For those of you not familiar with the concept of Maximum Threat Overload, basically it is my strategy of overloading my opponent with more threats than he can handle, all at the same time. Necrons actually excel at this due to some very fast and dangerous units that they have in their codex. In the list that I've designed, I've got 7 extremely fast and dangerous units that will be hitting my opponents lines all but Turn 2 in most cases - 2 wraiths, 2 command barges, 2 doom scythes and 1 scarabs. Then for my support units, I have a cryptek with Solar Pulse to protect my army in the case my opponent goes first, 4 minimum troop choices for objectives and a unit of spyders to keep producing scarabs as well as for counter-assault purposes and psychic defense.
Recently, I had a little debate with a certain blogger with regards to necron tactics. He doesn't believe that "close-combat" crons are a viable build and that wraiths were crap. By the ways, this person plays and advocates pure shooty MSU. So I thought it would be fun to pit my "close-combat" MTO crons against one of his MSU armies. Now I don't know whether this is his army or not, but I pulled it from his website because I thought it was good example of a competitive MSU army.
I did make some slight modifications to the original Necron MTO list. I felt that it could use a little more shooting to make it slightly more balanced (it is still, however, a very unbalanced list). Thus, I've de-emphasized my uber Overlords in order to get a few more lance-teks into my list.
Now this battle won't really prove anything. I don't think my crons will ever get the recognition they deserves until they can win a few tournaments, and that is something that I won't be able to do any time soon (because I don't really have the time to go to tournaments unless they're local). But what I hope to show is that I think it will make for a competitive and tough fight for any other army out there, including shooty MSU.
Basically, the BAO missions include all three missions at once - Annihilation, Capture and Control & Seize Ground. Whoever wins the most missions wins the game.
Deployment: Pitched Battle
Initiative: Space Wolves
Map of the terrain.
2 seize ground and 1 capture and control (turtle) objectives on this side of the board.
And the other 2 seize ground and 1 C&C objective on the other side of the board.
The SW list is funny, because Melta's are only so effective, and even less so when your Doom Scythes get killed by those Missile Launchers. Assuming they do, of course. I've never had a Doom Scythe or Night Scythe live past turn 2.
It will be a very tough fight for the Necrons, but the Doom Scythes can do some truly silly things against all those transports if the angles work out correctly.
Interesting terrain. Ideally the bunker side would be better for the long fangs however I notice only one objective on that side. Also no cover in the center of the map which leaves a lot to be desired for necrons. So I think Jy2 wins KP due to the large kp difference, draw for command control even though Jy2 has the mobility with his units to last round contest ,and draw on objectives for last second contest due to necron mobility(scarabs,wraiths have phasing, fast barges) and going second so i am voting necrons win this by Kp.
MSU: First of all, what is MSU? MSU, or multiple-small units, is a way of building one's army competitively that usually involves minimizing the sizes of units and maximizing the number of those units to maximize firepower (offense) while creating target saturation. This type of min/maxing list philosophy usually includes the following characteristics:
- Multiple minimum-sized units. For example, instead of taking full 10-man squads in rhinos, MSU lists will usually take 5-man units in razorbacks (or whatever transports they come with).
- Spamming units. MSU lists will take multiples of these min-sized squads. Instead of 3 10-man squds, they will take 6 5-man squads with transports. MSU lists usually fill up the FOC slots.
- Maximum fierpower. The reason to take min-sized suqads is to maximize firepower. Bascially for MSU-mech, you take the minimum sized squads necessary to acquire the heavy or special weapons. Once you acquire that heavy/special weapon, you move on to the next unit. Why take 10-man squads when a 5-man unit is all you need to take that razorback with heavy weapon?
- Target Saturation. Now this is perhaps one of the most important goals of MSU design. The goal of MSU builds is to create as many threats/targets as possible. Each unit should be about equal in threat in a pure MSU list. That is what makes target prioritization difficult for the opponent. No single unit is ever truly more dangerous than another. That is why pure MSU has no deathstar or uber units. That is because they 1) reduce/dilute the firepower in the army and 2) make target prioritization easy for the opponent.
- Redundancy. MSU lists emphasize redundancy so that losing any particular unit will minimize the effect on the overall output of hte army. Wipe out 1 unit of grey hunters? There's 5 more where that came from. Kill my unit of long fangs and I still have 2 more units to destroy your tanks with. Even thought the individual units are not so resilient, the army on the whole is actually very resilient due to its redundancy.
- How to deal with enemy deathstars? MSU mech deals with enemy assault units differently form most conventional lists. From a glance, their 5-man units appear to be quite fragile and easily overcome by any unit with even an ounce of assault. How do you handle these units? By screening and sacrificing. Use transports/vehicles to block off dangerous units. Sacrifice a 5-man squad in assault if you have to. The name of the game is to delay the enemy so that you can shoot them some more. Make them go through a sacrificial unit - whether infantry or transport - and you've just bought yourself another turn of shooting.
- Kill Point heavy. Shooty MSU lists are usually high in firepower. However, they also tend to be high in kill points as well. That is just an inherent flaw of MSU lists and the philosophy of target saturation. However, the firepower that these lists normally possess is in many cases enought to torrent most opponents off the board, annihilation or otherwise.
Thus, while MSU lists may look weak with only 5-man units and no scary uber units, in practice they are actually qutie strong. Many believe that properly built MSU armies are some of the most competitive armies in the game currently. I myself incorporate elements of MSU design philosophy in my lists, with 5-man warrior units and multiple fast and dangerous units for target saturation in my MTO necrons.
Necrons: I've had decent success against MSU mech-spam with my MTO necrons. However, my experience with them is quite limited as I've only played a handful of games with them. I feel that my army has the tools to deal with mech. Now the only question is, do I have the resiliency to absorb all those S8/9 shooting? His startegy should be to block off my wraiths with his tranports and then counter-attack them with shooting and perhaps even assault after I've destroyed his vehicles.
In the Bay Area Open (BAO) missions, I think I will have the advantage in Kill Points as he has a lot more KP's than my necrons and his KP's are relatively easier to get. However, he will probably have the advantage in the objectives-based missions with more scoring units and up to 15 vehicles that can be used to contest objectives with.
I think for my necrons to pull off the victory, I need to keep the pressure on and contain him in his own deployment zone. If I can keep him occupied there with my threats, then I will have the advantage. That is, of course, assuming that I can survive his shooting. Also, a key to how well I do may depend on how well my doom scythes do. If they can get at least 1 good turn of shooting through, then this may actually be an easy game for my crons. If not, then it may be an uphill battle for me.
He's definitely got enough to deal with most of my threats. What he may have problems with is dealing with my scarabs. His target prioritization should be the doom scythes and command barges first. After that, then the wraiths. He also needs to be wary of my mini-scarab farm. If he lets it get too big, I can do some serious damage to his transports as well as overwhelm his 5-man units. Or I can use them to tarpit/kill his long fangs.
Night-fight will be a nuisance but not as much as you would think. Free searchlights and the fact that I will be coming towards him will help mitigate it somewhat. Basically, the only real protection it offers is to my warriors. He should have no problems seeing my faster, offensive units.
The key to surviving my onslaught is for the wolves to spread out. He also needs to go after my objectives early and force me to divert some of my resources to deal with those "threats". But all that is moot if he can simply torrent me off the table.
Basically, the BAO missions include all three missions at once - Annihilation, Capture and Control & Seize Ground. Whoever wins the most missions wins the game.
2 seize ground and 1 capture and control (turtle) objectives on this side of the board.
And the other 2 seize ground and 1 C&C objective on the other side of the board.
SW deployment. All the razorbacks have lascannons and tl-plasmas. The 3 center rhinos (2 black and 1 grey) have 3 wolf guards with 2 combi-meltas in them.
Another perspective of the SW deployment. No reserves.
Necron deployment. Vendettas are used as doom scythes. Half of my wraiths are using tyranid proxies.
Another perspective of my deployment. No reserves for necrons either.
I take a gamble here. I don't think my doom scythe has a very good target so I just move it up slightly. I'm hoping that night-fight will protect it and next turn, I should have some juicier targets.
The rest of my army advances.
On my right, both my command barge and doom scythe move flat-out. Again, I am taking a gamble here with my doom scythe, hoping for a bigger payoff next turn. I'm pretty sure that my opponent should be able to spotlight it, but between cover and my command barge being so close to his lines, I'm hoping it will survive his volley.
What can I say....I'm a gambling man.
Shooting by my lance-teks, of which 2 is without cover, manages to pen both wolf guard rhinos. Unfortunately, I roll 2 's on the damage charts to only shake each rhino.
My units then run.
Now let's see how "resilient" my necrons are with the help of night-fight.
Space Wolves 1
Spoiler:
His far-right rhino only moves 6" so that he can use his searchlight. Speeders move 12" each.
His front rhinos (and the shaken rhinos) move about 12" and pop smoke. They are trying to make a screen to block out my wraiths. The rhino between the 2 black rhinos only move 6" in order to use its searchlight. Razors move at combat speed.
Finally, on his left, his rhino moves 12" and drop off his melta-hunters. Speeder moves 12" as well. We make a mistake here. His rhino successfully spotlights my doom scythe even though he went 12"....
....and the result is devastating. Speeder fires its multi-melta and pops my doom scythe. Melta-hunters then fire at my command barge and glances it. He immobilizes the command barge, which I transfer to 1 Wound on my Overlord instead.
Yes, I am aware of the controversy with regards to getting immobilized while moving flat-out, but we interpreted and played it as the transfer of the wound takes precedence over getting wrecked. For those who don't agree, consider it a "houserule" in our game.
SW: 1, Necrons: 0
What's worse, however, is that his other rhino rolls for his night-fight check against my other doom scythe. The speeders and a couple of razorbacks then shoot it down as well.
The melta-hunters inside his rhino then fires at my command barge and explode it as well! Ouch!!!
SW: 3, Necrons: 0
On the bright side, his rhino spotlights my center wraiths and then he fires his entire army at them - 3 long fangs and the remaining razors. He doesn't kill a single wraith as I pass all my saves.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
Man, that turn hurts. 3 of my heavy hitters gone, just like that. It could have actually been much worse had my saves for my wraiths been slightly more average. I took a gamble and this time, it came back to really hurt me. Now I've got to salvage what I can to keep this game from becoming a blow-out. At least I've got my wraiths at full strength still.
Overlord goes after the rhino.
Wraiths jump over the LOS-blocking hill and prepare for a multi-assault. The black rhino moved at cruising while the metallic one only moved 6" last turn.
The other unit of wraiths prepare for a multi-charge as well. Both of those rhinos moved at cruising speed last turn.
