32729
Post by: cute-hydra
The chronemetron says that I can reroll any of the unit's D6 rolls.. well that would include Deepstriking, while I wouldn't be able to reroll the scatter dice as it's not a D6 can I reroll one of the two die for distance.
To clarify I am using Veil of Darkness so I don't need to be told that crypteks in a squad can't deepstrike.
Secondly, if I was to use it for a leadership role can I reroll one of the die.. so say I roll a 6/4 I can use it to just reroll the 6..
C-Hydra
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Anytime you roll multiple dice (i.e. scatter or Ld) you either re-roll all or none. So you would not be able to re-roll 1 of 2.
32729
Post by: cute-hydra
But I could reroll both?
46128
Post by: Happyjew
No as it only allows the re-roll of a single d6. DS (and blast weapon) scatters are 2d6, same as Ld, so you would have to be able to re-roll both.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
This is something I have been curious about as well. If you have 2 chronometrons in a unit can you re-roll...
a deep strike scatter?
a leadership test?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
No. The ability only works on a d6 roll. Both of those are 2d6.
You can't combine the abilities.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
rigeld2 wrote:You can't combine the abilities.
why?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
The ability says to reroll a d6. Nothing about combining them. You have no permission to keep adding Chroms. until you can reroll what you're trying for.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
This makes decent sense. If the ability said "give a unit with up to 10 models furious charge," I wouldn't expect you to be able to combine two of them to give a 20 man squad FC.
The only place I can currently see permission possibly coming from is p2 BRB (Re-rolls), and that is only because of an off hand memory of some faq language somewhere saying something about in order to re-roll 2d6 you must be able to re-roll both/all dice. I'll have to poke around and see what I'm mis-remembering.
20963
Post by: Kommissar Kel
Point of order:
How were you planning to have 2 eternity crypteks deep-strike at all to begin with?
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
You can do it with Obyron.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
The other problem with re-rolling DS scatter, is the unit getting the re-roll technically is not on board when the re-roll would happen.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Happyjew wrote:Anytime you roll multiple dice (i.e. scatter or Ld) you either re-roll all or none. So you would not be able to re-roll 1 of 2.
Not true. You didn't read all of it.
"If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, Unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
The rule is "if the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase."
So yes you can use it to re-roll that one D6 for the scatter dice roll. Two if you have two Cryteks.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
No, you can't. The scatter roll is a 2d6 roll.
The Chromo only allows a d6 roll to be rerolled.
2d6 != d6.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
The rule allows one of those d6 to be re-rolled. That rule allows it.
It is one of the units d6 rolls. just one though.
It doesn't say any one d6 roll it says one of the units d6 rolls.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Scatter dice isn't 2 1d6 rolls, it's a 2d6 roll.
The rules state you must re-roll both or none.
The Chromo allows you to re-roll a d6 roll - note that it does not allow a 2d6 roll.
You're implying that by saying "d6" it's any roll that uses a d6. That makes no sense in the context of the rules as every roll is a d6 roll using that interpretation. Also, general usage in the rules of "d6" to mean "one d6" means you're wrong.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
No because it is any and this does allow it because how the rule is worded.
The rule allows one d6 to be re-rolled. So this is the rule that allows this to happen.
They don't have to any 2d6 or any 3d6. you are rolling d6s and the ability allows you to re-roll one of those d6 rolls of your choosing.
So you are wrong bro. This rule is solid.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
bladedragon03 wrote:No because it is any and this does allow it because how the rule is worded.
The rule allows one d6 to be re-rolled. So this is the rule that allows this to happen.
They don't have to any 2d6 or any 3d6. you are rolling d6s and the ability allows you to re-roll one of those d6 rolls of your choosing.
So you are wrong bro. This rule is solid.
...
page 30 under Blast wrote:Roll the scatter dice and 2D6
to see where the shot lands.
You cannot use a Chrono to re-toll a scatter shot.
Heck, Blast weapons even specify what happens with re-rolls!
same page wrote:Blast weapons and re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and
chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player
must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.
See how it says 2d6? Not 2 d6?
Since you can only re-roll one, and the rules require you to be able to re-roll both, you can't re-roll either.
And before you mention Deep Strike being different:
page 95 wrote:If a scatter
occurs, roll 2D6 to see how many inches the model
moves away from the intended position.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Ok dude the codex trumps the BRB so that alone allows this to happen. Also I was never talking about the scatter die just the 2d6 you also roll with it. They are 2 six sided dice after all. not a whole different kind of die.
If you don't believe me then Call gw and ask them.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
bladedragon03 wrote:Ok dude the codex trumps the BRB so that alone allows this to happen.
If you don't believe me then Call gw and ask them.
Again - wrong.
Specific trumps General. There's nothing specific here - the Codex is allowing you to re-roll a d6. It does not allow you to re-roll a d6 out of a 2d6 roll.
20774
Post by: pretre
A very similar ruling was made on the wolf standard which allows you to reroll all rolls of '1' on a D6.
Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually. Automatically Appended Next Post: bladedragon03 wrote:If you don't believe me then Call gw and ask them.
Also, this is not a productive response as GW Customer Service is not a reliable source of rules answers.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Look guys the GW guy on the phone told me all of that. So I don't know what else to tell you other then you guys are looking into this way to hard.
Just face the fact that it allow one of the 6s rolls. It doesn't say any one of your one d6 rolls.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
bladedragon03 wrote:Look guys the GW guy on the phone told me all of that. So I don't know what else to tell you other then you guys are looking into this way to hard. Just face the fact that it allow one of the 6s rolls. It doesn't say any one of your one d6 rolls.
I don't care what the Prince of Wales told you on the phone - the tenets of this forum say that's not admissible. And I will not face the fact that what you're telling me is against the rules. edit: That line should be "And I will face the fact that what you're telling me is against the rules and will therefore not play that way nor allow others to.
20774
Post by: pretre
bladedragon03 wrote:Look guys the GW guy on the phone told me all of that. So I don't know what else to tell you other then you guys are looking into this way to hard.
Just face the fact that it allow one of the 6s rolls. It doesn't say any one of your one d6 rolls.
I suggest you read the rules for this sub-forum: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page
2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Either way the rule allows one of those d6 to be rerolled because of how it's worded. Yes you are rolling 2d6 but the rule allows you to reroll one of the d6's that are rolled.
Even the rule on page 2 says it can. This is because the rule is granting it to happen.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
And all re-rolls for multiple dice be it 2d6, 3d6 or even 15d6, you are required to re-roll all the dice, not some of them.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Unless the rule that is allowing the re-roll allows it which Chro. does.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
bladedragon03 wrote:Unless the rule that is allowing the re-roll allows it which Chro. does.
Quote where it is more specific than page 2.
Page 2 says [paraphrased] if you want to re-roll a multi-die roll, you have to re-roll all of them.
Chrono does not have something that allows you to re-roll only one die out of a set.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
The unit may re-roll one of the d6 rolls. The unit is rolling 2d6 for the scatter. One of those D6 can be re-rolled. Codex Trumps the BRB.
Do they really have to put in writing that this can be used on XD6 as well?
You can't assault out of deep strike but a certain ork unit can because the codex trumps the BRB.
And now I'm done with this page.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Again, WRONG!
SPECIFIC trumps GENERAL.
You have permission to re-roll 1 1d6. not one-half of a 2d6. Even if your statement was true, that you could re-roll one of the two dice, The units must be on the table and in-play. Until you have the whole unit in play (which is after you roll for DS scatter), you cannot use the ability.
19347
Post by: gregor_xenos
Wow.... Just wow.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
bladedragon03 wrote:The unit may re-roll one of the d6 rolls. The unit is rolling 2d6 for the scatter. One of those D6 can be re-rolled. Codex Trumps the BRB.
Wrong, specific trumps general.
Do they really have to put in writing that this can be used on XD6 as well?
Yes. Absolutely. Because the rules already say that if you want to re-roll Xd6, you have to be able to re-roll them all.
To counter that you have to have specific allowance.
You can't assault out of deep strike but a certain ork unit can because the codex trumps the BRB.
That Ork unit can because specific overrides general. In general you can't, that unit has a rule that allows it to. There are cases where the BRB trumps itself, and where the BRB trumps codexes.
And now I'm done with this page.
I'm sorry you prefer being wrong.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Happyjew wrote:Again, WRONG!
SPECIFIC trumps GENERAL.
You have permission to re-roll 1 1d6. not one-half of a 2d6. Even if your statement was true, that you could re-roll one of the two dice, The units must be on the table and in-play. Until you have the whole unit in play (which is after you roll for DS scatter), you cannot use the ability.
Ok no. Imot. does not need to be on the board to be able to use the storm or to keep it in play. Also if a lord with Res. Orb dies and some of the unit they are not in play but still get the Res. Orb bonus for that phase.
Because it states that you can re-roll one of the units d6 roll for each phase.
It would be done in the movement phase and there for can be re-rolled. It doesn't have to state that because it's any d6 that is rolled that phase can be re-rolled. But only one per phase.
I'm not playing wrong I'm playing right and you are just being way to picky. Just like those other people saying that a unit and a Dred can't be sucked in the monolith portal because the models are facing away from it.
I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
bladedragon03 wrote:I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.
And you haven't cited one thing to refute the fact that you have to re-roll all the dice in a set. Just one is all I ask.
You aren't playing right, and I'm not being picky. This isn't even pedantic. 1 does not equal more than one.
49408
Post by: McNinja
bladedragon03 wrote:Happyjew wrote:Again, WRONG!
SPECIFIC trumps GENERAL.
You have permission to re-roll 1 1d6. not one-half of a 2d6. Even if your statement was true, that you could re-roll one of the two dice, The units must be on the table and in-play. Until you have the whole unit in play (which is after you roll for DS scatter), you cannot use the ability.
Ok no. Imot. does not need to be on the board to be able to use the storm or to keep it in play. Also if a lord with Res. Orb dies and some of the unit they are not in play but still get the Res. Orb bonus for that phase.
Because it states that you can re-roll one of the units d6 roll for each phase.
It would be done in the movement phase and there for can be re-rolled. It doesn't have to state that because it's any d6 that is rolled that phase can be re-rolled. But only one per phase.
I'm not playing wrong I'm playing right and you are just being way to picky. Just like those other people saying that a unit and a Dred can't be sucked in the monolith portal because the models are facing away from it.
I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.
Picky? No, not really. Deep-Striking is a units 2d6 roll. Rolling to hit, wound, penetrate, move through difficult terrain, and damage a vehicle are a unit's D6 roll. You can only re-roll a D6 roll, not part of a 2d6 roll, because you don't roll a d6 then roll another d6 separately; you roll 2d6, making the roll a 2d6 roll, not a d6 roll. Hopefully this makes a bit more sense to you.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
rigeld2 wrote:bladedragon03 wrote:I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.
And you haven't cited one thing to refute the fact that you have to re-roll all the dice in a set. Just one is all I ask.
You aren't playing right, and I'm not being picky. This isn't even pedantic. 1 does not equal more than one.
Ok after talking to my friend. You are right and I'm wrong. Even though it was intended the way I'm stating it. You are right because of how it's wrote. Sorry i was wrong in my english. But how I'm stating it is how it was intended.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
How you think it was intended. You can't prove intent one way or the other.
14
Post by: Ghaz
Without a statement from the author declaring otherwise, there is no reason to believe that what was written is not exactly what he intended.
12130
Post by: bladedragon03
Talking to the GW and that's how they intended it to be. Just bad wording. That's why they make FAQ and Errata. They just never really came across this problem before. But this is how they told me they intended it to be.
14
Post by: Ghaz
bladedragon03 wrote:Talking to the GW and that's how they intended it to be. Just bad wording...
Except the mail order person who answered the phone when you called doesn't know that. He doesn't have some super secret FAQ that we don't to answer a question. Its nothing more than his opinion, not a cold hard fact.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
Edit: question was answered.
2d6 = 1d6 + 1d6.
The codex SPECIFICALLY says you can reroll one of those 1d6.
There is no 2d6. A 2d6 means you have 2 - 1d6.
Also, crypteks cannot arrive via deepstrike. The guy is asking about Veil of Darkness. So the cryptek has to already be on the board to use it. He's already on the board, using Veil, he can use his cronometron too.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
Nemesor Dave wrote:Edit: question was answered.
2d6 = 1d6 + 1d6.
The codex SPECIFICALLY says you can reroll one of those 1d6.
There is no 2d6. A 2d6 means you have 2 - 1d6.
Page 2 of the BGB seems to disagree with you.
" if you re-roll a 2D6 or a 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise" Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nemesor Dave wrote:Also, crypteks cannot arrive via deepstrike. The guy is asking about Veil of Darkness. So the cryptek has to already be on the board to use it. He's already on the board, using Veil, he can use his cronometron too.
And the Necron FAQ seems to disagree with you here. The FAQ explicitly states that a unit may VoD onto the board from reserve.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
azazel the cat wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:Edit: question was answered.
2d6 = 1d6 + 1d6.
The codex SPECIFICALLY says you can reroll one of those 1d6.
There is no 2d6. A 2d6 means you have 2 - 1d6.
Page 2 of the BGB seems to disagree with you.
" if you re-roll a 2D6 or a 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"
The codex specifically allows otherwise - it says 1d6. 2d6 means you are rolling two dice. The codex specifies to re-roll one of those.
azazel the cat wrote:
Nemesor Dave wrote:Also, crypteks cannot arrive via deepstrike. The guy is asking about Veil of Darkness. So the cryptek has to already be on the board to use it. He's already on the board, using Veil, he can use his cronometron too.
And the Necron FAQ seems to disagree with you here. The FAQ explicitly states that a unit may VoD onto the board from reserve.
The sequence in this case is a fine distinction but important. The unit with the cryptek rolls for reserves and if success full, gets to move on the board. It cannot be placed in reserve as a deepstrike unit because crypteks do not have the deepstrike rule.
When the unit moves, to move on the board, it may use the Veil to move (using deepstrike rules). You still rolled for reserves, and essentially are walking onto the board but using Veil as your movement.
This is important because if a cryptek was just allowed to deepstrike, then it could join a unit of deathmarks and deepstrike in your opponents turn. It doesn't have the deepstrike rule, so the unit cannot.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
"The codex specifically allows otherwise - it says 1d6. 2d6 means you are rolling two dice. The codex specifies to re-roll one of those. "
No, it does not specifically allow otherwise. Again, you dont understand what specific means.
In order to reroll one of a 2D6 roll, the special rule HAS to say "you may reroll one D6 o f a multiple D6 roll", or similar. Saying you can reroll a single D6 doesnt cut it
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:"The codex specifically allows otherwise - it says 1d6. 2d6 means you are rolling two dice. The codex specifies to re-roll one of those. "
No, it does not specifically allow otherwise. Again, you dont understand what specific means.
In order to reroll one of a 2D6 roll, the special rule HAS to say "you may reroll one D6 o f a multiple D6 roll", or similar. Saying you can reroll a single D6 doesnt cut it
The BRB says you must reroll the entire roll, unless a different number of dice is specified. 2d6, 3d6 is not an item in itself, it is referring to 1d6 + 1d6, or 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d6. If I hand you three dice and say roll 3d6, and then say reroll 1d6. You wouldn't say "i can't because i didn't roll 1d6, i rolled 3d6".
The rulebook explains that 2d6 is an abbreviation for rolling two dice, its not a keyword or a condition. It just means 2 dice.
The codex will never say "reroll 1d6 of 2d6, and 3d6, oh and its okay if its 4d6 too" and even many more dice as you can think of. It just need to say you can reroll 1d6, meaning 1 of as many dice as you're required to roll!
That same argument could be said for mass shooting that you roll together. I roll 20 dice to hit for my shooting necrons, and i can reroll 1d6, oh but wait, its not 1d6, its 20 dice. Are you really saying this?
649
Post by: Thanatos_elNyx
How cool would it be if there was a 2D6 Die?
It would be like a 36 sided object with six 7s, five 5s and 6s, etc.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
ND - yes, yes it is a different roll. All it would have to do is say "this can be one of a multiple D6 roll", so stop being quite so obtuse in your responses.
If you dont want to follow the rules - fine, this is just another example of NDhammer40k. Meanwhile everyone else will play it correctly
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - yes, yes it is a different roll. All it would have to do is say "this can be one of a multiple D6 roll", so stop being quite so obtuse in your responses.
If you dont want to follow the rules - fine, this is just another example of NDhammer40k. Meanwhile everyone else will play it correctly
The Codex will not over explain every little detail. The actual wording is "...may reroll one of his D6 rolls". It doesn't even specify 1d6 or 2d6. Just " D6".
2d6 is - two D6 rolls. For leadership he rolls two D6. Now he may reroll one of his D6 rolls. Is that not specific enough for you?
5394
Post by: reds8n
nosferatu1001 wrote:, this is just another example of NDhammer40k. Meanwhile everyone else will play it correctly
These are the sort of lines we can do without please. Thanks.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Nemesor Dave wrote:
The Codex will not over explain every little detail. The actual wording is "...may reroll one of his D6 rolls". It doesn't even specify 1d6 or 2d6. Just "D6".
2d6 is - two D6 rolls. For leadership he rolls two D6. Now he may reroll one of his D6 rolls. Is that not specific enough for you?
A 1D6 roll is a D6 roll. When you roll 2D6 are you rolling a D6 roll? No, you are rolling a 2D6 roll.
Again, specific means something different than what you think it does.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
The Codex will not over explain every little detail. The actual wording is "...may reroll one of his D6 rolls". It doesn't even specify 1d6 or 2d6. Just "D6".
2d6 is - two D6 rolls. For leadership he rolls two D6. Now he may reroll one of his D6 rolls. Is that not specific enough for you?
A 1D6 roll is a D6 roll. When you roll 2D6 are you rolling a D6 roll? No, you are rolling a 2D6 roll.
Again, specific means something different than what you think it does.
Yes, when you roll 2D6 you are making two D6 rolls. You may reroll one. The codex does not say you may reroll one of your 1D6 rolls. 2d6 is not a category of roll. It is just the number of dice.
Roll two dice. Now you may now reroll one. Has it specified how many? Yes, one.
If it was," you may reroll one of your rolls", that is not specific, so the BRB says you must reroll all. In that case you cannot choose to only roll one D6.
The codex says reroll one D6. That is specific so you're not confused and think you can reroll all of them. Just reroll one of your D6 out of any number of dice used for the roll.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:Yes, when you roll 2D6 you are making two D6 rolls. You may reroll one. The codex does not say you may reroll one of your 1D6 rolls. 2d6 is not a category of roll. It is just the number of dice.
page 2 wrote:
Almost all of the dice rolls in
Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually
referred to as ‘D6’).
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the
indicated number of dice and add the scores together,
so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for
a score of between 2-12. Another method is to
multiply the score of a dice by a certain amount, such
as D6x5 for a total between 5 and 30. Finally, a
combination of methods may be used, such as 3D6-3
giving a total of 0-15.
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.
There is nothing in the Chrono rule that explicitly specifies.
Roll two dice. Now you may now reroll one. Has it specified how many? Yes, one.
Yes -but it did not explicitly say that that one die can be part of a multi- d6 roll.
The codex says reroll one D6. That is specific so you're not confused and think you can reroll all of them. Just reroll one of your D6 out of any number of dice used for the roll.
Except that's not how the rules work.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Most times multiple d6 are rolled it is a shortcut - a specifically allowed one. They are unique instances of 1d6 rolls done simultaneously. i.e. 1d6 twice to represent two attack rolls. An actual roll of multiple d6 is different, as it is finding the value of the total roll - thus the mention that 2d6 is to get 2-12. They are unique instance of a single roll of xd6. i.e. 2d6 represents a single Leadership roll. If you did not roll 1d6, you cannot re-roll 1d6. Otherwise, everyone else said it, and rigeld2 spelled it out.
