", maybe.
However, the one I loathe above all factions, races and everything is the guy who wrote about back-flipping terminators and MULTILAZURS attached to everything.
DeffDred wrote:If you can't see the Anime/Rifts in the Tau, you're blind. The only thing that looks like Tau that aren't mobile suits are the NGR Suits from Rifts.
Even the Broadside suits are basically Glitterboys. The Stealthsuits are the Coalition thingys that skim over the ground.
Actually, the XV-8 remind me of Shockwave from Transformers... Who is a Japanese toy design most remember for his role in an American written TV show. He has the chunky chest, the skinny legs, the mono-eye, the prism-shaped head, the little antennae, and the gun arm. Probably a coincidence, but he looks far more like a battlesuit than most other anime robots.
The resemblance is pretty clear with this picture.
In the fluff, I think all the races have their place and don't actively dislike any, even if I don't particularly like how they're written.
There are a couple who's implementation into the tabletop irks me though, and that's both Chaos Daemons and Grey Knights. Both feel like they should only ever be fighting alongside other forces as an addition but not be armies in their own right to me.
Kazerkinelite wrote:Tau and orks...two dumbest races. Tau are anime in space and orks are cartoons in space. The way they are presented just doesn't feel 40k to me
Squigsquasher wrote:Leave the Tau alone. There is nothing Anime-ish in the slightest about them. I see no tentacles, ridiculous (but ever so slightly adorable) schoolgirl uniforms, or giant eyes.
Tentacles, schoolgril uniforms, and giant eyes =/= all Anime. They are mearly subsections of anime.
You seem to forget the entire Mech theme and the hyper advanced theme.
I would class mechs and "hyper advanced tech" under general sci-fi more than anything else. In fact the Tau have always struck me as the obligatory generic sci-fi race. Let's be honest, every other faction is too fantasy or gothic to be a straight up sci fi race that has robitz and shoots blue energy thingies.
Also, when I think of anime robots I think of the shows everyone knows, like Neon Genesis Evangelion and Gundam Wing both of which don't look like the blocky tau stuff, and by stuff I mean like 1-2 units in the entire codex.
Eldar titans always seemed more animeish and even then only by a little. Maybe there are other mecha anime with similar designs as the tau but they are all so obscure.
asimo77 wrote:I would class mechs and "hyper advanced tech" under general sci-fi more than anything else. In fact the Tau have always struck me as the obligatory generic sci-fi race. Let's be honest, every other faction is too fantasy or gothic to be a straight up sci fi race that has robitz and shoots blue energy thingies.
Also, when I think of anime robots I think of the shows everyone knows, like Neon Genesis Evangelion and Gundam Wing both of which don't look like the blocky tau stuff, and by stuff I mean like 1-2 units in the entire codex.
Eldar titans always seemed more animeish and even then only by a little. Maybe there are other mecha anime with similar designs as the tau but they are all so obscure.
I agree, they dont seem very anime-ish when you take a closer look.
Unfortunately though, when talking about the inspiration for Tau, GW said they wanted an optimistic anime faction :(
Imperial Fists. I'm an Iron warriors player so obvious choice. plus Rogal Dorn is a donkeyhat.
followed by tau. Shoot from the other side of the board and run away from close combat situations!
followed by eldar. Sorry to the people sticking up for eldar but the are stuck up b s that need to realise they aren't as awesome as they seem to think.
Most of the factions of the galaxy are arrogant, Eldar are probably around the top but the Imperium's still very arrogant. Of course I'm pretty sure there's another thread somewhere for debating the arrogance of various factions, so I won't argue my point further.
Kazerkinelite wrote:Tau and orks...two dumbest races. Tau are anime in space and orks are cartoons in space. The way they are presented just doesn't feel 40k to me
Less anime here?
Meet this quote.
Molten Butter wrote:Only in 40k are imperialistic Communist oppressors with castes and mind control not considered "grim enough".