Command barge flies over his speeder. I pen it once and then roll a to shake it only. Overlord disembarks and get ready to put the hurt on his hunters.
Spyders and scarabs advance. 1 spyder took 1 Wound from spawning.
In my Shooting phase, 1 of the lance-teks wrecks his Rune Priest's ride despite cover from smoke. That is all my shooting does.
SW: 3, Necrons: 1
The right Overlord assaults the rhino....
....and wrecks it.
SW: 3, Necrons: 2
Left Overlord assault into the grey hunters. Mindshackle scarabs kill 1 grey hunter.
My Overlord then kills another 2 hunters. I win combat by 3 but they pass morale.
Left wraiths multi-assault both rhinos.
Needing 6's to hit, I explode 1 rhino and weapon destroy and immobilize the other one. Fortunately for me, the grey hunters get pinned in the explosion, though none dies. (BTW, I used flamer models but that unit actually had meltas instead.) My wraiths take 1W from the explosion.
SW: 3, Necrons: 3
Finally, wraiths and scarabs both multi-assault several units. Wraiths hit 2 rhinos. Scarabs hit his HQ unit and the black rhino.
Scarabs fail to kill any wolf guards or to even hurt the black rhino. Wraiths stun, immobilize and weapon destroy the metallic rhino which moved at combat speed last turn but also fails to hurt the black rhino. Finally, Rune Priest with wolf guards kill off 4 scarab bases after combat and No Retreat saves. My gloom prism fails to block off his force weapon.
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
Time for some space wolf retaliation. I pop off my second Solar Pulse to make it Night-fight again.
Melta-hunters and both land speeders go after my right Overlord.
Black rhino moves out of the way of my wraiths. 3 units of space wolves (melta unit, flamer unit and 1 unit of wolf guards) disembark and get ready to dish out some pain.
On the left, razorback advances 12" and his 2nd unit of flamer hunters disembark. Melta-hunters also disembark from their immobilized rhino.
This turn is the make-it-or-break-it turn for my necrons. Space wolves are about to focus almost the entirety of their army onto my 2 units of wraiths. If they succeed, it's going to be a quick game for my crons.
Finally, empty rhino and speeder move at cruising speed. They are setting themselves up to contest my Seize Ground objective. Speeder fires at my command barge without cover. Fortunately for me, it fails to hit.
Melta-hunters and speeders fire at my Overlord. Fortunately for me, my HQ is slightly obscured by the wreck and makes 2 out of 4 cover saves (as well as his armour saves). He lives with just 1W left.
Space wolves now focus 1 razorback (didn't move to fire all weapons), 2 melta units, 1 flamer unit and 1 unit of long fangs on my right wraiths. They kill 2 and put 1W on a 3rd wraith.
On the left, 2 razorbacks (didn't move in order to fire all guns), the melta-hunters, flamer-hunters and 2 units of long fangs fire at my left wraiths. They kill 3 and put 1W on a 4th.
Wolves then combo-charge my right wraiths with 2 units of grey hunters.
Fortunately for the necrons, my wraiths win combat 3 to 2. Both units of grey hunters pass their morale.
On the left, only the melta unit is able to make the charge against my wraiths. The flamer unit is about 1" out of assault range.
We tie combat with 1 Wound apiece.
My wraiths survive! I have a slim chance....
Doh!!! Hunters only cause 2W to my Overlord with the 2+ save. I then roll for my saves.
He then fails to get back up.
SW: 4, Necrons: 3
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Another spyder takes 1W while spawning scarabs. Here comes the reinforcement.
Command barge moves flat-out.
I get a clear view of his skimmers with my lance-teks. Each lance-tek gets 1-shot, 1-kill. The explosions take out 1grey hunter and 1 wolf guard.
SW: 4, Necrons: 5
Wolf guards then fail morale (I believe on an 11) and fall back.
Overlord and spyders then charge the unit of grey hunters. Spyders also multi-assault the rhino (which moved 6" last turn).
Together, they wipe out all but 2 of the hunters and explode the rhino. Hunters then break and fall back. Spyders consolidate towards the immobilized rhino to get cover from his long fangs.
SW: 4, Necrons: 6
In the right wraith combat, we tie combat with 2W apiece.
Scarabs finally kill his Rune Priest along with a wolf guard. They win combat 3 to 2. Wolf guards pass morale.
SW: 4, Necrons: 7
Finally, my left wraiths kill 2 hunters, who also happen to pass morale as well.
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
Wolf guards run off the board but the hunters only fall back 2" to remain on the board still. Neither could regroup because there was an enemy unit within 6" of both units.
SW: 4, Necrons: 8
Flamer unit gets back into the razorback. Their plan is to go contest my objective and to kill some warriors. Unfortunately for my opponent, his razor immobilizes itself on terrain. The unit of hunters who were pinned last turn goes to help out their comrades.
Speeder and rhino moves back a little to get cover from my lance-tek. It is not quite time to contest yet. Speeder fires at my command barge but I make my cover.
Because 1 razor failed, he has to send another razor 12" towards my deployment zone, popping smoke in the process.
1 razorback finally shoots down my Overlord with a lascannon and 2 twin-linked plasma shots. He would not get back up.
SW: 5, Necrons: 8
All 3 units of long fangs fire at my spyders and put several wounds on them, but they survive thanks to cover.
Finally, his rhino actually repairs itself.
I am slowly killing off his hunters on the right.
His friends join into the left wraith combat.
Amazingly, after 24 space wolf attacks, he fails to cause a single unsaved wound! Wraiths kill 1 hunter and actually win combat! That was a pleasant surprise. I was expecting to lose both of my wraiths in that exchange.
Finally, scarabs finish off his wolf guards and consolidate out of the wreck.
McNinja wrote:The SW list is funny, because Melta's are only so effective, and even less so when your Doom Scythes get killed by those Missile Launchers. Assuming they do, of course. I've never had a Doom Scythe or Night Scythe live past turn 2.
Meltas are quite effective here and can kill anything in my army if they can get within range. Without phase shifters, my Overlords are vulnerable to them, as are the spyders. They are a threat to doubling-out both wraiths and scarabs.
But regarding my scythes, you're quite right. Usually my doom scythes, with the exception of 1 game, do not live long enough to fire off its death ray more than once.
Zid wrote:Odd sw list lol, look forward to it
It's definitely a lot different than your conventional lists.
Smitty0305 wrote:I think SW will wreck house pretty easily
I think it could go either ways. My crons are quite resilient, though that may be matched by the firepower of the wolves. I think it will come down to 2 things - 1) how well my doom scythes do before they croak and 2) how well I do on my saves for the wraiths.
If both goes my way, then I think my necrons can "wreck house". If only 1 goes my way, then it will be a tough fight for my crons. If neither goes my way, then it'll probably be an easy game for the wolves.
G. Whitenbeard wrote:It will be a very tough fight for the Necrons, but the Doom Scythes can do some truly silly things against all those transports if the angles work out correctly.
Agreed.
whitespirit wrote:Interesting terrain. Ideally the bunker side would be better for the long fangs however I notice only one objective on that side. Also no cover in the center of the map which leaves a lot to be desired for necrons. So I think Jy2 wins KP due to the large kp difference, draw for command control even though Jy2 has the mobility with his units to last round contest ,and draw on objectives for last second contest due to necron mobility(scarabs,wraiths have phasing, fast barges) and going second so i am voting necrons win this by Kp.
In this case, bunkers wouldn't really matter much to the wolves because my crons don't have much shooting. Also, there is actually quite a lot of cover, including a large LOS-blocking hill on 1 side and a large terrain piece on the other side....not that my crons really care about cover (I make my own cover).
I agree with the necrons taking KP and C&C being a draw. However, I am not so sure about Seize Ground. Wolves have just too many transports that they can use to try to contest. That is honestly a toss-up IMO.
pretre wrote:Yay! jy2 BR. Looking forward to it.
Finally, right? It's been a while since I've played a competitive game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote:Comparing the lists, I'd go with the Necrons.
However, on account of the terrain and game type/deployment, I've had to go with the Space Wolves.
Should be a great game either way though.
Yeah, I think it'll be a great game also. Either that or a blow-out by the space wolves.
Necrons stealing is huge. I was going to say SW, but after that dice roll I have changed my mind. Turn 1 I feel will allow you to push hard and provide a lot of threat saturation, followed up by a Turn 2 slaughter.
I am foreseeing the game being in the bag for 1 side by turn 3 since the Necron list is so aggressive. Necrons are either going to win big or come close to being tabled, though my money is on a Necron win.
Those razorbacks and rhinos are going to have a hard time dealing with STR 10 AP 1 Shots and the CCBs, Taking the right angles, night fighting, and good saves could see them popped like eggshells, and multi-assaulting wraiths into the then exposed troops will be a synch.
However, if the doom scythes don't get a chance to fire, this will be a very rough day for the Necrons.
Out of curiosity, with such little cover, would it have been perhaps wise to deep strike the doom scythes right next to his formation, and then blast them right away? It would take away the chance of them getting blown away first, but then I suppose you risk scatter problems.
It seems the shooty MSU Space Wolves list is mostly effective at mid and short range. Wraiths and Overlords slice small MEQ units like hot knife through butter. Wraiths are also jump infantry, which lessens vehicle wall effectiveness.
I've played and read games of jy2's MTO Necrons against other MSU lists, but I don't recall reading any that boast the number of vehicles as the one jy2 is currently going up against.
This will be an interesting match up. I still think MTO Necrons will come out victorious, unless jy2's dice rolls below overage for his Wraiths and WBB saves.
Against a very good player. I'll tell you a little later when I am done with the report.
Lukus83 wrote:Necrons stealing is huge. I was going to say SW, but after that dice roll I have changed my mind. Turn 1 I feel will allow you to push hard and provide a lot of threat saturation, followed up by a Turn 2 slaughter.
I am foreseeing the game being in the bag for 1 side by turn 3 since the Necron list is so aggressive. Necrons are either going to win big or come close to being tabled, though my money is on a Necron win.
Good analysis. I hope you're right, though it's looking more like necrons losing big at this point (after Turn 2).
iGuy91 wrote:Those razorbacks and rhinos are going to have a hard time dealing with STR 10 AP 1 Shots and the CCBs, Taking the right angles, night fighting, and good saves could see them popped like eggshells, and multi-assaulting wraiths into the then exposed troops will be a synch.
However, if the doom scythes don't get a chance to fire, this will be a very rough day for the Necrons.
Out of curiosity, with such little cover, would it have been perhaps wise to deep strike the doom scythes right next to his formation, and then blast them right away? It would take away the chance of them getting blown away first, but then I suppose you risk scatter problems.
