Warhammer: Vampire Counts 96pp Full Colour Army Book ($41.25)
WBM: Vampire Counts 7 Large Format Spell Cards ($4.95)
Vampire Counts Coven Throne / Mortis Engine Plastic Box ($57.75)
Vampire Counts Black Knights / Hexwraiths 5 Fig PlasticBox ($29.75)
Vampire Counts Vargheists / Crypt Horrors 3 Fig Plastic Box ($47.00)
Vampire Counts Wight King 1 Plastic Fig Clampack ($13.25)
Isabella Von Carstein 1 Finecast Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Krell, Lord of Undeath 1 Finecast Fig Clampack ($18.25)
Winged Vampire Lord 1 Finecast Fig Clampack ($22.25)
Von Carstein Upgrade Pack 13 Piece Finecast Clamback ($19.75)
Finecast Recasts:
Coffin Lid Shields 8 Piece Pack ($13.25)
Heinrich Kemmler 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Mannfred The Acolyte 1 Fig Clampack ($18.25)
Mounted Vampire Lord 1 Fig Clampack ($25.50)
Vampire Counts Bat Swarm 2 Base Clampack ($24.75)
Vampire Counts Black Coach 1 Fig Box ($53.75)
Vampire Counts Fell Bats 3 Fig Box ($49.50)
Vampire Counts Mounted Wight King 1 Fig Clampack ($25.50)
Vampire Counts Necromancer with Skull 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Vampire Counts Necromancer with Staff 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Vampire Counts Necromancer with Sword 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Vampire Counts Spirit Host 1 Base Clampack ($18.25)
Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror 1 Fig Box ($49.50)
Wight King Battle Standard Bearer 1 Fig Clampack ($18.25)
Repackaged Batallion (20 skeletons, 20 ghouls, 10 Dire Woves, 1 corpse cart, $115.00) on 18th February
Pictures:
Huan Qu'itt on Warseer collected some VC rumours hidden in the Empire and other threads. It's not much, but it's a start for a possible January release:
On release date:
Harry wrote:I said : I had VC, Empire and Dwarves in the frame.
ihavetoomuchminis wrote:And VC come in January. Believe it or not.
75hastings69 wrote:The WDVC article should be viewed as a stop gap between books, terrorgheist will be in proper print much quicker than some people may imagine
On Krell:
75hastings69 wrote:Wait till you see the other new vc stuff new krell anyone?
On flesh golems and plastic black coach:
Harry wrote:Yeah but you wouldn't say no to a plastic black coach and some flesh Golems would you.
Ah yes, I think Hastings mentioned the Flesh Golems.
I am quite exited about a new VC book
He did. The concept art for them is very cool. Half way between a big zombie and a ghoul with lots of stitching,
Note : The existence of concept art does not a mini make.
ps: Flesh Golems sound daft....
In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.
Mirbeau wrote:Not Harry but... rotters, the lot of them. Well, with an exception.
ihavetoomuchminis wrote:About the Monstruous infantry unit, i've been told that they are more of Big ghouls than big zombies. Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller? Don't know, just guessing.
I've realized that Maelstrom no longer has the VC battalion. Don't know if it's just a mistake, or a clue.
On Black Knights:
Bramgaunt wrote:One of my people mentioned that Black Knights would be 'held back' for a major release. My response was 'that's gonna take some time, I guess?', and he said 'you might be wrong.' That was back in July. He also mentioned a plastic set for undead/chaos trolls.
Okay, now I have a thread to link to from my rumour roundup
Edit 25th December: Pics posted by ZAlpha over at Warseer:
ZAlpha wrote:Lore of the Vampires
Signature Spell is definitely Invocation of Nehek - on the most fundamental level it can restore "D6 + caster's Wizard level" of Wounds to friendly Undead unit within 6". Boosted version has 12" range, as well as 18" ones.
Other spells includes Raise Dead, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, Curse of Years, Gaze of Nagash, and Wind of Death
Lore attribute: When the spell from the Lore of the Vampires is succefully casted, the wizard or any undead models within 12" restores 1 wound.
Rules tidbits:
All Vampire has rule called "Hunger" - You get to roll a D6 when the vampire kills one or more models in combat, on a 6 you recovers one wound. (Vlad with Blood Drinker pass the roll on 4+)
Also Vampire, including vampiric creatures "such as" Varghulf and Vargheist, can march. So Vargheist will be able to move 20" per turn almost all the time. (not sure if Varghulf can also fly)
Vampiric Powers: (not all of them, just those mentioned in WD)
Flying Horror - give the vampire ability to fly (unsure)
Dread Knight - ability to boost WS (don't know how - but a Vampire Llord with Dread Knight has WS of 9)
Quickblood - gains ASF Master of the Black Arts - get to re-roll one D6 for the Winds of Magic.
Dark Acolyte - add D3 to the total number of models raised by Nehek.
Red Fury - should be about the same. (unsure)
New units:
Coven Throne
- Basically a chariot mount for your Lord.
- Is a Large target with S5 T5 5W and 5+ save.
- has Spectral Steed rules (can move 8"), Undead, Vampiric, ASF (only for Handmaiden who has 2 S5 Attacks)
- has Random Attacks (2D6) at S3 from the spirit horde.
- Has Ward Save of 4+
- Battle of Wills (before the first enemy rolls to hit against the character or the Throne, both player roll a D6 and add their LD value. Has effects based on the difference of the score)
* no effect (0 or less)
* suffer -1WS/BS * the enemy must re-roll successful To Hits
* each model in the enemy unit strike each other (only 1 attack per model)
- Has Bound Spell (lvl3) allowing the Throne (and all of its crew) to re-roll either To Hit or To Wound rolls.
Mortis Engine
- Is a Rare Choice
- Same stats as for the Throne (S5 T5 W5 Sv5+)
- has 2D6 attacks at S3 from the spirit horde
- Undead, Terror, Spectral Steed, and Regeneration
- can make Ghostly Howl attack.
- can take upgrade, allowing any wizards casting spell from the Lore of the Vampires to get +2 to their casting attempt. (ANY) miscast wizards rolls twice on the table and have the opponent choose the result)
- The Reliquary (at the start of your turn, roll 2D6 and add the current turn number - until the start of its next turn, all friendly Undead units within this number of range gains +1 bonus to their Regeneration, 6+ if they don't have any, to a maximum of 4+. Also, all enemy units within this range suffers D6 hits at the strength equal to the turn number.
- Also has some penalties if removed from play - by damaging every units within a random range at the strength equal to the current turn number)
Master Necromancer
- New Lord choice (ie. better Necromancer)
- Banshees and Cairn Wraith are now Hero
Hexwraiths (special)
- Fast Cavalry with Ethereal (yes!) that can inflict automatic S5 hits on unit that it moved through.
Vargheist (special)
- Flying Monstrous Infantry that has Fly, Frenzy, and 3A.
Crypt Horrors (special)
- Monstrous Infantry unit with M6 S4 T5 I2 W3 A3, has Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration 5+, and Undead.
I think that's all I've seen in the WD...
BTW, Heinrich Kemmler is back in finecast (and in the book) for sure. But on the original sculpt, no new miniature for him. (at least for now)
Seeing lots of people wondering if the Bloodline is back in the book.
Honestly, I'm not sure as it's not specifically mentioned rule-wise.
Skeletons....should be A LOT cheaper.
(40 Skellies with Full Command for less than 240 points. )
Crypt Ghouls... definitely a bit more expensive.
Zombies... even cheaper than the current one.
Fell Bats... cheaper.
Corpse Cart.... almost the same (but goes Special)
Black Knights.... cheaper.
Spirit Host... cheaper as well.
Varghulf... remains the same.
Dire Wolf....should be exactly the same.
(...)
Unit of 3 (2 Vargheist + 1 Vargoyle) is cheaper than 3 Great Eagles.
(...)
There's one list posted in WD, apparently no Vampire - only Kemmler (as Lord), Krell, and two Cairn Wraith.
Looking from the text in WD, I suppose...yes you can field a no-Vampire army. This is what the text says:
White Dwarf wrote:".....Master Necromancer allow players to field a high-level wizard without having to rely on a Vampire Lord to do so. In fact, they are perfectly capable of leading an Undead army on their own...."
You don't expect Ethereal Fast Cavalry to be that cheap, don't you?
Based on the demo list posted in WD, I think they may be almost as expensive as Dragon Princes of Caledor.
-Loki- wrote:Necromancers can take an upgrade called Master of the Dead. The only way to add models to a Skeleton unit raised with Raise Dead is with a Necromancer with Master of the Dead. This seems to be the benefit of zombies - if you raise skeletons, you need a Master of the Dead Necromancer to keep adding to the unit.
Ghouls are 10 points. A unit of 40 with a Ghast in one of the sample lists was 410 points.
Banner of the Blood Keep is one of the returning banners, and grants a 4+ ward save to shooting attacks.
There appear to be 3 different vampire types. Vampire lord, Vampire, Strigoi Ghoul King. This is mentioned in the new rules for Vampire Counts pacts for Storm of magic, they specifically name the lord choices you can take, and it is those 3 and Master Necromancer. They don't mention at all what makes a Strigoi Ghoul King different, though it might have something to do with Hatred and Poison, as Phil Kelly pointed out in the GW website Terrorgeist designers notes.
I also may be reading too much into it, but there's some hints towards Ghouls not being able to be reinforced through Invocation of Nehek. Don't quote me on this, it's not outright stated, just whenever they talk about raising models, Ghouls are the only unit not mentioned, as well as in the Lahmian sample list they say 'with 40 models, it ensures there will be enough left when they reach the enemy' or sometihng to that effect.
A Vampire Lord with death knight is WS 9. Looks like Vampire Lords are getting ridiculous stats again.
Master Necromancers can be the general. They specifically state this. It's possible to make an army completely lacking vampires.
They make a subtle mention about 'when the general dies, the army starts to crumble until another powerful character can regain control.' Seems like you can replace the general with a powerful Necromancer or other Vampire caster somehow if the general dies.
Avian wrote:The +2 to cast bonus only works for the Lore of Vampires, not any other Lore. The miscasting affects users of all Lores. In either case, it affects friends or foes within 12" of one or more Engines with the Tomes upgrade.
Over9000 wrote:Oh and direwolves count towards 25% core now
(...)
Seems to be, looking at white dwarf: They have some sample armies which dont add upto 25% unless counting wolves.
(...)
Btw the raise dead spell is now zombies/skels
Do we have any confirmations to point cost of Hexwraiths, or their stats?
30 pts s5 magic flaming
Blood knights are either 50 or 51 pts now
3 vargheists champ upgrade 148
horrors 38
knights 26 full kit
And spectral host? At last are core? How it much?
45pts ^.^ still special tho
Kyte wrote:So far I gather from various international, German and Danish forums that:
Bloodlines won't be back, but similar abilities as 6th ed bloodlines will be available through the new vampyric powers. Different powers will unlock different equipment and mount options.
New wraith cavalry will cause the same inter-forum whine as Ogre Mournfangs did, being essentially mounted one wound wraiths, easily the new power-gamer's unit of choice.
Skeletons will be the same price as the TK variety and have the same options at the same cost, except access to magic banner (varying statements on whether only one unit will be allowed magic banner or not)
Giant ghouls have T5. Otherwise same stats as a Rat Ogre.
One of the spirit-borne-thrones/engines/things gives 2+ to cast to ALL wizards within a range of (varying statements), not just your own wizards (commentary: will probably be a really fun model to both play and play against, as it offers whole new tactical aspects for both players to the game... Going to be a true hit among casual gamers like the Thundertusk, I gather).
Wraith and Banshee move to Hero Choices only.
Ixquic wrote:The Mortis Engine gives +2 to cast from the Lore of Vampires to all casters within 12" so you only have to worry about that working against you when you are playing against another Vampire. The problem is that same upgrade also causes you to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent picks the one that you take. It seems to me that will end up screwing you more than helping unless there's a way to single dice cast reliably in the new book.
Admiral_Wow wrote:GW website is no longer selling:
Vampire count battalion box
Vampire Counts Zacharias on Zombie Dragon
Blood Dragon with Great Weapon, Foot and Mounted
Vampire Counts Necromancer on Nightmare
Vampire Counts Spirit Host
Vampire Counts Black Coach
Vampire Counts Tomb Banshee 3
all items are no longer available.
Kemmler is confirmed to get a Finecast rerelease in January, A Black Coach Finecast recast also this month or later.
Harry wrote:I put in the OP that I had heard that there were 5 new units in the book ....
I guess that is Coven throne, Mortis Engine, Crypt Horrors, Vargheists and Hex wraiths ... so I guess that is your lot!
'Flesh Golem' was something Hastings heard as a rumour ages ago. I remember asking Gav Thorpe about it at the launch of 7th edition. I had also seen some concept art for Flesh Golems so when I heard monsterous infantry I assumed ....
Since VC are a more recent 7th edition book, my guess would be that they were worst hit by 8th edition, and this is a relatively easy fix.
Release the book adjusting some points values with a wave of new models they've had sitting around to get them actually released. The Zombie Dragon, Wraith, Banshee and Necromancer were probably done to see if there was still interest in the army to make this release worthwhile.
I think it's more Gav limited himself too much by focusing on the von Carsteins rather than the full spectrum of Vampire Counts fluff. Strigoi were reduced to a short story and a mention with the Vargulf, Blood Knights reduced to a rare unit, and the rest just in short stories.
