The chronemetron says that I can reroll any of the unit's D6 rolls.. well that would include Deepstriking, while I wouldn't be able to reroll the scatter dice as it's not a D6 can I reroll one of the two die for distance.

To clarify I am using Veil of Darkness so I don't need to be told that crypteks in a squad can't deepstrike.

Secondly, if I was to use it for a leadership role can I reroll one of the die.. so say I roll a 6/4 I can use it to just reroll the 6..

C-Hydra

Anytime you roll multiple dice (i.e. scatter or Ld) you either re-roll all or none. So you would not be able to re-roll 1 of 2.

But I could reroll both?

No as it only allows the re-roll of a single d6. DS (and blast weapon) scatters are 2d6, same as Ld, so you would have to be able to re-roll both.

This is something I have been curious about as well. If you have 2 chronometrons in a unit can you re-roll...

a deep strike scatter?
a leadership test?

No. The ability only works on a d6 roll. Both of those are 2d6.
You can't combine the abilities.

rigeld2 wrote:You can't combine the abilities.

why?

The ability says to reroll a d6. Nothing about combining them. You have no permission to keep adding Chroms. until you can reroll what you're trying for.

This makes decent sense. If the ability said "give a unit with up to 10 models furious charge," I wouldn't expect you to be able to combine two of them to give a 20 man squad FC.

The only place I can currently see permission possibly coming from is p2 BRB (Re-rolls), and that is only because of an off hand memory of some faq language somewhere saying something about in order to re-roll 2d6 you must be able to re-roll both/all dice. I'll have to poke around and see what I'm mis-remembering.

Point of order:

How were you planning to have 2 eternity crypteks deep-strike at all to begin with?

You can do it with Obyron.

The other problem with re-rolling DS scatter, is the unit getting the re-roll technically is not on board when the re-roll would happen.

Happyjew wrote:Anytime you roll multiple dice (i.e. scatter or Ld) you either re-roll all or none. So you would not be able to re-roll 1 of 2.

Not true. You didn't read all of it.

"If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, Unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."

The rule is "if the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase."

So yes you can use it to re-roll that one D6 for the scatter dice roll. Two if you have two Cryteks.

No, you can't. The scatter roll is a 2d6 roll.
The Chromo only allows a d6 roll to be rerolled.

2d6 != d6.

The rule allows one of those d6 to be re-rolled. That rule allows it.
It is one of the units d6 rolls. just one though.

It doesn't say any one d6 roll it says one of the units d6 rolls.

Scatter dice isn't 2 1d6 rolls, it's a 2d6 roll.
The rules state you must re-roll both or none.
The Chromo allows you to re-roll a d6 roll - note that it does not allow a 2d6 roll.

You're implying that by saying "d6" it's any roll that uses a d6. That makes no sense in the context of the rules as every roll is a d6 roll using that interpretation. Also, general usage in the rules of "d6" to mean "one d6" means you're wrong.

No because it is any and this does allow it because how the rule is worded.

The rule allows one d6 to be re-rolled. So this is the rule that allows this to happen.

They don't have to any 2d6 or any 3d6. you are rolling d6s and the ability allows you to re-roll one of those d6 rolls of your choosing.

So you are wrong bro. This rule is solid.

bladedragon03 wrote:No because it is any and this does allow it because how the rule is worded.

The rule allows one d6 to be re-rolled. So this is the rule that allows this to happen.

They don't have to any 2d6 or any 3d6. you are rolling d6s and the ability allows you to re-roll one of those d6 rolls of your choosing.

So you are wrong bro. This rule is solid.

...

page 30 under Blast wrote:Roll the scatter dice and 2D6
to see where the shot lands.

You cannot use a Chrono to re-toll a scatter shot.
Heck, Blast weapons even specify what happens with re-rolls!

same page wrote:Blast weapons and re-rolls
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit and
chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player
must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

See how it says 2d6? Not 2 d6?

Since you can only re-roll one, and the rules require you to be able to re-roll both, you can't re-roll either.
And before you mention Deep Strike being different:

page 95 wrote:If a scatter
occurs, roll 2D6 to see how many inches the model
moves away from the intended position.

Ok dude the codex trumps the BRB so that alone allows this to happen. Also I was never talking about the scatter die just the 2d6 you also roll with it. They are 2 six sided dice after all. not a whole different kind of die.

If you don't believe me then Call gw and ask them.

bladedragon03 wrote:Ok dude the codex trumps the BRB so that alone allows this to happen.

If you don't believe me then Call gw and ask them.

Again - wrong.
Specific trumps General. There's nothing specific here - the Codex is allowing you to re-roll a d6. It does not allow you to re-roll a d6 out of a 2d6 roll.

A very similar ruling was made on the wolf standard which allows you to reroll all rolls of '1' on a D6.

Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bladedragon03 wrote:If you don't believe me then Call gw and ask them.

Also, this is not a productive response as GW Customer Service is not a reliable source of rules answers.

Look guys the GW guy on the phone told me all of that. So I don't know what else to tell you other then you guys are looking into this way to hard.

Just face the fact that it allow one of the 6s rolls. It doesn't say any one of your one d6 rolls.

bladedragon03 wrote:Look guys the GW guy on the phone told me all of that. So I don't know what else to tell you other then you guys are looking into this way to hard.

Just face the fact that it allow one of the 6s rolls. It doesn't say any one of your one d6 rolls.

I don't care what the Prince of Wales told you on the phone - the tenets of this forum say that's not admissible.

And I will not face the fact that what you're telling me is against the rules.
edit: That line should be "And I will face the fact that what you're telling me is against the rules and will therefore not play that way nor allow others to.

bladedragon03 wrote:Look guys the GW guy on the phone told me all of that. So I don't know what else to tell you other then you guys are looking into this way to hard.

Just face the fact that it allow one of the 6s rolls. It doesn't say any one of your one d6 rolls.

I suggest you read the rules for this sub-forum: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

Either way the rule allows one of those d6 to be rerolled because of how it's worded. Yes you are rolling 2d6 but the rule allows you to reroll one of the d6's that are rolled.

Even the rule on page 2 says it can. This is because the rule is granting it to happen.

And all re-rolls for multiple dice be it 2d6, 3d6 or even 15d6, you are required to re-roll all the dice, not some of them.

Unless the rule that is allowing the re-roll allows it which Chro. does.

bladedragon03 wrote:Unless the rule that is allowing the re-roll allows it which Chro. does.

Quote where it is more specific than page 2.

Page 2 says [paraphrased] if you want to re-roll a multi-die roll, you have to re-roll all of them.
Chrono does not have something that allows you to re-roll only one die out of a set.

The unit may re-roll one of the d6 rolls. The unit is rolling 2d6 for the scatter. One of those D6 can be re-rolled. Codex Trumps the BRB.

Do they really have to put in writing that this can be used on XD6 as well?

You can't assault out of deep strike but a certain ork unit can because the codex trumps the BRB.

And now I'm done with this page.

Again, WRONG!
SPECIFIC trumps GENERAL.
You have permission to re-roll 1 1d6. not one-half of a 2d6. Even if your statement was true, that you could re-roll one of the two dice, The units must be on the table and in-play. Until you have the whole unit in play (which is after you roll for DS scatter), you cannot use the ability.

Wow.... Just wow.

bladedragon03 wrote:The unit may re-roll one of the d6 rolls. The unit is rolling 2d6 for the scatter. One of those D6 can be re-rolled. Codex Trumps the BRB.

Wrong, specific trumps general.

Do they really have to put in writing that this can be used on XD6 as well?

Yes. Absolutely. Because the rules already say that if you want to re-roll Xd6, you have to be able to re-roll them all.
To counter that you have to have specific allowance.

You can't assault out of deep strike but a certain ork unit can because the codex trumps the BRB.

That Ork unit can because specific overrides general. In general you can't, that unit has a rule that allows it to. There are cases where the BRB trumps itself, and where the BRB trumps codexes.

And now I'm done with this page.

I'm sorry you prefer being wrong.

Happyjew wrote:Again, WRONG!
SPECIFIC trumps GENERAL.
You have permission to re-roll 1 1d6. not one-half of a 2d6. Even if your statement was true, that you could re-roll one of the two dice, The units must be on the table and in-play. Until you have the whole unit in play (which is after you roll for DS scatter), you cannot use the ability.

Ok no. Imot. does not need to be on the board to be able to use the storm or to keep it in play. Also if a lord with Res. Orb dies and some of the unit they are not in play but still get the Res. Orb bonus for that phase.

Because it states that you can re-roll one of the units d6 roll for each phase.

It would be done in the movement phase and there for can be re-rolled. It doesn't have to state that because it's any d6 that is rolled that phase can be re-rolled. But only one per phase.

I'm not playing wrong I'm playing right and you are just being way to picky. Just like those other people saying that a unit and a Dred can't be sucked in the monolith portal because the models are facing away from it.

I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.

bladedragon03 wrote:I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.

And you haven't cited one thing to refute the fact that you have to re-roll all the dice in a set. Just one is all I ask.

You aren't playing right, and I'm not being picky. This isn't even pedantic. 1 does not equal more than one.

bladedragon03 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Again, WRONG!
SPECIFIC trumps GENERAL.
You have permission to re-roll 1 1d6. not one-half of a 2d6. Even if your statement was true, that you could re-roll one of the two dice, The units must be on the table and in-play. Until you have the whole unit in play (which is after you roll for DS scatter), you cannot use the ability.

Ok no. Imot. does not need to be on the board to be able to use the storm or to keep it in play. Also if a lord with Res. Orb dies and some of the unit they are not in play but still get the Res. Orb bonus for that phase.

Because it states that you can re-roll one of the units d6 roll for each phase.

It would be done in the movement phase and there for can be re-rolled. It doesn't have to state that because it's any d6 that is rolled that phase can be re-rolled. But only one per phase.

I'm not playing wrong I'm playing right and you are just being way to picky. Just like those other people saying that a unit and a Dred can't be sucked in the monolith portal because the models are facing away from it.

I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.

Picky? No, not really. Deep-Striking is a units 2d6 roll. Rolling to hit, wound, penetrate, move through difficult terrain, and damage a vehicle are a unit's D6 roll. You can only re-roll a D6 roll, not part of a 2d6 roll, because you don't roll a d6 then roll another d6 separately; you roll 2d6, making the roll a 2d6 roll, not a d6 roll. Hopefully this makes a bit more sense to you.

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:I play right as intended not picky wrong. Good argument guys.

And you haven't cited one thing to refute the fact that you have to re-roll all the dice in a set. Just one is all I ask.

You aren't playing right, and I'm not being picky. This isn't even pedantic. 1 does not equal more than one.

Ok after talking to my friend. You are right and I'm wrong. Even though it was intended the way I'm stating it. You are right because of how it's wrote. Sorry i was wrong in my english. But how I'm stating it is how it was intended.

How you think it was intended. You can't prove intent one way or the other.

Without a statement from the author declaring otherwise, there is no reason to believe that what was written is not exactly what he intended.

Talking to the GW and that's how they intended it to be. Just bad wording. That's why they make FAQ and Errata. They just never really came across this problem before. But this is how they told me they intended it to be.

bladedragon03 wrote:Talking to the GW and that's how they intended it to be. Just bad wording...

Except the mail order person who answered the phone when you called doesn't know that. He doesn't have some super secret FAQ that we don't to answer a question. Its nothing more than his opinion, not a cold hard fact.

Edit: question was answered.


2d6 = 1d6 + 1d6.

The codex SPECIFICALLY says you can reroll one of those 1d6.

There is no 2d6. A 2d6 means you have 2 - 1d6.

Also, crypteks cannot arrive via deepstrike. The guy is asking about Veil of Darkness. So the cryptek has to already be on the board to use it. He's already on the board, using Veil, he can use his cronometron too.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Edit: question was answered.


2d6 = 1d6 + 1d6.

The codex SPECIFICALLY says you can reroll one of those 1d6.

There is no 2d6. A 2d6 means you have 2 - 1d6.

Page 2 of the BGB seems to disagree with you.

"if you re-roll a 2D6 or a 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Also, crypteks cannot arrive via deepstrike. The guy is asking about Veil of Darkness. So the cryptek has to already be on the board to use it. He's already on the board, using Veil, he can use his cronometron too.

And the Necron FAQ seems to disagree with you here. The FAQ explicitly states that a unit may VoD onto the board from reserve.

azazel the cat wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Edit: question was answered.


2d6 = 1d6 + 1d6.

The codex SPECIFICALLY says you can reroll one of those 1d6.

There is no 2d6. A 2d6 means you have 2 - 1d6.