2633
Post by: Yad
kirsanth wrote:Most times multiple d6 are rolled it is a shortcut - a specifically allowed one. They are unique instances of 1d6 rolls done simultaneously.
i.e. 1d6 twice to represent two attack rolls.
An actual roll of multiple d6 is different, as it is finding the value of the total roll - thus the mention that 2d6 is to get 2-12. They are unique instance of a single roll of xd6.
i.e. 2d6 represents a single Leadership roll.
If you did not roll 1d6, you cannot re-roll 1d6.
Otherwise, everyone else said it, and rigeld2 spelled it out.
To play Devil's Advocate then...
Since we are treating the terms 2d6 and 1d6 as having specific meaning within the confines of the game, does the Chrono rule specifically mention that you are allowed to roll a 1d6? Or does it refer to just d6. If it's the former, then yes I agree with you, if it's the later then I would suggest that the Chrono rule doesn't care about 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 nomenclature. If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule,
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise.
-Yad
47462
Post by: rigeld2
d6 and 1d6 are synonymous in the rules.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
Interesting disagreement. I see a strong RAI argument for a partial re-roll of a Xd6. When I first read the new necron codex, that's what I thought chronometron allowed. I used it to re-roll parts of deep strike scatter and morale tests.
When I try to figure out RAI, I try to see the rule as though I just read it for the first time and there is no hidden meaning. I don't think GW purposefully makes these things complicated. We might enjoy thinking so, but that says more about us than them.
I agree that RAW p2 BRB gives a tacit equality between "dice" and "d6". IMO, this equality does not trump the strong language in the re-rerolls rules box - "unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"
GW might have intended you to be able to re-roll part of a Xd6, but RAW I don't think you can.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
I don't think the intent is there even. I don't see how it's grey at all.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
rigeld2 wrote:I don't think the intent is there even. I don't see how it's grey at all.
Again, my argument for the intent is a very personal one. It does not translate well into dry text. I will try to break it down.
A) I don't think GW purposefully makes these things that complicated. (debatable - especially here, but bear with me)
B) I am a reasonably intelligent and objective person. (debatable - especially by ex-girlfriends)
C) When I first read the rule for chronometron in the new necron codex, I thought you could re-roll part of a Xd6 roll.
D) After some thought and re-reading p2 BRB and some faq language, I saw that RAW it did not allow it, mostly because of the "explicitly specifies otherwise"
Thus I am left with an impression that RAI it's allowed, RAW it is not.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
It's not complicated - to make it complicated you have to inject rules. It's extremely simple - you can't re-roll multi-d6 rolls unless you're allowed to. Chrono doesn't allow you to.
To argue that it was intended, you have to add words to the Chrono rule. (well, argue that they just left words out). To me, this does not make sense.
BTW - I don't disagree with #2.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but IMO the simplest way of interpreting the rule allows for the re-roll. In 40k, you often roll dice. Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice (in the US, I would say 'die' as the singular, aka d6 per page 2 BRB)
Any further interpretation is more complicated. Not wrong, but more complicated. It requires more steps and more rigorous thinking. If it is immediately obvious to one person, I would say that is more likely due to that person's experience and strong critical thinking skills, not due to clear wording on GW's part.
I think that if you showed a game of 40k to a group of small children, read them the chronometron rule, rolled 2d6, picked up one of the dice and asked them "can I use my chronometron to re-roll this?" most would say yes.
We are not small children, but that is not a failing on their part nor an achievement on ours. It's just a difference.
2633
Post by: Yad
So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?
-Yad
49408
Post by: McNinja
Except the BRB states the differenc e between D6 and 2d6 rolls. D6s are to wound, to hit, vehicle pen, vehicle damage, armor saves, invuln saves, any save, and falling back, i.e. any roll that only uses a single d6 in its roll. Anything else is an Xd6 roll, and is not allowed by the Chronometron.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Yad wrote:So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?
-Yad
No, according to page 2 in the BRB, a 2d6 roll is explicitly different from a 1d6 roll, and to re-roll a 2d6 roll you must be able to re-roll both dice.
2633
Post by: Yad
rigeld2 wrote:Yad wrote:So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?
-Yad
No, according to page 2 in the BRB, a 2d6 roll is explicitly different from a 1d6 roll, and to re-roll a 2d6 roll you must be able to re-roll both dice.
...unless a rule specifically allows you to do so.
Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6? Again, I don't have my BRB with me at the moment, but if that text is not there you've got a problem when you start treating 1d6, 2d6, & 3d6 as discreet entities.
If you're treating the 2d6 as inviolate, meaning that there is no way a reference to d6 can refer to one of the d6 dice that comprises a 2d6 roll then I would not find fault with your argument. I think though that the Chrono rule should have read, ...re-roll one of his 1d6 rolls for each phase (this assumes that d6 and 1d6 are not synonymous)
-Yad
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
"Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as 'd6')."
Edit: It's possible we're being too broad in our reading of the last sentence in re-rolls on p2. I could also interpret that as saying "when called upon to re-roll Xd6, you must re-roll all X dice" Chronometron is not calling for an Xd6 re-roll. It calls for the re-roll of a single die.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Yad wrote:Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6?
Math. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yad wrote:If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule
This can not work. xD6 is a roll of xD6, not x rolls of D6, so you cannot re-roll part of it - you never rolled the D6, you rolled xD6. (The obvious exception to this should be obvious; where x=1)
2633
Post by: Yad
kirsanth wrote:Yad wrote:Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6?
Math.
Obviously I meant within the context of the rules. If you're treating 2d6, 1d6 as 'things' you need to show, in the rules, that d6 is the same as 1d6.
kirsanth wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yad wrote:If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule
This can not work. xD6 is a roll of xD6, not x rolls of D6, so you cannot re-roll part of it - you never rolled the D6, you rolled xD6.
(The obvious exception to this should be obvious; where x=1)
Hmm, you can't say d6 is synonymous with 1d6 and then say that two 1d6's are not synonymous with 2d6 (Math  )
-Yad
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Yad wrote:
Hmm, you can't say d6 is synonymous with 1d6 and then say that two 1d6's are not synonymous with 2d6 (Math  )
-Yad
In this specific case you can, because Xd6 is used as a jargon term in the 40k ruleset. It literally means something different than it does in other contexts; the 40k ruleset tells you that a roll of 2d6, or a roll of 3d6, is not multiple individual d6 rolls but one BIG roll, and all the dice which are part of it are 'joined at the hip', so to speak. You can't pick one up and re-roll it without picking up all the others and re-rolling them, too.
That is, there is a distinction made between rolling 1d6 twice, and rolling 2d6, which doesn't exist in the real world but does in Warhammer 40k.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
BeRzErKeR wrote:That is, there is a distinction made between rolling 1d6 twice, and rolling 2d6, which doesn't exist in the real world but does in Warhammer 40k.
It exists there too.
It is impossible to get 1 on 2d6, but not when rolling 1 d6 twice. Doing that can get you two ones.
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Post by: Happyjew
2d6 is (1d6+1d6 for a result of 2-12). 2 1d6's is (1d6,1d6 for a result of 1-6, 1-6).
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
kirsanth wrote:
It is impossible to get 1 on 2d6, but not when rolling 1 d6 twice. Doing that can get you two ones.
But the mechanic used for most rolls in 40k seems to indicate that you consider the dice independently as well as adding the total; that's why this argument crops up in the first place, and it has to be clarified that in 40k they're different things, even though in most cases they are treated identically. You can certainly roll a 1 with, for instance, a Bloodfeeder, even though it's a 2d6 roll.
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Post by: foolishmortal
I wonder if there is any rules language in the psycic tests section that would be helpful here. Doesn't perils of the warp say something about double sixs and double ones? If GW wanted there to be a distinction why didn't they say 12 or 2?
Edit: found it - page 50 BRB (5th) - "a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened"
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Because you can be forced to take psychic checks on more than 2D6 (Farseers and SitW come to mind) and you perils on *any* double-1 or double-6, not just on a result of 2 or 12
5873
Post by: kirsanth
It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.
It says may re-roll a D6 roll.
A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.
It says may re-roll a D6 roll.
A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.
Thissomuch.
kirsanth, we agree too much.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.
It says may re-roll a D6 roll.
A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.
Right. I'm not disagreeing with you; I was attempting to present an explanation for why that was true to Yad.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.
It says may re-roll a D6 roll.
A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.
You may reroll one D6 roll.
A 2D6 roll is two D6 rolls.
A 1D6 roll is one D6 roll.
If you're going to this extreme then anywhere you find a roll of 1D6, it can't be rerolled because it is not a " D6" it is a 1D6. If you're demanding this precision in the language, you can't pick and choose where you apply it.
If you're going to say a D6 = 1D6, then 2D6 is D6 + D6 of which one may be rerolled and the rule works in all cases, 1D6, 2D, xD6.
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Post by: rigeld2
No. A d6 is the same thing as 1d6, but a 2d6 roll is different. You accomplish a 2d6 roll by rolling 2 d6's, but it is not the same thing as a d6 plus a d6.
Not that this is spelled out in the rule-- oh wait, Nevermind.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
rigeld2 wrote:page 2 wrote:Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as ‘D6’).
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score of between 2-12. Another method is to multiply the score of a dice by a certain amount, such as D6x5 for a total between 5 and 30. Finally, a combination of methods may be used, such as 3D6-3 giving a total of 0-15.
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise.
There is nothing in the Chrono rule that explicitly specifies that it can be used to re-roll one die out of the 2d6 roll.
pretre wrote:A very similar ruling was made on the wolf standard which allows you to reroll all rolls of '1' on a D6.
Space Wolf FAQ. wrote: Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a single roll, not address them individually.
The rules here are clear, if counter-intuitive to some. A 2d6 roll or 3d6 roll is considered, within the context of the 40k rules, to be a separate and distinct thing from a 1d6 roll or a pair of 1d6 rolls. Chronometron only allows re-rolling single d6s.
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Post by: kirsanth
Mannahnin said it better
34618
Post by: Cryage
Im a huge necron player and i would love to re-roll one d6 with the chronometron, but the simple fact is you cant.
It lets you reroll a SINGLE d6 roll per phase.... Ie reanimation protocol, a shot, dangerous terrain check, etc.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Nemesor Dave wrote:
You may reroll one D6 roll.
A 2D6 roll is two D6 rolls.
A 1D6 roll is one D6 roll.
If you're going to this extreme then anywhere you find a roll of 1D6, it can't be rerolled because it is not a "D6" it is a 1D6. If you're demanding this precision in the language, you can't pick and choose where you apply it.
If you're going to say a D6 = 1D6, then 2D6 is D6 + D6 of which one may be rerolled and the rule works in all cases, 1D6, 2D, xD6.
In general, that is in the real world, you're basically correct. The act of rolling 2d6 is the same as the act of rolling two d6's; that's just definitional.
But within the 40k ruleset, there exists a different definition of ' 2d6 roll', or ' 3d6 roll', or 'Anynumberthatisn't1d6 roll'; what I'm calling Xd6, for short. In 40k, rolling Xd6 is not, for the purposes of applying the rules of the game, the same as rolling enough d6's to add up to Xd6. You can't treat them the same.
In shooting, you roll a number of d6s depending on the size of the unit and what weapons they are using, BUT each roll is individual. If I'm shooting with, say, 30 Shoota Boyz, I do NOT roll 60d6; rather I roll d6 60 separate times. In 40k, those two are different. Since a Chronometron allows you to reroll a d6, if my Orks somehow had a Chronometron, I could reroll one of those dice.
If I'm Deep Striking some Stormboyz with Zagstruck, I do NOT roll a d6 two separate times; rather I roll 2d6. Again, in the context of 40k, those aren't the same thing. Since a Chronometron allows you to roll a d6, not 2d6, I could not use it to reroll Scatter. Why? Because Scatter is a single roll; the fact that it happens to use two individual dice is immaterial, for the purposes of the rules of the game.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Cryage wrote:Im a huge necron player and i would love to re-roll one d6 with the chronometron, but the simple fact is you cant.
It lets you reroll a SINGLE d6 roll per phase.... Ie reanimation protocol, a shot, dangerous terrain check, etc.
I'm also a Blood Angels player and I think a Necron player should be able to play it as able to reroll a 1 D6 out of 2 D6 when playing against me. It really doesn't change how I read these rules.
Necron Codex.
"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase."
BRB
"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
The BRB sentence says you can't re-roll less that the full number of dice unless the rule states you can re-roll a lower number than the total dice. Meaning, if the rule doesn't specify SOME or ALL then re-roll ALL.
The Necron codex specifies re-roll ONE.
Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling? You're making TWO D6 rolls. Re-roll ONE of them.
RAW, re-rolling one dice of the two dice you roll for a leadership test makes perfect sense. Is there any other example of a rule where any other interpretation would be more clear? Any precedent to think otherwise?
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Nemesor Dave wrote:Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling?
This is your error. Editing for redundancy: The rules care about the roll itself. How many [1] D6 [= 1 to 6] rolls are you making? 0 You are making a single 2D6 [= 2 to 12] roll.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
kirsanth wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling?
This is your error.
Notice the rule does not say you can re-roll one of your 1D6 rolls.
Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".
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Post by: kirsanth
Nemesor Dave wrote:Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".
Other than page 2 of the main rules? Editing to add: I somewhat apologize for someone misreading because this has been posted - in this thread.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
kirsanth wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".
Other than page 2 of the main rules?
Editing to add:
I somewhat apologize for someone misreading because this has be posted - in this thread.
Yes, other than page 2 which only clarifies that if the rule only gives an unspecified number of dice - a "reroll" then you must reroll all dice and not pick and choose which ones to reroll. It is not saying the other way around, that a rule must specify "1 of 2 dice" or "2 of 3 dice". Its saying when the number of dice to re-roll isn't specified, reroll all.
If this is a matter of " 40k" rules convention, surely there are plenty of other examples of rules that work the same way you're saying they should work.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
DOes the Chrono specify you can reroll one of the dice in a 2D6+ roll? No.
That means it HASNT specified that it can, so it cant
Again, this is an error in understanding of what "specific" means, same with SA vs EL
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:DOes the Chrono specify you can reroll one of the dice in a 2D6+ roll? No.
That means it HASNT specified that it can, so it cant
Again, this is an error in understanding of what "specific" means, same with SA vs EL
Edit: bad example.
Chronometron and a leadership 2D6 roll, you can only reroll one dice. Because it specifies you may re-roll ONE.
This is what this means by "specific".
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Post by: Mannahnin
Nemesor Dave wrote:Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".
The Space Wolf FAQ ruling on Wolf Standard, which has been quoted twice now. It tells us clearly that a 2d6 roll is NOT two rolls a single d6. It's a different thing. This is a clarification, bear in mind, not an eratta, so it applies equally to the Chronometron or anything else which allows re-rolling a d6.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".
The Space Wolf FAQ ruling on Wolf Standard, which has been quoted twice now. It tells us clearly that a 2d6 roll is NOT two rolls a single d6. It's a different thing. This is a clarification, bear in mind, not an eratta, so it applies equally to the Chronometron or anything else which allows re-rolling a d6.
Wolf standard:
"For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1"
Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually.
Yes, when evaluating the result of a 2D6 roll, this clarifies that you can't consider the dice separately as 1 + 1. The roll is a roll of 2 and will never be less than 2.
The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6. It is quite possible to reroll a single D6 of two D6's rolled.
This example is regarding the result of the roll, not the numbers of dice involved. A better example would help this debate.
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Post by: kirsanth
Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.
You are wrong. Editing to repeat: It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll. Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
kirsanth wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.
You are wrong.
Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].
Again from the FAQ emphasis on this part: "when making a 2D6 result"
What must you do?
"you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually. "
We are not considering the 2D6 result. We are considering how many dice we can reroll. 2D6 is by definition two dice. Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Nemesor Dave wrote: Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.
No. It lets you re-roll a [single] d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is not a [single] d6 roll. Automatically Appended Next Post: Nemesor Dave wrote:We are not considering the 2D6 result.
We are, however, considering a 2d6 roll. Editing out the part where I said you were considering a 2d6 roll because you are not.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
Nemesor Dave wrote:kirsanth wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.
You are wrong.
Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].
Again from the FAQ emphasis on this part: "when making a 2D6 result"
What must you do?
"you must count both dice as a single roll, not address them individually. "
We are not considering the 2D6 result.
Yes, we most certainly are. On a Leadership roll or Scatter distance roll, we roll two dice and sum them to get a result between two and twelve. Page 2 clarifies that this is called a " 2d6 roll", and that you may not re-roll one of the component dice unless you have a rule explicitly saying otherwise. The Wolf Standard ruling reiterates and reinforces the point. You may not look at those two component die rolls individually and re-roll either of them if it happens to be a 1. Just as you may not use a rule which allows you to re-roll "a d6 roll" to re-roll one of the component dice.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Nemesor Dave wrote:
We are not considering the 2D6 result. We are considering how many dice we can reroll. 2D6 is by definition two dice. Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.
This is where you go wrong. That's not necessarily true in the 40k ruleset.
In 40k, 2d6 is by definition 2-12. You are not allowed to split 2-12 into 1-6 + 1-6, which is what you're trying to do here, except in a few specifically defined circumstances (determining PotW, for instance).
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Post by: rigeld2
A d6 roll is by definition different from a 2d6 roll. The Chrono allows you to re-roll a d6 - meaning you made a d6 roll in the first place.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
I see both sides of this debate.
Quote are mine for emphasis:
1. Rolling 2D6 is a "2D6 roll". Chronometron lets you re-roll one "D6 roll". If the roll contains more than one dice, it is not a "D6 roll".
2. Rolling 2D6 is two D6 rolls. Chronometron lets you reroll one "D6" roll.
The Spacewolf FAQ would clarify this except it is regarding the result of the roll, not the number of dice. A better example would help clear this up if there is one.
The Warptime Chaos FAQ doesn't contradict #2, but it doesn't confirm it either.
BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all. If you interpret this as meaning you must specify 2d6 to reroll 2d6, or specify 3d6 to reroll 3d6, then it leaves wide open the option to reroll fewer than the full number of dice when you're allowed to reroll and doesn't fit the context either.. In this case, if I was allowed to re-roll leadership I could just reroll 1D6 if I chose and there would be no rule against it.
Any other examples of a multi dice roll being counted as a single "roll" and not multiple dice being rolled?
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Post by: Mannahnin
The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.
BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.
That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.
Any other examples of a multi dice roll being counted as a single "roll" and not multiple dice being rolled?
Scatter. You have to re-roll all the dice or none.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.
BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.
That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.
I've seen this rule as quoted to mean what I am saying it means. If it means what you are saying then what stops someone from using Brother Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye from the Blood Angels Codex and just rerolling 1D6 of a leadership roll?
(I would start my own thread, but I am asking in regards specifically to the subject of this thread)
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Post by: Mannahnin
Corbulo has a totally different rule. All-seeing Eye allows you to re-roll any one roll you have just made. It doesn't specify d6 or 2d6 or any number. And it gives examples both of 1d6 rolls and 2d6 rolls.
So he can choose a Leadership test just as easily as a Dangerous Terrain test.
But he still has to re-roll all the dice if he's picking a leadership test. Per the rules on page 2.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
BRB page 2, sidebar titled "Re-rolls & Roll-offs wrote:If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise
Quoted here for clarity.
So, if you choose to reroll a roll of 2d6 or 3d6, you cannot reroll fewer than the maximum number, unless the rule tells you explicitly that you can, which I interpret to mean that the rule must include "You may reroll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll" or equivalent language.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.
BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.
That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.
So you must re-roll both leadership dice, unless explicitly specified otherwise. In this case that the chronometron specifies one D6 is otherwise. I believe stating that its one D6 satisfies this requirement of it being specified as a number different from the number of dice rolled.