He shouldn't have dropped the Bloodlines, basically.
Yeah. Although I like the "powers" section, kind of keeps it open for Vampire choices, if you know what I mean. IMHO I think Von Carsteins make for some boring fluff, though it was cool to see a switch in theme for them. Not being so Bela Lugosi Dracula looking.
:sigh: Despite the fact that I PLAY VC, and despite the fact that I have been playing undead horde VC since 6th ed, and despite the horrific nerf to my style of play, having the VC out next would upset me beyond reason.
Dwarves, WE, and Brets need updates the most. Empire could use one soon too. Let VC wait, says I, despite VC being my first army (and most storied and feared in the local community). WE need serious love. Brets need serious love. Dwarves need... well, moderate love. (their WM are freaking tops this edition, but I am not looking forward to the loss of Runes, which I expect given the simplification of everyone else's Magic Items section...)
I suppose I could ALLOW VC if they came before Empire (whom I do not play: I mean, better an update for an army you play, right?) but I'd rather see them out after Brets or WE. But I mean, hey. Best to rerelease all the 7e army books first, just to make sure they are caught up before the 6e ones, right? Then of course, there will be 9th edition... :sigh:
-Loki- wrote:I think it's more Gav limited himself too much by focusing on the von Carsteins rather than the full spectrum of Vampire Counts fluff. Strigoi were reduced to a short story and a mention with the Vargulf, Blood Knights reduced to a rare unit, and the rest just in short stories.
He shouldn't have dropped the Bloodlines, basically.
-Loki- wrote:I think it's more Gav limited himself too much by focusing on the von Carsteins rather than the full spectrum of Vampire Counts fluff. Strigoi were reduced to a short story and a mention with the Vargulf, Blood Knights reduced to a rare unit, and the rest just in short stories.
He shouldn't have dropped the Bloodlines, basically.
Kinda like what he did with 40K Chaos, right?
Keep beating that horse, HBMC. It ain't dead yet!
In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.
Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.
No arguments there. When I look at Alessios 6th edition book and Gavs 7th edition book, Alessios is a mess. He unfortunately spent too much time on the Bloodlines, and not much on the list itself. However, a balance between the two would have been nice compared to Warhammer Armies Von Carsteins.
I didn't really mind "armies Von Carsteins" considering the fact that it was possible to make a close representation of the previous lists using the Powers and the unit entries themselves.
You want a Strigoi army?
Vampires with the "Ghoulkin", "Summon Ghouls" and "Summon Beasts" powers.
Take a large amount of Ghouls, large amount of Dire Wolves and the various Bats, and for rare slots use the Varghulf.
Wabam. That's a fantastically thematic Strigoi army there, all things considered. You'll be light on Magic, but Strigoi were anyways. Of course, now you can also take a Terrorgheist which is kinda nice.
Blood Dragons aren't too hard to do either. Focus on Skeleton Warriors, take a large amount of Black Knights and/or Grave Guard(Depending on if you want them to be a "Bretonnian Dragon" or not), and have your rare slots filled with Blood Knights. You can add in a few Necromancers, as Blood Dragons seemed to be less about the "Necromancers are dumb!" and more about the "I prefer to have my own undead servants, but why shouldn't I assemble a host of followers?" school of thought.
Lahmia would be hard to do, but that has everything to do with their ridiculous ability to take heroes from every other book out there.
Necrarchs wouldn't be hard to do, as they're simply magic heavy Vampires with cadres of Necromancer apprentices. Have lots of Zombies and lots of Skeletons, et voila!
The big thing I hope that they do is bring in Skeleton Bowmen or some kind of archer unit. Shooting is something I think they're missing, and would be an 'easy remedy' for some parts.
I mostly want to see Zombies and Skeletons become worth taking. Ghouls are great, but they're not undead, and certainly don't fit my army theme, being Lahmians.
Zombies don't fit completely either, but the short story about Neferata mentions her using them as guards, so I use them anyway. But Ghouls are a no go for me.
-Loki- wrote:I mostly want to see Zombies and Skeletons become worth taking. Ghouls are great, but they're not undead, and certainly don't fit my army theme, being Lahmians.
Zombies don't fit completely either, but the short story about Neferata mentions her using them as guards, so I use them anyway. But Ghouls are a no go for me.
Well with the TK book to compare, I bet the skeles will be 4 points naked and Zombies will either be 2 or 3 points
kenshin620 wrote:I dont know about archer skeles, its a defining feature for TK
No, it's really not. Chariots, constructs such as the Ushtabi, and the ability to cast magic without really casting magic are "defining features of Tomb Kings".
Archers aren't nearly as "defining" as you think they are.
It would also be interesting to see what other SC get in
Throwing out a few wild guesses...
The Red Duke, Master of Shadows, and lastly Heinrich Kemmler with his best friend forever Krell.
-Loki- wrote:I mostly want to see Zombies and Skeletons become worth taking. Ghouls are great, but they're not undead, and certainly don't fit my army theme, being Lahmians.
Zombies don't fit completely either, but the short story about Neferata mentions her using them as guards, so I use them anyway. But Ghouls are a no go for me.
Well with the TK book to compare, I bet the skeles will be 4 points naked and Zombies will either be 2 or 3 points
I'd rather see zombies get a little tougher rather than just cheaper so they can more effectively tarpit without dying by the dozen every turn. I know they're meant to be a horde, but the amount you need in a unit right now to tarpit something is frankly ridiculous.
Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.
No, he catches the right amount of flak. Just because a book has "too many options" does not make the solution "too few options" a good idea.
Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.
No, he catches the right amount of flak. Just because a book has "too many options" does not make the solution "too few options" a good idea.
I didn't say "too few options" is a good idea, but it's not like the book was really that broken prior to this most recent edition. It's only when Ghouls suddenly became so incredibly worth their points that you really see the "too few options" argument coming up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should also like to add: Page 79 of Alessio's Vampire Counts army book. Right there, in black and white, under the Blood Dragons army list:
Skeleton Bowmen.
I tried to take it to PM's, but the Kan just doesn't get it folks. He even tried to argue that only WAAC players liked the old Codex. I mean honestly...
Generic arguments like 'just use counts as' and 'Iron Warriors were too powerful' in no way excuse or justify what was done to the Chaos Codex, and the same applies to the gutted VC list.
Kanluwen wrote:I should also like to add: Page 79 of Alessio's Vampire Counts army book. Right there, in black and white, under the Blood Dragons army list:
Skeleton Bowmen.
In the old book you could also take a hero from any army book as a lahmian thrall. It was pretty cool.
Kanluwen wrote:I should also like to add: Page 79 of Alessio's Vampire Counts army book. Right there, in black and white, under the Blood Dragons army list:
Skeleton Bowmen.
In the old book you could also take a hero from any army book as a lahmian thrall. It was pretty cool.
The Swains, you mean?
Yeah. They were neat, but if you weren't up to date on the lists people would try to sneak some crazy crap in.
I do want Skeleton Bowmen though. Quite a bit. It has always seemed a tad silly to me that somehow the Tomb Kings' minions can remember how to fire a bow, but the Vampires' minions can't.
VC need a complete revamp for the Undead rules especially if they want to make it different than TK.
The whole unstable rule need tweaking or have points adjusted accordingly.
Well a fluff reason for Tomb Kings having bowmen and VC not would be that Tomb Kings forces are as they were in life, but reanimated. So if that king had bowmen, he now has skeleton bowmen.
For VC, skeleton units, like zombie units, are whatever happened to be in the ground when the vampire decided it wanted an army. There might well be bowmen in there, but they're not going to form into specialised groups.
Fluff aside, it's somethig that could make VC core choices a bit more interesting. Being able to have bunkers of bowmen would certainly be more appealing for caster lords, since the bowmen would be able to do something while acting like a backline bunker.
ph34r wrote:It's likely because the VC are based largely near the empire, who do not employ archers nearly as much as the khemrians.
Not "near" the Empire, within the Empire. Sylvania and its surrounding environs are within the province of Stirland, and bordered by Averland, The Moot, and Ostermark.
I would agree with you a bit about the Empire...if the dang Vampires weren't smack dab in the middle of Stirland, which has the claim to fame of being one of the more poor provinces with rustic customs and simple weaponry. The "Uniforms and Heraldry" book even goes so far as to mention that the province is famed for its Huntsmen and Archers, with the 'signature' unit of the province being a unit of scouts known as the "Deathjacks".
Heck, it's also worth mentioning that many of the Blood Dragon lineage go out of their way to try to make the more 'regimented' armies of Wights, Skeletons, and Zombies into grotesque mockeries of Bretonni or Empire formations.
Can you imagine Wights with detachments of Zombies and Skeletons? Fun!
Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.
Gave Thorpe changed my life by allowing me to shelve my Tyranids, then my Word Bearers and finally 40K entirely. He should be recognized as the greatest writer of game rules and Science Fiction ever to live, much as Coleman Francis is to film and Florence Foster Jenkins is to opera.
I am indifferent to the new VC book, I just hope they playtest it with someone besides the case of pork and beans and cardboard cutouts of Tom Selleck and Edward James Olmos they have been using for the past few years.
ph34r wrote:It's likely because the VC are based largely near the empire, who do not employ archers nearly as much as the khemrians.
Not "near" the Empire, within the Empire. Sylvania and its surrounding environs are within the province of Stirland, and bordered by Averland, The Moot, and Ostermark.
I would agree with you a bit about the Empire...if the dang Vampires weren't smack dab in the middle of Stirland, which has the claim to fame of being one of the more poor provinces with rustic customs and simple weaponry. The "Uniforms and Heraldry" book even goes so far as to mention that the province is famed for its Huntsmen and Archers, with the 'signature' unit of the province being a unit of scouts known as the "Deathjacks".
Heck, it's also worth mentioning that many of the Blood Dragon lineage go out of their way to try to make the more 'regimented' armies of Wights, Skeletons, and Zombies into grotesque mockeries of Bretonni or Empire formations.
Can you imagine Wights with detachments of Zombies and Skeletons? Fun!
I say near because not all VC are actually within the empire.
Blood Dragons being able to take undead peasant bowmen would indeed be cool. Blood Dragons getting rules at all beyond a few powers and a rare unit would be mega cool.
ph34r wrote:
Blood Dragons being able to take undead peasant bowmen would indeed be cool. Blood Dragons getting rules at all beyond a few powers and a rare unit would be mega cool.
To be fair, Blood Dragons mostly had one 'special rule' which was that they could take the Lance formation for their Black Knights, losing access to the Dogs of War.
I think the 'best fit' for Blood Dragons would be the ability to take Grave Guard(or if the general is mounted, Black Knights) as Core choices with Skeleton 'detachments' and Zombies.
One part that kinda bugs me about the current VC book is the way Zombies are handled.
As it stands: they're kind of expensive, and they're best done as a summoned unit. But somehow, you cannot get Musicians or Standard Bearers for those summoned units of course.
ph34r wrote:
Blood Dragons being able to take undead peasant bowmen would indeed be cool. Blood Dragons getting rules at all beyond a few powers and a rare unit would be mega cool.
To be fair, Blood Dragons mostly had one 'special rule' which was that they could take the Lance formation for their Black Knights, losing access to the Dogs of War.
I think the 'best fit' for Blood Dragons would be the ability to take Grave Guard(or if the general is mounted, Black Knights) as Core choices with Skeleton 'detachments' and Zombies.
One part that kinda bugs me about the current VC book is the way Zombies are handled.
As it stands: they're kind of expensive, and they're best done as a summoned unit. But somehow, you cannot get Musicians or Standard Bearers for those summoned units of course.
Grave Guard with detachments would be awesome. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.
HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Kanluwen wrote:But somehow, you cannot get Musicians or Standard Bearers for those summoned units of course.
I'm guessing that would be because the Vampire/Necromancer isn't that interested in micro-managing the summoning on the battlefield - more of general call-to-arms Raise Dead than a "Right, I need to remember to raise that body with the French Horn, and the gentleman with the slightly blood-stained Empire banner, and...." thought process.
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
One word: Steadfast
That's not so much a problem of the 6th ed list as a problem of steadfast + nerfing fear into the ground making all old VC tactics invalid.
-Loki- wrote:Lahmians being able to take thralls of any kind again would be super mega cool.
Don't even bother with making you have another book. Have a very customiseable non-undead character available to Lahmians.
Used to make for some great fun lists - I enjoyed making up back stories for who and why the various people were with my Vampire Ladies. A new swains rule could work well given the recent move towards using lots of different things in army lists in Storm of Magic. You could easily have a human Hero Swain template.
Could even bring back human Militia as in Storm of Chaos - Skeleton Archers fits with a number of the bloodlines - Blood Dragons who often have Bretonian or Empire Heritage for instance.
I even made a new list up so I could use them bit indulgant but there you go......
GW seems to be leaning towards the model of some of the more recent game systems with the "Balance shall come from the fact that everyone has the same things!" school of game design?
Alpharius wrote:GW seems to be leaning towards the model of some of the more recent game systems with the "Balance shall come from the fact that everyone has the same things!" school of game design?
Quite - I'd prefer the different armies to be differentiated rather more than that
Alpharius wrote:GW seems to be leaning towards the model of some of the more recent game systems with the "Balance shall come from the fact that everyone has the same things!" school of game design?
Alpharius wrote:GW seems to be leaning towards the model of some of the more recent game systems with the "Balance shall come from the fact that everyone has the same things!" school of game design?
Is that really a problem though?