Page 2 of the BGB seems to disagree with you.

"if you re-roll a 2D6 or a 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"

The codex specifically allows otherwise - it says 1d6. 2d6 means you are rolling two dice. The codex specifies to re-roll one of those.

azazel the cat wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Also, crypteks cannot arrive via deepstrike. The guy is asking about Veil of Darkness. So the cryptek has to already be on the board to use it. He's already on the board, using Veil, he can use his cronometron too.

And the Necron FAQ seems to disagree with you here. The FAQ explicitly states that a unit may VoD onto the board from reserve.

The sequence in this case is a fine distinction but important. The unit with the cryptek rolls for reserves and if success full, gets to move on the board. It cannot be placed in reserve as a deepstrike unit because crypteks do not have the deepstrike rule.

When the unit moves, to move on the board, it may use the Veil to move (using deepstrike rules). You still rolled for reserves, and essentially are walking onto the board but using Veil as your movement.

This is important because if a cryptek was just allowed to deepstrike, then it could join a unit of deathmarks and deepstrike in your opponents turn. It doesn't have the deepstrike rule, so the unit cannot.

"The codex specifically allows otherwise - it says 1d6. 2d6 means you are rolling two dice. The codex specifies to re-roll one of those. "

No, it does not specifically allow otherwise. Again, you dont understand what specific means.

In order to reroll one of a 2D6 roll, the special rule HAS to say "you may reroll one D6 o f a multiple D6 roll", or similar. Saying you can reroll a single D6 doesnt cut it

nosferatu1001 wrote:"The codex specifically allows otherwise - it says 1d6. 2d6 means you are rolling two dice. The codex specifies to re-roll one of those. "

No, it does not specifically allow otherwise. Again, you dont understand what specific means.

In order to reroll one of a 2D6 roll, the special rule HAS to say "you may reroll one D6 o f a multiple D6 roll", or similar. Saying you can reroll a single D6 doesnt cut it

The BRB says you must reroll the entire roll, unless a different number of dice is specified. 2d6, 3d6 is not an item in itself, it is referring to 1d6 + 1d6, or 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d6. If I hand you three dice and say roll 3d6, and then say reroll 1d6. You wouldn't say "i can't because i didn't roll 1d6, i rolled 3d6".

The rulebook explains that 2d6 is an abbreviation for rolling two dice, its not a keyword or a condition. It just means 2 dice.

The codex will never say "reroll 1d6 of 2d6, and 3d6, oh and its okay if its 4d6 too" and even many more dice as you can think of. It just need to say you can reroll 1d6, meaning 1 of as many dice as you're required to roll!

That same argument could be said for mass shooting that you roll together. I roll 20 dice to hit for my shooting necrons, and i can reroll 1d6, oh but wait, its not 1d6, its 20 dice. Are you really saying this?

How cool would it be if there was a 2D6 Die?
It would be like a 36 sided object with six 7s, five 5s and 6s, etc.

ND - yes, yes it is a different roll. All it would have to do is say "this can be one of a multiple D6 roll", so stop being quite so obtuse in your responses.

If you dont want to follow the rules - fine, this is just another example of NDhammer40k. Meanwhile everyone else will play it correctly

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - yes, yes it is a different roll. All it would have to do is say "this can be one of a multiple D6 roll", so stop being quite so obtuse in your responses.

If you dont want to follow the rules - fine, this is just another example of NDhammer40k. Meanwhile everyone else will play it correctly

The Codex will not over explain every little detail. The actual wording is "...may reroll one of his D6 rolls". It doesn't even specify 1d6 or 2d6. Just "D6".

2d6 is - two D6 rolls. For leadership he rolls two D6. Now he may reroll one of his D6 rolls. Is that not specific enough for you?

nosferatu1001 wrote:, this is just another example of NDhammer40k. Meanwhile everyone else will play it correctly

These are the sort of lines we can do without please. Thanks.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
The Codex will not over explain every little detail. The actual wording is "...may reroll one of his D6 rolls". It doesn't even specify 1d6 or 2d6. Just "D6".

2d6 is - two D6 rolls. For leadership he rolls two D6. Now he may reroll one of his D6 rolls. Is that not specific enough for you?

A 1D6 roll is a D6 roll. When you roll 2D6 are you rolling a D6 roll? No, you are rolling a 2D6 roll.

Again, specific means something different than what you think it does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
The Codex will not over explain every little detail. The actual wording is "...may reroll one of his D6 rolls". It doesn't even specify 1d6 or 2d6. Just "D6".

2d6 is - two D6 rolls. For leadership he rolls two D6. Now he may reroll one of his D6 rolls. Is that not specific enough for you?

A 1D6 roll is a D6 roll. When you roll 2D6 are you rolling a D6 roll? No, you are rolling a 2D6 roll.

Again, specific means something different than what you think it does.

Yes, when you roll 2D6 you are making two D6 rolls. You may reroll one. The codex does not say you may reroll one of your 1D6 rolls. 2d6 is not a category of roll. It is just the number of dice.

Roll two dice. Now you may now reroll one. Has it specified how many? Yes, one.

If it was," you may reroll one of your rolls", that is not specific, so the BRB says you must reroll all. In that case you cannot choose to only roll one D6.

The codex says reroll one D6. That is specific so you're not confused and think you can reroll all of them. Just reroll one of your D6 out of any number of dice used for the roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Yes, when you roll 2D6 you are making two D6 rolls. You may reroll one. The codex does not say you may reroll one of your 1D6 rolls. 2d6 is not a category of roll. It is just the number of dice.

page 2 wrote:
Almost all of the dice rolls in
Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually
referred to as ‘D6’).

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the
indicated number of dice and add the scores together,
so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for
a score of between 2-12. Another method is to
multiply the score of a dice by a certain amount, such
as D6x5 for a total between 5 and 30. Finally, a
combination of methods may be used, such as 3D6-3
giving a total of 0-15.

If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.

There is nothing in the Chrono rule that explicitly specifies.

Roll two dice. Now you may now reroll one. Has it specified how many? Yes, one.

Yes -but it did not explicitly say that that one die can be part of a multi-d6 roll.

The codex says reroll one D6. That is specific so you're not confused and think you can reroll all of them. Just reroll one of your D6 out of any number of dice used for the roll.

Except that's not how the rules work.

Most times multiple d6 are rolled it is a shortcut - a specifically allowed one. They are unique instances of 1d6 rolls done simultaneously.
i.e. 1d6 twice to represent two attack rolls.

An actual roll of multiple d6 is different, as it is finding the value of the total roll - thus the mention that 2d6 is to get 2-12. They are unique instance of a single roll of xd6.
i.e. 2d6 represents a single Leadership roll.

If you did not roll 1d6, you cannot re-roll 1d6.

Otherwise, everyone else said it, and rigeld2 spelled it out.

kirsanth wrote:Most times multiple d6 are rolled it is a shortcut - a specifically allowed one. They are unique instances of 1d6 rolls done simultaneously.
i.e. 1d6 twice to represent two attack rolls.

An actual roll of multiple d6 is different, as it is finding the value of the total roll - thus the mention that 2d6 is to get 2-12. They are unique instance of a single roll of xd6.
i.e. 2d6 represents a single Leadership roll.

If you did not roll 1d6, you cannot re-roll 1d6.

Otherwise, everyone else said it, and rigeld2 spelled it out.

To play Devil's Advocate then...

Since we are treating the terms 2d6 and 1d6 as having specific meaning within the confines of the game, does the Chrono rule specifically mention that you are allowed to roll a 1d6? Or does it refer to just d6. If it's the former, then yes I agree with you, if it's the later then I would suggest that the Chrono rule doesn't care about 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 nomenclature. If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule,

If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise.

-Yad

d6 and 1d6 are synonymous in the rules.

Interesting disagreement. I see a strong RAI argument for a partial re-roll of a Xd6. When I first read the new necron codex, that's what I thought chronometron allowed. I used it to re-roll parts of deep strike scatter and morale tests.

When I try to figure out RAI, I try to see the rule as though I just read it for the first time and there is no hidden meaning. I don't think GW purposefully makes these things complicated. We might enjoy thinking so, but that says more about us than them.

I agree that RAW p2 BRB gives a tacit equality between "dice" and "d6". IMO, this equality does not trump the strong language in the re-rerolls rules box - "unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"

GW might have intended you to be able to re-roll part of a Xd6, but RAW I don't think you can.

I don't think the intent is there even. I don't see how it's grey at all.

rigeld2 wrote:I don't think the intent is there even. I don't see how it's grey at all.

Again, my argument for the intent is a very personal one. It does not translate well into dry text. I will try to break it down.

A) I don't think GW purposefully makes these things that complicated. (debatable - especially here, but bear with me)
B) I am a reasonably intelligent and objective person. (debatable - especially by ex-girlfriends)
C) When I first read the rule for chronometron in the new necron codex, I thought you could re-roll part of a Xd6 roll.
D) After some thought and re-reading p2 BRB and some faq language, I saw that RAW it did not allow it, mostly because of the "explicitly specifies otherwise"

Thus I am left with an impression that RAI it's allowed, RAW it is not.

It's not complicated - to make it complicated you have to inject rules. It's extremely simple - you can't re-roll multi-d6 rolls unless you're allowed to. Chrono doesn't allow you to.

To argue that it was intended, you have to add words to the Chrono rule. (well, argue that they just left words out). To me, this does not make sense.

BTW - I don't disagree with #2.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but IMO the simplest way of interpreting the rule allows for the re-roll. In 40k, you often roll dice. Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice (in the US, I would say 'die' as the singular, aka d6 per page 2 BRB)

Any further interpretation is more complicated. Not wrong, but more complicated. It requires more steps and more rigorous thinking. If it is immediately obvious to one person, I would say that is more likely due to that person's experience and strong critical thinking skills, not due to clear wording on GW's part.

I think that if you showed a game of 40k to a group of small children, read them the chronometron rule, rolled 2d6, picked up one of the dice and asked them "can I use my chronometron to re-roll this?" most would say yes.

We are not small children, but that is not a failing on their part nor an achievement on ours. It's just a difference.

So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?

-Yad

Except the BRB states the differenc e between D6 and 2d6 rolls. D6s are to wound, to hit, vehicle pen, vehicle damage, armor saves, invuln saves, any save, and falling back, i.e. any roll that only uses a single d6 in its roll. Anything else is an Xd6 roll, and is not allowed by the Chronometron.

Yad wrote:So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?

-Yad

No, according to page 2 in the BRB, a 2d6 roll is explicitly different from a 1d6 roll, and to re-roll a 2d6 roll you must be able to re-roll both dice.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yad wrote:So a d6 is equal to a 1d6, but a 1d6 is not part of a 2d6?

-Yad

No, according to page 2 in the BRB, a 2d6 roll is explicitly different from a 1d6 roll, and to re-roll a 2d6 roll you must be able to re-roll both dice.

...unless a rule specifically allows you to do so.

Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6? Again, I don't have my BRB with me at the moment, but if that text is not there you've got a problem when you start treating 1d6, 2d6, & 3d6 as discreet entities.

If you're treating the 2d6 as inviolate, meaning that there is no way a reference to d6 can refer to one of the d6 dice that comprises a 2d6 roll then I would not find fault with your argument. I think though that the Chrono rule should have read, ...re-roll one of his 1d6 rolls for each phase (this assumes that d6 and 1d6 are not synonymous)

-Yad

"Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as 'd6')."

Edit: It's possible we're being too broad in our reading of the last sentence in re-rolls on p2. I could also interpret that as saying "when called upon to re-roll Xd6, you must re-roll all X dice" Chronometron is not calling for an Xd6 re-roll. It calls for the re-roll of a single die.

Yad wrote:Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6?

Math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule

This can not work. xD6 is a roll of xD6, not x rolls of D6, so you cannot re-roll part of it - you never rolled the D6, you rolled xD6.

(The obvious exception to this should be obvious; where x=1)

kirsanth wrote:

Yad wrote:Just to clarify, why is d6 synonymous with 1d6?

Math.

Obviously I meant within the context of the rules. If you're treating 2d6, 1d6 as 'things' you need to show, in the rules, that d6 is the same as 1d6.

kirsanth wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:If you throw any kind of Xd6 you get to reroll one of them. This would fall under the, later part of the following rule

This can not work. xD6 is a roll of xD6, not x rolls of D6, so you cannot re-roll part of it - you never rolled the D6, you rolled xD6.