The Space Wolf FAQ says the wolf standard doesn't apply because it's :"When making a 2D result" then "not address them individually." Its not a universal statement. I find this in many RAW arguments, taking a single phrase out of a sentence and applying it alone as a rule. This is only regarding how you make the result of 2D6. Chronometron doesn't care about the result, but only the number of dice.
I agree the Brother Corubulo ability works just fine with this rule.
I agree that it's implied you should only be allowed to re-roll a roll that consists of a single D6, but so far I don't see it in the RAW.
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Post by: rigeld2
You have permission to re-roll a d6. You don't have permission to re-roll 2d6. Since the rules state you must re-roll both, and you don't have permission to, you can't.
You have permission to re-roll a d6, not part of a Xd6 roll.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
BeRzErKeR wrote:BRB page 2, sidebar titled "Re-rolls & Roll-offs wrote:If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise
Quoted here for clarity.
So, if you choose to reroll a roll of 2d6 or 3d6, you cannot reroll fewer than the maximum number, unless the rule tells you explicitly that you can, which I interpret to mean that the rule must include "You may reroll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll" or equivalent language.
Isn't saying "you may re-roll one" the same as "you may reroll one of any number of dice?" Both are specifying a number of dice different than the 2D6. The second example is more specific, however both a specific about the number being different.
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Post by: rigeld2
No, it's not. The former says you may re-roll one - and we've established that 1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
The latter says one of many - which is what would be required.
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Post by: Mannahnin
No. You need a statement that "You may use this re-roll to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll" or the equivalent.
Page 2 defines that there are multiple distinct types of rolls, and that re-rolls for one do not apply to the others.
A 1d6 roll is one type of roll.
A 2d6 roll is another type of roll.
A 3d6 roll is another type of roll.
Chronometron only allows you to re-roll the first. All-Seeing eye allows you to re-roll any of them. Neither roll allows you to pick out and re-roll one die out of the second or third types.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
Hmmm. . . I do actually see one other potential argument, which is that the sidebar only says that you must re-roll all the dice if you are specifically re-rolling "a 2d6 or 3d6 roll". Arguably, that leaves room to say that you're NOT re-rolling a 2d6 or 3d6 roll; you're just re-rolling a single d6. That interpretation would narrow the applicability of the sidebar, but it would still be an important rule because it still prevents people who have a rule that allows to "re-roll a failed Leadership check" or something similar from re-rolling only one of the two dice.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Both strictures apply. You can't pick out a single die, nor are a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll interchangeable.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
Mannahnin wrote:Both strictures apply. You can't pick out a single die, nor are a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll interchangeable.
That's my interpretation, too; just wanted to bring up the other potential argument because I hadn't seen it made.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:No, it's not. The former says you may re-roll one - and we've established that 1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
The latter says one of many - which is what would be required.
"you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them"
If you roll two dice and I tell you to re-roll one of them:
Did I tell you to roll two? No. Did I "specifically tell you otherwise" by saying "roll one"? Yes.
It doesn't say I must tell you exactly the original number of dice you rolled, just that I have to tell you to roll something different than your original roll. Chronometron rule does that by specifying a number of dice to re-roll.
This rule does not solve this debate.
A rule like the Wolf Standard rule that was about the number of dice rolled, instead of being about the result of those dice would do it. It is stating that you cannot consider the result rolled on each dice separately, not that a 2d6 roll isn't considered two dice rolls.
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Post by: rigeld2
It does solve this debate. You have no permission to roll part of a Xd6 set. You have permission to roll 1d6 which has a specific meaning in the rules.
Your refusal to understand why it applies doesn't mean it doesn't solve the debate.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:It does solve this debate. You have no permission to roll part of a Xd6 set. You have permission to roll 1d6 which has a specific meaning in the rules.
Your refusal to understand why it applies doesn't mean it doesn't solve the debate.
You have not proven that Xd6 is a set. To say "you may reroll one D6" is less specific than to say "you may reroll one D6 out of 2D6" however it is still specific.
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Post by: rigeld2
1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
2d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
You are allowed to re-roll 1d6.
It's that specific. Since there is no permission to do anything with 2d6, you cannot re-roll just one die.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Chronometron gives you permission to re-roll one of your "d6 rolls", not 1d6. Check the entry.
Page 2 defines a "d6 roll" as a different thing from a "2d6 roll".
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:No. You need a statement that "You may use this re-roll to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll" or the equivalent.
Page 2 defines that there are multiple distinct types of rolls, and that re-rolls for one do not apply to the others.
A 1d6 roll is one type of roll.
A 2d6 roll is another type of roll.
A 3d6 roll is another type of roll.
Chronometron only allows you to re-roll the first. All-Seeing eye allows you to re-roll any of them. Neither roll allows you to pick out and re-roll one die out of the second or third types.
I don't see anything on the page defining rolls as a type of roll. Nothing says 2D6 is a single roll, or 2D6 is not two D6 rolls. It just isn't on the page as RAW.
For 2D6 and 3D6 re-rolls "you must reroll all of them" unless specified otherwise.
There are two ways a rule can specify otherwise:
1. A rule says "you are not required to reroll all dice"
2. A rule says "You may reroll one D6."
Both cases are specifying otherwise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mannahnin wrote:Chronometron gives you permission to re-roll one of your "d6 rolls", not 1d6. Check the entry.
I completely agree.
Mannahnin wrote:
Page 2 defines a "d6 roll" as a different thing from a "2d6 roll".
Which part? Can you quote it?
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Post by: Happyjew
Xd6 means "roll x number of dice and add them together." The result of any one of those dice affect the over all roll.
In some cases you might roll multiple d6's simultaneously (such as when shooting). In that case you roll X d6. Each d6 affects only itself. Not the overall total. When you have permission to re-roll a d6 (aka 1d6), it must be used on a 1d6 roll.
Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll. Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 2:
Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 uses standard 6-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')
This tells us that a d6 is a standard 6-sided die.
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2d6, 3d6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together...
This tells us that Xd6 is X number of 6 sided dice added together, to get a result of X to 6x.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Happyjew wrote:
Page 2:
Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 uses standard 6-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')
This tells us that a d6 is a standard 6-sided die.
The chronometron specifically mentions a " D6 roll", not a "1D6 roll". This would mean it is referring to an individual dice, not a "roll". This actually means you can re-roll a part of a 2D6 roll, a D6 of it.
This is definitely a line in favor of allowing one of XD6 to be rerolled.
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Post by: rigeld2
Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules.
Deja Vu.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules.
Deja Vu.
I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.
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Post by: rigeld2
If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.
p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.
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Post by: McNinja
Wow.
The Chronometron states that a model can re-roll one of his D6 rolls per phase. That's ONE of his D6 ROLLS. The rule says nothing of 2d6 rolls, 3d6 rolls, or re-rolling part of anything.
I have no clue where you're getting anything else. In no way does the wording of the rule in the codex even begin to indicate that you are capable of re-rolling part of anything. The only thing you can re-roll is a single D6 roll.
Not a 2d6 roll. See how it has a 2 in front of the d6? That alone should clue anyone in to the fact that rolling a D6 and rolling 2d6 are different things. Besides that, the BRB very, VERY clearly states that unless a rule specifically states you are allowed re-roll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you cannot re-roll part of anything. Does the Chronometron allow part of a 2d6 to be re-rolled? No. No it does not. All it says is that the Harbinger of Eternity or his unit can re-roll any of his D6 rolls. Again, it says nothing of 2d6 rolls, part of 2d6 rolls, or anything of the sort. Until it does, you can only re-roll single D6 roll, as the Chronometron does not specify re-rolling part of 2d6 or 2d6 rolls.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Again - this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "specific" means in a ruleset.
When you are told that it must specifically allow you to reroll 1D6 of a 2+D6 roll, that means it has to EXPLICITLY tell you that you can reroll a part of the 2D6
Being told you can reroll a D6 roll does not specify this.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:Again - this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "specific" means in a ruleset.
When you are told that it must specifically allow you to reroll 1D6 of a 2+D6 roll, that means it has to EXPLICITLY tell you that you can reroll a part of the 2D6
Being told you can reroll a D6 roll does not specify this.
If it said "the rule must explicitly specify the number of dice rolled and the number of dice to reroll, else reroll all" then yes. It does not.
The p.2 BRB rule says you must specify. Specifying the number of dice (one) or specifying the number of dice and the original number of dice (one out of two) are both "specifying" a different number than the original.
You don't get to decide what "otherwise specified" means and arbitrarily decide "not different enough" when the only requirement is that something different than the original roll must be stated in the rule.
This is a matter of logic. B and C are both specifically different than A, you can't just decide only C is different.
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Post by: Katfish!
Not to contribute so little, but is there anything in 40k currently that lets us just reroll one dice as Nemesor wants to? just to see if we can find the language that would entail.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.
Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules
As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.
Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules
As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion
The restriction is that when rolling 2D6, or 3D6, chronometron specifies re-roll 1D6. Your understanding of "Specify" is your personal interpretation that you choose to impose on this discussion. You're reading requirements into the word "specify" that simply are not there regarding English language and how it is used to interpret these rules.
Here's an example ." Always roll 2D6 or 3D6 unless specified otherwise. "
Example rule: "Roll 1d6."
You see, that's "specifying otherwise". No need to mention what day it was, what the original roll was, or anything else. It still qualifies as "specifically otherwise".
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Post by: Happyjew
Correction. Chronometron tells you to re-roll 1 1d6 roll.
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Post by: McNinja
Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome. Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion The restriction is that when rolling 2D6, or 3D6, chronometron specifies re-roll 1D6. Your understanding of "Specify" is your personal interpretation that you choose to impose on this discussion. You're reading requirements into the word "specify" that simply are not there regarding English language and how it is used to interpret these rules. Here's an example ." Always roll 2D6 or 3D6 unless specified otherwise. " Example rule: "Roll 1d6." You see, that's "specifying otherwise". No need to mention what day it was, what the original roll was, or anything else. It still qualifies as "specifically otherwise".
Seriously? That is not an example in any way. The chronometron specifies re-rolling a D6 roll. Until the codex magically changes its wording to say "the harbinger of eternity or his unit can re-roll any of his D6 rolls or part of any 2d6 or 3d6 rolls" you cannot re-roll part of anything, and he may only re-roll rolls that cosisted of only one D6, such as difficult terrain, to wound, to hit, etc. Read my earlier posts. I explained all of this. See that 2 in front of the d6? That should tip you off that the rolls are in fact different and the CHronometron only allows re-rolls of die where you only rolled one to begin with. Its funny how you seem to be the only one here defending your claim, as everyone, literally everyone else has told you in several ways why you are wrong. We've said how a rule must SPECIFICALLY STATE that you may re-roll part of a 2d6 or more roll. As in, that wording (may the re-roll of one die/part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll) must be in the rule. There is no such wording in the Chronometron wargear description. Perhaps maybe you're wrong? Have you considered that?
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
McNinja wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.
Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules
As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion
The restriction is that when rolling 2D6, or 3D6, chronometron specifies re-roll 1D6. Your understanding of "Specify" is your personal interpretation that you choose to impose on this discussion. You're reading requirements into the word "specify" that simply are not there regarding English language and how it is used to interpret these rules.
Here's an example ." Always roll 2D6 or 3D6 unless specified otherwise. "
Example rule: "Roll 1d6."
You see, that's "specifying otherwise". No need to mention what day it was, what the original roll was, or anything else. It still qualifies as "specifically otherwise".
Seriously? That is not an example in any way. The chronometron specifies re-rolling a D6 roll. Until the codex magically changes its wording to say "the harbinger of eternity or his unit can re-roll any of his D6 rolls or part of any 2d6 or 3d6 rolls" you cannot re-roll part of anything, and he may only re-roll rolls that cosisted of only one D6, such as difficult terrain, to wound, to hit, etc. Read my earlier posts. I explained all of this. See that 2 in front of the d6? That should tip you off that the rolls are in fact different and the CHronometron only allows re-rolls of die where you only rolled one to begin with.
Its funny how you seem to be the only one here defending your claim, as everyone, literally everyone else has told you in several ways why you are wrong. We've said how a rule must SPECIFICALLY STATE that you may re-roll part of a 2d6 or more roll. As in, that wording (may the re-roll of one die/part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll) must be in the rule. There is no such wording in the Chronometron wargear description. Perhaps maybe you're wrong? Have you considered that?
The p2 BRB rule does not require "part of any 2d6 and 3d6 and 4d6 rolls" or any such nonsense - the rules will never over explain to such a detail. It only requires specifying something other than the original role. I.E. 1D6 is specifically not 2D6. Do you understand that "more specific" and "less specific" are both "specific"?
Surely your entire argument doesn't hinge entirely on that single sentence on page 2 that requires you to arbitrarily decide that the chronometron rule is "not specific enough". Could you please offer an example of where this is used besides Wolf Standard (because it is not a valid example for reasons already stated in this thread)?
2D6 by definition is two 1D6 rolls, of which the chronometron specifically allows you to re-roll one 1D6.
There is no supporting evidence for you claim and others here insisting that "specific" has a special meaning that they have decided it means.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
WE have all the evidence we need, over 5 pages.
Its just you arguing against, by not understanding what specify means in this context
In this context you have to specify you can reroll part of a 2D6 roll, otherwise the rule has no meaning - anyone who can reroll a dice can reroll part of a leadership test. So in your definition they wrote a useless rule
Or, for a change, admit you're wrong and move on.
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Post by: Cryage
I wonder if GW gets some of these questions proposed for an FAQ and they just facepalm
I mean it seems very self explanatory, reroll ONE 1D6 per phase
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Post by: Mannahnin
Nemesor Dave wrote:2D6 by definition is two 1D6 rolls, of which the chronometron specifically allows you to re-roll one 1D6.
These are both false statements. The first is disproved by page 2 and the Space Wolf FAQ. The second is disproved by reading the Chronometron entry.
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Post by: McNinja
Nemesor Dave wrote:
The p2 BRB rule does not require "part of any 2d6 and 3d6 and 4d6 rolls" or any such nonsense - the rules will never over explain to such a detail. It only requires specifying something other than the original roll. I.E. 1D6 is specifically not 2D6. Do you understand that "more specific" and "less specific" are both "specific"?
Yeah. It's specifically NOT 2d6 because the rule SAYS D6 ROLL.
Nemesor Dave wrote:
Surely your entire argument doesn't hinge entirely on that single sentence on page 2 that requires you to arbitrarily decide that the chronometron rule is "not specific enough". Could you please offer an example of where this is used besides Wolf Standard (because it is not a valid example for reasons already stated in this thread)?
Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.
Nemesor Dave wrote:
2D6 by definition is two 1D6 rolls, of which the chronometron specifically allows you to re-roll one 1D6.
Yeah, two 1d6 rolls, taken together AS ONE ROLL.
Nemesor Dave wrote:
There is no supporting evidence for you claim and others here insisting that "specific" has a special meaning that they have decided it means.
spe·cif· ic [spi-sif-ik]
adjective
1.
having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite: to state one's specific purpose.
2.
specified, precise, or particular: a specific sum of money.
3.
peculiar or proper to somebody or something, as qualities, characteristics, effects, etc.: His specific problems got him into trouble.
4.
of a special or particular kind.
5.
concerned specifically with the item or subject named (used in combination): The Secretary addressed himself to crop-specific problems.
That is the definition of specific everyone here knows and uses. In order for the re-roll of part of a 2d6 or 3d6 to be re-rolled, a rule must specifically (explicitly) state that this is possible. The wording on the Chronometron has no such wording. The rule says A (meaning 1) 1D6 ROLL. You can re-roll anything you only rolled 1d6 for in the first place.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.
Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.
I post mostly in Necron threads because I am familiar with the codex and rules, not because I need permission to play any particular way.
YMDC is supposed to be about RAW. Unless someone can post a new take on this or an additional rule regarding rerolls and the number of dice, I don't care to argue my point any further.
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Post by: rigeld2
Your "point" has been proven wrong, by RAW. There's nothing to argue.
49909
Post by: Luide
Nemesor Dave wrote:
There is no supporting evidence for you claim and others here insisting that "specific" has a special meaning that they have decided it means.
Actually, there is. You just don't want to accept it, and therefore ignore it. It has been linked to you multiple times in the Sweeping Advance thread for example.
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"
Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"]If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."
Like you can see, here they have specifically stated that GK are not destroyed in sweeping advance even when caught.
Lets look how the rules for re-rolling 2D6 are
Brb pg2
"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"
So unless special rule/wargear has wording that says something like "when re-rerolling 2d6 roll, you're allowed to choose which dice to reroll", you're not allowed to do that. ATSKNF is proof of that.
Note that SA only used as example what "unless specifically stated" means, please don't bring EL vs SA to this thread.
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Post by: McNinja
Nemesor Dave wrote:McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.
Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.
I post mostly in Necron threads because I am familiar with the codex and rules, not because I need permission to play any particular way.
YMDC is supposed to be about RAW. Unless someone can post a new take on this or an additional rule regarding rerolls and the number of dice, I don't care to argue my point any further.
It is about RAW. RAW of the Chronometron entry makes no indication of being able to roll part of anything, just single D6 rolls.
It's true you don't need out permission to play any specific way. What you do need, however, is your opponents permission to play the Chronometron as you want.
However, this is not an argument about who has permission for what. This is an argument over what RAW says, and so far, you've kept saying the same thing over and over while I and a few other people have pointed out how it is incorrect. If you really do not want to continue this discussion, don't. But keep in mind that the RAW are RAW, and I doubt many people agree with your assertion of the rules for the Chronometron. It will be entirely up to your opponents and whether or not they allow you to start re-rolling part of your Leadership/morale/pinning tests or Scatter rolls.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Exactly. You can use Chonometron on a d6 roll. Is a LD check or scatter roll "a d6 roll"? No, it clearly is not.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Mannahnin wrote:Exactly. You can use Chonometron on a d6 roll. Is a LD check or scatter roll "a d6 roll"? No, it clearly is not.
This. And because it is not a D6 roll, you need something that can specifically allow you to reroll part of the 2D6 roll by saying it can reroll part of a D6 roll. If it doesnt say it can, it cannot - because that is what specific means.
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Post by: azazel the cat
You do realize that Nemesor Dave is trolling you, don't you?
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Likely, however the Mods dont think he is (presumably) and there is the danger someone reading may think he has a valid argument - its more preventing other people from making mistakes
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Post by: foolishmortal
Nemesor Dave wrote:McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.
Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.
I strongly encourage independent, critical, skepticism. For the most part, I think Nem Dave has conducted himself well in this thread. He has been accused of stupidity, stubbornness and trolling. He has responded for the most part with rules based arguments and logic in the face of personal attacks. If the NO position is so obviously correct, people should have little trouble making it perfectly clear. If the NO position is not ironclad and people are resorting to personal attacks to browbeat and bully a descanting voice into agreement, I am saddened by that. Nem Dave maybe wrong (also debatable) but at least he is arguing correctly.
Happyjew wrote:Xd6 means "roll x number of dice and add them together." The result of any one of those dice affect the over all roll.
In some cases you might roll multiple d6's simultaneously (such as when shooting). In that case you roll X d6. Each d6 affects only itself. Not the overall total. When you have permission to re-roll a d6 (aka 1d6), it must be used on a 1d6 roll.
IIRC, the space wolves faq refers to re-rolling a "result" of a 1. As in end result or final outcome of the aggregate dice. The chronometron may not have the same implication.
Happyjew wrote:Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll.
I brought it up much earlier in the conversation, but I don't see your response answering the question. Case in point, let's say I'm playing Eldar and roll 3d6 on a psychic test. If I roll 3 1s, did I roll double ones? (if 2d6 is so clearly different than 3d6, then 3 ones ought to be triple ones and not count as double ones) If yes, then I am looking at the individual rolls as d6s before aggregating them. If no, then the language in perils of the warp is not applicable to this debate. Either way there is an unanswered question.