Chaos Deamons..... I'm a CSM player and I always saw the CD like extra for the CSM army not an army by themselves like their a Deamons general thinking yeah lets attack this place, or no let's make an ambush , their just deamons they attack like crazy dudes on roids rage! BTW the models are horrible , especially the Soul Grinder what is this big piece of !
And Grey Knights since they got the super-awesome-too-big-Nemesis-Dreadknight!
I hate Space Marines, especially the Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens! They're too pathos and GW pay them more attention than other factions. I tolerate Space Wolves - they have their own style.
But I like Grey Knights - they aren't so commonplace as SM do.
Chaos Daemons are disgusting but this is how daemons must look like.
Edlar have reasons for their arrogance but it's the thing that stops them from alliance with Imperium.
Grey Knights. If they are supposed to be dedicated to hunting Daemons, why do so many of their bad ass tricks, weapons, and options, not effect Daemons? Force weapons don't work on them, their anti-psych doesn't work on them. It's just an excuse to make them better than every other army out there. I kinda liked the Rock Paper Scissors approach to the game when setting certain armies and their possible lists against each other, and other armies settling in the middle with solid but not outrageous advantages or disadvantages. I'm glad the new DE codex has gone back to that.
Petriel, I'm certain that the extreme xenophobia and even more extreme fear of everything that's not completely under the Imperium's control has nothing to do with it.
In either case, while it's the Imperium's lot to be the man character of the story, it's the Eldar's lot to be the annoying side-character who's read the script and refuses to tell you. Being annoyed at the Eldar is (and should be) the defacto status quo for non-Eldar players, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Personally, though, I'm annoyed at the over-exposure of Space Marines in general, especially how they always end up having, for some odd reason, ever so slightly better tech than both Eldar AND Necron (I focus on games more than fluff).
P.S. Earlier someone asked when was the last time Eldar did anything for a human colony. Well, I've only read one Warhammer fluff book so far, Way of the Warrior, and in there the Eldar expediently assassinate would-be cultists and dispose of a chaos artefact which, without Eldar intervention, would've consumed several worlds in the sector into chaos and presented a potential threat to the Alaitoc craftworld.
P.P.S. Eldar aren't racists as such. In general, the more moderate craftworlds (let's ignore warmongering Biel'Tan and the Saim-Hann mongrels for a second) welcome human neighbours - if it weren't for the fact that "they are so easily corrupted".
True, there are races that Eldar would rather share proximity to, but they generally aren't major ones.
P.P.P.S. How can you be "racist" when there is biological foundations for actual differences between the different people. I mean, humans share a lot more with monkeys and apes than with Eldar...
"Unfounded xenophobic" is perhaps a better term for what Eldar are not.
P.P.P.P.S. Yes, you're allowed to put how many P's you want in front of a P.S. It just makes it look weird.
Space marines do get an unfair amount of coverage compared to other armies but games workshop is a business. They are obviously going to give more coverage to the areas bringing in the most money. Ultrasmurfs, I imagine, are the most popular with GW customers, but that's just a guess. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Then after ultrasmurfs it's probably another SM chapter holding 2nd most popular spot. I dislike ultrasmurfs purely due to the fact that evreyone seems to have them. I prefer the underdog to the fool put on a pedestal because according to the majority vote, he's the best thing since sliced bread.
Locclo wrote:I really only find issue with single pieces of fluff, like how the Blood Angels allied with the Necrons.
People bringing this up always bug me. Basically you have two sides slugging it out to a stalemate. Then a third much larger force invades. To survive you shift your priorities.
... except for the fact that the Necrontyr have nothing to fear from the Tyranids. 'Nids need biomass, Necrontyr are... metal robots. Not exactly good feeding unless you need a lot of iron in your diet. Which gets rid of the primary purpose of a Nid: Eat and Grow.
Then, of course, you have the Necron weapons which tear apart an enemies atoms. Doesn't exactly leave a whole lot for the little critters to scoop back up if they do happen to win.
Hence the reason why Tyranid Hive fleets avoid planets with Necrons on them. Even if the poor little buggers manage to win... they lose: No biomass left to harvest.
