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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Well it seems this will be the way of things from now on regarding White Wolf and the original World of Darkness releases at the very least. So I've put this thread together and will continue to follow news and update as new projects arrive.
They are already talking about Werewolf 20th edition coming to Kickstarter soon, and as of yesterday the second expansion book for V20 has begun its Kickstarter journey. Children of the Revolution. To anyone who has already got the V20 and the Companion, this has to be a must buy as it is going to properly advance the timeline with a more detailed look in the world we are now living in via the information found around the Characters within.
Its also been inspired by and is a evolvement of some of the best VtM books that came out previously over the years, Children of the Inquisition, Kindreds Most wanted and Children of the Night. 
Here it is..
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/children-of-the-revolution-deluxe-for-vampire-20th
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Post by: Platuan4th
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
They are already talking about Werewolf 20th edition coming to Kickstarter soon
I so wish we had the please/prayer emoticon they have on Seibertron. I want this so bad, I'd cancel all of my Transformers pre-orders for what ever months are between when it starts and when it ends so I can afford the best version of the printed book available. Edit: After my group requested Werewolf and we played last night, I want this more, especially since I can't find a hard copy of the core book ANYWHERE now that I want a replacement.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
Is this the White Wolf that did Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling, etc? Why would they need kickstarter...shouldn't they have the capitol to do a new edition of Vampire on their own?
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
CCP ripped the heart out of the company last year when Eve went through their troubles and players threatened to mass quit over the expansion.
Fired half the current White Wolf staff, and left the company on its knees. This is literally the only way anything will be coming out from them in a while from what I can tell.
Real shame, although the writing has been on the wall for a while, the nwod releases and stuff for their other games lines had slowed down to a trickle ages back.
If this keeps them going, and allows W20, M20 and some more classic WoD to come out, I'm all for it.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
I want to support CotR but I'm a werewolf guy so gonna past on this one, I rather suport something I'll get use out of.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Yeah, I think even if this failed to get support, which I doubt, once again don't see it getting the annoited PDF, but it'll certainly reach its goal.
I am pretty confidant that the next Kickstarter that White Wolf announce will be for W20. It has to be, as they need to sort it out so they can hand out copies to folks going to the Grand Masquerade in September.
Of course as they have found Kickstarter and its month long funding cycle, they can afford to set it up a little later than they did with V20 last year.
I have a feeling W20 might be up before this one ends though, or if not, very soon after.
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Post by: Manchu
I sent this to White Wolf today: Dear White Wolf,
First of all, thanks very much for putting together these great
Kickstarter projects. I really enjoyed backing your V20 Companion
project, doing my best to spread the word and having fun watching the
support roll in from around the world. That was the first time I had
used Kickstarter and I thought it was a really cool idea. After all,
why should some middleman stand between me, a potential investor, and
you, a group of creators that I want to see succeed? I started to
support some other projects as well, including a card game called
Tentacle Bento to be made by Soda Pop Miniatures.
The game is about a tentacled space alien disguised as a girl at an
all-girls university capturing other students. Obviously, the game is
a wink at the bizarre hentai sub-genre of tentacle pornography. The
product seemed light hearted and well designed, with awesome art and
fun mechanics. I don't normally go in for manga/anime styled anything
but this game won me over quickly. I was not surprised, therefore,
when Kickstarter listed it on their front page as a "Staff Pick" nor
was I surprised that the project quickly exceeded its funding goal by
double. Sadly, I also was not surprised to see various bloggers rail
against the game as advocacy of violence against women.
What did surprise me, however, was when Kickstarter canceled the
project funding for Tentacle Bento. The moral or ethical implications
of the game are one thing and it's fine to have that discussion. But
I have a problem with this company Kickstarter, which exists only to
connect investors with creators by minimizing third-party control of
funding, stepping in to sever that very connection as a naked
demonstration of third-party control. Kickstarter had apparently not
only allowed Soda Pop to start the project in the first place but even
picked it out as deserving of special consideration for Kickstarter's
other customers. And then, right afterward, they stomped it out.
