StraightSilver wrote:And Eldar will be a ways off just yet. Ther are all sorts of legal issues with Eldar and Tyranids that has meant they have been delayed, but that is a complicated issue for another thread unfortunately.
(...)
A lot of GW releases are on hold until the whole Chapterhouse mess is resolved. There are issues over copyright which until resolved mean GW won't release some stuff until it's all over which won't be any time soon. This specifically relates to two models in the Chapterhouse range, but I don't want to derail this thread with that. However GW won't release some models but not others and so is having to hold off until they can release them all as a wave.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So wait, does that mean Tyranid players should be venting at the court case for a lack of a second wave.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is that just speculation, or is that known for a fact?

I cannot obviously corroborate it, but I have heard that is the case from credible sources, but again stuff said over a pint isn't always that reliable, but these are people that would normally know.
And yes that is apparently why the Tyranid wave has been held up and also why GW may never make Thunderwolves. Basically the third party companies that got there first can now challenge GW over copyright, not something they would ever allow to happen.

MrMystery wrote:Source for that? Seems....odd. Given the time it takes GW to get from concept to shelf, I'd have thought releasing it would strengthen their case?
Unless of course Chapterhouse have suspiciously identical models? But this just my wild speculation!

As I say it may only be a rumour, and unfortunately I can't specifically say where most of my rumours have come from in case I drop anyone in it but they do work for the company and aren't a black or red shirt.
And it is specifically a couple of things, but these are fairly important ones.
It's just that Chapterhouse is attesting that it owns the copyright on a couple of GW concepts because it produced the models first. GW are challenging that but don't want to release their models in case Chapterhouse then challenge ownership.
Of course always take with a pinch of salt, but rumours are rumours I guess.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Skinnereal wrote:Names are copyrighted, but shapes aren't.
They can make a Space Marine, and call it a Galactic Soldier, but GW gets to stomp about and shout about it, like they are.

It's more complicated than that.
Take the Chapter House Doom Seer. It isn't part of the GW vs Chapter House case but it makes a good example.
There isn't a single element of the Doom Seer's design that isn't (a) different to the GW Far Seer models and (b) modelled on existing historical designs.
Despite that it is clearly a "not" Far Seer, based on its overall similarity to GW Far Seer models, if you have seen a GW Far Seer first.
The question the court must answer is whether GW's co-option of historical elements into an overall design is sufficiently original as to create an entirely new copyrightable work, and secondly if this has been achieved, have CH violated the putative copyright by copying the overall design with different individual elements.
You can see how complex these questions can be.

kitch102 wrote:Andrew Kenrick, our wonderful WD editor himself, and one of his colleagues (Phil I think? Not sure, will find his picture and confirm) hinted at a possible Tyranid release. This will not be the fabled 2 wave, but will fill a gap in the codex. However he also said "but then it may not be a gap filler, but an altogether different model with it's rule set to be released in white dwarf". Nid players... don't read too much in to this, there aren't enough facts to get excited about, but equally I don't think someone in the know such as Mr AK would say sometihng's coming when it's not. Again, no dates were hinted at.

StraightSilver wrote:Unfortunately GW were unable to release their Tervigon kit (see my other comments elsewhere) as they had intended and so are having to make do with a White Dwarf bolt on.
Essentially the WD rules will be a Tervigon and something else, and the kit will make both models, a bit like the new Ogre Kingdoms monsters.
At least this is what I have been told, don't know if it's true or not.

StraightSilver wrote:I just thought I would clarify some of my earlier posts, but of course am concsious of derailing this thread so don't want to go too off topic.

I have also decided not to post further on the subject as I do not want to add too much speculation or more importantly get anyone into trouble.

Anything I have said may well just be conjecture or the opinion of an individual, but as they are still deeply involved with the company I do not want to implicate them.

So I will expand upon my earlier comments but then leave it at that.

GW do not essentially have a problem with third party products or companies that produce them and in most cases these companies enhance GW sales as you need GW kits to use them.

The majority of third party companies have also been very careful not to use GW trademarks, or step over the line with GW's IP.

Generic backpacks or vehicle accessories do not infringe GW copyright, neither do seperate heads that can be used on GW figures for example.

Even companies who make more specific products such as Space Marine accessories have been very careful to not directly market them as such.

Galactic Space Knights are not Space Marines, and Galactic Space Knight shoulder pads with Templar Crosses are not Black Templar Shoulder pads.

However when a third party manufacturer starts selling Salamnder Shoulder pads, or Space Marine Black Templar Rhino doors they are crossing the line, but only to the point where GW would advise them to change their terminology on their online store and to stop using GW trademarks.

Unfortunately Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing).

However that still wasn't the main problem with Chapterhouse.

Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

This of course will be decided in court, but in defence of GW Chapterhouse bought this on themselves, they were given the opportunity to comply with GW's requests, but chose instead to go to court.

In terms of how this affects GW some explanation of how the company plans its releases is required.

There is a reason GW releases miniatures in waves.

It is purely a business reason dictated to them by their financial department.

A company like GW needs consistent sales throughout the year, and also needs to show year on year growth. It is a public company and therefore very conscious of its share prices, and consistent sales are by far the best way to keep investors happy.

If they release lots of cool new stuff all in one go then they willl get sales bubbles, which look bad on their financials. It is better for them to have releases spread across the year which therefore spreads their sales.

There is also the fact that they will have invested much time and care in their new releases, and to release them all in one hit menas they will not stay fresh, but also means they will need to create more new releases to spread out that year which they do not have the resources for.

It is also common to have a release planned and to hold it back until it makes more financial sense, and this is why some expected releases seem to disappear, only to reappear later when the company needs to make some sales during a slower quarter.

However releasing figures in waves can leave huge gaps in Codexes, and not every gamer is prepared to wait. This didn't used to be a problem as people would buy GW kits and convert them, but now they can simply buy them from third party companies.

GW are fullly aware of this, and are looking at the way they release things, and make changes. Dark Eldar were an example of this, with the entire range being released in a comparatively short space of time. They were released in waves, but they were very close together so that there were no long waits. Ogre Kingdoms seem to be following the same format, with their models being released over two quarters.

However this does mean that there will be sales bubbles and GW then have to make up the shortfall elsewhere. This unfortunately often results in a price increase which GW then get a lot of flak for.

And it's also possible that Dark Eldar were too successful. Their sales beat expectation, but may be the reason another release has been put on hold (won't say which one but I think it's obvious). Having all your 40K sales in one year would then result in negative growth the following year unless GW had more products to release.

As I say most of what I am saying is based on conversations with somebody who works for GW, and may just be his or her speculation or opinion but I originally posted this in the rumours section for that reason.

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

Janthkin wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

$pider wrote:I disagree. If you read the whole post you see why GW would postpone a release based on the insider information. Can't know 100% if this is true, but it makes perfect sense for a business to hold all releases until they know the results of this lawsuit. If the courts rule in favor of Chapterhouse then GW will have to rethink their entire release strategy.

Janthkin wrote:Until it is, there's not really much to discuss here.

Trasvi wrote:Personally, I don't see why GW would be delaying its release of Tyranid second wave because of CHS. My reasoning:

1) If CHS is found guilty, then that would mean that GW had the rights to produce the mini all along.
2) If CHS is found not guilty, then that would mean it is ok to produce model inspired by another company's IP, which means GW had the right to produce that mini all along.

Kroothawk wrote: GW lawyers don't know copyright and trademark laws

plastictrees wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: GW lawyers don't know copyright and trademark laws

Kroothawk has declared it to be so and so it must be so.

$pider wrote:I have to say that this does cast a negative light on Chapterhouse if all of this is true. I am not a GW fan by any means, however it is their game, their fluff and Chapterhouse wouldn't be making a dime if GW didn't exist.

Chapterhouse should have played ball, and basically done what others have. No reason to take this where it has gone. Either way I don't see this ending well for anyone.

Saldiven wrote:What sort of "play" did you have in mind. According to all the documentation posted on the subject on Dakka and elsewhere, GW demanded that CHS destroy all their molds and turn over all the revenue gained from any product that GW claimed violated their IP.

Trasvi wrote:Personally, I don't see why GW would be delaying its release of Tyranid second wave because of CHS. My reasoning:

1) If CHS is found guilty, then that would mean that GW had the rights to produce the mini all along.
2) If CHS is found not guilty, then that would mean it is ok to produce model inspired by another company's IP, which means GW had the right to produce that mini all along.