I may have to consider deepstriking my doom scythes next time. At the very least, I need to move both flat-out (I didn't move one of them flat-out because I didn't have the space to do so in the direction where I wanted to go). I took a stupid gamble with them and it cost me big.
Yikes.
I think the lesson here is,
"If you deploy Doom Scythes, be prepared to use them first turn ('cause you're pretty much guaranteed not to have them next turn)"
Valek wrote:Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
Actually if you go flat out, an immobilized result is upgraded to Destroyed-Wrecked.
What you are thinking of is the passengers being killed since they cannot disembark in that movement phase.
You have the SW out of their Bawkses which is good, I think the Spyders might be able to move into the combats to start making a dent in those squads.
It is a shame about the Scythes, I thought you might reserve them originally or concentrate them on one side to limit the number of spotlights available.
Guys, I'd like to ask a favor. I took too many pictures (probably about 120!) for this game. If I post the whole report on p.1, it's going to be real slow in loading for some. I'd like to finish off the rest of the report on p.2 if possible. Please bump it up with comments. Thanks.
Ok. Here's my comment. This game is awesome. Man, you can really see the resiliency (did I spell that right?) of the Wraiths. I was sure they'd be dead in turn 2, and here they've survived through 3. Makes me even more anxious to get my hands on some of the new wraith models.
Madmax1 wrote:Ok. Here's my comment. This game is awesome. Man, you can really see the resiliency (did I spell that right?) of the Wraiths. I was sure they'd be dead in turn 2, and here they've survived through 3. Makes me even more anxious to get my hands on some of the new wraith models.
It is kind of crazy that those wraiths are still standing after all of the hits they took.
Does anyone know how many posts are displayed before you move to another page?
I can usually only remember to take 3 or 4 total pictures during a game, Kudos for collecting 30 times as many.
Edit: Wow what a pair of turns as well - this seems to have slipped in favor of the Necrons - those 2 Wraiths demonstrate how annoying a 3++ can be on multiwound models.
calypso2ts wrote:Does anyone know how many posts are displayed before you move to another page?
I can usually only remember to take 3 or 4 total pictures during a game, Kudos for collecting 30 times as many.
Edit: Wow what a pair of turns as well - this seems to have slipped in favor of the Necrons - those 2 Wraiths demonstrate how annoying a 3++ can be on multiwound models.
30 posts and it goes onto the next page.
Yeah, momentum is shifting.
SabrX wrote:It seems the shooty MSU Space Wolves list is mostly effective at mid and short range. Wraiths and Overlords slice small MEQ units like hot knife through butter. Wraiths are also jump infantry, which lessens vehicle wall effectiveness.
I've played and read games of jy2's MTO Necrons against other MSU lists, but I don't recall reading any that boast the number of vehicles as the one jy2 is currently going up against.
This will be an interesting match up. I still think MTO Necrons will come out victorious, unless jy2's dice rolls below overage for his Wraiths and WBB saves.
This MSU build isn't quite as shooty as, say, Reece's Bjorn wolves (at least not in terms of ranged shooting). However, that is not always a bad thing. The issue I see with Reece's list is that it plays like a pure gunline. Sure he's got some mobile elements, but the army on the whole doesn't really advocate advancing and getting into position. This build does. It requires you to advance you melta-hunters and wolf guards. To me, that is actually a good thing. It satisfies my requirement of Positional Dominance, or moving to get into good positions to win the game at the end. Essentially, it plays exactly like the Sisters of Battle with 3 exorcists and all those meltas. You rush the opponent and put pressure on them. Fortunately for my crons, no MEQ army really applies pressure quite like my MTO necrons. It is almost always the more aggressive army.
As for screening out jump infantry, it can still be done. Ideally, what you want to do is stop about 9-12" away from them. If you get any closer, then they can jump over you. If you stop further away, then they gain extra movement with their 12" move and then up to 6" charge.
The most tanks they've faced I believe is 12 against your Sisters of Battle. After that, it is 10 against my purifiers (6 rhinos and 4 dreads).
So far, wraiths have been rolling amazingly well. Can't say the same for the rest of my army. Lol.
iGuy91 wrote:Ouch, 3 of your biggest threats knocked out in a turn. Thats very, very bad.
I would say it would have been better if you deep struck the doom scythes in.
Yeah, I may try that out next time....or maybe even swap out my doom scythes for something else.
Valek wrote:Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
If you go flat out in your turn and they shoot in their next turn there is no problem.
Think you made an error in even deploying the scythes, they should have been in reserves is what i am thinking, if not both one should.
Sorry, I think I might have confused some of the readers. The command barge has this special rule called Symbiotic Repair. What it is is if the barge gets immobilized (or weapon destroyed), you can ignore that result by transferring it directly into 1W on the IC in the transport.
However, the controversy here is that when going flat-out, immobilized results immediately becomes wrecked. So which comes first, the wrecked result or Symbiotic Repair? Some say the former. Others the latter. I'm in the camp that says you apply Symbiotic Repair before it becomes a wreck from moving flat-out. So I'm saying that for those who don't agree with this ruling, just consider it as our house-rule.
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skoffs wrote:Yikes.
I think the lesson here is,
"If you deploy Doom Scythes, be prepared to use them first turn ('cause you're pretty much guaranteed not to have them next turn)"
Yeah, I should've. Should've said "to heck with it" and blasted his transports on Turn 1. Even if I had killed 1 rhino only per, it would've still been better than what happened in the game with them. Then again, that's looking at it from hindsight.
gpfunk wrote:Those wraiths can take a lot of punishment! After all those dudes disembarked I thought it was a wipe, but damn if they didn't stay up!
Except 1 game against 9 war walker eldar, my wraiths have been incredibly resilient so far. Honestly, I also thought he would have wiped them out on Turn 2, but I was just making saves like a boss.
calypso2ts wrote:
Valek wrote:Flat out and wrecking is only in your turn, and can only happen with a difficult terain test... so no houseruling.
Actually if you go flat out, an immobilized result is upgraded to Destroyed-Wrecked.
What you are thinking of is the passengers being killed since they cannot disembark in that movement phase.
You have the SW out of their Bawkses which is good, I think the Spyders might be able to move into the combats to start making a dent in those squads.
It is a shame about the Scythes, I thought you might reserve them originally or concentrate them on one side to limit the number of spotlights available.
Spyders actually helped out a lot this game. Don't count them out. They are very good against normal MEQ units, especially if they are lacking hidden Power Fists.
I definitely misplayed my scythes. I took a gamble that, in hindsight, wasn't really a good one. If you don't get to shooting them on Turn 1, then you definitely need to make sure they are getting both cover and night-fight. Either that or perhaps reserve them.
Wow, this is turning around quickly. The resilience of wraiths in the assault, and that massive farm of scarabs that went unchecked, is gonna cause some problems. Hopefully your babysitting warriors can keep him away from your objectives.
Man, what a turn around!
GO TEAM CANOPTEK!
It's be awesome to see the unit of Warriors come around the side of that building and open up on the vehicles harassing the Command Barge.
We shall see.
*waits patiently for turn 4*
Despite the beating that my necrons have taken, I may now have a slight advantage. Here is where my strategy of Positional Dominance comes into play. If you've noticed on the board, all the action is all happening on my opponent's side of the board. My necron warriors are relatively unthreatened. That is because my crons are the ones dictating where the fights are taking place. And they are doing it in the Movement phase by establishing good, advantageous positions. With Positional Dominance, only my opponent's objectives are threatened. Mines are relatively safe. Basically, he is fighting not to lose them.
But that may be changing. He sees this and he's got 2 transports and 1 land speeder poised to go after my objectives very soon, and I've only got a couple of lances to defend them with.
Command barge moves flat-out and gets ready to contest next turn.
Scarabs get ready for a huge 3-way multi-assault. After this, his 2 long fangs won't be a threat any more.
I fire 3 lances at his razor and only manage to destroy its twin-linked plasma. I guess my shooting is cooling down.
Spyders then multi-assault 2 transports. Both didn't move last turn. The razor stayed still to fire everything at my Overlord and the rhino had just un-immobilized itself last turn.
Scarabs actually assault 4 units - 2 long fangs and both transports.
In combat, my wraiths actually lose by 1!
On the left, we tie combat with 2W apiece.
Scarabs pop the razor and kill 3 long fangs. They then lose 3 bases and 2W to long fangs and the explosion.
SW: 5, Necrons: 10
Finally my spyders wreck the rhino and weapon destroy and stun the razor.
SW: 5, Necrons: 11
Space Wolves 4
Spoiler:
Flamer hunters run off the board.
SW: 5, Necrons: 12
Razor zooms 12" towards my necrons. His speeder moves flat-out.
Now is the time to contest. Grey hunters go to contest my left Seize Ground objective.
Flamer-hunters disembark from the immobilized razor and go after the objectives. They only manage to run 1" so cannot reach the 2 objectives.
Long fangs fire at my command barge but cannot even successfully glance it. Neither can the razors.
In combat, hunters put 1W on my wraith, who fail to do any damage in return.
On the right, long fangs kill off 2 scarab bases and lose 1 missile launcher.
My wraiths then finish off his 2 grey hunters.
SW: 5, Necrons: 13
Lastly, spyders then wreck his razorback.
SW: 5, Necrons: 14
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
SW are beginning to make a play for the objectives. The problem is, they only have 2 free troop units to do it with (and one of them is on their way to contest my objective)!
I actually lose 1 spyder to spawning. Wraiths go after his C&C objective.
Command barge moves flat-out to contest his Seize Ground objective.
Warriors shuffle around to get better firing angles.
Spyders go to help out their babies.
I fire 4 lances and a bunch of rapid-fire gauss into his 2 transports, immobilizing both vehicles as well as taking off the lascannon from the razor.
Wraiths have to run to contest the space wolf C&C objective.
In Assault, his hunters finally finish off my wraith.
SW: 6, Necrons: 14
Spyders fail to reach combat, but my scarabs kill off 3 long fangs anyways to win combat. Long fangs stick around.
Space Wolves 5
Spoiler:
This may be the last turn. Speeder goes flat-out to contest the necron C&C objective.
Grey hunters disembark and get ready to assault. They may actually be able to take my objective! Fortunately for me, their shooting does nothing as my warriors pass their cover saves.
The 2 hunter units who wiped out my lone wraith last turn start to scramble for the objectives.
Flamer-hunters then spread out to claim 2 objectives.