With that in mind, the whole concept of Necron's fighting a "common" enemy is ludicrous. At worst, they would have left the battlefield and let the marines get chomped while coming back later to "mop" up the winner. At best, they wouldn't have bothered to stop fighting as the 'Nids would have left them alone.
So, we have a little story whose premise is beyond unbelievable even in this fictional setting for the following reasons:
1. The 'Nids wouldn't have approached the planet in the first place.
2. Barring that, the Nids would never have engaged the Necrons.
3. Barring that, the Necrons don't need rest. As soon as the 'Nids were removed they would have gone straight back into the fight with the marines. Teleporting in new warriors as necessary from wherever they needed them. To date the only way to beat the Necrons on one of their worlds has been to completely obliterate it from orbit. Why? Because a tomb world has an apparently inexhaustible supply of warriors. Which leads us to #4
4. The Blood Angels, with just a teensy bit of intelligence, would have simply bombed the world into oblivion in the first place thereby avoiding the entire encounter.
The ONLY way to salvage this is going to be if the new Necron codex ret cons enough to say that each warrior has some type of biomass that the 'Nids might want.
Getting back to the topic on hand: The Blood Angels annoy me the most for that one story.
Ghenghis Jon wrote:Grey Knights. If they are supposed to be dedicated to hunting Daemons, why do so many of their bad ass tricks, weapons, and options, not effect Daemons? Force weapons don't work on them, their anti-psych doesn't work on them. It's just an excuse to make them better than every other army out there. I kinda liked the Rock Paper Scissors approach to the game when setting certain armies and their possible lists against each other, and other armies settling in the middle with solid but not outrageous advantages or disadvantages. I'm glad the new DE codex has gone back to that.
Much of that is holdovers from when Force Weapons were specifically anti-daemon weapons and did horrendous damage against them which apparently GW decided to do a U-Turn on and make them as effective against Daemons as a rifle butt.
Oriallis wrote:Most of the factions of the galaxy are arrogant, Eldar are probably around the top but the Imperium's still very arrogant. Of course I'm pretty sure there's another thread somewhere for debating the arrogance of various factions, so I won't argue my point further.
Mahtamori wrote:Petriel, I'm certain that the extreme xenophobia and even more extreme fear of everything that's not completely under the Imperium's control has nothing to do with it.
In either case, while it's the Imperium's lot to be the man character of the story, it's the Eldar's lot to be the annoying side-character who's read the script and refuses to tell you. Being annoyed at the Eldar is (and should be) the defacto status quo for non-Eldar players, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Personally, though, I'm annoyed at the over-exposure of Space Marines in general, especially how they always end up having, for some odd reason, ever so slightly better tech than both Eldar AND Necron (I focus on games more than fluff).
P.S. Earlier someone asked when was the last time Eldar did anything for a human colony. Well, I've only read one Warhammer fluff book so far, Way of the Warrior, and in there the Eldar expediently assassinate would-be cultists and dispose of a chaos artefact which, without Eldar intervention, would've consumed several worlds in the sector into chaos and presented a potential threat to the Alaitoc craftworld.
P.P.S. Eldar aren't racists as such. In general, the more moderate craftworlds (let's ignore warmongering Biel'Tan and the Saim-Hann mongrels for a second) welcome human neighbours - if it weren't for the fact that "they are so easily corrupted".
True, there are races that Eldar would rather share proximity to, but they generally aren't major ones.
P.P.P.S. How can you be "racist" when there is biological foundations for actual differences between the different people. I mean, humans share a lot more with monkeys and apes than with Eldar...
"Unfounded xenophobic" is perhaps a better term for what Eldar are not.
P.P.P.P.S. Yes, you're allowed to put how many P's you want in front of a P.S. It just makes it look weird.
I'm a moderate Eldar without racism and prejudice , but I'm still an Eldar. We have reasons for our arrogance because Imperium is ruled by a griup of xenophobic barbarian religious fanatics who don't care about their people. If only they came to our rule... Then they'll be Gue'Vesa rather then Mon-keigh. Are SM and particularly Ultrasmurfs really the most popular armies in WH40k? Or are they an over-exposed forced meme invented by GW?