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules. Deja Vu.
I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.
I agree, I would like to see this clarified. There was a widespread public opinion earlier in the SA vs EL debate that Destroyed and Wiped out were clearly different RAW and not synonymous in the rules. That opinion changed, IMO mostly due to people not accepting being bullied in a rules discussion.
If the NO position truly thinks the case is clear cut and that Nem Dave is only arguing out of stubbornness, I invite you to consider that you are being equally stubborn. High minded ideals like "for the public good" may be spoken with a straight face by both sides, but in the end, it seems to be the last word that is being fought over, not the truth.
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Post by: Happyjew
foolishmortal wrote:Case in point, let's say I'm playing Eldar and roll 3d6 on a psychic test. If I roll 3 1s, did I roll double ones? (if 2d6 is so clearly different than 3d6, then 3 ones ought to be triple ones and not count as double ones) If yes, then I am looking at the individual rolls as d6s before aggregating them. If no, then the language in perils of the warp is not applicable to this debate. Either way there is an unanswered question.
And then per the rules (I'm assuming you rolled the 3 dice per your wargear), you then drop the highest (in this case "1") and are left with, oh my, double 1's.
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Post by: McNinja
foolishmortal wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.
Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.
I strongly encourage independent, critical, skepticism. For the most part, I think Nem Dave has conducted himself well in this thread. He has been accused of stupidity, stubbornness and trolling. He has responded for the most part with rules based arguments and logic in the face of personal attacks. If the NO position is so obviously correct, people should have little trouble making it perfectly clear. If the NO position is not ironclad and people are resorting to personal attacks to browbeat and bully a descanting voice into agreement, I am saddened by that. Nem Dave maybe wrong (also debatable) but at least he is arguing correctly.
He has, but that still doesn't change the fact that he isn't right, has been shown he isn't right, and still thinks he is. I don't know if he's gonna keep posting in this thread, but anything he does does't change the wording for the Chronometron.
In the end, it is really up to him and his opponent to settle this argument if it ever comes up in a game.
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Post by: rigeld2
foolishmortal wrote:He has responded for the most part with rules based arguments and logic in the face of personal attacks. If the NO position is so obviously correct, people should have little trouble making it perfectly clear. If the NO position is not ironclad and people are resorting to personal attacks to browbeat and bully a descanting voice into agreement, I am saddened by that. Nem Dave maybe wrong (also debatable) but at least he is arguing correctly.
You obviously haven't read the entire thread. I was arguing very politely, even though I was essentially repeating myself. And all I got in return was a refusal to accept the facts.
Happyjew wrote:Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll.
I brought it up much earlier in the conversation, but I don't see your response answering the question. Case in point, let's say I'm playing Eldar and roll 3d6 on a psychic test. If I roll 3 1s, did I roll double ones? (if 2d6 is so clearly different than 3d6, then 3 ones ought to be triple ones and not count as double ones) If yes, then I am looking at the individual rolls as d6s before aggregating them. If no, then the language in perils of the warp is not applicable to this debate. Either way there is an unanswered question.
The Eldar abilities state to look at the 2 highest (or lowest) dice when considering success and Perils.
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules. Deja Vu.
I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.
I agree, I would like to see this clarified. There was a widespread public opinion earlier in the SA vs EL debate that Destroyed and Wiped out were clearly different RAW and not synonymous in the rules. That opinion changed, IMO mostly due to people not accepting being bullied in a rules discussion.
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.
p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.
Perhaps you should read the entire thread before asking for clarification. It's at the top of the 5th page.
If the NO position truly thinks the case is clear cut and that Nem Dave is only arguing out of stubbornness, I invite you to consider that you are being equally stubborn. High minded ideals like "for the public good" may be spoken with a straight face by both sides, but in the end, it seems to be the last word that is being fought over, not the truth.
Except we've presented the truth. And are getting nothing but fingers in ears "nonononononono". Or that's what it seems like.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
Happyjew wrote:And then per the rules (I'm assuming you rolled the 3 dice per your wargear), you then drop the highest (in this case "1") and are left with, oh my, double 1's.
If this is the case than why does the Perils of the Warp rule refer to double 1s and/or 6s? If all that is looked at is the final result of 2 or 12, then why does the rule refer to double 1s or 6s?
I ask because great weight has been given by the NO position to the distinction between d6 + d6 and 2d6. The perils of the warp rule seems show that a 2d6 result is made up of d6 + d6. If that is the case then I would like clarification on why the chronometron cannot be used to re-roll one of them. I see why it cannot be used to re-roll both of them. The chronometron rule does not grant specific permission to do so ( IMO). What I don't see is a RAW restriction on re-rolling a d6 roll.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Because on page 2 if you're going to re-roll any of the dice in a 2d6 roll you must re-roll both.
Read. The. Thread.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
Page 2, and the Space Wolf FAQ, say that a 2d6 roll is a different thing from a d6 roll, and you cannot consider the two component dice in a 2d6 roll separately.
49408
Post by: McNinja
foolishmortal wrote:Happyjew wrote:And then per the rules (I'm assuming you rolled the 3 dice per your wargear), you then drop the highest (in this case "1") and are left with, oh my, double 1's.
If this is the case than why does the Perils of the Warp rule refer to double 1s and/or 6s? If all that is looked at is the final result of 2 or 12, then why does the rule refer to double 1s or 6s?
I ask because great weight has been given by the NO position to the distinction between d6 + d6 and 2d6. The perils of the warp rule seems show that a 2d6 result is made up of d6 + d6. If that is the case then I would like clarification on why the chronometron cannot be used to re-roll one of them. I see why it cannot be used to re-roll both of them. The chronometron rule does not grant specific permission to do so ( IMO). What I don't see is a RAW restriction on re-rolling a d6 roll.
the fact that two d6s are rolled does not change the fact that the rolls are entirely different things, and A d6 roll does not mean "whenever you roll anything with a d6 in it." it means a roll that is comprised of only 1 single d6.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
rigeld2 wrote:You obviously haven't read the entire thread. I was arguing very politely, even though I was essentially repeating myself. And all I got in return was a refusal to accept the facts.
I have read the entire thread. I posted on this thread before you. I did not say that you (rigeld2) did not argue politely. I did not say that nem dave always argued with logic and rules. I spoke of general trends in the discussion. In general, I like you (rigeld2) and your general style. I have found you to be clear thinker and polite. You (rigeld2) tend to argue the rules and state a logical case. You (rigeld2) are human, thus you are either in possession of free will or something so ineffable as to be identical for our purposes. This is a good thing ( IMO) but it does mean that even perfect knowledge of past actions is not a guarantee of future performance. IMO, again, this is also a good thing.
When you say "You obviously haven't read the entire thread" I see 'you clearly disagree with me but rather than debate the point or let it pass, I will make a blanket dismissal of your entire argument'.
rigeld2 wrote:The Eldar abilities state to look at the 2 highest (or lowest) dice when considering success and Perils.
Yes, and before you look at the final result (2-12) of that 2d6 roll, it seems you must also consider each die individually for the purposes of perils of the warp. It is at this stage that I believe Nem Dave would want to use the chronometron.
rigeld2 wrote:Perhaps you should read the entire thread before asking for clarification. It's at the top of the 5th page.
Again, this is a rude dismissal. I did read the top of the fifth page. It raised more questions for me than it answered. Case in point, is a modified d6 roll re-rollable with a chronometron? Is d6+1 so different from a d6 roll as to no longer fall under the chronometron rules?
rigeld2 wrote: And are getting nothing but fingers in ears "nonononononono". Or that's what it seems like.
I can see how one might see this. If you want to dismiss my questions out of hand, I would understand that. I wouldn't appreciate it, but I would understand it.
If you want to ignore my posts, I would understand that. Honestly, I find that to be the best policy when confronted with the truly irrational.
I would prefer to examine the RAW for a consistent interpretation. Sometimes I have the time and inclination to do so rigorously. I try to do so carefully, but I am human, thus sometimes emotional and fallible. I apologize if this has been the case here. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mannahnin wrote:Page 2, and the Space Wolf FAQ, say that a 2d6 roll is a different thing from a d6 roll, and you cannot consider the two component dice in a 2d6 roll separately.
The space wolves faq says
"Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually."
I agree that the result of the leadership test can never be 1.
I disagree with the assumption that the above language implies that the result of a 2 on a leadership test is not because of two 1s on d6s.
p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.
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Post by: rigeld2
Yes, that is what the pro position wants to do.
The quote you posted says that they cannot do that.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.
The rules for the Chronometron do not contain an explicit statement that you may re-roll one die from a 2d6 roll.
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Post by: Happyjew
From what I understand (based on what was posted in this thread), the chronometron's wording is "may re-roll any of the units d6 rolls.". This tells us that the roll must be a d6 roll, i.e. 1d6. This is very very specific on the type of roll that it affects. Anytime you roll multiple dice and add the result together, you are not making a d6 roll, you are making an Xd6 roll (where X>1). For example, for characteristic tests (except Ld), we are told to "roll a D6". For rolling to hit we are told to "roll a d6 for each [attack]." For rolling to wound, we are told to "roll a D6." Etc. Each one of these is a D6 roll. For Ld, we are told to "roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier)." For scatter we are told to "roll the scatter dice and 2d6 to see where the [marker] lands." Both of these are a 2d6 roll. NOT a D6 roll.
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Post by: rigeld2
foolishmortal wrote:When you say "You obviously haven't read the entire thread" I see 'you clearly disagree with me but rather than debate the point or let it pass, I will make a blanket dismissal of your entire argument'.
Yes, because clearly that's what I did.
rigeld2 wrote:The Eldar abilities state to look at the 2 highest (or lowest) dice when considering success and Perils.
Yes, and before you look at the final result (2-12) of that 2d6 roll, it seems you must also consider each die individually for the purposes of perils of the warp. It is at this stage that I believe Nem Dave would want to use the chronometron.
It's still a 2d6 (or more) roll. You can't try and re-roll part of a 2d6 roll.
rigeld2 wrote:Perhaps you should read the entire thread before asking for clarification. It's at the top of the 5th page.
Again, this is a rude dismissal. I did read the top of the fifth page. It raised more questions for me than it answered. Case in point, is a modified d6 roll re-rollable with a chronometron? Is d6+1 so different from a d6 roll as to no longer fall under the chronometron rules?
No - Page 2 also talks about modified d6 rolls - they're still 1d6, just modified.
rigeld2 wrote: And are getting nothing but fingers in ears "nonononononono". Or that's what it seems like.
I can see how one might see this. If you want to dismiss my questions out of hand, I would understand that. I wouldn't appreciate it, but I would understand it.
If you want to ignore my posts, I would understand that. Honestly, I find that to be the best policy when confronted with the truly irrational.
I would prefer to examine the RAW for a consistent interpretation. Sometimes I have the time and inclination to do so rigorously. I try to do so carefully, but I am human, thus sometimes emotional and fallible. I apologize if this has been the case here.
I appreciate that you're trying to argue the pro side - but there's no basis for it. The facts have been presented multiple times. And there probably won't be anything new posted any time soon - just rewording of what has already been posted. Because one side relies on following the (relatively simple in this case) RAW, and the other side seems like they have their head in the sand ignoring how to read the black and white words on the page.
Please, I'm begging you - find some rules support for the other side.
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Post by: azazel the cat
Here's this entire thread in a nutshell:
Side A:
- Making a 2D6 roll is different than making 2x D6 rolls; the 2D6 roll is meant to carry a value in the range of 2 and 12, as opposed to making 2x D6 rolls, which is simply two rolls that each carry a value in the range of 1 and 6.
- Rolling multiple D6s at the same time is just to speed up the game, such as when multiple Marines shoot bolters. Technically each D6 should be rolled individually, but doing that would make 40k be boring to play, so nobody does this, at the suggestion of the BGB and common sense.
- Page 2 of the BGB states that if you are allowed to re-roll 2D6, then both dice rolled must be re-rolled. You cannot re-roll only one of the two dice from a 2D6 roll, unless explicitly stated so. This is where the cognitive dissonance takes place, because:
Side B:
- claims that the Chronometron allows you to re-roll one of the two dice in a 2D6 roll, because the wording of the Chronometron says that you may re-roll a D6.
- claims that a 2D6 = 2x D6
My Hardcore Rules Lawyering:
The wording of the Chronometron is NOT specific enough to meet the requirements to the aforementioned exception expressed on page 2 of the BGB. While the Chronometron does say that you can re-roll a D6, it does not explicitly state that you may re-roll a D6 that is part of a 2D6 roll. Since the premise that a 2D6 roll =/= 2x D6 rolls, the Chronometron cannot be used on instances of 2D6
34711
Post by: Katfish!
again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?
I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.
49909
Post by: Luide
Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?
I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.
I just did it, at previous page.
Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"
Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."
When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.
The rules for the Chronometron do not contain an explicit statement that you may re-roll one die from a 2d6 roll.
Foolishmortal has hit the nail on the head why Wolf Standard FAQ does not apply to this discussion.
That leaves the only argument over P2 of the BRB. I will use an example to show how chronometron IS specific. (specific enough is someones opinion and not part of RAW)
You say "I am going to buy two red apples unless you explicitly specify otherwise".
I say, "You may buy one red apple."
Would you claim I wasn't clear or specific enough about what you can buy? I specified the number of apples you may buy explicitly.
What you're expecting would be the equivalent of requiring me to say "You may buy one red apple if you were going to buy three, and if you were going to buy four, and if the store was close to you, and if you got there by motorbike." All these things are "more specific". But the only requirement from p.2 is "specify otherwise". Chronometron does this by saying you may re-roll "one D6."
For clarity, I want an answer to this using RAW. Fuzzying up the meaning of "specific" is not RAW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azazel the cat wrote:
The wording of the Chronometron is NOT specific enough to meet the requirements..
This is what you and many other are arguing. "Not specific enough". You don't get to arbitrarily decide what must be specified. The chronometron rule explicitly specifies only one D6 may be re-rolled. Any other requirement to be "more specific" is imagined and not in RAW.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
Your apple analogy doesn't work, because it lacks any comparison to the proper framework, and demonstrates that you are still operating under the falsehood that 2D6 = 2x 1D6. However, this is not the case. If you want a proper analogy, it should be more like this: You have $1 and want to buy a Twinkie, but Twinkies are sold in 2-packs and cost $2 per pack. Unless you can specifically find a single Twinkie, you have to pay for the 2-pack. Since you cannot afford the 2-pack, you cannot have a Twinkie. What you must remember is that 40k operates under a permissive ruleset. This means that you may not perform any action unless specified. That is, the answer to ever single question about "can I...?" is "no", unless there is a specific permission to do so. While the Chronometron allows you to re-roll a D6, the BRB states that re-rolls requiring 2D6 must be both-or-nothing unless specified otherwise. That is, the rule would have to explicitly state that you may re-roll a single die that is part of a 2D6 roll. Otherwise, the re-roll is relegated to the regular rules for 2D6 re-rolls, which is both-or-nothing. Also, I'm gonna nail this coffin shut here: "A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase." Necron codex, pg. 85 It does not say he may re-roll a D6. It says he may re-roll one of his D6 rolls. These semantics are supremely important here. Is a Leadership test a D6 roll? No. It is a 2D6 roll. Because again 2D6 =/= 2x D6 rolls. It is like saying you may re-take one of your school exams. That does not mean that you may re-do only a single page of one of your exams; it means you may re-do the entire exam. EDIT: clarity!
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
azazel the cat wrote:Your apple analogy doesn't work, because it lacks any comparison to the proper framework, and demonstrates that you are still operating under the falsehood that 2D6 = 2x 1D6.
Your belief that 2D6 is not 2 x 1D6. This has not been proven by RAW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
My example is showing that Chronometron "specifies otherwise". You don't refute this.
Your example is trying to show that 2D6 is a single roll and not two 1D6 rolls. This is not RAW.
Perhaps someone can think of a case that might clarify this. Any rules regarding "reroll 1's" where multiple dice are rolled. Reroll the highest, or other example where 1 dice is effected after two dice are rolled would show dice can be considered individually after rolling multiples.
43315
Post by: mrspadge
Nemesor Dave wrote:azazel the cat wrote:Your apple analogy doesn't work, because it lacks any comparison to the proper framework, and demonstrates that you are still operating under the falsehood that 2D6 = 2x 1D6.
Your belief that 2D6 is not 2 x 1D6. This has not been proven by RAW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
My example is showing that Chronometron "specifies otherwise". You don't refute this.
Your example is trying to show that 2D6 is a single roll and not two 1D6 rolls. This is not RAW.
Perhaps someone can think of a case that might clarify this. Any rules regarding "reroll 1's" where two dice are rolled. Reroll the highest, or other example where 1 dice is effected after two dice are rolled would show that 2D6 is two rolls of 1D6.
must admit i kinda skipped from page one to this page as everyone seemed to be arguing the same thing over and over but i thought i'd pose a question that should (in theory at least) answer the issue:
can someone post a RAW argument for a dice roll of multiple D6 being comprised of single D6 rolls added together?
can someone post a RAW argument that a " D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?
if there is any question of doubt to either of the statements then either you have not used RAW, quotes from specific codeci and the BRB or the arguement is invalid.
if neither arguement can be settled this way then i'd chop it up to being an obscure rule that needs to be house ruled before a game and negate the need for a 5+ page debate
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
mrspadge wrote:
must admit i kinda skipped from page one to this page as everyone seemed to be arguing the same thing over and over but i thought i'd pose a question that should (in theory at least) answer the issue:
can someone post a RAW argument for a dice roll of multiple D6 being comprised of single D6 rolls added together?
p2 from BRB "..so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together...". 2D6 = two 1D6 rolls, add them together.
mrspadge wrote:
can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?
No, there has been nothing posted.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Yep, ND is definitely trolling.
2D6 is not a 2x1D6 roll, as explicitly statd in the rulebook. THis is RAW
A chronometron does not specify that it can reroll one of a 2D6 roll, so it cannot according ot the rules for XD6 rolls. This is RAW
You are 100% wrong on every account.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, ND is definitely trolling.
2D6 is not a 2x1D6 roll, as explicitly statd in the rulebook. THis is RAW
A chronometron does not specify that it can reroll one of a 2D6 roll, so it cannot according ot the rules for XD6 rolls. This is RAW
You are 100% wrong on every account.
Stating your opinion does not make it RAW. You fail to support your statements in any way.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
Yeah, if 2D6 = 2x D6, then that would mean two marines can team up to hit a target that requires a 6. But they can't. It's that simple.
That's what this entire argument boils down to. Nemesor Dave believes that 2D6 = 2x D6
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
azazel the cat wrote:Yeah, if 2D6 = 2x D6, then that would mean two marines can team up to hit a target that requires a 6. But they can't. It's that simple.
That's what this entire argument boils down to. Nemesor Dave believes that 2D6 = 2x D6
Your marines comment is a "straw man" argument and completely misrepresents my position.
You hold two dice in your hand and roll them both. You may pick up only one, and re-roll it. It's not that hard to believe.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
I;'m not stating my opinion - i'm restating the rules that have been proven, over and over, in this thread
You dont havea single argument that hasnt been debunked, over and over and over. There is little point in proving you wrong for the 20th time as each time you plug your fingers in your ears and pretend it hasnt happened.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:I;'m not stating my opinion - i'm restating the rules that have been proven, over and over, in this thread
You dont havea single argument that hasnt been debunked, over and over and over. There is little point in proving you wrong for the 20th time as each time you plug your fingers in your ears and pretend it hasnt happened.
You're not restating any rules. Your post does not contain a quote to a single rule.
I have refuted your only argument (p2 of the BRB) where you decided that Chronometron is "not specific enough" for you. Yet It is quite "specific" about the number of dice to roll that is different from the original roll. You may still disagree, however your single argument has been refuted.
