Hello Dakka. Now, I recently got White Dwarf 380, and decided to ask what your opinion of the new Sisters of Battle rules are. So, what do you think of them?
It's good for a laugh when you realize rules differ among the first and second half of the book. As if the entire release was rushed.. it's even worse when the rules between the two halves dont even match up!
I'll have a better run-down once I've played a bit more with them, but some things have worked and not worked so far. All in all, it isn't actually that much different when it hits the table. We got crappier in some respects (squad/wargear flexibility, Faith, etc...) but we're much better at Close Combat than we used to be and can still dish out a lot of punishment with the same short-range firepower tactics.
Really, was it ever about being on par with Grey Knights? Sisters players know what we're doing: tactics before stats. I think we're still perfectly viable, just not point and click. Fine with me. When I beat my opponent, he can't cry 'cheese' and it will be that much more satisfying. Given the cost of the models, nobody is going to be starting up a new army any time soon and the most of the players will be Sisters stalwarts who, like me, will find that they still handle fine, they just aren't flashy on paper. I am trying out a few neat tricks though, this weekend involving the new unit options. They're there if you look for them; not much, but potentially fun surprises.
The main concern I have is that, despite saying "read all about the new miniatures and rules" on the bleeding cover, they didn't release any! It's a bit of a joke that the prices went up. If I wanna update my squad to have another flamer, it'll cost me $20 for the single model. That's far more crippling to honing a quality list than the rules or general.
All this time I've been trying to convince myself that it was attention being paid to my favored army, and that it was good because of that.
But... that's pretty much the best thing I've been able to say about it, though I do like that Celestine is a viable option now.
Lots of stuff got nerfed, lots of nifty stuff got taken away. We no longer have our Blessed Weapons - which I really enjoyed using - or our Book of St. Lucius - which I managed to get by without using for the nearly 2 years I'd been playing Sisters of Battle, and had JUST started to get into using. I miss the Allies rules, as it had meant I could support my Hellfire Guard - or maybe even "my" Hellfire Marines - with my Sisters of the Flame. I liked the concept of Imperial Guard backed up by Sisters of Battle, as the mix of aesthetics was very pleasant.
I like that Retributors are a bit more useful now, as I did always like Retributors with Heavy Bolters - one of my first WH40kRPs cast me as a Sister Superior leading a squad of Retributors with Heavy Bolters.
The main thing I don't like is the lack of variety of "viable" builds. It's basically Jacobus+posse, a few squads of Battle Sisters, and max out Dominions/Seraphim and Exorcists. Any leftover points then go into paying for Saint Celestine and more scoring Troops units. It's just very bland to have such minor variations on the current lists - though I'll admit that my knowledge is almost a month old - and to have very nifty stuff like Repentia and Celestians be considered useless.
I'll admit I don't have to follow the current lists, because I really only play with one person who lets me write all her lists. But still, I strive to improve myself where I can, and that includes optimizing my lists - and my opponent's lists.
It's part of what made me consider starting up with a second game system - that game system was based around synergy, where everything could be potentially useful, so long as the strategy employed in game and in choosing units was internally consistent and a viable strategy.
It's not that I have something against the somewhat limited choices of Sisters units, as they cover the fundamentals - basic squads, fast squads, special weapons squads, heavy weapons squads, elite squads, command squads, and close combat squads. I'd prefer if there were really a difficult choice in what to bring that depended upon your preferred playstyle.
If that was too long to get a coherent point out of, I'll just say that I don't like the rules changes much anymore. (As we had lots of useful stuff taken away or nerfed and the useful stuff that was added - Jacobus and Battle Conclaves - are things that we're likely to see in each and every Sisters army from now till a proper Codex.)
Repentia are far from useless, you should give them a try. Running them behind rhinos provides some pretty scary-cool support to your Battle Sisters. I've only played a handful of games myself, but they exceeded expectations.
Johan Chill wrote:Repentia are far from useless, you should give them a try. Running them behind rhinos provides some pretty scary-cool support to your Battle Sisters. I've only played a handful of games myself, but they exceeded expectations.
Ahh, excellent, because I went back and wrote up a non-competitive list to play against my regular opponent's non-competitive list, and mine included Repentia. ^_^
I've been a Sisters players ever since I started playing 40K about 4 years ago right before 5th edition came out. I have to say the codex is not as good as the previous codex. There are some gems to be found in it for sure, but it does not rate up against other 5th edition codices. I could list my all specific gripes, but the list is long and I would hate to bore you all. Instead I will say what I do like. Dominions are great especially if you can get their act of faith to work. I like their ability to Scout move or Outflank, when combined with Exorcists they can really help demech an opponent quickly. The Battle Conclave is also ace. Sisters have long needed a very killy close combat unit. My only real lament about it is the 75 point minimum tax on the unit though I do wish it was actual Sisters unit that coudl do that kind of damage in close combat.
Ultimately though, this was a poor outing for the new codex. Their was nothing in the codex that made me say "Wow!" like in every other new 5th edition codex. Its not exciting, new, or interesting in the least bit. I'm goign to play it, but I'm not happy about what we have. It seems like most of the cool stuff in the old codex was removed and Sisters were turned into marines ligth for real. They don't even seem to have a real identity in game or do anything particularly well.
They are a solid army that is more competitive than they've ever been. Although they have only two strong builds (pretty much mech and horde), either is capable of winning against any matchup and two good builds is more than some armies.
Not quite solid, though there were a few bad trade offs this new codex only seems to try to promote the existing Immolator spam armies. Then at the same time tries to drive away from it with the changes to it...
I'm not a fan to all the changes in the book, but there are some alright ones like the cheaper vehicles, 6+ save on the vehicles and free smoke launchers. Basically the most noticeable is the SoB rhino is better than it was...
The main problem with it would be to expect something so great after so long, and out of a WD update too. More or less it seems it existed solely to give the GK book pure control of the Inquisition and at the same time remove some things the non-SoB players would be complaining about (*cough*BoSL*cough*).
Though I'll admit I'd rather they ass around with the faith system in a WD codex rather than have a mangled faith system for the next 10 years.
DarknessEternal wrote:They are a solid army that is more competitive than they've ever been. Although they have only two strong builds (pretty much mech and horde), either is capable of winning against any matchup and two good builds is more than some armies.
Most Sisters units crumble in assault like never before. I'm not just armchairing it either, I have actually played with this new codex more than a few times. I've won with as well as lost. I'm not saying it's that its hopelessly crippled but its much harder to win with it in my opinion.
I think they have to be THE most over powered codex in the whole game
I think their pretty good, their given a bad press but over all the codex isnt half bad. it has a few decent combos and lets face it, miss celestine has to be most cost effective HQ at the moment.
I'm looking forward to the new codex when it finally comes out as seeing as this is only really a test codex the new ones bound to be better.
or it could just be that i love sisters of battle. either way I like the new dex.
andrewm9 wrote:The Battle Conclave is also ace. Sisters have long needed a very killy close combat unit. My only real lament about it is the 75 point minimum tax on the unit though I do wish it was actual Sisters unit that coudl do that kind of damage in close combat.
That much is true. Aren't the Celestians supposed to be the Canoness' bodyguard? How do they guard her? Wait, there was the Praesidium Prot-... oh right, it's gone now, as is my ability to field the Celestian Superior as her commander's Shield Bearer, mimicking the legend of Saint Katherine.
Wish Celestians or at least their Superior could buy Storm Shields... Speaking of CC, why the initiative drop of the Seraphim? Granted, they're not a particularly melee-focused unit, but their background always acted as if they were. Up until now this was at least marginally represented in their stats. Gets more irritating when you realize that off-the-mill Preachers still have I4.
Now, I still have to actually play the new rules, but judging from several reviews they are at least playable/winnable (!) - it's just that we lost so much unique stuff so that some of the "look and feel" got lost. I'm all for detaching the Inquisition from the SoB (they should get their own WD Minidex as potential allies for every Imperial army imo), but was it really necessary to remove so much SoB stuff as well? I'm just waiting to see the Blessed Weapon or the Protectiva pop up in some Marine Codex... Oh wait, I almost forgot the Relic Blade.
Lastly, I feel the "purity/anti-psyker" touch in the rules is gone as well. Yeah, 1d6 invul is more allroundish and nice for vehicles, but the psychic defence just felt more fitting.
I don't usually link 1d4chan due to the massive discrepancies between useful and trollish content, but the unit analysis posted there seems pretty neat.
andrewm9 wrote:
Most Sisters units crumble in assault like never before.
Many armies have this problem and work around it.
Also, quantity is a kind of quality.
You are right it is a quality, but Sisters don't have the kind of quantity you need to win battles with regularity. I'm really only fielding about 10 or 12 more models than before. Thats not a signifant increase. I feel that the Battle Conclave is actually necessary to survive most battles, but it is a unit of limited purpose.
When I mean Sisters crumble in assault, I mean they dont' last past the turn of contact. Sweeping advances get them all the time since power armor doesn't protect them from that. Sisters don't really have a good way of fighting back in assault as they get very few and very weak attacks and strike after most units except Tau and Guard units. When Sisters lose combat by 2 or 3 they are probably toast. A Guard unit doesn't worry about it becuase its only a loss of about 60 or so points, but a BS sqaud just lost 125+ points. This can make Objective games quite difficult for Sisters now depending on how fast your opponent can de-mechanize you. How many Battle Sister sqauds do most people take anyway? Maybe 3 or 4 in a 2000 point game.
I don't think that the loss of power is dramatic as people think. I think that the army is more solid than before and by that I mean that Faith is non-essential. Before, your whole game could fall on one die roll (failing your leadership check for SotM on your Canoness at a key point and the like). Because they gutted faith, it is almost unimportant whether you make the rolls or not.
In my experience so far, a pretty 'standard build'* has worked out pretty well. I feel light on troops, but that's cool.
*
I'm running a pretty standard list:
Celestine
Jacobus Bomb in Rhino
1-2 Repentia Squads (5)
3 Dominions in TL-MM Immos, 2 Flamer Squads, 1 Melta
2-4 Battle Sister Squads with 50/50 split between stationary and mobile. All have rhinos which go to Repentia
3 Exorcists
It has credible shooting and anti-tank, good counter charge and pretty decent objective holding.
Sisters have never been a great army ruleswise, so I've been accustomed to this position. I do wish they'd bring back Redemptionists though. I have 40-60 with 10 Eviscerators that have been used as guard since Codex: Chapter Approved got replaced.
I don't think that the loss of power is dramatic as people think. I think that the army is more solid than before and by that I mean that Faith is non-essential. Before, your whole game could fall on one die roll (failing your leadership check for SotM on your Canoness at a key point and the like). Because they gutted faith, it is almost unimportant whether you make the rolls or not.
In my experience so far, a pretty 'standard build'* has worked out pretty well. I feel light on troops, but that's cool.
*
I'm running a pretty standard list:
Celestine
Jacobus Bomb in Rhino
1-2 Repentia Squads (5)
3 Dominions in TL-MM Immos, 2 Flamer Squads, 1 Melta
2-4 Battle Sister Squads with 50/50 split between stationary and mobile. All have rhinos which go to Repentia
3 Exorcists
It has credible shooting and anti-tank, good counter charge and pretty decent objective holding.
Sisters have never been a great army ruleswise, so I've been accustomed to this position. I do wish they'd bring back Redemptionists though. I have 40-60 with 10 Eviscerators that have been used as guard since Codex: Chapter Approved got replaced.
How are your Repentia getting in the Rhinos? Do you wall them up behind them so they can see nothing or do you play with lots of line of sight blocking terrain? Personally I dont' think Repentia are much better as a unit. They still fail to accomplish their goal most of the time which is get to combat and do some damage. Granted I have only used them twice and faield to make them work. I just wish I could take them in mobs of 20 still.
On the note of you foot Sisters. How many are you fielding in a unit? Are they working for you when you want to claim objectives? How many kills are you scoring generally with them since the bulk of your army is wrapped in Battle Sisters.
I've been explorin the possibilities, but I have found that my army old build still works best, its just weaker than before. I am getting about 10 more sisters out of it. I personal;y have foudn no use for St Celestine however. She accomplishes nothign for me other killing 2 or 3 models, dies and usually fails to come back to life for about 2 to 3 turns. The 10 more sisters go into Dominions with meltas.
Like you I play as if Faith means nothing. (I am usually right). The part that gets me is that is the army's identity. Without it they are just Marines light and that sucks. I sincerely hope that we are not stuck with this list for another 7+ years. Sisters do nothing better than any other army and we have no niche to fill. We are power armored bolters with T 3 and thats abotu the size of it.
The Battle Conclave is also ace. Sisters have long needed a very killy close combat unit.
The old Arco-flagellants were kind of bad a$% T5, D6 attacks, and S4 power weapons, and a 4+ invul, a little on the pricy side but they could really dish it out.
I'm just waiting to see the Blessed Weapon or the Protectiva pop up in some Marine Codex... Oh wait, I almost forgot the Relic Blade.
Don’t feel bad the SM stole those from the dark angles. In 3rd they were a war gear option called “sword of secrets” and only DA had them and you could only have one per army, but you could give it to anyone so you could write up a generic character and have a S6 power weapon. Now SM can have them all over the place and dark angels can only have them on one guy who is overpriced. In honesty though, blessed weapons are closer to SW frost blades +1S power weapons, relic blades and the sword of secrets are S6 power weapons.
The Battle Conclave is also ace. Sisters have long needed a very killy close combat unit.
The old Arco-flagellants were kind of bad a$% T5, D6 attacks, and S4 power weapons, and a 4+ invul, a little on the pricy side but they could really dish it out.
I'm just waiting to see the Blessed Weapon or the Protectiva pop up in some Marine Codex... Oh wait, I almost forgot the Relic Blade.
Don’t feel bad the SM stole those from the dark angles. In 3rd they were a war gear option called “sword of secrets” and only DA had them and you could only have one per army, but you could give it to anyone so you could write up a generic character and have a S6 power weapon. Now SM can have them all over the place and dark angels can only have them on one guy who is overpriced. In honesty though, blessed weapons are closer to SW frost blades +1S power weapons, relic blades and the sword of secrets are S6 power weapons.
Mmm, I guess, but relic blades and blessed weapons are literally identical in their in-game effect - +2 strength, two-handed, power weapon.
The general gist I've been getting is that they are an excellent middle ground between IG and SM, with Celestine's low points she is always a viable option too.
4oursword wrote:The general gist I've been getting is that they are an excellent middle ground between IG and SM, with Celestine's low points she is always a viable option too.
Sisters aren't as good as either army though since they lack the volume of firepower of the IG and they lack the durability and flexibility of Space Marines. The middle in this case is not a good place to be.
andrewm9 wrote:How are your Repentia getting in the Rhinos? Do you wall them up behind them so they can see nothing or do you play with lots of line of sight blocking terrain?
Put repentia at rear of rhino with rhino facing toward enemy. When repentia move towards enemy, they are parallel to vehicle's sides and more than likely within 2". They embark.
Personally I dont' think Repentia are much better as a unit. They still fail to accomplish their goal most of the time which is get to combat and do some damage. Granted I have only used them twice and faield to make them work. I just wish I could take them in mobs of 20 still.
Mobs of 20 at the old price? You're crazy. They are good for making a unit they don't really want to shoot out of their vehicle and then assaulting something and doing some damage.
On the note of you foot Sisters. How many are you fielding in a unit? Are they working for you when you want to claim objectives? How many kills are you scoring generally with them since the bulk of your army is wrapped in Battle Sisters.
10, yes. Only 2 - 4 squads are my sisters, so less than half of my army. And they do all right for themselves. Objective sitter is Melta/Multimelta and keeps folks away. Mobile is HF/Melta and does great. Stay in your Rhino!
I've been explorin the possibilities, but I have found that my army old build still works best, its just weaker than before. I am getting about 10 more sisters out of it.
You cannot play the army the same that you did before. It is a whole different army.
I personal;y have foudn no use for St Celestine however. She accomplishes nothign for me other killing 2 or 3 models, dies and usually fails to come back to life for about 2 to 3 turns.
Celestine is a distraction, a tarpit and kill point denier. For 115 points, you can't beat it. She will tie up a squad or two or take shooting and potentially die horribly, but will be back a couple times to do the same thing during the game. She messes with your opponent's head.
Like you I play as if Faith means nothing. (I am usually right). The part that gets me is that is the army's identity. Without it they are just Marines light and that sucks. I sincerely hope that we are not stuck with this list for another 7+ years. Sisters do nothing better than any other army and we have no niche to fill. We are power armored bolters with T 3 and thats abotu the size of it.
Right now Sisters do two things better than anyone. Melta and High Initiative PW saturation.
People need to stop talking about what we lost. Stand up, brush yourself off and look at what you have. Work with that.
andrewm9 wrote:How are your Repentia getting in the Rhinos? Do you wall them up behind them so they can see nothing or do you play with lots of line of sight blocking terrain?
Put repentia at rear of rhino with rhino facing toward enemy. When repentia move towards enemy, they are parallel to vehicle's sides and more than likely within 2". They embark.
Personally I dont' think Repentia are much better as a unit. They still fail to accomplish their goal most of the time which is get to combat and do some damage. Granted I have only used them twice and faield to make them work. I just wish I could take them in mobs of 20 still.
Mobs of 20 at the old price? You're crazy. They are good for making a unit they don't really want to shoot out of their vehicle and then assaulting something and doing some damage.
On the note of you foot Sisters. How many are you fielding in a unit? Are they working for you when you want to claim objectives? How many kills are you scoring generally with them since the bulk of your army is wrapped in Battle Sisters.
10, yes. Only 2 - 4 squads are my sisters, so less than half of my army. And they do all right for themselves. Objective sitter is Melta/Multimelta and keeps folks away. Mobile is HF/Melta and does great. Stay in your Rhino!
I've been explorin the possibilities, but I have found that my army old build still works best, its just weaker than before. I am getting about 10 more sisters out of it.
You cannot play the army the same that you did before. It is a whole different army.
I personal;y have foudn no use for St Celestine however. She accomplishes nothign for me other killing 2 or 3 models, dies and usually fails to come back to life for about 2 to 3 turns.
Celestine is a distraction, a tarpit and kill point denier. For 115 points, you can't beat it. She will tie up a squad or two or take shooting and potentially die horribly, but will be back a couple times to do the same thing during the game. She messes with your opponent's head.
Like you I play as if Faith means nothing. (I am usually right). The part that gets me is that is the army's identity. Without it they are just Marines light and that sucks. I sincerely hope that we are not stuck with this list for another 7+ years. Sisters do nothing better than any other army and we have no niche to fill. We are power armored bolters with T 3 and thats abotu the size of it.
Right now Sisters do two things better than anyone. Melta and High Initiative PW saturation.
People need to stop talking about what we lost. Stand up, brush yourself off and look at what you have. Work with that.
Isn't that strange. I was JUST thinking that we needed more optimism in this thread! : D
Sisters got hosed by these new rules. While there are a few good things they got, the added strength pales in compassion to the tactical and list building flexibility they lost
The sisters codex had egregiously broken things in it, because it was written in the context of a completely different core rules set! It was a bear to play as or against. It finally got the standardization and NERF it needed for 5th edition.