Despite the necron comeback, SW are still in a decent position to win this game. In order to do so, they need for 3 of the following to happen:
1. Take out my 2 wraiths. He would then claim his C&C objective while mine is contested.
2. Wipe out my warriors on my objective with his 3-man hunter unit. He would then claim that objective.
3. Take out my command barge. He would then claim his Seize Ground objective.
4. Get a good run roll to make it to his other Seize Ground objective.
#1 is a must. If he cannot do that, then the most he can do is tie the game. If he can satisfy #1 and 1 more condition, then he will get the draw. If he can satisfy #1 and 2 more conditions, then he will win.
And by the ways, he needs for the game to end this turn as well.
Rhino actually shoots down 1 warrior.
Lone hunter (whom I shall dub Hun Solo) runs and actually makes it to his objective!
He fires 2 stationary razors at my command barge. Not even a scratch.
Then he focuses the rest of his army - his long fangs, rapid-fire flamer-hunters and rapid-fire melta-hunters - at my wraiths. They survive with just 1W of damage!!!
After failing to kill any warriors with shooting, grey hunters assault, hoping to wipe them out.
Not in my house, boy! My warriors actually win combat!
Finally, scarabs only kill 1 long fang, but he is the last member from the right long fangs.
Currently, my necrons are winning in Annihilation.
Both Capture and Control objectives are contested.
Finally, we are both holding 1 Seize Ground objective each (the others are contested).
We roll to see if the game continues and....
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
The game continues. Overview of Turn 6. Necrons basically own the entire right half of the board.
Command barge moves flat-out to contest SW C&C objective. Wraiths prepare to assault the flamer-hunters, thus pulling them away from the Seize Ground objective that they are on.
Spyders spawn 2 scarabs and then go to deal with Hunt Solo on the objective.
Warriors prepare to rapid-fire his contesting speeder into oblivion. 10 gauss shots and 2 lances only manage to stun the skimmer.
Here I just need to get rid of the rhino and 1 hunter in combat to claim the objective. Shooting only takes off the rhino stormbolter, and then 5-on-1, I fail to kill his lone troop in combat.
Spyders assault Hunt Solo.
They wipe him out. Scarabs also wipe out the long fangs.
SW: 6, Necrons: 17
Finally, my wraiths assault.
It is a tie combat.
Space Wolves 6
Spoiler:
Hunters opt to try to get to his Seize Ground objective because my wraith and command barge are both contesting his C&C objective.
They then run....but it is not enough due to a poor run roll.
It takes his long fangs and both razorbacks to finally bring down my command barge.
SW: 7, Necrons: 17
Finally, in combat, my wraith takes down 1 more hunter.
We roll to see if the game continues and it does not.
Necrons: I'm pretty sure that assault necrons can compete, but honestly, I had no idea how this game was going to end. It started off with Space Wolves rolling well and the crons rolling poorly. It then ended with Necrons rolling well and wolves rolling more like average. Despite losing a huge portion of my offense initially, necrons do have the resiliency to stick it out if you have the patience (and it did help that wraiths were rolling well with their saves when it counted).
My strategy, as usual with my MTO necrons, was to bumrush the SW army and try to lock them inside their own deployment zone. And for the most part, it worked. He was forced to disembark from his vehicles to deal with my wraiths. Once he assaulted them, he was "stuck" with his scoring units locked in combat. This made it hard for him to even go after the objectives part of the missions. That had been my plan all along - to kill off his troops or to incapacitate them (i.e. by locking them up in combat so that they can't go for objectives). Unfortunately for the wolves, they had no choice but to try to wipe out my wraiths. That is just how they operate. Focus-fire on the biggest threats until you wipe them out. Fortunately for my crons, they were not able to do that.
This game, I have to give a lot of the credit to my "secondary offense" - the spyders and scarabs. They were highly effective this game and their contributions were arguably just as great as the wraiths. They also helped to lock down the opponent's army and to secure the entire right flank, killing off 2 units of long fangs, the Rune Priest, several infantry squads and numerous vehicles. They just reaffirm to me how important and efficient a (mini) scarab farm could be and is in a necron army. They were just absolutely brilliant in this game. I feel that you cannot go wrong by adding them into almost any necron list.
Lance-tek shooting also contributed to this game, blowing up 2 land speeders and incapacitating several rhinos. They were hot initially but cooled down towards the end. Still, my decision to add more lance-teks to my army proved to be a wise one.
Finally, I would say that the wraiths were the stars in this game. Not necessarily by how much they killed, but also by how much they were able to take for the army. They absorbed almost any entire MSU army's shooting and still endured to be be a credible threat! They bought some time for my secondary wave of scarabs and spyders to come in and help clean up. They also did their share of damage to the SW transports and troops. I believe that had they fallen on Turn 2, my necrons would have also fallen.
In short, I'm not really surprised by the performance of my MTO necrons. What did surprise me, however, is their comeback after the disastrous Turn 1. Honestly, I had doubts after the first turn that necrons could take this game with what was essentially a 1570pt army against a 2K one. But they responded and did me proud.
Space Wolves: I think MSU is definitely a viable build. If you can stomach its somewhat bland repetitiveness and inherent weakness in Annihilation, you'll find that a MSU build is actually a pretty effective and competitive army. Is it for everyone? Definitely not. Most people will find it "boring" and perhaps even "inflexible" due to lack of assault elements and/or variety. However, the underlying principles and strategy of an MSU army is actually very sound - to overwhelm your opponent with numbers. I myself incorporate a lot of the principles of MSU into many of my armies.
This SW build plays much differently than that of, say, MSU missile-spam Space Wolves. It emphasizes more on mobilizing your forces instead of just sitting and shooting as is normal with razor-spam/long fang-spam SW. While they don't have quite the alpha strike capabilities of missile-wolves, this type of army is more focused on getting into positions to both hurt the enemy as well as getting into advantageous positions. In a nutshell, it plays more like a Sisters of Battle army.
In this game, SW played it like they should have. They went after the fast and dangerous targets first - the doom scythes and command barges - and downed them rather successfully. Then they advanced their rhino as they should and blocked off my wraiths. But not only did they block them off, they offered up the rhinos as "bait" to lure my wraiths towards their counter-attack. My wraiths had no choice but to assault them, thus taking the "bait". Finally, SW prepared for the counter-attack and focused their entire army on my wraiths. I was just fortunate to survive, but had I rolled more average, my wraiths would probably not have survived both his shooting and then his assault thereafter. So, despite giving up a huge KP disadvantage, if the SW could have finished off my wraiths, then they could have dominated this game. That's just how MSU armies operate, and in the eyes of a knowledgeable general, there really isn't any surprise in this game. Both armies just did what they normally would have done in any game.
In closing, I didn't do this battle to show whether MSU armies are good or not. In my mind, I know they are good (though somewhat "boring" at times). Rather, what I had hoped to show was that non-shooty necrons, or assault crons to some, can be a viable, competitive build. They are not that common now as many are still experimenting with the new crons, but give them some time (say, 6 months from now) and you will start seeing more hybrid and assault necron armies start to place more often in competitive play. They definitely have the tools to do so.
@jy2 - Not that I want you to give up all of your secrets, but any chance we could get an anti-Wraith tactica? Those things scare the bejeezus out of me!
Madmax1 wrote:Ok. Here's my comment. This game is awesome. Man, you can really see the resiliency (did I spell that right?) of the Wraiths. I was sure they'd be dead in turn 2, and here they've survived through 3. Makes me even more anxious to get my hands on some of the new wraith models.
pretre wrote:It is kind of crazy that those wraiths are still standing after all of the hits they took.
Yeah, they're quite resilient if you kit them out for wound allocation (i.e. whip coils and at least 1 particle caster). I also prefer to maximize my wraith units (at least 5, preferably 6) because I know they will take a pounding each and every game.
But let me tell you one of the secrets about wraiths that many people really aren't aware of. They're good in combat but they aren't ultra-killy. That is actually a blessing oftentimes, as you don't want to overkill your target just to get shot up next turn. Yes, sometimes it's good to not kill things like bloodcrushers and paladins do. However, it is also because of this that you have to watch out for units with 2+ armor and in particular, power fist/thunder hammer terminators. Wraiths tend to have trouble against those type of units.
pretre wrote:Don't let the Doom Scythes get you too down. It happens!
Nah, they don't get me down. To me, every unit is a sacrificial unit that needs to die "for the cause". Only my warriors in an objectives game is ever necessary to survive. I will gladly sacrifice any other unit in my army....in all my armies....to achieve my objectives.
Then again, my lists usually have a lot of redundancy (not necessarily the exact same units, but usually a very comparable threat) so that I can survive these type of hits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote:Wow, this is turning around quickly. The resilience of wraiths in the assault, and that massive farm of scarabs that went unchecked, is gonna cause some problems. Hopefully your babysitting warriors can keep him away from your objectives.
Yeah, wraiths and my scarab-farm (with spyders) are winning this game for me.
skoffs wrote:Man, what a turn around!
GO TEAM CANOPTEK!
It's be awesome to see the unit of Warriors come around the side of that building and open up on the vehicles harassing the Command Barge.
We shall see.
*waits patiently for turn 4*
This game was very surprising. I wasn't sure my crons could pull it off after the Turn 1 fiasco.
Amerikon wrote:@jy2 - Not that I want you to give up all of your secrets, but any chance we could get an anti-Wraith tactica? Those things scare the bejeezus out of me!
Not a prob. I'll do it here in this thread after I finish my batrep.
That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.
BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.
PS - I should finish the report tonight, but for now, I'm off to go play Apoc.
jy2 wrote:That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.
BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.
PS - I should finish the report tonight, but for now, I'm off to go play Apoc.
jy2 wrote:That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.
BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.
PS - I should finish the report tonight, but for now, I'm off to go play Apoc.
Really great rep! Nice table, armies, narrating. Those wraiths look really awesome! I also like the table shots at the begging of some of the turns to show the whole setting.
One thing I was wondering though is if you take pics of each army before the match? Some of those models look really cool
jy2 wrote:That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.
BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.
jy2 wrote:That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.
BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.
You are all wrong. It is the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghost busters. He isnt on the forums anymore because those mean ghost busters cooked him.
R.I.P. Stay Puft Marshmallow Man
As for the report. Nice report and good win for the necron's. I ran wraiths this last weekend and couldnt make those 3+ saves to save my life. Good thing I dont play marines much or MEQ.
jy2 I respect your dedication to tourney play/mathhammer even if I can't understand the appeal of it personally, but man for someone that spends as much time as you do pondering lists and posting reps it is a shame a little more thought/creativity isnt put into the table/terrain setups.
Good rep Jy2 but I gotta echo CTG, more central + LOS blocking terrain on the table. I know its cliched and we all know it in a way but it can and ineveitably will dictate games, especially X army Vs Y.
Great pics + analysis btw as always.
Just imho a sub par terrain setup?