I'll say that "Nekron Boyz'" are over-powered in 3rd ed. codex and Eldar technology is still more advanced than the Imperial.
Well... um... I think I might've messed up my grammar a bit there. Yeah, for most of the craftworlds humans as a race aren't so bad (for Biel'tan they need to be physically removed from several worlds, and Saim-Hann just aren't compatible with anyone - other Eldar included).
Anyways, Ultrasmurfs is the poster child for Space Marines, yes. It's the most over-exposed marine and also the chapter which sets the standards for the other chapters - which is why you don't get Codex: Space Invaders, since they already adhere to the smurf-written codex (well, besides that chapter having had their collective butt kicked on their own turf by Alaitoc)
Fuzz wrote:Imperial Fists. I'm an Iron warriors player so obvious choice. plus Rogal Dorn is a donkeyhat.
followed by tau. Shoot from the other side of the board and run away from close combat situations!
followed by eldar. Sorry to the people sticking up for eldar but the are stuck up b s that need to realise they aren't as awesome as they seem to think.
-_- you be hatin' all my factions.
butbutbut...DORN WAS COOL. He was all noble and honest and duel-y. PLUS HE HAD A BITCHIN' MOUSTACHE!
Farseer Petriel wrote:I hate Space Marines, especially the Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens!
My 2 favorite chapters...I can understand the poster thing and the attention and all but - why?
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Kazerkinelite wrote:Tau and orks...two dumbest races. Tau are anime in space and orks are cartoons in space. The way they are presented just doesn't feel 40k to me
Less anime here?
Japanese like culture, Far-East like music, giant battlesuits, high tech, strange look, overpowered stuff....
Sounds like anime to me...
Brother Coa wrote:
Japanese like culture, Far-East like music, giant battlesuits, high tech, strange look, overpowered stuff....
Sounds like anime to me...
Overpowered? Oh God no. Not in fluff or on the tabletop. No.
Farseer Petriel wrote:I hate Space Marines, especially the Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens!
My 2 favorite chapters...I can understand the poster thing and the attention and all but - why?
Because they both appear in almost all Warhammer 40000-related stuff (posters, video games, movie etc) and for many people 40k associates primarily with Space Marines despite many other interesting races existing in that universe.
Farseer Petriel wrote:I hate Space Marines, especially the Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens!
My 2 favorite chapters...I can understand the poster thing and the attention and all but - why?
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Kazerkinelite wrote:Tau and orks...two dumbest races. Tau are anime in space and orks are cartoons in space. The way they are presented just doesn't feel 40k to me
Less anime here?
Japanese like culture, Far-East like music, giant battlesuits, high tech, strange look, overpowered stuff....
Sounds like anime to me...
Their culture is more similar to that of soviet russia's. The Imperium of Man has giant battlesuits (dreads, knights, terminators, titans, legio cybernetica), high technology, looks MUCH stranger than tau and have Imperators, which are overpowered.
That kinda backfired for you, didn't it?
Though I do admit their models are anime-inspired, even if their fluff isn't.
Brother Coa wrote:
Japanese like culture, Far-East like music, giant battlesuits, high tech, strange look, overpowered stuff....
Sounds like anime to me...
Overpowered? Oh God no. Not in fluff or on the tabletop. No.
I so called this.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Next we'll here that Tau are overpowered. Them Firewarriors are unbeatable in CC.
Fuzz wrote:Imperial Fists. I'm an Iron warriors player so obvious choice. plus Rogal Dorn is a donkeyhat.
followed by tau. Shoot from the other side of the board and run away from close combat situations!
followed by eldar. Sorry to the people sticking up for eldar but the are stuck up b s that need to realise they aren't as awesome as they seem to think.
-_- you be hatin' all my factions.
butbutbut...DORN WAS COOL. He was all noble and honest and duel-y. PLUS HE HAD A BITCHIN' MOUSTACHE!