I wrote to Kickstarter to inquire why this happened. They refused to
comment as a matter of policy. Why the project went in a matter of
days from "Staff Pick" to shut down is something that Soda Pop
Miniatures has not disclosed, either. My own conclusion is that the
allegations of rape advocacy scared off Kickstarter once Kickstarter
itself had touted the project. I'm sure that you guys at White Wolf
have heard of the term "moral panic." As roleplayers, you must be
aware of the smear campaign against Dungeons & Dragons in the 1980s.
I find it repugnant to see ostensible "geek culture" sites like Kotaku
engaging in this same sort of puritanical diatribe thirty years on
(despite Kotaku praising a novelty soda marketed as Tentacle Grape not
long before). In fact, in these thirty years, things have apparently
only gotten worse. Instead of rabid evangelicals totally ignorant of
D&D claiming that D&D is "satanic" and leads kids to suicide and
murder, we have people who call themselves gamers and claiming to be
knowledgeable about games unable to distinguish between a card game
and the systematic objectification and subjugation of women.
I admit that my conclusion that Kickstarter canned Soda Pop's project
based on the moralistic bullying of bloggers is just an inference
given the silence of both parties. It's an inference, however, that I
hope White Wolf will carefully consider. And even if you reject that
inference, please think about the message that Kickstarter is sending:
"to the extent that doing business with you inconveniences us, we
will stop your project -- even at the cost of all the funding you have
built up." This issue must be chilling to White Wolf, a company known
for products that have never shied away from violence and sexuality.
Finally, even if you guys at White Wolf have no concerns about
Kickstarter's unreliability as regards your own business, I want to
ask you to please consider your investors -- i.e., your fans. How can
you ask us to support you using Kickstarter when Kickstarter's
behavior toward a gaming company has been so clearly fickle, tying
right into the long and maddening history of moral panics decrying
comic books, roleplaying games, and video games? As things stand,
this issue is holding me back from pledging investment to Children of
the Revolution. Looking ahead, I can't believe that I might miss out
on the Werewolf: The Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Edition book. Please
please please consider funding the Werewolf book through Indiegogo or
making copies available through other means, as with the Vampire: The
Masquerade 20th Anniversary edition.
I fully acknowledge that it's Kickstarter's right not to do business
with Soda Pop miniatures, for any number of reasons including moral
outrage on the part of their other customers. But it's also my right
not to do business with Kickstarter because they don't actually
provide the free contact between creator and investor that they claim.
Unfortunately, there is no parity between myself and Kickstarter. I
am only an individual customer. Knowing that White Wolf has a special
consideration for its fans, which is the whole spirit of the 20th
Anniversary edition releases, I am appealing to you despite being only
an individual customer.
Thank you in advance for your consideration and I look forward to
hearing back from you,
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Nicely written Manchu, I'll be interested in seeing if they give a detailed response on the matter.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
Aye +1 Manchu, hope you get some communication from White wolf about their plans about using Kickstarter.
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Post by: Manchu
Just FYI, Rich Thomas has already graciously taken the time to respond. I will post our exchange when there has been some more back and forth clarifying our respective positions but I wanted to update you guys to prove that WW really does care about fans and responded very quickly in this case.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Ah good to hear, would like to see what he had to say, so will be watching this space. 
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Post by: Bromsy
Yes, I am definitely interested in their response, since my views on the whole tentacle bento thing closely mirror Manchus - and I reeeaally want W20.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
Bromsy wrote:Yes, I am definitely interested in their response, since my views on the whole tentacle bento thing closely mirror Manchus - and I reeeaally want W20.
Same here, want to see what WW have said.
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Post by: Manchu
Sorry gents, I tried posting it all last evening but my internet went out. I saved the post and my commentary/reaction and will put it up when I get home from work tonight.
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Post by: Pacific
Great latter Manchu, to be honest it could be used for any situation of so called 'moralists' determining what is and what is not suitable for consumption by others. Look forward to reading the reply in any case!
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Post by: Manchu
Well, they've basically had a week to clarify further and have not so here's what I got: Rich Thomas wrote:Thanks for letting us know about this situation. You raise a lot of good points and you're absolutely right that WW needs to be alert for situations where our mature products might get caught in a situation like this. (And in fact, we've fallen into similar situations in the past with distributors refusing to carry some or all of our products due to moral grounds even as late as the publication of Pimp: The Backhanding.) So I personally would be very unhappy if the KS team scrapped a project that was succeeding for those reasons.