Saldiven
2011/10/04 15:16:51 Subject: Changes to GW release schedule because of Chapterhouse lawsuit

The fact of the matter is that GW could produce their own version of a Tervigon any time they wanted to with no possible problem with CHS as long as the GW Tervigon model was different from the CHS model.

Kirasu wrote:This is how markets work, one company didn't deliver what their customers wanted so the customers looked to someone else who WOULD deliver a product. GW needs to adapt better not sue people. Chapterhouse and other companies make accessories for the game, not the actual game itself. Plenty of other companies make money off someone else's IP and I don't see this level of histrionics from the original company generally

spaceelf wrote:I find this so ironic. If GW was not so tight lipped about its releases and prototypes then this would not be a problem for them at all. GW really does have a communication problem, they just do not realize it.

Janthkin wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

paulson games wrote:I'm sorry guys but this is a total chicken little panic situation, GW iis simply not releasing items because they don't think they will see an adequete return for the investment to make those models. No matter what the cheerleaders say they are about making money and they don't care care that the players have gaping holes in their lists.

ph34r wrote:I already have distain for Chapterhouse, based on their terrible website/terrible sculpt quality/overpriced bits.

The fact that they might be interfering with us players receiving actually good quality kits, is just icing on the take of why Chapterhouse is awful.

Janthkin wrote:If I was paranoid, it would look like a astroturf smearing campaign directed at CH, since the lawsuit by GW isn't going so hot.

biccat wrote:

ph34r wrote:I already have distain for Chapterhouse, based on their terrible website/terrible sculpt quality/overpriced bits.

The fact that they might be interfering with us players receiving actually good quality kits, is just icing on the take of why Chapterhouse is awful.

Funny, some people might say the exact same thing about Games Workshop.

plastictrees wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: GW lawyers don't know copyright and trademark laws

Kroothawk has declared it to be so and so it must be so.

plastictrees wrote:How would Chapterhouse going under prevent anyone from receiving good quality kits?

plastictrees wrote:The auto industry is still a terrible analogy for this whole situation, especially when were talking about companies producing models that GW has created rules for but not models for.

Merchandising for books seems much more apt. Want to produce an Obnoxious Boy Wizard action figure? Go nuts. Want to produce a Harry Potter action figure? You're going to have problems.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:So GW doesn't have the copyright laws to Tervigons? How does this even make sense. I don't understand at all how GW could get sued for making a model for their game.

fullheadofhair wrote:I am willing to bet very good money that GW lawyers have a better understanding of IP than 99.9% of people who post here.

biccat wrote:

plastictrees wrote:How would Chapterhouse going under prevent anyone from receiving good quality kits?

Tru-scale stormraven kit. Wheeled IG conversion kits. Shoulder Pads. Storm Shields. Vehicle upgrade kits.

A number of products that GW doesn't produce would become unavailable.

$pider wrote:If GW loses this one, won't it open the doors for all 3rd parties to create models based on GW's IP, and market them as unit types/names that were created by GW?

paulson games wrote:
I'm sorry guys but this is a total chicken little panic situation, GW iis simply not releasing items because they don't think they will see an adequete return for the investment to make those models. No matter what the cheerleaders say they are about making money and they don't care care that the players have gaping holes in their lists.

Flashman wrote:I honestly can't see how the CH Tervigon conversion kit is stopping GW releasing a proper Tervigon model. For starters, with respect to CH, it's just a fat Carnifex and I hope GW had a more evolved concept than that. Secondly, I don't really buy this owning of image concepts either.



Again, respect to Mantic, but High Elves much?

Plus, if this were true, then that four armed giant minotaur I see on these forums occasionally (I forget the miniature company that sculpted it) means you can kiss goodbye to ever seeing a Ghorgon release too.

plastictrees wrote:The biggest difference in your last example is that the BaneBeast (I think) minotaur isn't being advertised as a Ghorgon in any way.

Kroothawk wrote:

plastictrees wrote:The biggest difference in your last example is that the BaneBeast (I think) minotaur isn't being advertised as a Ghorgon in any way.

Fun fact: GW just hired the sculptor of the Banebeast Oxgore and cyclops

Kroothawk wrote:

plastictrees wrote:The biggest difference in your last example is that the BaneBeast (I think) minotaur isn't being advertised as a Ghorgon in any way.

Fun fact: GW just hired the sculptor of the Banebeast Oxgore and cyclops

(Secretly hoping for someone to make a non-Space Marine so GW will stop this as well )

plastictrees wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

plastictrees wrote:The biggest difference in your last example is that the BaneBeast (I think) minotaur isn't being advertised as a Ghorgon in any way.

Fun fact: GW just hired the sculptor of the Banebeast Oxgore and cyclops

(Secretly hoping for someone to make a non-Space Marine so GW will stop this as well )

Right, Aragorn Marks. Good for him, finding a steady income as a mini sculptor must be a constant challenge. It will be good to see what he can produce for GW.

$pider wrote:

plastictrees wrote:Right, Aragorn Marks. Good for him, finding a steady income as a mini sculptor must be a constant challenge. It will be good to see what he can produce for GW.

Agreed, I liked most of the stuff he did for Privateer Press. Looking forward to see what he produces for GW.

Flashman wrote:I honestly can't see how the CH Tervigon conversion kit is stopping GW releasing a proper Tervigon model. For starters, with respect to CH, it's just a fat Carnifex and I hope GW had a more evolved concept than that. Secondly, I don't really buy this owning of image concepts either.



Again, respect to Mantic, but High Elves much?

Plus, if this were true, then that four armed giant minotaur I see on these forums occasionally (I forget the miniature company that sculpted it) means you can kiss goodbye to ever seeing a Ghorgon release too.

plastictrees wrote:The auto industry is still a terrible analogy for this whole situation, especially when were talking about companies producing models that GW has created rules for but not models for.

Merchandising for books seems much more apt. Want to produce an Obnoxious Boy Wizard action figure? Go nuts. Want to produce a Harry Potter action figure? You're going to have problems.

Saldiven wrote:

plastictrees wrote:The auto industry is still a terrible analogy for this whole situation, especially when were talking about companies producing models that GW has created rules for but not models for.

Merchandising for books seems much more apt. Want to produce an Obnoxious Boy Wizard action figure? Go nuts. Want to produce a Harry Potter action figure? You're going to have problems.

The reason I bring up the automobile industry is because of how those after-market parts suppliers market their items. If you do a search for Mustang conversion kits, you will see something like this:

Body kit for a 1980 Ford Mustang GT.

You will not see something like this:

Body Kit for a 1980 year model popular US automaker's horse named grand touring vehicle.

Many people believe that companies like CHS should market their goods similarly to the second, more absurd example.

Janthkin wrote:The bolded part is my concern. We have this persistent rumor, based solely on StraightSilver's comments on a discussion over a pint with some unnamed person. From that, posters are creating negative opinions of Chapterhouse, when there is NO legal rationale to justify the concern StraightSilver mentions.

If I was paranoid, it would look like a astroturf smearing campaign directed at CH, since the lawsuit by GW isn't going so hot.

Kroothawk wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:I am willing to bet very good money that GW lawyers have a better understanding of IP than 99.9% of people who post here.

Then explain why GW lawyers charged Paulson Games for a Chapterhouse sculpt, when both companies have no connection at all and the correct sculptor is mentioned on every photo. And why GW lawyers can't even file a formally correct accusation since December 2010.

weeble1000 wrote:

plastictrees wrote:The auto industry is still a terrible analogy for this whole situation, especially when were talking about companies producing models that GW has created rules for but not models for.

Merchandising for books seems much more apt. Want to produce an Obnoxious Boy Wizard action figure? Go nuts. Want to produce a Harry Potter action figure? You're going to have problems.

And why is that, specifically? Why are third parties denied rights to create, market, and sell a Harry Potter action figure? There's an answer, but it is far from as simple as I expect you would imagine.

$pider wrote:You could easily argue that Chapterhouse is killing creativity by offering an easy answer to converting current GW kits.

Howard A Treesong wrote:So where's the actual evidence for any of this then? Before getting any more excited.

paulson games wrote:Items like the Tervigon were in GW material long before CH produced anything, therefore GW retains all of it's legal claim to make those items. (doubly so if CH is judged by the court to be producing "derivative works" of those)

If you take the time to review the items there's a bunch of that are in dispute within the case that GW has since released.

I'm sorry guys but this is a total chicken little panic situation, GW is simply not releasing items because they don't think they will see an adequate return for the investment to make those models. No matter what the cheerleaders say they are about making money and they don't care that the players have gaping holes in their lists.