Yes
To elaborate, it removes the tactical constraints from armies as well as part of their character. You may as well play chess.
Alpharius wrote:GW seems to be leaning towards the model of some of the more recent game systems with the "Balance shall come from the fact that everyone has the same things!" school of game design?
Is that really a problem though?
Yes
To elaborate, it removes the tactical constraints from armies as well as their character. You may as well play chess.
By simply having the same model types available to each army? I don't see how simply having the options there mean that "it removes the tactical constraints from armies".
Mind you, I'm saying that there's no issue with things such as Monstrous Creatures/Cavalry being available for most armies.
It's when they become "no-brainer" options all the way across every single army that you will see the big problem, as them simply being "optional" would not be that big of a deal.
Is one races cavalry the same as anothers - likely not, you can give all armies a good basic selction of troops which can still operate in different ways, appear differently and give different tactical options - IMO of course.
I'd rather have lots of interesting options than a few that mean all of X races armies play basically the same way. Most races are large enough that there can be radically different styles of army within the basic list - so a Blood Dragons force is going to be very different to a Strigori force but still retain a Vampirirc character.
You can I feell can add Skeleton bowmen, monsterous Zombie creations, living militia and swains to the list without disrupting the essential character......
The Throne of Chaos book mentions Bloodline Powers in the rules section, so it'd be reasonable to assume that they'll be coming back- presumably fairly soon.
No- in the Scenarios section it says something about a restriction on magic items but not other character upgrade options, "such as Vampire Counts Bloodline powers".
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Well, for starters, Necromancer Armies. It'd sort of be like an O&G book stating "An Orc must be your general."
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Well, for starters, Necromancer Armies. It'd sort of be like an O&G book stating "An Orc must be your general."
It's "Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts", not "Warhammer Armies: Undead".
Alpharius wrote:GW seems to be leaning towards the model of some of the more recent game systems with the "Balance shall come from the fact that everyone has the same things!" school of game design?
Is that really a problem though?
Yes
To elaborate, it removes the tactical constraints from armies as well as their character. You may as well play chess.
By simply having the same model types available to each army? I don't see how simply having the options there mean that "it removes the tactical constraints from armies".
Mind you, I'm saying that there's no issue with things such as Monstrous Creatures/Cavalry being available for most armies.
It's when they become "no-brainer" options all the way across every single army that you will see the big problem, as them simply being "optional" would not be that big of a deal.
Please see Epic: 40,000 for an example of what happens.
12thRonin wrote:
Please see Epic: 40,000 for an example of what happens.
Or you can explain it, rather than forcing people to dig through looking an entire game system for an oblique reference being made as an attempt at a witty commentary.
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Well, for starters, Necromancer Armies. It'd sort of be like an O&G book stating "An Orc must be your general."
It's "Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts", not "Warhammer Armies: Undead".
Oh, alright then. I'm glad it at least gives focus then on Blood Dragons, Lahmians, and... oh, wait.
In before, by the way, you either counter with "counts as" or "well they're a part of Vampire Counts" which then begs the question what Necromancers are.
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Well, for starters, Necromancer Armies. It'd sort of be like an O&G book stating "An Orc must be your general."
It's "Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts", not "Warhammer Armies: Undead".
Oh, alright then. I'm glad it at least gives focus then on Blood Dragons, Lahmians, and... oh, wait.
It sure didn't completely remove them, as you seem to believe. Many of the abilities that made a Vampire Strigoi, Lahmian, Von Carstein, or Blood Dragon is still available in the form of the Vampiric Powers.
In before, by the way, you either counter with "counts as" or "well they're a part of Vampire Counts"
I'd suggest you open up your Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts and turn to page 82.
Have you done that? Yes? Okay, good!
Now you see this gorgeous two page layout? It's a streamlined version of the four Bloodlines, but open to anyone and everyone.
Crazy right?
which then begs the question what Necromancers are.
Servants of the Vampires, mostly. The book does a good job detailing their relationship of bartering servitude for power.
Oh, sorry to double post, but as a counter-example: Throgg list in Warriors of Chaos. Doombulls & Bloodgorgers (is that the Hero level?) in Beasts of Chaos. That Vampire Counts have only two non-character Vampire units (three if you include the Black Coach).
Why, then, can't Vampire Counts use Necromancers? You can have a Warriors of Chaos list with 0 Warriors. Or a Beastman list ruled by Mino's. Or a VC list with more Banshees, Wights, and so on than Vampires.
Minsc wrote:Oh, sorry to double post, but as a counter-example: Throgg list in Warriors of Chaos. Doombulls & Bloodgorgers (is that the Hero level?) in Beasts of Chaos. That Vampire Counts have only two non-character Vampire units (three if you include the Black Coach).
Why, then, can't Vampire Counts use Necromancers? You can have a Warriors of Chaos list with 0 Warriors. Or a Beastman list ruled by Mino's. Or a VC list with more Banshees, Wights, and so on than Vampires.
Why can't you?
Because they didn't think of it when they wrote the book, in all likelihood. Considering the fact that a well-reputed rumormonger has stated that Heinrich Kemmler and Krell's models have been redone, I'd be surprised if a Master Necromancer was not in.
Yeah, I kind of miss the Necromancer Lord option, but honestly, the variety of the VC list comes from the different options you can give to your Vampire as your general. In the 6th ed book I was stuck with choosing a bloodline and being pigeon-holed, in the 7th ed book I can make the exact Vampire I want to. So if I want a combo caster/fighter vampire I can do that. And, if I still want to play as a Lahmian, Strigoi, Necrarch, etc, all of the options in the old book are still there. So really I've lost nothing but gained more options!
12thRonin wrote:
Please see Epic: 40,000 for an example of what happens.
Or you can explain it, rather than forcing people to dig through looking an entire game system for an oblique reference being made as an attempt at a witty commentary.
Should have been pretty self explanatory but apparently it's a slow day for you. Same stats, same rules, just different model for alot of the units in the game. Game died horribly as a result since it lost all it's flavor. It's been pretty common knowledge how badly it crashed and killed off the Epic brand as a supported game.
12thRonin wrote:Should have been pretty self explanatory but apparently it's a slow day for you. Same stats, same rules, just different model for alot of the units in the game. Game died horribly as a result since it lost all it's flavor. It's been pretty common knowledge how badly it crashed and killed off the Epic brand as a supported game.
Implying that he said that every army should have cookie-cutter units.
12thRonin wrote:
Please see Epic: 40,000 for an example of what happens.
Or you can explain it, rather than forcing people to dig through looking an entire game system for an oblique reference being made as an attempt at a witty commentary.
Should have been pretty self explanatory but apparently it's a slow day for you.
Yes, that was quite self-explanatory considering you simply said to look at an entire game system, which may not have been all that popular or widespread in many venues(Such as mine, where when my FLGS was not allowed to renew their lease in 2006 still had two fairly large shelves of Epic stuff which is now in the shop owner's storage unit).
Same stats, same rules, just different model for alot of the units in the game. Game died horribly as a result since it lost all it's flavor. It's been pretty common knowledge how badly it crashed and killed off the Epic brand as a supported game.
See? You can explain it!
However, it has nothing to do with what I was saying.
I suggest you reread the post that you replied to.
For convenience's sake here it is:
Kanluwen wrote:By simply having the same model types available to each army? I don't see how simply having the options there mean that "it removes the tactical constraints from armies".
Mind you, I'm saying that there's no issue with things such as Monstrous Creatures/Cavalry being available for most armies.
It's when they become "no-brainer" options all the way across every single army that you will see the big problem, as them simply being "optional" would not be that big of a deal.
Do you see anywhere about every single army having units with the same stats or same rules?
No? Good, because it's not in there unless you're misreading the intent.
What I intended for you and every single person who reads the post to get out of my statement is that there's no reason that armies cannot have these various classes of units.
As specific examples: there's no reason that Vampires should not have some form of a ranged unit, such as a unit of Skeletons armed with bows or crossbows. There's no reason that the Empire cannot have Demigryphon mounted Knights, considering the Imperial Zoo is full of creatures such as that which are well-cared for and brought out for favored servants of the Emperor.
As long as the fluff or the 'feel' of the army can support it--there's no reason not to do it. I doubt we'll see Dwarf cavalry or Dwarfs riding some giant monstrous creature, to give you an example of that one.
I thought the VC book was more to represent undead in and around the empire in general, so rogue wizards using magic to raise the dead as minions wouldn't be VC.
And warhammer armies: undead was awesome. I could have a necromancer themed list with really powerful magic, vampire theme with focus more on magic being a supportive thing and ofcourse the slight nod to TK types involving mummies and liches.
Now unless they decide to really exploit the brain dead and release a third undead book just for necromancers, theres no excuse to have living magic users who raise the dead as choices to lead the undead army in the 8th ed book. Just say since the vampires brought the art to the old world thats why its in the book or something.
The only reason I'm ok with having Master necromancers is that they exist in the fluff. Heinrich Kemmler and that dude on the Manticore come to mind immediately as two necromancers who were as big a threat as any Vampires.
Kanluwen wrote:As long as the fluff or the 'feel' of the army can support it--there's no reason not to do it. I doubt we'll see Dwarf cavalry or Dwarfs riding some giant monstrous creature, to give you an example of that one.
You can tweak the fluff to allow anything. Note how all the monsters in TK are now animated statues rather than bone constructs.
And I really wouldn't bet against Dwarfs getting some kind of steam punk beastie that counts as monstrous infantry/cavalry.
My real point is that not so long ago someone over in the Warhammer forums were asking what the Skaven were like to play. I responded by saying that the Skaven were essentially the evil version of The Empire, with monsters instead of cavalry. And now if rumours are to be believed, Empire will have monstrous cavalry in the form of Demi-griffons (or whatever they're called). Ironically, by adding something to The Empire they are removing both part of the character and part of the challenge of playing that race.
Kanluwen wrote:As long as the fluff or the 'feel' of the army can support it--there's no reason not to do it. I doubt we'll see Dwarf cavalry or Dwarfs riding some giant monstrous creature, to give you an example of that one.
You can tweak the fluff to allow anything. Note how all the monsters in TK are now animated statues rather than bone constructs.
Ushtabi and Scorpions both were essentially animated statue
And I really wouldn't bet against Dwarfs getting some kind of steam punk beastie that counts as monstrous infantry/cavalry.
*insert obligatory "rabble rabble no counts as rabble rabble rabble!" comment*
No problems there. It'd be kinda cool too!
My real point is that not so long ago someone over in the Warhammer forums were asking what the Skaven were like to play. I responded by saying that the Skaven were essentially the evil version of The Empire, with monsters instead of cavalry. And now if rumours are to be believed, Empire will have monstrous cavalry in the form of Demi-griffons (or whatever they're called). Ironically, by adding something to The Empire they are removing both part of the character and part of the challenge of playing that race.
Skaven have monstrous cavalry in their rulebook?
I'm pretty sure they just have monsters, like Dark Elves do.
Ohemgee. Dark Elves have no more character or challenge, Skaven stole it!
I say that sarcastically because if you really think that them adding a monstrous cavalry unit is going to completely remove the flavor of the Empire, we may just have to agree to disagree.
Kanluwen wrote:I say that sarcastically because if you really think that them adding a monstrous cavalry unit is going to completely remove the flavor of the Empire, we may just have to agree to disagree.
Kanluwen wrote:I say that sarcastically because if you really think that them adding a monstrous cavalry unit is going to completely remove the flavor of the Empire, we may just have to agree to disagree.
Lol, yes I think that's where we're at
(Tips hat and goes on his way)
*tips hat*
How about these vampire rumors though? If they release plastic Black Knights, my wallet's getting a hit.
Kanluwen wrote:Might just be a misprint, to be honest. The Vampire Powers are referred to at least once in the current book as "Bloodlines".
Missed this before. Personally, I doubt it- they've had, what, four years to get used to Vampiric Powers? My money's on it being intentional.
Additionally, Bloodborn mentioned that most vampires are of mixed bloodline, so I like to imagine a mix of the old and new systems- one that separates it into bloodlines, but allows you to blend two or three of them.
Good to see that the Kanluwen off-topic spam attack is over. Couldn't find my rumour thread for some time.
Anyway, here two more tidbits.
ihavetoomuchminis wrote:It seems that the Black Coach will be a dual kit.
Frgt/10 wrote:Heard about this a while ago but wasn't sure what to make of it. Seems there might be something to it though:
The next army to go on stock rundown in GW stores is Vampires.
This is before things like Empire which some people have been whispering about as well; so my money would be on the toothy ones being released first.
Flashman wrote:And I really wouldn't bet against Dwarfs getting some kind of steam punk beastie that counts as monstrous infantry/cavalry.
This sort of thing - and the thought of what they might do to Runes during this edition - is why I'm really hoping my Dwarfs don't get touched till 9th Edition, when a bit of sanity might appear in army design once more...
Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, I kind of miss the Necromancer Lord option, but honestly, the variety of the VC list comes from the different options you can give to your Vampire as your general. In the 6th ed book I was stuck with choosing a bloodline and being pigeon-holed, in the 7th ed book I can make the exact Vampire I want to. So if I want a combo caster/fighter vampire I can do that. And, if I still want to play as a Lahmian, Strigoi, Necrarch, etc, all of the options in the old book are still there. So really I've lost nothing but gained more options!