(The obvious exception to this should be obvious; where x=1)

Hmm, you can't say d6 is synonymous with 1d6 and then say that two 1d6's are not synonymous with 2d6 (Math )

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Hmm, you can't say d6 is synonymous with 1d6 and then say that two 1d6's are not synonymous with 2d6 (Math )

-Yad

In this specific case you can, because Xd6 is used as a jargon term in the 40k ruleset. It literally means something different than it does in other contexts; the 40k ruleset tells you that a roll of 2d6, or a roll of 3d6, is not multiple individual d6 rolls but one BIG roll, and all the dice which are part of it are 'joined at the hip', so to speak. You can't pick one up and re-roll it without picking up all the others and re-rolling them, too.

That is, there is a distinction made between rolling 1d6 twice, and rolling 2d6, which doesn't exist in the real world but does in Warhammer 40k.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That is, there is a distinction made between rolling 1d6 twice, and rolling 2d6, which doesn't exist in the real world but does in Warhammer 40k.

It exists there too.

It is impossible to get 1 on 2d6, but not when rolling 1 d6 twice. Doing that can get you two ones.

2d6 is (1d6+1d6 for a result of 2-12). 2 1d6's is (1d6,1d6 for a result of 1-6, 1-6).

kirsanth wrote:

It is impossible to get 1 on 2d6, but not when rolling 1 d6 twice. Doing that can get you two ones.

But the mechanic used for most rolls in 40k seems to indicate that you consider the dice independently as well as adding the total; that's why this argument crops up in the first place, and it has to be clarified that in 40k they're different things, even though in most cases they are treated identically. You can certainly roll a 1 with, for instance, a Bloodfeeder, even though it's a 2d6 roll.

I wonder if there is any rules language in the psycic tests section that would be helpful here. Doesn't perils of the warp say something about double sixs and double ones? If GW wanted there to be a distinction why didn't they say 12 or 2?

Edit: found it - page 50 BRB (5th) - "a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened"

Because you can be forced to take psychic checks on more than 2D6 (Farseers and SitW come to mind) and you perils on *any* double-1 or double-6, not just on a result of 2 or 12

It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

Thissomuch.

kirsanth, we agree too much.

kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

Right. I'm not disagreeing with you; I was attempting to present an explanation for why that was true to Yad.

kirsanth wrote:It does not say may re-roll a(ny) D6.

It says may re-roll a D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is a not a D6 roll.

You may reroll one D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is two D6 rolls.

A 1D6 roll is one D6 roll.

If you're going to this extreme then anywhere you find a roll of 1D6, it can't be rerolled because it is not a "D6" it is a 1D6. If you're demanding this precision in the language, you can't pick and choose where you apply it.

If you're going to say a D6 = 1D6, then 2D6 is D6 + D6 of which one may be rerolled and the rule works in all cases, 1D6, 2D, xD6.

No. A d6 is the same thing as 1d6, but a 2d6 roll is different. You accomplish a 2d6 roll by rolling 2 d6's, but it is not the same thing as a d6 plus a d6.

Not that this is spelled out in the rule-- oh wait, Nevermind.

rigeld2 wrote:

page 2 wrote:Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as ‘D6’).

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together, so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together for a score of between 2-12. Another method is to multiply the score of a dice by a certain amount, such as D6x5 for a total between 5 and 30. Finally, a combination of methods may be used, such as 3D6-3 giving a total of 0-15.

If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise.

There is nothing in the Chrono rule that explicitly specifies that it can be used to re-roll one die out of the 2d6 roll.

pretre wrote:A very similar ruling was made on the wolf standard which allows you to reroll all rolls of '1' on a D6.

Space Wolf FAQ. wrote: Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a single roll, not address them individually.

The rules here are clear, if counter-intuitive to some. A 2d6 roll or 3d6 roll is considered, within the context of the 40k rules, to be a separate and distinct thing from a 1d6 roll or a pair of 1d6 rolls. Chronometron only allows re-rolling single d6s.

Mannahnin said it better

Im a huge necron player and i would love to re-roll one d6 with the chronometron, but the simple fact is you cant.

It lets you reroll a SINGLE d6 roll per phase.... Ie reanimation protocol, a shot, dangerous terrain check, etc.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

You may reroll one D6 roll.

A 2D6 roll is two D6 rolls.

A 1D6 roll is one D6 roll.

If you're going to this extreme then anywhere you find a roll of 1D6, it can't be rerolled because it is not a "D6" it is a 1D6. If you're demanding this precision in the language, you can't pick and choose where you apply it.

If you're going to say a D6 = 1D6, then 2D6 is D6 + D6 of which one may be rerolled and the rule works in all cases, 1D6, 2D, xD6.

In general, that is in the real world, you're basically correct. The act of rolling 2d6 is the same as the act of rolling two d6's; that's just definitional.

But within the 40k ruleset, there exists a different definition of '2d6 roll', or '3d6 roll', or 'Anynumberthatisn't1d6 roll'; what I'm calling Xd6, for short. In 40k, rolling Xd6 is not, for the purposes of applying the rules of the game, the same as rolling enough d6's to add up to Xd6. You can't treat them the same.

In shooting, you roll a number of d6s depending on the size of the unit and what weapons they are using, BUT each roll is individual. If I'm shooting with, say, 30 Shoota Boyz, I do NOT roll 60d6; rather I roll d6 60 separate times. In 40k, those two are different. Since a Chronometron allows you to reroll a d6, if my Orks somehow had a Chronometron, I could reroll one of those dice.

If I'm Deep Striking some Stormboyz with Zagstruck, I do NOT roll a d6 two separate times; rather I roll 2d6. Again, in the context of 40k, those aren't the same thing. Since a Chronometron allows you to roll a d6, not 2d6, I could not use it to reroll Scatter. Why? Because Scatter is a single roll; the fact that it happens to use two individual dice is immaterial, for the purposes of the rules of the game.

Cryage wrote:Im a huge necron player and i would love to re-roll one d6 with the chronometron, but the simple fact is you cant.

It lets you reroll a SINGLE d6 roll per phase.... Ie reanimation protocol, a shot, dangerous terrain check, etc.

I'm also a Blood Angels player and I think a Necron player should be able to play it as able to reroll a 1 D6 out of 2 D6 when playing against me. It really doesn't change how I read these rules.

Necron Codex.
"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase."

BRB
"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."

The BRB sentence says you can't re-roll less that the full number of dice unless the rule states you can re-roll a lower number than the total dice. Meaning, if the rule doesn't specify SOME or ALL then re-roll ALL.

The Necron codex specifies re-roll ONE.

Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling? You're making TWO D6 rolls. Re-roll ONE of them.

RAW, re-rolling one dice of the two dice you roll for a leadership test makes perfect sense. Is there any other example of a rule where any other interpretation would be more clear? Any precedent to think otherwise?

Nemesor Dave wrote:Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling?

This is your error.

Editing for redundancy:
The rules care about the roll itself.

How many [1]D6 [= 1 to 6] rolls are you making? 0
You are making a single 2D6 [= 2 to 12] roll.

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Leadership roll, rolling a 2D6, how many D6's are you rolling?

This is your error.

Notice the rule does not say you can re-roll one of your 1D6 rolls.

Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

Nemesor Dave wrote:Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

Other than page 2 of the main rules?

Editing to add:
I somewhat apologize for someone misreading because this has been posted - in this thread.

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

Other than page 2 of the main rules?

Editing to add:
I somewhat apologize for someone misreading because this has be posted - in this thread.

Yes, other than page 2 which only clarifies that if the rule only gives an unspecified number of dice - a "reroll" then you must reroll all dice and not pick and choose which ones to reroll. It is not saying the other way around, that a rule must specify "1 of 2 dice" or "2 of 3 dice". Its saying when the number of dice to re-roll isn't specified, reroll all.

If this is a matter of "40k" rules convention, surely there are plenty of other examples of rules that work the same way you're saying they should work.

DOes the Chrono specify you can reroll one of the dice in a 2D6+ roll? No.
That means it HASNT specified that it can, so it cant

Again, this is an error in understanding of what "specific" means, same with SA vs EL

nosferatu1001 wrote:DOes the Chrono specify you can reroll one of the dice in a 2D6+ roll? No.
That means it HASNT specified that it can, so it cant

Again, this is an error in understanding of what "specific" means, same with SA vs EL

Edit: bad example.

Chronometron and a leadership 2D6 roll, you can only reroll one dice. Because it specifies you may re-roll ONE.

This is what this means by "specific".

Nemesor Dave wrote:Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

The Space Wolf FAQ ruling on Wolf Standard, which has been quoted twice now. It tells us clearly that a 2d6 roll is NOT two rolls a single d6. It's a different thing. This is a clarification, bear in mind, not an eratta, so it applies equally to the Chronometron or anything else which allows re-rolling a d6.

Mannahnin wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Explain. Give an example of another rule that clearly shows that there is such thing as "A 2d6 roll".

The Space Wolf FAQ ruling on Wolf Standard, which has been quoted twice now. It tells us clearly that a 2d6 roll is NOT two rolls a single d6. It's a different thing. This is a clarification, bear in mind, not an eratta, so it applies equally to the Chronometron or anything else which allows re-rolling a d6.

Wolf standard:
"For the duration of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1"

Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually.

Yes, when evaluating the result of a 2D6 roll, this clarifies that you can't consider the dice separately as 1 + 1. The roll is a roll of 2 and will never be less than 2.

The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6. It is quite possible to reroll a single D6 of two D6's rolled.

This example is regarding the result of the roll, not the numbers of dice involved. A better example would help this debate.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.

You are wrong.

Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.

You are wrong.

Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].

Again from the FAQ emphasis on this part: "when making a 2D6 result"

What must you do?

"you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually. "

We are not considering the 2D6 result. We are considering how many dice we can reroll. 2D6 is by definition two dice. Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.

Nemesor Dave wrote: Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.

No. It lets you re-roll a [single] d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is not a [single] d6 roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:We are not considering the 2D6 result.

We are, however, considering a 2d6 roll.

Editing out the part where I said you were considering a 2d6 roll because you are not.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The cronometron is worded differently. It is allowing you to reroll one D6.

You are wrong.

Editing to repeat:
It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
Not a[any] single d6 from a[ny] roll [that may or may not have been a d6 roll].

Again from the FAQ emphasis on this part: "when making a 2D6 result"

What must you do?

"you must count both dice as a single roll, not address them individually. "

We are not considering the 2D6 result.

Yes, we most certainly are. On a Leadership roll or Scatter distance roll, we roll two dice and sum them to get a result between two and twelve. Page 2 clarifies that this is called a "2d6 roll", and that you may not re-roll one of the component dice unless you have a rule explicitly saying otherwise. The Wolf Standard ruling reiterates and reinforces the point. You may not look at those two component die rolls individually and re-roll either of them if it happens to be a 1. Just as you may not use a rule which allows you to re-roll "a d6 roll" to re-roll one of the component dice.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

We are not considering the 2D6 result. We are considering how many dice we can reroll. 2D6 is by definition two dice. Chronometron lets you re-roll one of them.

This is where you go wrong. That's not necessarily true in the 40k ruleset.

In 40k, 2d6 is by definition 2-12. You are not allowed to split 2-12 into 1-6 + 1-6, which is what you're trying to do here, except in a few specifically defined circumstances (determining PotW, for instance).

A d6 roll is by definition different from a 2d6 roll. The Chrono allows you to re-roll a d6 - meaning you made a d6 roll in the first place.

I see both sides of this debate.

Quote are mine for emphasis:
1. Rolling 2D6 is a "2D6 roll". Chronometron lets you re-roll one "D6 roll". If the roll contains more than one dice, it is not a "D6 roll".

2. Rolling 2D6 is two D6 rolls. Chronometron lets you reroll one "D6" roll.

The Spacewolf FAQ would clarify this except it is regarding the result of the roll, not the number of dice. A better example would help clear this up if there is one.

The Warptime Chaos FAQ doesn't contradict #2, but it doesn't confirm it either.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all. If you interpret this as meaning you must specify 2d6 to reroll 2d6, or specify 3d6 to reroll 3d6, then it leaves wide open the option to reroll fewer than the full number of dice when you're allowed to reroll and doesn't fit the context either.. In this case, if I was allowed to re-roll leadership I could just reroll 1D6 if I chose and there would be no rule against it.

Any other examples of a multi dice roll being counted as a single "roll" and not multiple dice being rolled?

The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.

That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

Any other examples of a multi dice roll being counted as a single "roll" and not multiple dice being rolled?

Scatter. You have to re-roll all the dice or none.

Mannahnin wrote:The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.

That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

I've seen this rule as quoted to mean what I am saying it means. If it means what you are saying then what stops someone from using Brother Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye from the Blood Angels Codex and just rerolling 1D6 of a leadership roll?