Mantis840 wrote:Heres what I love about the whole thing:
If GW would have just put out all the models that their codex creators put in the books instead of playing games, pussy-footin around, and releasing only little bits at a time, then maybe complimentary companies wouldn't be having as big of an impact on the greedy mammoth as they are.

-Loki- wrote:

Mantis840 wrote:Heres what I love about the whole thing:
If GW would have just put out all the models that their codex creators put in the books instead of playing games, pussy-footin around, and releasing only little bits at a time, then maybe complimentary companies wouldn't be having as big of an impact on the greedy mammoth as they are.

I think you should maybe read the thread. Specifically StraightSilvers posts. I think it's actually in the OP. Where he explains quite clearly why GW release waves now rather than 3rd edition style dumping of the entire range with the book. It's really a pretty simple concept why they do it. It's something that might be in your wallet right now.

Mantis840 wrote:heh Loki I know exaclt why GW releases how it does , its like every other company in history, and it all boils down to Greed. Break things down to their simplist form and you'll find the root of the problem.

-Loki- wrote:

Mantis840 wrote:heh Loki I know exaclt why GW releases how it does , its like every other company in history, and it all boils down to Greed. Break things down to their simplist form and you'll find the root of the problem.

They're not a bunch of guys in a garage. They're a 130 million pound publicly traded company. Greed is a thing companies do. It's how they stay in business.

See, this is an example how unproblematic and constructive things could work out, if both parties act rationally.
Now imagine for a moment how GW could increase Storm Raven sales by offering the Chapterhouse conversion kit in the next WD.
Or Space Wolves by offering the Wolf Rhino conversion kits.
Or Space marines by featuring an article on all Salamander kits including the Salamander Rhino, Land Raider, Drop Dod, heads, shields and shoulder pads.
Just imagine this for a moment. The universe wouldn't end.

Pyriel- wrote:
Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

Kroothawk wrote:Why? At first GW lawyers thought every name, concept and design mentioned in one of their books is per se protected and nobody may do a model based on that without their explicit permission. This proved to be wrong, because only models are protected, not ideas and concepts. Now GW lawyers fear that if they release Tervigons, Thunderwolves etc, the third party companies already doing these might successfully sue them. This is probably wrong as well, but the basis of GW's future strategies. Be aware that StraightSilver mostly presents GW's point of view (plus his own of course), so that the legal situation might be totally different in reality (maybe we have to wait for the end of the Chapterhouse lawsuit). Of course nothing here is officially confirmed by GW (only a hint at the new Tyranid monster), but I am convinced that these rumours are true.

Kroothawk wrote:

StraightSilver wrote:...
GW do not essentially have a problem with third party products or companies that produce them and in most cases these companies enhance GW sales as you need GW kits to use them.

The majority of third party companies have also been very careful not to use GW trademarks, or step over the line with GW's IP.
...

However when a third party manufacturer starts selling Salamnder Shoulder pads, or Space Marine Black Templar Rhino doors they are crossing the line, but only to the point where GW would advise them to change their terminology on their online store and to stop using GW trademarks.

Unfortunately Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing).

However that still wasn't the main problem with Chapterhouse.

Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

This of course will be decided in court, but in defence of GW Chapterhouse bought this on themselves, they were given the opportunity to comply with GW's requests, but chose instead to go to court.

...

As I say most of what I am saying is based on conversations with somebody who works for GW, and may just be his or her speculation or opinion but I originally posted this in the rumours section for that reason.

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

Kanluwen wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

You consider that to be "their own advertisement"?

It's a photo from tournament results. Look on the lefthand side, where it says "Players".

Nice try though.

Pyriel- wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

You consider that to be "their own advertisement"?

It's a photo from tournament results. Look on the lefthand side, where it says "Players".

Nice try though.

I see humor is lost on one like you.

Nice try though.

fire4effekt wrote:It still looks like a GW page, and don't their webmasters need to post the pics?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Kan - Shoosh! What Pyriel was getting at was perfectly clear to the rest of us. Stop digging!

I see that you're falling back to the refuge of someone whenever they're called on their crap.

Was it? I interpret Pyriel's attempts/failures to make digs at GW the same way as Kan.


EDIT: And I wouldn't put too much stock in Pyriel's legal abilities. He tried to threaten me with legal action over PM once for posting on a forum

DarknessEternal wrote:So Chapterhouse is punishing the fanbase with their illegal business tactics. Great job guys, that'll win customers.

Pyriel- wrote:Nah, just asked you for legal permission to expose your butthurt bs and forum bullying to some Swedish academics, you know your desperate antics would make great in house study material at the uni here.
you should thank me for asking your permission, I did that out of courtesy when I really am in no need to do so.

AustonT wrote:I don't understand the random vitriol aimed at Chapterhouse.

AustonT wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:So Chapterhouse is punishing the fanbase with their illegal business tactics. Great job guys, that'll win customers.

I don't understand the random vitriol aimed at Chapterhouse. GW sued CHS, they attempted to bully yet another small studio trying to expand our hobby. I'm sure Tamiya is waiting with baited breath to sue Eduard for infringing on thier IP by selling photo etch kits specifically for thier model kits.
This entire thread is...no. This entire thread are ridiculous. We have no idea what GWs release schedule is, and now because of thier secret squirrel attitude it's worse than ever. If they were more open with what was in the works ahead of time perhaps I might lend credence to these rumors. As it is, GW started this mess with CHS if they are punishing thier customer base then it is in fact thier own fault.
At the end of the day this case will finally let every third party studio know where the line in the sand is. And they cant bully anyone else out of business with thier empty threats.
If you are angry because GW is refusing to release the Tyranid second wave firmly target your anger at GW, it's thier choice.

Pyriel- wrote:It's pretty simple really and can be summed up with: haters gonna hate.
Just scroll through the thread and check posts like ph3ars, perfect example of bitter trolling, zero contribution to the topic at hand, just the urge to lash out blindly. You enter a thread just so spew a one liner "I-hate" sentence and then disappear while constantly lurking to make yet another jab at someone or something you hate (hence him being a candidate as a fun object of interest for a psychology class), but It's how the internet works for some you know.

This whole thread ought to be locked like it was originally since it is based on 100% rumors and hearsay and on top of that is about a topic that haters are bound to flock to like flies to a turd.
See, now I´m starting to get seriously pissed too and oh boy, we know where this will end up. Maybe I get a vacation for feeding trolls but then again I would get so much more sculpting done while on one...

Pyriel-, 5 minutes ago wrote:Keep digging GW fanboy.
I distinctly remember you running away with you tail behind your legs after failing to "prove" in the CHS legal thread that making shoulerpad shapes was illegal.
So much for your legal knowledge.

Nice try though.

biccat wrote:

plastictrees wrote:How would Chapterhouse going under prevent anyone from receiving good quality kits?

Tru-scale stormraven kit. Wheeled IG conversion kits. Shoulder Pads. Storm Shields. Vehicle upgrade kits.

A number of products that GW doesn't produce would become unavailable.

Pyriel- wrote:It's pretty simple really and can be summed up with: haters gonna hate.
Just scroll through the thread and check posts like ph3ars, perfect example of bitter trolling, zero contribution to the topic at hand, just the urge to lash out blindly. You enter a thread just so spew a one liner "I-hate" sentence and then disappear while constantly lurking to make yet another jab at someone or something you hate (hence him being a candidate as a fun object of interest for a psychology class), but It's how the internet works for some you know.

StraightSilver wrote:Because the production of metal models will no longer apparently be in Lenton.

Giaour36 wrote:not true at all. Production has not moved out of Lenton.

StraightSilver wrote:GW paints are also produced overseas now, although I don't believe paints were ever produced in house but always by a third party, but I believe they used to be produced in the UK.

Giaour36 wrote:Actually the opposite is true, the overseas facility in Shanghai, which did run the paint production line, was closed towards the end of last year. The equipment was shipped to Lenton for it be managed there.

Pyriel- wrote:

It's pretty simple really and can be summed up with: haters gonna hate.
Just scroll through the thread and check posts like ph3ars, perfect example of bitter trolling, zero contribution to the topic at hand, just the urge to lash out blindly. You enter a thread just so spew a one liner "I-hate" sentence and then disappear while constantly lurking to make yet another jab at someone or something you hate (hence him being a candidate as a fun object of interest for a psychology class), but It's how the internet works for some you know.