I'll send a query to the KS team to see if I can get any clarity on the situation from them. As you also rightly point out, the situation may not be as clear as the one you're afraid occurred, particularly considering that KS has positioned themselves as the interface between creative folks and those who'd like to encourage them and the behavior you infer is certainly not conducive to maintaining that market position.
I would appreciate it if you would reconsider how you're intending to deal with this perceived situation. On the basis of how you've pieced together what has occurred (and you yourself have questioned whether or not you're on target with that, although you certainly could be right) you're going to "hurt" KS financially a wee little bit, but "hurt" WW a lot by not backing any of our projects. All on the basis of an unclear situation. Please understand that I firmly believe in your right to take the actions you believe are the right ones in life, I'm just asking that you look again at this particular situation and your intended course.
Manchu wrote:Dear Rich,
Has Kickstarter gotten back to you about this issue? From a business point of view, here is how I see the case: Kickstarter agreed to do business with Soda Pop and then reneged and also declined to explain to either Soda Pop or its investors why it did so. Absent further explanation by Kickstarter, this is purely an example of bad faith on Kickstarter's part. That bad faith has been directed at me as an investor on this project. By funding only through Kickstarter, you guys are asking me to do business with a company that has treated me badly in order to business with a company that has treated me well (White Wolf). That would be an easy decision to make if Kickstarter would simply clarify that something besides the potential moral panic over Tentacle Bento caused them to renege on their agreement.
But if Kickstarter's behavior is just another example of the long line of caving into prejudice directed at people who enjoy table top games and video games (an inference but a pretty darn reasonable one) then the question is not so simple. And I think that, combined with Kickstarter's demonstrable bad faith in this case, the inference should make White Wolf as nervous as it makes some of White Wolf's fans. Kickstarter has been a great venue for White Wolf so far and I have some rudimentary knowledge of how that successful partnership is relieving some of the pressures White Wolf is experiencing. The question that's coming to a head is are the creators aligned more with their investors or the third-party funding mechanisms. This problematic comparison is what Kickstarter is supposed to be around to address, making the situation all the more shocking and disappointing.
Thanks,
So ... my take is that they find the relationship to be way too beneficial and the concern to be way too inapplicable (to them, right now). I really don't buy the whole "you don't really know it's like that" line of argument. I think the situation is pretty clear. But WW is totally invested into the PDF/PoD business and everything points to MDS being absolutely spot-on about WW seeing their future in Kickstarter. Looking back on last week and seeing how Kickstarter has allowed (maybe incidentally, maybe as a compromise) Soda Pop to continue using Kickstarter infrastructure to communicate with backers (you, folks who backed the project before it was stomped), I'm still pretty ambivalent about the whole thing. TBH, Rich's response was also kind of condescending and left a bad taste in my mouth. Note that Rich brought up Pimp, though, which makes me think he might not be too sympathetic with Soda Pop one way or the other. Still, the WW lines are pretty fething M for Mature. You'd think all that sex'n'violence might make somebody nervous. Deep down, maybe WW is pristine as far as the identity politicians can see, however. One would imagine the idea of using dominate on a blood doll to score a snack might raise some eyebrows in the War For Women crowd but that would be, of course, taking a closer look than they're willing to (at least a few Tentacle Bento haters seemed to think they were protesting a video game). So will I plunk down cash for Children of the Revolution. I think not. I have some time yet to decide whether or not to back W20. Despite Rich's message above, Kickstarter and WW have together made feel pretty inconsequential as a customer/fan/investor and I'm sure the next few WW projects will get along fine without me. Not that I really care if they don't. The lesson for me has been: the companies you like don't really give a gak about you, no matter what they say. So there's really no reason to give a gak about them. They want something I have ($$$) and that's not really much leverage. From now on, I don't care if companies like WW sink or swim. If they have something I want, and that's not really much leverage, either, as it turns out, I might fork over the minimum cash. But the idea of WW using Kickstarter to appeal to those who love their games just kind of repulses me now.