(I would start my own thread, but I am asking in regards specifically to the subject of this thread)

Corbulo has a totally different rule. All-seeing Eye allows you to re-roll any one roll you have just made. It doesn't specify d6 or 2d6 or any number. And it gives examples both of 1d6 rolls and 2d6 rolls.

So he can choose a Leadership test just as easily as a Dangerous Terrain test.

But he still has to re-roll all the dice if he's picking a leadership test. Per the rules on page 2.

BRB page 2, sidebar titled "Re-rolls & Roll-offs wrote:If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise

Quoted here for clarity.

So, if you choose to reroll a roll of 2d6 or 3d6, you cannot reroll fewer than the maximum number, unless the rule tells you explicitly that you can, which I interpret to mean that the rule must include "You may reroll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll" or equivalent language.

Mannahnin wrote:The Spacewolf FAQ is directly applicable. Both Leadership tests and Scatter distance rolls use 2d6 rolls. Both give a result which is a sum of two dice, and a result between two and twelve. Both page 2 and the FAQ answer make clear that you can't pick out one die from a 2d6 roll.

BRB page 2 is simply stating that if a rule doesn't specify the number of dice to re-roll, you must re-roll all.

That's not what it says at all. It says that you can't re-roll one die out of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, unless you have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

So you must re-roll both leadership dice, unless explicitly specified otherwise. In this case that the chronometron specifies one D6 is otherwise. I believe stating that its one D6 satisfies this requirement of it being specified as a number different from the number of dice rolled.

The Space Wolf FAQ says the wolf standard doesn't apply because it's :"When making a 2D result" then "not address them individually." Its not a universal statement. I find this in many RAW arguments, taking a single phrase out of a sentence and applying it alone as a rule. This is only regarding how you make the result of 2D6. Chronometron doesn't care about the result, but only the number of dice.

I agree the Brother Corubulo ability works just fine with this rule.

I agree that it's implied you should only be allowed to re-roll a roll that consists of a single D6, but so far I don't see it in the RAW.

You have permission to re-roll a d6. You don't have permission to re-roll 2d6. Since the rules state you must re-roll both, and you don't have permission to, you can't.

You have permission to re-roll a d6, not part of a Xd6 roll.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

BRB page 2, sidebar titled "Re-rolls & Roll-offs wrote:If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise

Quoted here for clarity.

So, if you choose to reroll a roll of 2d6 or 3d6, you cannot reroll fewer than the maximum number, unless the rule tells you explicitly that you can, which I interpret to mean that the rule must include "You may reroll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll" or equivalent language.

Isn't saying "you may re-roll one" the same as "you may reroll one of any number of dice?" Both are specifying a number of dice different than the 2D6. The second example is more specific, however both a specific about the number being different.

No, it's not. The former says you may re-roll one - and we've established that 1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
The latter says one of many - which is what would be required.

No. You need a statement that "You may use this re-roll to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll" or the equivalent.

Page 2 defines that there are multiple distinct types of rolls, and that re-rolls for one do not apply to the others.

A 1d6 roll is one type of roll.
A 2d6 roll is another type of roll.
A 3d6 roll is another type of roll.

Chronometron only allows you to re-roll the first. All-Seeing eye allows you to re-roll any of them. Neither roll allows you to pick out and re-roll one die out of the second or third types.

Hmmm. . . I do actually see one other potential argument, which is that the sidebar only says that you must re-roll all the dice if you are specifically re-rolling "a 2d6 or 3d6 roll". Arguably, that leaves room to say that you're NOT re-rolling a 2d6 or 3d6 roll; you're just re-rolling a single d6. That interpretation would narrow the applicability of the sidebar, but it would still be an important rule because it still prevents people who have a rule that allows to "re-roll a failed Leadership check" or something similar from re-rolling only one of the two dice.

Both strictures apply. You can't pick out a single die, nor are a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll interchangeable.

Mannahnin wrote:Both strictures apply. You can't pick out a single die, nor are a 1d6 roll and a 2d6 roll interchangeable.

That's my interpretation, too; just wanted to bring up the other potential argument because I hadn't seen it made.

rigeld2 wrote:No, it's not. The former says you may re-roll one - and we've established that 1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
The latter says one of many - which is what would be required.

"you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them"

If you roll two dice and I tell you to re-roll one of them:

Did I tell you to roll two? No. Did I "specifically tell you otherwise" by saying "roll one"? Yes.

It doesn't say I must tell you exactly the original number of dice you rolled, just that I have to tell you to roll something different than your original roll. Chronometron rule does that by specifying a number of dice to re-roll.

This rule does not solve this debate.

A rule like the Wolf Standard rule that was about the number of dice rolled, instead of being about the result of those dice would do it. It is stating that you cannot consider the result rolled on each dice separately, not that a 2d6 roll isn't considered two dice rolls.

It does solve this debate. You have no permission to roll part of a Xd6 set. You have permission to roll 1d6 which has a specific meaning in the rules.

Your refusal to understand why it applies doesn't mean it doesn't solve the debate.

rigeld2 wrote:It does solve this debate. You have no permission to roll part of a Xd6 set. You have permission to roll 1d6 which has a specific meaning in the rules.

Your refusal to understand why it applies doesn't mean it doesn't solve the debate.

You have not proven that Xd6 is a set. To say "you may reroll one D6" is less specific than to say "you may reroll one D6 out of 2D6" however it is still specific.

1d6 is a specific thing in the rules.
2d6 is a specific thing in the rules.

You are allowed to re-roll 1d6.
It's that specific. Since there is no permission to do anything with 2d6, you cannot re-roll just one die.

Chronometron gives you permission to re-roll one of your "d6 rolls", not 1d6. Check the entry.

Page 2 defines a "d6 roll" as a different thing from a "2d6 roll".

Mannahnin wrote:No. You need a statement that "You may use this re-roll to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll" or the equivalent.

Page 2 defines that there are multiple distinct types of rolls, and that re-rolls for one do not apply to the others.

A 1d6 roll is one type of roll.
A 2d6 roll is another type of roll.
A 3d6 roll is another type of roll.

Chronometron only allows you to re-roll the first. All-Seeing eye allows you to re-roll any of them. Neither roll allows you to pick out and re-roll one die out of the second or third types.

I don't see anything on the page defining rolls as a type of roll. Nothing says 2D6 is a single roll, or 2D6 is not two D6 rolls. It just isn't on the page as RAW.

For 2D6 and 3D6 re-rolls "you must reroll all of them" unless specified otherwise.

There are two ways a rule can specify otherwise:

1. A rule says "you are not required to reroll all dice"
2. A rule says "You may reroll one D6."

Both cases are specifying otherwise.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Chronometron gives you permission to re-roll one of your "d6 rolls", not 1d6. Check the entry.

I completely agree.

Mannahnin wrote:
Page 2 defines a "d6 roll" as a different thing from a "2d6 roll".

Which part? Can you quote it?

Xd6 means "roll x number of dice and add them together." The result of any one of those dice affect the over all roll.
In some cases you might roll multiple d6's simultaneously (such as when shooting). In that case you roll X d6. Each d6 affects only itself. Not the overall total. When you have permission to re-roll a d6 (aka 1d6), it must be used on a 1d6 roll.

Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll.


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Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 uses standard 6-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')

This tells us that a d6 is a standard 6-sided die.

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one go, which is written as 2d6, 3d6, and so on. Roll the indicated number of dice and add the scores together...

This tells us that Xd6 is X number of 6 sided dice added together, to get a result of X to 6x.

Happyjew wrote:
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Almost all of the dice rolls in Warhammer 40,000 uses standard 6-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')

This tells us that a d6 is a standard 6-sided die.

The chronometron specifically mentions a "D6 roll", not a "1D6 roll". This would mean it is referring to an individual dice, not a "roll". This actually means you can re-roll a part of a 2D6 roll, a D6 of it.

This is definitely a line in favor of allowing one of XD6 to be rerolled.

Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules.

Deja Vu.

rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules.

Deja Vu.

I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.

If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.

rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.

p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.

Wow.

The Chronometron states that a model can re-roll one of his D6 rolls per phase. That's ONE of his D6 ROLLS. The rule says nothing of 2d6 rolls, 3d6 rolls, or re-rolling part of anything.

I have no clue where you're getting anything else. In no way does the wording of the rule in the codex even begin to indicate that you are capable of re-rolling part of anything. The only thing you can re-roll is a single D6 roll.

Not a 2d6 roll. See how it has a 2 in front of the d6? That alone should clue anyone in to the fact that rolling a D6 and rolling 2d6 are different things. Besides that, the BRB very, VERY clearly states that unless a rule specifically states you are allowed re-roll part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you cannot re-roll part of anything. Does the Chronometron allow part of a 2d6 to be re-rolled? No. No it does not. All it says is that the Harbinger of Eternity or his unit can re-roll any of his D6 rolls. Again, it says nothing of 2d6 rolls, part of 2d6 rolls, or anything of the sort. Until it does, you can only re-roll single D6 roll, as the Chronometron does not specify re-rolling part of 2d6 or 2d6 rolls.

Again - this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "specific" means in a ruleset.

When you are told that it must specifically allow you to reroll 1D6 of a 2+D6 roll, that means it has to EXPLICITLY tell you that you can reroll a part of the 2D6

Being told you can reroll a D6 roll does not specify this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again - this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "specific" means in a ruleset.

When you are told that it must specifically allow you to reroll 1D6 of a 2+D6 roll, that means it has to EXPLICITLY tell you that you can reroll a part of the 2D6

Being told you can reroll a D6 roll does not specify this.

If it said "the rule must explicitly specify the number of dice rolled and the number of dice to reroll, else reroll all" then yes. It does not.

The p.2 BRB rule says you must specify. Specifying the number of dice (one) or specifying the number of dice and the original number of dice (one out of two) are both "specifying" a different number than the original.

You don't get to decide what "otherwise specified" means and arbitrarily decide "not different enough" when the only requirement is that something different than the original roll must be stated in the rule.

This is a matter of logic. B and C are both specifically different than A, you can't just decide only C is different.

Not to contribute so little, but is there anything in 40k currently that lets us just reroll one dice as Nemesor wants to? just to see if we can find the language that would entail.

ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.

Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules

As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.

Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules

As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion

The restriction is that when rolling 2D6, or 3D6, chronometron specifies re-roll 1D6. Your understanding of "Specify" is your personal interpretation that you choose to impose on this discussion. You're reading requirements into the word "specify" that simply are not there regarding English language and how it is used to interpret these rules.

Here's an example ." Always roll 2D6 or 3D6 unless specified otherwise. "
Example rule: "Roll 1d6."

You see, that's "specifying otherwise". No need to mention what day it was, what the original roll was, or anything else. It still qualifies as "specifically otherwise".

Correction. Chronometron tells you to re-roll 1 1d6 roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.

Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules

As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion

The restriction is that when rolling 2D6, or 3D6, chronometron specifies re-roll 1D6. Your understanding of "Specify" is your personal interpretation that you choose to impose on this discussion. You're reading requirements into the word "specify" that simply are not there regarding English language and how it is used to interpret these rules.

Here's an example ." Always roll 2D6 or 3D6 unless specified otherwise. "
Example rule: "Roll 1d6."

You see, that's "specifying otherwise". No need to mention what day it was, what the original roll was, or anything else. It still qualifies as "specifically otherwise".

Seriously? That is not an example in any way. The chronometron specifies re-rolling a D6 roll. Until the codex magically changes its wording to say "the harbinger of eternity or his unit can re-roll any of his D6 rolls or part of any 2d6 or 3d6 rolls" you cannot re-roll part of anything, and he may only re-roll rolls that cosisted of only one D6, such as difficult terrain, to wound, to hit, etc. Read my earlier posts. I explained all of this. See that 2 in front of the d6? That should tip you off that the rolls are in fact different and the CHronometron only allows re-rolls of die where you only rolled one to begin with.

Its funny how you seem to be the only one here defending your claim, as everyone, literally everyone else has told you in several ways why you are wrong. We've said how a rule must SPECIFICALLY STATE that you may re-roll part of a 2d6 or more roll. As in, that wording (may the re-roll of one die/part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll) must be in the rule. There is no such wording in the Chronometron wargear description. Perhaps maybe you're wrong? Have you considered that?

McNinja wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - it must specify something in relation to the restriction you are trying to overcome.