In the 6th ed book, I realized the inferiority of a Necrarch and just ran a Master necromancer with 3 Necromancer underlings to manage the magic phase to my benefit. The 7th ed book would hold up fine in this edition if fear hadn't been murdered. Magic heavy Dansing undead was the road to victory in 6th, and 7th made it more potent. Curious to see if this 8th book makes it better or just eliminates resing completely like they did for TK. Still hoping for a 2-3pt reduction in skeleton cost...
Ozymandias wrote:Yeah, I kind of miss the Necromancer Lord option, but honestly, the variety of the VC list comes from the different options you can give to your Vampire as your general. In the 6th ed book I was stuck with choosing a bloodline and being pigeon-holed, in the 7th ed book I can make the exact Vampire I want to. So if I want a combo caster/fighter vampire I can do that. And, if I still want to play as a Lahmian, Strigoi, Necrarch, etc, all of the options in the old book are still there. So really I've lost nothing but gained more options!
In the 6th ed book, I realized the inferiority of a Necrarch and just ran a Master necromancer with 3 Necromancer underlings to manage the magic phase to my benefit. The 7th ed book would hold up fine in this edition if fear hadn't been murdered. Magic heavy Dansing undead was the road to victory in 6th, and 7th made it more potent. Curious to see if this 8th book makes it better or just eliminates resing completely like they did for TK. Still hoping for a 2-3pt reduction in skeleton cost...
I hope they don't get rid of resurrecting past unit size and creating new units. To me, that's the best difference between Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts. Tomb Kings use their magic to keep their army standing, since it's their army. Vampire Counts just use it to raise as many bodies as possble, since they're just whatever bodies are in the ground at that time.
Plastic Black Coach? Fantastic! A WHFB plastic vehicle kit which does not cost you an arm and a leg (like the steamtank). I hope they allow it to be assembled in a manner generic enough for general use rather than VC-specific.
I also hope they sculpt new horses or at least something other than throwing in those old, old skeleton horses.
If they keep the present way of doing things - the Black Coach will be huge and plastic and also be a kit to make something else equally awesome - looking forward to that.
Plastic Black Knights would be nice - although I already have converted High Elf Cavalry and Chaos Warriors for mine.
Plastic Blacks (Coach and Knights) are pretty much the only things that currently need doing, apart from the Zombies. And the Spirit Hosts. And the Bats.
There's no real "generic" Abyssal Terror. They can be huge bat-like beasts, creatures of Chaos from the mountains, nightmarish creations of Dark Magic, or whatever.
Point is that a "generic" Abyssal Terror might be a bit silly considering they can range from zombified Wyverns and Griffons to Arkhan the Black's chariot which was built around the still-living heart and wings of a Manticore.
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Well, for starters, Necromancer Armies. It'd sort of be like an O&G book stating "An Orc must be your general."
It's "Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts", not "Warhammer Armies: Undead".
There are many of us that would be far happier if they had remained "Warhammer Armies: Undead". I would gladly give up the Vampire general requirement and get my archers back. And before you say Tomb Kings. I played them all through 6th ed. and they never satisfied.
Ozymandias wrote:HBMC: How is the current VC list "gutted" from the 6 ed list? I finally got to play the list 'I' wanted to play, rather than be pigeon holed into a bloodline. Frankly, the 7th ed book is vastly superior to the old one (though I did miss my skirmishing ghouls).
Well, for starters, Necromancer Armies. It'd sort of be like an O&G book stating "An Orc must be your general."
It's "Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts", not "Warhammer Armies: Undead".
There are many of us that would be far happier if they had remained "Warhammer Armies: Undead". I would gladly give up the Vampire general requirement and get my archers back. And before you say Tomb Kings. I played them all through 6th ed. and they never satisfied.
Me neither... 1 unit of 50 archer led by khalida is not the same feel as
archer army of 3x 20 archer led by khalida
I'd be shocked if there was a new Varghulf- the current one looks quite good, imo, and I doubt they'd feel the need to remake it, rather than make new units or address older sculpts.
There's no doubt that the current one looks quite good, but it's very clearly a reminder of the fact that most people would field "just one" when the book first released.
They did a great many things wrong in how they sculpted stuff for the VC's. Mostly making very "generic" unit types be the exception, rather than the norm.
-Varghulf can only be assembled one way, and will look the same unless someone really goes into converting it.
-Blood Knights will look the same, no matter what, if someone uses the actual models.
-There's very few "generic" Vampire characters that were released alongside the book. We had Lady Hookerboots and Lord Wingarm, then we had 2x Mannfreds, Vlad, and Konrad.
I'm not saying they're bad models. Far from it. Lady Hookerboots is a fantastic model, and Vlad oozes character. But there's very little in the way of actual, generic characters. It's a complaint I raised alongside of the Vampire Lord on the Zombie Dragon--there's no way to field a Lord who looks anything like him on foot if his mount gets killed.
-I've already mentioned my one 'issue' with the plastic characters that they released over the summer, which actually fits in with the Vampire models complaint: very little "generic", they all look very set and there's no parts from plastic kits that can be readily cannibalized to make them look specific.
If they really are going to move towards "Monster Counts" as suggested, then I'd be shocked if Varghulf were not able to be fielded in some kind of "Pack" and a plastic double pack with some Bat Swarms or Fell Bats is not released. Worst case scenario, they release a second posed Finecast Varghulf.
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the last VC book released around 4-ish years ago? I was still at my last job, and I've been at my current job for nearly 3.5, so it's probably older than most people think.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the last VC book released around 4-ish years ago? I was still at my last job, and I've been at my current job for nearly 3.5, so it's probably older than most people think.
It was indeed released in 2008, so 4-ish years ago sounds right.
The speculation/justification that is being used for "why are Vampires getting updated so fast?" is one which actually makes sense.
"Fear", which is a mechanic that was a defining feature of VC armies, was heavily nerfed in the new addition. Couple that with the fact that out of an army book swelling with choices, very few are actually taken by the majority of players and it becomes something GW wants rectified.
March 2008. Perhaps it will have been 4 years by the time the book has come out. Compare to Brets, WE, and Dwarves, however, the VC book is a Spring Chicken.
Comparing to Brets and Dwarves however is silly.
A core mechanic of those armies isn't broken.
Wood Elves is really the only book which is in the same boat with a "broken core mechanic" and very few of their choices being taken, but it might simply be that Wood Elves are going to take awhile simply because they have no clue how to make a reliable fix rather than just a bandaid to make it work during this current edition.
In 7e a common argument amongst VC players was Skeletons v Ghouls. The odds came out so evenly on both sides that both were valid choices.
In 8e Ghouls are the clear choice, but so many others are utter crap. The Blood Knights are a clear indication of GW pricing people out of the hobby. With a cost of well more than double what I would have spent (yes, I would have actually tolerated a $50 price tag) they were unbuyable. Since I couldn't buy them, I never played them. (I have WAY too many Black Knights, though...)
In the end it was Fear that (kept the local systems in line) won me the game time and again. Fear and a reliable magic phase.
Kanluwen wrote:The worst thing is, Fear was not the sole advantage that the "Death Star" units had.
It was what won Zombies and Skeletons combats too.
Are you talking about the lack of step up, the front rank only attacks, and the way combat res used to work? Yes. That too.
As I've said before: 4 fixes for a problem when only one was needed.
Fear didn't win the combats for the BK deathstars. Rediculous numbers of strong attacks hitting first is what won combats. Fear never mattered to Bloodknights.
Wood Elves only get an army book every 2-3 editions, one in 4th edition (1996), one in 6th edition (2005). Last time they invented a new subfraction (Kislev) and a new race (Ogres) to avoid making them for another year. So expect the next WE army book 2014
The only other army (other than my VC) that I'm interested in would be Wood Elves and they sorely need an update (just to the rules, the majority of the models are just fine)!
Ozymandias wrote:Agreed, and some plastic, not-crappy treekin while they are at it.
Yea, I mean they already have a very nice plastic Treeman! . Anyways back on topic who knows if they have a plastic varghulf set or not. GW does have some strange tendencies
The best material for VC since the 6th army book, was the Army of Sylvania from Storm of Chaos, and then Mat Wards (yup) awesome campaign in White Dwarf #308-310 'Return of the Lichemaster' heavy with Barrow King fluff and rules. I'd love to see GW spin something out of that.
Private_SeeD wrote:I've been told that one of the reasons VC are being released in Jan is to reign in the crazy amount of magical item/toys they have. Also the knights were supposed to be released when the Terrorgheist Was released but got pulled at the last second and involved scrapping quite a few White dwarf.
Also randomly December will contain a number of mini releases of a few armies (I knw it's not VC related)
Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.
Some speculation from different sides that it may only be a miniature update, not a new army book.
Also crazy amount of magical items? That doesnt sound like a normal 8th book (you know, bump up the cost of some items to obscene levels and take out 50% of the list)
kenshin620 wrote:
Also crazy amount of magical items? That doesnt sound like a normal 8th book (you know, bump up the cost of some items to obscene levels and take out 50% of the list)
I'd assume it's a reference to the current book, which has 4 pages of Magic Items and 2 pages of Vampiric Powers.
Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.
Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models? Odd. I'm sure VC players will be perfectly happy with new models for both and not new units.
Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.
Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models? Odd. I'm sure VC players will be perfectly happy with new models for both and not new units.
Or it means that it's "not a straight replacement".
What I'm getting out of it is that it is a Black Coach/Knight kit--but it's also going to feature the ability to build something else too.
Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.
Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models?...
Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.
Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models? Odd. I'm sure VC players will be perfectly happy with new models for both and not new units.
Or it means that it's "not a straight replacement".
What I'm getting out of it is that it is a Black Coach/Knight kit--but it's also going to feature the ability to build something else too.
Seems most likely to me. I mean, how much can you do with undead riders? Wights, Vampires... Ethereals?
Oh. Goodie. A new kit for something that almost no one bothers to take in 8th anyway due to the magic draining rules. And of course the option to make something else which will undoubtedly be better than a black coach anyway. Sadly, none of these new things actually address the core issue for VC. I mean, I don't MIND having the army being shown a little love as a reminder that GW hasn't forgotten about the army, but, um....
For sake of accuracy Harry also posted this over on vampirecounts.net:
The black coach kit is not a remake of the existing black coach and it is dual kit.
So much like other recent releases you will be able to build two quite different things.
The other thing is NOT a siege engine.
The riders are not black knights ... they are also something new.
The monsterous infantry are obviously something new but they are unlike the monsterous infantry of any army.
So lots of new entries in the book lots of new models.
If life got any better ... I couldn't live with myself.
Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:
1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.
Kanluwen wrote:Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:
1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.
Eh. Not only do I think those to be unlikely, but I hope they are untrue.
Ouroborus wrote:Besides the Flesh Golem, are there any rumors of any other new units?
Yes.
If you read into the posted rumours just a little bit.
If there is a black coach that isn't exactly a black coach and it makes something else thats defo not a black coach.
If there are riders that are not black knights thats another thing.
Obviously the Terrorgeist will be in.
Hastings said there is a new mini for Krell so he will be in ... so at least one new character.
The female Vampire could be seen as a return to the book of the Lahmian Bloodline.
So Yes I would say there are plenty of rumours for new stuff.
My understanding is the book has five new units + Lords/Heroes.
That is alot of exciting new options/builds.
BRING IT ON!
(...)
hastings didn't specify beyond 'female Vampire'.
I am making an assumption based on something else I heard.
So, it's basically going to be "Army Book: Von Carsteins" again, but this time with the option for Special Characters to make it something else (No doubt Krell will play a part in some Barrow King or Necromancer-themed list, and Ms. Lamia was mentioned too)?
I guess that's better than the options now, at least a degree of representation, but not exactly favorable of "You must have [x] character to be [y]" requirements. Then again, this may be because nearly every one of them, even "opening" the new list, never compares to the old back-of-the-book lists.
Kanluwen wrote:Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:
1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.
I like the idea of a Black Coach with lots of options - epxcially if more of the blood lines are represented - there coud be something to do with the Strigori?
I like the idea of the Blood Dragon and his Wight Knights / Foot Knights (should really bring bakc the Rieksguard on foot too )
Flesh Golems - Kinda prefer a Special character bodyguard type but "Super zombies" idea is also fun, very Res Evil
I am sad that the majority of the fun and flavourful magic items will dispaear as they did in the two most recent army books :( Hopefully the Vampire powers will remain in some form to at least give some chance of representing the Non Carnstien Vampires - who are often much more interesting. After all Ogre Big Names did stay - watered down and reduced :(
Kanluwen wrote:Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:
1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.
Eh. Not only do I think those to be unlikely, but I hope they are untrue.
Yeah it would be unlikely, but I was thinking in terms of how GW might go.
-A Black Coach having the 'Vampire' special rule and allowing the regenerating Vampire within to exert his influence on the army, ala the Corpse Cart and its Balefire/Unholy Lodestone upgrades turning them into two effectively different beasts but still the same unit type.
-The second one is just guesswork. If I were Phil Kelly or one of the GW writers, that's what I would do if I were told to alter the dynamic of the VC army. Making "Riders of the Damned" or "Revenants" rather than the "Black Knights" we have now is totally something I can imagine them doing, and giving them fluff to make it so that it's Knights of Blood Keep making another appearance would definitely be within their way to go.
-The Flesh Golem you are absolutely right about them being "unlikely", but I do think it would be something unexpected and quite frankly a smart way to do it for them. If the Flesh Golems effectively 'spread' throughout the Zombie units that you could raise, or they have something like an alternate Black Coach which is a "Lab on Wheels" for a Necrarch, where the Lab churns out Flesh Golems based upon casualties inflicted by Undead units within a certain radius or Corpse Carts--that'd definitely be "unlike the Monstrous Infantry of any other army" I think.