Hoping we're being cnstructive here.
darkcloud92 wrote:Really great rep! Nice table, armies, narrating. Those wraiths look really awesome! I also like the table shots at the begging of some of the turns to show the whole setting.
One thing I was wondering though is if you take pics of each army before the match? Some of those models look really cool
Sometimes I take pictures of the armies beforehand, especially if there is time. But sometimes, I don't really get the chance too, again mainly due to time. I didn't do it this time, but you can see pictures of my necrons in my other necron reports. I have more pictures of my converted wraiths in this report http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/421484.page
I must admit, I haven't been working much on my necrons recently, but I'm going to start working on them again. My only predicament right now is do I want to convert another 6 wraiths or do I want to use the new models that are coming out tomorrow? I actually like the new GW wraiths a lot, but it's going to be tough to let go of my existing wraiths. Decisions, decisions....
Tomb King wrote:As for the report. Nice report and good win for the necron's. I ran wraiths this last weekend and couldnt make those 3+ saves to save my life. Good thing I dont play marines much or MEQ.
Yeah, that does happen from time to time. That's why it's important that you take full advantage of wound allocation for them. It's also why I prefer to take 5-6 man units because I know more experienced players will be gunning for them.
adam304 wrote:Really enjoyed this! Currently building my necrons up and this has shown how good wraiths can be!
Also I like the idea of vendettas to proxy for doom scythes, i have two so will be including those
Wraiths and scarabs are arguably 2 of the most efficient units in the codex. They are both cost-effective and reliable in performance. Then you've got command barges with scythe-lords and annihilation barges who are also very good in the codex. You can't really lose if you build a necron army with those as the foundation.
The reason to use vendettas is because the night/doom scythes are going to be about the same size and on the same type of base. One of these days, I will get to converting my scythes....or more realistically, I'll probably borrow the scythes that Janthkin already converted (at least until the official models come out).
Sasori wrote:Looking forward to this.
Who are you playing, by the way?
Red Corsair wrote:Was this a self played game? Sorry if it was already stated im off to work and couldn't finish reading the feedback.
This was a test game which I played against myself.
The reasons for this are:
- It's a test game.
- I have experience both as a necron and space wolf player. I also know and understand how MSU armies operate. I myself would represent an experienced and competitive opponent.
- Though some may argue that there are no surprises when playing against yourself, think of it as 2 experienced generals who are knowledgeable about their opponents' armies. They know each other's "tricks". That is actually very common in high-level competitive play. Most of the good generals are quite knowledgeable about other codices. They know the general tactics that certain types of army builds generally use. As a general, if you do your homework and study the other armies, usually there won't be much that will surprise you. Of course, this doesn't apply to all generals, but many of them do study their opponent's army codices.
This was an alright game. The wolf list was interesting, but I don't understand the need to bleed kill points. 3 wolf guard in a rhino....seriously? Hey opponent, I just gave you 6 of the softest kill points you will ever not have to try to earn lol. The terrain was kind of boring but I actually had less issue with this then others. My biggest question and concern is whether or not this was a self played game. It appears to be, which for me doesn't take away from the entertainment but definitely undermines the usefulness of the data.
Too bad the scythes died, that crap load of light vehicles was begging for a lesson I love picturing those death rays in action. Oh well, maybe next time.
EDIT man jy2, you are a sneaky ninja
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote:
The reasons for this are:
- It's a test game.
- I have experience both as a necron and space wolf player. I also know and understand how MSU armies operate. I myself would represent an experienced and competitive opponent.
- Though some may argue that there are no surprises when playing against yourself, think of it as 2 experienced generals who are knowledgeable about their opponents' armies. They know each other's "tricks". That is actually very common in high-level competitive play. Most of the good generals are quite knowledgeable about other codices. They know the general tactics that certain types of army builds generally use. As a general, if you do your homework and study the other armies, usually there won't be much that will surprise you. Of course, this doesn't apply to all generals, but many of them do study their opponent's army codices.
- No one else in my area plays such an army.
I understand the last remark but I personally disagree that the tricks would not exist in competition. Competition aside, players have strategies in their heads and snap decisions. This is why we play, you capitalize on their mistakes. Knowing what exactly both sides WILL do rathr then might definitely does impact the game. It is not possible to play an unbiased game against yourself. Again I really don't think it's that big of a deal but you should note it as a disclaimer because it isn't fair to the person whos list your trying to refute not to. Again I think you made fair decisions as best as any one can while playing themselves but we are all flawed being humans and not necrons or marines
I agree with your assessment that wraiths are good, and necrons can be CC oriented. Whoever was telling you they were crap is full of crap themselves. I mean if that was their idea of a competitive marine list they don't understand the game. Most events use KP, that list was bleeding unnecessary KP's hard. Was the list old? Like pre Necron old?
I like your list a lot, can't wait for that Necron flyer kit. I still think you can lose one solar pulse, but maybe you are keeping it now for last turn in objective scenarios?
- Though some may argue that there are no surprises when playing against yourself, think of it as 2 experienced generals who are knowledgeable about their opponents' armies. They know each other's "tricks". That is actually very common in high-level competitive play. Most of the good generals are quite knowledgeable about other codices. They know the general tactics that certain types of army builds generally use. As a general, if you do your homework and study the other armies, usually there won't be much that will surprise you. Of course, this doesn't apply to all generals, but many of them do study their opponent's army codices.
I actually like army fluff so I was already going to buy all the different army books and since I was buying the army books I came up with the idea of trying just about every army out for myself. I have played/owned every army except orks so I could find their strengths and their weaknesses and what a player playing that army wants to happen vs not want to happen. I didn't buy orks because imho they dont require tactics just move models and roll.
Basic gist here is I concur with the above statement as it is how I have gotten good at beating those tough armies out there... practice and knowing your enemy. Knowing is half the battle.
MSU weakness is Annihilation. Normally they overcome it with superior firepower, but your Necrons were too resilient.
The way I see it, SW player realized it was inevitable that they would lose out in Annihlation mission. Rather than weakening army's overall combat effectiveness by withholding small unit, SW player cut his loses and committed everything in hopes of either wiping out Necrons or obliterating enough units to achieve dominance over objectives. None of them played out because jy2's Necrons are highly resilient.
CT GAMER wrote:jy2 I respect your dedication to tourney play/mathhammer even if I can't understand the appeal of it personally, but man for someone that spends as much time as you do pondering lists and posting reps it is a shame a little more thought/creativity isnt put into the table/terrain setups.
That table is uber-boring...
Ratius wrote:Good rep Jy2 but I gotta echo CTG, more central + LOS blocking terrain on the table. I know its cliched and we all know it in a way but it can and ineveitably will dictate games, especially X army Vs Y.
Great pics + analysis btw as always.
Just imho a sub par terrain setup?
Hoping we're being cnstructive here.
I'd like to apologize to those who think the terrain is somewhat bland. You are right. My home terrain isn't exactly the most exciting. But let me explain why it is the way it is.
First of all, I'm not a great modeler. I'm more of a gamer first and foremost. I don't create my own terrain. I mainly buy them and use what I think is functional.
Secondly, I've literally got about 40k of 40k stuff. I've got 8 armies and models from other armies that I don't even really play. Many of these models need work, especially my necrons whom I am playing the most currently. I put more priority on my army models than I do on my terrain....and I still don't spend enough time on them. You will mainly find nice terrain in my reports when I go to my LGS for games. Otherwise, I freely admit that I don't really put in the time to work on my terrain at home. It is neither my strength nor my priority. Thus, while my games may not necessarily be the most aesthetically pleasing, what I do strive to work on is to provide an enjoyable battle and hopefully some insight into the tactics and strategies of the more competitive gamer.
Red Corsair wrote:This was an alright game. The wolf list was interesting, but I don't understand the need to bleed kill points. 3 wolf guard in a rhino....seriously? Hey opponent, I just gave you 6 of the softest kill points you will ever not have to try to earn lol. The terrain was kind of boring but I actually had less issue with this then others. My biggest question and concern is whether or not this was a self played game. It appears to be, which for me doesn't take away from the entertainment but definitely undermines the usefulness of the data.
Too bad the scythes died, that crap load of light vehicles was begging for a lesson I love picturing those death rays in action. Oh well, maybe next time.
That's just the nature of MSU armies. They bleed kill points, but it is a sacrifice they are willing to take in order to win the game. Most MSU armies can overcome their greater number of KP's in Annihilation missions simply by trying to table their opponent or at the very least, neuter their ability to create offense to the point that even a rhino or MSU unit takes some effort to kill.
The 3 wolf guard unit to some may seem like 2 freebie KP's, but they are designed that way with a purpose. Yes, their purpose is to quickly destroy a tank and then die easily. Take, for example, the 3 WG unit goes up against a 10-man tact squad. Tacticals destroy their rhino. WG then retaliates and destroy the tactical rhino. Tact squad then shoots or assaults the WG unit and easily kill them. Now they are left in the open so that the SW army can focus their formidable firepower to wipe out that tact squad. Now you've just traded a 64pt WG unit for a 170+ pt tactical unit. While they've killed the same number of Kill Points, marines have only killed off maybe 5% of the SW army while SW have killed about 10% of the SM army. This is why MSU armies are able to still win in Annihilation despite their extremely high number of KP's.
In the future I may swap out my doom scythes for annihilation barges and other stuff just to see how differently my MTO crons will play then.
Red Corsair wrote:
I understand the last remark but I personally disagree that the tricks would not exist in competition. Competition aside, players have strategies in their heads and snap decisions. This is why we play, you capitalize on their mistakes. Knowing what exactly both sides WILL do rathr then might definitely does impact the game. It is not possible to play an unbiased game against yourself. Again I really don't think it's that big of a deal but you should note it as a disclaimer because it isn't fair to the person whos list your trying to refute not to. Again I think you made fair decisions as best as any one can while playing themselves but we are all flawed being humans and not necrons or marines
Very true. My thinking was just a generalization of how some of the good generals are. They are usually prepared for most threats through studying other armies and from their own personal experiences as well. Your view is equally valid as well. There are probably just as many generals who really aren't all that familiar with their opponent's armies as well.
But there is another reason why I decided to play the game against myself as well. If I had gotten someone else to play it....someone not as knowledgeable or experienced as me to play it....then the proponents of MSU can say "well, the credibility of the game is undermined because the SW player played like an idiot and got his a$$ whooped because he really didn't know how to play the army." So it really is a double-edged sword. You play it yourself and people can claim you already knew what the other side was going to do. You get someone else to play it and people can claim that you didn't get someone qualified enough to play the army. In this case, I felt that it was more important to represent someone who really understood how MSU worked and who knew what he was doing.