Can you even show a single example where a rule says as you're demanding "you may re-roll one D6 out of 2D6, 3D6, or 4D6"?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
I was restating the rules. Note the word "quote" did not appear there? Comprehension issue again I guess.
Stop making up quotes as well.
Oh, and "refute" has a specific meaning - something you have utterly and totally failed to meet. Try again.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:I was restating the rules. Note the word "quote" did not appear there? Comprehension issue again I guess.
Stop making up quotes as well.
Oh, and "refute" has a specific meaning - something you have utterly and totally failed to meet. Try again.
When there is a question that proves the opposite of what you are trying to claim, perhaps that is why you avoid the question.
Maybe you didn't notice: Can you even show a single example where a rule says as you're demanding "you may re-roll one D6 out of 2D6, 3D6, or 4D6"?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:Mannahnin wrote:p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.
The rules for the Chronometron do not contain an explicit statement that you may re-roll one die from a 2d6 roll.
Foolishmortal has hit the nail on the head why Wolf Standard FAQ does not apply to this discussion.
That leaves the only argument over P2 of the BRB. I will use an example to show how chronometron IS specific. (specific enough is someones opinion and not part of RAW)
You say "I am going to buy two red apples unless you explicitly specify otherwise".
I say, "You may buy one red apple."
Would you claim I wasn't clear or specific enough about what you can buy? I specified the number of apples you may buy explicitly.
No, you didn't. You didn't set a limit on apples to buy. Your statement changed *nothing* about what the person was going to buy already. It is not specific.
IF you tell me to buy one red apple, and I buy 10, have I met your requirements?
What you're expecting would be the equivalent of requiring me to say "You may buy one red apple if you were going to buy three, and if you were going to buy four, and if the store was close to you, and if you got there by motorbike." All these things are "more specific". But the only requirement from p.2 is "specify otherwise". Chronometron does this by saying you may re-roll "one D6."
No, but thanks for taking the argument out into the land of nowhere.
It would be the equivalent if saying "You may buy one red apple instead of the two or more you were going to buy."
Chrono says you may re-roll one d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is explicitly not 2 1d6 rolls, as we've proven - repeatedly.
Nemesor Dave wrote:
mrspadge wrote:
can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?
No, there has been nothing posted.
Really? Hmmm... I'd swear there was...
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.
p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.
Oh, there it is.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:
Chrono says you may re-roll one d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is explicitly not 2 1d6 rolls, as we've proven - repeatedly.
People keep claiming this - what proves a 2d6 roll is not two 1D6 rolls?
rigeld2 wrote:
Nemesor Dave wrote:
mrspadge wrote:
can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?
No, there has been nothing posted.
Really? Hmmm... I'd swear there was...
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.
p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.
Oh, there it is.
My mistake on this one on what he was asking. Yes, the wording one " D6 roll" can only be interpreted as meaning re-roll 1 dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
You say "I am going to buy two red apples unless you explicitly specify otherwise".
I say, "You may buy one red apple."
Would you claim I wasn't clear or specific enough about what you can buy? I specified the number of apples you may buy explicitly.
No, you didn't. You didn't set a limit on apples to buy. Your statement changed *nothing* about what the person was going to buy already. It is not specific.
IF you tell me to buy one red apple, and I buy 10, have I met your requirements?
.
1) You're required to roll two dice.
2) You must re-roll both, unless you have specific permission to re-roll a different number of dice.
3) You have permission to re-roll one dice.
This isn't specific? You're confused, that perhaps I meant you re-roll 10 dice?
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
It isnt specific TO THE SITUATION IN HAND, hence your constant misunderstanding of the word "specific" used in this context.
You are told that, unless your rule specifically states otherwise, you cannot reroll 1 of an XD6 roll. That means that you need to show your rule allows you to speciifcally reroll 1 of an XD6 roll, which requires the multiple-dice to be specifically mentioned - otherwise it is just a general rule and not specific
This has been gone over and over and over in this thread, phrased a dozen different ways, and you have yet to refute a single item. Your claim that "this is specific!!!!!" has been refuted. Your claim that a 2D6 roll is actually a 1D6 + 1D6 roll has been refuted.
You have nothing left. You have no arguments that have withstood anything more than a cursory dismissal. You are now simply hoping to break RAW so your necrons are more powerful.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt specific TO THE SITUATION IN HAND, hence your constant misunderstanding of the word "specific" used in this context.
You are told that, unless your rule specifically states otherwise, you cannot reroll 1 of an XD6 roll. That means that you need to show your rule allows you to speciifcally reroll 1 of an XD6 roll, which requires the multiple-dice to be specifically mentioned - otherwise it is just a general rule and not specific
This has been gone over and over and over in this thread, phrased a dozen different ways, and you have yet to refute a single item. Your claim that "this is specific!!!!!" has been refuted. Your claim that a 2D6 roll is actually a 1D6 + 1D6 roll has been refuted.
You have nothing left. You have no arguments that have withstood anything more than a cursory dismissal. You are now simply hoping to break RAW so your necrons are more powerful.
The p2. BRB statement is not making any comment on when you're allowed to re-roll or not. It is making a comment about how many dice you can re-roll when a re-roll is granted.
Example of "Not specific :"
1) A rule that says you may re-roll rolls to penetrate.
2) You shoot meltagun at a vehicle within 6".
Here it is not specified, so you must re-roll 2D6. See - Not Specific.
Example of "Specific".
1) You roll 2D6 for a leadership test.
2) Chronometron allows you to re-roll one D6.
Here is specific, you may only re-roll 1D6, not both. It is explicitly specific.
Did I miss somewhere your answer to 'Can you even show a single example where a rule says as you're demanding "you may re-roll one D6 out of 2D6, 3D6, or 4D6"'?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
One D6 *of a multiple D6 roll* would be specific.
Otherwise it is about as generic a reroll as you can possibly get -t he other examples you gave are actually more specific than the chronometron.
General: You may reroll 1D6
Specific: If you want to reroll part of a 2D6 roll, you must specify you can
General: I can try to rescue a unit by passing a 5+ roll at the end of the phase
Specific: if you want to rescue the unit from SA your rule must specify that it can owrk against SA
Do I have to show an example, or can i just (as has already been done) show that the chrono doesnt meet the requirements of the rule? Yep, I can do that. Check. Apparently your false dichotomy is just that.
FOr example - if ATSKNF not exist it wouldnt suddenly mean EL worked against Sweeping Advance. Again, this is really basic logic here....
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:One D6 *of a multiple D6 roll* would be specific.
Otherwise it is about as generic a reroll as you can possibly get -t he other examples you gave are actually more specific than the chronometron.
General: You may reroll 1D6
Specific: If you want to reroll part of a 2D6 roll, you must specify you can
General: I can try to rescue a unit by passing a 5+ roll at the end of the phase
Specific: if you want to rescue the unit from SA your rule must specify that it can owrk against SA
Do I have to show an example, or can i just (as has already been done) show that the chrono doesnt meet the requirements of the rule? Yep, I can do that. Check. Apparently your false dichotomy is just that.
FOr example - if ATSKNF not exist it wouldnt suddenly mean EL worked against Sweeping Advance. Again, this is really basic logic here....
You keep trying to bring Sweeping Advance into this but they are not the same.
Sweeping Advance requires a rule to specifically exempt your unit from the effects of sweeping advance. The exemption rule must mention "Sweeping Advance" such as ATSKNF. I never disagreed with this.
p. 2 - Any re-rolls require you to re-roll all dice, unless a rule specifically allows you to reroll a different number of dice like Chronometron where it states "re-roll one".
Do you have any examples of a rule that says "one D6 *of a multiple D6 roll*"? The answer is clearly no.
Sweeping Advance - "Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage". "At this stage" requires a rule to mention it can save a unit during sweeping advance. (not at the end of the phase like EL).
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!
Edit for clarity
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Chrono says you may re-roll one d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is explicitly not 2 1d6 rolls, as we've proven - repeatedly.
People keep claiming this - what proves a 2d6 roll is not two 1D6 rolls?
BRB pg2 wrote:
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on
Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.
a d6 roll is explicitly different from a 2d6 roll. A d6 roll is a specific thing, a 2d6 roll is another specific thing.
1) You're required to roll two dice.
2) You must re-roll both, unless you have specific permission to re-roll a different number of dice.
3) You have permission to re-roll one dice.
This isn't specific? You're confused, that perhaps I meant you re-roll 10 dice?
You're misstating 2. You must re-roll both unless you have explicit specific permission otherwise. Does the Chrono mention, explicitly, re-rolling one out of a set?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
It requires you to reroll all dice of a multiple D6 roll, unless the rule specifically says otherwise - to whit you have to be able to reroll one dice from a multiple D6 roll in your rule
Does chrono say that? No! Guess that means it cannot, because it does not specify that it can. Shucks.
You have a general allowance: you may reroll a single D6 roll
This is not the same as a 2D6 (+) roll, as proven by the rules - and which you pretend doesnt exist. This is also not the same as being allowed to reroll part of a 2D6 (+) roll, because it does not specify that it can reroll part of a 2D6 (+) roll
And, again - examples are not required to prove you wrong, as has been proven over these last 6 pages. The example of SA was to show you that the non-existence of an example of a rule meeting the specification requirements of another rule (ATSKNF as an example of a rule specifying it works against SA) doesnt suddenly make another rule meet the specification requirements (chronometron not meeting the specification requirement to reroll a 2D6 (+) roll) and so doesnt actually do your argument any benefits. At best it is neutral - it doesnt affect either side.
You just have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "specific" and how it applies to rulesets, and until you realise that you will always be in the wrong in discussions like this.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!
Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)
Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!
Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)
Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.
Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."
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Post by: kirsanth
Nemesor Dave wrote:Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."
It still says re-roll one roll. Half of a roll is not explicitly mentioned in that. This wins: rigeld2 wrote:Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!
Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)
Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.
Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."
No, it's not.
It's allowing a re-roll of a d6 roll. We've established that a d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
Where is the explicit specific allowance to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Remember the example from sweeping advance (which is why it's relevant no matter how much you don't want it to be).
It needs to mention the rule it's allowing you to bypass.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!
Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)
Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.
Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."
No, it's not.
It's allowing a re-roll of a d6 roll. We've established that a d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
Where is the explicit specific allowance to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Remember the example from sweeping advance (which is why it's relevant no matter how much you don't want it to be).
It needs to mention the rule it's allowing you to bypass.
One last time
General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.
Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.
The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:
One last time
General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.
Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.
The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.
Use the entire rule please.
Re-roll one d6 roll. Is a 2d6 roll a d6 roll?
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Post by: Happyjew
If Chronometron said "you may re-roll a d6" you would have an argument. It doesn't. It says "you may re-roll a single d6 roll. A very very important distinction. I pointed out examples where the rules specify to make a D6 roll. I pointed out examples where the rule specifies to make a 2D6 roll. However, you are clinging to your interpretation that a D6 roll is the same as a 2d6 roll (BTW, a 2xd6 roll would give you a result of [2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12] which is NOT the same as 2d6.).
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:
One last time
General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.
Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.
The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.
Use the entire rule please.
Re-roll one d6 roll. Is a 2d6 roll a d6 roll?
2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.
If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.
If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.
At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.
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Post by: kirsanth
So it lets you re-roll d3 as well then.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.
If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.
If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.
At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.
Page 2. The concept of re-rolling both dice means it's one thing.
Also, you're ignoring the fact that Chrono says "a d6 roll" not, "a d6."
You might have a point if it was the latter. Since it's not, you don't. A d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
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Post by: kirsanth
Nemesor Dave wrote:If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.
This is true, except for the stated "and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice", which, although generally true deliberately tries to ignore the fact that there are exceptions to rules that DO call out specific parts of any action. There are things that tell you to roll multiple dice and to look for individual results. Those are stated as such because normally you do not. A 3D6 roll is not three rolls, despite the fact that you are rolling three dice - simultaneously.
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Post by: Happyjew
OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!
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Post by: kirsanth
Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!
To be fair, most of us have done that in this thread at some point.
It is kind of hard not to with the actual answer in black and white.
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Post by: rigeld2
Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!
Yeah, as I said earlier to foolishmortal, all we're doing is re-wording what has already been said... Not trying to claim what I've said is unique.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.
If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.
If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.
At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.
Page 2. The concept of re-rolling both dice means it's one thing.
Also, you're ignoring the fact that Chrono says "a d6 roll" not, "a d6."
You might have a point if it was the latter. Since it's not, you don't. A d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
This doesn't change anything.
If a 2D6 roll is two 1D6 rolls then I am right.
If a 2D6 roll is one roll (even though it is two dice) then you are right.
There is no rule stating categories of dice. No rule states anything like, you get a 1D6 roll and a 3D6 roll. It will only ever say 4D6. 4D6 is just the number of 1D6 rolls you get.
Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice. A 3D6 roll is three 1D6 rolls. It allows you to re-roll one of those.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice. A 3D6 roll is three 1D6 rolls. It allows you to re-roll one of those.
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
We know that a d6 is the same thing as 1d6.
So it allows you to re-roll a 1d6 roll.
A 3d6 roll is a 3d6 roll - which is separate and distinct from a 1d6 roll.
You still don't have explicit specific permission in Chrono to re-roll part of a 2 or 3d6 roll.
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Post by: Happyjew
But a 2d6 roll is not 2 1d6 rolls.
2d6 = [2-12]
Two 1d6 = [1-6, 1-6]
Two completely different answers.
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Post by: McNinja
Nemesor Dave wrote:
2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.
If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.
If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.
Lets go over the wording of the Chronometron: "The HoE or his unit can re-roll any of his d6 rolls." d6 rolls. Not 2d6 rolls. This entire argument is pointless because it says d6 roll. Not 2d6 roll. Not part of a 3d6 roll. d6 roll. When you roll 2d6, how many dice do you roll? 2. You roll 2 dice in a 2d6 roll. Not one. Two.
Two dice rolled together. 2d6 roll.
One dice. d6 roll.
Two dice rolled at the same time is a 2d6 roll. One die rolled is a d6 roll. It doesn't matter how many dice a 2d6 roll is comprised of, the fact is you rolled 2 dice to begin with, which makes it a 2d6 roll. The Chrono says you ma re-roll a d6 roll. Something you rolled only one die for in the first place. You cannot re-roll part of a 2d6 roll because you rolled more than one dice at once. Because you rolled more than once die to begin with.
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Post by: Katfish!
Luide wrote:Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?
I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.
I just did it, at previous page.
Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"
Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."
When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).
That is not an example of being allowed to reroll a d6 in a multid6 scenario. I want to see what meets the standard for that. Or did you just want to tell me I'm wrong before reading my whole post?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
kirsanth wrote:Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!
To be fair, most of us have done that in this thread at some point.
It is kind of hard not to with the actual answer in black and white.

At least 5 times here.... when someone wont read whats in front of them, despite numerous explanations, and instead comes up with an entirely opposite conclusion, theyre either trolling or have such a different understanding of how you parse a sentence that you're never going to agree.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
rigeld2 wrote:
BRB pg2 wrote:
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on
Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.
a d6 roll is explicitly different from a 2d6 roll. A d6 roll is a specific thing, a 2d6 roll is another specific thing.
I would think that "and so on" and "etc" are equivalent, and the inclusion of "and so on" indicates that the series progresses infinitely in the same manner. Right?
Back on topic: Dave, just because there doesn't exist a rule which states "You may reroll one die of a multiple-dice roll" doesn't mean that isn't the requirement; it might just mean that there aren't any rules which meet the requirement. You can't use that as evidence one way or another. A lack of precedent is not the same as a precedent for the opposite interpretation.
What has been done, however, is to present parallel precedent; precedent for something which is phrased in exactly the same way, and has the same effects. Sweeping Advance says that you have to "specifically" state that a rule works to counter it in order to counter it. ATSKNF, the only rule which currently counters Sweeping Advance, mentions the rule by name and tells the player exactly what occurs instead. It is reasonable to conclude that this is the standard of specificity which 40k uses.
The rule we're discussing has exactly the same wording as Sweeping Advance; a rule which counters it must "specifically" state that it does so. The precedent of Sweeping Advance indicates that in order to counter a rule written in this manner, a special rule must mention the rule in question by name, and tell the player what effect replaces the usual effect. The Chronometron does not meet that standard of specificity.
Now; this argument is NOT a logical necessity. It doesn't present a 100% airtight, tautological case; rather it's an argument by precedent. Since there are reasonably legitimate points on both sides, in the absence of clarification, we look to see how this issue has been resolved somewhere else in the ruleset; and we find that in a very similar case, it was resolved in one particular way. It is reasonable, then, to conclude that this parallel case should be resolved in the same way.
The argument you are making counters precedent; that is, exactly the same basic reasoning could be used to argue that ATSKNF would ignore Sweeping Advance even if the part of the rule which begins "If caught in a sweeping advance" did not exist. That isn't true; and since it isn't true in that parallel case, it's reasonable to conclude by analogy that it also isn't true in this case.
Your argument will have much more validity if at some time in a future a special rule is created which does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, but is later FAQed to counteract it. At that point, you could legitimately claim that precedent on this issue goes both ways. Since no such rule exists, however, there's only one precedent for what is meant by "specifically" counteracting a rule; and the Chronometron does not meet that standard.
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Post by: Luide
Katfish! wrote:Luide wrote:Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?
I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.
I just did it, at previous page.
Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"
Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."
When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).
That is not an example of being allowed to reroll a d6 in a multid6 scenario. I want to see what meets the standard for that. Or did you just want to tell me I'm wrong before reading my whole post?
Because I'm pretty sure there isn't a special rule or wargear that allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/ 3d6 roll. I'm also pretty sure that if such existed, it would have been found already and presented in this thread.
But it doesn't matter, we just need to look for other sources to see what specific means (=establishing baseline) in the context of 40k rules. First being dictionary, second being any SM codex. Both being (unsurprisingly) in agreement.
But do you really still think, considering all evidence to contrary ( ATSKNF and SA for example) that Chronometron explicitly allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/ 3d6 roll?
It can be read to give implicit permission, with that I agree. But pg2 requires explicit permission, which is definitely not given.
.
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Post by: rigeld2
BeRzErKeR wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:BRB wrote:
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on
Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.
I would think that "and so on" and "etc" are equivalent, and the inclusion of "and so on" indicates that the series progresses infinitely in the same manner. Right?
Yeah. No idea what I was thinking. Apologies.
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Post by: kirsanth
BeRzErKeR wrote: there doesn't exist a rule which states "You may reroll one die of a multiple-dice roll"
I am not sure this is true. I know there at least was a rule like that. Maybe its Fantasy.
Or Sisters of Battle. Never did buy those mags. . .
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Post by: Katfish!
Luide wrote:
Because I'm pretty sure there isn't a special rule or wargear that allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll. I'm also pretty sure that if such existed, it would have been found already and presented in this thread.
But it doesn't matter, we just need to look for other sources to see what specific means (=establishing baseline) in the context of 40k rules. First being dictionary, second being any SM codex. Both being (unsurprisingly) in agreement.
But do you really still think, considering all evidence to contrary (ATSKNF and SA for example) that Chronometron explicitly allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll?
It can be read to give implicit permission, with that I agree. But pg2 requires explicit permission, which is definitely not given.
.
I ask this only because I feel that the standard of "specificity" in this thread seems to be rather high. If this is the only rule in 40k that says you may re-roll a d6, and not re-roll an entire roll (such as Corrubulo and similar rules) then that itself is telling. I think that, personally, this argument has become very RAWish and doesn't consider the wider context. To me, The rules intent (OH GOD I REFERENCED INTENT) was to allow a single die to be re-rolled. Any die that was rolled by the unit, pick one up and re-roll it per phase. I honestly don't get why saying i can re-roll a D6 doesn't mean I can re-roll a dice. (I SAW YOUR POST DON'T QUOTE THE SAME THING AGAIN). I understand that a multiD6 roll has a result that is added together. but by re-rolling a D6 it just changes the number contributed by that dice. Chronometron says i can re-roll a D6, A multiD6 roll is multiple added together. That to me is specific enough. (I HAVE READ THIS THREAD I DONT NEED 4 PEOPLE RESTATING THE THREAD BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH MY INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC) I understand and can follow the logic of everyone's thoughts here, I just personally disagree.