Admittedly, I might just be wishlisting or overthinking it--but there's very little to really go upon.
Kanluwen wrote:So it's not unreasonable to make a conclusion that Blood Knights are being done in plastic and Black Knights are being dropped from the book?
I think that's completely unreasonable, actually. Firstly, the Blood Knights kit is too pretty to retired or redo (however few GW sells because of the price). Secondly, Black Knights and Blood Knights ride significantly different mounts. If the new kit is dual-purpose (with the ability to make Black Knights out of them) it must feature skeletal steeds, meaning the second option probably has nothing to do with Blood Dragons or mounted vampires.
My guesses:
1. Split the Black Knight concept in two. One unit will consist of corporeal wights, heavily armoured, killing blow, etc. The second option will be true Ethereal cavalry (not sure how the riders will differ.... mounted Wraiths, maybe?)
2. Zombie cavalry! If the new skeletal steed sculpts are kind of a combination of sloughing flesh and exposed bones they'd be an aesthetic fit for both rotten zombie riders and bony, sterile wights.
753. Ghoul riders? This would be pretty dumb, imo, but it would increase the viability of a Ghoul King army theme (building on the emergence of the Terrorgeist)
edit:
Kanluwen wrote:
-The Flesh Golem you are absolutely right about them being "unlikely", but I do think it would be something unexpected and quite frankly a smart way to do it for them. If the Flesh Golems effectively 'spread' throughout the Zombie units that you could raise, or they have something like an alternate Black Coach which is a "Lab on Wheels" for a Necrarch, where the Lab churns out Flesh Golems based upon casualties inflicted by Undead units within a certain radius or Corpse Carts--that'd definitely be "unlike the Monstrous Infantry of any other army" I think.
The "lab on wheels" is a really great idea. Ideally it would be an upgraded mount option for an upgraded Necromancer option. I'm not sure I like your hypothetical gameplay mechanic, though, since it seems like something that would be incredibly annoying for opponents (having to deal with multiple single model units of monstrous infantry).
Is it a large kit? Yes
Will it be do able in fine cast? Not efficiently.
Would it be done in plastic? Yes its the most sensible thing to do.
How would we make profit back on a plastic kit for a unit that is probably going to be Rare? Same thing as all the latest large size kits since Skavens release.
Make it multi purpose kit that can be used on 2 different army book entry units + extra bits to go around the rest of the VC army.
The sensible thing in recreating Blood Knights and Black Knights.
Main issue is how different they look, this creates problem whether to create 2 separate kits or dropping Black Knight out ( They are too old to be made into Finecast )
Solution: instead of erasing Black Knights, GW can redesign a new aesthetic look to them (like all the new plastic hybrid ktis ) . They can share same kit with some minor difference in load out.
Different head is a no brainer, perhaps Blood Knight uses lances, while they have extra axes and swords as Wight Blade for Black Knights.
Kanluwen wrote:So it's not unreasonable to make a conclusion that Blood Knights are being done in plastic and Black Knights are being dropped from the book?
I think that's completely unreasonable, actually. Firstly, the Blood Knights kit is too pretty to retired or redo (however few GW sells because of the price). Secondly, Black Knights and Blood Knights ride significantly different mounts. If the new kit is dual-purpose (with the ability to make Black Knights out of them) it must feature skeletal steeds, meaning the second option probably has nothing to do with Blood Dragons or mounted vampires.
My guesses:
1. Split the Black Knight concept in two. One unit will consist of corporeal wights, heavily armoured, killing blow, etc. The second option will be true Ethereal cavalry (not sure how the riders will differ.... mounted Wraiths, maybe?)
2. Zombie cavalry! If the new skeletal steed sculpts are kind of a combination of sloughing flesh and exposed bones they'd be an aesthetic fit for both rotten zombie riders and bony, sterile wights.
Now you're cookin' with gas.
One thing I hadn't really considered was simply that Nightmares become the 'standard' mount for both Black Knights and Blood Knights, maybe with Blood Knights getting a nastier version that would look the same.
753. Ghoul riders? This would be pretty dumb, imo, but it would increase the viability of a Ghoul King army theme (building on the emergence of the Terrorgeist)
See, I think with the "Ghoul King" army theme, people have gotten too fixated on the idea of "Ghouls! Ghouls! Ghouls!".
Strigoi were always supposed to be the "bestial" nature of the Vampires, cut loose. I could see Varghulfs or Super Dire Wolves taking up the Ghoul King's "cavalry" role.
Kanluwen wrote:
-The Flesh Golem you are absolutely right about them being "unlikely", but I do think it would be something unexpected and quite frankly a smart way to do it for them. If the Flesh Golems effectively 'spread' throughout the Zombie units that you could raise, or they have something like an alternate Black Coach which is a "Lab on Wheels" for a Necrarch, where the Lab churns out Flesh Golems based upon casualties inflicted by Undead units within a certain radius or Corpse Carts--that'd definitely be "unlike the Monstrous Infantry of any other army" I think.
The "lab on wheels" is a really great idea. Ideally it would be an upgraded mount option for an upgraded Necromancer option. I'm not sure I like your hypothetical gameplay mechanic, though, since it seems like something that would be incredibly annoying for opponents (having to deal with multiple single model units of monstrous infantry).
Yeah, it sounds like it would be annoying for opponents...
In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.
Mirbeau wrote:Not Harry but... rotters, the lot of them. Well, with an exception.
ihavetoomuchminis wrote:About the Monstruous infantry unit, i've been told that they are more of Big ghouls than big zombies. Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller? Don't know, just guessing.
I like the idea of ghouls riding direwolves, personally. And, although this has been done in other armies (Skaven/LM) I think a big giant zombie or zombie Ogres would be alot of fun to have shambling inside zombie blocks. You could even have a special attack where the big guy picks up a zombie and hucks it at his enemies for a 8" killing blow attack, or a great weapon or the like. Sac a zombie, get a special attack. This would be a pretty fun (and different) idea for a MI model...
I could understand a Flesh Golem as in the D&D "Animated construct of flesh", if only because of Necrarchs. If anyone else has the 6th Edition Army Book on hand, it provides a ready example (a Fairy / Forest spirit that was torn apart by a Necrarch in experiments). Fluff-wise, it can be anything from prized Ogre bodies animated for war (prized because Ogres are hard as nails, so acquiring one's body that is still useable is a bit difficult) to experiments with Warpstone to just straight-old "I wonder what would happen if I started stitching a bunch of Zombies / Ghouls together".
Problem being that the only niches I can see such filling are either a pseudo-Giant-monster-thing (which Vampires already have via Vargulf, unless this is to be a Non-Vampire list variety akin to Wolf & Boar chariots), or it's a Troll analogue (which without Vomit attacks would need an interesting rule to make worthwhile). Hm, Unbreakable Undead that lacks the Unstable rule? Could see that somewhere in the list, something that's thrown in to tie things up and smash a few faces as it does so.
~ ~ ~ ~
I don't exactly like the idea of Ghoul Cavalry, mostly because they skulk in graveyards and sewers and what-not. They're scavengers, typically along the fringes of society, and a mob of Ghouls on Wolves just doesn't work. Now, Wolves that can be sick'd from the unit instead (Like the old Sabretusks), those I could see.
~ ~ ~ ~
My understanding of the Strigoi was (and anyone who knows more feel free to correct me) that:
1) They started off like most all the other Vampire Bloodlines. Lord converted by what would become the Lamian bloodline's matriarch, part of ruling caste, etcetera.
2) When the Nehek' realm was sacked, they scattered like most other Vampires. However, unlike the other factions which either dissolved into personal projects (Blood Dragon combat-hunting, Necrarch studies) or their own projects of power / infiltration (Lamians and Von Carsteins), the Strigoi tried to recapture the splendor of their homeland. Create cities, rule a populace, etcetera.
3) For the most part, they did this well enough. They had a people under them who were at least somewhat loyal, life went on for their living serfs (arguably better than for the remaining living of Nehekhara), and so on. However, eventually in one campaign, the majority of their military strength was away from their realms as Orcs invaded. Their lands were pretty much sacked / destroyed, leaving only a few isolated communities and those who were away alive.
4) The Strigoi turned to their brethren for aid, which was met with resounding "Lolno"s as people either just didn't care for those outside their bloodline (or even then), frowned upon the Strigoi's activities, or were just general dicks.
5) Strigoi, hunted by both Vampires and other civilizations, went into isolation and started to devolve as they embraced the "beast within" in order to survive.
Minsc wrote:I could understand a Flesh Golem as in the D&D "Animated construct of flesh", if only because of Necrarchs. If anyone else has the 6th Edition Army Book on hand, it provides a ready example (a Fairy / Forest spirit that was torn apart by a Necrarch in experiments). Fluff-wise, it can be anything from prized Ogre bodies animated for war (prized because Ogres are hard as nails, so acquiring one's body that is still useable is a bit difficult) to experiments with Warpstone to just straight-old "I wonder what would happen if I started stitching a bunch of Zombies / Ghouls together".
It's not just Necrarchs that do this. There's a breif mention in the 7th edition book about Vlads army containing large undead 'seige monsters', which I always thought of as large things made of various large dead creatures stitched together.
The only Vampires I would see as not using things like Undead contructs like Flesh Golems would be Blood Dragons. 6th edition Lahmians as well probably, but with 7th edition and the short story of Neferata having zombies guarding the Silver Pinnacles gates, Lahmians would use them as well now.
Minsc wrote:I could understand a Flesh Golem as in the D&D "Animated construct of flesh", if only because of Necrarchs. If anyone else has the 6th Edition Army Book on hand, it provides a ready example (a Fairy / Forest spirit that was torn apart by a Necrarch in experiments). Fluff-wise, it can be anything from prized Ogre bodies animated for war (prized because Ogres are hard as nails, so acquiring one's body that is still useable is a bit difficult) to experiments with Warpstone to just straight-old "I wonder what would happen if I started stitching a bunch of Zombies / Ghouls together".
Bahaha.
I love the idea of Necrarchs essentially pulling a "Can it Blend?" with whatever body parts they can get.
But if I were a betting man, I'd say it would likely be similar to the Abominations we see in the Warcraft franchise.
Problem being that the only niches I can see such filling are either a pseudo-Giant-monster-thing (which Vampires already have via Vargulf, unless this is to be a Non-Vampire list variety akin to Wolf & Boar chariots), or it's a Troll analogue (which without Vomit attacks would need an interesting rule to make worthwhile). Hm, Unbreakable Undead that lacks the Unstable rule? Could see that somewhere in the list, something that's thrown in to tie things up and smash a few faces as it does so.
Oooh, or maybe it has some kind of explodey special rule?
Bombbies!
I don't exactly like the idea of Ghoul Cavalry, mostly because they skulk in graveyards and sewers and what-not. They're scavengers, typically along the fringes of society, and a mob of Ghouls on Wolves just doesn't work. Now, Wolves that can be sick'd from the unit instead (Like the old Sabretusks), those I could see.
Agreed on the Ghoul Cavalry part. It seems far, far too silly.
Like I said, if it were me I'd have some kind of Super Dire Wolf. Something the size of a daggone Rhinox or the like, which wouldn't be entirely unfounded as there's been "rumors and whispers" within the Empire of such things if that hasn't been retconned.
Just to cut down on clutter, I'm putting your big, wordy bit on the Strigoi in spoilers just to save people some screenspace. It's unchanged though.
Spoiler:
My understanding of the Strigoi was (and anyone who knows more feel free to correct me) that:
1) They started off like most all the other Vampire Bloodlines. Lord converted by what would become the Lamian bloodline's matriarch, part of ruling caste, etcetera.
2) When the Nehek' realm was sacked, they scattered like most other Vampires. However, unlike the other factions which either dissolved into personal projects (Blood Dragon combat-hunting, Necrarch studies) or their own projects of power / infiltration (Lamians and Von Carsteins), the Strigoi tried to recapture the splendor of their homeland. Create cities, rule a populace, etcetera.
3) For the most part, they did this well enough. They had a people under them who were at least somewhat loyal, life went on for their living serfs (arguably better than for the remaining living of Nehekhara), and so on. However, eventually in one campaign, the majority of their military strength was away from their realms as Orcs invaded. Their lands were pretty much sacked / destroyed, leaving only a few isolated communities and those who were away alive.
4) The Strigoi turned to their brethren for aid, which was met with resounding "Lolno"s as people either just didn't care for those outside their bloodline (or even then), frowned upon the Strigoi's activities, or were just general dicks.
5) Strigoi, hunted by both Vampires and other civilizations, went into isolation and started to devolve as they embraced the "beast within" in order to survive.
This about right for a Strigoi summary?
Sounds about right, except for the "beast within" part.
It says that "In their desolation many of them lost their minds completely and became solitary, pathetic creatures, afraid of feeding on humans for fear of attracting the attention of the witch hunters or, even worse, of other Vampres." and then goes on to talk about how their physical appearance soon started to reflect their miserable conditions, etc and so on and so forth. Their magic is "instinctual" and "less subtle" when compared to Necromancy proper.
NatTreehouse wrote:What I know:
New Black Knights/Some other mounted stuff kit
New Dual Kit makes two war machine things, NEITHER is a Black Coach
Monstrous Infantry Dual Kit
Ghouls up to 10pts
Current Black Coach kit stays and goes finecost
February release.