I don't hate them as such, they're just the armies that annoy me the most. Which in a game is a good thing because it's more fun that way. I have such a dislike for Dorn due to the fluff about his and Perturabo's relationship which, basically consisted of Dorn taking the mick out of Perturabo and then telling him although he is a siege specialist he would never crack the defences of Holy Terra.... Which Perturabo then pretty much managed to do. Also Dorn then proved himself further as a donkeyhat by refusing assistance with the the seige of the eternal fortress, at which he lost a good portions of his fisters. also.... Yellow? completely yellow!? REALLY!!?
TrollPie wrote:
Overpowered? Oh God no. Not in fluff or on the tabletop. No.
Really?
Like guns that can shoot a fly from half a planet?
Or battlesuits who carry firepower to tear down a Titan in 1 shot?
Lmao, how about 3rd Edition codex?
Still, guns that pick Guardsman and Astartes like flies from 5 miles away...
Umm...Not sure if you've noticed...but at five miles away, guard can use their artillery to full effect. When the IG uses artillery, they win.
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Fuzz wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Fuzz wrote:Imperial Fists. I'm an Iron warriors player so obvious choice. plus Rogal Dorn is a donkeyhat.
followed by tau. Shoot from the other side of the board and run away from close combat situations!
followed by eldar. Sorry to the people sticking up for eldar but the are stuck up b s that need to realise they aren't as awesome as they seem to think.
-_- you be hatin' all my factions.
butbutbut...DORN WAS COOL. He was all noble and honest and duel-y. PLUS HE HAD A BITCHIN' MOUSTACHE!
I don't hate them as such, they're just the armies that annoy me the most. Which in a game is a good thing because it's more fun that way. I have such a dislike for Dorn due to the fluff about his and Perturabo's relationship which, basically consisted of Dorn taking the mick out of Perturabo and then telling him although he is a siege specialist he would never crack the defences of Holy Terra.... Which Perturabo then pretty much managed to do. Also Dorn then proved himself further as a donkeyhat by refusing assistance with the the seige of the eternal fortress, at which he lost a good portions of his fisters. also.... Yellow? completely yellow!? REALLY!!?
He didn't manage it. The loyalists won the battle.
Plus, Yellow is so bright, that to go into battle wearing it, you'd need balls like grape fruits. And idk why, but I always picture the fists as gold in my mind, even though they aren't.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:
Every army has a gun like that. The hell are you talking about.
Orks don't, Eldar have but less powerfull and on medium range, Tyranids have teeth's, Dark Eldar have Dark Lances ( range but lack the power ), Necrons have powerful guns but lack range...
Tau have the biggest range of all races ( in fluff ), Their Railguns can tear Titan in few shots ( Taros ). And not to mention that they have that guns now in small infantry scale ( pathfinders ). If Tau are overpowered it is in their firepower, and their battlesuits carry a both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons, and they rarely miss.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Their culture is more similar to that of soviet russia's. The Imperium of Man has giant battlesuits (dreads, knights, terminators, titans, legio cybernetica), high technology, looks MUCH stranger than tau and have Imperators, which are overpowered.
That kinda backfired for you, didn't it?
Though I do admit their models are anime-inspired, even if their fluff isn't.
The good example of culture orientation is music.
Imperium sound more like epic, European empire then anime culture. And their battlesuits don't look like anime at all while Tau does.
On the other hand Tau sound just like Far-East ( they remind me of Japan ).
Tau are in fact mix of communism, far east anime and Japan's techological mastery.
Orks don't, Eldar have but less powerfull and on medium range, Tyranids have teeth's, Dark Eldar have Dark Lances ( range but lack the power ), Necrons have powerful guns but lack range...
Tau have the biggest range of all races ( in fluff ), Their Railguns can tear Titan in few shots ( Taros ). And not to mention that they have that guns now in small infantry scale ( pathfinders ). If Tau are overpowered it is in their firepower, and their battlesuits carry a both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons, and they rarely miss.