As for there not being any example in 40k of a rule allowing what I said to happen, I agree i can't think of one. However, what constitutes being sufficient? I think everyone is seeking the best wording, which is clearly not going to be there in a GW product. That's all I'm saying
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Post by: Yad
Happyjew wrote:If Chronometron said "you may re-roll a d6" you would have an argument. It doesn't. It says "you may re-roll a single d6 roll.
Not quite right. It says, "...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase...". I'm being a bit nitpicky here since you are putting such emphasis on the wording.
Happyjew wrote: A very very important distinction. I pointed out examples where the rules specify to make a D6 roll. I pointed out examples where the rule specifies to make a 2D6 roll. However, you are clinging to your interpretation that a D6 roll is the same as a 2d6 roll (BTW, a 2xd6 roll would give you a result of [2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12] which is NOT the same as 2d6.).
I'm with ND on this one, though for different reasons. Let's say I've got a Tremor Cryptek and a Chrono Cryptek in the same unit, along with 8 Warriors. On my shooting phase everybody shoots (except the Aeonstave of course). The tremorstave is a blast weapon so you follow the rules for that ( 2d6- BS; assume the scatter die was not a hit). So when all is said and done (and here is why I think the Chrono works regardless of the type of roll) the unit has rolled 10 d6's. The Chrono doesn't care what type of roll you made (leadership, scatter, deep strike, etc.), it only cares that a D6 has been 'rolled' on the table. In this scenario the Chrono lets me pick up any one of those D6 dice rolls and re-roll it.
-Yad
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Except its there in ATSKNF. We know what specific means in 40k terms.
The intent is to reroll a D6 roll, which we know they intend (because they wrote this, very specifically) to be different to a 2D6+ roll.
Yad - except that a 2D6 roll is different to a D6 roll. The rules state they are different things. That is what the rules allow.
Like ND, you are wrong on thsi one.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
Here it is:
p. 26 of Eldar Codex:
Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."
There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.
If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:
p. 26 of Eldar Codex:
Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."
There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.
A hit! A palpable hit!
However, I must point out that the point that 3d6 = 3 rolls still doesn't negate the point about specificity. The only precedent I know of on that point (Sweeping Advance) indicates that a higher degree of specificity is required in order to override a rule which calls for something "specific" than the Chronometron rule provides.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:
p. 26 of Eldar Codex:
Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."
There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.
If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.
Except it doesn't say that anymore.
Eldar FAQ wrote:Page 26 – Runes of Witnessing
Change the last two sentences to “A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result.
19754
Post by: puma713
Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:
p. 26 of Eldar Codex:
Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."
There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.
If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.
Did you just cherry-pick the verbage from a late edition codex and apply it to your entire argument (and consequently all of 40K)?
I haven't been following this thread at all, but I hope that's not your strongest defense throughout.
Edit: Yeah. . .see below.
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Post by: Happyjew
Yad wrote:"...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase..."
My point stands, it says you can re-roll one of his D6 rolls. 2D6 is not a D6 roll.
Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:
p. 26 of Eldar Codex:
Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."
That is not correct.
Eldar Update Version 1.1 wrote:“A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result."
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
puma713 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:
p. 26 of Eldar Codex:
Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."
There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.
If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.
Did you just cherry-pick the verbage from a late edition codex and apply it to your entire argument (and consequently all of 40K)?
I haven't been following this thread at all, but I hope that's not your strongest defense throughout.
There literally is nothing else offered by anyone that is more clear. It was starting to look like the Necron Codex was the only example of a rule working this way in all of 40k. That being said, the Eldar Codex is just as valid as any other rule set.
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Post by: kirsanth
Read "The Far-Seeing Eye" for rules that read like Nemesor Dave thinks this one does.
"Corbullo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made, such as for an armour save, a Leadership test, a To Hit roll, a scatter roll, or even to seize the Initiative."
That is explicit.
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Post by: rigeld2
kirsanth wrote:That is explicit.
But is it specific?!?!?!
19754
Post by: puma713
Nemesor Dave wrote:That being said, the Eldar Codex is just as valid as any other rule set.
See Happyjew's post above. The wording was changed.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
puma713 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:That being said, the Eldar Codex is just as valid as any other rule set.
See Happyjew's post above. The wording was changed.
Mine too! But it was lost at the bottom of page 7 :(
5873
Post by: kirsanth
rigeld2 wrote:kirsanth wrote:That is explicit.
But is it specific?!?!?!
 Yes, it is very specific that each of those listings is a single roll. editing to add: I really do recall a rule saying the other side of that (rule xxx saying that a single di[c]e was allowed to be re-roll out of a set), but am not finding it ATM.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
Happyjew wrote:
That is not correct.
Eldar Update Version 1.1 wrote:“A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result."
Well, this clears up the rule that I was thinking of. It looks like GW made an effort to change any text that calls individual dice of a multi dice roll - "rolls".
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Post by: McNinja
So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).
To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
In fact they made the same change with SitW and Runes of Warding.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).
To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.
No, not really.
I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.
Read the tenets of the forum you are posting in, and dont raise "I called GW and they said...." as a valid *anything* again
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Post by: azazel the cat
McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).
To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.
And I'm sure the shipping clerk you spoke to honestly believes this.
"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase." Necron codex, pg. 85
It does not say he may re-roll a D6. It says he may re-roll one of his D6 rolls. These semantics are supremely important here.
Is a Leadership test a D6 roll? No. It is a 2D6 roll. Because again 2D6 =/= 2x D6 rolls.
It is like saying you may re-take one of your school exams. That does not mean that you may re-do only a single page of one of your exams; it means you may re-do the entire exam.
19754
Post by: puma713
nosferatu1001 wrote:
I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.
I don't laugh often in YMDC, but that made me lol.
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Post by: McNinja
nosferatu1001 wrote:McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).
To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.
No, not really.
I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.
Read the tenets of the forum you are posting in, and dont raise "I called GW and they said...." as a valid *anything* again
interesting. I went up to the GW in the mall where I work and they did the same thing. Well, not the insurance thing. The whole "not having their rules together" thing. I apologize for the "I called gw and said" thing, I was delirious from being at work for too long.
I still stand behind.everything I've said thus far in this thread, regardless.
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Post by: Kitzz
Version 1.2 of my FAQ is out, for those interested. I think there's some juicy bits in there that would make for great YMDC discussions like this one, but I'll let those interested decide which they think are the most fun. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/409141.page#3810547
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Post by: foolishmortal
azazel the cat wrote:You have $1 and want to buy a Twinkie, but Twinkies are sold in 2-packs and cost $2 per pack. Unless you can specifically find a single Twinkie, you have to pay for the 2-pack.
Since you cannot afford the 2-pack, you cannot have a Twinkie.
I like the twinkie analogy. It does re-raise one of my original questions about the chronometron though. If I have 2 in a unit, can I re-roll a leadership test?
azazel the cat wrote:What you must remember is that 40k operates under a permissive ruleset. This means that you may not perform any action unless specified. That is, the answer to ever single question about "can I...?" is "no", unless there is a specific permission to do so.
This will not likely go to 30 pages, but it has been a reasonably long discussion. Thus, some people might have forgotten that the actual chronometron rules says "...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase...". It was only after some investigation that we determined that d6 roll = 1d6. I stand by my earlier statement.
If you had a group of children watch a game of 40k and explained it in simple terms as you played, then read them the chronometron rule, then rolled a leadership test, then asked the children if you could re-roll one of the two dice, I think a majority would say you can. This hypothetical proves nothing, but I hope it helps some realize that the PRO position is arguing in good faith. Currently, I think the NO position is correct ( RAW) while the PRO position is correct ( RAI).
azazel the cat wrote:"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase." Necron codex, pg. 85
This plus the errata'd language on page 26 of the eldar codex is the strongest NO arguement I have seen. The lack of specificity did not sway me for reasons that I explained earlier. This quote however is fairly tight. A d6 might be a die sometimes and a 1d6 roll other times, but a ' d6 roll' has much less wiggle room IMO.
McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).
To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.
I called them about this a long time ago. I received the same answer your did, with the same explanation. (Maybe the same CSR) I didn't even try to post that here. I have come to think of these threads as something similar to a 'guess the number game'
Sometimes you see a contest or promotion that involves guessing the number of somethings in the container. In the US it is often jelly beans in a glass jar, but the concept is probably fairly global. You look at the jar, guess your best guess, write it down on a piece of paper with your contact information. If you are the closest, you win! Often times you win the jar, sometime you win a cash prize or a trip, etc. It's really just a way to get people's contact information and promote whatever it is the organization wants to promote. But it's a fun game where it is helpful to be both smart and lucky - similar to 40k. The more troublesome YMDC threads here are like the guess the number game, and calling GW Customer Service is like cheating (but in an ethical way). It's like opening the jar and actually counting the jellybeans. You get a definitive answer, but you will likely still not be able to convince anyone else.
nosferatu1001 wrote:I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.
Read the tenets of the forum you are posting in, and dont raise "I called GW and they said...." as a valid *anything* again
@nosferatu - your posts break the tenets of the forum on a near daily basis. Please don't take that as a criticism. Your participation makes me smile more often than it makes me frown. This was really funny though, thank you for participating.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
foolishmortal wrote:azazel the cat wrote:You have $1 and want to buy a Twinkie, but Twinkies are sold in 2-packs and cost $2 per pack. Unless you can specifically find a single Twinkie, you have to pay for the 2-pack.
Since you cannot afford the 2-pack, you cannot have a Twinkie.
I like the twinkie analogy. It does re-raise one of my original questions about the chronometron though. If I have 2 in a unit, can I re-roll a leadership test?
Is a 2d6 roll 2 1d6 rolls?
(hint: no)
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
rigeld2 wrote:Is a 2d6 roll 2 1d6 rolls?
(hint: no)
Yes, yes, I know. I hit multi-quote and was working my way through what I wanted to respond to. You [begin silly sarcasm] obviously [end silly sarcasm] did not read my whole post.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
foolishmortal wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Is a 2d6 roll 2 1d6 rolls?
(hint: no)
Yes, yes, I know. I hit multi-quote and was working my way through what I wanted to respond to. You [begin silly sarcasm] obviously [end silly sarcasm] did not read my whole post.
I also disagree that the PRO position is RAI - GW has gone out of their way to leave clues that they don't intend this to work - mostly by errating things that would help the PRO position and removing the helpful phrase.
It's not intended, and it's not how the rules read - you can only re-roll a d6 roll. This does not include a leadership test, a scatter roll, some_other_roll_I_don't_feel_like_thinking_about_but_uses_multiple_d6 roll... not even part of those rolls.
40371
Post by: foolishmortal
rigeld2 wrote:I also disagree that the PRO position is RAI - GW has gone out of their way to leave clues that they don't intend this to work - mostly by errating things that would help the PRO position and removing the helpful phrase.
My reasons for seeing this as RAI are not particularly relevant to this discussion. I would not expect them to persuade others on YMDC and I will not reiterate them here.
I disagree with the idea that GW has "gone out of their way to leave clues" about this topic. You are giving them way more credit than is likely their due. You gave a movie reference earlier, I will respond with one now. GW does not have the cunning deviousness of the founding fathers in the National Treasure movies. We are not Nicolas Cage and there is no treasure map in invisible ink on the back of the original Rogue Trader rules.
50336
Post by: azazel the cat
foolishmortal wrote:rigeld2 wrote:I also disagree that the PRO position is RAI - GW has gone out of their way to leave clues that they don't intend this to work - mostly by errating things that would help the PRO position and removing the helpful phrase.
My reasons for seeing this as RAI are not particularly relevant to this discussion. I would not expect them to persuade others on YMDC and I will not reiterate them here.
I disagree with the idea that GW has "gone out of their way to leave clues" about this topic. You are giving them way more credit than is likely their due. You gave a movie reference earlier, I will respond with one now. GW does not have the cunning deviousness of the founding fathers in the National Treasure movies. We are not Nicolas Cage and there is no treasure map in invisible ink on the back of the original Rogue Trader rules.
Well, not unless you have the special glasses to view it...
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
I wanted to throw this into the mix as well. I realize that the following is a bit unorthodox, but I'll explain why I'm even bringing it up below, and it's not just to create a ridiculous argument as it will first appear.
The term "one of his d6 rolls" can also be read as the set of all types of d6 rolls including 2d6, 3d6, xd6, etc. Especially if the statement is made in a "passing" manner.
Example:
"It let's you re-roll one of your d6 rolls".
This could be translated as:
"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"
Which could thereby mean that you can re-roll the entire 2d6 roll.
The exact quote is: "can re-roll one of his d6 rolls" which could also imply the collective set of any xd6 roll.
The reason I'm bringing this up is because i really think the intent of the Chronometron is to allow you to re-roll a result, not just taking the strict meaning of a die. I just don't think the author of the book put enough effort into the wording to fully express that "oh yeah! I should have also said your 2d6 rolls!". He's just made the statement in a "passing" manner. I won't make this argument because intent is impossible to prove, but we all also know that GW doesn't always spell everything out in a technical way.
What I would really like to see here is a ruling go into the INAT on this issue. I see that the issue about 1d6 <> 2d6 is pretty cut and dry, but I also see that the words in this case could also imply a 3rd, yet unconsidered scenario here, in that the Chronometron may also be giving your permission to re-roll the entire 2d6 roll as "one of [your] d6 rolls".
47462
Post by: rigeld2
ngilstrap wrote:This could be translated as:
"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"
No, it can't. 1d6 and d6 are equivilant in the rules.
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote:This could be translated as:
"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"
No, it can't. 1d6 and d6 are equivilant in the rules.
This wasn't relevant to what I am stating. I'm not stating d6 <> 1d6.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Except that since 1d6 = d6, the Chrono only re-rolls a 1d6 roll and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll.
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
rigeld2 wrote:Except that since 1d6 = d6, the Chrono only re-rolls a 1d6 roll....
As I stated, the Chronometron allows you to "re-roll one of [your] d6 rolls". It certainly can be interpreted that the term " d6 rolls" in this case refers to a set of all types of d6 rolls. The analogy here would be using the word "coke" to refer to all types of soft drinks or "car' to refer to all types of automobiles. This is not a case of rules but a case of language interpretation.
Further: "the Chrono only re-rolls a 1d6 roll" is one of the interpretations of the above, not the necessary conclusion. (Rather, all that this statement is is restating the question which is irrelevant).
rigeld2 wrote:
...and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll.
This is irrelevant because I never stated this nor implied it.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
ngilstrap wrote:As I stated, the Chronometron allows you to "re-roll one of [your] d6 rolls". It certainly can be interpreted that the term "d6 rolls" in this case refers to a set of all types of d6 rolls.
It can be, but it is incorrect to do so.
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
kirsanth wrote:ngilstrap wrote:As I stated, the Chronometron allows you to "re-roll one of [your] d6 rolls". It certainly can be interpreted that the term "d6 rolls" in this case refers to a set of all types of d6 rolls.
It can be, but it is incorrect to do so.
Great. Now, why would it be incorrect to do so?
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Read the thread.
Your position is not a new one. It has been addressed.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
ngilstrap wrote: rigeld2 wrote: ...and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll. This is irrelevant because I never stated this nor implied it. ngilstrap wrote: "It let's you re-roll one of your d6 rolls". This could be translated as: "one of your 1d6 rolls" OR "one of your rolls which involve d6s" orly? edit: "one of your rolls which involve d6s" can't mean anything but "part of a mutli- d6 roll" so saying that you never stated nor implied it would be false. You're free to clarify that however.
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
kirsanth wrote:Read the thread.
Your position is not a new one. It has been addressed.
I would ask that you re-read my statement because this position has not been addressed in this thread.
All of the arguments thus far are based on the interpretation that the statement in the book is explicitly referring to a 1d6 roll. From there, it has gone into discussions about if that 1d6 roll in question can be applied to xd6 rolls.
I am proposing that the reading could be that the " d6 roll" mentioned in the Chronometron rule is as a reference to the set of all xd6 rolls. This position has not been mentioned, but I felt was important to mention because of the lackadaisical manner in which the Chronometron rule is written. It is a 3rd and possible interpretation that the Chronometron allows for a flat re-roll of a 2d6 roll because a 2d6 roll is a type of d6 roll.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
ngilstrap wrote:It is a 3rd and possible interpretation that the Chronometron allows for a flat re-roll of a 2d6 roll because a 2d6 roll is a type of d6 roll.
Except it's not.
a d6 roll is defined in the rules.
1d6 and d6 are synonymous in the rules.
Therefore a 2d6 roll is not a type of d6 roll.
You can call those facts irrelevant all you want, but you're wrong.
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote: rigeld2 wrote: ...and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll. This is irrelevant because I never stated this nor implied it. ngilstrap wrote: "It let's you re-roll one of your d6 rolls". This could be translated as: "one of your 1d6 rolls" OR "one of your rolls which involve d6s" orly? edit: "one of your rolls which involve d6s" can't mean anything but "part of a mutli- d6 roll" so saying that you never stated nor implied it would be false. You're free to clarify that however. Sure. A roll which involves d6s could be 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, xd6 and so on. There is no intent to demonstrate that a roll of xd6 is comprised of multiple 1d6 rolls. The intent is to propose that the term " d6 roll" could also be interpreted, especially given the manner in which GW approaches rule writing historically, the be the set of all xd6 rolls. This is entirely different to that which has been discussed thus far. The context of this statement is contained in the rest of that original post. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote:It is a 3rd and possible interpretation that the Chronometron allows for a flat re-roll of a 2d6 roll because a 2d6 roll is a type of d6 roll.
Except it's not. a d6 roll is defined in the rules. 1d6 and d6 are synonymous in the rules. Therefore a 2d6 roll is not a type of d6 roll. You can call those facts irrelevant all you want, but you're wrong. I'm not calling those statements irrelevant. What I am stating is irrelevant is their use to counter the point I am making. There is no disagreement that a d6 is defined as a 1d6 roll. The simpler way of stating this then would be that I am basically stating the the term " d6 roll" has multiple definitions, one of which is the one you just brought up. Also, indeed a 2d6 roll is a type of d6 roll by definition. It's even in the name.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
ngilstrap wrote:What I am stating is irrelevant is their use to counter the point I am making. There is no disagreement that a d6 is defined as a 1d6 roll. The simpler way of stating this then would be that I am basically stating the the term "d6 roll" has multiple definitions, one of which is the one you just brought up.
Please back your new definition up with a rules citation.
54896
Post by: ngilstrap
rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote:What I am stating is irrelevant is their use to counter the point I am making. There is no disagreement that a d6 is defined as a 1d6 roll. The simpler way of stating this then would be that I am basically stating the the term "d6 roll" has multiple definitions, one of which is the one you just brought up.
Please back your new definition up with a rules citation.
The rulebook is not a dictionary nor a guide on language. If to prove the point that an interpretation could be read that a passing reference to a " d6 roll" would thusly require a rulebook definition, then I will be unable to prove it given those parameters. To do that would require the authors at GW to adopt a vastly more technical stance in their writings and definitions than that which is currently present or ever has been present.
So, in short, if we need the rolebook to define the use of language itself, I will never be able to convince you that one could easily read the term "one of [your] d6 rolls" to be any roll involving d6s. Likewise, I would be unable to convince you that someone referring to a "car" might also be referring to an SUV. Or someone referring to a "coke" might actually be asking for a Pepsi.