Faith points were a convoluted mess.
Book of St Lucius was never intended for 5th edition Close Combat Morale checks! It was incredible, and way OP.
Seraphim with legacy hit and run rules were broken, and inconsistent and strange.
Goodbye 3+ invulnerable saves!
Every unit with a 5+ psychic nullification...?
Rallying below half AND when ineligible?
Now it works in the context of the rules, and thats great and has been reduced to an average army, as it should always have been.
2 closing points:
(1) Should have been published as an ACTUAL codex
(2) Needs plastic models
Augustus wrote:The sisters codex had egregiously broken things in it, because it was written in the context of a completely different core rules set! It was a bear to play as or against. It finally got the standardization and NERF it needed for 5th edition.
Faith points were a convoluted mess.
Nope.
Defensive = equal to or over current squad size.
Offensive = equal to or under current squad size.
Leadership test if an IC and the unit needs to count as faithful (have a superior in it still or be Celestians basically)
Actually more simple than the current, it was just the rarity of the army being in play that led to a lot of confusion mostly.
Book of St Lucius was never intended for 5th edition Close Combat Morale checks! It was incredible, and way OP.
Kind of sort of, kind of like an ATSKNF that you had to pay for on each squad. Added in the disadvantage that when the superior died not only could they no longer use acts of faith, but they would also need to either stand close to another squad with a book or try to survive like guardsmen in power armour in any assault.
I could say right here that ATSKNF is extremely OP and each squad must pay an additional 5 points to allow the sergeant to give their squad ATSKNF, they lose it if they lose him.
Seraphim with legacy hit and run rules were broken, and inconsistent and strange.
Yeh, was pretty annoying actually.
Goodbye 3+ invulnerable saves!
I liked it, would be a lie if I said I didn't. Though I'd rather the power stay and give a 4+ invul rather than everything gets a 6+ all the time.
Every unit with a 5+ psychic nullification...?
Yep actually kind of matched the story there, would have been nice if it stayed. Though it meant the power had to actually target them, and some powers that fancy rune priest had didn't count as psychic powers apparently. Meaning crap like JotWW didn't get the save since it didn't target them directly.
Rallying below half AND when ineligible?
Again like ATSKNF, though you had to pay a faith point for it and couldn't unless the unit still counted as faithful. Even then marines get to do it for free, yet a more fluffy representation of the rule (as in they are praying for the bravery to overcome it) seems OP?
Now it works in the context of the rules, and thats great and has been reduced to an average army, as it should always have been.
Was already average anyway, nothing much has changed will still likely see little to no tournament level play. Though that's not the reason I got them in the first place anyway.
2 closing points:
(1) Should have been published as an ACTUAL codex
(2) Needs plastic models
1. No, I'd actually rather a patch job as a test then get something new in maybe a year or so than botched, rushed rules that last for the next ten years. As this seemed rather rushed I'm glad it wasn't an actual release.
2. Yep, definitely. Though conversions are possible the current range sort of limits what can be done on the standard rank and file troops.
Augustus wrote:The sisters codex had egregiously broken things in it, because it was written in the context of a completely different core rules set! It was a bear to play as or against. It finally got the standardization and NERF it needed for 5th edition.
You are joking right? If it was so broken why were Sisters not winning tournaments more often. Having a 3++ save isn't too uncommmon now. Crusaders, stormshield terminators are the most common people. Crusaders are rather cheap too. The Book of St Lucius was useful but not broken. It might have been a little cheap, but its necessary if you are goign to deposit your troops within 12" of the enemy otherwise they all die like Necrons in close combat. Most sisters units can't handle assault at all as they really can't hurt marines needing 4's to hit and 5's to wound and then there is the 3+ save. the 5+ Nullification was nice but hardly broken. Space Wolves have that and more with wolftail talismans and rune weapons
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Johan Chill wrote:Don't forget 4 rending heavy flamers is now an option.
Its a nice one but it comes at the cost of an Exorcist. Sisters need to be popping cans on the first turn with this list
pretre wrote:Put repentia at rear of rhino with rhino facing toward enemy. When repentia move towards enemy, they are parallel to vehicle's sides and more than likely within 2". They embark.
You and I are playing different kinds of generals if that works for you. Any enemy unit the Repentia can see qualifies for Rage. They literally cannot see any enemy unit in order for them to board a transport. Movin in a vehcile does not qualify
pretre wrote:
Right now Sisters do two things better than anyone. Melta and High Initiative PW saturation.
People need to stop talking about what we lost. Stand up, brush yourself off and look at what you have. Work with that.
I don't see them as more melta really. Blood Angels can put 3 melta weapons in every squad easily. I am playing the army as it is, I'm just not enjoying it. It does work, but there are still a lot of flaws that this new codex did not fix. My complaints aren't so much about what we lost, but what we did not gain that I feel we need to be more competetive in the 5th edition environment. Any codex can work, but I don't think for a second that its better than before. As for the Battle Conclave ( I assume that is what you are referring to), we can onmly take 2 and Grey Knights can do that also and better since they can strike at Str 5 (with the proper special character) or at initiative 10 and field more of them than Sisters can with Sisters being limited to 2. So I stand by what I said. Sisters have no army specialty that another army doesn't do better.
I don't want to soudn all negative towards you. Thanks for the advice I will give it a try. I just wanted to respond to those 2 points.
pretre wrote:Put repentia at rear of rhino with rhino facing toward enemy. When repentia move towards enemy, they are parallel to vehicle's sides and more than likely within 2". They embark.
You and I are playing different kinds of generals if that works for you. Any enemy unit the Repentia can see qualifies for Rage. They literally cannot see any enemy unit in order for them to board a transport. Movin in a vehcile does not qualify
You're over thinking Rage.
P76, BRB: "In the movement phase, units subject to rage must always move as fast as possible towards the nearest closest visible enemy."
P66, BRB: "A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the movement phase."
So... You put your repentia behind your rhino with the rhino between them and the enemy. During movement, they move toward the enemy at their fastest rate (6") and end within 2" of the access points. You embark them.
I don't see them as more melta really. Blood Angels can put 3 melta weapons in every squad easily.
Every Force Org slot in the SOB list can take 3 Melta. HQ, Fast and Heavy can take 5+. Plus every slot can take a TL-MM Immolator. You can't do that in Blood Angels.
I am playing the army as it is, I'm just not enjoying it. It does work, but there are still a lot of flaws that this new codex did not fix. My complaints aren't so much about what we lost, but what we did not gain that I feel we need to be more competetive in the 5th edition environment. Any codex can work, but I don't think for a second that its better than before.
/shrug. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I think that time will show that it is competitively fine in the 5th edition environment. Could it be better? Sure.
As for the Battle Conclave ( I assume that is what you are referring to), we can onmly take 2 and Grey Knights can do that also and better since they can strike at Str 5 (with the proper special character) or at initiative 10 and field more of them than Sisters can with Sisters being limited to 2. So I stand by what I said. Sisters have no army specialty that another army doesn't do better.
Do do what a Battle Conclave does, GK have to take a squad of all Halberds.
Battle Conclave with Uriah, 9 Henchmen, Rhino - 260, 45 S4 I6 Attacks on the Charge. Rerolls.
Strike Squad (10) with Halberds, Rhino - 285 21 S4 (S5) I6 Attacks on the Charge. No Rerolls. No FNP.
Purifiers (10) with Halberds, Rhino - 295 30 S4 (S5) I6 Attacks on the Charge. No Rerolls. No FNP. Add Cleansing Flame.
Henchmen Warband (10) with DCA, Rhino - 185 - 40 S4 I6 Attacks on the Charge. No Rerolls. No FNP.
Paladins (10) with Halberds, No Rhino - 550 - 40 S4 (S5) I6 Attacks on the Charge. No Rerolls. FNP is +75. Add Holocaust.
I10 or rerolls are going to cost you extra (Lib). And of course, the GK have better armor, other stats.
Uriah Bomb is dirt cheap for what you get. Like I said, power weapon saturation is better in SoB than GK. Yeah, we can only get two, but how many of those do you need?
I don't want to soudn all negative towards you. Thanks for the advice I will give it a try. I just wanted to respond to those 2 points.
Like I said, power weapon saturation is better in SoB than GK. Yeah, we can only get two, but how many of those do you need?
I have to disagree with that. Having two units of power weapons, no matter how cheap, cannot compare to an entire army of psyker, steroid pumped, power weapon hefting jar heads.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I have to disagree with that. Having two units of power weapons, no matter how cheap, cannot compare to an entire army of psyker, steroid pumped, power weapon hefting jar heads.
/shrug. Your opinion. I would argue that there's a great deal else that exists in the Sisters army that you don't need more than 2. I only run 1.
Augustus wrote:The sisters codex had egregiously broken things in it, because it was written in the context of a completely different core rules set! It was a bear to play as or against. It finally got the standardization and NERF it needed for 5th edition.
Faith points were a convoluted mess.
Nope.
Defensive = equal to or over current squad size.
Offensive = equal to or under current squad size.
Leadership test if an IC and the unit needs to count as faithful (have a superior in it still or be Celestians basically)
Actually more simple than the current, it was just the rarity of the army being in play that led to a lot of confusion mostly.
That's actually called a convoluted mess. I label you a fan defending the old list because you liked it. Believe me I can understand, list obsolescence is terrible, but lets call a spade a spade shall we? Beyond these convoluted rules, the roles were at different times, for different powers, there's was growing and shrinking total of points for starting units and dying units, you had to use counters or the like to keep track of faith points and effects, powers lasted for different times...
It was a huge mess.
The reason I don't like that is the same reason I think the IG orders rules and pain tokens are bad rules, they are codex unique, record keeping, counter laden, time sensitive, situational nightmares to keep track of. Instead just give them stat lines and direct effects please... Its the worst of 40k rules writing, prone to abuse and hard to keep track of, it's not suppose to be a crib sheet and counter game. I was really glad to see all that garbage go away.
andrewm9 wrote:
Augustus wrote:The sisters codex had egregiously broken things in it, because it was written in the context of a completely different core rules set! It was a bear to play as or against. It finally got the standardization and NERF it needed for 5th edition.
You are joking right?
No I'm not joking, the sister codex was broken all over the place because overnight (from 4th to 5th) they had powers that were fairly minor and fluffy become egregiously more effective. The codex was filled with this kind of thing, much better effects with NO BALANCE WHATSOEVER! some examples:
AP1 missiles were not much different from AP2 in 4th, but completely different in 5th with the extra +1 D rolls.
Book of St Lucious making everything stubborn was a minor power when loosing melee was -1, but in 5th where you are - # you lost combat by, it was significantly better
Rallying below half, with enemy in 6, with faith points is an incredible power in 5th, because you can save the troop choices even when they have been driven off of objectives, sisters never get 'herded' off board
Legacy mechanics for hit and run made Seraphim far better than other (hit and run and or jump units) units, especially with the twin linked meltapistol rules, and rally and inv saves, you couldnt stop them from shooting without killing the entire unit!
If it was so broken why were Sisters not winning tournaments more often.
Because other codices released also went bananas off the scale, even more, probably starting with Imperial Guard leaf blower and then Space Wolves, followed by Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, the power factor just got bananas. Also because sisters armys are expensive and all metal, and people don't like (can't afford/ dont want to build) them. Furthermore, how do you know who is 'winning all the tourneys'?
Having a 3++ save isn't too uncommmon now.
Its still very rare, and no army can spontaneously do it on ANY UNIT! like sisters could, that was absurd, instant storm shields?
The Book of St Lucius was useful but not broken. It might have been a little cheap,
It was completely broken, it was in every list all the time and it made the entire sisters army stubborn, ridiculous, redefining the melee phase for a codex unique USR through a legacy special rule taken out of context.
5+ Nullification was nice but hardly broken. Space Wolves have that and more with wolftail talismans and rune weapons
Yes, Space Wolves are OP, they were the poster child for it till they came out with Grey Knights and Dark ELdar, so I agree there, but that doesn't make an army wide psychic save, unique to a single codex, any less awesome. Plus wolf tail talismans have to get bought as single upgrades on an IC, its hardly the equivalent of an army wide 5+ 'nope' for FREE!
/shrug. Your opinion. I would argue that there's a great deal else that exists in the Sisters army that you don't need more than 2. I only run 1.
I am not saying that SoB need more than 2, I am saying that you can not claim that they can have more PW saturation then GK. The math does not add up, 2 force org slots compared to all of them.
Augustus wrote:The sisters codex had egregiously broken things in it, because it was written in the context of a completely different core rules set! It was a bear to play as or against. It finally got the standardization and NERF it needed for 5th edition.
Faith points were a convoluted mess.
Nope.
Defensive = equal to or over current squad size.
Offensive = equal to or under current squad size.
Leadership test if an IC and the unit needs to count as faithful (have a superior in it still or be Celestians basically)
Actually more simple than the current, it was just the rarity of the army being in play that led to a lot of confusion mostly.
That's actually called a convoluted mess. I label you a fan defending the old list because you liked it. Believe me I can understand, list obsolescence is terrible, but lets call a spade a spade shall we? Beyond these convoluted rules, the roles were at different times, for different powers, there's was growing and shrinking total of points for starting units and dying units, you had to use counters or the like to keep track of faith points and effects, powers lasted for different times...
It was a huge mess.
I suppose it was then though I never had trouble following it. The new system seems slightly more convoluted, though in a different manner by introducing a variety of modifiers to replace the equal to or over/under and by removing an army wide pool of powers to assign different units their own powers. They still have the use conditions and you still need to keep track of the faith points, which empty out and get replenished each turn. It's not better I guess, just different and even more confusing to the opponent than ever.
n0t_u wrote:I suppose it was then though I never had trouble following it. The new system seems slightly more convoluted, though in a different manner by introducing a variety of modifiers to replace the equal to or over/under and by removing an army wide pool of powers to assign different units their own powers. They still have the use conditions and you still need to keep track of the faith points, which empty out and get replenished each turn. It's not better I guess, just different...
I agree with you there. I think the worst part of it is it doesn't scale up or down with the army, its just points/turn, less useful in a 2500 point game than in a combat patrol, and that's just bad design.
I still can't believe it's not an actual hard copy codex, what happens next year for people who want to play/start the army?
As the OP asked, here are my thoughts on the new codex. I have had time to play with the new rules and I believe I have a handle on how they wiill work with me.
Like most anyone can see, there was a lot of redaction going on. Several units are no longer there and the original previous Witch Hunter codex was not exactly overflowing with options to begin with. In fact it was less than the original Chapter Approved rules the Sisters started with. On the up side, I liked my army to be as Faithful as possible and tried to keep it to Sisters only so most of what is gone are parts I seldom used.
First among the new units I take are my Repentia. I know everyone raves about the Battle Conclave and yes, they are deadly as sin, but I lthink the Sisters Repentia are still an under-rated unit choice. In more years than I care to admit, I have taken Repentia only a handful of times because each and every time they failed to cause a single casulty. Most times they were wiped out before even getting to swing. I can say with complete honesty I have taken them more since the white drawf codex than I ever had in the past. They have had a few good games, but in general they are kind of hit and miss. This should be telling about the quality of any codex the Adepta Sororatias have had ... being mediocre is a vast improvement from the old codex; at least it is for the Repentia.
If I were going to make a point about the Sisters of Battle it would be this: they are not Witch Hunters any more. This is a different army. Now once we can cope with that fact, maybe I can also point out that they are not Space Marines, either.
What I have come to like about the new codex is that being fluffy is not going to automatically cost you a game. There is nothing in the "utterly worthless" column like there was before. It is a mediocre set of limited rules pubished with copious typos and editorial errors in a rather off-handed way. But it is MY army. I can work with it. I can win with it. And most importantly, I can have fun with My Sisters. FOTM fanbois should look elsewhere.
n0t_u wrote:I suppose it was then though I never had trouble following it. The new system seems slightly more convoluted, though in a different manner by introducing a variety of modifiers to replace the equal to or over/under and by removing an army wide pool of powers to assign different units their own powers. They still have the use conditions and you still need to keep track of the faith points, which empty out and get replenished each turn. It's not better I guess, just different...
I agree with you there. I think the worst part of it is it doesn't scale up or down with the army, its just points/turn, less useful in a 2500 point game than in a combat patrol, and that's just bad design.
I still can't believe it's not an actual hard copy codex, what happens next year for people who want to play/start the army?
They will do the same thing they did with BA and Catachans, once the back issues of WD run out they will put in on the web as a PDF
Augustus wrote:Rallying below half, with enemy in 6, with faith points is an incredible power in 5th, because you can save the troop choices even when they have been driven off of objectives, sisters never get 'herded' off board
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.
Because that is an option when playing at events... Good call, BBA. Thanks for the sage advice.
For the rest of us who play in the really real world, we need to work with what we have.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarah Phim wrote:If I were going to make a point about the Sisters of Battle it would be this: they are not Witch Hunters any more. This is a different army. Now once we can cope with that fact, maybe I can also point out that they are not Space Marines, either.
What I have come to like about the new codex is that being fluffy is not going to automatically cost you a game. There is nothing in the "utterly worthless" column like there was before. It is a mediocre set of limited rules pubished with copious typos and editorial errors in a rather off-handed way. But it is MY army. I can work with it. I can win with it. And most importantly, I can have fun with My Sisters. FOTM fanbois should look elsewhere.
Well said, Sarah, well said. Welcome to Dakka Dakka!
OK, a PDF, well I guess. Sure makes them out to be second class citizens doesn't it? I don't think that's fair, but I have done many armies that were invaldiated so I know...
Also why give away foir free what you can sell? So strange.
Augustus wrote:That does seem the case, a new army.
OK, a PDF, well I guess. Sure makes them out to be second class citizens doesn't it? I don't think that's fair, but I have done many armies that were invaldiated so I know...
Also why give away foir free what you can sell? So strange.
Daemonhunters had only a PDF for a while, but then they... Oh... Right.
Maybe a PDF is a good thing, when you look at things like that.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.
Because that is an option when playing at events... Good call, BBA. Thanks for the sage advice.
For the rest of us who play in the really real world, we need to work with what we have.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarah Phim wrote:If I were going to make a point about the Sisters of Battle it would be this: they are not Witch Hunters any more. This is a different army. Now once we can cope with that fact, maybe I can also point out that they are not Space Marines, either.
What I have come to like about the new codex is that being fluffy is not going to automatically cost you a game. There is nothing in the "utterly worthless" column like there was before. It is a mediocre set of limited rules pubished with copious typos and editorial errors in a rather off-handed way. But it is MY army. I can work with it. I can win with it. And most importantly, I can have fun with My Sisters. FOTM fanbois should look elsewhere.
Well said, Sarah, well said. Welcome to Dakka Dakka!
Well, no one said they were going to play only in tournaments. For casual play, I sure as hell would use the old rules.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
Well, no one said they were going to play only in tournaments. For casual play, I sure as hell would use the old rules.