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Post by: RiTides
Manchu wrote:The lesson for me has been: the companies you like don't really give a gak about you, no matter what they say. So there's really no reason to give a gak about them. They want something I have ($$$) and that's not really much leverage. From now on, I don't care if companies like WW sink or swim. If they have something I want, and that's not really much leverage, either, as it turns out, I might fork over the minimum cash. But the idea of WW using Kickstarter to appeal to those who love their games just kind of repulses me now.
I thought his response showed the he Did care about your feedback as a customer... but if they were not to use Kickstarter, they might alienate other customers. They have to find a balance. They're never going to be able to please everyone fully... and in general, I think most people enjoy the Kickstarter format for backing projects, meaning your concern might be in the minority of feedback they've gotten, and thus not something they can act on without alienating other fans (or, more likely, hurting their bottom line by getting less exposure for their products due to not putting them on Kickstarter).
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Post by: Manchu
Well, I actually did not ask that WW not deal with Kickstarter. Only that they give their customers other options. WW is not even using them to fund a project in the sense of getting a product to market. They are using it as a market. The key question isn't capital to develop the project, as with a videogame. The key question is only creating so much product that they can sell. As Soda Pop has shown (as if it needed to be shown after the V20 release) this can be done directly from the WW website. Kickstarter let's them solicit what amounts to donation (I think that word is better than investment, since investors generally have a better idea about what is to be done with their money than Kickstarter backers) over and above the pre-order costs.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I suspect one of their concerns is if they open it up elsewhere as well as Kickstarter, what if combined over two sites they had enough to reach the goal, but as Kickstarter was short overall, it doesn't get funded and White Wolf get nothing from one half of the revenue stream.
How do they judge how much the different avenues are going to get, if they figure Kickstarter too low, and over the two locations the total isn't even up to the $50K minimum they wanted, they are pretty much screwed.
So while I agree what Kickstarter did was pretty scummy, from White Wolfs position they are sorta caught in the middle. The whole point of Kickstarter is, WW can put it on that site and go theres the target, if it makes it, you have the offer, if not better luck next time and walk away with zero concerns.
Even with loads of clarification and for warnings, if they hosted an equivilent on their own site and it failed to make it, well other than the fact that it would be even more embarrassing than the fact they need Kickstarter right now, I am sure fan fallout would be huge over the forums.
The only way they could risk it would be to relocate the whole idea to another company like Indigogo? but I am not sure if the costs, ease for US companies are the same.
Plus Kickstarter is in the headlines right now, like it or loathe it, so as much as I'd take advantage of an alternative route if they offered it. I think we are stuck with Kickstarter.
From my point of view, Kickstarter is now another EA, GW, Activision. As in I tend to despise the actions of the company behind the product, but I won't cut my own nose off to miss out on things I really enjoy.
So with mild grumbles I will continue to back White Wolf on Kickstarter, and hope an alternative comes up in the long run.
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Post by: Bromsy
Yeah, that's about where I am at with this. It sucks what Kickstarter did to Soda Pop, but It's not to the point where I am going to full on boycott. I put $20 in towards Tentacle Bento, which is honestly $20 more than they would have gotten from me if they had just quietly done their kickstarter. It's just another thing I'll keep in mind for the future.
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Post by: Manchu
The double stream problem goes away if you allow direct pre-orders as soon as funding is complete. The Kickstarter-only model, which is not employed by other successful projects (e.g., Shadowrun) is WW trying to capitalize on donation. What I mean by that is, paying WW to do whatever it wants. If this was an investment, I'd have some say about the future of WW. Since I don't, the "investment" is just a donation. WW isn't a charity and doesn't deserve donations. What I have learned from this experience is that customers should distinguish between products and companies. I may like Mass Effect, but EA is gak. Similarly, I'm not happy with WW's decisions (PDF/PoD exclusivity and now pandering for charity despite working with Kickstarter).
So I'm not encouraging a boycott. I'm not encouraging anyone else to do anything. My conclusion for myself is that if I decide to use Kickstarter in the future it will be solely as a pre-order service. As for WW: I won't give them anything but the absolute minimum to get something I really want. This is the attitude I should have had from the beginning but hindsight is 20/20.