That is all.
Frgt/10 wrote:
What I know:
New Dual Kit makes two war machine things, NEITHER is a Black Coach
Current Black Coach kit stays and goes finecost
February release.
this is all incorrect from what im hearing
ihavetoomuchminis wrote:Frgt 10 is right, that info is all wrong from what i've been told.
Black coach goes plastic.
January release (here we disagree).
Ghouls not 10 points (i don't know about that, but i don't see it).
Do We have a GW member here misinformating us?
Harry wrote:I think of what Nattreehouse says sounds about right.
The duel Black Coach kit in which neither is exactly a black coach Check.
The current black coach staying and going finecast. Check ... which along with the plague cart gives you a fair few 'wagon type war machines' to go at.
Duel Monsterous infantry. Check
I hadn't considered a duel cavalry kit.
I know about new cavalry ... so assumed no Black Riders ... but a duel kit is doable.
BUT this is an interesting situation as Frgt10 is normally bang on. Ihavetoomuchmins also hastoomuchaccurateinfo to be just guessing most of the time and ghost who is singing like a canary on the contingents thread is nowhere to be seen.
Ghouls going to 10 points is stupid. The reason Ghouls are taken over Skeletons isn't because Ghouls are too cheap, it's because Skeletons are too expensive.
All this big kit stuff and various rumour flying about but no mention of an undead giant which would probably be enough for me to dust off my WHFB stuff.
Whilst it doesn't happen as often as Codexes (for which there are no pereceivable pattern), Fantasy Army Books have been known to "jump the cycle". Empire, Orcs & Goblins, and High Elves are usually the guilty parties though...
-Loki- wrote:Ghouls going to 10 points is stupid. The reason Ghouls are taken over Skeletons isn't because Ghouls are too cheap, it's because Skeletons are too expensive.
It's a bit of both, actually. Ghouls are pretty darn good for 8 points.
Anyway, if they don't revamp the Coach with a new plastic kit I will be hugely disappointed. That metal/finecast model is no fun, and I've had one sitting around for years that I don't feel like assembling. BTW, if anybody wants to buy a Black Coach PM me.
-Loki- wrote:I wouldn't want an Undead Giant. While an obvious choice, I want to see some stuff that's a bit more creative.
-Loki- wrote:A hunched over, feral looking Giant to match the Ghouls I can get behind. That would look badass.
So an undead Giant then mate?
I have some ogre sized Skellies from grendal/grenadier from about 20 years ago. I sways wondered why GW necromancers could raise Ogre zombies/Skellies too!
What I would really like (however boring) would be Undead warmachines that aren't made of bloody bones! While I have two of both the original Screaming Skull catapult and chariot it always bugged me that they were bone. We get it they're bloomin dead!
What I would really like (however boring) would be Undead warmachines that aren't made of bloody bones! While I have two of both the original Screaming Skull catapult and chariot it always bugged me that they were bone. We get it they're bloomin dead!
Maybe the underlying idea was that the undead lords could knit together those constructs using their mastery of dead matter (as opposed to the slightly ridiculous conceit of a bunch of skeletal carpenters labouring away to build a normal chariot/catapult).
I wouldn't really have a problem with an undead giant, but it seems kind of wasteful in comparison to the other releases that could be undertaken. It's much easier to convert a Zombie giant than it is to convert Flesh Golems or a plastic Black Coach. Plus, considering that the current Giant kit is designed for use by, what, three different armies? it's kind of hard to imagine GW releasing another, single-army, one-per-army, Giant kit.
-Loki- wrote:Ghouls going to 10 points is stupid. The reason Ghouls are taken over Skeletons isn't because Ghouls are too cheap, it's because Skeletons are too expensive.
There's no reason to think that just because the ghouls are going up in points that the skeletons aren't going down in points as well. Hell, 10 point ghouls with 4 point skeletons would actually make me rethink what to take in my list.
I love there to be more non human skeletons and zombies - How mnay dead Orks, skaven and beastmen are lying baout waiting to raised. Great models in the Cursed Company but a bit expensive. Plastic raised non human undead would be nice and unique on the market as far as I am aware.
Lahimirians tend to be very subtle and take a dim view of other Vampires trying to conquer the world and generally draw attention to them. They are working to take control, yes on behalf of the Queen of Silver Pinacle - be fun to have them as an option for human armies against other undead or Chaos etc
LunaHound wrote:As much as i welcome a VC update, isn't it Wood Elf's turn soon?
Or does GW deem VC to be more profitable?
I mean we recently have Tomb Kings , and soon to be Necrons...
The last Elf update was IoB.
If you're factoring Necrons into your Undead list, then you need to factor Dark Eldar onto the annoying-whining-pointy-eared-gits side of the scales...
-Loki- wrote:I wouldn't want an Undead Giant. While an obvious choice, I want to see some stuff that's a bit more creative.
-Loki- wrote:A hunched over, feral looking Giant to match the Ghouls I can get behind. That would look badass.
So an undead Giant then mate?
No, a giant Ghoul. When I think Undead Giant, I think either a giant that's been zombified or peiced together like a giant flesh golem. It's an obvious, though hardly creative, choice. A giant Ghoul is very different.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ixquic wrote:It would be awesome if ghouls went back to being alive so that something in the army could take advantage of steadfast.
Unless they go all the way and make them skirmishers. Which would severely piss off a lot of people who have hordes of them.
Ixquic wrote:It would be awesome if ghouls went back to being alive so that something in the army could take advantage of steadfast.
Unless they go all the way and make them skirmishers. Which would severely piss off a lot of people who have hordes of them.
You wouldn't want them to be skirmishers. You'd want a ton of them so that you could have a steadfast unit with lots of ranks using the general's leadership 10 to make them never break. They would probably have to lose the ability to be raised into but it would make one of the core choices a little more different than the other two when most armies typically have more specialized stuff (ranged, skirmishing, ranked close combat, cavalry, etc) when Vampires just have three flavors of movement 4 infantry.
LunaHound wrote:They could only nerf ghouls which makes me sad.
Perhaps a feeding rule to not chase down broken units.
Harry wrote:Current black coach going Finecast (possibly/eventually)
New Kit making something black coach like and something quite different.
New Cavalry Kit (could be dual kit?) making new riders (and possibly black knights?)
Monsterous kit making 'uge flesh golem, ghoul, zombie type things and something else.
75hastings69 wrote:the something else being pretty much exactly the same, but with wings.
You forgot that Harry also all but said the "new kit" for the Black Coach is making a Lahmian and Necrarch version.
He implied that when he stated something to the effect of looking at the Strigoi and Blood Dragon representation on the Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist kits
I'm wondering if they're going to be a replacement for Fellbats, since Fellbats never get taken and GW seem reluctant to remake their models. It would also help move them away from 'spooky Halloween army' to something with its own identity.
The fact that the not-Black Coach dual kit might have additional peices to theme it as Lahmian or Necrarch means there is very likely a return of the Bloodlines, which alone is worth a cry of excitement.
"Elegance" and "beauty" do not belong when we're talking about what will most likely be the result of the mind of a madman who's been playing "Will it blend?" with corpses for several lifetimes.
Also: they're monstrous infantry.
Rat Ogres are a better comparison than Hellpit Abominations.
Kanluwen wrote:"Elegance" and "beauty" do not belong when we're talking about what will most likely be the result of the mind of a madman who's been playing "Will it blend?" with corpses for several lifetimes.
Aha i knew you would say that.
No. The elegance and beauty comes from within. Its a style and talent within the artist / sculptor itself..
For example, Rackham Asherons. Elegance, beauty, grace. For bunch of rotting flesh and bone.
-Loki- wrote:Depends if that's what you want from the models. I want the visual theme you currently get from Ghouls and Zombies. Nasty, horribly, dirty.
-Loki- wrote:Depends if that's what you want from the models. I want the visual theme you currently get from Ghouls and Zombies. Nasty, horribly, dirty.
I also want this, but with wings.
Because flying zombies are amazing.
No. Just no.
I hate that idea ( if you literally mean zombie unit with wings )
I hate that so much i'll buy you a box of it if im wrong about GW not coming up with something that bad.
Though if im right hmmm.... what do i want...
While we are at bets, i'll make another bets.
If VC are the next fantasy army to come out, im betting:
new zombie kits + ( with all the nice trimmings of new rules and such of course )
New zombies would be nice, especially if they look like the zombies with the Corpse Cart. But I can't see it happening. They'd be too busy with all the new dual kits.
I wouldn't say they're going to be winged zombies - zombies are just reanimated corpses. This sounds like freakish frankensteins monster type things where the creator has decided to throw wings on it and hope for the best. Which sounds awesome.
-Loki- wrote:New zombies would be nice, especially if they look like the zombies with the Corpse Cart. But I can't see it happening. They'd be too busy with all the new dual kits.
Whether or not they do new ones, I'm okay.
I have 80 zombies, as it stands right now(40 through the two VC Battalions I've bought, 40 through getting two boxes from my LGS at a 5% discount).
I wouldn't say they're going to be winged zombies - zombies are just reanimated corpses. This sounds like freakish frankensteins monster type things where the creator has decided to throw wings on it and hope for the best. Which sounds awesome.
Don't you dare kill my dream of flying zombies. Don't you dare, Loki!
It'd be death from above! And that's completely worth keeping dreams alive for!
But you are right that it will likely be a 'freakish monster type thing'. If I had to guess, it'll be some kind of deranged blend of corpses to make an Ogre sized creature which gets random attributes based on whatever the creator decided to staple to it that day.
-Loki- wrote:Man, how terrible would it be for troops beneath them as they fly over, sewn up stomachs slowly splitting and dropping rancid bits all over them.
-Loki- wrote:Man, how terrible would it be for troops beneath them as they fly over, sewn up stomachs slowly splitting and dropping rancid bits all over them.
I want them more now.
Pretend the gray lines are intestines
Remember!!!!
Take a pic of the zombie kan i want to see them in hordes
Small tidbit: Harry over at Warseer heard this rumour:
No News ... but I heard a rumour.
I heard Isabella will be back.
Which is nice
El Antiguo Guardián wrote:But Isabella is back now, we only need a new model. Wait a second...New Isabella Model? xD
Thats what I heard.
This is in addition to the already rumoured Lamihan vampire ...
... although it is possible this first rumour didn't recognise the sculpt as a new Isabella?
The newer Vlad sculpt was a bit of a departure from the old one; less aristocrat and more spiky warrior look to it - I wonder if the new Isabella will be radically different?
Seems like there will not be a full Vampire army book in January, only a few releases (army book later). And Empire before Vampires.
75hastings69 wrote:Things have tightened up at GW with regards to leaks, I barely know what to expect until the end of 2012 these days! Lol!!
I'd say not only are things tighter but a lot of focus has been on necrons of late. However if to take a good look through this thread you'll know quite a bit about what to expect for the new book.
75hastings69 wrote:I'd "guess" 5 new vc units "might" be...
1. Terrorgheist
2. Flesh golem/big ghoul thing
3. As above with wings
4. The black coach alternate plastic kit build
5. The alternate vc cav plastic kit
I'll be honest and tell you I wasn't expecting vc in January. I had them down for mid feb. However several people are pretty sure they are jan so that's good enough for me.
Maybe we'll see more stuff surface in the next few weeks?
Harry wrote:
Valle wrote:True, we know that a few new things are comming and we know in what neighborhood we should place them, but we dont much other than that... For instance we know that a dual kit for a "something else than a black coach" is comming but what is that?
I think we know loads about VC ....
.... considering I think we might see the Empire stuff before the VC.
and that is two something elses ... neither of which is a black coach.
Try and keep up.
75hastings69 wrote:Seems I'm wrong about the black coach, it's actually something else's - well two something else to be exact. This makes me sad because 1. I'm wrong (again!) and 2. The current black coach IMO is very dated. But on the other hand I'm happy because NEW MODELS!!!
* it would appear that the black coach was not the only thing I was wrong about, my hat is off to an apparition of a poster for yet more sterling work! (I need to fire my sources big time for this one!)
(...)
That's quite handy as I know more about empire than vc and originally had them as released before vc.
Harry wrote:hastings ... 99.9% right ... 99.9% of the time.
Not 100% sure on the release order. (only 93.7% )
I seem to have heard about the same amount for both Empire and Vampire Counts.
I get where the January thing came from though. We do get something for VC in january.
75hastings69 wrote:I don't mind being wrong when it means that things are more awesome that I had imagined! Lol!
Thanks! Always glad to see some more Fantasy rumors. Here's hoping for another army book on par with the rest of the 8th ones- and for a reintroduction of variety into the competitive VC builds.
I'd like new ghoul models and zombies. As for flying zombies, I's rather have a stonethrower/splatapult. It could fire a few zombies at a unit and any models it hits become zombies. The slightly more traditional flying units would be the ohmaghoulies who have no legs. Great fliers buy not so great when engaging the enemy, hence their cry of "OHMAGHOULIES!" as the Empire's pikemen prove that "they don't like it up 'em".
ihavetoomuchminis wrote:On the rumour thing, and just to confirm some rumours, my sources (i can't tell wich sources) have told me that:
- a new dual warmachine kit is coming. I suppose it's the rumoured non-black coach black coach and the coven throne. Don't know if it'll give us some shooting attack.
- New cavalry. Don't know if blood knights, black knights, or what....but new. Plastic.