This brings up a point. I have wanted to play a few games with WH vs SoB since I saw the first half of the new codex. Sadly, there are not any other Sisters players around here. I am curious as to how each would play against the other.
[ETA]
Everyone at my LGS told me I could use the C:WH if I wanted and wait for a real codex. I was tempted, too. My first reaction to the WD codex was more stunned disbelief than anything. Then i held out for thinking the wargear would make up for the changes. But there is no wargear. I was hurt. I thought they had intentionally tanked my army because I could not see any other reason for the changes. But I played the new rules anyway. I have not gone back to the old rules once. And I am starting to like how the new girls play. But you are right, if it is a casual game at home or at the LGS, I would not have any problem what so ever with letting some use the old codex. As you can see by the above, I would actually enjoy it if they did.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I quite like the new rules. I am actually starting Sisters after I finish my Tau and daemons.
I find that people who never played sisters, often feel that way. This is because they never had the 5 point stubborn, the 3++ saves, acts of faith during enemy turns, and I'm just repeating posts I've made all over the shop ;3
Whilst the old codex doesn't work well with 5th edition if you want to do something other than 11+ immolators, even with my old 4th edition set up I get far more wins/draws than with current edition WD codex as it basically scuppers us. No reason to play sister with WD dex if you can play ye olde codex.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I quite like the new rules. I am actually starting Sisters after I finish my Tau and daemons.
I find that people who never played sisters, often feel that way. This is because they never had the 5 point stubborn, the 3++ saves, acts of faith during enemy turns, and I'm just repeating posts I've made all over the shop ;3
I find that people who never played sisters during Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd), Core Rulebook Sisters and Codex: Chapter Approved sisters, often feel that way. This is because they never had Feel No Pain faith acts, Redemptionists with 1 Eviscerator for every 5 models and Init 10 attacks. Or consequently because they don't remember when we had no faith (Core Rulebook) or just one table that you rolled at the start of the game. Sisters have always been a niche army with lackluster power, even during C:WH. That is part of the fun.
Whilst the old codex doesn't work well with 5th edition if you want to do something other than 11+ immolators, even with my old 4th edition set up I get far more wins/draws than with current edition WD codex as it basically scuppers us. No reason to play sister with WD dex if you can play ye olde codex.
I really would like to see some data on this rather than armchair analysis. My gut is that the WD codex will be just as competitive as C:WH, which is to say not terribly.
pretre wrote:Or consequently because they don't remember when we had no faith (Core Rulebook) or just one table that you rolled at the start of the game.
Rites of Faith were a fun idea, very fluffy. Would've liked to see them in addition to "normal" AoF, though both should feel like unique mechanics in their own right of course.
But here's a blast from the past for ya - does anyone remember when Battle Sisters were T4?
pretre wrote:Or consequently because they don't remember when we had no faith (Core Rulebook) or just one table that you rolled at the start of the game.
Rites of Faith were a fun idea, very fluffy. Would've liked to see them in addition to "normal" AoF, though both should feel like unique mechanics in their own right of course.
But here's a blast from the past for ya - does anyone remember when Battle Sisters were T4?
I do and Sodies were only a nickel!
The old Sacred Rites were cool because they were pre-deploy, iirc, so influenced battle strategy and lasted the game. They were uncool because they were super random and mostly meh. Shooting twice and hatred could be pretty sweet.
D6 + Modifiers
1 - Nothing
2 - Fearless
3 - Frenzied
4 - +1 LD 5 - Hatred
6 - 4+ Psychic Save
7 - Autopass all psych and break tests
8 - Ignore target priority
9 - Fire twice in one shooting phase
Lynata wrote: - does anyone remember when Battle Sisters were T4?
Yes!
That was because anyone with power armor was T4. Just like anyone with a chainsword was S+1.
While tripping through memory lane, do you remember that flame weapon you could use in close combat before the combat actually started? I keep thinking Emmolation Grenades but that's not it.
Sarah Phim wrote:
While tripping through memory lane, do you remember that flame weapon you could use in close combat before the combat actually started? I keep thinking Emmolation Grenades but that's not it.
Are you thinking of Exterminators? Redemptionists could add them for like +3 pts each. They hit at I10 and you rolled one hit for every model of the enemy squad. The number of models in your squad determined what it took to hit them. If you had a full squad of Reds, you hit on a 2+, I think. It was nasty with divine guidance. Went something like:
20 Redemptionists, 5 Zealots with Eviscerators. All with Exterminators.
X attacks at Init 10 where X = the size of the enemy squad.
45 Normal Attacks on the Charge
15 Chainfist attacks on the Charge.
Oh and you could Divine Guide that whole mess too, so 6's ignored armor. Ahh, Codex Chapter Approved, how I miss thee.
I'm thinking Brazier of Divine Fire or something, though I'd have to dig up the book again.
Exterminators always sounded fun, too, though I sadly never managed to build up a force of Frateris Militia like I had plannet at some time. The idea of a huge wall of cheap fanatic meatshields to go before the advancing Sisters just sounded so grimdark and epic at the same time.
I think I tried them once in an online game via vassal, two groups of twenty fanatics each, though they got shot to fine red mist by Tau plasma within the first two rounds.
Lynata wrote:I'm thinking Brazier of Divine Fire or something, though I'd have to dig up the book again.
Exterminators always sounded fun, too, though I sadly never managed to build up a force of Frateris Militia like I had plannet at some time. The idea of a huge wall of cheap fanatic meatshields to go before the advancing Sisters just sounded so grimdark and epic at the same time.
I think I tried them once in an online game via vassal, two groups of twenty fanatics each, though they got shot to fine red mist by Tau plasma within the first two rounds.
Codex Chapter Approved had a FNP act, so most of the time the Redemptionists made it to the front lines.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Poorly thought out crap. If I were you, I would use the old codex for them. They are absolutely terrible right now.
Because that is an option when playing at events... Good call, BBA. Thanks for the sage advice.
For the rest of us who play in the really real world, we need to work with what we have.
This gets bandied about quite a bit, and I'm sure you felt real tough when you wrote it, but realistically a very large portion of players (I hesitate to say majority, although I'd be willing to bet that's the case) rarely participate in any events, much less have them take up the bulk of their gaming time.
Omegus wrote:This gets bandied about quite a bit, and I'm sure you felt real tough when you wrote it, but realistically a very large portion of players (I hesitate to say majority, although I'd be willing to bet that's the case) rarely participate in any events, much less have them take up the bulk of their gaming time.
Oh, I definitely felt like an internet tough guy.
For those of us who talk to others and leave our mom's basement though, we do have to come to a common consensus on rules. This means using current codexes, 5th edition rules, etc.
Of course you can do whatever you want in your home.
I still don't understand all the whining about the allies rules. The Imperium has different departments for a reason, and if a bunch of Imperial Guard hit a daemon incursion, they would have called in the help of the Grey Knights.
Allies were a conflicting set of rules across codecies.
If I have a codex that says I can have say ... Dark Angels as allies. Well, that's cool and all. But then the Dark Angels get some upgrades through a FAQ. Do the Dark Angles in my codex also get those upgrades or do I have to conform to the rules I have in my codex?
OK, so let's make this a little more flexable. My codex now says I can pick one troop choice from the Dark Angles and leavs all other info out of my codex. Now I need to buy another codex to play my army. Awe shucks. I have an easy US$1000 invested, whats another 30? But then in a few months the Dark Angels get a brand new, reworked codex. They can have terminators as troops regardless if Bilial is present (this is hypothetical, ya know -- it has not really happened ... yet). So now my codex has access terminators and the list was never designed to have that ability.
Anyway ... too many conflicting rules for the same unit across books and the possibility for changes in one codex to break another means it is better (easier) to do away with allies.
pretre wrote:
I really would like to see some data on this rather than armchair analysis. My gut is that the WD codex will be just as competitive as C:WH, which is to say not terribly.
I find this to commonly be the opinion of people who haven't played during Rogue Trader's first release, when Sisters policed the Space Marines and hunted down any that went rogue, with their silly nun habit headdress thingies. Back when I could level my skirmish team and have extendo-arms space marines with googly eyes!
Anywho, what more analysis can I provide then how my games go? I find it strange that within a few weeks of the WD codex I had played half a monkey and there are people who still haven't given it a run. Your gut doesn't change that a win to loss ratio with WD codex has been flatly lower than with WH; being affected by morale, not having get out of jail free faith and tarpitting deathstars is a considerable current tooth pull. I mean I would -never- have considered MM's outside of apoc with relentless until testing the current codex.
I found 2nd edition sisters more amusing than necron disable scarabs and 6 rapeflayers personally~ I have to admit it's a shame through my collection run that my banner bearer lost her fleur de lys. But then in those days I was arguing with people putting blu-tack on their orks so they didn't fall off the wagon and take wounds.
pretre wrote:
I really would like to see some data on this rather than armchair analysis. My gut is that the WD codex will be just as competitive as C:WH, which is to say not terribly.
I find this to commonly be the opinion of people who haven't played during Rogue Trader's first release, when Sisters policed the Space Marines and hunted down any that went rogue, with their silly nun habit headdress thingies. Back when I could level my skirmish team and have extendo-arms space marines with googly eyes!
Anywho, what more analysis can I provide then how my games go? I find it strange that within a few weeks of the WD codex I had played half a monkey and there are people who still haven't given it a run. Your gut doesn't change that a win to loss ratio with WD codex has been flatly lower than with WH; being affected by morale, not having get out of jail free faith and tarpitting deathstars is a considerable current tooth pull. I mean I would -never- have considered MM's outside of apoc with relentless until testing the current codex.
I found 2nd edition sisters more amusing than necron disable scarabs and 6 rapeflayers personally~ I have to admit it's a shame through my collection run that my banner bearer lost her fleur de lys. But then in those days I was arguing with people putting blu-tack on their orks so they didn't fall off the wagon and take wounds.
Actually, in the game I finished just after the WD dex came out, I managed to butcher my opponent - playing Vanilla Marines - to the point of tabling her by turn 4 or so. This is in contrast to a more balanced gamestyle with the WH dex, which I'd generally get slaughtered in but end up winning because I'd keep my head on the objectives.
I started another few games with her using my Sisters that I never ended up finishing, because I got in the mood for more Daemons and Eldar stuff. It takes us a full weekend at the shortest to play a 1500 points standard game, and more often it'll be played over a full week. We're both fairly slow gamers and I can't stand standing for too long, so we play 1 turn at a time, which takes about an hour unless they're going really quick. This weekend, though, I'll probably play another game, and we'll see how it goes now that she knows what the Battle Conclave can do. Her Marines used to butcher most of my units in melee combat, so she was expecting the Battle Conclave to be a pushover for her Honor Guard (None of the Honor Guard got to make any melee attacks).
Pouncey wrote:
now that she knows what the Battle Conclave can do.
That's fairly huge thing to not know about until too late in the current layout. Ouch. How are you building yours right now? I still advocate 3 crusaders 6 death cult and control charge to keep uriah out of the first round for rhino friendlies; but that's largely because of the BA/GK opponents, and wolf pop and clear, that I tend to run against.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I still don't understand all the whining about the allies rules. The Imperium has different departments for a reason, and if a bunch of Imperial Guard hit a daemon incursion, they would have called in the help of the Grey Knights.
What was the big deal about allies?
I completely agree the ally rules were awesome and really easy to use. You can take inducted IG or inducted vanilla SM from the list of units in the WH/DH codex. Other imperial armies could take one HQ, Elite, Fast, and two troops from the WH book. I don’t see why people got so bent out of shape over some very simple rules. They gave a lot of variety to imperial armies. It is very nice for IG and SM armies that can tend to be dull after a while.
Spiku wrote:during Rogue Trader's first release, when Sisters policed the Space Marines and hunted down any that went rogue
Contrary to popular (Marine players') belief, this never changed. Andy Hoare talks about this bit some in WD #292.
It even got sort-of referenced in the army fluff during GW's global Armageddon campaign - apparently the Order of the Argent Shroud has quite a reputation when it comes to "their mandate of regulating the activities" of Imperial forces. Here's one of the snippets from the campaign website. Thank the Emperor for the Waybackmachine!
Omegus wrote:This gets bandied about quite a bit, and I'm sure you felt real tough when you wrote it, but realistically a very large portion of players (I hesitate to say majority, although I'd be willing to bet that's the case) rarely participate in any events, much less have them take up the bulk of their gaming time.
Oh, I definitely felt like an internet tough guy.
For those of us who talk to others and leave our mom's basement though, we do have to come to a common consensus on rules. This means using current codexes, 5th edition rules, etc.
Of course you can do whatever you want in your home.
Well done, not only did you manage to insult me and every casual gamer in the same phrase, you also made a fool of yourself by saying you are an internet tough guy (FYI the term is negative).
If you think that the majority of players are nerds living at their mom's basement, then you are not that much of a social genius either. A great many players play at their friends' house/LGS. So, by your logic, that makes them also nerds living at their mom's basement. Many of these nerds know each other well, and usually allow each other to use old codices, rules or models if they desire. This hobby is about having fun with friends, not winning tournaments you know.
Pouncey wrote:
now that she knows what the Battle Conclave can do.
That's fairly huge thing to not know about until too late in the current layout. Ouch. How are you building yours right now? I still advocate 3 crusaders 6 death cult and control charge to keep uriah out of the first round for rhino friendlies; but that's largely because of the BA/GK opponents, and wolf pop and clear, that I tend to run against.
I use Jacobus, 3 Crusaders, and 6 Death-Cult Assassins, though I don't always include them in my army, as they don't quite fit with my custom Order's fluff - although, thinking about it for a few seconds, I thought of a way to make it fit better with the custom fluff.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
pretre wrote:
Omegus wrote:This gets bandied about quite a bit, and I'm sure you felt real tough when you wrote it, but realistically a very large portion of players (I hesitate to say majority, although I'd be willing to bet that's the case) rarely participate in any events, much less have them take up the bulk of their gaming time.
Oh, I definitely felt like an internet tough guy.
For those of us who talk to others and leave our mom's basement though, we do have to come to a common consensus on rules. This means using current codexes, 5th edition rules, etc.
Of course you can do whatever you want in your home.
Well done, not only did you manage to insult me and every casual gamer in the same phrase, you also made a fool of yourself by saying you are an internet tough guy (FYI the term is negative).
If you think that the majority of players are nerds living at their mom's basement, then you are not that much of a social genius either. A great many players play at their friends' house/LGS. So, by your logic, that makes them also nerds living at their mom's basement. Many of these nerds know each other well, and usually allow each other to use old codices, rules or models if they desire. This hobby is about having fun with friends, not winning tournaments you know.
Err, maybe I shouldn't bring this up, but I'm a nerd who lives with my parents even at the age of 23. I don't live in their basement, as I have a proper bedroom. In my defence, living on my own isn't really a viable option for me at this point in my life.
By the way - I keep hearing about how awesome Uriah and Celestine are, which is all fine and dandy, but I always preferred using "custom" characters, making up my own fluff for them. Did anyone play without any special characters, just using a Canoness and Reti- err, Command Squad for HQ? How did they fare?
Lynata wrote:By the way - I keep hearing about how awesome Uriah and Celestine are, which is all fine and dandy, but I always preferred using "custom" characters, making up my own fluff for them. Did anyone play without any special characters, just using a Canoness and Reti- err, Command Squad for HQ? How did they fare?
My current list which I'll be using this weekend - hopefully - includes a Canoness and squad of Celestians acting as a bodyguard, rather than a proper Command Squad. I might go re-write it before any gaming starts, cause I do love the Hospitaler model.
I just wish I could locate the rules (or a spare WD at any of my local stores) to give them a shot.
Our local SoB player seems to be ok with them, he is using them for an Iron Builder we're running and he is enjoying them. (now if only he was around when I wasn't playing to look at the rules ... )
Lynata wrote:By the way - I keep hearing about how awesome Uriah and Celestine are, which is all fine and dandy, but I always preferred using "custom" characters, making up my own fluff for them. Did anyone play without any special characters, just using a Canoness and Reti- err, Command Squad for HQ? How did they fare?
Unfortunately it's just not viable at all. Canoness costs far too much, and it's not like you have any wargear to make flavourful characters (alas my poor converted canoness on jet bike), as we lost most all of the fun things. Very, very, very early in the Codex inception, there was the idea of having a heavy weapon squad small unit HQ in a box, but the problem is you have 0 ablative wounds, and your canoness is T3, so yeah. It's just far too costly. To be honest, Celestine is all that grand, but she is huge fun, and VP denying, and fun, and she comes back anyway. Rare is the game Celestine doesn't make back her points. The cost is just enormous. Custom canonesses have gone the way of Chaos Marine HQ choices ;3
More effective is actually a second conclave, I have found, but then I like Celestine so I take her.
Pouncey wrote:I use Jacobus, 3 Crusaders, and 6 Death-Cult Assassins, though I don't always include them in my army, as they don't quite fit with my custom Order's fluff - although, thinking about it for a few seconds, I thought of a way to make it fit better with the custom fluff.
That's been the most success I've had with a conclave set up; people used to do 9 or waste time with arcos, good to see more people using the survivability. I use the dark angels storm shields and half cast/half green stuff sisters. I've yet to settle on what I want as Death Cultists mind you; was considering Reaper Battle Nuns or Daughters of the Flame from Warmachine (currently borrowing someone's~)
Pouncey wrote:I use Jacobus, 3 Crusaders, and 6 Death-Cult Assassins, though I don't always include them in my army, as they don't quite fit with my custom Order's fluff - although, thinking about it for a few seconds, I thought of a way to make it fit better with the custom fluff.
That's been the most success I've had with a conclave set up; people used to do 9 or waste time with arcos, good to see more people using the survivability. I use the dark angels storm shields and half cast/half green stuff sisters. I've yet to settle on what I want as Death Cultists mind you; was considering Reaper Battle Nuns or Daughters of the Flame from Warmachine (currently borrowing someone's~)
I happen to like the Death-Cult Assassin minis, so I'm using those. I have 3 proper Crusader minis and a proper Jacobus mini, but I've also ordered various minis from Reaper to use as Crusaders, as well as a cowgirl mini with a shotgun to use as Jacobus.
They seem very bland and plain; just look at what Necrons are getting in terms of new units. Suppose with it being a white dwarf dex should have expected as much.
Don't particularly like how conclave is only (okay, very) good CC unit, prefer to have more viable choice for an all sisters army.
Less acts of faith, but they're considerably worse, goes against the grain of OTT army special rules that every army since space wolves has been getting (exc Nids), probably should have gotten stubborn since every army seems to be getting its own USR.
Somebody earlier on mentioned Acts of faith and Pain tokens being confusing; there are like, six units in an army and how many do you really think are going to get the chance to wipe out an enemy unit. From my exp with dark eldar, not many, if you can count to ten, then you'll be fine.
Personally I'd have preferred if they had made Celestine more exp, but more powerful to represent her unique status. As it stands she seems like the sort of cheap/neat CC boost you get from a Nid prime with boneswords and thats hardly dramatic.