Red Corsair wrote:
I agree with your assessment that wraiths are good, and necrons can be CC oriented. Whoever was telling you they were crap is full of crap themselves. I mean if that was their idea of a competitive marine list they don't understand the game. Most events use KP, that list was bleeding unnecessary KP's hard. Was the list old? Like pre Necron old?
I like your list a lot, can't wait for that Necron flyer kit. I still think you can lose one solar pulse, but maybe you are keeping it now for last turn in objective scenarios?
People just have different philosophies on how to play the game. I don't really want to get into these philosophies too much because he won't be able to speak here on his own behalf. Suffice it to say that he believes the most competitive armies in 40K are shooty MSU and that assault crons are just not a viable build. Me? I think he's been drinking too much of his own Kool-aid, but that's all I'm really going to say about that.
Yeah, definitely going to get some of those scythes when they come out. I'm still on the fence about the 2nd Solar Pulse. I may just drop it permanently in my future MTO builds.
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skoffs wrote:Hey jy2, you doing a post game analysis for this batrep, too?
(those are my favorite parts)
Most definitely yes...but it'll have to be tomorrow. I may even work on my mini-wraith tactica then as well.
Tomb King wrote:
I actually like army fluff so I was already going to buy all the different army books and since I was buying the army books I came up with the idea of trying just about every army out for myself. I have played/owned every army except orks so I could find their strengths and their weaknesses and what a player playing that army wants to happen vs not want to happen. I didn't buy orks because imho they dont require tactics just move models and roll.
Basic gist here is I concur with the above statement as it is how I have gotten good at beating those tough armies out there... practice and knowing your enemy. Knowing is half the battle.
I really feel that most of the great generals - the players who consistently do well and place at tournaments - have a better than average knowledge of their opponent's armies. That is because many of these great players are "students of the game". They study other armies, they play other armies as well as their normal tournament armies and mostly, they've played against a lot of these other armies. Yes, these players can get "tricked" or even outplayed by others (like, for instance, the first time an IG player plays against Immotekh Tremorcron Scarab-farm necrons), but that usually isn't very often and they are usually not fooled more than once.
SabrX wrote:Congrats jy2.
MSU weakness is Annihilation. Normally they overcome it with superior firepower, but your Necrons were too resilient.
The way I see it, SW player realized it was inevitable that they would lose out in Annihlation mission. Rather than weakening army's overall combat effectiveness by withholding small unit, SW player cut his loses and committed everything in hopes of either wiping out Necrons or obliterating enough units to achieve dominance over objectives. None of them played out because jy2's Necrons are highly resilient.
You hit the nail right on the head. It's almost a lost cause to play KP-denial with MSU armies. Just go out there and do what they do best....just shoot the living hell out of the opponent.
Necrons: I'm pretty sure that assault necrons can compete, but honestly, I had no idea how this game was going to end. It started off with Space Wolves rolling well and the crons rolling poorly. It then ended with Necrons rolling well and wolves rolling more like average. Despite losing a huge portion of my offense initially, necrons do have the resiliency to stick it out if you have the patience (and it did help that wraiths were rolling well with their saves when it counted).
My strategy, as usual with my MTO necrons, was to bumrush the SW army and try to lock them inside their own deployment zone. And for the most part, it worked. He was forced to disembark from his vehicles to deal with my wraiths. Once he assaulted them, he was "stuck" with his scoring units locked in combat. This made it hard for him to even go after the objectives part of the missions. That had been my plan all along - to kill off his troops or to incapacitate them (i.e. by locking them up in combat so that they can't go for objectives). Unfortunately for the wolves, they had no choice but to try to wipe out my wraiths. That is just how they operate. Focus-fire on the biggest threats until you wipe them out. Fortunately for my crons, they were not able to do that.
This game, I have to give a lot of the credit to my "secondary offense" - the spyders and scarabs. They were highly effective this game and their contributions were arguably just as great as the wraiths. They also helped to lock down the opponent's army and to secure the entire right flank, killing off 2 units of long fangs, the Rune Priest, several infantry squads and numerous vehicles. They just reaffirm to me how important and efficient a (mini) scarab farm could be and is in a necron army. They were just absolutely brilliant in this game. I feel that you cannot go wrong by adding them into almost any necron list.
Lance-tek shooting also contributed to this game, blowing up 2 land speeders and incapacitating several rhinos. They were hot initially but cooled down towards the end. Still, my decision to add more lance-teks to my army proved to be a wise one.
Finally, I would say that the wraiths were the stars in this game. Not necessarily by how much they killed, but also by how much they were able to take for the army. They absorbed almost any entire MSU army's shooting and still endured to be be a credible threat! They bought some time for my secondary wave of scarabs and spyders to come in and help clean up. They also did their share of damage to the SW transports and troops. I believe that had they fallen on Turn 2, my necrons would have also fallen.
In short, I'm not really surprised by the performance of my MTO necrons. What did surprise me, however, is their comeback after the disastrous Turn 1. Honestly, I had doubts after the first turn that necrons could take this game with what was essentially a 1570pt army against a 2K one. But they responded and did me proud.
Space Wolves: I think MSU is definitely a viable build. If you can stomach its somewhat bland repetitiveness and inherent weakness in Annihilation, you'll find that a MSU build is actually a pretty effective and competitive army. Is it for everyone? Definitely not. Most people will find it "boring" and perhaps even "inflexible" due to lack of assault elements and/or variety. However, the underlying principles and strategy of an MSU army is actually very sound - to overwhelm your opponent with numbers. I myself incorporate a lot of the principles of MSU into many of my armies.
This SW build plays much differently than that of, say, MSU missile-spam Space Wolves. It emphasizes more on mobilizing your forces instead of just sitting and shooting as is normal with razor-spam/long fang-spam SW. While they don't have quite the alpha strike capabilities of missile-wolves, this type of army is more focused on getting into positions to both hurt the enemy as well as getting into advantageous positions. In a nutshell, it plays more like a Sisters of Battle army.
In this game, SW played it like they should have. They went after the fast and dangerous targets first - the doom scythes and command barges - and downed them rather successfully. Then they advanced their rhino as they should and blocked off my wraiths. But not only did they block them off, they offered up the rhinos as "bait" to lure my wraiths towards their counter-attack. My wraiths had no choice but to assault them, thus taking the "bait". Finally, SW prepared for the counter-attack and focused their entire army on my wraiths. I was just fortunate to survive, but had I rolled more average, my wraiths would probably not have survived his shooting and then assault thereafter. So, despite giving up a huge KP disadvantage, if the SW could have finished off my wraiths, then they could have dominated this game. That's just how MSU armies operate, and in the eyes of a knowledgeable general, there really isn't any surprise in this game. Both armies just did what they normally would have done in any game.
In closing, I didn't do this battle to show whether MSU armies are good or not. In my mind, I know they are good (though somewhat "boring" at times). Rather, what I had hoped to show was that non-shooty necrons, or assault crons to some, can be a viable, competitive build. They are not that common now as many are still experimenting with the new crons, but give them some time (say, 6 months from now) and you will start seeing more hybrid and assault necron armies start to place more often in competitive play. They definitely have the tools to do so.
*thumbs up*
As it's been said a hundred times before, great stuff, man. As soon as those models for the Doom Croissant come out next month, I think I'm going to try taking a stab at this list for a tournament.
I honestly think you would be seeing more Crons at tournies by now if it weren't for the popularity of Grey Knights, it's a shame that they are showing up in such droves. Maybe the release of wave two is going to change that. Leave it to GW to release a book with out the best units in it LOL!
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skoffs wrote:
now, about that Wraith Tactica...
He kind of showed you how to beat the this game. Like he said, he rolled above average. Volume fire is how you take those fellas down, once their numbers have dropped they are much less potent on the charge. If they are hot with their saves there is not much you can do other then burn the other guys dice lol.
What is your preferred SW build? I seem to remember you playing MSU Space Wolves before you started playing GK. Only differences I can remember are 2+ Rune Priests and Typhoons. If you started playing them again what kind of additions/subtractions would you make to account for the new codexes. Thanks for the report. I was waiting for this one... I'd like to see your MTO list go up against Reece's Bjorn Wolves too. I think you would struggle more against the increased missile fire. They really are the bane of your Wraiths.
skoffs wrote:*thumbs up*
As it's been said a hundred times before, great stuff, man. As soon as those models for the Doom Croissant come out next month, I think I'm going to try taking a stab at this list for a tournament.
...
now, about that Wraith Tactica...
It will take a little time. I want to write a good tactica about wraiths and it's going to take some time. I may even publish it on an entirely different thread (in the tactica forum) and if I do, I will link this report to it.
Or I may just leave the tactica here. Haven't decided yet....
Red Corsair wrote:^Doom croissant lol, very tastey!
Great analysis as always J!
I honestly think you would be seeing more Crons at tournies by now if it weren't for the popularity of Grey Knights, it's a shame that they are showing up in such droves. Maybe the release of wave two is going to change that. Leave it to GW to release a book with out the best units in it LOL!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote:
now, about that Wraith Tactica...
He kind of showed you how to beat the this game. Like he said, he rolled above average. Volume fire is how you take those fellas down, once their numbers have dropped they are much less potent on the charge. If they are hot with their saves there is not much you can do other then burn the other guys dice lol.
I think after Adepticon, a lot of the good players are going to feel somewhat guilty for playing them and will start running other armies in tournament play (except for the good players who have always been running GK's ever since they were daemonhunters ).
You'll probably see a little less GK players in future tournaments, at least from the really good players. That's my hunch.
I see necrons as a viable alternative for some of these players to turn to. They are new, they are fun and they are quite good. And now that ultra-cool (model-wise) units like the spyders and wraiths are out, I think you're going to see many people start running some form of wraithwing due to the exposure they are getting from the net (of which I am partially to blame ).
As for the tactica, you are right. The best way to take down wraiths is with volume-of-fire. And terminator-builds and grey knights are 2 of the best armies to take on wraiths due to their volume-of-insta-killing-fire. But all that in good time....I'm going to take my time with this tactica to make sure that it is top-notch material.
Living Still wrote:What is your preferred SW build? I seem to remember you playing MSU Space Wolves before you started playing GK. Only differences I can remember are 2+ Rune Priests and Typhoons. If you started playing them again what kind of additions/subtractions would you make to account for the new codexes. Thanks for the report. I was waiting for this one... I'd like to see your MTO list go up against Reece's Bjorn Wolves too. I think you would struggle more against the increased missile fire. They really are the bane of your Wraiths.