- Several necromancer models (3 or 4). Maybe necromancers will have a more important role?
- New monstruous thing. I assume it's the MI unit.
I imagine the increase of Necromancer models will either relate to the return of Necromancer lists, or it's because GW is realizing that one-enough model for a unit entry - even a throw-away character - is bad.
But then, they also only released one variety of Cryptek, so who knows!
Frgt/10 wrote:new info on vamps, all appears to be 100% accurate:
- they are coming January (100% now)
- mortis engine/coven throne (unsure if this is final name) - plastic kit. apparently HUGE. we may be talking arachnarok base for this thing...(edit: thinking a bit more about it, it will probably be a chariot base like the sphinxes; but i think these things will be bigger than your average chariot from what ive heard)
- wraith riders/black knights - confirmed dual plastic cav kit
- monstrous infantry unit (unsure of name) - plastic kit. has option for wings. adding the wings is probably a unit option and may not be a completely separate unit.
- new finecast krell model
- black coach is indeed getting finecasted (damn Harry being right again )
a few of these are just confirmations of info we already have, but at least its more solid.
As long as I can;
a) play up the Lahmian theme beyond masses of skellies/grave guard
b) have skellies who aren't obscenely over-costed crap.
I'll be having a very happy birthday come January!
My poor VC's have spent the past year gathering dust because skeletons suck so bad in 8th... That and every local high elf player takes a Lv2 w/seerstaff to chuck a 6-dice purple sun 1st turn when playing against any I2 army. Do we have any idea who's writen this book? Considering they put Kelly's name on the WD update article, I'm hoping that means he's done the book as well...
Damn, good thing I bought my black coach last year!
I recently ordered a pack of the finecast blasted standards... I could see daylight shinning through the tassles on the Tzeentch icon one, called up mail order to get a replacement, the second version was worse! The horns have great gapping holes all down their sides.
Hate to think what black coach miscasts will look like...
Experiment 626 wrote:As long as I can;
a) play up the Lahmian theme beyond masses of skellies/grave guard
I'm hoping they don't go the route of the 6th edition book and limit your selections by bloodlines. It didn't bother me then because there really weren't many choices I liked. But now? I do want to use a Terrorgheist. And the new monstrous infantry sounds interesting. Hopefully it's more you get particular extras if you go with a bloodline rather than limitations.
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Aerethan wrote:The important question is will there be new vampire models? The current selection is terrible.
Well, apparently there's a new Isabella model. But yeah, I wouldn't mind some new vampire models, or even re-releases of the older models. If they gave me the 6th edition Lahmians in Finecast, I'd be very happy, considering there would be 4 of them. And in finecast, it would be much easier to cut the headdress off so I could sculpt on some hair.
Personally I think the Vampire models or sufficient for now, the winged vampire is okay, and if painted well the aristocratic vamp looks awesome.
We definitely need new models for the black knights, atm they are the only skeleton models in the army that are still out of proportion, if they can fix that, they would be much better.
Zombies could do with maybe a little updating...they look kinda wrong tbh...like the old skeletons with skin...then need to be better proportioned as well.
And I love the sound of having new war machines...the black coach sucks atm :/
LazzurusMan wrote:Personally I think the Vampire models or sufficient for now, the winged vampire is okay, and if painted well the aristocratic vamp looks awesome.
Really? There's two current generic vampires. For an army whose entire soul (or lack thereof) comes from its characters, there's a severe lack of non special character vampires.
Sure, you can direct order some of the 6th edition vampires, and some of them are nice (I still like the Lahmian, Necrarch and some of the Blood Dragon vampires from that era), but the Von Carsteins and Strigoi from that era edition is histerically bad.
Giving us another couple of generic vampires from different bloodlines with some different powers (like a Blood Dragon with flight) would be nice.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I tried to take it to PM's, but the Kan just doesn't get it folks. He even tried to argue that only WAAC players liked the old Codex. I mean honestly...
Generic arguments like 'just use counts as' and 'Iron Warriors were too powerful' in no way excuse or justify what was done to the Chaos Codex, and the same applies to the gutted VC list.
3
In particular since the Iron Warriors list was basically untouched.
I agree there aren't enough, but the ones we have are nice, and i too love some of the old 6th ed vamps.
Maybe if they re-did the Lhamian and Blood dragon vamps...or even better do what they've done with other lines like the empire...make a generic vampire plastic kit that can be made into vamps that at least look like they belong to a cirtain bloodline...You watching GW??? I'm not going to say this again! XD
Sirius42 wrote:Are we talking new fine cast coach or wasting resources on fine casting the crappy old one?
Old model converted to Finecast.
Honestly, there's nothing really wrong with the old model. New horses would be nice, but the model is still pretty good. Still fits the Von Carstein aesthetic well.
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LazzurusMan wrote:Maybe if they re-did the Lhamian and Blood dragon vamps...
Redo the Lahmians? They're some of the better oldschool vampires. They just need hair rather than that headdress. Some of the Blood Dragons are still good too. Same with Necrarchs. The old Strigoi and von Carsteins though? Terrible.
I agree that a generic vampire multi part plastic kit would be aces.
Currently the only way to kitbash a decent blood dragon is the zombie dragon unhelmeted head and a high elves dragon prince body and whichever legs you fancy.
I wouldn't want a generic plastic kit. But if they're going to update the models, I'd prefer they did it in a similar fashion to 6th edition. 2 models for each bloodline, maybe a mounted version as well.
Do them as single frame plastics like the new releases we're getting, with arm options - Blood Dragons would have hand weapon/shield with an alternate arm holding a second hand weapon, for example. Lahmians would have two hand weapons with an option to put a staff instead in one hand. That kind of thing.
Ozymandias wrote:Since when did something not having its own special rules mean that it ceases to exist in the fluff?
I'd rather not be a slave to the Bloodlines like in the 6th ed book and keep the freedom to create my own vampire like in the 7th ed book.
I'm just saying that since there is no rules justification, bloodline specific models are unlikely as opposed to generic build vampires. I never said they don't exist in fluff.
Eh, the Vampire model with the large wing is still one of my favorites of the entire fantasy range. But I also like the blood dragon with the two handed sword and the necrarch with the skull.
The winged vamp is nice, but it doesn't really help when you want to have a Vampire on foot to match say, your Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon when his poor Dragon(say you've named it Pennyworth or some such) is shot out from under him...
That's why I liked the 6th edition method. You had mounted models with a foot model. They were typically equipped the same way. You could grab the mounted vampire, stick it on a zombie dragon, and have a ready done unmounted vampire.
To be fair:
The Ghoul King is easily usable as foot or mounted. If one were to want to field a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist AND a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, you'd be able to make both a foot and mounted version of the Ghoul King.
For some reason though, they did not make it easy to do that for the Vampire Lord.
Bloodlines were mostly restrictive toward your character choices, and how that impacted your troops. They did not directly restrict your army unless you ran a back-of-the-book list.
Mind, I'm iffy about returning Bloodlines as I figure GW will do it one of two ways:
1) Special Characters. "Oh take [x] Special Character and you're [y] Bloodline". Great, just peachy, after all every Von Carstein army is personally lead by Konrad.
2) Same way Chaos God dedications have been handled (See: Absolutely zero restrictions). As bad as #1 is, this would be even worse. You'll see people take every (competitive) bloodline in a single list that makes no real thematic sense.
gilljoy wrote:Army book is now longer available from GW ( was this morning). Take what you want from this but could be a good sign.
Ooh, it has indeed disappeared from the UK site (once you click on it, it says no longer available), but you can still buy it from the US
Apparently no independent retailers can order the book either...
The US site is likely still selling to the general public because they've got a few books left in their warehouse. While the army list itself is only good for another month and a bit, it's not like the hobby sections & background is all of a sudden useless.
There's always those few people too who simply like to collect the book/s and don't mind buying a current book even when it's up for re-do within a month or so... Plus, if they want to play right away, they'll still need the current list!
When I worked at the local GW store though, I would always at least give customers a heads-up though if a newer version was due out within the next couple of months! Some would wait for the new book and just get their basic core + hero, some would thank me for being honest and pick up the 'old' book anyways to have on hand & read through.
Probably the wrong place to ask this, but didn't want to start another thread about it. But when are Wood Elves going to get an update? I have never played Fantasy but I have a few Wood Elves models and the army book, and I gather its one of the oldest and least competitive books in Fantasy, but i'm still interested in starting a proper Wood Elves army soon. But i've not seen any rumours about them getting updated anytime soon..... (also, didn't VC get an release in 7th edition? I'm sure when i was working for my step-dad at the LFGS he ran there was a VC release and that would have been 2009 or 2010...)
rodgers37 wrote:Probably the wrong place to ask this, but didn't want to start another thread about it. But when are Wood Elves going to get an update? I have never played Fantasy but I have a few Wood Elves models and the army book, and I gather its one of the oldest and least competitive books in Fantasy, but i'm still interested in starting a proper Wood Elves army soon. But i've not seen any rumours about them getting updated anytime soon..... (also, didn't VC get an release in 7th edition? I'm sure when i was working for my step-dad at the LFGS he ran there was a VC release and that would have been 2009 or 2010...)
So far there little indication of WE (or Brets, the two oldest books now since ogres and TK moved on) of getting an update any time soon.
LazzurusMan wrote:Maybe if they re-did the Lhamian and Blood dragon vamps...
Redo the Lahmians? They're some of the better oldschool vampires. They just need hair rather than that headdress. Some of the Blood Dragons are still good too. Same with Necrarchs. The old Strigoi and von Carsteins though? Terrible.
By Re-do I mean put them into finecast, or maybe plastic as I went on to say
LazzurusMan wrote:Maybe if they re-did the Lhamian and Blood dragon vamps...
Redo the Lahmians? They're some of the better oldschool vampires. They just need hair rather than that headdress. Some of the Blood Dragons are still good too. Same with Necrarchs. The old Strigoi and von Carsteins though? Terrible.
By Re-do I mean put them into finecast, or maybe plastic as I went on to say
Oh, I'd definitely be up for the Lahmians going finecast. It would make it easier to carve that Egyptian headdress off so I could sculpt some hair on them. Not to mention it means that I'll only have to suffer a single metal model (the AoW vampiress).
Ozymandias wrote:Since when did something not having its own special rules mean that it ceases to exist in the fluff?
I'd rather not be a slave to the Bloodlines like in the 6th ed book and keep the freedom to create my own vampire like in the 7th ed book.
A nice compromise would be, like the Ghoul King requirement of the new bat thing, if you had to take one blood line power with your Power points allocation (leaving the other points open) and that would unlock certain things. Citizen Levy/better skellies for Carstiens, upgraded ghouls for Strigoi, Bloodknights being Special choices for Blood Dragons, etc. That way you aren't stuck with a particular set of abilities, but taking one ability would tag you for that bloodline, then open up other options and still allow your remaining points to go however you want. Letting you get a slightly killy Necrach lord, for instance.
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-Loki- wrote:
LazzurusMan wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
LazzurusMan wrote:Maybe if they re-did the Lhamian and Blood dragon vamps...
Redo the Lahmians? They're some of the better oldschool vampires. They just need hair rather than that headdress. Some of the Blood Dragons are still good too. Same with Necrarchs. The old Strigoi and von Carsteins though? Terrible.
By Re-do I mean put them into finecast, or maybe plastic as I went on to say
Oh, I'd definitely be up for the Lahmians going finecast. It would make it easier to carve that Egyptian headdress off so I could sculpt some hair on them. Not to mention it means that I'll only have to suffer a single metal model (the AoW vampiress).
"Suffer" is a pretty interesting term given that beauty, though.
Ozymandias wrote:Since when did something not having its own special rules mean that it ceases to exist in the fluff?
I'd rather not be a slave to the Bloodlines like in the 6th ed book and keep the freedom to create my own vampire like in the 7th ed book.
A nice compromise would be, like the Ghoul King requirement of the new bat thing, if you had to take one blood line power with your Power points allocation (leaving the other points open) and that would unlock certain things. Citizen Levy/better skellies for Carstiens, upgraded ghouls for Strigoi, Bloodknights being Special choices for Blood Dragons, etc. That way you aren't stuck with a particular set of abilities, but taking one ability would tag you for that bloodline, then open up other options and still allow your remaining points to go however you want. Letting you get a slightly killy Necrach lord, for instance.
That's actually not a bad idea. Which means it's not how its going to work.
Ozymandias wrote:Since when did something not having its own special rules mean that it ceases to exist in the fluff?
I'd rather not be a slave to the Bloodlines like in the 6th ed book and keep the freedom to create my own vampire like in the 7th ed book.
A nice compromise would be, like the Ghoul King requirement of the new bat thing, if you had to take one blood line power with your Power points allocation (leaving the other points open) and that would unlock certain things. Citizen Levy/better skellies for Carstiens, upgraded ghouls for Strigoi, Bloodknights being Special choices for Blood Dragons, etc. That way you aren't stuck with a particular set of abilities, but taking one ability would tag you for that bloodline, then open up other options and still allow your remaining points to go however you want. Letting you get a slightly killy Necrach lord, for instance.
That's actually not a bad idea. Which means it's not how its going to work.
:laughs: Appreciate the vote of confidence. We can hope, can't we?
I hope this is a true rumor. January will be exciting for me for the 2nd year in a row, last year it was Dark Eldar. Some of the other rumors I heard is that we are supposed to be getting skeleys with bows and some sort of undead giant. I just hope they don't screw up the main, undead, rules for us.