BTW do you think they might do the sisters after Necrons round febuary time? Just before 6th edition, or is that probably misguided hope?
On turn 3 of a game using a Canoness and Command Squad instead of Jacobus and Battle Conclave.
It's hard to tell what exactly is going wrong for me. My melee stuff - Repentia and Penitent Engines - are mostly dead without killing much at all, and I'm about to lose two of my scoring units, probably three if I don't manage to kill off that Command Squad. My Retributors - with heavy bolters of course - have whiffed each and every one of their AoF rolls, but managed to kill 3 Assault Marines and a member of the Command Squad.
It's hard to tell how my Canoness is doing, cause she's been in a Rhino with her Command Squad - it was cheaper than an Immolator - in a completely useless part of the board.
Overall, my diagnosis is the tabletop gaming equivalent of PEBKAC - Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair. Which is to say that my generalsmanship... That's not a word, but whatever... has been extremely poor. I've been in more dire situations in the game before and pulled out a victory, but the way I've been playing... well, lets just say it'd be appropriate to wonder if I'm hallucinating and delusional that I'm playing a low model count Orks army.
More test games are in order after this.
Edit: I also haven't quite figured out what my Command Squad is supposed to do, other than suck up points. Maybe because I went with models I already have and love and took one stormbolter and two bolters for the Celestians' loadouts. Their role would then basically be, terrible short-ranged shooting unit. I'd probably get more mileage out of them if I dropped the Rhino and took a "proper" squad of Celestians, though I do love the Hospitaler model - hell, I broke my vow not to get Inquisitorial stuff in the Witch Hunters dex just so I could field two of them. It's not like I'd be sacrificing the retinue rule, cause it doesn't apply anyways.
Yeah, unfortunately the only thing they could bring is a heavy weapon unit, and that'd be too small for what it does, big point sink sadly, and Uriah bomb is too valuable to use them.
I kind of miss the option to take an inquisitor with plasma cannon, 2 heavy bolters and a psycannon from the DH, that could be entertaining, especially for the Deep Strike popping days
Spiku wrote:Yeah, unfortunately the only thing they could bring is a heavy weapon unit, and that'd be too small for what it does, big point sink sadly, and Uriah bomb is too valuable to use them.
I kind of miss the option to take an inquisitor with plasma cannon, 2 heavy bolters and a psycannon from the DH, that could be entertaining, especially for the Deep Strike popping days
:: nods and sighs :: I may have to retire my Hospitaler minis... But at least I get to use some DCA minis. ^_^
pretre wrote:For those of us who talk to others and leave our mom's basement though, we do have to come to a common consensus on rules. This means using current codexes, 5th edition rules, etc.
Of course you can do whatever you want in your home.
Well done, not only did you manage to insult me and every casual gamer in the same phrase, you also made a fool of yourself by saying you are an internet tough guy (FYI the term is negative).
Deep breaths, BBA. Deep breaths. It was a joke. Hence the fact that I called myself an ITG.
If you think that the majority of players are nerds living at their mom's basement, then you are not that much of a social genius either. A great many players play at their friends' house/LGS. So, by your logic, that makes them also nerds living at their mom's basement. Many of these nerds know each other well, and usually allow each other to use old codices, rules or models if they desire. This hobby is about having fun with friends, not winning tournaments you know.
Joke. I think you need to calm down. Even if you only play at LGS, chances are you will play with people who do not have a common ground with you. Then it is best to use established and current codexes.
But mostly, chill. Toy soldiers aren't half as serious as you're making them out to be.
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forruner_mercy wrote:Seems to be a case of YMMV so var.
Exactly.
@Spiku: 100 games since it released? Wow. I don't think I play 100 games in a year and I play a fair amount.
Oh. So how many games of table 40k? I don't know that I really count Vassal as 40k; It just isn't the same.
Edit: And since folks were touchy earlier, I'm not knocking you for playing Vassal, just stating my opinion of the program.
Ogryn wrote:I actually leave my house quite often.
Good. ^_^
I don't leave the house mainly because I have no reason to. Very few real-life friends to visit, no job to work at, no school to attend, and I'm not the most sociable person when it comes to strangers.
Returning the conversation to where it was before this all got weird...
I think the new rules are certainly playable but certainly show signs of half-assedness.
My biggest complaint is that there is a massive disparity between the "good" units and the rest of the book. Uriah and Celestine are the only viable HQ options. Comparing abilities and points to the standard Canoness and Confessor it's just shocking how far apart they are.
The Canoness is so bad it doesn't even make sense. You can't even argue for her as an unlock to the Command Squad since there's absolutely no synergy between the two units. It appears that the Canoness works best with a squad of Celestians, but they're way too expensive for what they bring to the table, unless you're just using them as an extra faux-Dominion squad to max out your melta choices.
A real interesting unit would be to give the Relentless AoF from the Command Squad to the standard Celestian squad. That way they could advance firing their bolters and then actually use their extra attack to mop up the enemy. You could match that up with a Canoness (45pts like the old one was) who had a Furious Charge AoF. That would be fun.
I haven't played with Repentia yet. They're undeniably much better than before but I still don't trust them and don't count them among the "good" units.
Battle Sisters lost a lot of their punch without Divine Guidance, but other parts of the army gained killing power so in the games I've played, I have to remind myself that they're no longer the core killing element. They take much more of a support role now as opposed to the previous version where you wanted to really press the enemy with them.
Dominions and Seraphim are the no-brainers. I think that Dominions are the best choice in the army and I've had a lot of success with 10-woman melta squads. I like to take them in Rhinos because of the fire points. I'm so utterly enraged by the fact that they stripped the fire points from the Immolator. This is another clear indicator of the half-assedness of the list.
I don't really see any reason to take inferno pistol Seras because the Dominions can do the same thing, at longer range, from the safety and comfort of a Rhino. I also think the flamer Seras are not quite as good as their counterpart Dominions since again, for the same points Dominions get to do it with the big-girl flamers. I only take them because I have and like the models. That said, in the four games I've played with the new rules they've had pretty reasonable success.
For Heavy Support I'm so glad that Retributors are viable again. Being able to get two HB Retributor squads for less than the price of one from the Witch Hunters book is so nice. I've heard people complain that you can only expect a single rending hit per turn, but that really misses the point. You only need one for them to be effective against vehicles. That you can expect a rend means that you can expect to damage anything up to AV12. Having run the numbers, a Retributor squad is more effective vs AV 10 and 11 than a rifleman dreadnought.
Regarding the Exorcist and the Penitent Engines, they're mostly unchanged so anything said about them before still applies.
I don't know, never been a big fan of maxing out on special weapons and its something most Imperial armies, esp guard, can do just as well if not better.
I mean seraphim, what do they actually achieve for such a high cost unit apart from jumping around and maybe flaming/meltaing. Pistols are hardly scary compared to the sort of firepower you get in a scourge squad. I would have prefered seraphim being made more closer to gargoyles as a cheap (13-15?) jump pack unit (that can be taken as troops... ), or give them access to CC weapons.
Well, in 4th edition what was scary was 3++ saves, hit in run always, and double tapping pistols with divine guidance next turn. Oh and DG flamers. And +initiative or +str acts of faith alongside eviscerator. And a bubble of unmodifiable leadership. Also you could consolidate into combat, so you could clear an entire guard army with just what is left of your seraphim trying to get into range.
Now in 5th, with badex update, they're bad, but 4 flamer templates with rerolls to wound is nothing to be snarked at really given their ability to position. But they're bad.
Just like Retributors still have no reason to be taken when you can just get exorcists. Unless you like the models and want an extra transport for someone
Spiku wrote:Well, in 4th edition what was scary was 3++ saves, hit in run always, and double tapping pistols with divine guidance next turn. Oh and DG flamers. And +initiative or +str acts of faith alongside eviscerator. And a bubble of unmodifiable leadership. Also you could consolidate into combat, so you could clear an entire guard army with just what is left of your seraphim trying to get into range.
Now in 5th, with badex update, they're bad, but 4 flamer templates with rerolls to wound is nothing to be snarked at really given their ability to position. But they're bad.
Just like Retributors still have no reason to be taken when you can just get exorcists. Unless you like the models and want an extra transport for someone
Only ever played one game against the old sisters and TBH at a 1000pts that player never seemed to have enough faith for it to be relevent. BTB, the great bastard was playing my tau army and casually walked through my pulse rifle firestorm before bashing my firewarriors skulls in . U do know the +str and initaitve acts couldn't be used with eviserators; right. Did you basically put all of your faith on one unit?
Totalwar1402 wrote:I don't know, never been a big fan of maxing out on special weapons and its something most Imperial armies, esp guard, can do just as well if not better.
I mean seraphim, what do they actually achieve for such a high cost unit apart from jumping around and maybe flaming/meltaing. Pistols are hardly scary compared to the sort of firepower you get in a scourge squad. I would have prefered seraphim being made more closer to gargoyles as a cheap (13-15?) jump pack unit (that can be taken as troops... ), or give them access to CC weapons.
They can shoot each pistol they carry without an Act of Faith. Its fairly strong actually even with flamer pistols especially if you get an act of faith off.
Sister Superiors should have more options though. Why drop eviscerators on all of them but Seraphim Superior's though? Why not have hand flamers and inferno pistols available for all superiors also. If the Blood Angels can do it why not Sisters. Combi-weapons are too expensive of an option in most cases. All Sisters shoudl ahve been Stubborn too. Its quite fitting for thier fluff of almost never braeking and standing their ground in the face of impossible odds to their detriment even.
Exactly, they're an army of fanatics, stubborn is a very good way of representing this. I mean space wolves get counter attack, one of the best USR out there and Dark Eldar FNP (very useful for countering the DE assault being wiped out by shooting after its initial assault).
Thinking of trading my orks for them. The rules, while not perfect, have a few gems I will enjoy greatly. Shield of faith permits a 'solid walking line of purge' to some degree, for example. Who needs cover? PURGE THE UNCLEAN.
Yes I'm serious.
No I'm not under any influences.
I play for fun, not for competition. I enjoy under-dog-ness. Infact I -was- going to play Necrons until their new update became apparent.
I'm sure I can find some people wanting a large ork army for their sisters.
JoeyFox wrote:Thinking of trading my orks for them. The rules, while not perfect, have a few gems I will enjoy greatly. Shield of faith permits a 'solid walking line of purge' to some degree, for example. Who needs cover? PURGE THE UNCLEAN.
Yes I'm serious.
No I'm not under any influences.
I play for fun, not for competition. I enjoy under-dog-ness. Infact I -was- going to play Necrons until their new update became apparent.
I'm sure I can find some people wanting a large ork army for their sisters.
Honestly if you are just playing for fun, why not use the WH dex.
JoeyFox wrote:Thinking of trading my orks for them. The rules, while not perfect, have a few gems I will enjoy greatly. Shield of faith permits a 'solid walking line of purge' to some degree, for example. Who needs cover? PURGE THE UNCLEAN.
Yes I'm serious.
No I'm not under any influences.
I play for fun, not for competition. I enjoy under-dog-ness. Infact I -was- going to play Necrons until their new update became apparent.
I'm sure I can find some people wanting a large ork army for their sisters.
Honestly if you are just playing for fun, why not use the WH dex.
Because it isn't sold anymore and isn't the most up to date book? As well, he clearly says he likes 'under-dog-ness'.
JoeyFox wrote:Thinking of trading my orks for them. The rules, while not perfect, have a few gems I will enjoy greatly. Shield of faith permits a 'solid walking line of purge' to some degree, for example. Who needs cover? PURGE THE UNCLEAN.
Yes I'm serious.
No I'm not under any influences.
I play for fun, not for competition. I enjoy under-dog-ness. Infact I -was- going to play Necrons until their new update became apparent.
I'm sure I can find some people wanting a large ork army for their sisters.
Honestly if you are just playing for fun, why not use the WH dex.
Because it isn't sold anymore and isn't the most up to date book? As well, he clearly says he likes 'under-dog-ness'.
Correct on all accounts. As well as I want to play Sisters of Battle - not Witch Hunters. I could acquire the WH codex locally, some still have it... but I like the new codex as it stands more-so. The old-dex just feels to "Inquisitor with auxillarys" to me.
I do wish they would release an "Codex: Inquisition" that can be taken with any Imperial force. A few HQ and Elite units. Nothing uber. As well as a "Codex: Mercenaries" with Kroot/Pirates/Free-bootas to work with (most) armies in very limited order, or stand alone.
He also said he just plays for fun; you can be an underdog without over handicapping yourself. Considering the new books, the WH list is more competitive, and with it both he and his opponent will have a good game without the sister’s player becoming frustrated over the lack of options in his list. Not everyone plays tournaments, the main rule it to have fun and if that means using an older book go for it. At my local GW there is a group of guys that come in every now and then and all they do is play 2nd end nobody, staff or customers bothers them and they always have fun. Unless you are playing in a tourney you can do whatever you want, now where in the main rule book does it say you have to use the most current rubbish that GW publishes, in fact it specifically says having fun is the most important rule.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:He also said he just plays for fun; you can be an underdog without over handicapping yourself. Considering the new books, the WH list is more competitive, and with it both he and his opponent will have a good game without the sister’s player becoming frustrated over the lack of options in his list. Not everyone plays tournaments, the main rule it to have fun and if that means using an older book go for it. At my local GW there is a group of guys that come in every now and then and all they do is play 2nd end nobody, staff or customers bothers them and they always have fun. Unless you are playing in a tourney you can do whatever you want, now where in the main rule book does it say you have to use the most current rubbish that GW publishes, in fact it specifically says having fun is the most important rule.
True too. Catachan Codex was never properly replaced, one guy claims at our store...he runs the old "latest" catachans...
Thank you for trying to help either way. I could just compile the old codex with the new WD codex... but thats making my own dex and, as I said elsewhere, I don't like that.
To stay on topic though, with the current sisters? The 'useful' of certain options seems more interesting to me then the old dex. Scouting Sisters in Immolators? Yes please. Sisters + Immolators in every slot? A possible option.
Totalwar1402 wrote:Only ever played one game against the old sisters and TBH at a 1000pts that player never seemed to have enough faith for it to be relevent. BTB, the great bastard was playing my tau army and casually walked through my pulse rifle firestorm before bashing my firewarriors skulls in . U do know the +str and initaitve acts couldn't be used with eviserators; right. Did you basically put all of your faith on one unit?
At 1K I'm riding my 3 exorcists more then seraphim, tactics change generally.
The +Str can work with eviscerators on your VSS, but generally I'd throw my seraphim at thins like firewarriors, knowing I'd slaughter them with the flamers, charge and probably -not- kill them, or if I knew I would, make sure I was going to consolidate into something else. I had about 13 faith points, and I'd spend more of my points went on my cannoness (who refunded plenty) and my seraphim than I would on my standards, though I certainly did like my DG basic troops. Generally I just rode up 12 inches in rhinos and fired heavy flamer and melta from inside the box though ;3
The +str could be used with eviscerators, +initiative would just let your normal sisters attack before the target they were fighting. Generally speaking those were best used on the canoness anyway. I also made use of Celestine in games I felt confident I could pull it off; abusing the old targetting rules re: IC's, and area terrain, meant she never could be isolated. Unless you mean repentia, who for some bizarre reason weren't faithful, despite being noted as the most devoted sisters, in which case I only ever used them ever at all ever in apoc games, when I needed to make up points.
Most importantly I could use my acts of faith during their turn, which was the huge change.
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JoeyFox wrote:
Correct on all accounts. As well as I want to play Sisters of Battle - not Witch Hunters. I could acquire the WH codex locally, some still have it... but I like the new codex as it stands more-so. The old-dex just feels to "Inquisitor with auxillarys" to me.
I do wish they would release an "Codex: Inquisition" that can be taken with any Imperial force. A few HQ and Elite units. Nothing uber. As well as a "Codex: Mercenaries" with Kroot/Pirates/Free-bootas to work with (most) armies in very limited order, or stand alone.
For the record, I have 0 WH inquisitorial units, and I played WH codex. About 4k points worth of sisters I have. There is nothing stopping you playing WH as sisters only, and in actuall fact they are FAR better, as pure sisters. Well, actually you could probably pull off better with inquisitorials, but I was happy with my heavy flamer melta box sisters, and it let me stay all sisters all the time.
The only inquisitor I have, was a Daemon Hunter allied one for fun :psycannon 2 heavy bolter plascannon shooty with rerolls and shooting at anyone who deep strikes near me, and the Land Raider if I wanted.
Totalwar1402 wrote:I don't know, never been a big fan of maxing out on special weapons and its something most Imperial armies, esp guard, can do just as well if not better.
I don't understand this at all. If you're not maxing out on special weapons what's the point of taking anything other than Battle Sister squads? Just becaust a melta-vet squad is cheaper than a similar squad of Dominions doesn't make the Dominions not worth it. And let's be honest, it's not like Sisters have access to heaps of firepower from other places in the army list. If you're not maxing special weapons, you're maxing bolters and bolters just aren't going to get the job done.
Totalwar1402 wrote:
I mean seraphim, what do they actually achieve for such a high cost unit apart from jumping around and maybe flaming/meltaing. Pistols are hardly scary compared to the sort of firepower you get in a scourge squad. I would have prefered seraphim being made more closer to gargoyles as a cheap (13-15?) jump pack unit (that can be taken as troops... ), or give them access to CC weapons.
Seraphim are functionally equivalent to Dominions in a Sisters army and similarly armed squads cost almost the same amount in terms of points. By being able to twin-fire their pistols you effectively achieve the same effect of a Dominion squad with four special weapons. There are some tradeoffs. Seras get Deep Strike instead of Scouts, which is a minus. Their shooting is a little weaker, 6" range for meltas, and S3 for flamers, also a minus. Seras are better in HtH (WS4, 2 Attacks) and don't have to rely on a vehicle for mobility. They also get the re-roll for faith and their 6++ (which effectively makes it a 5++).
Your concern about points cost and combat weapons aren't really relevant since they're already 15 points and have two CCWs. I'd love it if they could be taken as troops as well. Hopefully there will be a special HQ in the real codex that will allow something cool like that.
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Spiku wrote:Just like Retributors still have no reason to be taken when you can just get exorcists. Unless you like the models and want an extra transport for someone
I disagree. At 85 points (105 with a Simulacrum) for a squad with 4 Heavy Bolters Retributors are a steal.
What are the tradeoffs between the two units?
On the average case (w/ Divine Guidance), the Rets are more likely to score a penetrating hit on AV 11, 12, and 13.
AV 10 is slightly in the Exorcist's favor.
Exorcist's AP1 is very nice as is its ability to move 6" and fire.
Rets are completely static.
On both a glance and a pen the Exorcist can't shoot on any result that's not "Immobilized".
Until they start to take wounds Rets will always give you 12 shots as opposed to the random fire of the Exorcist.
Rets need a 4+ to get the rending ability, but can buy a re-roll for 20 points.
I don't think the choice is so clear. Rets are a strong option by themselves and the ability to "double up" and get a MM Immolator in the same org slot (for only 30 more pts than the Exorcist) is a pretty compelling argument.