This whole thread ought to be locked like it was originally since it is based on 100% rumors and hearsay and on top of that is about a topic that haters are bound to flock to like flies to a turd.
See, now I´m starting to get seriously pissed too and oh boy, we know where this will end up. Maybe I get a vacation for feeding trolls but then again I would get so much more sculpting done while on one...

fullheadofhair wrote:This thread is a total crock. It is 100% supposition and conjecture based of nothing reliable. Some of what is being said is almost grassy knoll stuff. Since this CH/GW issue it seems to me that Kroot really seems to be cranked up on the GW hate - and seeing as I cannot stand their incompetence either that is saying something.

I am willing to bet very good money that GW lawyers have a better understanding of IP than 99.9% of people who post here. I am also willing to bet very good money that they just expected CH to fold because of the costs involved and certainly didn't anticipate a pro-bono situation. Now they have to get themselves out of a stupid situation they have created without buggering anything else up. Often, it is the simple explantion that is the case.

I am reminded of two sayings:
Don't put down to malice what can often be put down to stupidity.

Dont' mistake incompetence for a strategy.

I agree with Janthkin. This thread is a waste and should be closed like the other CH/GW thread Kroot tried to spin off.

I also need to find another website for my lunch time. I am starting to shake my head at too many threads.

Mantis840 wrote:LOL I guess the 100-150 people in my community that do buy from Chapterhouse will just hafta make up for it.

candy.man wrote:Personally I don’t understand the vitriol towards CH either. If you don’t like a company, don’t buy from them simple as that. Why the need for a subsequent witch hunt?

Howard A Treesong wrote:It's not like other companies had to rush to release their thunderwolf conversions. Months rolled by before others were released and never a peep from GW.

Agamemnon2 wrote:From my own observations, it's because Chapterhouse, Maxmini, Kromlech et al are seen as morally repugnant parasites. Added to that the opinion that space marine shoulder pads are the lowest, least inventive form of third-party addons, and the judgement that Chapterhouse's sculpting quality is subpar in the eyes of many of its detractors, and the reactions we've seen publicly exhibited become explicable and inevitable.

Kroothawk wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:So where's the actual evidence for any of this then? Before getting any more excited.

What evidence do you usually expect of a rumour, esp. of one on an internal policy change?

We have:
A source that has been spot on before.
A recent release fitting exactly the pattern.
An expected Tyranid second wave that hasn't materialized yet.
An official hint of a new Tyranid monster with WD rules, when half the existing units of the Codex don't have a model.
Plus our knowledge of GW higher management mentality and GW lawyer competence

All this makes sense to me (that is that GW is thinking that way, not that GW's thinking fits reality ).

plastictrees wrote:So were meant to believe that GW, who is constantly berated for being incapable of leveraging new media for marketing purposes, has now deployed some sort of guerrilla smear campaign against Chapterhouse.

I'm impressed that Dakka is capable of making Chapterhouse the victim in any given scenario. You're not just suggesting that this is conjecture, but that GW is maliciously attacking the poor little bitz manufacturer through rumour. Brilliant.

Buzzsaw wrote:I realize this is mererly a paraphrasing of another poster's semi-inebriated reportage, but... taken at face value, this suggests an almost pathological paranoia at GW, to say nothing of an almost insulting evaluation of the competence of GW's attorneys.

Chapterhouse wrote:Curiously enough the only confirmed sources for this information is myself, our Attorneys and GWs Attorneys.

Agamemnon2 wrote:From my own observations, it's because Chapterhouse, Maxmini, Kromlech et al are seen as morally repugnant parasites. Added to that the opinion that space marine shoulder pads are the lowest, least inventive form of third-party addons, and the judgement that Chapterhouse's sculpting quality is subpar in the eyes of many of its detractors, and the reactions we've seen publicly exhibited become explicable and inevitable.

Ketara wrote:I must admit, your news reporting quality has just dropped a notch slightly in my eyes.....

Kilkrazy wrote:Actually it is very easy and has been done often, though normally the rumouring is positive.

I'm not saying that GW's evil minions are at work. I think the whole thing has been blown up out of all proportion by people on the internet.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

biccat wrote:

plastictrees wrote:How would Chapterhouse going under prevent anyone from receiving good quality kits?

Tru-scale stormraven kit. Wheeled IG conversion kits. Shoulder Pads. Storm Shields. Vehicle upgrade kits.

A number of products that GW doesn't produce would become unavailable.

But none of them are good quality, is the point I believe was being made.

Kilkrazy wrote:Aha.
We need a Sarcasm Orkmoticon.

Agamemnon2 wrote:From my own observations, it's because Chapterhouse, Maxmini, Kromlech et al are seen as morally repugnant parasites. Added to that the opinion that space marine shoulder pads are the lowest, least inventive form of third-party addons, and the judgement that Chapterhouse's sculpting quality is subpar in the eyes of many of its detractors, and the reactions we've seen publicly exhibited become explicable and inevitable.

Gitsplitta wrote:Actually, I've long been a critic of GW's propensity to provide rules without an accompanying figure... so if this is an off-shoot of the legal battle... I'm all for it!

90% of us Brits are probably drunks in the eyes of our American friends

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

90% of us Brits are probably drunks in the eyes of our American friends

That's because they are all pissed and seeing double.
ergo only 45% of Brits are drunks

ironicsilence wrote:I suspect the reason the previous thread was closed because there is no real debate going on here. There are a handful of decent posts followed by lots of internet rage. People sure do get worked up over little toy soldiers

Wall of text, but so is everything legal-related.

Ouze wrote:I must say that I'm also surprise they don't own a concept until there is a model released. What if the concept in question is depicted visually in the codex? If they had a drawing of a Tervigon, would it have locked down their rights then?

Ouze wrote:I must say that I'm also surprise they don't own a concept until there is a model released. What if the concept in question is depicted visually in the codex? If they had a drawing of a Tervigon, would it have locked down their rights then?

JoeyFox wrote:In context to this case.
The same applies here with Games Workshop. Lets use the Tervigon for best example.

GW Tyranid Codex has the term, description, and explanation as to what the Tervigon is. Its a copyrighted, published, mass produced work that they make and sell for a profit. It isn't something they have hidden, unreleased in their desks. The concept of a space bug isn't owned by GW. A breeding space bug isn't their concept. A Tervigon breeding bug for Tyranids, who happen to be space bugs, IS Games Workshop content. Specifically marketing as that, is infringing on GW's IP.

If they named it "Space Breeder Bug" that just happens to fit a certain Carnifex model... even marketed as a "Space Breeder Monster Bug Conversion Kit - Compadible with Sci-fi bug models after some minor conversion work." There may be some raised brows, but GW could not make a good case. Especially if they do not show it with Carnifex model in their pictures.

Ouze wrote:There sure are a lot of people who seem to think this discussion isn't worth having for whatever reason, and an awful lot of rulebreakers doing their damned best to make that a reality and get the thread locked. I'm really enjoying reading this, if for nothing else then for Aga's graceful and poetic vitriol, and would hope that law be brought to the lawless, and them alone. Locking the thread because of a few clowns is kind of a win for them.

I have to say that the whole CHS lawsuit has really surprised me in that GWS doesn't run anywhere near as tight a ship as I thought they did. Their failure to bring a proper lawsuit seems reasonably evident to even a layperson. In light of some of their past fiascos and self-inflicted wounds, I suppose it shouldn't be surprising their legal department is as inept as their marketing department, but nonetheless I expected better.

I must say that I'm also surprise they don't own a concept until there is a model released. What if the concept in question is depicted visually in the codex? If they had a drawing of a Tervigon, would it have locked down their rights then?

Janthkin wrote:
"Tervigon" might be a trademark. But trademark infringement doesn't give rise to "destroy the moulds" as relief, which is what GW has asked for in this case. At worst, there are some monetary damages available, plus forcing a name change.

Backfire wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
"Tervigon" might be a trademark. But trademark infringement doesn't give rise to "destroy the moulds" as relief, which is what GW has asked for in this case. At worst, there are some monetary damages available, plus forcing a name change.

It's an age-old aggressive negotiation tactic. Make your opening move something outrageous, and then dilute it down with "concessions" until you reach a "compromise" which roughly what you wanted in the first place.

JoeyFox wrote:
GW Tyranid Codex has the term, description, and explanation as to what the Tervigon is. Its a copyrighted, published, mass produced work that they make and sell for a profit. It isn't something they have hidden, unreleased in their desks. The concept of a space bug isn't owned by GW. A breeding space bug isn't their concept. A Tervigon breeding bug for Tyranids, who happen to be space bugs, IS Games Workshop content. Specifically marketing as that, is infringing on GW's IP.