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Post by: Bromsy
Yeah, I can't see myself ever kickstarting something of theirs unless its really special - looking at you W20. For their 'regular' releases? Pass.
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Post by: RiTides
Wow, looking at the rewards, they really do look like "donations" once you get beyond the lower levels of purchasing the book...
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Mmm... I can almost taste it on the wind, can you hear the howls in the distant night.. they are coming!
Some very interesting info here from the W20 blog page, a look at the Philodox and its auspice gifts.
Werewolf Gifts
What I am liking is the shuffling of the deck gift wise, especially some of the lvl 2 and 3 gifts dropping down to Lvl one. Nice.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Well this Children of the Revolution kickstarter has his $40K today, seems a little slower this time around, but I think this in part to the issues over the size of Companion.
I must admit, although it is due to be a PoD book even if it fails, so I won't have the horror of PDF only. Although I would have liked to have seen the updated Red List.
Not sure we'll get to $75K mind, at this rate we might just scrape in the $50K required.
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Post by: Manchu
I kind of hope this doesn't make it although not because of any ill-wishes towards V20 or even WW. Really, I hope WW (or really CCP) will find that Kickstarter, PoD, pdfs, etc, etc, are all not replacements for traditional distribution.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Aye, I'd prefer it was coming from them myself as well, but it does seem that this will be the only way to get the dedicated versions of the books, and not just PoD/PDF.
Tbh as long as W20 gets done, I think I'll not panic too much after that. Still waithing mind, thought it would have been up by now.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Well it made its goal about three hours ago. Just going to watch and see if it can crawl up to the $75K stretch for the Red List extras.
However looking at how this one has gone, I am doubting it will do that with 26hrs remaining.
Hopefully W20 will be up next, or at least with CotR over, they will give us a strong hint of when and/or when it is coming.
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Post by: robertsjf
Could it be Kickstarter fatigue? They roll out one project after another. Maybe they should space them more?
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I do think they should hold off on another VtM release myself, but in general WtA is mostly for a different audience.
so I would suspect W20 will get its Kickstarter appearance sooner rather than later.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
Hope they hold off for a month or two, kickstarter is all good but so much good stuff is on at the moment, and my wallet needs a rest.
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Post by: Manchu
" KS fatigue" is a good way to describe it. And MDS has a good point that the diehard WtA fans have probably not spent much or anything on the V20 stuff so they probably aren't feeling it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ravenblade666 wrote:and my wallet needs a rest.
Man you said it!
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Post by: robertsjf
would it completely derail this thread if I ask: What's the draw of WtA vs WtF? Unlike VtM fans that flew off of the handle with VR, I hadn't noticed much werewolf rage.
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Post by: Manchu
Oh it's definitely there. In a big way.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
robertsjf wrote:would it completely derail this thread if I ask: What's the draw of WtA vs WtF? Unlike VtM fans that flew off of the handle with VR, I hadn't noticed much werewolf rage.
Okies going to back away from the thread... +10 dice on the rage roll.. but he somehow passed.
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Post by: George Spiggott
Intersting. I liked WoD and WtA back in the day. I still have a bunch of the books somewhere.
It will be interesting to see how they update WtA as of all the WoD games it has dated the most. WtA had a distinctly early 90s take on environmentalism. It would be hard to envisage how it could be updated without removing the core of the game.
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Post by: Manchu
You will be able to get a .pdf explaining how to convert your books with their update.
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Post by: robertsjf
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:robertsjf wrote:would it completely derail this thread if I ask: What's the draw of WtA vs WtF? Unlike VtM fans that flew off of the handle with VR, I hadn't noticed much werewolf rage.
Okies going to back away from the thread... +10 dice on the rage roll.. but he somehow passed.
Feel free to PM me your rant. I'd be interested in reading it. That's why I made the statement. I have since found a few threads on other forums, but nothing super passionate.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Just a note, it would seem the Werewolf 20th Anniversary edition will be on Kickstarter next week after Gen con.
What was also interesting is the confirmation that the nwod Mummy the Curse game will also be a Kickstarter after W20 finishes.
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Post by: Poison
I still have every WtA book, and WtF was completely worthless, imo, so not sure if this KS is for me. I guess I ought to check it out.