Totalwar1402 wrote:I would have prefered seraphim being made more closer to gargoyles as a cheap (13-15?) jump pack unit (that can be taken as troops... ), or give them access to CC weapons.
Please, no cheap Seraphim troops! They've always been the elite of the Orders Militant - even before GW invented the Celestians to compete with them. CC weapons would have been sweet, though - and their old initiative. Given how they are supposedly trained in advanced close combat techniques you'd think they should fare a little better in melee, and it would have been nice to have a real Sisters-CC unit (well, as close as it gets) instead of having to rely on the Ecclesiarchy for this.
JoeyFox wrote:I do wish they would release an "Codex: Inquisition" that can be taken with any Imperial force. A few HQ and Elite units. Nothing uber.
So true! This is what they should release in WD instead of rushed "full army" codices with minimum page count.
Totalwar1402 wrote:I don't know, never been a big fan of maxing out on special weapons and its something most Imperial armies, esp guard, can do just as well if not better.
I don't understand this at all. If you're not maxing out on special weapons what's the point of taking anything other than Battle Sister squads? Just becaust a melta-vet squad is cheaper than a similar squad of Dominions doesn't make the Dominions not worth it. And let's be honest, it's not like Sisters have access to heaps of firepower from other places in the army list. If you're not maxing special weapons, you're maxing bolters and bolters just aren't going to get the job done.
Totalwar1402 wrote:
I mean seraphim, what do they actually achieve for such a high cost unit apart from jumping around and maybe flaming/meltaing. Pistols are hardly scary compared to the sort of firepower you get in a scourge squad. I would have prefered seraphim being made more closer to gargoyles as a cheap (13-15?) jump pack unit (that can be taken as troops... ), or give them access to CC weapons.
Seraphim are functionally equivalent to Dominions in a Sisters army and similarly armed squads cost almost the same amount in terms of points. By being able to twin-fire their pistols you effectively achieve the same effect of a Dominion squad with four special weapons. There are some tradeoffs. Seras get Deep Strike instead of Scouts, which is a minus. Their shooting is a little weaker, 6" range for meltas, and S3 for flamers, also a minus. Seras are better in HtH (WS4, 2 Attacks) and don't have to rely on a vehicle for mobility. They also get the re-roll for faith and their 6++ (which effectively makes it a 5++).
Your concern about points cost and combat weapons aren't really relevant since they're already 15 points and have two CCWs. I'd love it if they could be taken as troops as well. Hopefully there will be a special HQ in the real codex that will allow something cool like that.
* I was refering to the game in general, not just SOB, you HAVE to take these guns regardless of army, and one of the endless complaints made of Necron warriors and FW is that they don't have acces to them because its where the killings at. Maxing on bolters wouldn't give me a fraction of the killing power even a handful of meltas would, due to utility and being able to kill termies n monstrous creatures reliably. Don't even mean at tournaments, not a major problem, just a pet hate.
* By CCW I meant possibly like 1-2 having the option of power sowrds or lightening claws or eviserators etc. Just a suggestion. That is quite neat points for a 3+ jump pack , I knew they had went down but not by seven points.
Aye, maybe celstine would allow you to take an all Seraphim army next dex.
* BTW somebody mentioned playing for fun above, Iam not a tourney player, never been to one, but, the group Iam with generally accept that we all take enjoyment in beating the other. Doing themed campaigns is very important, but even that only adds a sense of personal vendetta. So fun for me is to have a laugh whilst doing your darnest to kill the enemy because he's your friend and he'll do the same to you.
Totalwar1402 wrote:
* I was refering to the game in general, not just SOB, you HAVE to take these guns regardless of army, and one of the endless complaints made of Necron warriors and FW is that they don't have acces to them because its where the killings at. Maxing on bolters wouldn't give me a fraction of the killing power even a handful of meltas would, due to utility and being able to kill termies n monstrous creatures reliably. Don't even mean at tournaments, not a major problem, just a pet hate.
I still don't really get it. What's the other option? Even in reality, you can't have an army of nothing but small arms fire, or confine all of your big guns to tanks and air support. Units have to be flexible.
Totalwar1402 wrote:
* By CCW I meant possibly like 1-2 having the option of power sowrds or lightening claws or eviserators etc. Just a suggestion. That is quite neat points for a 3+ jump pack , I knew they had went down but not by seven points.
Aye, maybe celstine would allow you to take an all Seraphim army next dex.
I think that this would be a better option for Celestians. Seraphim are pistol specialists and should stay that way. That doesn't mean they can't get some bitchin upgrades for their pistols. How cool would it be if the Superior could carry some awesome set of pistols with power blades on the ends?
Totalwar1402 wrote:
* I was refering to the game in general, not just SOB, you HAVE to take these guns regardless of army, and one of the endless complaints made of Necron warriors and FW is that they don't have acces to them because its where the killings at. Maxing on bolters wouldn't give me a fraction of the killing power even a handful of meltas would, due to utility and being able to kill termies n monstrous creatures reliably. Don't even mean at tournaments, not a major problem, just a pet hate.
I still don't really get it. What's the other option? Even in reality, you can't have an army of nothing but small arms fire, or confine all of your big guns to tanks and air support. Units have to be flexible.
Totalwar1402 wrote:
* By CCW I meant possibly like 1-2 having the option of power sowrds or lightening claws or eviserators etc. Just a suggestion. That is quite neat points for a 3+ jump pack , I knew they had went down but not by seven points.
Aye, maybe celstine would allow you to take an all Seraphim army next dex.
I think that this would be a better option for Celestians. Seraphim are pistol specialists and should stay that way. That doesn't mean they can't get some bitchin upgrades for their pistols. How cool would it be if the Superior could carry some awesome set of pistols with power blades on the ends?
Hm... A revival of the old Sarissa stuff, but with power weaponry and on pistols?
It occurs to me, I don't remember what Sarissa did for a model who took it as wargear. But I know it was basically a bayonet.
Pouncey wrote:
Hm... A revival of the old Sarissa stuff, but with power weaponry and on pistols?
It occurs to me, I don't remember what Sarissa did for a model who took it as wargear. But I know it was basically a bayonet.
There's a reason you don't remember it. It cost 5 pts and gave a single re-roll to wound in HtH, but only if the user fought with just their bolter. It was absolutely terrible and no one ever used them.
I'm not sure where GW got the idea to call it a sarissa either. An actual sarissa is an 18 foot long spear used by Greek phalanxes.
Amerikon wrote:How cool would it be if the Superior could carry some awesome set of pistols with power blades on the ends?
Eh... I dunno, that sounds a bit silly. Personally, I like the "purity" the Sisters' designs have right now.
Individual preferences, of course. I've always thought that Sisters Superior need to have a gun+blade combo as a badge of office.
@ Sarissas: I'd actually like to see them return, the basic idea (bolter bayonets, or small axes if you will) had style. And more wargear is always good.
Just give them a better effect and make them a useful leader/squad upgrade... Or, alternatively, use the old "reroll once" effect, but make it cheaper and allow it to be used on receiving a charge as well, not only when you charge.
Amerikon wrote:How cool would it be if the Superior could carry some awesome set of pistols with power blades on the ends?
Eh... I dunno, that sounds a bit silly. Personally, I like the "purity" the Sisters' designs have right now.
Individual preferences, of course. I've always thought that Sisters Superior need to have a gun+blade combo as a badge of office.
I've always imagined Seraphim as Power Armored Grammaton Clerics, if you've seen the move Equilibrium. In my mind I envision a Sister Superior calmly walking through a swathe of enemy troops perfectly executing the moves of the Gun Kata. Brief pauses between shots are punctuated by the wet sound of her power blades slicing through armor, flesh, and bone as if it was nothing more than the air around her.
Amerikon wrote: I don't think the choice is so clear. Rets are a strong option by themselves and the ability to "double up" and get a MM Immolator in the same org slot (for only 30 more pts than the Exorcist) is a pretty compelling argument.
I disagree. We have a -very- limited number of faith points to use each turn, and they are best spent ensuring that your FA get to make use of their re-rolls. Exorcists need to be fielded in multiples to ensure an average curve on missiles, provide moving long range ap1 s8, as well as draw anti-tank, which would be focused on the immolator/rhino push. The lack of movement on the rets means that it is easier to deny full firing lanes for them, and you are entirely reliant on cover to keep them up. The exorcists let you deal with armour at range, or drop muliple instant kill shots on harder to reach targets; retributors bring nothing we haven't got covered in some way, and more exorcists is more insurance. The faith pool is a huge thing to consider, and the rets have never performed noticeably in the games I have played with them; we have flamers for anti troop, we have meltas up front, and I want those faith points on re-rolls on my specials, and for keeping my objective units passing leadership tests
Totalwar1402 wrote:
* I was refering to the game in general, not just SOB, you HAVE to take these guns regardless of army, and one of the endless complaints made of Necron warriors and FW is that they don't have acces to them because its where the killings at. Maxing on bolters wouldn't give me a fraction of the killing power even a handful of meltas would, due to utility and being able to kill termies n monstrous creatures reliably. Don't even mean at tournaments, not a major problem, just a pet hate.
I still don't really get it. What's the other option? Even in reality, you can't have an army of nothing but small arms fire, or confine all of your big guns to tanks and air support. Units have to be flexible.
Specialise your troops in anti infantry to keep them targeting mainly other infantry and invest in tanks/anti-tank infantry to hunt down armour/elite CC units. For example in dark eldar army I usually take my warrior squads with venom cannons (cheap) rather than dark lances where most of the squad would be going to waste (I have atrocious luck with these things). Likewise, some armies, necrons and tau are built around this exact premise, supposedly giving up flexibility for greater killing power/survivability, they suffer though because a crafty opponent will just focus on knocking out your anti tank and then kill you with impunity.
Iam no military expert, but I thought modern soldiers relied massively on supporting arms like jet fighters, apache gunships and such; which all offer far more firepower than they could ever carry. They might have javelins and stingers but thats still not quite the same. Also, they're specialist guns, most killing is still done by the small arms fire. But thats rarely the case in 40k, plasma guns and lascannons are good no matter what you go against. Taking that meltagun rather than an extra SOB is a no brainer, taking that extra plasma gun rather than a guard vet is just plain common sense how the army is wrote down. A javelin on the other hand, is more of a back up weapon in case the squad is out of its depth agaisnt armour and can't really be much use against anything else.
Also, I should probably clarify, I was more refering to plasma/melta spam than anything else and the obvious biases in taking those sorts of weapons in armies that offer them over flamers, grenade launchers, storm bolters, sniper rifles etc.Making the squad just vessels for the players special weapons. Just a pet hate.
Amerikon wrote:I've always imagined Seraphim as Power Armored Grammaton Clerics, if you've seen the move Equilibrium. In my mind I envision a Sister Superior calmly walking through a swathe of enemy troops perfectly executing the moves of the Gun Kata. Brief pauses between shots are punctuated by the wet sound of her power blades slicing through armor, flesh, and bone as if it was nothing more than the air around her.
Oooh. Funny, I had the exact same comparison in my mind. Just no blades on the pistols themselves (I can actually see this work in combat, it's just the looks that I couldn't get used to ) - but kicks and pistol-whipping, supported by the jetpacks on their backs. Good for a strong charge as well as for hovering in front of the enemy for a roundhouse-kick, simultaneously pushing the Seraphim out of melee range for a finisher with her guns whilst the opponent is still reeling...
Of course a proper sword could still come in handy, both as the Superior's badge of office as well as a backup sidearm. I remember the Seraphim in DoW had some sort of mono-saber they drew for melee, I thought that was kinda fitting.
DarknessEternal wrote:I'd rather have the current version at their dirt cheap price.
/shrug
I'm not using them again in this edition, so it doesn't matter to me. It has been a long time since I've used them purely on their own merits (3rd edition?). I'd love for them to be best in slot again. Right now, Doms outclass them in my list. If they were elite, maybe I could fit them in.
I would like to see them become a cross between stern guard and assault marines. Give them special ammo with their TL bolt pistols giving them mobility and fire power, but with a limited range so they are not too powerful.
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I would like to see them become a cross between stern guard and assault marines. Give them special ammo with their TL bolt pistols giving them mobility and fire power, but with a limited range so they are not too powerful.
I'd rather have something new and different rather than Marines Lite (tm).
Back on topic, I'm finishing painting up some new vehicles I got for my SoB. Replacing the 8-10 year old converted exorcists I have with actual models and adding some TL-MM immos into the force. The last of my old Rhinos are being retired. :(
I'll be bringing the girls to a local 1750 tournament (Guardian Cup!) and putting them through their paces. That will give me a pretty good idea of how much I enjoy / can win with them in a real world environment. Garage games only tell me so much.
Celestine
Uriah with 3 Crusaders, 6 DCA in a Rhino
Repentia (5)
Sister Squad (10) - Melta/MM, Chainsword in a Rhino (hijacked by Repentia)
Sister Squad (10) - Melta/HF, Chainsword in a Rhino
Dominions (5) - Flamer x2, Chainsword/CombiMelta in a TL-MM Immo
Dominions (5) - Flamer x2, Chainsword/CombiMelta in a TL-MM Immo
Dominions (5) - Melta x2, Chainsword/Melta Bombs in a TL-MM Immo
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Definately scared for your troop choices; it's one of the few occasions I'd suggest getting out some Retributor bodies to give your repentia a vehical, even at the cost of one exorcist.
pretre wrote:Celestine
Uriah with 3 Crusaders, 6 DCA in a Rhino
Repentia (5)
Sister Squad (10) - Melta/MM, Chainsword in a Rhino (hijacked by Repentia)
Sister Squad (10) - Melta/HF, Chainsword in a Rhino
Dominions (5) - Flamer x2, Chainsword/CombiMelta in a TL-MM Immo
Dominions (5) - Flamer x2, Chainsword/CombiMelta in a TL-MM Immo
Dominions (5) - Melta x2, Chainsword/Melta Bombs in a TL-MM Immo
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
Is your plan to play for annhilation regardless of objectives? It can work certainly, buts not reliable becuase there are armies who are simply too tough to be blown off the map by an army like Sisters
Agreed, troops are an issue, but adding +1 sisters squad really gets you nowhere/nothing other than scoring. Keep in mind that I can choose to reserve or leave the sisters in Rhinos and not really lose much.
I've also been playing with lists with a third troops choice, but it is rough at low points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other list I was considering was:
Celestine
Uriah with 2 Crus, 6 DCA in Rhino
Repentia (5)
Sisters (10) - MM/Melta, Chainsword
Sisters (10) - HF/Melta, Chainsword - Rhino
Sisters (10) - HB/Melta, Chainsword - TL-MM Immo
Doms (5) - 2xFlamer, Chainsword, CombiM - TL-MM Immo
Doms (5) - 2xFlamer, Chainsword, CombiM - TL-MM Immo
Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist
I do have to say I don't feel the repentia are bringing you anything extra, but I can tell you wouldn't be packing them if you didnt like them ;3
The sister units do actually let you force control of lanes somewhat; as long as you focus on their long range with your dominions and exorcists, even when they get cleaned up you have control of their troop movement with the MM and melta sister units with leadership enforceable.
Do report back, but make sure to keep an eye on how you feel you would have done with another layout; whenever I played with unsure lists, I would use a different colour dice set for all the units I was thinking of switching out to see how they compared if I didn't have them ;D (my retributor exorcist would always roll 4-6's for shots of course, just to screw that)
Repentia give me parking lot threat. I'm specifically avoiding Doms having meltas to give the list some duality. If everything is melta, it sucks when you run into horde. Afterall, I have a lot of Melta in that list.
The nice thing about hoards, is that DCA's cut through them with 5 attacks, and often get to use the FNP vs them. Celestine loves a Hoard to, because she undermines the anti elite effect of knowing you will kill with 1000 cuts.
Though I freely admit I keep a unit of seraphim for my flamers vs hoard
pretre wrote:Also, Repentia are in there because it is hard to spend small points values.
That has been my biggest hurdle in list building. I often times come to a point in building where I have 90 points left which leaves a left but not enough to buy a real unit. Most codices you coudl buy some extra troops (Usually a + in 5th), but not Sisters whomust spend 125+ with this codex. Sometimes I plug it with Repentia who usually end up dead before I do anything with them and sometimes I buy extra armor for a bunch of my transports. I'm finding the extra armor of more benefit so far.
Amerikon wrote: I don't think the choice is so clear. Rets are a strong option by themselves and the ability to "double up" and get a MM Immolator in the same org slot (for only 30 more pts than the Exorcist) is a pretty compelling argument.
I disagree. We have a -very- limited number of faith points to use each turn, and they are best spent ensuring that your FA get to make use of their re-rolls. Exorcists need to be fielded in multiples to ensure an average curve on missiles, provide moving long range ap1 s8, as well as draw anti-tank, which would be focused on the immolator/rhino push. The lack of movement on the rets means that it is easier to deny full firing lanes for them, and you are entirely reliant on cover to keep them up. The exorcists let you deal with armour at range, or drop muliple instant kill shots on harder to reach targets; retributors bring nothing we haven't got covered in some way, and more exorcists is more insurance. The faith pool is a huge thing to consider, and the rets have never performed noticeably in the games I have played with them; we have flamers for anti troop, we have meltas up front, and I want those faith points on re-rolls on my specials, and for keeping my objective units passing leadership tests
Faith point priority is army dependent. I like to take full Dominion squads with 4 meltas, so twin-linking isn't always critical for that unit. Seras desperately need their re-rolls to wound but they've got a 75% chance of getting their act off right out of the box. Obviously rallying a broken Battle Sister squad is priority 1 but that doesn't happen too often. So in my army I've usually got a point or two to give to my Retributor squads.
3 Exorcists are equal in points to 3 Retributor squads and 2 MM Immolators. I think the latter is probably the better deal. The Retributors are more flexible. They're good at most of what the Exorcists are good at and all of things the Exorcist isn't well suited for. The only real loss is against T4, multi-wound enemies, but I've got so much S8 AP1 in my army already that I don't really miss it.
Also deflecting fire away from the transports is nice but you can get the same effect by adding more transports (MM Immolators from the Ret squads). That brings up another point. Exorcists are fire magnets. They're almost always the highest priority target on the board for our opponents and they're very easy to neutralize. (85% of the time it gets glanced or penned the Exorcist can't shoot.) Rets are seen as less of a target and they're harder to completely neutralize in spite of the fact that they're just as powerful as the Exorcist.
Amerikon wrote:
Faith point priority is army dependent. I like to take full Dominion squads with 4 meltas, so twin-linking isn't always critical for that unit. Seras desperately need their re-rolls to wound but they've got a 75% chance of getting their act off right out of the box. Obviously rallying a broken Battle Sister squad is priority 1 but that doesn't happen too often. So in my army I've usually got a point or two to give to my Retributor squads.