If they named it "Space Breeder Bug" that just happens to fit a certain Carnifex model... even marketed as a "Space Breeder Monster Bug Conversion Kit - Compadible with Sci-fi bug models after some minor conversion work." There may be some raised brows, but GW could not make a good case. Especially if they do not show it with Carnifex model in their pictures.

weeble1000 wrote:These are the rights Games Workshop can expect to enjoy from its alleged ownership of the copyrighted Codex: Tyranids work.

mikhaila wrote:I don't see it as either outrageous or outside of the law. One way to have no more copies made of something is to have the molds destroyed. I found it amusing how many armorcast titans were found in a basement 'from the original print run' when apoc hit.)

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:These are the rights Games Workshop can expect to enjoy from its alleged ownership of the copyrighted Codex: Tyranids work.

Are you implying GW doesn't own the Tyranid 'dex?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:These are the rights Games Workshop can expect to enjoy from its alleged ownership of the copyrighted Codex: Tyranids work.

Are you implying GW doesn't own the Tyranid 'dex?

Janthkin wrote:This goes back to the original thread again - one of the requirements for stating a case of copyright infringement is to prove ownership of the asserted copyright. GW has yet to do this.

Buzzsaw wrote:When I said earlier that this was "an almost insulting evaluation of the competence of GW's attorneys", I meant that, as this entire discussion seemed to be based around the idea that GW's attorneys are in a panic about issues that no rational or competent attorney (in the US) would worry about.

To take but one example:
"Thunderwolves might not be released at all."

Why? What conceivable impact could the CHS lawsuit have on any planned release of thunderwolf cavalry? At this point in time, let us be clear, GW cannot prevent other companies from making riding wolves or wolf cavalry generally. This is entirely independent of the outcome of the CHS lawsuit. Linking the CHS suit to a plan to never release thunderwolf cavalry simply does not follow.

The problem with the original rumors is not the level of intoxication, but the level of credulity: StraightSilver was essentially given a list of actions that GW will take or refrain from taking and told "this is because of the CHS suit"... but none of it makes sense.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Have they patented anything? No.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) GW hires a lawyer for all its legal issues. He is not an IP specialist, not even for UK law (interesting to see why he was hired, maybe a friend of someone, maybe a gamer). His IP job consists of the legal text on the GW website (implying the IP ownership on a.o. every name and race ever mentioned in a GW book including the words dwarf, elf, human etc, evidence of unfamiliarity of IP law and a kind of omnipotency fantasy) and writing aggressive C&D letters to small companies. For a long time this worked, as everybody bowed to the mighty GW.

Kroothawk wrote:
4.) GW now realises that IP law is more complicated than their omnipotency dreams made them believe. They are now in a kind of panic and confusion. They have a job opening for an IP lawyer (fact), indicating that they realise not having enough expertise in that area.

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Have they patented anything? No.

Simply because I was curious (patent for an injection molding method). But no, they haven't patented anything about the game system.

Arschbombe wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
4.) GW now realises that IP law is more complicated than their omnipotency dreams made them believe. They are now in a kind of panic and confusion. They have a job opening for an IP lawyer (fact), indicating that they realise not having enough expertise in that area.

Or they could just have fired a previous guy after finding out how poorly things have been managed in the IP arena.

biccat wrote:But I agree otherwise, for some reason GW's case does not appear to be as good as they would want it to be. I'm not suggesting that they're incompetent, maybe they've got some brilliant strategy that simply isn't immediately apparent. A cunning plan if you will.

ooooh I really wish I hadn't started this now.

I would just like to say that my original comments were made in a thread on DakkaDakka in the news and rumours section, so it is just a rumour and not fact, but it is from a credible source, but I won't say who.

My concern is that it may have all got a bit out of hand on Dakka so I hope it doesn't cause too many ripples, or get anybody into trouble.

It is quite possible that it is all nonsense, I was simply passing on bits of a conversation that I had with an old colleague recently. I cannot state with certainty that it's true, that's why it's a rumour, but I wanted to pass it on to the community, but am now wishing I hadn't.

It was never intended to be a dig at Chapterhouse despite coming across that way, I just wanted people to be aware that there are wider implications at stake regarding the current lawsuit.

And I believe I said that it wasn't the case that GW wouldn't release some minis, just that they had been advised to hold them back on advice from their legal team.

I would also like to say that I am very fortunate to have had a long relationship with GW and still have good friends that work for the company, which means that I may come across as a bit biassed. However I don't fully support all of GW's decisions, but don't want to endanger my relationship with anyone in the company, or more importantly lose anybody their job.

What I will say though is that GW has a policy of not giving interviews, and not commenting on internet forums.

I think this is a mistake, but I can see why they do it.

The only version of events anybody has heard regarding the lawsuit is Nick from Chapterhouse', we have not heard GW's version.

I wanted to maybe put across some of the strong feeling that is felt by many of GW's design staff regarding the whole thing, but I think maybe now that may have been a mistake, so I won't comment any further.

AFAIK though the 3rd party companies didn't actually release them as "Dark Eldar Grotesques" (could be wrong on that one).

CHS released a Tervigon model and were going to release a Doom of Malantai model but decided not to once it went to court.

The Tervigon is the crux of my comments as under US copyright law there was a legal challenge over who owned the copyright and until that was resolved GW were advised to hold back their version.

This then brought into question just how much of its own IP does GW own, and so they looked at what other unreleased models were covered by other companies.

Thunderwolves may not be an issue as I don't believe any 3rd party company calls them Thunderwolves but they are one of the models that was allegedly put on the back burner for the time being.

GW's way around this is to release WD Codex additions that will allow them to release their models without actually citing their original name. So a Tervigon kit can be released bundled with something else, so that it isn't marketed as a Tervigon as such.

As I say it may well be a conspiracy theory, it isn't necesserally my theory, I was just passing on a rumour from someone I know who works for GW. This wasn't a retail staffer but somebody with close ties to the design studio and 'Evy Metal so thought they were pretty reliable.

But it was just a rumour, so please don't shoot the messenger.

I really don't want to stir the pot, and thank you for sharing this with us. But US copyright law is not applicable to this situation for the simple reason that GW is a listed UK company as such their IP is a UK IP and all breaches of said IP are subject to UK legal jurisdiction. regardless of chapterhouses location the "damage" so to speak is being done in the UK. what it may be is that the legal team has advised that certain kits are put on hold untill an outcome is reached to prevent them releasing a kit that looks like a tervigon and is similar enough to the CHS one that it could potentially open them up to counter legalities if they were to loose this case, as such it would be legaly advisable to withold produciton of said kit until the case has be finished. also means that they'll get a greater damages pay out i they win.

StraightSilver wrote:You see Nick that's the problem though, GW won't ever comment on this so we will never get an official answer or response from them, neither would they ever comment on an internet forum.

So we only ever get the Chaptehouse point of view.

I am not for one minute saying that you are not telling the truth, but that if I am biased so are you.

And as for being anonymous, there's no great secret in that, I am quite well known within the 40K community under the name StraightSilver so I'm not that anonymous.

Of course I cannot and will not name my source as he could lose his job over it, but I will say that through him I am able to guage the opinion of some very well known GW designers and writers and the feeling from their point of view is that this whole situation simply should have been avoided.

And if I recall your own news section on your website notified your customers that GW had tried to get you to stop using GW trademarks and you openly defied them.

It's interesting though that since going to court the CHS website has changed considerably and no longer uses GW trademarks so blatantly.

As I say I don't want to enter a flamewar with CHS, and have nothing against the guys personally, but we do only ever hear their version of what's going on so I thought I would try to even the balance.

Admittedly that has kind of back fired so I wish now I hadn't, but that's the internet for you isn't it?

Nick wrote:OK, I will admit to seeing your rumor post as somewhat of an attack (this coupled with your post in warseer made it appear this way). This goes for the other posters as well, I apologize for coming across defensive.

Obviously I cant get into any details about pretty much anything at this time with the case proceeding as it is (slowly I can say). This is frustrating to say the least..

I will say that I have been pretty transparent in the past regarding my decisions, where from the GW side we really have no idea what they are thinking or doing.

In a perfect world, everyone would see what I have seen from the inside regarding the case and the actions of GWs legal team (I think some people have said despicable and underhanded). Do I feel my side is the white knight and correct, yeah I do, and I think the ability of my attorneys to point out why and GWs attorneys inability to support their allegations lead credence to our actions.

In any case, this is the most I have responded in the past few months to the case. I do get RATHER upset when people misquote me though regarding facts. This goes rumored GW attempts to work with us previously and our products names and releases (I think BitsBarn stated we had Ultramarine and Blood Angel named products which we never did because GW marketed those already, IE Trademark and Copyright laws..).