Wait what? You seem to be comparing fluff to gameplay, and back to fluff....which doesn't work in the slightest.
In gameplay, Guard have the longest range (hard to beat infinite, but 240" is quite high up there too). In fluff, guard probably have the longest range (still hard to beat a basilisk). In Dawn of War, guard have the longest range (STILL hard to beat a basilisk).
Necrons have guns that can one-shot imperial battleships from the ground
5 miles is not a problem ;0)
Nids have ranged nasties. The most recent iteration of the walking artillery piece is the Tyrannofex, but they have more than just teeth-laden space-dinosaurs
Eldar have some extremely ugly long-ranged stuff too. You don't generally get to see it on the table, but it does exist in the fluff. Some of their superheavies/titans have some extremely ugly guns.
Orks do have long ranged guns (on the tabeltop and in the fluff). They generally prefer to be at krumping range, but lootas and SAG (from the regular codex stuff) have a decently long range. Fluffwise they have reduced fortresses to rubble from space before, so they CAN make long ranged weapons
That all stands but fluff wise: Tau are known for having one of the most powerful ranged weapons ( Railgun ) in very high concentration and with very long ranges. It is not told without reason "If you want a range army - go Tau".
For annoy army I just quoted one funny but very true sentence: "Technologically advanced space communists capable of picking them off like flies a mile away".
For the Grater Good. Let all races of the galaxy be united and equal among themselves. All are welcome, free food for all, free shelter for all, free protection for all - in the name of the Grater Good!!!
KilroyKiljoy wrote:
Every army has a gun like that. The hell are you talking about.
Orks don't, Eldar have but less powerfull and on medium range, Tyranids have teeth's, Dark Eldar have Dark Lances ( range but lack the power ), Necrons have powerful guns but lack range...
Tau have the biggest range of all races ( in fluff ), Their Railguns can tear Titan in few shots ( Taros ). And not to mention that they have that guns now in small infantry scale ( pathfinders ). If Tau are overpowered it is in their firepower, and their battlesuits carry a both anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons, and they rarely miss.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Their culture is more similar to that of soviet russia's. The Imperium of Man has giant battlesuits (dreads, knights, terminators, titans, legio cybernetica), high technology, looks MUCH stranger than tau and have Imperators, which are overpowered.
That kinda backfired for you, didn't it?
Though I do admit their models are anime-inspired, even if their fluff isn't.
The good example of culture orientation is music.
Imperium sound more like epic, European empire then anime culture. And their battlesuits don't look like anime at all while Tau does.
On the other hand Tau sound just like Far-East ( they remind me of Japan ).
Tau are in fact mix of communism, far east anime and Japan's techological mastery.
It doesn't matter what their battlesuits look like. I already said the models are anime-ish. Fluff wise, there is no difference with the battlesuits.
And really? You're basing it on music? Plus the only asian-y part of that music was the pan flute, which is found in many other cultures too. Plus the song has nothing to do with fluff, which we're discussing.
And to be fair, in every area outside of robotics, american tech is more advanced than Japan's. They have lasers, railguns and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAHEM (it flies into the air, releases molten metal which then solidifies into a guided metal shaft and is to be used as a bunker buster [bunker stabber?])
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Coolyo294 wrote:
I lol'd so hard.
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Void__Dragon wrote:Tau aren't communists.
Their government more resembles an Indian caste system.
Oh look, somebody who thinks he knows something about Japan.
How about you actually name some specific similarities between the Tau culture and the Japanese culture?
Brother Coa wrote:Japanese like culture, Imperium sound more like epic, European empire then anime culture. And their battlesuits don't look like anime at all while Tau does.
Which anime? I've noticed that people seem hesitant to mention what anime robots the Tau battlseuits resemble.
I still think Games Workshop ripped off Shockwave and painted him tan.
Brother Coa wrote:On the other hand Tau sound just like Far-East ( they remind me of Japan ).
Tau are in fact mix of communism, far east anime and Japan's techological mastery.