Same as EL doesnt specify that Sweeping Advance is ignored, meaning EL doesnt work against SA, you are allowed to reroll 1 D6 roll but nothing specifies anything about multiple D6 rules

As said, you are misunderstanding what is meant by Specify as it pertains to a rules discussion

The restriction is that when rolling 2D6, or 3D6, chronometron specifies re-roll 1D6. Your understanding of "Specify" is your personal interpretation that you choose to impose on this discussion. You're reading requirements into the word "specify" that simply are not there regarding English language and how it is used to interpret these rules.

Here's an example ." Always roll 2D6 or 3D6 unless specified otherwise. "
Example rule: "Roll 1d6."

You see, that's "specifying otherwise". No need to mention what day it was, what the original roll was, or anything else. It still qualifies as "specifically otherwise".

Seriously? That is not an example in any way. The chronometron specifies re-rolling a D6 roll. Until the codex magically changes its wording to say "the harbinger of eternity or his unit can re-roll any of his D6 rolls or part of any 2d6 or 3d6 rolls" you cannot re-roll part of anything, and he may only re-roll rolls that cosisted of only one D6, such as difficult terrain, to wound, to hit, etc. Read my earlier posts. I explained all of this. See that 2 in front of the d6? That should tip you off that the rolls are in fact different and the CHronometron only allows re-rolls of die where you only rolled one to begin with.

Its funny how you seem to be the only one here defending your claim, as everyone, literally everyone else has told you in several ways why you are wrong. We've said how a rule must SPECIFICALLY STATE that you may re-roll part of a 2d6 or more roll. As in, that wording (may the re-roll of one die/part of a 2d6 or 3d6 roll) must be in the rule. There is no such wording in the Chronometron wargear description. Perhaps maybe you're wrong? Have you considered that?

The p2 BRB rule does not require "part of any 2d6 and 3d6 and 4d6 rolls" or any such nonsense - the rules will never over explain to such a detail. It only requires specifying something other than the original role. I.E. 1D6 is specifically not 2D6. Do you understand that "more specific" and "less specific" are both "specific"?

Surely your entire argument doesn't hinge entirely on that single sentence on page 2 that requires you to arbitrarily decide that the chronometron rule is "not specific enough". Could you please offer an example of where this is used besides Wolf Standard (because it is not a valid example for reasons already stated in this thread)?

2D6 by definition is two 1D6 rolls, of which the chronometron specifically allows you to re-roll one 1D6.

There is no supporting evidence for you claim and others here insisting that "specific" has a special meaning that they have decided it means.

WE have all the evidence we need, over 5 pages.

Its just you arguing against, by not understanding what specify means in this context

In this context you have to specify you can reroll part of a 2D6 roll, otherwise the rule has no meaning - anyone who can reroll a dice can reroll part of a leadership test. So in your definition they wrote a useless rule

Or, for a change, admit you're wrong and move on.

I wonder if GW gets some of these questions proposed for an FAQ and they just facepalm

I mean it seems very self explanatory, reroll ONE 1D6 per phase

Nemesor Dave wrote:2D6 by definition is two 1D6 rolls, of which the chronometron specifically allows you to re-roll one 1D6.

These are both false statements. The first is disproved by page 2 and the Space Wolf FAQ. The second is disproved by reading the Chronometron entry.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

The p2 BRB rule does not require "part of any 2d6 and 3d6 and 4d6 rolls" or any such nonsense - the rules will never over explain to such a detail. It only requires specifying something other than the original roll. I.E. 1D6 is specifically not 2D6. Do you understand that "more specific" and "less specific" are both "specific"?

Yeah. It's specifically NOT 2d6 because the rule SAYS D6 ROLL.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
Surely your entire argument doesn't hinge entirely on that single sentence on page 2 that requires you to arbitrarily decide that the chronometron rule is "not specific enough". Could you please offer an example of where this is used besides Wolf Standard (because it is not a valid example for reasons already stated in this thread)?

Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
2D6 by definition is two 1D6 rolls, of which the chronometron specifically allows you to re-roll one 1D6.

Yeah, two 1d6 rolls, taken together AS ONE ROLL.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
There is no supporting evidence for you claim and others here insisting that "specific" has a special meaning that they have decided it means.

spe·cif·ic   [spi-sif-ik]
adjective
1.
having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite: to state one's specific purpose.
2.
specified, precise, or particular: a specific sum of money.
3.
peculiar or proper to somebody or something, as qualities, characteristics, effects, etc.: His specific problems got him into trouble.
4.
of a special or particular kind.
5.
concerned specifically with the item or subject named (used in combination): The Secretary addressed himself to crop-specific problems.

That is the definition of specific everyone here knows and uses. In order for the re-roll of part of a 2d6 or 3d6 to be re-rolled, a rule must specifically (explicitly) state that this is possible. The wording on the Chronometron has no such wording. The rule says A (meaning 1) 1D6 ROLL. You can re-roll anything you only rolled 1d6 for in the first place.

McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.

Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.

I post mostly in Necron threads because I am familiar with the codex and rules, not because I need permission to play any particular way.

YMDC is supposed to be about RAW. Unless someone can post a new take on this or an additional rule regarding rerolls and the number of dice, I don't care to argue my point any further.

Your "point" has been proven wrong, by RAW. There's nothing to argue.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
There is no supporting evidence for you claim and others here insisting that "specific" has a special meaning that they have decided it means.

Actually, there is. You just don't want to accept it, and therefore ignore it. It has been linked to you multiple times in the Sweeping Advance thread for example.

So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"]If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."

Like you can see, here they have specifically stated that GK are not destroyed in sweeping advance even when caught.


Lets look how the rules for re-rolling 2D6 are
Brb pg2
"If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise"

So unless special rule/wargear has wording that says something like "when re-rerolling 2d6 roll, you're allowed to choose which dice to reroll", you're not allowed to do that. ATSKNF is proof of that.


Note that SA only used as example what "unless specifically stated" means, please don't bring EL vs SA to this thread.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.

Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.

I post mostly in Necron threads because I am familiar with the codex and rules, not because I need permission to play any particular way.

YMDC is supposed to be about RAW. Unless someone can post a new take on this or an additional rule regarding rerolls and the number of dice, I don't care to argue my point any further.

It is about RAW. RAW of the Chronometron entry makes no indication of being able to roll part of anything, just single D6 rolls.

It's true you don't need out permission to play any specific way. What you do need, however, is your opponents permission to play the Chronometron as you want.

However, this is not an argument about who has permission for what. This is an argument over what RAW says, and so far, you've kept saying the same thing over and over while I and a few other people have pointed out how it is incorrect. If you really do not want to continue this discussion, don't. But keep in mind that the RAW are RAW, and I doubt many people agree with your assertion of the rules for the Chronometron. It will be entirely up to your opponents and whether or not they allow you to start re-rolling part of your Leadership/morale/pinning tests or Scatter rolls.

Exactly. You can use Chonometron on a d6 roll. Is a LD check or scatter roll "a d6 roll"? No, it clearly is not.

Mannahnin wrote:Exactly. You can use Chonometron on a d6 roll. Is a LD check or scatter roll "a d6 roll"? No, it clearly is not.

This. And because it is not a D6 roll, you need something that can specifically allow you to reroll part of the 2D6 roll by saying it can reroll part of a D6 roll. If it doesnt say it can, it cannot - because that is what specific means.

You do realize that Nemesor Dave is trolling you, don't you?

Likely, however the Mods dont think he is (presumably) and there is the danger someone reading may think he has a valid argument - its more preventing other people from making mistakes

Nemesor Dave wrote:

McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.

Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.

I strongly encourage independent, critical, skepticism. For the most part, I think Nem Dave has conducted himself well in this thread. He has been accused of stupidity, stubbornness and trolling. He has responded for the most part with rules based arguments and logic in the face of personal attacks. If the NO position is so obviously correct, people should have little trouble making it perfectly clear. If the NO position is not ironclad and people are resorting to personal attacks to browbeat and bully a descanting voice into agreement, I am saddened by that. Nem Dave maybe wrong (also debatable) but at least he is arguing correctly.

Happyjew wrote:Xd6 means "roll x number of dice and add them together." The result of any one of those dice affect the over all roll.
In some cases you might roll multiple d6's simultaneously (such as when shooting). In that case you roll X d6. Each d6 affects only itself. Not the overall total. When you have permission to re-roll a d6 (aka 1d6), it must be used on a 1d6 roll.

IIRC, the space wolves faq refers to re-rolling a "result" of a 1. As in end result or final outcome of the aggregate dice. The chronometron may not have the same implication.

Happyjew wrote:Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll.

I brought it up much earlier in the conversation, but I don't see your response answering the question. Case in point, let's say I'm playing Eldar and roll 3d6 on a psychic test. If I roll 3 1s, did I roll double ones? (if 2d6 is so clearly different than 3d6, then 3 ones ought to be triple ones and not count as double ones) If yes, then I am looking at the individual rolls as d6s before aggregating them. If no, then the language in perils of the warp is not applicable to this debate. Either way there is an unanswered question.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules. Deja Vu.

I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.

I agree, I would like to see this clarified. There was a widespread public opinion earlier in the SA vs EL debate that Destroyed and Wiped out were clearly different RAW and not synonymous in the rules. That opinion changed, IMO mostly due to people not accepting being bullied in a rules discussion.

If the NO position truly thinks the case is clear cut and that Nem Dave is only arguing out of stubbornness, I invite you to consider that you are being equally stubborn. High minded ideals like "for the public good" may be spoken with a straight face by both sides, but in the end, it seems to be the last word that is being fought over, not the truth.

foolishmortal wrote:Case in point, let's say I'm playing Eldar and roll 3d6 on a psychic test. If I roll 3 1s, did I roll double ones? (if 2d6 is so clearly different than 3d6, then 3 ones ought to be triple ones and not count as double ones) If yes, then I am looking at the individual rolls as d6s before aggregating them. If no, then the language in perils of the warp is not applicable to this debate. Either way there is an unanswered question.

And then per the rules (I'm assuming you rolled the 3 dice per your wargear), you then drop the highest (in this case "1") and are left with, oh my, double 1's.

foolishmortal wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

McNinja wrote: Everyone, literally everyone but you acknowledges the fact that the rule set on pg 2 of the BRB is quite specific in how it is supposed to be worked around.

Unfortunately "everyone" has been wrong before. There are plenty of instances where "the community" has misunderstood a rule so I'm not really bothered by 3 or 4 people in this forum that bother to post in this thread all disagree with me.

I strongly encourage independent, critical, skepticism. For the most part, I think Nem Dave has conducted himself well in this thread. He has been accused of stupidity, stubbornness and trolling. He has responded for the most part with rules based arguments and logic in the face of personal attacks. If the NO position is so obviously correct, people should have little trouble making it perfectly clear. If the NO position is not ironclad and people are resorting to personal attacks to browbeat and bully a descanting voice into agreement, I am saddened by that. Nem Dave maybe wrong (also debatable) but at least he is arguing correctly.

He has, but that still doesn't change the fact that he isn't right, has been shown he isn't right, and still thinks he is. I don't know if he's gonna keep posting in this thread, but anything he does does't change the wording for the Chronometron.

In the end, it is really up to him and his opponent to settle this argument if it ever comes up in a game.

foolishmortal wrote:He has responded for the most part with rules based arguments and logic in the face of personal attacks. If the NO position is so obviously correct, people should have little trouble making it perfectly clear. If the NO position is not ironclad and people are resorting to personal attacks to browbeat and bully a descanting voice into agreement, I am saddened by that. Nem Dave maybe wrong (also debatable) but at least he is arguing correctly.

You obviously haven't read the entire thread. I was arguing very politely, even though I was essentially repeating myself. And all I got in return was a refusal to accept the facts.

Happyjew wrote:Also regarding psychic tests (I know someone mentioned them somewhere), they specify double 1's and 6's because certain wargear/abilities can affect how many dice you roll.

I brought it up much earlier in the conversation, but I don't see your response answering the question. Case in point, let's say I'm playing Eldar and roll 3d6 on a psychic test. If I roll 3 1s, did I roll double ones? (if 2d6 is so clearly different than 3d6, then 3 ones ought to be triple ones and not count as double ones) If yes, then I am looking at the individual rolls as d6s before aggregating them. If no, then the language in perils of the warp is not applicable to this debate. Either way there is an unanswered question.

The Eldar abilities state to look at the 2 highest (or lowest) dice when considering success and Perils.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except a d6 roll and a 1d6 roll are synonymous in the rules. Deja Vu.

I know this was stated, but I don't think it was demonstrated.