In any case I will get back to getting new kits out to people... Ill have photos of a Imperial Jetbike and rider conversion kit here this week if I stay on schedule.

Nick - Chapterhousestudios.com

StraightSilver wrote:I also never meant to cause any offense, and must admit am probably a little naive when it comes to internet forums.

I never for a minute thought that a comment i made on a thread elsewhere would end up spawning it's own thread elsehwere but in hindsight should have expected that.

I certainly didn't want to create a s*%$storm in the process and apologise for that.

I thought I was simply passing on rumours, as that's what the rumours threads were for, there was certainly nothing malicious in my intentions and I am most definitely not a GW agent spreading a smear campaign as others have stated.

I have also been called a drunk on other forums too, although that bit might be true...

So essentially, this was a rumour I heard, I can't corroborate it as fact because I can't name my source and didn't mean to stir up such a hornet's nest.

However I fail to see why my opinion is any less valid than anybody else', if I could tell you all the facts I would but I can't.

StraightSilver wrote:The best way forward for GW in my opinion would just be to stop using Codexes, problem solved.

If the rules were included with the models then units could be released whenever they wanted, and there would be no problems with gaps in the codex.

A lot of companies use army cards with the rules and stats on them, which would be fine for GW as they use a lot of USRs now.

The reason I suspect they don't do this is due to edition changes. If they boxed stock with the army cards inside and the rules changed they would have to rebox all their old stock.

Howard A Treesong wrote:That's because the can't. I'm not sure If I recall exactly, but I thought I read way back when the CHS thing started that you can't even protect rules systems in the US.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I was referring to the case at hand as nothing we've discussed could conceivably be covered by patent. I didn't bother to check if they held any , but injections plastic moulding apparatus is an ideal thing for a patent. Patents are powerful things, but they are for novel processes and inventions and simply not applicable to the CHS challenge.

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW's case hangs on copyrights and trademarks... mostly copyrights I imagine because they don't appear to have trademarked that much stuff.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Have they patented anything? No.

Simply because I was curious (patent for an injection molding method). But no, they haven't patented anything about the game system.

That's because the can't. I'm not sure If I recall exactly, but I thought I read way back when the CHS thing started that you can't even protect rules systems in the US.

spaceelf wrote:I find this so ironic. If GW was not so tight lipped about its releases and prototypes then this would not be a problem for them at all. GW really does have a communication problem, they just do not realize it.

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:That's because the can't. I'm not sure If I recall exactly, but I thought I read way back when the CHS thing started that you can't even protect rules systems in the US.

I'd probably have to dig a bit, but I'm pretty sure you can patent game rules. I think there would have to be some physical component of the game to avoid the "abstract idea" limitation. (35 USC 101 rejection, nonpatentable subject matter, see Bilski)

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW's case hangs on copyrights and trademarks... mostly copyrights I imagine because they don't appear to have trademarked that much stuff.

Unless they've amended their complaint it's all about copyrights. Trademarks and copyrights don't need to be registered in order to be protected. Even if GW hasn't received a registered trademark for the term "Space Marine Rhino," they are making and selling goods under that mark and to sell a toy under that name would be trademark infringement.

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW's case hangs on copyrights and trademarks... mostly copyrights I imagine because they don't appear to have trademarked that much stuff.

Unless they've amended their complaint it's all about copyrights. Trademarks and copyrights don't need to be registered in order to be protected. Even if GW hasn't received a registered trademark for the term "Space Marine Rhino," they are making and selling goods under that mark and to sell a toy under that name would be trademark infringement.

mikhaila wrote:Definitely not true. Look at Dungeons and Dragons, and the OGL that WOTC allowed people to publish under for version 3.0 and 3.5, and how they tightened that up with 4th edition and companies had to purchase a liscenese to product products for it. And WOTC has got copyrights on all the MTG rules and mechanics.

1. A method of playing games involving two or more players, the method being suitable for games having rules for game play that includes instructions on drawing, playing, and discarding game components, and a reservoir of multiple copies of a plurality of game components, the method comprising the steps of:
each player constructing their own library of a predetermined number of game components by examining and selecting game components from the reservoir of game components;
each player obtaining an initial hand of a predetermined number of game components by shuffling the library of game components and drawing at random game components from the player's library of game components; and
each player executing turns in sequence with other players by drawing, playing, and discarding game components in accordance with the rules until the game ends, said step of executing a turn comprises:
(a) making one or more game components from the player's hand of game components available for play by taking the one or more game components from the player's hand and placing the one or more game components on a playing surface; and
(b) bringing into play one or more of the available game components by: (i) selecting one or more game components; and (ii) designating the one or more game components being brought into play by rotating the one or more game components from an original orientation to a second orientation.

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW. If CHS have caused a slow down/halt in GW product release because they want to be bloody minded and not play the game like other 3rd parties. They deserve all the hate that will be heading their way. CHS are scoring a massive own goal ultimately and I hope they pay the price for their stupidity. No love for CHS from this callsign at this point in time.

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

Any judge in the USA with half a brain is applying the relevant statutes, and not relying on the sort of gut hatred your post seems to indicate.

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

Any judge in the USA with half a brain is applying the relevant statutes, and not relying on the sort of gut hatred your post seems to indicate.

Chimaera wrote:Correct me if I have this wrong but GW are happy to tolerate 3rd parties jumping on the badwagon so long as they make no direct reference to the IP in the game. Why is it CHS feel this is an unacceptable approach.

Chimaera wrote:Correct me if I have this wrong but GW are happy to tolerate 3rd parties jumping on the badwagon so long as they make no direct reference to the IP in the game. Why is it CHS feel this is an unacceptable approach.

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Correct me if I have this wrong but GW are happy to tolerate 3rd parties jumping on the badwagon so long as they make no direct reference to the IP in the game. Why is it CHS feel this is an unacceptable approach.

And where do you get this from? GW has certainly never announced such a policy, and has in the past sent out Cease & Desist letters to companies making figures that aren't labeled with any 40k/Fantasy-related name.

plastictrees wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

Any judge in the USA with half a brain is applying the relevant statutes, and not relying on the sort of gut hatred your post seems to indicate.

"Gut hatred" isn't very helpful. No-one has an innate need to dislike any given mini/bitz manufacturer. They react to decisions those manufacturers have made and actions they've taken and decide how they feel about them. People seem to have a lot of problems with people expressing their personal reactions to the situation because they seem to think that these threads are some sort of proxy court where only dakkas finest legal minds can comment. I'm pretty sure people can distinguish between informed legal commentary and personal opinion without anyone screeching about "haters", "fanboys", or "apologists".

Chimaera wrote:If CHS have caused a slow down/halt in GW product release because they want to be bloody minded and not play the game like other 3rd parties. They deserve all the hate that will be heading their way. CHS are scoring a massive own goal ultimately and I hope they pay the price for their stupidity. No love for CHS from this callsign at this point in time.

Howard A Treesong wrote: GW could have avoided all this by not attempting to sue.

inquisitorlewis wrote:Why couldnt have GW just released these models upon launch, or soon afterwards. This all would have been unnecessary. SMH.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: GW could have avoided all this by not attempting to sue.

If you do not attempt to maintain control of your intellectual property, you are not allowed to claim it. They were forced into action by the law.

Chimaera wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Correct me if I have this wrong but GW are happy to tolerate 3rd parties jumping on the badwagon so long as they make no direct reference to the IP in the game. Why is it CHS feel this is an unacceptable approach.

And where do you get this from? GW has certainly never announced such a policy, and has in the past sent out Cease & Desist letters to companies making figures that aren't labeled with any 40k/Fantasy-related name.

This thread actually. It's part of the very first post. If it is incorrect then maybe it should be removed?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: GW could have avoided all this by not attempting to sue.

If you do not attempt to maintain control of your intellectual property, you are not allowed to claim it. They were forced into action by the law.

PhantomViper wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Correct me if I have this wrong but GW are happy to tolerate 3rd parties jumping on the badwagon so long as they make no direct reference to the IP in the game. Why is it CHS feel this is an unacceptable approach.

And where do you get this from? GW has certainly never announced such a policy, and has in the past sent out Cease & Desist letters to companies making figures that aren't labeled with any 40k/Fantasy-related name.

This thread actually. It's part of the very first post. If it is incorrect then maybe it should be removed?

As your punishment, you are now required to read all 46 pages of this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355433.page

By the end of it you may realise that GW is actually in the wrong on this one (as usual). You may also try and think for yourself for 5 minutes and realise that the OP's claims are completely ridiculous and if by any chance they are proven to be correct, then GW's legal advice team have completely "lost it" and aren't fit even to interpret the INAT FAQ, let alone US copyright law...