I'd be willing to concede the point on that.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
ngilstrap wrote:rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote:What I am stating is irrelevant is their use to counter the point I am making. There is no disagreement that a d6 is defined as a 1d6 roll. The simpler way of stating this then would be that I am basically stating the the term "d6 roll" has multiple definitions, one of which is the one you just brought up.
Please back your new definition up with a rules citation.
The rulebook is not a dictionary nor a guide on language. If to prove the point that an interpretation could be read that a passing reference to a " d6 roll" would thusly require a rulebook definition, then I will be unable to prove it given those parameters. To do that would require the authors at GW to adopt a vastly more technical stance in their writings and definitions than that which is currently present or ever has been present.
So, in short, if we need the rolebook to define the use of language itself, I will never be able to convince you that one could easily read the term "one of [your] d6 rolls" to be any roll involving d6s. Likewise, I would be unable to convince you that someone referring to a "car" might also be referring to an SUV. Or someone referring to a "coke" might actually be asking for a Pepsi.
I'd be willing to concede the point on that.
Thank you for strawmanning.
d6 == 1d6 is a fact based on the rules. To prove an additional definition, you'd have to have rules backup.
Falling back to dictionary/common usage is only viable in the *absence* of any rules based definition.
You're trying to fall back out of the rules when the rules have provided a clear definition already.
Essentially, you're trying to off an alternative explanation for Ballistic Skill.
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Post by: azazel the cat
Granted, I don't agree with him often, but Rigeld2 has this one dead to rights.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
ngilstrap wrote:rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
...and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll.
This is irrelevant because I never stated this nor implied it.
ngilstrap wrote:
"It let's you re-roll one of your d6 rolls".
This could be translated as:
"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"
orly?
edit: "one of your rolls which involve d6s" can't mean anything but "part of a mutli- d6 roll" so saying that you never stated nor implied it would be false.
You're free to clarify that however.
Sure. A roll which involves d6s could be 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, xd6 and so on. There is no intent to demonstrate that a roll of xd6 is comprised of multiple 1d6 rolls. The intent is to propose that the term " d6 roll" could also be interpreted, especially given the manner in which GW approaches rule writing historically, the be the set of all xd6 rolls. This is entirely different to that which has been discussed thus far. The context of this statement is contained in the rest of that original post.
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rigeld2 wrote:ngilstrap wrote:It is a 3rd and possible interpretation that the Chronometron allows for a flat re-roll of a 2d6 roll because a 2d6 roll is a type of d6 roll.
Except it's not.
a d6 roll is defined in the rules.
1d6 and d6 are synonymous in the rules.
Therefore a 2d6 roll is not a type of d6 roll.
You can call those facts irrelevant all you want, but you're wrong.
I'm not calling those statements irrelevant.
What I am stating is irrelevant is their use to counter the point I am making. There is no disagreement that a d6 is defined as a 1d6 roll. The simpler way of stating this then would be that I am basically stating the the term " d6 roll" has multiple definitions, one of which is the one you just brought up.
Also, indeed a 2d6 roll is a type of d6 roll by definition. It's even in the name. 
I looked through the BRB and many codexs to find an example of this. Amazingly the authors have been very consistent with the language regarding rolls and how many dice are used. Granted most rolls involve 1D6 so the number of examples you'll find are limited.
If you can find one case of this, to prove your point it would be enough for you to make this claim. Anywhere in a codex or the BRB where the text calls a 2D6 roll a D6 roll, or refers to a partial reroll of multple dice as "a roll".
To add to that, the one clear example of this I did find - in the Eldar codex had be changed by an errata. In this case GW has been very precise.
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Post by: Happyjew
Nemesor Dave wrote:To add to that, the one clear example of this I did find - in the Eldar codex had be changed by an errata. In this case GW has been very precise.
SitW was also changed to similar wording (roll an extra d6).
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Post by: TheGreatAvatar
A clear distinction between 2d6 and two d6 is made page 14, under Moving Through Difficult Terrain:
"...must take a difficult terrain test. Roll two d6 and select the highest...."
Note how two d6 is used instead of 2d6. The dtt is made using rolling two individual d6. This is different from 2d6 which is two d6 added together. In the former example, the dice are not coupled together, while in the latter the two dice are coupled. Thus, with Chronom, a d6 from a difficult terrain test can be rerolled but, however, since the rules couple the 2d6 dice, Chronom has no affect on that them (or any coupling of dice in the form of id6+C, where i > 1.
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Post by: azazel the cat
TheGreatAvatar wrote:A clear distinction between 2d6 and two d6 is made page 14, under Moving Through Difficult Terrain:
"...must take a difficult terrain test. Roll two d6 and select the highest...."
Note how two d6 is used instead of 2d6. The dtt is made using rolling two individual d6. This is different from 2d6 which is two d6 added together. In the former example, the dice are not coupled together, while in the latter the two dice are coupled. Thus, with Chronom, a d6 from a difficult terrain test can be rerolled but, however, since the rules couple the 2d6 dice, Chronom has no affect on that them (or any coupling of dice in the form of id6+C, where i > 1.
Finally, an example!
You are my hero.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
TheGreatAvatar wrote:A clear distinction between 2d6 and two d6 is made page 14, under Moving Through Difficult Terrain:
"...must take a difficult terrain test. Roll two d6 and select the highest...."
Note how two d6 is used instead of 2d6. The dtt is made using rolling two individual d6. This is different from 2d6 which is two d6 added together. In the former example, the dice are not coupled together, while in the latter the two dice are coupled. Thus, with Chronom, a d6 from a difficult terrain test can be rerolled but, however, since the rules couple the 2d6 dice, Chronom has no affect on that them (or any coupling of dice in the form of id6+C, where i > 1.
Soooo, in English? You're saying you could reroll a single D6 of a difficult terrain test. But it other cases of specifically 2D6 rolls, you cannot reroll a single D6. I would agree with this provided no new info is found.
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Post by: rigeld2
That's what we've been saying for 9 pages.
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Post by: DevianID
I have questions and concerns.
The eldar say roll an extra d6 and discard the highest result.
Now, this makes a normal 2d6 psychic check a 3d6 check. According to the idea that 3d6 is a 'single entity' we discard the highest result. So if you roll a 4, a 5, and a 6, you discard the 15. Or are you saying that each d6 roll in the 3d6 eldar check has its own result? If you are saying that, then you discard the 6, but you also would allow the chronometron to work.
Now I also see there is a FAQ. The FAQ says that if you reroll a check that involves multiple dice, you reroll all of them. Thus, if you have a twin linked blast, you reroll 2d6.
BUT, the chronometron does not grant a reroll of a check like twin linked. It works differently. So the FAQ does not apply to it. Because the chronometron does not reroll leadership, or reroll armor saves, ect.
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Post by: azazel the cat
DevianID wrote:I have questions and concerns.
The eldar say roll an extra d6 and discard the highest result.
Now, this makes a normal 2d6 psychic check a 3d6 check. According to the idea that 3d6 is a 'single entity' we discard the highest result. So if you roll a 4, a 5, and a 6, you discard the 15. Or are you saying that each d6 roll in the 3d6 eldar check has its own result? If you are saying that, then you discard the 6, but you also would allow the chronometron to work.
This is not quite correct. The roll is still a 2D6 roll. You just happen to roll and extra D6, and then discard the highest result, thus making the end result still a 2D6 roll. The same principle applies to ordnance rolls. In your interpretation, you are succumbing to the (apparently common) mistake of thinking that 2D6 = 2x D6.
The point to the Eldar ability is to give you a mathematical advantage while still keeping the roll 2D6. But at no point does the roll ever stop being a 2D6 roll; you just get to 'cheat' the probability table on what the outcome will be.
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Post by: Happyjew
Unless your playing Nids, and are within SitW range. Or playing Eldar who took the othe rRunes (can never seem to remember which is which)...
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Post by: thefishstick
I would read it as any roll which uses just single D6; unless it specifically says XD6 otherwise. So i couldn't use it to reroll one of the dice for a failed leadership test. Makes sense too that unit has to be in play before its ability can be used (I.e. if I failed my reserve roll for the unit and i wanted to use it to reroll I couldn't because the unit is not in play yet)
It could be taken either way though depending on who your talking to i suppose. What I do with things like these is if the people you play with are cool with it working that way then your g2g; or if not you'd be stuck arguing it out like in this thread.
Its a neat idea though; another one for the FAQ either way.
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Post by: DevianID
This is not quite correct. The roll is still a 2D6 roll. You just happen to roll and extra D6, and then discard the highest result, thus making the end result still a 2D6 roll.
Azazel, this is my issue I suppose. So you roll an extra 1d6 roll to a 2d6 roll, and the result of each d6 in the now 3d6 roll is important and unique. You can pick a single 1d6 out of the 3d6 roll as well.
If we say that it is still a 3d6 roll, then the result you discard will be the 15, as that is the highest result on your 3d6 roll, which is a single item, and not 3x1d6, per you. Right?
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Post by: foolishmortal
At this point, I would say that psychic tests in general and non-2d6 psychic tests in particular are the roughest patch of this issue - especially when contrasted with difficult terrain tests. GW appears to have made some effort at streamlining this with the eldar faq language.
While it is interesting and entertaining to poke holes in each other's theories, what we really need here is an interpretation with no holes in it, or at least to pick the theory with the least holes in it. At this point, I would say that is the NO position here.
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Post by: DevianID
foolishmortal, I would disagree. I would say that, with the FAQs being contradictory on if Xd6 is a single entity or multiple entity (but leaning toward the multiple entity), we can safely ignore both sides of the FAQs for bearing on a 'least holes' discussion. Which means that common language of a d6 rolls being a real six sided die that was rolled. This would be any single six sided die rolled, including 1 of the 2 six sided dice rolled as part of a leadership test.
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Post by: rigeld2
DevianID wrote:Which means that common language of a d6 rolls being a real six sided die that was rolled. This would be any single six sided die rolled, including 1 of the 2 six sided dice rolled as part of a leadership test.
Falling back to "common language" when the BRB defines a difference between a d6 roll and multi- d6 rolls is a bad idea.
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Post by: foolishmortal
DevianID wrote:foolishmortal, I would disagree. I would say that, with the FAQs being contradictory on if Xd6 is a single entity or multiple entity (but leaning toward the multiple entity), we can safely ignore both sides of the FAQs for bearing on a 'least holes' discussion. Which means that common language of a d6 rolls being a real six sided die that was rolled. This would be any single six sided die rolled, including 1 of the 2 six sided dice rolled as part of a leadership test.
And I would disagree with your disagreement, but with a particularly important specification. IMO RAI, I agree with you. IMO RAW, I disagree with you. My communication with GW is not enough to settle anything here at YMDC, but it does clarify things for me. I believe this rule is poorly worded. It would have been difficult to phrase it clearly without sounding silly, but I still think it could have been done better.
Regardless, I am still willing to participate in a RAW discussion about it. In that discussion, I disagree with you sir.
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Post by: McNinja
It would have been very easy to make this rule clear: "the HoE or his unit may re-roll any d6 roll where only one d6 was rolled in the first place."
The fact that this rule is written so poorly, in addition to some other Necron codex shenanigans, shows that Ward was barely interested in writing this codex. As someone who is actually writing a codex, and just writes a lot in general, if you are just not interested, there isn't much you can do to get youself interested. It's a shame that rules like this get written, because while Ward was slapped with the codex, there was probably someone else who was actually interested, at least more than Ward, in the necron codex. Well, either that Ward drew the short straw.
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Post by: foolishmortal
McNinja wrote:It would have been very easy to make this rule clear: "the HoE or his unit may re-roll any d6 roll where only one d6 was rolled in the first place."
I disagree sir. Your version is unclear in many areas. You didn't limit it to once per phase. You seem to exclude being able to re-roll one of several simultaineous rolls. DTTs are still ambiguous, etc.
McNinja wrote:The fact that this rule is written so poorly, in addition to some other Necron codex shenanigans, shows that Ward was barely interested in writing this codex.
I agree that the new Necron codex seems to have more than the typical share of shenanigans. I play primarily IG and Necrons and I have far, far fewer rules interpretation issues come up for IG. I am starting to dip my feet into Tau and I am having more issues with necrons than I am with a codex that isn't even written for the current rules edition.
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Post by: Luide
DevianID wrote:foolishmortal, I would disagree. I would say that, with the FAQs being contradictory on if Xd6 is a single entity or multiple entity (but leaning toward the multiple entity), we can safely ignore both sides of the FAQs for bearing on a 'least holes' discussion. Which means that common language of a d6 rolls being a real six sided die that was rolled. This would be any single six sided die rolled, including 1 of the 2 six sided dice rolled as part of a leadership test.
I'd agree with you, except that rules stipulate that if you want to re-roll only part of 2d6 / 3d6 roll, you need to have explicit permission to do so.
Chrono only gives implicit permission, which would be enough, if not for the "explicit permission required" part on the pg 2 of brb.
As for McNinja, GW are unfortunately not known for writing concise, clear rules :/
Considering that practically all FAQ entries would be unnecessary if GW did so, we cannot really infer anything just from the fact that rule could have been easily written so that its meaning would be clear.
edit: fixed typo
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Actually, viewed objectively, the Necron codex has fewer errata and FAQ than SW, DE, etc.
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Post by: foolishmortal
nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually, viewed objectively, the Necron codex has fewer errata and FAQ than SW, DE, etc.
Are you referring to the number of pages in the recent codex updates by GW? If so, that is not an ideal metric for how well the codex was written. That is more of a measure of how many errors, amendments, errata and FAQs that GW chose to admit are an ongoing problem and address at that point in time.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Luide wrote:DevianID wrote:foolishmortal, I would disagree. I would say that, with the FAQs being contradictory on if Xd6 is a single entity or multiple entity (but leaning toward the multiple entity), we can safely ignore both sides of the FAQs for bearing on a 'least holes' discussion. Which means that common language of a d6 rolls being a real six sided die that was rolled. This would be any single six sided die rolled, including 1 of the 2 six sided dice rolled as part of a leadership test.
I'd agree with you, except that rules stipulate that if you want to re-roll only part of 2d6 / 3d6 roll, you need to have explicit permission to do so.
Chrono only gives implicit permission, which would be enough, if not for the "explicit permission required" part on the pg 2 of brb.
As for McNinja, GW are unfortunately not known for writing concise, clear rules :/
Considering that practically all FAQ entries would be unnecessary if GW did so, we cannot really infer anything just from the fact that rule could have been easily written so that it's meaning would be clear.
This is completely false. Page 2 of the BRB says that to roll less than the full number of dice, it must be explicitly specified. In other words "if the rule doesn't state the number of dice to re-roll , re-roll them all". A number of dice must be given. Chrono says re-roll 1. Nowhere does it even suggest disallowing a re-roll or setting a prerequisite for a re-roll that is granted by another rule.
To claim this requires a re-roll rule to say something like "you may reroll 2 D6 out of 3D6" is blatantly misinterpreting he BRB. You're going to have to do better than twisting words to get your point across. If thats what it really said, there would be no thread.
The best argument so far is that the Chrono allows one D6 roll - singular. In other places in the BRB and codexes it always refers to a 2D6 roll - also singular. There is no rule that further clarifies this no matter how hard people try to twist the meaning of "explicitly specify otherwise".
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DevianID wrote:I have questions and concerns.
The eldar say roll an extra d6 and discard the highest result.
Now, this makes a normal 2d6 psychic check a 3d6 check. According to the idea that 3d6 is a 'single entity' we discard the highest result. So if you roll a 4, a 5, and a 6, you discard the 15. Or are you saying that each d6 roll in the 3d6 eldar check has its own result? If you are saying that, then you discard the 6, but you also would allow the chronometron to work.
Now I also see there is a FAQ. The FAQ says that if you reroll a check that involves multiple dice, you reroll all of them. Thus, if you have a twin linked blast, you reroll 2d6.
BUT, the chronometron does not grant a reroll of a check like twin linked. It works differently. So the FAQ does not apply to it. Because the chronometron does not reroll leadership, or reroll armor saves, ect.
I believe this demonstrates that viewing a 2D6 as a single entity does not work for all of these types of rolls. Discard the highest would mean that you discard the 2D6 roll or the "extra D6 roll". Most times you would discard the 2D6.
So 3D6 is three D6 rolls. The chronometron 1 D6 roll is referring to a since dice out of any number of dice rolled. I would not allow it to reroll the scatter dice since it is not truely a D6, but either of the two D6's rolled for scatter would be fine.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Nemesor Dave wrote: Page 2 of the BRB says that to roll less than the full number of dice, it must be explicitly specified. In other words "if the rule doesn't state the number of dice to re-roll , re-roll them all". A number of dice must be given. Chrono says re-roll 1. Nowhere does it even suggest disallowing a re-roll or setting a prerequisite for a re-roll that is granted by another rule.
A) If the rule says to re-roll "a roll", it would mean all the dice. Like All-Seeing Eye.
B) Page 2 does say you can't re-roll one die out of a multi-die roll without an explicit rule telling you otherwise. Presently we are not aware of a rule like this, although they may have existed in the past (I think there may be a Chaos: Daemons upgrade; Tzeentch's Will?) or it may just be there in case they decide to include one in the future. I can think of at least two examples from 6th/7th ed WHFB, Mork Save Us and the old default Heavens spell.
DevianID wrote:I have questions and concerns.
The eldar say roll an extra d6 and discard the highest result.
Now, this makes a normal 2d6 psychic check a 3d6 check. According to the idea that 3d6 is a 'single entity' we discard the highest result. So if you roll a 4, a 5, and a 6, you discard the 15. Or are you saying that each d6 roll in the 3d6 eldar check has its own result? If you are saying that, then you discard the 6, but you also would allow the chronometron to work.
No, this to me sounds like "explicitly specifying" a variant procedure. Runes of Witnessing tells us explicitly to roll an additional die, and tells us explicitly to drop the highest single die out of the group. This doesn't conflict with the re-roll rules anyway, because it's not a re-roll.
Overall the Eldar rules IMO support the a group of dice being one roll in cases where not specified otherwise. Runes of Warding's errata, just above Runes of Witnessing's, says:
"Change the last sentence to “All enemy Psykers must roll an extra dice when taking Psychic tests, suffering Perils of the Warp on any roll of 12 or above.” So we can see here that a single (multi-die) roll results in a roll of 12 or above.
DevianID wrote:Now I also see there is a FAQ. The FAQ says that if you reroll a check that involves multiple dice, you reroll all of them. Thus, if you have a twin linked blast, you reroll 2d6.
...and the scatter die. This is actually specified in the main rulebook for scattering blast weapons.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote: Page 2 of the BRB says that to roll less than the full number of dice, it must be explicitly specified. In other words "if the rule doesn't state the number of dice to re-roll , re-roll them all". A number of dice must be given. Chrono says re-roll 1. Nowhere does it even suggest disallowing a re-roll or setting a prerequisite for a re-roll that is granted by another rule.
A) If the rule says to re-roll "a roll", it would mean all the dice. Like All-Seeing Eye.
B) Page 2 does say you can't re-roll one die out of a multi-die roll without an explicit rule telling you otherwise. Presently we are not aware of a rule like this, although they may have existed in the past (I think there may be a Chaos: Daemons upgrade; Tzeentch's Will?) or it may just be there in case they decide to include one in the future. I can think of at least two examples from 6th/7th ed WHFB, Mork Save Us and the old default Heavens spell.
A) I completely agree with.
B) The chronometron telling you to re-roll one, is explicitly specified less than all.
Example:
1) You may re-roll leadership - not explicitly specified, so reroll all.
2) You may re-roll one D6 - explicitly specified.
The idea that explicitly specify means anything other than 'you must be told the number of dice to re-roll' is a fallacy.
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Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:The idea that explicitly specify means anything other than 'you must be told the number of dice to re-roll' is a fallacy and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.
Nice opinion you have there. Too bad that's not how the rules work.