3 Exorcists are equal in points to 3 Retributor squads and 2 MM Immolators. I think the latter is probably the better deal. The Retributors are more flexible. They're good at most of what the Exorcists are good at and all of things the Exorcist isn't well suited for. The only real loss is against T4, multi-wound enemies, but I've got so much S8 AP1 in my army already that I don't really miss it.
Also deflecting fire away from the transports is nice but you can get the same effect by adding more transports (MM Immolators from the Ret squads). That brings up another point. Exorcists are fire magnets. They're almost always the highest priority target on the board for our opponents and they're very easy to neutralize. (85% of the time it gets glanced or penned the Exorcist can't shoot.) Rets are seen as less of a target and they're harder to completely neutralize in spite of the fact that they're just as powerful as the Exorcist.
Full doms at 4 specials means you're losing the immolator MM option, which means you have to double team if you want to pop a vehical and kill whats inside, I certainly wouldn't take that option; immos draws priority too, and has a huge double die pen option. The 3 retributors taken without ablative wounds are easy to drop, and once again cannot move, that is huge. When you have immo's scoutinging with low ablative wound units attached to them, you have a certain amount of firepower concentrated up table, anything spared on exorcists plays further into that, and the retributors will lose effectiveness from any amassed fire, rather than things for taking AV. Taking flat rets is once again forcing you to funnel faith points, and you have a random amount, I'd point out something too:
A) 4 melta sisters all shooting one vehicle, is ensuring that some of those points have gone to waste given you have the re-rolls, this is adding more effective cost to your retributors
B) If you are firing at non-armour units, you want to use the re-roll act to ensure that you you are landing the tasty hits re:elites, or the flat bolter hits as you have 6
Rending retributors are going to be 36", that is a massive drop on the range and safety range in exorcists, especially given the movement; you're also making sure that you've got nearly no ablative wounds on them. Your doms of course will get charged by basic troops to remove them, but we all know that; meaning the templates are free for your rets.
I mean more power to you if that's how you want to play, and I adore the heavy bolter sisters, they have a particularly impressive look, they just don't place. Losing up field immos which let you double up on single targets without costing another squad, putting albative models in the scout range where they are going to be suffering more wounds anyway, and not having ablative wounds stacked on your personal favoured long range to keep up the rending, whilst adding even more faith options, are all things that just cost too much in a -bad- army.
Certainly I've tried 3 ret squads; mostly because 1 exorcist is never enough, so when I went to 2 retributors I just went straight to 3; both ablative wounds option and immo spam, but the key thing was that, essentially, they brought nothing that wasn't matched by exorcists in plurality. For what I found Retributors could provide, you might as well take MM immolator + flamer doms, to re-roll flamer wounds with several hard melta popping and dom torching of all unit types, and keep the 3 exorcists for armour hitting and elite breaking.
Spiku wrote:
Full doms at 4 specials means you're losing the immolator MM option, which means you have to double team if you want to pop a vehical and kill whats inside, I certainly wouldn't take that option;
This doesn't bother me. If you've only got 5 ladies you're not going to put much hurt on whatever is in a transport. On top of that the move and fire restriction of the Immolator along with its lack of fire points makes it, in my opinion, a poor transport option. What it is though, is a good cheap threat.
Spiku wrote:
immos draws priority too, and has a huge double die pen option.
That's exactly what you want. Who cares if you lose a MM Immo? They're there to get in the way and to make your opponent divert their attention. If your throw-away units are attracting fire then you're doing it right.
Spiku wrote:
The 3 retributors taken without ablative wounds are easy to drop, and once again cannot move, that is huge. When you have immo's scoutinging with low ablative wound units attached to them, you have a certain amount of firepower concentrated up table, anything spared on exorcists plays further into that, and the retributors will lose effectiveness from any amassed fire, rather than things for taking AV.
They're not that easy to drop. They should be well out of range of any small arms, which means your opponent has to divert something big if they want to take them out in the early part of the game. Pie plates are probably the most dangerous thing for your Rets. Even still, you should be in cover so you'll still get some sort of save. And yes it sucks that you can lose a few of them. But what's worse, only being able to make half of your shots, or not being able to make any? The Exorcist is an all-or-nothing proposition, it will never be able to fire at 50% or 75%.
Spiku wrote:
Taking flat rets is once again forcing you to funnel faith points, and you have a random amount, I'd point out something too:
A) 4 melta sisters all shooting one vehicle, is ensuring that some of those points have gone to waste given you have the re-rolls, this is adding more effective cost to your retributors
B) If you are firing at non-armour units, you want to use the re-roll act to ensure that you you are landing the tasty hits re:elites, or the flat bolter hits as you have 6
If I'm shooting at a vehicle with 4 meltas, I'm not going to bother twin-linking unless I've got a bunch of extra points. If I'm firing at heavy infantry then I'll certainly want to twin link. This just goes back to faith point priority. The Rets won't need to rend every turn and there will always be turns where you can't get off every act that you want.
Spiku wrote:
Rending retributors are going to be 36", that is a massive drop on the range and safety range in exorcists, especially given the movement; you're also making sure that you've got nearly no ablative wounds on them. Your doms of course will get charged by basic troops to remove them, but we all know that; meaning the templates are free for your rets.
The loss of 12" of range is notable, but the "safety range" for Rets is different than for an Exorcist. Most people aren't going to waste lascannon, missile launcher, or autocannon shots on your girls. If they do, then that's another bonus for you. It's security through obscurity. The enemy is more worried about trying to nab your Immolators or Rhinos and the stuff that's in range in turns one and two aren't going to be anti-infantry weapons. (Except IG artillery).
We don't have to keep beating this dead horse. There are upsides and downsides to both units. I just don't think the Exorcist is the last word on Sisters' Heavy Support.
The "we don't have to beat this dead horse" is a bit amusing comment to me, given I had said that Rets are how you want to play so more power to you to, and then closed saying I had tried rets myself but didn't get results as an end to the discussion as all mechanics had been discussed. I certainly wouldn't say dead horse as in each itteration more basis of our views could be expressed, and the more people discuss their basis, or broach different views on the value of units in relation to their working alongside the army as a whole, the better. Still, I wouldn't have responded at all but I do want to clarify two things that I seem to not explained clearly, rather than do things like respond to the cost of your units doubling up vs explode/clear or anything like that; Rather than draw you in on something, I'm just clearing my bits up:
"immos draws priority too, and has a huge double die pen option."
This was in reference to taking 3 immos with your dominions, not taking another immo with the retributor; the point that you can force 3 important targets right into the top field.
"given the rerolls"
In point A), I should have proofed a little better, as I was referring to the fact that every shot over goes to waste, and has cost you taking other units, and that any -crucial- target, you should be re-rolling on (when I started writing A), it was point B)'s content and switched)
Like I said, more power to you for playing how you want ;3
Can I please get a link to this update, or where I can download the rules? I had almost no interest in the sisters until my girlfriend got an inquisitor model from a friend and now shes interested.
I'm sure someone on the internet has SCRIBeD it somewhere. This kind of thing .COMes up quite a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Came up with a third list that commits the heresy of dropping Celestine. The hard part was filling points for the 40 left over. Random extra combis and upgrades to HF because there wasn't anything else to take.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW The really hard part about the new sisters codex is filling small points gaps. When I dropped Celestine, I ended up taking the combis and HF rather than being able to do anything else. It isn't like SM where I can just throw in a Land Speeder or something. Everything is 90-150 points. Nothing is cheaper (except a preacher).
If I drop the HF to HB and drop the combis, it leaves me with 35 (I can scrounge 15 extra dropping a Henchman), but nothing to buy for 35-50 points once everyone has a ride. I guess I could get the dominion Immos extra armor, but that just feels like a waste.
Dozer blades for all 7 Rhinos/Immos? 5 HK Missiles?
pretre wrote:
If I drop the HF to HB and drop the combis, it leaves me with 35 (I can scrounge 15 extra dropping a Henchman), but nothing to buy for 35-50 points once everyone has a ride. I guess I could get the dominion Immos extra armor, but that just feels like a waste.
Dozer blades for all 7 Rhinos/Immos? 5 HK Missiles?
One thing to do is give extra armor to the Battle Conclave's Rhino. It helps its troops by not stopping on a simple stun roll. Its whole purpose is to deliver its fistful of pain to the target. If it has to take an extra turn to do so, thats not good. I used to always play with extra armor on all my vehicles but its hard to fit that in these lists, but on the BC's Rhino, it is very useful still.
pretre wrote:
If I drop the HF to HB and drop the combis, it leaves me with 35 (I can scrounge 15 extra dropping a Henchman), but nothing to buy for 35-50 points once everyone has a ride. I guess I could get the dominion Immos extra armor, but that just feels like a waste.
Dozer blades for all 7 Rhinos/Immos? 5 HK Missiles?
One thing to do is give extra armor to the Battle Conclave's Rhino. It helps its troops by not stopping on a simple stun roll. Its whole purpose is to deliver its fistful of pain to the target. If it has to take an extra turn to do so, thats not good. I used to always play with extra armor on all my vehicles but its hard to fit that in these lists, but on the BC's Rhino, it is very useful still.
Yeah, I could do EA for the BC and Dozers for the Immos for 50.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks something like this:
Uriah Jacobus with 8 Henchmen - Rhino (Extra Armor)
I have to say I'm not a believer in HFs anymore now I've lost free divine guidance; the MM is just such a useful control tool for me now, and the scouting doms mean you already have something more effective than a heavy flamer, in rerolled multiple template. that's 10 points each you're paying extra, essentially; grab another henchman with it, get some secondary items for your exorcist or transport; there's a lot that can be do with shifting up the combi item placement or dropping them to reach the next point bracket.
no more days of 12 inch move rhinos: fire heavy flamer + melta from box troop spam =D Whilst it depends on the missions, I've found that in the majority (not quite 3 in 4, but near) of the time my conclave do best jumping in and cleaning up when the enemy tries to engage on my units, rather than HAMMER AND ANVIL with the scouts, despite that seeming like the ideal choice.
Celestine, of course, is great for pinning units and blocking LoS with in combat units whilst your conclave comes in for hamme rand anvil, but that doesn't matter in this list ;3
EDIT:
Figured I'd just add in rather than post more spam ;D the s5 ap4 is what I used to -adore- in HF, especially the 12 inch move rhino use of it, but given we now have rerolls on wounds, even the seraphim s3 can beat out s5 against most targets; strangly I find that 4+ armour saves seem to be surprisingly rare compared to 5+ or 3/2+
Yeah, I'm probably going to go with the Celestine scoring list, just because it has variety in scoring and lets me mess with Cel. Less transports, but oh well.
I do like Heavy Flamers, just for their S5AP4. Chances are I won't choose until the week before and will keep messing with it until then.
Finished painting all the troops, now on to the 3 Immos and 3 Exos. Exos are last, because I still have my old ones if I don't finish.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wish I had one more Multimelta so my walking squad could use it, but I converted them all to normal melta back when MM sucked. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm. Going to hit our local trade and see if I can pick one up. That'd swap the HB for a MM and drop the MB on the Melta Dominion.
For 20 points, they really aren't; especially when dominion flamers can re-roll wounds, and so can seraphim flamers.
There's little reason to let your normal sisters get close enough to heavy flamer, because they'll just get charged afterwards with no Divine Guidance on normals
I'm rather aware of that pretre, I'm sure I've mentioned firing heavy flamers out of rhinos 4 times in this thread(5 = ); doesn't change the cost compared to other options, that I've outlined previously =D
n0t_u wrote:I'm expecting 2013-2014 at the earliest myself.
My sources tell me there are no plans to do them in the near or distant future, the only reason the WD dex was done is because there were some many contrasts between similar units in the GK and WH books, i.e. arco flagellants and DCA, assassins. I hope they are wrong, but I trust the people I hear from.
At least we could be hopeful that Jes is working on the plastics for when they eventually show up. I can see how it was needed to help solve the issues of most of the stuff showing up in other books, like Karamazov, though.
Spiku wrote:I'm rather aware of that pretre, I'm sure I've mentioned firing heavy flamers out of rhinos 4 times in this thread(5 = ); doesn't change the cost compared to other options, that I've outlined previously =D
I was talking about your 'get close enough cause they'll get charged' comment.
Spiku wrote:There's little reason to let your normal sisters get close enough to heavy flamer, because they'll just get charged afterwards with no Divine Guidance on normals
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you guys are quite the cheery lot. Played a couple home games against my friends, still doing fine with the new codex, btw. Keep forgetting to roll for faith at the start of the turn though.
Definately would rather the MM again in that situation; longer effective range, and in the situation they've come to you, you can just unload from cover the full complement of ladies. Also given the differences in how far you can move and fire those, by the time you meet up with your doms you've got less targets to work from, and once again their flamers will get re-rolls ;3 I'd rather not add another light armour target to be popped and charged for protection.
No value in boxtop heavy flamer that can't be found elsewhere, even if it's 4 retributors with heavy flamers because you just wanted to throw the points into cool minis ;3
Spiku wrote:Definately would rather the MM again in that situation; longer effective range, and in the situation they've come to you, you can just unload from cover the full complement of ladies. Also given the differences in how far you can move and fire those, by the time you meet up with your doms you've got less targets to work from, and once again their flamers will get re-rolls ;3 I'd rather not add another light armour target to be popped and charged for protection.
No value in boxtop heavy flamer that can't be found elsewhere, even if it's 4 retributors with heavy flamers because you just wanted to throw the points into cool minis ;3
2/3 of the missions require you to go to the enemy objective. I suppose you can rely on contesting all of the opponent objectives and holding your own, but that's unlikely. Rolling up in a rhino and cleaning off an objective isn't a bad thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and right now I'm thinking of doing:
Sister 1 - MM/Melta
Sister 2 - MM/Melta
Sister 3 - Melta/Melta/Rhino
Just to save points. We'll see though. I'll keep tinkering until day of.
Remember back when them empty dedicated transports would sit in your objective range; gosh darn MM's have something to say about that ;D
you've got re-roll flamers, DCA bomb, and sometimes Celestine, I can't say there hasn't been occasions I could have done with the HF, but I assure you they are hugely outweighted by another MM in this environment~
Death Cult Assassins are mandatory now. You put then with Uriah Jacobus, and a few crusaders for 3++ saves (I take 3 crusaders, and I notice a lot of other people do these days too), throw them in a transport, and use as counter charge, or to nuke annoying units, or to scare off charges.
You will always take Jacobus, DCAs and crusaders, in every game. Even if it is your only HQ choice
pretre wrote:I agree with this sentiment. DCA = Awesome.DCA + Uriah = Super Awesome.
High I Power Weapon saturation in a list that has no CC presence is not to be overlooked.
So once again if I need to fill a critical thing for the Sisters army I must rely on a non-Sisters unit whose models are also expensive. I won't deny its awesome, but Sisters units do not have someone that does this on their own. This unit is one of the most killy units I have seen though.
pretre wrote:I agree with this sentiment. DCA = Awesome.DCA + Uriah = Super Awesome.
High I Power Weapon saturation in a list that has no CC presence is not to be overlooked.
So once again if I need to fill a critical thing for the Sisters army I must rely on a non-Sisters unit whose models are also expensive. I won't deny its awesome, but Sisters units do not have someone that does this on their own. This unit is one of the most killy units I have seen though.
OMG. Stop peeing in my GD cheerios. Can't you be happy about anything?
Let me fill you in on history, because it has always been like that.
- 2nd Edition Sisters: Needed Ecclesiarchy Chars / Frateris.
- 3rd Edition Sisters: Needed Redemptionists / Ecclesiarchy Chars
- 3.5 / 4th / early 5th Sisters: Needed Inq Chars / Guard / ISTs
- 5th Edition Sisters: Need Ecclesiarchy Chars / Battle Conclaves
We just returned to our roots from our short stay with IG and the Inquisition. If you're that unhappy about them, get some Repentia, remove their Eviscerators and give them fancy power weapons. Bam, Counts-as DCA that are really Repentia. It even fits because they have Invuls and FNP, just like Repentia but focus on perfection of the body/form to find repentence. That was super hard.
4th ediditon did not -need- anything outside of sisters. I had far more success without any inquisitorial units. The only time I ever used them would be sometimes for fun including a DH inquisitor with psycannon + gunners because I like my female gamesday commissar model.
4th edition allowed sisters to shine as sisters, 5th nearly followed that, but then made us entirelly reliant on Jacobus.
There is definately no case that we "needed" inquisitorial units in 4th. I'd also say that as far as repentia conversions go, they're not actually that good I found =< you can't give them two weapons ;D But Reaper Battle Nuns or Menoth Daughters of the Flame sort of nearly but don't, do, for sisterly stuff. I already converted Burtha from Mordheim for my Jacobus!
Spiku wrote:4th ediditon did not -need- anything outside of sisters. I had far more success without any inquisitorial units, apart from sometimes for fun including a DH inquisitor with psycannon + gunners
Technically you never -needed- anything other than sisters in any of the lists. You still don't. That being said, they were very useful.
4th edition allowed sisters to shine as sisters, 5th nearly followed that, but then made us entirelly reliant on Jacobus.
/shrug. I found that inducted units were very useful in all variants of WH sisters, but again 'need' is relative. Just as Jacobus is not truly 'need'ed, you can go without him and do full Melta / Immo spam and be pretty successful with the new 'book'.
There is definately no case that we "needed" inquisitorial units in 4th.
In your opinion. Balanced lists that valued long range shooting still liked having guard. Immo spam still liked having ISTs, etc. Inq for Psy Hood was still nice.
I'd also say that as far as repentia conversions go, they're not actually that good I found =< you can't give them two weapons ;D But Reaper Battle Nuns or Menoth Daughters of the Flame sort of nearly but don't, do.
I swear you just look for ways to contradict me. I was being flip, btw.
2nd ed was funny as hell mind you ;3
Indeed, in more ways than just sisters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to prove the point, this would be pretty amusing:
Retributors (5) with 4 Heavy Bolters - TL/MM Immo
Retributors (5) with 4 Heavy Bolters - TL/MM Immo
Retributors (5) with 4 Heavy Bolters - TL/MM Immo
8 TL-MM immos, 3 Rending HB units, 2 Scoring Melta Rhinos and a ton of Flamers. You could swap the Flamerx2/Combi for Meltax2 if you were so inclined. Leaves 30 points for fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and as a thought experiment, since Spiku got me thinking. This would be hilarious at 'Ard Boyz:
Confessor Kyrinov with 8 Henchmen - Rhino
Uriah Jacobus with 9 Henchmen - Rhino
Sorry, am still at work so I don't get much time on responses: please don't do stacking quotes, on such thin matters O_o
Anyway: There is no case at all that we needed inquisitorial units, Inquisitors brought nothing to us that was not out matched by our core units and faith in 4th edition. Only the inquisitorial stormtroopers were ever taken, and that was to limit points spent in troops; which meant you were severly underutilizing the Heavy Flamer + Melta roofhatch 12 inch rhino move. The witch hunter units were all under achievers. Using allies is a different case mind you, but inquisitorial? No point; get more faith, get more effective. The only inquisitorial unit that brings something better is the Deamon Hunter one.