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DarknessEternal wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote: GW could have avoided all this by not attempting to sue.

If you do not attempt to maintain control of your intellectual property, you are not allowed to claim it. They were forced into action by the law.

Care to back it up with some actual laws? I find it very hard to understand how that can be true when so many rip-offs of actual brands and products exist in the world (not saying that CHS work is a rip-off, IMO they full fill a market need that GW doesn't even recognize was there to begin with).

Chimaera wrote:Maybe my original post was a bit animated but it doesn't seem to demand an outrageous amount of logic when viewing the CHS website to see what is before your eyes.

Samsumg VS Apple is a pretty big ongoing one. While it's all around patents you could argue that both companies are also trying to fulfill a need I guess. Actually the film and music industry is also a massive example of IP infringement in recent years against online file sharing and piracy. Again you could argue these sites were also fulfilling a need but they also cause major damage to the industries concerned.

Kroothawk wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:When I said earlier that this was "an almost insulting evaluation of the competence of GW's attorneys", I meant that, as this entire discussion seemed to be based around the idea that GW's attorneys are in a panic about issues that no rational or competent attorney (in the US) would worry about.

To take but one example:
"Thunderwolves might not be released at all."

Why? What conceivable impact could the CHS lawsuit have on any planned release of thunderwolf cavalry? At this point in time, let us be clear, GW cannot prevent other companies from making riding wolves or wolf cavalry generally. This is entirely independent of the outcome of the CHS lawsuit. Linking the CHS suit to a plan to never release thunderwolf cavalry simply does not follow.

The problem with the original rumors is not the level of intoxication, but the level of credulity: StraightSilver was essentially given a list of actions that GW will take or refrain from taking and told "this is because of the CHS suit"... but none of it makes sense.

Well, this is what I think, happened:

...So while formally the Chapterhouse lawsuit doesn't decide on GW's right to make a thunderwolf model (Chapterhouse doesn't make thunderwolves BTW, but almost everybody else does ), it is the trigger for GW's current state of panic/paranoia and set of irrational

This is how I see this development based on the few information that we have. But it would explain GW's behavior and I see no contradicting facts. That's why I wanted a public discussion of these rumours.

Smitty0305 wrote:Patent Law says you can patent an Idea.

mikhaila wrote:
Definitely not true. Look at Dungeons and Dragons, and the OGL that WOTC allowed people to publish under for version 3.0 and 3.5, and how they tightened that up with 4th edition and companies had to purchase a liscenese to product products for it. And WOTC has got copyrights on all the MTG rules and mechanics.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Anyway as we are finding out now, GW don't seem so sure what they have rights over...

bolo wrote:This whole thread is continuing from a theory just he has put forward. I'm not sure why. The one non-hobby (and his hobby stuff is actually really cool!) statement he's made has been proven to be the completely wrong.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That is okay, that is why the Mods have moved the thread to Discussions.

mikhaila wrote:Definitely not true. Look at Dungeons and Dragons, and the OGL that WOTC allowed people to publish under for version 3.0 and 3.5, and how they tightened that up with 4th edition and companies had to purchase a liscenese to product products for it. And WOTC has got copyrights on all the MTG rules and mechanics.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I'm not waiting 10 years for GW to make a model.

If they won't make Las/Plas I'll buy it.

If they won't make Thunder Wolfs, I'll buy them too.

If a 3rd party is making money instead of GW, I'd suggest they step up their game in a the innovation department, not the legal battlefield. If I can't buy it from Chapterhouse I'll order it from China.

This thread was started here and not moved by the mods.

timd wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Anyway as we are finding out now, GW don't seem so sure what they have rights over...

This is going to be the interesting thing to watch.

In addition to to specifying how their copyrights have been infringed for each item they challenge, the are going to have to prove, in a court of law, that they own those copyrights to begin with, and that they are not derivative from previous copyrighted stuff or any other source (historical, etc.). If the defense can show that any of the features GW is challenging came from a non-GW source, then GW is going to have a hard time proving that they own the copyright to that item. (IANAL so this probably could be worded better, so have at it)

The old saw that GW steals ideas from everywhere may well get tested in this case.

Tim

notprop wrote:What really makes me groan about all of this is how easily it could have been avoided. If CHS would have changed their site to its current format on approach by GW rather than waiting until they were heading towards court, I believe that we woudn't have to have these labourious threads and the artificial GW/CHS divide that we seem to be creating on Dakka.

notprop wrote:I think the proof in that pudding Howard is that GW have not been approached, let alone sued for any of the things that you identify.

What really makes me groan about all of this is how easily it could have been avoided. If CHS would have changed their site to its current format on approach by GW rather than waiting until they were heading towards court, I believe that we woudn't have to have these labourious threads and the artificial GW/CHS divide that we seem to be creating on Dakka.

Trasvi wrote:

notprop wrote:What really makes me groan about all of this is how easily it could have been avoided. If CHS would have changed their site to its current format on approach by GW rather than waiting until they were heading towards court, I believe that we woudn't have to have these labourious threads and the artificial GW/CHS divide that we seem to be creating on Dakka.

"You could have avoided a fight with the school bully if you just gave him your lunch money like everyone else does..."
GW have some fairly outrageous, all-encompassing claims on what copyrights and trademarks they own. CHS called their bluff and now GW is fighting a battle they've never fought before. And that is evident by the fact that, 10 months after filing the suit, GW still has yet to specify their claims or even prove ownership of works they claim are infringed.

Trasvi wrote:

notprop wrote:What really makes me groan about all of this is how easily it could have been avoided. If CHS would have changed their site to its current format on approach by GW rather than waiting until they were heading towards court, I believe that we woudn't have to have these labourious threads and the artificial GW/CHS divide that we seem to be creating on Dakka.

"You could have avoided a fight with the school bully if you just gave him your lunch money like everyone else does..."
GW have some fairly outrageous, all-encompassing claims on what copyrights and trademarks they own. CHS called their bluff and now GW is fighting a battle they've never fought before. And that is evident by the fact that, 10 months after filing the suit, GW still has yet to specify their claims or even prove ownership of works they claim are infringed.

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

DarknessEternal wrote:
If you do not attempt to maintain control of your intellectual property, you are not allowed to claim it. They were forced into action by the law.

notprop wrote:I think the proof in that pudding Howard is that GW have not been approached, let alone sued for any of the things that you identify.

What really makes me groan about all of this is how easily it could have been avoided. If CHS would have changed their site to its current format on approach by GW rather than waiting until they were heading towards court, I believe that we woudn't have to have these labourious threads and the artificial GW/CHS divide that we seem to be creating on Dakka.

Sanon wrote:Is GW really this sloppy?

Ian Sturrock wrote:

The OGL/d20 stuff with D&D 3/3.5 Edition is an interesting case. Although WotC deliberately opened up the rules, including allowing re-use of their copyrighted wording of many of the rules, it could be argued that no 3rd party d20 publishers actually needed licences unless they chose to use said exact wording, and unless they wanted to say outright "suitable for use with D&D 3". By signing up to a licence with WotC, they got certain benefits (no need to rewrite the rules; explicit agreement that they could claim compatibility) but also agreed to WotC's terms, including the term that WotC could terminate the contract at will, and the decency terms (introduced after the first d20 erotica book... I kid you not).

At least a couple of companies -- notably Necromancer Games -- actually produced d20-compatible material without a licence, quite successfully and without ever being sued by WotC.

Some companies happily used others' new game rules, even the ones that weren't designated Open Content, just by tweaking the wording slightly.

The tapping mechanic is indeed a patent of WotC's, though personally I doubt it would hold up to serious legal challenge. All it really does is act as a marker that that particular playing piece has been used, which to my mind is not especially innovative -- it's an obvious need in any game in which you can activate more than one playing piece in your turn.

notprop wrote:With you most of the way there Sid, right up until GW embarrasing themselves in court?

I have seen this allot on Dakka and still don't see it. I'm not saying that GW will win/lose or whatever but just because it wasn't a straight 6 (read "home run" in the colonies ) why are GW somehow failing?

I see this case as interesting since it is testing a grey area that might have some significant impact on gaming/modelling in general, but the whole yah-boo-sucks GW angle not so much.

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

notprop wrote:What I was originally getting at was that there was a point where this could have been resolved easily and without any harm to the involved parties. CHS were not as far as I can remember asked to close down, merely alter thier website.