Example: Sweeping Advance.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:The idea that explicitly specify means anything other than 'you must be told the number of dice to re-roll' is a fallacy and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.
Nice opinion you have there. Too bad that's not how the rules work.
Example: Sweeping Advance.
This is not the same.
Sweeping Advance is a specific exception to the rules that allow saves, so an exact wording is required to make an exception to the exception.
The p.2 BRB re-roll rule has nothing to do with disallowing re-rolls. The rule is only regarding when you roll All or a number of dice. The allowed re-roll rule must explicitly specify how many dice to roll for you to roll any less than all.
To try to read into the Re-roll rule anything about disallowed re-rolls is something that is simply not part of the wording and RAW.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Nemesor Dave wrote:The allowed re-roll rule must explicitly specify how many dice to roll for you to roll any less than all.
No, the allowed re-roll rule must explicitly specify that you're able to over-ride the restriction.
Like Sweeping Advance requires an explicit allowance (you know.. like ATSKNF has).
963
Post by: Mannahnin
Nemesor Dave wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Nemesor Dave wrote:The idea that explicitly specify means anything other than 'you must be told the number of dice to re-roll' is a fallacy and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.
Nice opinion you have there. Too bad that's not how the rules work.
Example: Sweeping Advance.
This is not the same.
Sweeping Advance is a specific exception to the rules that allow saves, so an exact wording is required to make an exception to the exception.
There are all kinds of exceptions built into the rules. Many of them are implicit, like a power weapon overriding an armor save. In those cases we rely on the "specific trumps general" principle.
But if a rule says you cannot break it unless you have an "explicit" or "specific" exception, that means the rule granting said exception will have to say in words, rather than imply, that it is granting such an exception. That's what "explicit" means. You are attempting to argue that Chronometron makes an implicit exception, which is not permitted by the rules on page 2.
Sweeping Advance is very much a parallel case.
Page 40 tells us that "unless otherwise specified", the unit is destroyed, and may not be rescued by any save or special rule. So no special rule will save you, unless that rule comes out and says it will save you from a Sweeping Advance, as And They Shall Know No Fear does.
Page 2 tells us that "If you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." Does the Chronometron specify that you can re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Does it make that statement explicitly? It does not. It explicitly states that the model('s player) may re-roll "one of his d6 rolls" or "one of the unit's d6 rolls', with no reference to rolls involving multiple dice. As such there is no explicit reference to rolls of 2d6 or 3d6, and thus it cannot create an exception to the prohibition on re-rolling one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
Mannahnin wrote:
Page 2 tells us that "If you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." Does the Chronometron specify that you can re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Does it make that statement explicitly? It does not. It explicitly states that the model('s player) may re-roll "one of his d6 rolls" or "one of the unit's d6 rolls', with no reference to rolls involving multiple dice. As such there is no explicit reference to rolls of 2d6 or 3d6, and thus it cannot create an exception to the prohibition on re-rolling one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll.
Counter-point; you are NOT rerolling a multi- d6 roll; that is, the Chronometron does not say " reroll Leadership tests" or "reroll Scatter", but rather it says "reroll one of the unit's d6 rolls".
The rule on Page 2 ONLY says that it applies when you are rerolling a multi- d6 roll; meaning, if you have an ability which tells you that you can reroll failed Leadership checks, for instance, you must reroll both the dice rather than only one. However, this is irrelevant to the Chronometron, because the Chronometron doesn't say that.
That being so, I have to say that the argument based on page 2 doesn't actually work; you're trying to apply it to a situation that it does not cover. The thing that prevents the Chronometron from being used to reroll part of a multi- d6 roll is NOT page 2, but rather the distinction that is drawn between d6 rolls and Xd6 rolls.
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Post by: rigeld2
BeRzErKeR wrote:That being so, I have to say that the argument based on page 2 doesn't actually work; you're trying to apply it to a situation that it does not cover. The thing that prevents the Chronometron from being used to reroll part of a multi-d6 roll is NOT page 2, but rather the distinction that is drawn between d6 rolls and Xd6 rolls.
It's a combination, but yes.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:
Page 2 tells us that "If you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." Does the Chronometron specify that you can re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Does it make that statement explicitly? It does not. It explicitly states that the model('s player) may re-roll "one of his d6 rolls" or "one of the unit's d6 rolls', with no reference to rolls involving multiple dice. As such there is no explicit reference to rolls of 2d6 or 3d6, and thus it cannot create an exception to the prohibition on re-rolling one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll.
Sweeping Advance does not change the meaning of the words and the context of the rules is different.
Quoted again for clarity:
"If you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
You must re-roll all dice...
...unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies what? Something other than all of them.
What would qualify as "other than all of them"? Any number that is explicitly specified as not being the same number as all.
Chronometron tells you to reroll ONE.
Does it make that statement explicitly? Yes. It is as precise as it can be. Re-roll one dice, otherwise re-roll all.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
BeRzErKeR wrote:Mannahnin wrote:
Page 2 tells us that "If you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." Does the Chronometron specify that you can re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Does it make that statement explicitly? It does not. It explicitly states that the model('s player) may re-roll "one of his d6 rolls" or "one of the unit's d6 rolls', with no reference to rolls involving multiple dice. As such there is no explicit reference to rolls of 2d6 or 3d6, and thus it cannot create an exception to the prohibition on re-rolling one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll.
Counter-point; you are NOT rerolling a multi- d6 roll; that is, the Chronometron does not say " reroll Leadership tests" or "reroll Scatter", but rather it says "reroll one of the unit's d6 rolls".
The rule on Page 2 ONLY says that it applies when you are rerolling a multi- d6 roll; meaning, if you have an ability which tells you that you can reroll failed Leadership checks, for instance, you must reroll both the dice rather than only one. However, this is irrelevant to the Chronometron, because the Chronometron doesn't say that.
That being so, I have to say that the argument based on page 2 doesn't actually work; you're trying to apply it to a situation that it does not cover. The thing that prevents the Chronometron from being used to reroll part of a multi- d6 roll is NOT page 2, but rather the distinction that is drawn between d6 rolls and Xd6 rolls.
I disagree. That paragraph is the only one on re-rolls. It applies to and covers multiple situations, surrounding d6 rolls and xd6 rolls. BTW page 2 is also where the distinction is drawn between d6 rolls and xd6 rolls.
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Nemesor Dave wrote:"If you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
You must re-roll all dice...
...unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies what? Something other than all of them.
What would qualify as "other than all of them"? Any number that is explicitly specified as not being the same number as all.
Chronometron tells you to reroll ONE.
Does it make that statement explicitly? Yes. It is as precise as it can be. Re-roll one dice, otherwise re-roll all.
It tell you explicitly to re-roll one die. It does not tell you explicitly that it is an exception to the rule that you may not re-roll a single die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 rule. As opposed to And They Shall Know No Fear, which tells us explicitly that it can save the unit from a Sweeping Advance.
I also note that you're still misrepresenting what Chronometron says. It doesn't say to re-roll one die. It says to re-roll "a d6 roll".
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Post by: Happyjew
ND, chrono doesn't tell you to re-roll 1 d6. It says to re-roll 1 d6 roll, a VERY big difference.
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Post by: DevianID
If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise.
Guys, keep in mind the above quote being used for this argument was missing the important 're-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll...'
I have seen it being quoted as 'if you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll...'
Obviously the 2 meanings are very different. Where did this misquote come from, and how much argument has been based off the incorrect quote?
Because the way I see it, chronometron does not allow a 2d6 or 3d6 reroll, therefore the restriction on rolling all or none does not come close to applying.
BeRsErKeR had it right when he said the argument about page 2 does not prevent chronometron. I dont understand his second point though about 2d6 rolls being different than 1d6 rolls. We are told that to roll a 2d6 roll, we "Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2d6 roll is two (1d6) dice rolled and added together for a score between 2 and 12." The individual dice rolled are still d6's that each have a unique score. The chronometron allows you to reroll any of the units d6 rolls. The 2 dice in a 2d6 roll are still two 1d6 rolls.
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Post by: rigeld2
DevianID wrote:The 2 dice in a 2d6 roll are still two 1d6 rolls.
No.
a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll are two distinct things in the rules. You make a 2d6 roll by rolling 2 six sided dice, but that is not 2 1d6 rolls.
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Post by: DevianID
Rigeld2, except the rules say that a six sided dice is a d6.
"Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2d6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score between 2 and 12"
So you roll a number of d6(dice) as indicated. d6 are d6. Then you add them together for a result.
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Post by: rigeld2
DevianID wrote:Rigeld2, except the rules say that a six sided dice is a d6.
"Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2d6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score between 2 and 12"
So you roll a number of d6(dice) as indicated. d6 are d6. Then you add them together for a result.
A d6 and a d6 roll are different things. a 2d6 roll is rolling 2 dice and adding them together. a d6 roll is rolling a single dice/die.
Chrono allows a re-roll of a d6 roll.
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Post by: Tye_Informer
rigeld2 wrote:No.
a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll are two distinct things in the rules. You make a 2d6 roll by rolling 2 six sided dice, but that is not 2 1d6 rolls.
DICE (D6)
In a Warhammer 40,000 battle you often need to roll
dice to see how the actions of your models turn out –
how effective their shooting is, what damage they’ve
done to a vehicle, how far they fall back from enemy
fire, and so on. Almost all of the dice rolls in
Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually
referred to as ‘D6’).
So a six-sided dice is usually referred to as a ' D6'.
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the
indicated number of dice and add the scores together,
so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for
a score of between 2-12.
So a 2D6 roll is done by rolling 2 dice ( D6) and adding them together.
A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase. If the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase.
A chronometron allows me to re-roll one of those D6 rolls each phase. So I can pickup and re-roll one of those dice, as long as I have not done so already during that phase.
Ordinarily, according to the rules already quoted multiple times, if I wanted to re-roll a scatter, I would have to re-roll all 3 dice (2 six-sided and 1 scatter dice), but the general rules allow a specific rule to override that. As in this case where it specifically says to "re-roll one of those D6 rolls".
The rules even allow you to re-roll a D3, since they say that you can roll a D6 (dice) and halve the score, rounding up.
ROLLING A D3
In rare circumstances you may be told to roll a D3.
Since there’s no such thing as a three-sided dice, use
the following method for determining a score between
1 and 3. Roll a D6 and halve the score, rounding up.
Thus 1 or 2=1, 3 or 4=2 and 5 or 6=3.
Chronometron allows you to re-roll one-and-only-one six-sided dice (of the unit the cryptek is in, etc.) per phase.
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Post by: rigeld2
Tye_Informer wrote:a lot of stuff that shows I didn't read the thread
I reccomend you read the entire thread - I'm not going to go back through and re-cite references.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Mannahnin wrote:
Nemesor Dave wrote:
Does it make that statement explicitly? Yes. It is as precise as it can be. Re-roll one dice, otherwise re-roll all.
It tell you explicitly to re-roll one die. It does not tell you explicitly that it is an exception to the rule that you may not re-roll a single die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 rule. As opposed to And They Shall Know No Fear, which tells us explicitly that it can save the unit from a Sweeping Advance.
The only requirement is to explicitly specify the number of dice to re-roll. There is no other requirement for RAW. "explicitly specify" does not mean what you're extending it to mean.
Mannahnin wrote:
I also note that you're still misrepresenting what Chronometron says. It doesn't say to re-roll one die. It says to re-roll "a d6 roll".
I agree that some rules imply that a 2D6 roll is not two D6 rolls. I would even agree it is RAI. Unfortunately this is not part of RAW.
If you consider any rule that requires rolling 2D6 plus an extra dice and then taking the lowest, each dice MUST be considered as a separate roll. Otherwise the rule simply doesn't work. The 2D6 roll cannot be compared to the "extra D6". In this case the rule MUST be interpreted as 3D6 = three D6 rolls.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
The requirement is to explicitly specify the ABILITY to reroll a portion of the XD6 roll.
That is what you must have permission to reroll, otherwise yet again you just dont understand the term specific.
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Post by: Yad
rigeld2 wrote:DevianID wrote:Rigeld2, except the rules say that a six sided dice is a d6.
"Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2d6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score between 2 and 12"
So you roll a number of d6(dice) as indicated. d6 are d6. Then you add them together for a result.
A d6 and a d6 roll are different things. a 2d6 roll is rolling 2 dice and adding them together. a d6 roll is rolling a single dice/die.
Chrono allows a re-roll of a d6 roll.
This in a nutshell is (in my opinion) the failure of your, and like minded individuals, argument. It's a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. DevianID has laid it out perfectly (even quoting the appropriate portions of the rulebook). The BRB is very explicit in what constitutes a 'multiple d6' roll. It explains the mechanic behind how you resolve a 2d6 roll. I think that foolishmortal was correct to take the common sense approach to this. And DevianID has supplied that actual game mechanic explanation to support that.
-Yad
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Post by: kirsanth
DevianID wrote:"Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2d6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score between 2 and 12"
It does define a 2d6 roll as requiring addition for a score that is counted. Remember, it is impossible to roll a 1 on 2d6.
The fact that the verb "to roll" gets involved confuses people.
Rolling multiple dice can be part of a single roll.
Two 1d6 rolls give 1-6 and 1-6.
A 2d6 roll gives 2-12.
One is two rolls, one is a single roll.
Now, there really are rules that spell out other ways to look at the dice - but that is exactly why it is needed.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
kirsanth wrote:DevianID wrote:"Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2d6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score between 2 and 12"
It does define a 2d6 roll as requiring addition for a score that is counted. Remember, it is impossible to roll a 1 on 2d6.
The fact that the verb "to roll" gets involved confuses people.
Rolling multiple dice can be part of a single roll.
Two 1d6 rolls give 1-6 and 1-6.
A 2d6 roll gives 2-12.
One is two rolls, one is a single roll.
Now, there really are rules that spell out other ways to look at the dice - but that is exactly why it is needed.
This is correct that you call rolling 2D6 "a roll". However that 2d6 "roll" is made up of two " D6 rolls". Re-rolling one of these " D6 Rolls" is not excluded by initially calling the former a " 2D6 roll".
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Post by: Happyjew
Yes, a "2D6" roll is made up of 2 D6 "rolls" however a 2D6 roll and a D6 roll (which is what chronometron allows you to re-roll) are two different things.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
Happyjew wrote:Yes, a "2D6" roll is made up of 2 D6 "rolls" however a 2D6 roll and a D6 roll (which is what chronometron allows you to re-roll) are two different things.
You realize that you just allowed him to use the Chronometron, right?
If a 2d6 roll is made up of two d6 rolls, then you can re-roll one of those d6 rolls with the Chronometron. No, you cannot 'partially' reroll the 2d6 roll, if that is what you are rerolling; but a Chronometron doesn't reroll a 2d6 roll. It rerolling a d6 roll, and the fact that it also happens to be one of the two rolls which comprise a 2d6 roll is irrelevant.
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Post by: Luide
BeRzErKeR wrote:Happyjew wrote:Yes, a "2D6" roll is made up of 2 D6 "rolls" however a 2D6 roll and a D6 roll (which is what chronometron allows you to re-roll) are two different things.
You realize that you just allowed him to use the Chronometron, right?
If a 2d6 roll is made up of two d6 rolls, then you can re-roll one of those d6 rolls with the Chronometron. No, you cannot 'partially' reroll the 2d6 roll, if that is what you are rerolling; but a Chronometron doesn't reroll a 2d6 roll. It rerolling a d6 roll, and the fact that it also happens to be one of the two rolls which comprise a 2d6 roll is irrelevant.
First, you're forgetting page 2. Second, he means that when you make a 2d6 roll (noun), you take two six sided die and "roll" (verb) them together. Roll (noun) is not the same as "roll" (verb).
But in game terms, 2d6 is definitely not 2 d6 rolls. 2 d6 rolls give you two result sets of 1-6, unlike 2d6 which gives you one result set of 2-12.
Third: Happyjew is not quoting exact rules text so you cannot make any semantic arguments from it.
Edit: Just so people understand the difference between noun and verb, here's example from pg2 brb
"so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score of between 2-12"
Underlined is the noun, italics is the verb. 2d6 is defined as singular entity.
I also don't really see any point in debating this anymore, every reason the "Chrono works on 2d6 rolls" side has presented has been consistently shot down last 9 pages, and it seems like last 5 pages are either a) repeating same arguments from people who haven't bothered to read the thread or b) misrepresenting or misremembering a rule
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Luide wrote:
I also don't really see any point in debating this anymore, every reason the "Chrono works on 2d6 rolls" side has presented has been consistently shot down last 9 pages, and it seems like last 5 pages are either a) repeating same arguments from people who haven't bothered to read the thread or b) misrepresenting or misremembering a rule
As DevianID has shown, there are cases where 2D6 + 1 extra dice = three D6 rolls and there is no other possible interpretation. Each dice must be evaluated individually. Which would allow the chronometron to work in any case.
To call 2D6 "a singular roll" is just a function of the English language. It is not a secret message from the designers to you. A pair of scissors is a single object also.
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Post by: TheGreatAvatar
Nemesor Dave wrote:
You must re-roll all dice...
...unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies what? Something other than all of them.
What would qualify as "other than all of them"? Any number that is explicitly specified as not being the same number as all.
Chronometron tells you to reroll ONE.
Does it make that statement explicitly? Yes. It is as precise as it can be. Re-roll one dice, otherwise re-roll all.
No. Chronometron states:
Necron Codex, page 85, emphasis mine wrote:
A model with chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase.
A d6 ROLL, not a die (or dice), not part of a 2d6 (or (2+x) d6 roll, a d6 ROLL.
You're flat out wrong, pure and simple. Please, for the love of your favorite deity, let this die. A roll is permitted to be rerolled, not an individual die (dice).
This thread is finished.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
TheGreatAvatar wrote:
You're flat out wrong, pure and simple. Please, for the love of your favorite deity, let this die. A roll is permitted to be rerolled, not an individual die (dice).
This thread is finished.
If only you could have come sooner with your opinion and final word, we could have saved the effort of making all of our well thought out arguments and rules lawyering. Unfortunately your argument is not RAW and is not supported by anything but your opinion.
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Post by: Happyjew
ND, he has made the exact same point that has been made a countless (I guess I could count, but am too lazy) number of times on preceding pages. Chronometron allows you to re-roll a D6 roll, NOT a D6. I don't know how that can be any clearer.
Other than GW taking time to put out another FAQ saying (to the effect of) "Chronometron can be used to re-roll a D6 roll. This may not be used to re-roll a part of a multi-dice roll." Somehow I seriously doubt GW will do thar.
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Post by: foolishmortal
kirsanth wrote:Remember, it is impossible to roll a 1 on 2d6.
But it is possible to roll double 1 or double 6 on a 2d6 test. (p50 BRB - perils)
There are a few interesting points to the PRO position here. However at this point, I am not persuaded by RAW that the chronometron can be used to effect part of a 2d6 roll.
Even though I am in the NO position, I disagree with those who argue that the RAW are perfectly clear on this issue. There is some doubt in my mind, just not enough to second guess what seems to be an effort on GW's part to clarify this. I find it much easier to believe that GW faq'd/amended/errata'd some language but missed some other language.
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Post by: McNinja
Nemesor Dave wrote:TheGreatAvatar wrote:
You're flat out wrong, pure and simple. Please, for the love of your favorite deity, let this die. A roll is permitted to be rerolled, not an individual die (dice).
This thread is finished.
If only you could have come sooner with your opinion and final word, we could have saved the effort of making all of our well thought out arguments and rules lawyering. Unfortunately your argument is not RAW and is not supported by anything but your opinion.
It is. It has been for a while. I thought we went over this, with the whole "Sweeping Advance" thing and whatnot. But whatever. I guess if you feel that "explicit" means "well, it doesn't say I CAN'T, so I guess I can" you can re-roll whatever the heck you want to.
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