And I wasn't contradicting you on the repentia, just telling you what I tried ;3
Edit: substantive responses to subsequent posts/previous post edits later, but just as a general thing; taking death cultists in 4th edition, and as in, AS MANY AS POSSIBLE, was quite funny, because they were individual units that could use up an entire unit's shooting. I like to try everything out before I form opinions, and I am certainly guided by the experience of others even after using my own evidence.
Pure Sisters > WH
Edit: On the sistah list, I can never agree with canoness ;3 just too many points for too little, but it does net you +1 scoring unit. I almost expected to see one of the rets packing heavy flamers ;D
On the second list; That's delicious. If you're on the cusp of points, I'd sacrifice a henchmen in Ky's group, given he is balls (probably a crusader, he gets less attacks out of it really) to get MM's on the other troop units; the double range means they harass nicely.
While we are talking about the new Sisters rules, can anybody think of a use for Ecclesiarchal Preachers (not Confessors). I've been trying to make positive use of most of the units in the codex despite my generally negative opinion of it in general. For the life of me I can't figure a good way to make use of their potential. I wish they were a unit upgrade like before. Why are these guys 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest, who gets +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1T, and +2 Leadership and come with power armor and give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge in a 6” bubble for the difference?
I guess I could insert one in a horde of 20 battle sisters and give it an extra gun for some more points or maybe an extra power sword or melta-bomb, but being a fragile IC I'm not sure what its goign to add for the points. I can accomplish more in CC for less with a 2nd Battle Conclave I think. Though I suppose having a large unit of 21 bolters could be effective. Anybody else have any other ideas?
Ecclesiarchal preachers can be used to make Repentia hilarious.
In the 2500 list, I was thinking of using one with the second Battle Conclave and using Kyrinov as a home base force multiplier. (Why yes, all of my battle sisters are fearless and sitting on my objective.)
pretre wrote:Ecclesiarchal preachers can be used to make Repentia hilarious.
In the 2500 list, I was thinking of using one with the second Battle Conclave and using Kyrinov as a home base force multiplier. (Why yes, all of my battle sisters are fearless and sitting on my objective.)
Won't having the Preacher affect their ability to be Fleet? Or should I not care since I can hopefully get them into a Rhino?
I don't play Sisters but the two people in my area who did are no longer using theirs. Guess this was one army that needed Matt Ward to write for them. :/
Mat does write good rules for 40K in my opinion. Space Marines, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights are all solid codices. Maybe I am alone in that, but I've been pleased with their performance when I run them.
andrewm9 wrote:Why are these guys 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest, who gets +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1T, and +2 Leadership and come with power armor and give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge in a 6” bubble for the difference?
Because direct points comparisons between units in different armies is not how this game is built.
andrewm9 wrote:Why are these guys 5 points cheaper than a Sanguinary Priest, who gets +2 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1T, and +2 Leadership and come with power armor and give Feel No Pain and Furious Charge in a 6” bubble for the difference?
Consistency. See: Canoness vs Marine Captain.
Nah, DarknessEternal has a point. But still ... ¬_¬
I somewhat disagree, because those 3 codicies wrote there have a noticeable power creep, and when Daemons came out for fantasy it actually killed my local club's fantasy scene, which was a shame.
Obviously as a Sister player I had a particular distaste for the fluff in GKs ;3
No need to cause a scene petre; you'll note it was your non-contributory comment regarding pithy one-liners that started the concentration on the subject of Ward.
I feel it is important though, for the chap who did initially bring up Ward, whether that be positive or negative, to know that Matt Ward did in fact co-write the codex. Which is entirely on subject, because we're talking about our opinion on the new rules~
Spiku wrote:No need to cause a scene petre; you'll note it was your non-contributory comment regarding pithy one-liners that started the concentration on the subject of Ward.
I feel it is important though, for the chap who did initially bring up Ward, whether that be positive or negative, to know that Matt Ward did in fact co-write the codex. Which is entirely on subject, because we're talking about our opinion on the new rules~
Unless he has a serious hate for Sisters, I fail to see his mark on this codex whatsoever. I know he is credited, but I wonder what the heck he wrote.
DarknessEternal wrote:Because direct points comparisons between units in different armies is not how this game is built.
TRUTH!
Seriously, stop comparing units between codexes in a vaccuum.
How can you call it a vacuum? The game is designed with points for a reason. The rulebook even tells us that things are point costed for this very reason. If its based on relative value, Sanguinary Priests are certainly more valuable to Blood Angels than a Preacher is to Sisters so shouldn't he cost more by that logic.
Points: Warhammer 40,000 uses a system of points values that allow players to fight evenly matched battles. Each model is given a points costs that reflects its value in the game. For example, a single Ork warrior costs 6 points, while a mighty Space Marine Land Raider tank costs 250 points.
The rulebook tells you that points costs reflect value in the game, not that that value is the same between armies. It is silent on that point. Are some things cheaper/more expensive in this codex than others? Yes. Is there probably a reason for that? Yes.
For example, why do Space Marines pay 5 pts for a BS4 Tactical Meltagun and Guard pay 10 for a Veteran MG? How about orders, additional costs of the unit, etc?
You can't just say 'OMG SM pay less for Meltaguns!!!!' you have to look at the whole picture.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:
pretre wrote:@andrewm9: I'm guessing the fluff pieces.
So we have to thank him for making Praxedes look less awesome?
snip skipping htis part
Praxedes still takes down a HT single-handedly and was martyred. She just doesn't 'press the advantage'. It looked like a space issue to me (2 para in 2nd edition SoB, 1 Para in WD). I would expect less fluff in a smaller book.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sanctuary was also reduced to a single sentence for much the same reasons, I imagine.
Points: Warhammer 40,000 uses a system of points values that allow players to fight evenly matched battles. Each model is given a points costs that reflects its value in the game. For example, a single Ork warrior costs 6 points, while a mighty Space Marine Land Raider tank costs 250 points.
The rulebook tells you that points costs reflect value in the game, not that that value is the same between armies. It is silent on that point. Are some things cheaper/more expensive in this codex than others? Yes. Is there probably a reason for that? Yes.
So the Preacher is almost as valuable in game as a Sanguinary Priest? Really? Thats what I am asking. becuase it assuredly is not. By that logic the SP should cost more as he is more value in game or the preacher should cost less as he is of little real value to the army.
pretre wrote:Praxedes still takes down a HT single-handedly and was martyred. She just doesn't 'press the advantage'.
That's just it. The idea of Praxedes still being "out there" and leading her own personal crusade inside some Hive Fleet was just awesome. Of course I wouldn't have expected her to survive a single week, but simply seeing her go there led to a myth that used to inspire many Sisters and other faithful. This is the stuff of legends. Huge change between MIA and KIA here.
Now she's KIA. Why? Aren't we allowed to have a hero that smacks down a Tyrant and survives? Aren't we allowed to have cool legends? Is this something the Marines have a monopoly on or what?
I just don't get it. I want the author to explain this to me. "That's too cool for them" is the only reasoning that could have led to this change, and I dislike the idea of people with this attitude messing up our fluff. FFS, it's as if the author was like "hmmm there's still not enough martyrs in here" when looking at the SoB. For real?
andrewm9 wrote:So the Preacher is almost as valuable in game as a Sanguinary Priest? Really? Thats what I am asking. becuase it assuredly is not. By that logic the SP should cost more as he is more value in game or the preacher should cost less as he is of little real value to the army.
The points cost is predicated on the army that it is in. Read my example re: Meltaguns between guard and IG. Preacher is of value to an army with high numbers of PW attacks that want rerolls (EBC, Repentia) and units that want to add a PF Eviscerator without being Seraphim (Battle Sisters, Celestians, Dominions). He also has a built in invuln for bouncing AP wounds, if you are so inclined.
I'm not saying his costing is right, wrong or indifferent, but I'm saying that he fills a roll in the SoB army that the designers determined costs that many points. SP fill a different roll for their army that the designers decided costs X points. A SP in a SOB army would probably be less points, because FC is less cool if it only brings you to S4/I4, although a SP with DCA would be nice, so it might be higher, who knows. If BA didn't have the ability to put Powerfists into squads normally, you can bet their 'add a guy with powerfist + invulnerable save and preferred enemy' would be pretty spendy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:
pretre wrote:Praxedes still takes down a HT single-handedly and was martyred. She just doesn't 'press the advantage'.
That's just it. The idea of Praxedes still being "out there" and leading her own personal crusade inside some Hive Fleet was just awesome. Of course I wouldn't have expected her to survive a single week, but simply seeing her go there led to a myth that used to inspire many Sisters and other faithful. This is the stuff of legends. Huge change between MIA and KIA here.
I missed the fighting on sentence. I see where you are coming from.
I just don't get it. I want the author to explain this to me. "That's too cool for them" is the only reasoning that could have led to this change, and I dislike the idea of people with this attitude messing up our fluff. FFS, it's as if the author was like "hmmm there's still not enough martyrs in here" when looking at the SoB. For real?
I don't see this at all, but whatever. I think SoB players played with the Martyrdom rules too long because they have a tendency to do it to themselves.
Early days yet for me i've only got two games in so far both against GK. Won one lost one. Tabled in four turns for the win despite losing 15 sisters in turn2. Lost a kill point game by miles despite leaving only a Rhino, a librarian and one psycannon marine and having 3 untouched squads on the board but hey ho its all learning at this stage. I think some of the character has been lost but i think the army is a bit more rounded in that you may actually take certain units this time round.
Liking outflanking dominions I've tried the immo and rhino mounted versions (all melta) and they both have their plus points so i can see me using them a lot. Given the firepower they have they are quite good at distracting heavy hitters from your sisters squads.
Exorcists are still the default heavy choice for me though I'll be trying retributors with mm soon, I'm not sure i want to sacrifice the ability to hit targets across the board on the first turn.
Not tried repentia yet i'm not sure how to fit them over a battle conclave which most people seem to take by default I've been trying 4 crusader 4 dca, jacobus (praise be to him) and a canoness in a rhino which works pretty well. I can't seem to make the canoness fit well otherwise though I'll try her with celestians and see what happens. Personally i like to have a non special character to act as general but that's just me I'm a bit set in my ways.
So still got plenty of games to play to get a better picture especially when I play my more experienced mates but so far i'm in the not perfect but have potential camp.
Canoness is kind of wasted with a battle conclave. They're already I6 and have Preferred Enemy on the charge. I would just let her go and use Celestine or another Battle Conclave.
Glad to hear that things are going well for you though.
pretre wrote:Canoness is kind of wasted with a battle conclave. They're already I6 and have Preferred Enemy on the charge. I would just let her go and use Celestine or another Battle Conclave.
Glad to hear that things are going well for you though.
Yeah i agree she's not perfect in there but i like to have her in there to take some wounds on her 3+ or 4++ to keep the DCAs alive and put in a plasma pistol shot before charging. Also a melta bomb can be useful on occasion. Stubborn is useful with her leadership if you get a kicking in a round of combat, psykotrope grenades...shudder. But I take your point.
For what you're talking about, I'd save the points and throw in another DCA. Sure, you lose the PP/MB, but you have a 5++/FNP and plenty of 3++ in the unit already.
pretre wrote:For what you're talking about, I'd save the points and throw in another DCA. Sure, you lose the PP/MB, but you have a 5++/FNP and plenty of 3++ in the unit already.
I miss my canoness, but not that much.
Thanks for the advice I'll try that next time out.
pretre wrote:Canoness is kind of wasted with a battle conclave. They're already I6 and have Preferred Enemy on the charge. I would just let her go and use Celestine or another Battle Conclave.
Glad to hear that things are going well for you though.
I'm pretty sure her Act of Faith won't benefit the Battle Conclave anyway since they lack the Act of Faith special rule. It will still work on her and any Confessor, or special character though. If they could benefit that would be awesome. It does my heatr good to see people at least doping some good with the codex and enjoying it. I'm not really enjoying it yet. Maybe I just need a good bloody game of Apoc under my belt with my Sisters. I live to play Apoc games and I've been tweaking some stuff for my Sisters for just such a purpose.
Speaking of which has anyone seen if there are further Sisters articles int his month's WD yet? Last month we got 3 Battle Missions and before the Codex we got some Cities of Death love. We just need a little Planetstrike and Apoc to round it out.
pretre wrote:Canoness is kind of wasted with a battle conclave. They're already I6 and have Preferred Enemy on the charge. I would just let her go and use Celestine or another Battle Conclave.
Glad to hear that things are going well for you though.
I'm pretty sure her Act of Faith won't benefit the Battle Conclave anyway since they lack the Act of Faith special rule. It will still work on her and any Confessor, or special character though. If they could benefit that would be awesome. It does my heatr good to see people at least doping some good with the codex and enjoying it. I'm not really enjoying it yet. Maybe I just need a good bloody game of Apoc under my belt with my Sisters. I live to play Apoc games and I've been tweaking some stuff for my Sisters for just such a purpose.
I played under the assumption they don't as they don't have the acts of faith special rule unlike jacobus and kyrinov.
She isn't a very good unit, at all. Celestine will give you more bang for your buck and far more use, and everyone else lets you take a conclave, which is good.
Yep, Canoness is a sad panda compared to her awesomeness in previous lists. The only real question is Uriah Bomb and Celestine or Uriah Bomb and Extra EBC with Kyrinov, imo.
Ugh... In a different thread, I went through a short pro/con list for the new dex compared to the old one.
Had a ton of things in the con pile apart from points costs, and in the pro pile, I had one thing apart from certain other points costs: the Battle Conclave. The fact that it's pretty much mandatory for an effective army really turns me off of it, and not just because it's not a proper Sisters unit. I don't like feeling like I HAVE to take a particular unit if I want to stand a chance at winning.
Which reminds me, I played a game without a Battle Conclave, and got slaughtered pretty badly. By the end, I was down to a Rhino, some Retributors, and a Battle Sisters Squad camping out on an objective. Oh, and a lone Veteran Superior. My opponent had three combat squads made from Tactical Squads, her Chapter Master, a Sternguard squad, and an Assault Squad, some of which had taken moderate to heavy casualties.
I'm sure the new dex is quite playable, but I think I'll be going back to the Witch Hunters Codex, since I only ever play with one person, who's already said it's alright if I want to use the old dex. I've found uses for most of my Battle Conclave minis.
I am no longer feeling positive about receiving attention. :: sighs and curls up and snuggles my Sister of Battle plush toy and pets it :: It'll be okay little plush toy, we'll get another proper Codex some day years from now, then everyone will be jealous of our well-balanced, fluffy rules that gleam the light of the Emperor into their eyes- :: breaks down, sobbing and snuggling my plush toy tightly ::
:: sigh again :: On the other hand, I only tend to get all down about my Sisters of Battle when I come to Dakka and read/remember all the complaints... Maybe I should stop coming here...
Edit: And as for the Sisters of Battle getting martyred all the time, I... err... I had a Veteran Superior character in my custom fluff end up getting killed by an Ork Warboss' death spasm after she drove her sword through his head. She didn't STAY dead, though, thanks to some advanced medical intervention - which, I should add, has been in my custom fluff longer than the character has. Ahh, maybe I should go rewrite it, cause that, "Sisters players are so used to the idea of martyrdom they do it to themselves," or whatever comment, it really hit home there.
Edit the third: Am I hallucinating, or is a ton of Sisters of Battle stuff no longer available on GW's site? Edit the fourth: Not just Sisters of Battle stuff. A ton of other stuff is "No longer available," as well.
There are quite a few models unavailable at this time it looks like. A bunch of stuff is shipping in 1 to 2 weeks or 3 to 4 weeks.
Unavailable models are:
Canoness
All Sister Superiors on foot
Repentia
Mistress
Heavy Flamer
Multi-melta
both stormbolter models
both melta gun models
both flamer models
Crusaders
Arco-flagellants
Death Cultists
Hospitaller
Kyrinov
Plasma Pistol/Power Sword Seraphim Superior
Eviscerator/Plasma Seraphim Superior
Hand Flamer Seraphim
Penitent Engines
Exorcists
Wow. That's quite alot, but it won't be the first time they have been 'unavailable'. We went through a spell of that a year ago or so. Thats when Sisters rumors began flying hot and heavy only for the lien to be repckaaged into blisters only. Perhaps they realize the folly of selling an army like that and are repackaging again into sets. of course thre is the off-chance they are goign to recast it all in Finecast and maek them more expensive.
On another note, it appears that this is not restricted to the just the Sisters, as lots of other items are not available like SM tactical sqauds, Rhinos, Ork Boyz, and Cadian Shock Troops.
This pack contains one Battle Sister Canoness - a finely detailed metal miniature that comes in eight components (including a choice of weapons and a randomly selected backpack), and is supplied with a 25mm round base. This miniature is supplied unpainted and requires assembly - we recommend using Citadel Super Glue and Citadel Paints.
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours. Part Code: MPN 99060108056
Following up on my previous statements, my sisters went 2/1/1 in a 4 round tournament.
Tabled a GK Terminator list.
Lost against a GK wacky list on the roll for turn 6. If it had continued to 6, I would have won.
Won against a shooty MC nid list.
Drew against a green tide list.
Fought three lists that were perfect matches (low model count that are susceptible to my volleys of S8AP1) for me and one that was the worst match (green tide).
So, considering this was my first tournament with the new codex, I would say they are pretty good. I reject the 'new sisters suck' comments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More specifically, I believe sisters are tuned to kill Meq, teq vehicles and MCs. They will rock against anything with a lot of those. I imagine they will have more trouble against some guard and some DE. Also, they need to avoid being too specialized or will lose to hordes.
Vallejo's Squid Pink is a good replacement in my opinion.
Haven't used it for a bit, but it comes out like this. Though there is a slight amount of white added to it for highlights which aren't even noticeable in the pictures anyway.
I had a Sisters of Battle army back in 3rd edition, whom I took to many a tournament and had many many hours of great gaming with. When I got back into the hobby last year, I was seduced by the new IG codex (I also played IG back in 3rd) and have been kicking myself for missing-out on the Codex: Witchhunter days.
This new "codex" sounds like rather a mixed bag. I'm definitely not happy about the exclusion of Inquisitorial Storm troopers although the battle conclaves sound right up my alley.
My question is this: how long do you think this WD "codex" will be all the sisters have? I've been unable to find ANY rumours regarding a real codex, and that worries me.
NWansbutter wrote:My question is this: how long do you think this WD "codex" will be all the sisters have? I've been unable to find ANY rumours regarding a real codex, and that worries me.
2013 at the earliest, is my guess. More likely longer than that.
On the upside, I would probably be kicking myself even more if I had built a witchhunters army and was now unable to use it (I had envisioned a very inquisition-heavy army). Guess I'll just stick with my IG for a few years and do some Fantasy if I feel the need to build a new army.
I think that if you like SoB, you should get into them. Even if they go into plastics, your models will still be usable.
I have been playing SOB since start of 3rd (Go Go Codex: Main Rulebook) and am up to about 3000 points or so in current models. I've had to change wargear and get a few models over the years, but my base sisters and vehicles are the same that they have ever been.