Japan doesn't have "technological mastery," nor do the Tau. The Tau aren't wizards, they're just far more willing to innovate than the Adeptus Mechanicus and far more willing to distribute technologies into other purposes. The Tau technology is actually worse than Imperium tech in some of the most important areas.
Also, how the hell are the Tau overpowered in the fluff? The entire point of their fluff is that they're underpowered.
How about you actually name some specific similarities between the Tau culture and the Japanese culture?
Not really cultural, but the flat, rectangular armor seen on battlesuits and fire warriors (legs and shoulders) resembles samurai armor.
That's really the only major connection I can see, but I don't see why that can be thought of as a problem (unless you hate the Japanese, but I'm not going to bother with that).
clively wrote:... except for the fact that the Necrontyr have nothing to fear from the Tyranids. 'Nids need biomass, Necrontyr are... metal robots. Not exactly good feeding unless you need a lot of iron in your diet. Which gets rid of the primary purpose of a Nid: Eat and Grow.
Then, of course, you have the Necron weapons which tear apart an enemies atoms. Doesn't exactly leave a whole lot for the little critters to scoop back up if they do happen to win.
Except the Tyranids want the planet, not the population. If there's something they can use on the planet, they'll strip it. Everyhing. Soil, gases, liquids, anything they can use. They also get far, far, far more from the entire biosphere than the sentient population inhabiting the planet. What they get from that is genetic templates to manipulate.
clively wrote:Hence the reason why Tyranid Hive fleets avoid planets with Necrons on them. Even if the poor little buggers manage to win... they lose: No biomass left to harvest.
Can you actually point me to this fluff? The only fluff I've seenis them avoiding one area, which is also the suspected location of the Outsiders Dyson Sphere, which is something no race would want to approach.
clively wrote:2. Barring that, the Nids would never have engaged the Necrons.
If they were on the planet, and opposed the Tyranids, they'd attack them. Again, it's the planet they want, not the population inhabiting it.
-Loki- wrote:Can you actually point me to this fluff? The only fluff I've seenis them avoiding one area, which is also the suspected location of the Outsiders Dyson Sphere, which is something no race would want to approach.
Page 11 of the current Tyranid codex for one, has them making major alterations to avoid a Tomb World.
It's also mentioned in the Necron codex, Tyranids avoiding Tomb Worlds.
You have to remember, Tomb Worlds also tend to be completely dead, lacking even bacterium. The Necrons are not a fun opponent for Tyranids, because they can't use them to replenish biomass, and the Necrons disallow them to use their dead as well.
Though I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for a Tyranid fleet, if the Hive Mind was confident in it, to attack a Tomb World for whatever reason.
They've done it twice, once when Blood Angels were fighting them, another where Tau just happened to inhabit the Tomb World.
So if the World has something the Hive Mind wants, it would attack it, but Tomb Worlds usually don't, I guess.
Ail-Shan wrote:Not really cultural, but the flat, rectangular armor seen on battlesuits and fire warriors (legs and shoulders) resembles samurai armor.
That's really the only major connection I can see, but I don't see why that can be thought of as a problem (unless you hate the Japanese, but I'm not going to bother with that).
That's a neat aesthetic note. I never really noticed it, but that is pretty cool. I always thought the leg plates would work better against long-range threats than close-range threats (Unlike full body plate mail), so that would definitely fit the Tau style of combat.
That makes me want to make an Ork army with scavenged Tau plates bolted on their leg/shoulder armor, and Black Orc helmets with menpo masks. The Samurorks long fought for their Boss, Shugun Sengorku, each Samurork protecting (And krumping) a squad of his own... Too bad I lack modeling skill.
im2randomghgh wrote:
It doesn't matter what their battlesuits look like. I already said the models are anime-ish. Fluff wise, there is no difference with the battlesuits.
It matters.
And really? You're basing it on music? Plus the only asian-y part of that music was the pan flute, which is found in many other cultures too. Plus the song has nothing to do with fluff, which we're discussing.