The C&D letters that most seem to take such extreme objection to, certainly in the ones that I have seen, take the form of requesting changes or non-use of GW related terms. These have been sent either after or inconjunction with phone calls to explain the situation and what remdiation can be done.

Sanon wrote:

People laugh from the sidelines and play something else.

Saldiven wrote:..............
You're missing the point. CHS had legal representation that told them that CHS's business model was completely legal. GW sends a C&D that, according to CHS's councel, had no enforceable legal basis.

Why should CHS roll over when they honestly believe that they are in the right?

And, as we're seeing with the progression of the court case, it is becoming more and more apparent that CHS's original councel was correct.

nkelsch wrote:

Sanon wrote:

People laugh from the sidelines and play something else.

I will believe it when I see it. Even the biggest GW haters on this site can constantly be caught with snorting the plasticrack where they say "I will never by GW again" and in the same day post in another thread "oh, that looks great, I will buy two of them!" Addictions are hell.

Since this is a game that requires other people to play it in order to have games, unless EVERYONE shifts to a new game, no one will shift to a new game. This is why in some areas it is hard to play anything but GW.

Whatever actions GW takes that 'harms' gamers, the gamers will still accept it with open arms and fork over fist-fulls of money.

Phototoxin wrote:Any ideas on an expected end date for this lawsuit? I thought there is a right to a speedy trial in the US?

AndrewC wrote:....................

I think what Sid is getting at, and using your analogy, is that GW has always implied/stated that it will hit a straight 6 if ever it has to go to court.

I would, however, disagree with you on the 'might have', it will have a significant impact on the hobby. If GW lose then the other 3rd party companies will become more agressive in their marketing, website forums may begin to spring up again, eg the Bloodbowl fiasco. If GWs wins, for example the Space Marine colour chart become legally recognised, then painting companies are screwed; Customer "I want a dozen Ultramrines?" Painter "Sorry Blue marines with Omega signs are GW IP, I can't paint them that colour"

I don't think that CHS has done anything 'more' wrong than any other company, they used/tried to use GW Copyright under 'fair use' "These parts fit GW Space Marines" and were more obvious than others. As such were the company with its' head farthest over the parapet. To GW they were the easiest company to sue.
..........................

notprop wrote:I don't think I was.

GW asked CHS to change aspects of their site.

CHS didn't and sought legal representation, got it and then changed their site.

A C&D is just a Notice that says here is the situation, [please] could you remedy this by X. Of course its not enforcable, it is advisory in its nature.

The point I was trying to make (however moot at this point in time) was; why not cut out the legal bit and change the site in the first place rather than getting a bee in your bonnet? Seems like allot less hassle to work with GW, a company that CHS states it likes than to go down this route.

notprop wrote:
GW asked CHS to change aspects of their site.

CHS didn't and sought legal representation, got it and then changed their site.

A C&D is just a Notice that says here is the situation, [please] could you remedy this by X. Of course its not enforcable, it is advisory in its nature.

The point I was trying to make (however moot at this point in time) was; why not cut out the legal bit and change the site in the first place rather than getting a bee in your bonnet? Seems like allot less hassle to work with GW, a company that CHS states it likes than to go down this route.

One potential upshot of this in the event that GW wins, is that rather than having independent companies making various bits with tacit approval from GW (the sort of Gentlemans agreement that has seen many companies making GW related components), this may create the opposite situation where GW now has the enforcable position to stop this sort of activity for the whole 3rd party market.

It would be unfortunate if this transpired, however unlikely. I only say this as I just don't see GW as the feckless nincompoops that some would suggest that they are. They are a PLC, I do not imagine that they flitter money away on trivial legal matters without a sound basis. [Of course they might be, which is what makes this all so compelling!]

notprop wrote:
I am not aware of GW making a statement or even referring to this case, so can you point me to where GW have suggested it was going to be an easy win? As I say I just can't see (being a corporate lapdog myself ) anyone taking action with such huge implied results so lightly.

I agree that CHS hasn't done that much wrong, but when faced with GW pointing out a few changes so that they might cohabit the same arena, CHS figuratively stuck two fingers up to the man. Then acquiesced to the same request once they had lawyers, with the potential added bonus that they could create a legal position where they have made their own business (and others - Blue marine painters ltd) untenable.

Janthkin wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Correct me if I have this wrong but GW are happy to tolerate 3rd parties jumping on the badwagon so long as they make no direct reference to the IP in the game. Why is it CHS feel this is an unacceptable approach.

And where do you get this from? GW has certainly never announced such a policy, and has in the past sent out Cease & Desist letters to companies making figures that aren't labeled with any 40k/Fantasy-related name.

notprop wrote:I am not aware of GW making a statement or even referring to this case, so can you point me to where GW have suggested it was going to be an easy win?

notprop wrote:

I don't think I was.

GW asked CHS to change aspects of their site.

CHS didn't and sought legal representation, got it and then changed their site.

A C&D is just a Notice that says here is the situation, [please] could you remedy this by X. Of course its not enforcable, it is advisory in its nature.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Actually, I'd say GW has no problem with 3rd parties jumping on their wagon: look at Avatars of War. Not only do they continue making OBVIOUS GW-based models, one of the GW sculptors used an AoW warrior priest for his War Altar conversion. No, I'm not gonna spend a long time looking up a link that was on their homepage over a year ago, but there was a fairly big deal made about it then. I'm all for it, I use AoW characters in my armies, but AoW doesn't call anything by it's GW name, so the appearance is the same, but the name is different.

timetowaste85 wrote:
Actually, I'd say GW has no problem with 3rd parties jumping on their wagon: look at Avatars of War. Not only do they continue making OBVIOUS GW-based models, one of the GW sculptors used an AoW warrior priest for his War Altar conversion. No, I'm not gonna spend a long time looking up a link that was on their homepage over a year ago, but there was a fairly big deal made about it then. I'm all for it, I use AoW characters in my armies, but AoW doesn't call anything by it's GW name, so the appearance is the same, but the name is different.

Platuan4th wrote: Chapterhouse has the same "appearance is the same, but the name is different" going for it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Platuan4th wrote: Chapterhouse has the same "appearance is the same, but the name is different" going for it.

Tervigon Kit to upgrade Carnifex
Yes, shockingly different.

I can't imagine how anyone would see the connection to GW models.

notprop wrote:

A C&D is just a Notice that says here is the situation, [please] could you remedy this by X. Of course its not enforcable, it is advisory in its nature.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Platuan4th wrote: Chapterhouse has the same "appearance is the same, but the name is different" going for it.

Tervigon Kit to upgrade Carnifex
Yes, shockingly different.

I can't imagine how anyone would see the connection to GW models.

MightyGodzilla wrote:Funny stuff. Without knowing anything of the AoW company history. The first time that I saw an Avatar of War miniature or went to the AoW website to window shop I never EVER made a connection to GW. Their miniatures are just so damn good they leave most things put out by GW in their wake.

olympia wrote:Typically the cease-and-desist bully tactic works only if the people lack representation.

notprop wrote:With you most of the way there Sid, right up until GW embarrasing themselves in court?

Chimaera wrote:Any judge in the USA with half a brain could identify CHS are ripping the IP from GW.

Platuan4th wrote:They're doing the exact same thing(other than CH also produces conversion kits) with regards to GW's IP, yet somehow one is sued and vilified in the community and one is slipped past and hailed as the epitome of an army's vision of what their Heroes and Lords should look like in that same community. Hell, the Avatars may as well say "Not Chaos Lord" and "Not Vampire Count", the names they're given are all but the name of GW's unit entries.

AndrewC wrote:

I do agree with Sid that GW have not exactly lived up to their claims of superiority if after 10 months they can't point to X products and say how it infringes, and against which of their own product it copies.

Phototoxin wrote:Any ideas on an expected end date for this lawsuit? I thought there is a right to a speedy trial in the US?

Ian Sturrock wrote:The Avatars of War stuff is basically generic fantasy, influenced by the same Moorcock-style concepts that influenced GW. There's no real way GW would have a case against them on the basis of those 3 figures -- it's not like GW invented daemons (or indeed that spelling) or chaos. Maybe the marauder, but even that's very shaky (and could be dealt with by AoW changing the name to "barbarian").

Sidstyler wrote:We're saying they might have issues because of the word "marauder"? Seriously? Why would they need to change the name, marauder basically is just another word for barbarian...you can't do that, you can't come up with a generic name for a fictional unit of soldiers, like calling them literally "barbarians", and then sue the gak out of everyone who also makes barbarians because you decided you wanted to start making them, too.