I agree, I would like to see this clarified. There was a widespread public opinion earlier in the SA vs EL debate that Destroyed and Wiped out were clearly different RAW and not synonymous in the rules. That opinion changed, IMO mostly due to people not accepting being bullied in a rules discussion.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.

p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.

Perhaps you should read the entire thread before asking for clarification. It's at the top of the 5th page.

If the NO position truly thinks the case is clear cut and that Nem Dave is only arguing out of stubbornness, I invite you to consider that you are being equally stubborn. High minded ideals like "for the public good" may be spoken with a straight face by both sides, but in the end, it seems to be the last word that is being fought over, not the truth.

Except we've presented the truth. And are getting nothing but fingers in ears "nonononononono". Or that's what it seems like.

Happyjew wrote:And then per the rules (I'm assuming you rolled the 3 dice per your wargear), you then drop the highest (in this case "1") and are left with, oh my, double 1's.

If this is the case than why does the Perils of the Warp rule refer to double 1s and/or 6s? If all that is looked at is the final result of 2 or 12, then why does the rule refer to double 1s or 6s?

I ask because great weight has been given by the NO position to the distinction between d6 + d6 and 2d6. The perils of the warp rule seems show that a 2d6 result is made up of d6 + d6. If that is the case then I would like clarification on why the chronometron cannot be used to re-roll one of them. I see why it cannot be used to re-roll both of them. The chronometron rule does not grant specific permission to do so (IMO). What I don't see is a RAW restriction on re-rolling a d6 roll.

Because on page 2 if you're going to re-roll any of the dice in a 2d6 roll you must re-roll both.

Read. The. Thread.

Page 2, and the Space Wolf FAQ, say that a 2d6 roll is a different thing from a d6 roll, and you cannot consider the two component dice in a 2d6 roll separately.

foolishmortal wrote:

Happyjew wrote:And then per the rules (I'm assuming you rolled the 3 dice per your wargear), you then drop the highest (in this case "1") and are left with, oh my, double 1's.

If this is the case than why does the Perils of the Warp rule refer to double 1s and/or 6s? If all that is looked at is the final result of 2 or 12, then why does the rule refer to double 1s or 6s?

I ask because great weight has been given by the NO position to the distinction between d6 + d6 and 2d6. The perils of the warp rule seems show that a 2d6 result is made up of d6 + d6. If that is the case then I would like clarification on why the chronometron cannot be used to re-roll one of them. I see why it cannot be used to re-roll both of them. The chronometron rule does not grant specific permission to do so (IMO). What I don't see is a RAW restriction on re-rolling a d6 roll.

the fact that two d6s are rolled does not change the fact that the rolls are entirely different things, and A d6 roll does not mean "whenever you roll anything with a d6 in it." it means a roll that is comprised of only 1 single d6.

rigeld2 wrote:You obviously haven't read the entire thread. I was arguing very politely, even though I was essentially repeating myself. And all I got in return was a refusal to accept the facts.

I have read the entire thread. I posted on this thread before you. I did not say that you (rigeld2) did not argue politely. I did not say that nem dave always argued with logic and rules. I spoke of general trends in the discussion. In general, I like you (rigeld2) and your general style. I have found you to be clear thinker and polite. You (rigeld2) tend to argue the rules and state a logical case. You (rigeld2) are human, thus you are either in possession of free will or something so ineffable as to be identical for our purposes. This is a good thing (IMO) but it does mean that even perfect knowledge of past actions is not a guarantee of future performance. IMO, again, this is also a good thing.

When you say "You obviously haven't read the entire thread" I see 'you clearly disagree with me but rather than debate the point or let it pass, I will make a blanket dismissal of your entire argument'.

rigeld2 wrote:The Eldar abilities state to look at the 2 highest (or lowest) dice when considering success and Perils.

Yes, and before you look at the final result (2-12) of that 2d6 roll, it seems you must also consider each die individually for the purposes of perils of the warp. It is at this stage that I believe Nem Dave would want to use the chronometron.

rigeld2 wrote:Perhaps you should read the entire thread before asking for clarification. It's at the top of the 5th page.

Again, this is a rude dismissal. I did read the top of the fifth page. It raised more questions for me than it answered. Case in point, is a modified d6 roll re-rollable with a chronometron? Is d6+1 so different from a d6 roll as to no longer fall under the chronometron rules?

rigeld2 wrote: And are getting nothing but fingers in ears "nonononononono". Or that's what it seems like.

I can see how one might see this. If you want to dismiss my questions out of hand, I would understand that. I wouldn't appreciate it, but I would understand it.
If you want to ignore my posts, I would understand that. Honestly, I find that to be the best policy when confronted with the truly irrational.

I would prefer to examine the RAW for a consistent interpretation. Sometimes I have the time and inclination to do so rigorously. I try to do so carefully, but I am human, thus sometimes emotional and fallible. I apologize if this has been the case here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Page 2, and the Space Wolf FAQ, say that a 2d6 roll is a different thing from a d6 roll, and you cannot consider the two component dice in a 2d6 roll separately.

The space wolves faq says
"Q. Does a Wolf Standard allow Leadership test results
to be re-rolled? (p62)
A. No, as it is impossible to roll a ‘1’ on 2D6 – when
making a 2D6 result you must count both dice as a
single roll, not address them individually."

I agree that the result of the leadership test can never be 1.
I disagree with the assumption that the above language implies that the result of a 2 on a leadership test is not because of two 1s on d6s.

p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.

Yes, that is what the pro position wants to do.

The quote you posted says that they cannot do that.

p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.

The rules for the Chronometron do not contain an explicit statement that you may re-roll one die from a 2d6 roll.

From what I understand (based on what was posted in this thread), the chronometron's wording is "may re-roll any of the units d6 rolls.". This tells us that the roll must be a d6 roll, i.e. 1d6. This is very very specific on the type of roll that it affects. Anytime you roll multiple dice and add the result together, you are not making a d6 roll, you are making an Xd6 roll (where X>1).

For example, for characteristic tests (except Ld), we are told to "roll a D6". For rolling to hit we are told to "roll a d6 for each [attack]." For rolling to wound, we are told to "roll a D6." Etc. Each one of these is a D6 roll.

For Ld, we are told to "roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier)." For scatter we are told to "roll the scatter dice and 2d6 to see where the [marker] lands." Both of these are a 2d6 roll. NOT a D6 roll.

foolishmortal wrote:When you say "You obviously haven't read the entire thread" I see 'you clearly disagree with me but rather than debate the point or let it pass, I will make a blanket dismissal of your entire argument'.

Yes, because clearly that's what I did.

rigeld2 wrote:The Eldar abilities state to look at the 2 highest (or lowest) dice when considering success and Perils.

Yes, and before you look at the final result (2-12) of that 2d6 roll, it seems you must also consider each die individually for the purposes of perils of the warp. It is at this stage that I believe Nem Dave would want to use the chronometron.

Here's this entire thread in a nutshell:

Side A:
- Making a 2D6 roll is different than making 2x D6 rolls; the 2D6 roll is meant to carry a value in the range of 2 and 12, as opposed to making 2x D6 rolls, which is simply two rolls that each carry a value in the range of 1 and 6.
- Rolling multiple D6s at the same time is just to speed up the game, such as when multiple Marines shoot bolters. Technically each D6 should be rolled individually, but doing that would make 40k be boring to play, so nobody does this, at the suggestion of the BGB and common sense.
- Page 2 of the BGB states that if you are allowed to re-roll 2D6, then both dice rolled must be re-rolled. You cannot re-roll only one of the two dice from a 2D6 roll, unless explicitly stated so. This is where the cognitive dissonance takes place, because:

Side B:
- claims that the Chronometron allows you to re-roll one of the two dice in a 2D6 roll, because the wording of the Chronometron says that you may re-roll a D6.
- claims that a 2D6 = 2x D6

My Hardcore Rules Lawyering:
The wording of the Chronometron is NOT specific enough to meet the requirements to the aforementioned exception expressed on page 2 of the BGB. While the Chronometron does say that you can re-roll a D6, it does not explicitly state that you may re-roll a D6 that is part of a 2D6 roll. Since the premise that a 2D6 roll =/= 2x D6 rolls, the Chronometron cannot be used on instances of 2D6

again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?

I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.

Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?

I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.

I just did it, at previous page.

Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."

When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).

Mannahnin wrote:

p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.

The rules for the Chronometron do not contain an explicit statement that you may re-roll one die from a 2d6 roll.

Foolishmortal has hit the nail on the head why Wolf Standard FAQ does not apply to this discussion.

That leaves the only argument over P2 of the BRB. I will use an example to show how chronometron IS specific. (specific enough is someones opinion and not part of RAW)

You say "I am going to buy two red apples unless you explicitly specify otherwise".
I say, "You may buy one red apple."

Would you claim I wasn't clear or specific enough about what you can buy? I specified the number of apples you may buy explicitly.

What you're expecting would be the equivalent of requiring me to say "You may buy one red apple if you were going to buy three, and if you were going to buy four, and if the store was close to you, and if you got there by motorbike." All these things are "more specific". But the only requirement from p.2 is "specify otherwise". Chronometron does this by saying you may re-roll "one D6."

For clarity, I want an answer to this using RAW. Fuzzying up the meaning of "specific" is not RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:
The wording of the Chronometron is NOT specific enough to meet the requirements..

This is what you and many other are arguing. "Not specific enough". You don't get to arbitrarily decide what must be specified. The chronometron rule explicitly specifies only one D6 may be re-rolled. Any other requirement to be "more specific" is imagined and not in RAW.

Your apple analogy doesn't work, because it lacks any comparison to the proper framework, and demonstrates that you are still operating under the falsehood that 2D6 = 2x 1D6.

However, this is not the case.

If you want a proper analogy, it should be more like this:

You have $1 and want to buy a Twinkie, but Twinkies are sold in 2-packs and cost $2 per pack. Unless you can specifically find a single Twinkie, you have to pay for the 2-pack.
Since you cannot afford the 2-pack, you cannot have a Twinkie.


What you must remember is that 40k operates under a permissive ruleset. This means that you may not perform any action unless specified. That is, the answer to ever single question about "can I...?" is "no", unless there is a specific permission to do so.

While the Chronometron allows you to re-roll a D6, the BRB states that re-rolls requiring 2D6 must be both-or-nothing unless specified otherwise. That is, the rule would have to explicitly state that you may re-roll a single die that is part of a 2D6 roll. Otherwise, the re-roll is relegated to the regular rules for 2D6 re-rolls, which is both-or-nothing.





Also, I'm gonna nail this coffin shut here:

"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase." Necron codex, pg. 85

It does not say he may re-roll a D6. It says he may re-roll one of his D6 rolls. These semantics are supremely important here.

Is a Leadership test a D6 roll? No. It is a 2D6 roll. Because again 2D6 =/= 2x D6 rolls.

It is like saying you may re-take one of your school exams. That does not mean that you may re-do only a single page of one of your exams; it means you may re-do the entire exam.

EDIT: clarity!

azazel the cat wrote:Your apple analogy doesn't work, because it lacks any comparison to the proper framework, and demonstrates that you are still operating under the falsehood that 2D6 = 2x 1D6.

Your belief that 2D6 is not 2 x 1D6. This has not been proven by RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My example is showing that Chronometron "specifies otherwise". You don't refute this.

Your example is trying to show that 2D6 is a single roll and not two 1D6 rolls. This is not RAW.

Perhaps someone can think of a case that might clarify this. Any rules regarding "reroll 1's" where multiple dice are rolled. Reroll the highest, or other example where 1 dice is effected after two dice are rolled would show dice can be considered individually after rolling multiples.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Your apple analogy doesn't work, because it lacks any comparison to the proper framework, and demonstrates that you are still operating under the falsehood that 2D6 = 2x 1D6.

Your belief that 2D6 is not 2 x 1D6. This has not been proven by RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My example is showing that Chronometron "specifies otherwise". You don't refute this.

Your example is trying to show that 2D6 is a single roll and not two 1D6 rolls. This is not RAW.

Perhaps someone can think of a case that might clarify this. Any rules regarding "reroll 1's" where two dice are rolled. Reroll the highest, or other example where 1 dice is effected after two dice are rolled would show that 2D6 is two rolls of 1D6.

must admit i kinda skipped from page one to this page as everyone seemed to be arguing the same thing over and over but i thought i'd pose a question that should (in theory at least) answer the issue:


can someone post a RAW argument for a dice roll of multiple D6 being comprised of single D6 rolls added together?

can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?



if there is any question of doubt to either of the statements then either you have not used RAW, quotes from specific codeci and the BRB or the arguement is invalid.

if neither arguement can be settled this way then i'd chop it up to being an obscure rule that needs to be house ruled before a game and negate the need for a 5+ page debate

mrspadge wrote:
must admit i kinda skipped from page one to this page as everyone seemed to be arguing the same thing over and over but i thought i'd pose a question that should (in theory at least) answer the issue:


can someone post a RAW argument for a dice roll of multiple D6 being comprised of single D6 rolls added together?

p2 from BRB "..so a 2D6 roll is two dice rolled and added together...". 2D6 = two 1D6 rolls, add them together.

mrspadge wrote:
can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?