If you read my post you would see that I have said: "Every large Earth cuture has a unique music to itself". Tau theme sound like having China or Japan origin to me, unless you are suggesting that it's Canadian in origin
And to be fair, in every area outside of robotics, american tech is more advanced than Japan's. They have lasers, railguns and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAHEM (it flies into the air, releases molten metal which then solidifies into a guided metal shaft and is to be used as a bunker buster [bunker stabber?])
We all know that technologically Japan is the most advanced nation on Earth ( just see super fast magnetic trains, walking, talking, emotional robots, advanced computers...), just because US has few better gadgets doesn't mean that they are technologically ahead of America.
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Molten Butter wrote:
How about you actually name some specific similarities between the Tau culture and the Japanese culture?
Fire Warrior training and combat doctrines = Samurai ( even their cc swords are like katanas ).
Advanced technology and having a sense for it and also wanting to develop more.
Very strong ideological people.
Some things are done in Japanese Manga style.
Which anime? I've noticed that people seem hesitant to mention what anime robots the Tau battlseuits resemble.
I still think Games Workshop ripped off Shockwave and painted him tan.
Not a specific anime, but everybody first saw big robots and battle-suits in Japanese cartoons. And their obsessions with robots point to that.
Also, the way that battle-suits are done ( lines, weapon looks, even colors ) they look like they get out of some Japanese futuristic cartoon then from any other sci-fi book.
Also, how the hell are the Tau overpowered in the fluff? The entire point of their fluff is that they're underpowered.
They are overpowered in sense of ranged weapons. For a small galactic race with only slightly over 100 worlds they survived Imperium invasion, even conquer several worlds ( of course they now hold only 1 or 2 systems from initional several ), Tyranid invasion... And they have guns that makes even Necron weapons weak in comparison ( shooting a Guardsman from several km away and blowing him up in a single shot ).
But to sum up Tau:
Ideology = Communism
Society = Indian caste system
War doctrines and looks = Japanese
Culture = Japanese
Brother Coa wrote:Fire Warrior training and combat doctrines = Samurai ( even their cc swords are like katanas ).
Advanced technology and having a sense for it and also wanting to develop more.
Very strong ideological people.
Some things are done in Japanese Manga style.
Whoa, wait what? Samurai pile out of Devilfish and blast the enemy from range? I thought Samurai rode on horses and impaled each other on spears and swords. The kind of thing Tau consider barbaric and crude.
Do we even know what the Fire Warrior training doctrine is like? Much less, is it even comparable to a Samurai?
And if I recall, the Fire Warrior bonding knife just looks like a general combat utility knife, and certainly nothing like a katana. Not even Farsight's Dawnblade is anything reminiscent of East Asian design...
Sorry, but the comments you make regarding the Tau and how similar they are to Japanese culture is largely one giant sweeping generalisation, and is somewhat culturally insensitive. If they give you the 'feel' or 'impression' of something Japanese inspired, that's cool, but I wouldnt label a fictional race that draws inspiration from various sources as being flat out 'Japanese', especially when you seem to be drawing on stereotypical inferences of both modern and traditional Japan.
Brother Coa wrote:Ideology = Communism
Society = Indian caste system
War doctrines and looks = Japanese
Culture = Japanese
As for ideology, they seem to be more of a meritocracy than communistic. They award members of specific castes completely on their contributions (and thus, their Merit) to the Great Good.
As for the societal caste system, this is probably one instance where I would agree with you that the Tau are similar to feudal Japanese structure. Back in those days, there were distinct lines drawn between the warrior caste, the merchant caste, the farmer caste and so on.
And yeah, Im still really confused about what part of Tau war doctrine is 'Japanese'. Could you provide an example of what you mean?
Nothing about the tau war doctrine is japanese. The tau have a very amarican outlook on war and weapons. It starts with there love of jets and air power. Then how they treat there weapons. For a samurai, there sword is a part of them. For the tau, there pulse rifle is a tool that they could easy discard for any other weapon. (That's also an American concept.)
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