That being said, try to buy used. Buying new is ridiculously expensive.
pretre wrote:I think that if you like SoB, you should get into them. Even if they go into plastics, your models will still be usable.
I have been playing SOB since start of 3rd (Go Go Codex: Main Rulebook) and am up to about 3000 points or so in current models. I've had to change wargear and get a few models over the years, but my base sisters and vehicles are the same that they have ever been.
That being said, try to buy used. Buying new is ridiculously expensive.
So true as I illustrated in another thread. I built a 2000 pointlist that costs 1060.25 at current US prices. I even tried to go cheap where I could (like on the 12.25 Seraphim not the 14.00 one) except on Rhinos, though I would only have saved 14 dollars if just bought Rhinos and not Immolators. Finding cheaper Sisters has become harder, but not impossible. I bought my collection piecemeal on Ebay for the most part unless I needed something specific. At this point I can place over 200 Sisters models on the table without tanks.
andrewm9 wrote:At this point I can place over 200 Sisters models on the table without tanks.
Crazy! All painted?
In similar news, I'm selling a bunch of sisters I picked up a while back, if anyone is interested.
About 75-80%. I've got some infantry and jump infantry that came in lots with some paint on them that are in need of stripping, but I haven't been motivated to do so yet. I've got a couple of Exorcists that haven't been painted as well. I've got 2 Repressors, 8 ImMolator/Rhinos, and 5 Exorcists. Obviously I have gathered this insane amount of metal for Apoclypse where they are joined by Imperial Guard infantry and my 1300 dollar armored brigade. Again more Ebay. IG tanks in cheaper blocks are far more readily available.
andrewm9 wrote:At this point I can place over 200 Sisters models on the table without tanks.
Crazy! All painted?
In similar news, I'm selling a bunch of sisters I picked up a while back, if anyone is interested.
About 75-80%. I've got some infantry and jump infantry that came in lots with some paint on them that are in need of stripping, but I haven't been motivated to do so yet. I've got a couple of Exorcists that haven't been painted as well. I've got 2 Repressors, 8 ImMolator/Rhinos, and 5 Exorcists. Obviously I have gathered this insane amount of metal for Apoclypse where they are joined by Imperial Guard infantry and my 1300 dollar armored brigade. Again more Ebay. IG tanks in cheaper blocks are far more readily available.
Hmm. I think I have.
4 Sisters Squads with Rhinos, 2 Battle Conclaves with Uriah and Kyrinov with Rhinos (old type), 3 Immos (New) with Dominions (5), 1 Immo (Old) with Celestians, 3 Exorcists, 20 Seraphim, 10 Repentia, 5 HB Rets, 5 HF Rets, Celestine and my old Exorcist Scratchbuild turrets to turn Rhinos into Exos. Enough so I can field 2500 of whatever I want.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:By that logic, then every rules edition should come with a full generation of codexes...
I personally believe this is true, and I am surprised that people talk about it like it would be a ridiculous assumption. I don't much care about how long it takes new editions to come out, in fact I want that to be slower. Bottom line is that 5th edition is almost up, and SoB finally got their 3rd ed codex replaced. And it's replacement is WD?
As far as my opinion of the new rules go, open the spoiler if you want to hear a rant.
Spoiler:
GW for all eternity in the foulest nether regions of all unholy !!!!! My army was only about half sisters. I had Inducted guard for a leman russ and objective sitting. I had an Inquisitor Lord with a heavily modded and customized retinue, a jump pack Cannoness, even my lucky vindicare assassin. I liked the sisters part, but I loved how my list had a real haphazardness both in look and in play. The Cannoness was even a SoB unit and she's still not legal. The whole list was wild and no one knew how to deal with it, I won many games just because my opponents had no idea how to deal with it.
As far as the new list without considering what I lost (a thing I am trying really hard to do, because all I want to do is strangle a GW staff member right now): It's okay but there is almost variety among remotely competitive builds, and even casually there are few options if you want to at least avoid getting tabled in 3 turns. There is no compelling reason to run any unit who's name is not a proper noun. Uriah Jacobs + BC is Auto include. That leaves you with 1 hq spot that you have a choice in. Krynov is the same price as a base confessor + power weapon, which he already has so everything after the power weapon is free, and gives you another BC. Celestine is a big flying nigh immortal tarpit. No elites are worth anything. Troops have no choice, except rhino or don't affect the game (and melta vs. flamer). Fast attack is 2 Dominions Auto, maybe a seraphim if you can stand not running three dominions. Heavy support is 2-3 exorcists, and maybe retributors if you want rending HB action.
Repentia are better than before true. Still not good. Still avoid.
BC for UJ are almost universally 6-7 DCA + 2-3 Crusader, arco-flagellents are useless (like they were in C:WH).
Even under Krynov A-F still aren't great.
Penitent engines are better on paper, but nothing has been done about the glaring flaw that keeps them from getting used: cardboard armor + open top.
Priests have never been usefull since I started playing, around the tail end of 3rd edition, beginning of 4th. I don't think they were before that point but I don't have first hand experience.
Celstians are fluffed as excellent pistoleers and melee combatants, they can't melee against anything but tau, and that's not saying anything.
The whole army still has the problem that the SoB units did under C:WH, they are required to get very close to the enemy for their weapons to work, but can't assault for crap.
The only long range shooting you get is the unreliable Exorcist and the even more unreliable HB Retributors using their faith power for rending.
No non-flamer templates in the whole thing.
Only 1 unit that was not it C:WH, and it's only positive note is that the 2 special characters that are spawned from them aren't many more points.
No new miniatures, not even one, not even a bloody finecast, to support them, in fact they didn't even ramp up production of existing models, leading to back order.
No plastic, there is no way that any new player can afford to get into this army without buying some off Ebay, which doesn't make GW a dime, which I am fine with (the GW not making money due to incompetence, I really would like to see more player pick up sisters, but I cannot blame them for avoiding it).
Given I don't want to take out a mortgage to get DCA enough for my SoB army, I have decided that I am just going to mod a box of DE wyches. Seems about right.
It is certainly doable to update the CODEX for every army every edition. It is unlikely that GW will do this, however, as their design/sale philosophy is to push minis with codex.
That being said it is also feasible for them to update FAQs in the manner that they did with BT/DA in every edition. This could fix an entire edition with one fell swoop as soon as it hits the shelves. Considering what happened when the latest fantasy launched, this is very possible.
And as much as I am sorry that you lost the usability of your army, /shrug. It has happened before and it will happen again. In fact, anyone who has played this game for some time has many, many models that either don't work the same as they did or are not even in the army anymore*. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
How many years did you get out of them before you had to replace them? Now you can either sell the component parts, having gotten some value and enjoyment from them, or make 2 new armies... I know a few folks who use Primaris and IG as their Inquisitorial Force.
Also, can we be done with the whole 'X IS THE ONLY GOOD CHOICE AND YOU ARE GIMPING YOURSELF IF YOU DON'T TAKE IT'. Seriously. It is overblown. Just because the internets say that there is only one good build doesn't mean it is true. The internets said that the book sucked and that is starting to be proven wrong. Expand your mind a bit.
* My redemptionists are now guard. I had 3-4 big squads of them in 3rd edition. I'm left with 10-12 chainsaw priests that have no use in any of my armies.
My Leman Russ from when SW could have them is now a predator.
I have stacks of powerfists from my 3rd ed Blood Claws.
etc, so on.
Armless Failure wrote: The whole list was wild and no one knew how to deal with it, I won many games just because my opponents had no idea how to deal with it.
I really liked the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters lists specifically for this reason. Unfortunately they were not popular because of the same exact reasons. Many people couldn't figure out how to best use them. I just loved the variety you had available. With either codex I could create an Inquisitor with is own private army (Inducted IG and inquisitorial stormtroopers), could have them be an inquisitor supporting an IG or space marine army. Be a sisters of battle army or grey knights army completely. Could be either of them in support of guard or marines and so on and so on. That variety gave me a reason to add a marine and an IG force to my collection the first time. Now you play grey knights, or SoB or marines or Guard. You can't combine them in various ways anymore. No where near as fun or interesting to me. My favorite incarnation was a corrupt inquisitor who was supported by stormtroopers and daemonhosts, who was working to corrupt a space marine chapter to his method of thinking. He was working on the scouts first as the weakest link, and as he corrupted them and they were raised to full rank as a marine his corruption would spread into the rest of the legion. So I fought many battles with stormtroopers and marine scouts supported by the inqusitor, his retinue and daemon hosts. Was a lot of fun to play and model the army. It wasn't a rock solid monster army, but it was unique and had a lot of character to it. The daemonhosts could be a big surprise when they deep struck into the middle of an enemy unit. Used to annoy my friends that I always seemed to roll to regenerate all of the wounds on a 'host right as it was down to its last wound so they would invariably have to "kill" each 'host more than once to finally get it to stay down.
SoB are unpopular because they are crazy expensive to build with all metal models and have few options in their lists. They get no plastic models with cool options because they are unpopular. So they stay unpopular due to cost and continue to not get plastic models...etc, etc....
I think the primary reason that they only got a WD codex at this point is because they have no new minis in the pipeline at this time. You can't change the options because anything they add isn't available at all. I hope that some time they will create a new SoB codex that is comprehensive, has plenty of options and full plastics support to make it a viable option as an army for someone who isn't made of money. I far prefer to see "different" armies available for play instead of yet another flavor of marines...
Skriker wrote:SoB are unpopular because they are crazy expensive to build with all metal models and have few options in their lists. They get no plastic models with cool options because they are unpopular. So they stay unpopular due to cost and continue to not get plastic models...etc, etc....
I think the primary reason that they only got a WD codex at this point is because they have no new minis in the pipeline at this time. You can't change the options because anything they add isn't available at all. I hope that some time they will create a new SoB codex that is comprehensive, has plenty of options and full plastics support to make it a viable option as an army for someone who isn't made of money. I far prefer to see "different" armies available for play instead of yet another flavor of marines...
That's kind of speculation. We don't know why SoB don't get new minis, but we do know that Jes was/is working on plsatics.
Armless Failure wrote: The whole list was wild and no one knew how to deal with it, I won many games just because my opponents had no idea how to deal with it.
I really liked the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters lists specifically for this reason. Unfortunately they were not popular because of the same exact reasons. Many people couldn't figure out how to best use them. I just loved the variety you had available. With either codex I could create an Inquisitor with is own private army (Inducted IG and inquisitorial stormtroopers), could have them be an inquisitor supporting an IG or space marine army. Be a sisters of battle army or grey knights army completely. Could be either of them in support of guard or marines and so on and so on. That variety gave me a reason to add a marine and an IG force to my collection the first time. Now you play grey knights, or SoB or marines or Guard. You can't combine them in various ways anymore. No where near as fun or interesting to me. My favorite incarnation was a corrupt inquisitor who was supported by stormtroopers and daemonhosts, who was working to corrupt a space marine chapter to his method of thinking. He was working on the scouts first as the weakest link, and as he corrupted them and they were raised to full rank as a marine his corruption would spread into the rest of the legion. So I fought many battles with stormtroopers and marine scouts supported by the inqusitor, his retinue and daemon hosts. Was a lot of fun to play and model the army. It wasn't a rock solid monster army, but it was unique and had a lot of character to it. The daemonhosts could be a big surprise when they deep struck into the middle of an enemy unit. Used to annoy my friends that I always seemed to roll to regenerate all of the wounds on a 'host right as it was down to its last wound so they would invariably have to "kill" each 'host more than once to finally get it to stay down.
Yes, this is what I loved as well. Although I did at one time have a pure Sisters list, I liked this better although I got out of the hobby right after C:WH came out although I did make good use of CH in the manner you describe. I missed out on the best years, I think, but what can you do?
I really like the SoB play style, but not so much the models. A little too S&M for my tastes. I was toying with the idea of a sister-less WH army (Inquisitor, priest, arco-flagellants, storm troopers, penitent engines, backed-up by some IG). Thank goodness I didn't do that. I'm getting by with my "counts-as Straken" inquisitor, and "Inquisitorial" storm troopers in an IG list these days. I am certain it's wishful thinking that we'll ever get something like the old C:WH days back but I do hope they give a bit more variety than what is in the White Dwarf codex now.
I agree with your points on models being outdated/replaced etc as the editions advance it happens so its just something you've got to live with, though i'm still sore that i've got a lovely land raider prometheus with spaced armour and inq doors that cost a ruddy fortune to buy that i can't use anymore but hey ho. But I got the last WH codex intending to use IG as allies and then expand them later into a full army. I collected them bit by bit over time and they developed nicely into another army so wasn't stung when they were removed in the new list.
Also regarding DCAs I had an Arbites themed INQ faction in my army, i use the cyber mastiffs as DCAs and enforcers with storm shields and power mauls as crusaders for the battle conclave, i just need 4 more mastiffs from somewhere to make my standard 3 crusader 7 dca unit.
Umm. LR Prometheus was never usable in 40k, only apoc or 40k with IA. If you're in apoc or 40k with IA, there's no reason you can't mix it in with Sisters and Guard.
I really like the Arbites idea for Battle Conclave!
pretre wrote:Umm. LR Prometheus was never usable in 40k, only apoc or 40k with IA. If you're in apoc or 40k with IA, there's no reason you can't mix it in with Sisters and Guard.
I really like the Arbites idea for Battle Conclave!
Yeah i used the IA rules and had my INQ run around in that, my friends never had a problem with the me using an IA tank in our 40k games I used IG salamander/medusa/vanquisher as well before they were updated. Thing is I don't play many if any apoc games these days so I can't really fit the inquisitor in with my sisters. I'll probably let my mate use it with his new GKs till I figure out what to do with it or wait till the next addition and see if anything comes around then.
Thousand Nuns wrote:
Yeah i used the IA rules and had my INQ run around in that, my friends never had a problem with the me using an IA tank in our 40k games I used IG salamander/medusa/vanquisher as well before they were updated. Thing is I don't play many if any apoc games these days so I can't really fit the inquisitor in with my sisters. I'll probably let my mate use it with his new GKs till I figure out what to do with it or wait till the next addition and see if anything comes around then.
If your friends didn't mind IA in normal games, they shouldn't mind an allied GK inquisitor in your SoB armies during normal games. It is hardly game-breaking. Although if you try to get Psychotrokes in with a Battle Conclave, someone might cockpunch you. lol
Thousand Nuns wrote:
Yeah i used the IA rules and had my INQ run around in that, my friends never had a problem with the me using an IA tank in our 40k games I used IG salamander/medusa/vanquisher as well before they were updated. Thing is I don't play many if any apoc games these days so I can't really fit the inquisitor in with my sisters. I'll probably let my mate use it with his new GKs till I figure out what to do with it or wait till the next addition and see if anything comes around then.
If your friends didn't mind IA in normal games, they shouldn't mind an allied GK inquisitor in your SoB armies during normal games. It is hardly game-breaking. Although if you try to get Psychotrokes in with a Battle Conclave, someone might cockpunch you. lol
Yeah those grenades, christ, my friend keeps using them but i've yet to see the full effect as he seems to roll a lot of ones though i wince every time he rolls knowing i'm liable to get a severe pasting. Might be pushing them a bit on that one. I'll see what they say, knowing I've got plenty of INQ stuff they should be ok especially if he replaces Uriah.
Totalwar1402 wrote:Have you tried using Dark Eldar Warriors for basic sisters. They already have very similar shoulder pads and shape.
Serious? Not sure why I would substitute DE Warriors for Sisters. The aesthetic is a lot different. With DCA, the aesthetic is very similar to Wyches when you scrape off spikes and clean them up a bit.
Totalwar1402 wrote:Have you tried using Dark Eldar Warriors for basic sisters. They already have very similar shoulder pads and shape.
Serious? Not sure why I would substitute DE Warriors for Sisters. The aesthetic is a lot different. With DCA, the aesthetic is very similar to Wyches when you scrape off spikes and clean them up a bit.
Pick up a female dark eldar warrior. They have the exact same horizontal spiked shoulder pads sisters have right down to the small indent on the underside. Some of them have exactly the same corset type armour. They're also very thin, but are clearly wearing a form of plate armour. Wear away a few of the spikes on the knee guards and maybe the segment joints to create the impression of more uniform plates. As far as the faces go, most of the pointed ears are covered by hair anyways and since their (elfishness) is less pronounced than on the male models you could easily pass them off as humans with aristocratic bone structure. That, and I've also seen the exact same conversion work on eldar guardians. he had to use a lot of green stuff but that was mainly to plug up holes on the legs and arms which you wouldn't need to do on dark eldar. Oh, and add bolters n marine back packs of course!
pretre wrote:Also, can we be done with the whole 'X IS THE ONLY GOOD CHOICE AND YOU ARE GIMPING YOURSELF IF YOU DON'T TAKE IT'. Seriously. It is overblown. Just because the internets say that there is only one good build doesn't mean it is true. The internets said that the book sucked and that is starting to be proven wrong. Expand your mind a bit.
It does suck. Certainly we've not seen it doing anything different from what many of us have said on day one to be proven wrong: melta spam scouts, battle conclave drop bomb.
pretre wrote:That's kind of speculation. We don't know why SoB don't get new minis, but we do know that Jes was/is working on plsatics.
Yep it is speculation, hence starting the sentence with "I think..."
Only GW truly knows why SoB don't get new minis, but my speculation makes good sense, which is why I think that way.
Skriker
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pretre wrote:Re: DCA I finally got a pic of my DE wyches DCA:
Wow! Those look awesome.
Skriker
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Thousand Nuns wrote:I agree with your points on models being outdated/replaced etc as the editions advance it happens so its just something you've got to live with, though i'm still sore that i've got a lovely land raider prometheus with spaced armour and inq doors that cost a ruddy fortune to buy that i can't use anymore but hey ho. But I got the last WH codex intending to use IG as allies and then expand them later into a full army. I collected them bit by bit over time and they developed nicely into another army so wasn't stung when they were removed in the new list.
Also regarding DCAs I had an Arbites themed INQ faction in my army, i use the cyber mastiffs as DCAs and enforcers with storm shields and power mauls as crusaders for the battle conclave, i just need 4 more mastiffs from somewhere to make my standard 3 crusader 7 dca unit.
You can still use your prometheus with marines, if you have them, but if you don't...yeah that is annoying...
I like the arbites mastiffs as DCAs concept. That is pretty cool.
Skriker
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LordOfTheSloths wrote:They should have classified them "Burn Before Reading." Yet another of my armies has now gone into retirement.
But at least this time I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who "hates change."
Due to needing to purchase other models I had sold off my SoB part of my inqusitor army years ago, but happened to need some new Flames of War stuff not long before the GK codex came out and the rest of the inquisitors and grey knights hit ebay for sale. After I saw the GK codex I was kind of glad I had sold them off since the character of the army was not the way I enjoyed playing it anymore.
Of course I can only use so many armies in the limited 40k play time that I have these days, so the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters were definitely superfluous at that point for me. Besides all of my chaos armies I can mix together on the table top if I really want to do so.
Seconded.
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