No, there has been nothing posted.

Yep, ND is definitely trolling.

2D6 is not a 2x1D6 roll, as explicitly statd in the rulebook. THis is RAW

A chronometron does not specify that it can reroll one of a 2D6 roll, so it cannot according ot the rules for XD6 rolls. This is RAW

You are 100% wrong on every account.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, ND is definitely trolling.

2D6 is not a 2x1D6 roll, as explicitly statd in the rulebook. THis is RAW

A chronometron does not specify that it can reroll one of a 2D6 roll, so it cannot according ot the rules for XD6 rolls. This is RAW

You are 100% wrong on every account.

Stating your opinion does not make it RAW. You fail to support your statements in any way.

Yeah, if 2D6 = 2x D6, then that would mean two marines can team up to hit a target that requires a 6. But they can't. It's that simple.

That's what this entire argument boils down to. Nemesor Dave believes that 2D6 = 2x D6

azazel the cat wrote:Yeah, if 2D6 = 2x D6, then that would mean two marines can team up to hit a target that requires a 6. But they can't. It's that simple.

That's what this entire argument boils down to. Nemesor Dave believes that 2D6 = 2x D6

Your marines comment is a "straw man" argument and completely misrepresents my position.

You hold two dice in your hand and roll them both. You may pick up only one, and re-roll it. It's not that hard to believe.

I;'m not stating my opinion - i'm restating the rules that have been proven, over and over, in this thread

You dont havea single argument that hasnt been debunked, over and over and over. There is little point in proving you wrong for the 20th time as each time you plug your fingers in your ears and pretend it hasnt happened.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I;'m not stating my opinion - i'm restating the rules that have been proven, over and over, in this thread

You dont havea single argument that hasnt been debunked, over and over and over. There is little point in proving you wrong for the 20th time as each time you plug your fingers in your ears and pretend it hasnt happened.

You're not restating any rules. Your post does not contain a quote to a single rule.

I have refuted your only argument (p2 of the BRB) where you decided that Chronometron is "not specific enough" for you. Yet It is quite "specific" about the number of dice to roll that is different from the original roll. You may still disagree, however your single argument has been refuted.

Can you even show a single example where a rule says as you're demanding "you may re-roll one D6 out of 2D6, 3D6, or 4D6"?

I was restating the rules. Note the word "quote" did not appear there? Comprehension issue again I guess.

Stop making up quotes as well.

Oh, and "refute" has a specific meaning - something you have utterly and totally failed to meet. Try again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I was restating the rules. Note the word "quote" did not appear there? Comprehension issue again I guess.

Stop making up quotes as well.

Oh, and "refute" has a specific meaning - something you have utterly and totally failed to meet. Try again.

When there is a question that proves the opposite of what you are trying to claim, perhaps that is why you avoid the question.

Maybe you didn't notice: Can you even show a single example where a rule says as you're demanding "you may re-roll one D6 out of 2D6, 3D6, or 4D6"?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

p2 BRB says "If you re-roIl a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise."
I don't believe the PRO position is trying to re-roll 2d6. They are trying to re-roll one of the d6 component dice.

The rules for the Chronometron do not contain an explicit statement that you may re-roll one die from a 2d6 roll.

Foolishmortal has hit the nail on the head why Wolf Standard FAQ does not apply to this discussion.

That leaves the only argument over P2 of the BRB. I will use an example to show how chronometron IS specific. (specific enough is someones opinion and not part of RAW)

You say "I am going to buy two red apples unless you explicitly specify otherwise".
I say, "You may buy one red apple."

Would you claim I wasn't clear or specific enough about what you can buy? I specified the number of apples you may buy explicitly.

No, you didn't. You didn't set a limit on apples to buy. Your statement changed *nothing* about what the person was going to buy already. It is not specific.

IF you tell me to buy one red apple, and I buy 10, have I met your requirements?

What you're expecting would be the equivalent of requiring me to say "You may buy one red apple if you were going to buy three, and if you were going to buy four, and if the store was close to you, and if you got there by motorbike." All these things are "more specific". But the only requirement from p.2 is "specify otherwise". Chronometron does this by saying you may re-roll "one D6."

No, but thanks for taking the argument out into the land of nowhere.
It would be the equivalent if saying "You may buy one red apple instead of the two or more you were going to buy."
Chrono says you may re-roll one d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is explicitly not 2 1d6 rolls, as we've proven - repeatedly.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

mrspadge wrote:
can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?

No, there has been nothing posted.

Really? Hmmm... I'd swear there was...

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.

p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.

Oh, there it is.

rigeld2 wrote:
Chrono says you may re-roll one d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is explicitly not 2 1d6 rolls, as we've proven - repeatedly.

People keep claiming this - what proves a 2d6 roll is not two 1D6 rolls?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

mrspadge wrote:
can someone post a RAW argument that a "D6" roll can only ever include 1d6?

No, there has been nothing posted.

Really? Hmmm... I'd swear there was...

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If I didn't have a 2 year old passed out in my lap with my brb in the other room I'd demonstrate.

p.8 roll a D6 for a characteristic test. Probably countless other places. I'd agree 1D6 = D6.

Oh, there it is.

My mistake on this one on what he was asking. Yes, the wording one "D6 roll" can only be interpreted as meaning re-roll 1 dice.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

You say "I am going to buy two red apples unless you explicitly specify otherwise".
I say, "You may buy one red apple."

Would you claim I wasn't clear or specific enough about what you can buy? I specified the number of apples you may buy explicitly.

No, you didn't. You didn't set a limit on apples to buy. Your statement changed *nothing* about what the person was going to buy already. It is not specific.

IF you tell me to buy one red apple, and I buy 10, have I met your requirements?
.

1) You're required to roll two dice.
2) You must re-roll both, unless you have specific permission to re-roll a different number of dice.
3) You have permission to re-roll one dice.

This isn't specific? You're confused, that perhaps I meant you re-roll 10 dice?

It isnt specific TO THE SITUATION IN HAND, hence your constant misunderstanding of the word "specific" used in this context.

You are told that, unless your rule specifically states otherwise, you cannot reroll 1 of an XD6 roll. That means that you need to show your rule allows you to speciifcally reroll 1 of an XD6 roll, which requires the multiple-dice to be specifically mentioned - otherwise it is just a general rule and not specific

This has been gone over and over and over in this thread, phrased a dozen different ways, and you have yet to refute a single item. Your claim that "this is specific!!!!!" has been refuted. Your claim that a 2D6 roll is actually a 1D6 + 1D6 roll has been refuted.

You have nothing left. You have no arguments that have withstood anything more than a cursory dismissal. You are now simply hoping to break RAW so your necrons are more powerful.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt specific TO THE SITUATION IN HAND, hence your constant misunderstanding of the word "specific" used in this context.

You are told that, unless your rule specifically states otherwise, you cannot reroll 1 of an XD6 roll. That means that you need to show your rule allows you to speciifcally reroll 1 of an XD6 roll, which requires the multiple-dice to be specifically mentioned - otherwise it is just a general rule and not specific

This has been gone over and over and over in this thread, phrased a dozen different ways, and you have yet to refute a single item. Your claim that "this is specific!!!!!" has been refuted. Your claim that a 2D6 roll is actually a 1D6 + 1D6 roll has been refuted.

You have nothing left. You have no arguments that have withstood anything more than a cursory dismissal. You are now simply hoping to break RAW so your necrons are more powerful.

The p2. BRB statement is not making any comment on when you're allowed to re-roll or not. It is making a comment about how many dice you can re-roll when a re-roll is granted.

Example of "Not specific :"
1) A rule that says you may re-roll rolls to penetrate.
2) You shoot meltagun at a vehicle within 6".

Here it is not specified, so you must re-roll 2D6. See - Not Specific.

Example of "Specific".
1) You roll 2D6 for a leadership test.
2) Chronometron allows you to re-roll one D6.

Here is specific, you may only re-roll 1D6, not both. It is explicitly specific.

Did I miss somewhere your answer to 'Can you even show a single example where a rule says as you're demanding "you may re-roll one D6 out of 2D6, 3D6, or 4D6"'?

One D6 *of a multiple D6 roll* would be specific.

Otherwise it is about as generic a reroll as you can possibly get -t he other examples you gave are actually more specific than the chronometron.

General: You may reroll 1D6

Specific: If you want to reroll part of a 2D6 roll, you must specify you can

General: I can try to rescue a unit by passing a 5+ roll at the end of the phase
Specific: if you want to rescue the unit from SA your rule must specify that it can owrk against SA

Do I have to show an example, or can i just (as has already been done) show that the chrono doesnt meet the requirements of the rule? Yep, I can do that. Check. Apparently your false dichotomy is just that.

FOr example - if ATSKNF not exist it wouldnt suddenly mean EL worked against Sweeping Advance. Again, this is really basic logic here....

nosferatu1001 wrote:One D6 *of a multiple D6 roll* would be specific.

Otherwise it is about as generic a reroll as you can possibly get -t he other examples you gave are actually more specific than the chronometron.

General: You may reroll 1D6

Specific: If you want to reroll part of a 2D6 roll, you must specify you can

General: I can try to rescue a unit by passing a 5+ roll at the end of the phase
Specific: if you want to rescue the unit from SA your rule must specify that it can owrk against SA

Do I have to show an example, or can i just (as has already been done) show that the chrono doesnt meet the requirements of the rule? Yep, I can do that. Check. Apparently your false dichotomy is just that.

FOr example - if ATSKNF not exist it wouldnt suddenly mean EL worked against Sweeping Advance. Again, this is really basic logic here....

You keep trying to bring Sweeping Advance into this but they are not the same.

Sweeping Advance requires a rule to specifically exempt your unit from the effects of sweeping advance. The exemption rule must mention "Sweeping Advance" such as ATSKNF. I never disagreed with this.

p. 2 - Any re-rolls require you to re-roll all dice, unless a rule specifically allows you to reroll a different number of dice like Chronometron where it states "re-roll one".

Do you have any examples of a rule that says "one D6 *of a multiple D6 roll*"? The answer is clearly no.

Sweeping Advance - "Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage". "At this stage" requires a rule to mention it can save a unit during sweeping advance. (not at the end of the phase like EL).

ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Edit for clarity

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Chrono says you may re-roll one d6 roll. A 2d6 roll is explicitly not 2 1d6 rolls, as we've proven - repeatedly.

People keep claiming this - what proves a 2d6 roll is not two 1D6 rolls?

BRB pg2 wrote:
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on

Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.

a d6 roll is explicitly different from a 2d6 roll. A d6 roll is a specific thing, a 2d6 roll is another specific thing.

1) You're required to roll two dice.
2) You must re-roll both, unless you have specific permission to re-roll a different number of dice.
3) You have permission to re-roll one dice.

This isn't specific? You're confused, that perhaps I meant you re-roll 10 dice?

You're misstating 2. You must re-roll both unless you have explicit specific permission otherwise. Does the Chrono mention, explicitly, re-rolling one out of a set?

It requires you to reroll all dice of a multiple D6 roll, unless the rule specifically says otherwise - to whit you have to be able to reroll one dice from a multiple D6 roll in your rule

Does chrono say that? No! Guess that means it cannot, because it does not specify that it can. Shucks.

You have a general allowance: you may reroll a single D6 roll

This is not the same as a 2D6 (+) roll, as proven by the rules - and which you pretend doesnt exist. This is also not the same as being allowed to reroll part of a 2D6 (+) roll, because it does not specify that it can reroll part of a 2D6 (+) roll

And, again - examples are not required to prove you wrong, as has been proven over these last 6 pages. The example of SA was to show you that the non-existence of an example of a rule meeting the specification requirements of another rule (ATSKNF as an example of a rule specifying it works against SA) doesnt suddenly make another rule meet the specification requirements (chronometron not meeting the specification requirement to reroll a 2D6 (+) roll) and so doesnt actually do your argument any benefits. At best it is neutral - it doesnt affect either side.

You just have a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "specific" and how it applies to rulesets, and until you realise that you will always be in the wrong in discussions like this.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

Nemesor Dave wrote:Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

It still says re-roll one roll. Half of a roll is not explicitly mentioned in that.