Whoa, it's cool to know that some people have been following my reports since my Space Wolves days. I don't actually run a MSUSW build, though I do run a very shooty SW build. I normally ran something like this back then:
Rune Priest Blackheart - Chooser, Meltabombs, Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning - 115
Rune Priest Loki - Chooser, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane - 110
Rune Priest Goldmoon - Jaws, Either Tempest's Wrath, Stormcaller or Hurricane - 100
Rifleman Dread - 125
Rifleman Dread - 125
3x Wolf Guard - 3x Combi-meltas, 3x Power Fist - 129
8x Grey Hunters - Melta, Mark of the Wulfen, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino - 200
8x Grey Hunters - Melta, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino - 185
8x Grey Hunters - Melta, Power Weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino - 185
5x Grey Hunters - Flamer, Lazorback - 150
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
Vindicator - 115
Total - 1999
Missile wolves definitely are tough to play against with my crons. I actually did play against Reece's Bjorn Wolves (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424563.page), though at that time I didn't run my MTO crons. Instead, I ran a shooty pure wraithwing list instead (with 18 wraiths, lance-teks and annihilation barges).
I may play Reece again in the near future. There's some new necron models I'm planning to get and I'd rather give them the business, so there's a good chance I'll play him when I go to his store. Perhaps my crons versus his Top-8 Adepticon footdar army? That'll probably be a good fight.
Fantastic battle report.
Was a bitmbummed out that it was against yourself... Imo this decreases the value of tactical choices from the getgo.
But themreportnas always was done very well.
One thing, i thought spyders could only spawn scarabs into units that are unengaged.
On another note, i agree whole heartedly that combaty crons can do very well, its how one of my good friends and excellent generals plays.
Iago wrote:Fantastic battle report.
Was a bitmbummed out that it was against yourself... Imo this decreases the value of tactical choices from the getgo.
But themreportnas always was done very well.
One thing, i thought spyders could only spawn scarabs into units that are unengaged.
On another note, i agree whole heartedly that combaty crons can do very well, its how one of my good friends and excellent generals plays.
You can increase the number of any Scarb unit within 6". The Codex makes no distinction between engaged or unengaged.
and the faq qualifies that engaged scarabs can be reinforced
Q: Can Canoptek Spyders add models to a unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is locked in combat? (p46)
A: Yes.
Also, great report jy2, and I can't wait for you to get that tactica up, I'm trying multiple things against my brother's wraiths, but focussing most of my army's fire at them and hoping they die isn't having the best outcome, well, not a consistent outcome anyway.
jy2 wrote:That SW list plays very much like a Sisters of Battle list, only without the assault-oriented battle conclaves. It's definitely a very different list from your typical missile-spam SW, but I feel that it has its own strengths as well.
BTW, this list was created by He-who-must-not-be-named-here-on-Dakka-because-he-is-no-longer-here-on-Dakka.
PS - I should finish the report tonight, but for now, I'm off to go play Apoc.
Remember to take pictures!
Your wish is my command.
My Chaos army:
The Blood Angel - over 130 infantry models!
Unfortunately, I am not going to do a battle report on this game because it didn't even last 3 turns. I hit his lines Turn 3 with my entire army and it was game over by then.
Iago wrote:Fantastic battle report.
Was a bitmbummed out that it was against yourself... Imo this decreases the value of tactical choices from the getgo.
But themreportnas always was done very well.
One thing, i thought spyders could only spawn scarabs into units that are unengaged.
On another note, i agree whole heartedly that combaty crons can do very well, its how one of my good friends and excellent generals plays.
In this case, I felt it more important to represent an experienced MSU Space Wolf general than to get someone to play it who wasn't really qualified. Honestly, I'd rather hear people say that I played against myself than to say I was clubbing a baby seal in what was supposed to represent a competitive game.
There are 2 things in the necron codex (actually, there may probably more) that goes against normal convention. One is that spyders can spawn scarabs into combat if the scarabs were already locked in combat. The second is that the command barge can even sweep attack units locked in combat.
motyak wrote:and the faq qualifies that engaged scarabs can be reinforced
Q: Can Canoptek Spyders add models to a unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is locked in combat? (p46)
A: Yes.
Also, great report jy2, and I can't wait for you to get that tactica up, I'm trying multiple things against my brother's wraiths, but focussing most of my army's fire at them and hoping they die isn't having the best outcome, well, not a consistent outcome anyway.
Thanks. My tactica will take a little longer to come out. First, I want to try out a test game between a wraithwing build and what may be one of their tougher foes....infantry grey knights with paladins!
Red Corsair wrote:He kind of showed you how to beat the this game. Like he said, he rolled above average. Volume fire is how you take those fellas down, once their numbers have dropped they are much less potent on the charge. If they are hot with their saves there is not much you can do other then burn the other guys dice lol.
As for the tactica, you are right. The best way to take down wraiths is with volume-of-fire. And terminator-builds and grey knights are 2 of the best armies to take on wraiths due to their volume-of-insta-killing-fire.
My concern is that the Wraiths beat you either way. If you sink fire into them, there are two outcomes:
1) They die, but you've invested the bulk of your army against a single threat and you get overwhelmed by all the bits you had to ignore to fight the Wraiths.
2) They don't die and now you've wasted a turn.
So you can choose between bad and worse. On top of that, the actual volume of fire that you'd need to pour into them is pretty staggering. It's expected that you'd need 9 S4/BS4 shots and 6.75 S5/BS4 shots per wound.
As a Sisters of Battle player I'm usually not too concerned about small units of tough multi-wound models, but the 3++ on Wraiths is a mother. My go-to anti-heavy unit of Dominions with 4 meltaguns, a combi-Plasma, and 5 bolters (all twin-linked) only expects to yield 2 regular wounds and one instant-death. So with wound allocation, I've taken out a single Wraith.
You are absolutely correct. Wraiths are dangerous, but they are not the only ones. That is why I feel that my MTO necrons are so strong. All the threats are equally dangerous. So while the opponent is spending his resources trying to take out the wraiths, the rest of my army will still be able to do a lot of damage. And if you spend the resources to deal with my other threats, wraiths can wreak pure havoc as demonstrated in this game. One thing people often under-estimate is that it is not just the unit they have to be concerned about, in a well-designed necron list, it is the entire army that they have to worry about.
BTW, before I do the tactica, there's a couple of things I want to test out. That's right, one more home-game battle report before the tactica. This time, it'll be a pure wraithwing build with some tremorcrons against grey knights.
The lists:
2K Necrons Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
2x Tremor-teks, 1x Lance-tek w/Pulse
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
2x Psyfleman Dreads
Basically, this will be a test game for my upcoming Wraith Tactica. It basically pits my wraithwing against 3 of their greatest weaknesses - volume-of-fire, GK Nemesis Force weapons (and psyflemans) and 2+ paladins.
jy2 wrote:You are absolutely correct. Wraiths are dangerous, but they are not the only ones. That is why I feel that my MTO necrons are so strong. All the threats are equally dangerous. So while the opponent is spending his resources trying to take out the wraiths, the rest of my army will still be able to do a lot of damage. And if you spend the resources to deal with my other threats, wraiths can wreak pure havoc as demonstrated in this game. One thing people often under-estimate is that it is not just the unit they have to be concerned about, in a well-designed necron list, it is the entire army that they have to worry about.
BTW, before I do the tactica, there's a couple of things I want to test out. That's right, one more home-game battle report before the tactica. This time, it'll be a pure wraithwing build with some tremorcrons against grey knights.
The lists:
2K Necrons Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
Overlord - All the trimmings, Command Barge
2x Tremor-teks, 1x Lance-tek w/Pulse
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannon, Psybolt, Hammer, Warding Stave
2x Psyfleman Dreads
Basically, this will be a test game for my upcoming Wraith Tactica. It basically pits my wraithwing against 3 of their greatest weaknesses - volume-of-fire, GK Nemesis Force weapons (and psyflemans) and 2+ paladins.
Why gaze of death?? Its 50pts can only be used in combat and only ever regenerates one wound per use.
Not wishing to steal your thunder or anything jy2 but I have been working on a counter Wraith tactica for the last couple of days. Just put it up now. Basic stuff but hopefully useful to players of all ranges.
Tomb King wrote:
Why gaze of death?? Its 50pts can only be used in combat and only ever regenerates one wound per use.
Purely for experimental purposes. In my test games, sometimes I run things I normally don't run at all. This is the time for me to try some stuff out. Like using my tremorcrons as opposed to my lance-teks in my pure wraithwing build. Or taking Gaze instead of Lord of Fire that I usually take.
You won't find Gaze in my real TAC necron list. What you'll find is 1 more annihilation barge, 1 more scoring unit and probably a bunch of lance-teks instead.
Lukus83 wrote:Not wishing to steal your thunder or anything jy2 but I have been working on a counter Wraith tactica for the last couple of days. Just put it up now. Basic stuff but hopefully useful to players of all ranges.
No worries. Then I will just contribute to your tactica instead.
Gaze of Death could be obscenely useful against horde armies. S3 can't wound T7, and S4 wounds T7 on sixes. After all blows have been struck, and assuming the C'tan isn't dead, several models having to take S3 hits with no armor saves allowed is not a bad thing.
There's no doubt that Gaze of Death can be good. The million-dollar question is, can the C'tan make it into combat without getting shot to hell to use his 50pt power? That's the gamble you are taking with this power.
Wraiths are good.... My issue is they are basically a very good tarpit that relies heavily on you rolling well for saves. They work awesome against normal troopers, but anything more resiliant with high str weapons (I.e. twc) can work them over. Nightfighting helps, but I just feel they aren't needed... Honestly if you roll any bit bad with them against things like sw longfang spam and they get dusted quickly.
I enjoy lurking on their site. It's a bit caustic, but as long as it's not directed towards me personally, neh. You have a bit more patience than I do though, I'd be like, "that's it! where do you live!"
When they're saying Wraiths aren't the best choice in their slot, they're referring to Scarabs, I assume? I can't believe they mean Tomb Blades, but that's the only unit there matching their MSU/mech criteria.
It is hard to kill moving transports with melee dudes. And I don't think lanceteks fit the bill either. CCB's, yeah baby, but limited slots. AB's, light armor only. I noticed last time I browsed their lists that they really like Night Scythes.
Seems to me like a board full of arse's. They quickly shift to petty insults and have ego's that are suffocating me by just reading the text they call responses. Really makes me wanna take Crons to the my next GT and lay waste literally slaughter everything especially space wolves. My advice dont waste anymore time on them and just leave them to their narrow sided opinions.
-666- wrote:I have had good success with a C'tan in a couple of games. A couple turns of Night Fight really helps a lot.