AzureDeath wrote:Some of the other rumors I heard is that we are supposed to be getting skeleys with bows and some sort of undead giant.
That's the first I've heard of skeleton bowmen. I was under the impression they were staying with TK's for a bit of distinction between the gameplay styles. And IIRC, the monstrous infantry rumour started as 'maybe a giant' but turned into a unit of monstrous infantry with wing options.
AzureDeath wrote:I hope this is a true rumor. January will be exciting for me for the 2nd year in a row, last year it was Dark Eldar. Some of the other rumors I heard is that we are supposed to be getting skeleys with bows and some sort of undead giant. I just hope they don't screw up the main, undead, rules for us.
I'd love to have some missile skellies for my Lahmians, but sadly, I doubt it'll happen since TK's have the monopoly on undead shooting... The undead giant rummors iirc, refer to a supposedly forthcoming hierotitan for our dusty cousins.
Don't expect our basic rules to change either - TK's still got shafted on things like the BSB being near-useless, unstable still being a broken rule that overly nerfs all undead core, death of 'X' model = army crumbles... Our basic rules won't change untill 9th edition sadly.
I just really hope I can again play my Lahmians as they should be played; hordes of skeleton warriors, supported by wights and pretty ladies with my wight kings being represented by 'swains' and a few big gribblies! That coven throne is sounding ace!
While I'm still running Lahmians, with all the new toys we're getting, I hope they don't restrict army lists by blood lines. After all, I want to run a Terrorgeist, and probably this new monstrous infantry. And the wraith riders sound ace.
AzureDeath wrote:I hope this is a true rumor. January will be exciting for me for the 2nd year in a row, last year it was Dark Eldar. Some of the other rumors I heard is that we are supposed to be getting skeleys with bows and some sort of undead giant. I just hope they don't screw up the main, undead, rules for us.
I'd love to have some missile skellies for my Lahmians, but sadly, I doubt it'll happen since TK's have the monopoly on undead shooting... The undead giant rummors iirc, refer to a supposedly forthcoming hierotitan for our dusty cousins.
Don't expect our basic rules to change either - TK's still got shafted on things like the BSB being near-useless, unstable still being a broken rule that overly nerfs all undead core, death of 'X' model = army crumbles... Our basic rules won't change untill 9th edition sadly.
I just really hope I can again play my Lahmians as they should be played; hordes of skeleton warriors, supported by wights and pretty ladies with my wight kings being represented by 'swains' and a few big gribblies! That coven throne is sounding ace!
Looking for the same thing really Swains was much fun - even if they did a generic template for the besotted minion
Coldblood666 wrote:I really hope the new cover art is not dominated by orange and yellow like the last two army books...
Dæmon wrote:How about dark red and blueish green tint
Midevil216 wrote:He's refering to the Tomb King and Ogre Kingdoms army books, the last two for 8th ed.
Harry wrote:No, I fancy he is referring to the dark red of the vampire and the bluish green tint of the etherealness on the front cover of the new book.
BramGaunt wrote:New White Dwarf is out on january 7th all around the world.
(...)
I think in this case, as strange as it is, WD and the rest will be released at the same day. Otherwise, yes, january 14th for everything undead =)
BramGaunt wrote:New White Dwarf is out on january 7th all around the world.
(...)
I think in this case, as strange as it is, WD and the rest will be released at the same day. Otherwise, yes, january 14th for everything undead =)
Maybe some birdies will start singing after Christmas?! (we can hope)
I think part of the reason for the lack of anything at all is just the general timing of Xmas. The rumor mongers have better things to do during this time of year, like eating vast quantities of turkey!
Warseer seems to be of the mind set that we might start seeing some leaked WD photos shortly after Christmas, so there's that to look forward to in the meantime at least.
Well, we started getting pictures for the Necron Release, on the 17th (I think) of October, so perhaps in a Week or so, we'll start seeing the VC leaks from White Dwarf.
As far as I can tell GW have stopped sending VC Batallions to their stores in the orders to replenish what is sold. I know of a couple of stores in the UK that haven't been sent them in their delivery despite being sold out for weeks.
Whether this means the contents is changing or the box is just being redesigned is not clear.
My guess is the Battalion will be repacked to showcase a new unit.
Wild speculation - zombies and skeletons are pretty central to the main imagery they have for Vampire Counts, so they will either drop the Ghouls or Corpse Cart and include one of the new dual kits, either the Black Knights/Wraith rider kit or the walking/winged monstrous infantry kit. Depending on the cost of those kits, both Ghouls and Corpse Cart might get dropped.
-Loki- wrote:My guess is the Battalion will be repacked to showcase a new unit.
Wild speculation - zombies and skeletons are pretty central to the main imagery they have for Vampire Counts, so they will either drop the Ghouls or Corpse Cart and include one of the new dual kits, either the Black Knights/Wraith rider kit or the walking/winged monstrous infantry kit. Depending on the cost of those kits, both Ghouls and Corpse Cart might get dropped.
At the very least, GW are pulling/not re-stocking the current battalion as the artwork will be changing to match the new army book cover, (so Little Timmy's parents/family can match the pcitures up), and they might also change the product code as well. (a given if the contents end up changing in any way)
Would be nice to get the new cav in there as an added bonus in place of the ghouls/CC though!
Most importantly though, I want our army to regain some freaking internal balance! It would be nice to expand on the required 25%+ ghoul section of the list...
I wouldn't be surprised if skeletons and zombies dropped in points. I can't see crumble changing, since Unstable is in the rulebook as a USR., so cheaper skeletons and zombies makes sense.
Ghouls, there was a rumour that they'd go to 10 points per model. That's getting pretty expensive, 300+ points for a block of 30 and a Ghast.
-Loki- wrote:
Ghouls, there was a rumour that they'd go to 10 points per model. That's getting pretty expensive, 300+ points for a block of 30 and a Ghast.
Expensive but possibly necessary. Right now they're absolutely disgusting with multiple poisoned attacks and good toughness as well as being significantly cheaper than the only really comparable unit that fills much the same role - Witch Elves.
The fact that every VC army I've come across since 8th edition has 2 Ghoul hordes in it as standard says something about the unit's effectiveness. It is possible to be too effective. I will admit. As a DE player I feel ashamed of using a Hydra. As a Lizard player I feel absolutely diabolical using a Slann (then I look at what 8th edition did to Stegadons and to the comparative points/abilities of Kroxigor when compared to Ogres, Minotaurs, Trolls and Rat Ogres and I don't feel that bad....).
-Loki- wrote:
Ghouls, there was a rumour that they'd go to 10 points per model. That's getting pretty expensive, 300+ points for a block of 30 and a Ghast.
Expensive but possibly necessary. Right now they're absolutely disgusting with multiple poisoned attacks and good toughness as well as being significantly cheaper than the only really comparable unit that fills much the same role - Witch Elves.
The fact that every VC army I've come across since 8th edition has 2 Ghoul hordes in it as standard says something about the unit's effectiveness. It is possible to be too effective. I will admit. As a DE player I feel ashamed of using a Hydra. As a Lizard player I feel absolutely diabolical using a Slann (then I look at what 8th edition did to Stegadons and to the comparative points/abilities of Kroxigor when compared to Ogres, Minotaurs, Trolls and Rat Ogres and I don't feel that bad....).
Ghouls are pretty balanced for their cost. They seem so 'broken' because they're the only option we have in our 25% required 'crap' section that can actually kill gak! 8th ed combat is all about inflicting mass damage, ghouls can do that! Keep in mind, they're only S3 and have no armour to add to their resilience. So sure, they seem very powerfull against blocks of other 'basic' core like I3/T3/5+ save troops, but against armoured targets, they tend to bounce. Alot!
If chaos gets the likes of 5pts maruaders w/great weapons, or dark elves get 'citizen levy' cheap spearmen, VC's should keep our ghouls! Now if GW is planning to curb those options when those books get their re-do, then fine, riegn in the ghouls.
Most of us VC players would be over joyed to use skeletons & zombies instead of ghoul-spam, but why should we bother when those other choices are so badly gimped by being at least twice what they should cost, AND requiring alot of additional investment like augment spells/characters to make them viable?!
Personally, I think it was a big mistake to give us ranked ghouls in the first place. They should go back to being skirmishers as it adds another viable element our army is depressingly lacking; a manouverable missile screen that can survive more than 10-20 arrows! (dire wolves suck at screening & fell bats are way too expensive for such a tactic...)
Anyways, hopefully by Monday we'll start seeing a few more rumors about the new book?!!
I'm hoping we keep our ability to re-cast spells as that's been a staple of necromancy since 4th or 5th edition!
Harry cleared a few things up in the Warseer thread, but I'm at work now so I can't quote him.
Basically, the Coven Throne and Mortis Engine aren't bloodline specific, it just ended up sounding that way when he said they looked Lahmian and Necrarch.
The Wraith riders might have been a mis-hearing. European translation is 'Dark Riders', which could just be Black Knights, so while the cavalry kit is a dual kit, exactly what it is a dual kit of is up in the air again.
Harry wrote:So what's new? Thats not in the first post?
I think it has most stuff.
Dual cavalry kit. (I hear "wraith riders" but i heard it from europe and my understanding is that the translation is black riders so I honestly have no idea what is in this kit. )
Dual Monsterous infantry kit. (Ogre size undead monstrocity (Can't be much more specific) with option to make flying undead monstrosity)
Dual 'wagon' kit (Mortis Engine or Coven Thrown ... These seem to have become very tied to bloodlines ... which I am not sure they are ... partially my fault for describing the coven thrown as a laminan passion wagon. I do not know how to describe them to you and have no idea how they are represented in the rules or if they have any connection to specific bloodlines. (As far as I know this is all just wishlisting and guesswork).
On individual minis and characters I have haerd a few (less solid) scraps of info:
I have heard about Krell but whilst there has been lots of talk about Kemmler ON HERE, I have heard nothing about him anywhere else. So as far as I know this is just wishlisting too.
I have heard about a plastic Wight King from a couple pf places. Now this could be the same mini (Krell) but I assumed Krell would be finecast. So I suspect there might also be a Wight King amongst the one piece plastics for release in January.
I heard about Isabella von Carstein too. (IMy understanding was this was a mini as well as a return to the book) I also heard about a female vampire early on. Not sure if these are the same mini or different ones but I suspect different. Again I wouldn't be surprised if we got Isabella in finecast and a generic female vampire in plastic.
(...)
Krell is defo a new mini and looks suitably hard. My understanding is that Isabella is a new mini too. But I heard less detail so less confident.
Frgt/10 wrote:I was told a brand new Krell model; not sure on Izzi
I was told 'wraith riders' along with black knights for the dual kit.
Sounds like a fairly definitive description to me.
I really am looking forward to the release, I have tried using VC many times and only won 1 game using mainly skeletons and zombies...and that was against a black powder only army of empire.
They seriously need to make skellies and zombies cheaper or better.
+1 S/T for zombies, either that or a rule similar to necrons where they continue to crawl after you with no legs etc.
Skellies need to be cheaper if they are to stay at the same stats, if not, then at least +1 T. They are undead for gak sake, they feel less pain than worshippers of nurgle, yet die way too easily.
Just my thoughts. Would be awesome if I was somehow correct XD
The only thing I need from GW in terms of undead are new skeletal steeds. The current ones are dreadful, and not in a good way, and I don't have the time to sculpt and cast my own. Not to mention having them in plastic (or at least finecast) rather than resin would be so much better due to durability.
Frgt/10 wrote:I was told 'wraith riders' along with black knights for the dual kit.
Will there be 9 of them with the option of the unit champion riding a dragon-like creature 'cause that sort of rings a few bells.....
Have given up playing WFB since the latest ed as you can't field a balanced-looking army (which is generaly how I collect armies).
Zombies esp need fixing - with every unit being able to turn now after wiping out a unit, you can't even use them to lead the opposition on a merry dance!
I'm not a very good player & even I have loads of mantic ghouls now - that's how broken VC are now.
I want to be able to field a 20-strong unit of cavalry too! Pref blood knights, but that'll never happen.
Dual 'wagon' kit (Mortis Engine or Coven Thrown ... These seem to have become very tied to bloodlines ... which I am not sure they are ... partially my fault for describing the coven thrown as a laminan passion wagon
Thrown?
Maybe this is a wagon with an undead giant on it that throws vampires around then
Aerethan wrote:I don't want to wait another month! I need them NOW!!!
I know what I'm getting for my birthday in February now though.
...Unless the new VC don't come out in jan...then all will be broken and confused for longer than we want :(
Except the masses will still scream VC are stupidly OP, a top tier army and need to be nerfed by having ghouls & grave guard removed, magic to be limited to lore of fire & all vampire stats to be reduced to 3's across the board.
Woot! Book is writen by Phil Kelly - so already things are looking up! (we won't be Crud, and no OTT fanboy background...)
Our lore attribute according to warseer is that when a spell is succefully cast, the casting wizard or another model within 12" regains a wound. TK's I think will be jealous, though I'm also taking this as a sign that the Blood Drinker is gone, or else could perhaps belong only to Vlad now.
Experiment 626 wrote:Woot! Book is writen by Phil Kelly - so already things are looking up! (we won't be Crud, and no OTT fanboy background...)
Meh the latter doesnt really apply to Fantasy anyways, cant really remember the last time there was any super biased fluff unless I'm a bit ignorant. Even Ward's stuff wasnt anything too special (actually a bit boring imo)
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