This wins:

rigeld2 wrote:Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

No, it's not.

It's allowing a re-roll of a d6 roll. We've established that a d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
Where is the explicit specific allowance to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Remember the example from sweeping advance (which is why it's relevant no matter how much you don't want it to be).
It needs to mention the rule it's allowing you to bypass.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

No, it's not.

It's allowing a re-roll of a d6 roll. We've established that a d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
Where is the explicit specific allowance to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Remember the example from sweeping advance (which is why it's relevant no matter how much you don't want it to be).
It needs to mention the rule it's allowing you to bypass.

One last time

General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.

Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.

The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
One last time

General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.

Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.

The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.

Use the entire rule please.

Re-roll one d6 roll. Is a 2d6 roll a d6 roll?

If Chronometron said "you may re-roll a d6" you would have an argument. It doesn't. It says "you may re-roll a single d6 roll. A very very important distinction. I pointed out examples where the rules specify to make a D6 roll. I pointed out examples where the rule specifies to make a 2D6 roll. However, you are clinging to your interpretation that a D6 roll is the same as a 2d6 roll (BTW, a 2xd6 roll would give you a result of [2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12] which is NOT the same as 2d6.).

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
One last time

General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.

Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.

The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.

Use the entire rule please.

Re-roll one d6 roll. Is a 2d6 roll a d6 roll?

2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.

So it lets you re-roll d3 as well then.

Nemesor Dave wrote:2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.

Page 2. The concept of re-rolling both dice means it's one thing.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that Chrono says "a d6 roll" not, "a d6."

You might have a point if it was the latter. Since it's not, you don't. A d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

This is true, except for the stated "and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice", which, although generally true deliberately tries to ignore the fact that there are exceptions to rules that DO call out specific parts of any action.
There are things that tell you to roll multiple dice and to look for individual results.
Those are stated as such because normally you do not.

A 3D6 roll is not three rolls, despite the fact that you are rolling three dice - simultaneously.

OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

To be fair, most of us have done that in this thread at some point.

It is kind of hard not to with the actual answer in black and white.

Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

Yeah, as I said earlier to foolishmortal, all we're doing is re-wording what has already been said... Not trying to claim what I've said is unique.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.

Page 2. The concept of re-rolling both dice means it's one thing.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that Chrono says "a d6 roll" not, "a d6."

You might have a point if it was the latter. Since it's not, you don't. A d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.

This doesn't change anything.

If a 2D6 roll is two 1D6 rolls then I am right.
If a 2D6 roll is one roll (even though it is two dice) then you are right.

There is no rule stating categories of dice. No rule states anything like, you get a 1D6 roll and a 3D6 roll. It will only ever say 4D6. 4D6 is just the number of 1D6 rolls you get.

Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice. A 3D6 roll is three 1D6 rolls. It allows you to re-roll one of those.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice. A 3D6 roll is three 1D6 rolls. It allows you to re-roll one of those.

It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
We know that a d6 is the same thing as 1d6.
So it allows you to re-roll a 1d6 roll.

A 3d6 roll is a 3d6 roll - which is separate and distinct from a 1d6 roll.
You still don't have explicit specific permission in Chrono to re-roll part of a 2 or 3d6 roll.

But a 2d6 roll is not 2 1d6 rolls.
2d6 = [2-12]
Two 1d6 = [1-6, 1-6]

Two completely different answers.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

Lets go over the wording of the Chronometron: "The HoE or his unit can re-roll any of his d6 rolls." d6 rolls. Not 2d6 rolls. This entire argument is pointless because it says d6 roll. Not 2d6 roll. Not part of a 3d6 roll. d6 roll. When you roll 2d6, how many dice do you roll? 2. You roll 2 dice in a 2d6 roll. Not one. Two.

Two dice rolled together. 2d6 roll.

One dice. d6 roll.

Two dice rolled at the same time is a 2d6 roll. One die rolled is a d6 roll. It doesn't matter how many dice a 2d6 roll is comprised of, the fact is you rolled 2 dice to begin with, which makes it a 2d6 roll. The Chrono says you ma re-roll a d6 roll. Something you rolled only one die for in the first place. You cannot re-roll part of a 2d6 roll because you rolled more than one dice at once. Because you rolled more than once die to begin with.

Luide wrote:

Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?

I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.

I just did it, at previous page.

Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."

When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).

That is not an example of being allowed to reroll a d6 in a multid6 scenario. I want to see what meets the standard for that. Or did you just want to tell me I'm wrong before reading my whole post?

kirsanth wrote:

Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

To be fair, most of us have done that in this thread at some point.

It is kind of hard not to with the actual answer in black and white.

At least 5 times here.... when someone wont read whats in front of them, despite numerous explanations, and instead comes up with an entirely opposite conclusion, theyre either trolling or have such a different understanding of how you parse a sentence that you're never going to agree.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB pg2 wrote:
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on

Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.

a d6 roll is explicitly different from a 2d6 roll. A d6 roll is a specific thing, a 2d6 roll is another specific thing.

I would think that "and so on" and "etc" are equivalent, and the inclusion of "and so on" indicates that the series progresses infinitely in the same manner. Right?

Back on topic: Dave, just because there doesn't exist a rule which states "You may reroll one die of a multiple-dice roll" doesn't mean that isn't the requirement; it might just mean that there aren't any rules which meet the requirement. You can't use that as evidence one way or another. A lack of precedent is not the same as a precedent for the opposite interpretation.

What has been done, however, is to present parallel precedent; precedent for something which is phrased in exactly the same way, and has the same effects. Sweeping Advance says that you have to "specifically" state that a rule works to counter it in order to counter it. ATSKNF, the only rule which currently counters Sweeping Advance, mentions the rule by name and tells the player exactly what occurs instead. It is reasonable to conclude that this is the standard of specificity which 40k uses.

The rule we're discussing has exactly the same wording as Sweeping Advance; a rule which counters it must "specifically" state that it does so. The precedent of Sweeping Advance indicates that in order to counter a rule written in this manner, a special rule must mention the rule in question by name, and tell the player what effect replaces the usual effect. The Chronometron does not meet that standard of specificity.

Now; this argument is NOT a logical necessity. It doesn't present a 100% airtight, tautological case; rather it's an argument by precedent. Since there are reasonably legitimate points on both sides, in the absence of clarification, we look to see how this issue has been resolved somewhere else in the ruleset; and we find that in a very similar case, it was resolved in one particular way. It is reasonable, then, to conclude that this parallel case should be resolved in the same way.

The argument you are making counters precedent; that is, exactly the same basic reasoning could be used to argue that ATSKNF would ignore Sweeping Advance even if the part of the rule which begins "If caught in a sweeping advance" did not exist. That isn't true; and since it isn't true in that parallel case, it's reasonable to conclude by analogy that it also isn't true in this case.


Your argument will have much more validity if at some time in a future a special rule is created which does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, but is later FAQed to counteract it. At that point, you could legitimately claim that precedent on this issue goes both ways. Since no such rule exists, however, there's only one precedent for what is meant by "specifically" counteracting a rule; and the Chronometron does not meet that standard.

Katfish! wrote:

Luide wrote:

Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?

I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.

I just did it, at previous page.

Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."

When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).

That is not an example of being allowed to reroll a d6 in a multid6 scenario. I want to see what meets the standard for that. Or did you just want to tell me I'm wrong before reading my whole post?

Because I'm pretty sure there isn't a special rule or wargear that allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll. I'm also pretty sure that if such existed, it would have been found already and presented in this thread.

But it doesn't matter, we just need to look for other sources to see what specific means (=establishing baseline) in the context of 40k rules. First being dictionary, second being any SM codex. Both being (unsurprisingly) in agreement.

But do you really still think, considering all evidence to contrary (ATSKNF and SA for example) that Chronometron explicitly allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll?
It can be read to give implicit permission, with that I agree. But pg2 requires explicit permission, which is definitely not given.


.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB wrote:
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on

Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.

I would think that "and so on" and "etc" are equivalent, and the inclusion of "and so on" indicates that the series progresses infinitely in the same manner. Right?

Yeah. No idea what I was thinking. Apologies.

BeRzErKeR wrote: there doesn't exist a rule which states "You may reroll one die of a multiple-dice roll"

I am not sure this is true. I know there at least was a rule like that. Maybe its Fantasy.

Or Sisters of Battle. Never did buy those mags. . .

Luide wrote:

Because I'm pretty sure there isn't a special rule or wargear that allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll. I'm also pretty sure that if such existed, it would have been found already and presented in this thread.

But it doesn't matter, we just need to look for other sources to see what specific means (=establishing baseline) in the context of 40k rules. First being dictionary, second being any SM codex. Both being (unsurprisingly) in agreement.

But do you really still think, considering all evidence to contrary (ATSKNF and SA for example) that Chronometron explicitly allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll?
It can be read to give implicit permission, with that I agree. But pg2 requires explicit permission, which is definitely not given.

.
I ask this only because I feel that the standard of "specificity" in this thread seems to be rather high. If this is the only rule in 40k that says you may re-roll a d6, and not re-roll an entire roll (such as Corrubulo and similar rules) then that itself is telling. I think that, personally, this argument has become very RAWish and doesn't consider the wider context. To me, The rules intent (OH GOD I REFERENCED INTENT) was to allow a single die to be re-rolled. Any die that was rolled by the unit, pick one up and re-roll it per phase. I honestly don't get why saying i can re-roll a D6 doesn't mean I can re-roll a dice. (I SAW YOUR POST DON'T QUOTE THE SAME THING AGAIN). I understand that a multiD6 roll has a result that is added together. but by re-rolling a D6 it just changes the number contributed by that dice. Chronometron says i can re-roll a D6, A multiD6 roll is multiple added together. That to me is specific enough. (I HAVE READ THIS THREAD I DONT NEED 4 PEOPLE RESTATING THE THREAD BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH MY INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC) I understand and can follow the logic of everyone's thoughts here, I just personally disagree.

As for there not being any example in 40k of a rule allowing what I said to happen, I agree i can't think of one. However, what constitutes being sufficient? I think everyone is seeking the best wording, which is clearly not going to be there in a GW product. That's all I'm saying

Happyjew wrote:If Chronometron said "you may re-roll a d6" you would have an argument. It doesn't. It says "you may re-roll a single d6 roll.

Not quite right. It says, "...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase...". I'm being a bit nitpicky here since you are putting such emphasis on the wording.

Happyjew wrote: A very very important distinction. I pointed out examples where the rules specify to make a D6 roll. I pointed out examples where the rule specifies to make a 2D6 roll. However, you are clinging to your interpretation that a D6 roll is the same as a 2d6 roll (BTW, a 2xd6 roll would give you a result of [2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12] which is NOT the same as 2d6.).

I'm with ND on this one, though for different reasons. Let's say I've got a Tremor Cryptek and a Chrono Cryptek in the same unit, along with 8 Warriors. On my shooting phase everybody shoots (except the Aeonstave of course). The tremorstave is a blast weapon so you follow the rules for that (2d6-BS; assume the scatter die was not a hit). So when all is said and done (and here is why I think the Chrono works regardless of the type of roll) the unit has rolled 10 d6's. The Chrono doesn't care what type of roll you made (leadership, scatter, deep strike, etc.), it only cares that a D6 has been 'rolled' on the table. In this scenario the Chrono lets me pick up any one of those D6 dice rolls and re-roll it.

-Yad

Except its there in ATSKNF. We know what specific means in 40k terms.

The intent is to reroll a D6 roll, which we know they intend (because they wrote this, very specifically) to be different to a 2D6+ roll.

Yad - except that a 2D6 roll is different to a D6 roll. The rules state they are different things. That is what the rules allow.

Like ND, you are wrong on thsi one.

Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

A hit! A palpable hit!

However, I must point out that the point that 3d6 = 3 rolls still doesn't negate the point about specificity. The only precedent I know of on that point (Sweeping Advance) indicates that a higher degree of specificity is required in order to override a rule which calls for something "specific" than the Chronometron rule provides.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Except it doesn't say that anymore.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Page 26 – Runes of Witnessing
Change the last two sentences to “A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Did you just cherry-pick the verbage from a late edition codex and apply it to your entire argument (and consequently all of 40K)?

I haven't been following this thread at all, but I hope that's not your strongest defense throughout.



Edit: Yeah. . .see below.

Yad wrote:"...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase..."

My point stands, it says you can re-roll one of his D6 rolls. 2D6 is not a D6 roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

That is not correct.

Eldar Update Version 1.1 wrote:“A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result."