Yeah, that helps. So will having more immediate threats for the opponent to deal with.
pretre wrote:I gave up on surfing there a year or so ago. The noise versus signal just got way too high. Looks like you got a whole pile of the same.
They have a wealth of knowledge and I think the contributions they provide to the gaming community on the whole is positive. However, their rather caustic delivery sometimes as well as their unwillingness to have an open ear tends to be annoying at times.
Zid wrote:Wraiths are good.... My issue is they are basically a very good tarpit that relies heavily on you rolling well for saves. They work awesome against normal troopers, but anything more resiliant with high str weapons (I.e. twc) can work them over. Nightfighting helps, but I just feel they aren't needed... Honestly if you roll any bit bad with them against things like sw longfang spam and they get dusted quickly.
The thing people need to understand about wraiths is that they are NOT an uber assaulty unit. Try using them to overcome enemy assault units through brute force and you will not win out in many cases. They do need the support of the rest of the army against some units. However, the benefits that they contribute to the army are enormous. They help to draw heavy weapon fire that would otherwise wreck. They can clean up most regular infantry units, and they will protect the army from enemy heavy-hitters/uber units. They can actually wreck things if left unchecked. Finally, they help to control the tempo of the game by controlling the Movement phase. Yes, some armies may have the ability to wipe them out, but look at where those armies are position-wise at the end of the game. If you are playing those wraiths correctly, most armies will be out of position relative to objectives compared to the necron forces who will be camped on their objectives.
Yeah, wraiths aren't invincible. They are durable, but they can definitely be killed. The thing is, it's not you versus the wraiths. It's you versus the necron army.
BTW, it's kinda funny. At the other thread, one person actually suggested that wraiths need Eternal Warrior and Reanimation Protocols to be any good. Lol.
@jy2: I agree and see your point of view. Its just many people are of the mindset that wraiths are the necron uber unit,which I feel is far from true. The best way to deal with them is the same way you deal with other units, effectuve management of resources and taking care of things one at a time.
I feel any good list follows a simular mindset to your mto crons; everythings a threat in its own right, you just try and overwhelm your opponent. Barges, wraiths, stalkers, and lords are all great units, but everything can be beaten by any other army, which many peeps don't seem to realize.
There is an advantage to that sort of site. It has one sort of noise, but it weeds out another sort of noise. (Also when you go on a rant you can fully type out "wtf", which is viscerally satisfying.) What I need, though, is some validation of their assertions. I've *seen* things work that they're dismissive of. (Other things than Wraiths, ie, general meta approach elements.) I wonder if some of their group aren't tournament regulars I could meet and chat with? (Going to the San Antonio Alamo GT in a couple weeks.)
I hope you will post your Wraith tactica in the Tactics forum - I think you'll reach more people there and you can post a link here.
I don't know why you're wasting your time over at the blue koolaid site. It's not like they will change their mind any time soon and if they do then it will be presented as their idea(s). I think you'll be better served using time and energy more fruitfully Iike places here. : )
Randall Turner wrote:I enjoy lurking on their site. It's a bit caustic, but as long as it's not directed towards me personally, neh. You have a bit more patience than I do though, I'd be like, "that's it! where do you live!"
When they're saying Wraiths aren't the best choice in their slot, they're referring to Scarabs, I assume? I can't believe they mean Tomb Blades, but that's the only unit there matching their MSU/mech criteria.
It is hard to kill moving transports with melee dudes. And I don't think lanceteks fit the bill either. CCB's, yeah baby, but limited slots. AB's, light armor only. I noticed last time I browsed their lists that they really like Night Scythes.
They (the people who frequent the site and their philosophy) do have some good info and insight, but they also tend to get nasty against people with a different viewpoint from them. To many of the people there, their "way" is absolutely the "right way". It's either their "way" or the highway. That's what really irks me to no end. "Have you even played against a wraithwing build before?" "No, don't need to, but the fact that they are an assault unit in a shooting game must mean that they suck."
I believe they are referring to scarabs as the "best" choice, but really, they tend to emphasize mech and shooting. Thus, the ideal MSU necron list would be a bunch of troops in Night Scythes. Command barges, annihilation barges and lance-teks are the only other "good" options. From their perspective, scarabs are a viable (if not ideal option) though wraiths suck.
Seems to me like a board full of arse's. They quickly shift to petty insults and have ego's that are suffocating me by just reading the text they call responses. Really makes me wanna take Crons to the my next GT and lay waste literally slaughter everything especially space wolves. My advice dont waste anymore time on them and just leave them to their narrow sided opinions.
Insults and ego's I really don't care about because I can match them in that department. I can give as good as I can take.
What pisses me off is that they have the gall to call me close-minded just because I think the game of 40k can be won by more than just a pure shooty army!?! You want to shut me up? Show me that I'm wrong. Show me even 1 MSU army that has won a GT or similar event. And for every such army you show me, I will show you an army such as Eric's Wraithwing (won SVDM GT), Norbu's scarab-farm (Indy GT), Alex Fennell's hybrid tremorcrons (Templecon, I believe) and any of DashofPepper's tournament ork battles or Nick's tyranids/daemons who have won many tournaments....all with non-MSU, assault-oriented armies.
Zid wrote:@jy2: I agree and see your point of view. Its just many people are of the mindset that wraiths are the necron uber unit,which I feel is far from true. The best way to deal with them is the same way you deal with other units, effectuve management of resources and taking care of things one at a time.
I feel any good list follows a simular mindset to your mto crons; everythings a threat in its own right, you just try and overwhelm your opponent. Barges, wraiths, stalkers, and lords are all great units, but everything can be beaten by any other army, which many peeps don't seem to realize.
Absolutely true on both observations. Wraiths are durable, but they are not a magic bullet that will automatically win games for you. They are just another scalpel in a toolbox full of sharp tools. And MTO doesn't just apply to my necrons, though they do happen to do it quite well. I think the concept of MTO can be applied to almost any army out there.
Got a variation of the MTO list I'm gonna be testing on Friday:
2x CC Barge Overlords w/ Warscythes and MSS
2x Destruction Teks w/ Pulses (1 from each court)
3x 5 man Warriors Squads
3x 5 Wraiths (3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster)
3x Doom Scythes
And all at 1850! Started out with the idea of getting 2 CC Barges, 3 Doom Scythes and 3 units of Wraiths into the lowest possible point army while retaining at least 3 Troop choices. Definitely viable at 1850, just have to see how it works out.
Randall Turner wrote:There is an advantage to that sort of site. It has one sort of noise, but it weeds out another sort of noise. (Also when you go on a rant you can fully type out "wtf", which is viscerally satisfying.) What I need, though, is some validation of their assertions. I've *seen* things work that they're dismissive of. (Other things than Wraiths, ie, general meta approach elements.) I wonder if some of their group aren't tournament regulars I could meet and chat with? (Going to the San Antonio Alamo GT in a couple weeks.)
Actually, a lot of good gamers frequent Stelek's website. And many of them have their own blogs. Mike Brandt (who runs NovaOpen), Fearspect, Sandwyrm, TKE, Chumbayala (or whatever his handle is)...these are just a few that comes to mind. I believe Fearspect may have gone to Adepticon and Chumbayala is going to NovaOpen. Mike Brandt is really cool and well respected in the 40k community. Most used to post here on dakkadakka but have moved onto their own blogs. And most aren't really that extreme and are quite cool.
-666- wrote:@ jy2
I hope you will post your Wraith tactica in the Tactics forum - I think you'll reach more people there and you can post a link here.
I don't know why you're wasting your time over at the blue koolaid site. It's not like they will change their mind any time soon and if they do then it will be presented as their idea(s). I think you'll be better served using time and energy more fruitfully Iike places here. : )
Keep up the good work.
I'm going to post it on Lukus' thread (link above). But I kinda went off-track today at Stelek's website.
It's just hard to stay silent when someone is attacking your posts/ideas on a site. I'm not looking to change anyone's minds there. I just need to have my say and then they can go on with the rest of their routines. Anyways, it's just a small interruption from my activities, just like my "rants" were a slight interruption in theirs. No biggie, really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Lukus
Hope you're not bringing this list to a casual game, because it can absolutely wreck house. But if you're taking it against Mike's grey knights, cmac's DE or probably even Duidui's BA, then maybe you'll find a little more challenge.
Lol, bringing it out against a local vet and good friend of mine. He likes casual games but I owe him a smackdown since last time we played I told him I was bringing Scythes and he pulled out 9 Hydras!
If he pulls out something really fluffy will end up toning down the list as I get no satisfaction winning those kind of games (well, maybe a little, but only VS him, lol).
Will do. If I get the opportunity I will be taking pics also. Maybe make a batrep out of it. Be aware though it will be ugly. I only have 3 Wraiths so far and my Doom Scythes will be proxied also (Foam crons currently reside in another store).
jy2 wrote:Yeah, wraiths aren't invincible. They are durable, but they can definitely be killed. The thing is, it's not you versus the wraiths. It's you versus the necron army.
BTW, it's kinda funny. At the other thread, one person actually suggested that wraiths need Eternal Warrior and Reanimation Protocols to be any good. Lol.
The thing that really surprised me about that thread was all the people who said that Wraiths were bad b/c you could kill them with bolters. That just doesn't even make sense.
If it takes 18 BS4 bolter shots to put down a Wraith (assuming no wound allocation!) but it takes 16 to drop a Terminator, how can all of those people keep yelling "Bolters therefore Wraiths suck!"? They are more vulnerable to missiles than Terminators but they're also twice as fast and have night-fight on their side.
jy2 wrote:Yeah, wraiths aren't invincible. They are durable, but they can definitely be killed. The thing is, it's not you versus the wraiths. It's you versus the necron army.
BTW, it's kinda funny. At the other thread, one person actually suggested that wraiths need Eternal Warrior and Reanimation Protocols to be any good. Lol.
The thing that really surprised me about that thread was all the people who said that Wraiths were bad b/c you could kill them with bolters. That just doesn't even make sense.
If it takes 18 BS4 bolter shots to put down a Wraith (assuming no wound allocation!) but it takes 16 to drop a Terminator, how can all of those people keep yelling "Bolters therefore Wraiths suck!"? They are more vulnerable to missiles than Terminators but they're also twice as fast and have night-fight on their side.
I suspect a few of them have never played against a wraithwing build before. That "bolter > wraiths" statement appears to be theoryhammering (and not even a good one at that) without practical experience to back it up.
's on the damage charts to only shake each rhino.
The explosions take out 1grey hunter and 1 wolf guard.
They quickly shift to petty insults and have ego's that are suffocating me by just reading the text they call responses. Really makes me wanna take Crons to the my next 
My advice dont waste anymore time on them and just leave them to their narrow sided opinions.