We have other WtA fans here, then? =)
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Aye, friend introduced me to Vampire the Masquerade in 92, and I picked up Werewolf in 94, been pretty much playing it off and on since then, my fave published setting by a mile. I agree with WtF comments, and it still seems I have only managed to find a couple of people who where WtA fans who went on to really like WtF. Most of the WtA folks I have spoken to despised WtF with a passion, by a large margin of people, around forty so far, which as I'm not actively looking seems to be some pretty solid numbers. Still finding most WtF fans where either new to the game or played WoD but didn't like the WtA setting. As to Kickstarter, will be interesting to see what the offers are, but going on previous kickstarters from White Wolf it won't be anything too special. However I'll be looking to get one of my Werewolf npc's listed as a Athro or Elder in the thank you section of the book if I can.
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Post by: Manchu
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:What was also interesting is the confirmation that the nwod Mummy the Curse game will also be a Kickstarter after W20 finishes.
That's a little ridiculous. This is in every sense of the word a regular release. Maybe they are kickstarting a deluxe edition? That would be more reasonable. Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, that turns out to be the case: The KS for Mummy is going to be different than some we have done, as it will as usual be for a deluxe edition but this time the KS will run right before or even after the PDF and PoD versions are available.
http://whitewolfblogs.com/blog/2012/07/24/the-ww-schedule-for-aug-2012-aug-2013/
I think that timing shows WW isn't doing a "fund it or you'll be sorry" thing, which is very good. But I can see how they'd be nervous about this. No one knows if MtC will be good and it doesn't have a huge amount of good will from decades of fandom behind it. If they throw a $50,000 price tag out there for a deluxe edition of a game that people already have or simply don't want ...
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Ah, fair dues, hard to tell via the email as it wasn't clarified, just noted it would be coming up next after Werewolf.
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Post by: Poison
I liked the original Mummy game, and played one in a vampire game at one point.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Just a note, it would seem the Werewolf 20th Anniversary edition will be on Kickstarter next week after Gen con.
GLEE!
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Post by: Bromsy
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Skipped the VTM stuff - because frankly I like large parts of VTR.... but WTF just... didn't have anything going for it really. I liked a very few concepts they had, but it just didn't gel into a game I wanted to play. I bought a fair number of the splats, but nothing came from it.
WTA on the other hand, is the first RPG I bought - and after DnD it impressed the crap out of me. Played it for years.
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Post by: Poison
WtA was my first non-D&D rpg love.
Its also the first game I ever liked enough to GM.
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Post by: streamdragon
Wait wait wait. I havent been keeping up with WW much since nWoD was released. I like the system well enough but WtA and CtD were my avsolute favorite games from them. When WtF came out I didnt check into Ct?. Is there an updated version of thoae two settings available for purchaae or something? I would google but Im at work and limited to my phone for internet...
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
There was a Changeling nwod game, Its called Changeling the Lost.
I believe from what I've read fans of the WoD often note that the new Changeling game, along with Hunter where two of the best updates for the nwod.
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Post by: Manchu
Yes, those are the ones that people generally seem to like more than the oWoD versions. But looking at the old changeling compared to the new ... it's hard to see many similarities.
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Post by: Poison
My biggest concern, or whatever with the nWoD was why they felt they had to change the Vampire Clans/Werewolf Tribes. I get rebooting the franchises, but there was so much recognizability with Tremere and Gangrel and Brujah, etc.
TV shows, video games, etc all had those in them. I could never figure out why they'd make a business decision to erase all that and start over from nothing.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I have a idea on that. I always felt that the CCP buyout must have been on the cards for a while, and when you look at the changes, it seems very MMO friendly.
I maybe way off base, but much like D&D tried with 4th ed, I think White Wolf backed by the fact CCP where looking to buy/do a MMO in the future went down the path of trying to appeal to MMO players, with a similar tighter structure.
An idea I really don't get as MMO fans who aren't into tabletop RPG are probably not going to be swayed by the fact the game sorta has a similar creation style as a MMO.
Of course the changing of the story hurt the nwod, apart from a couple of nice ideas in VtR, Mage the Awakening, and obviously the two above (not counting new games like Promethian) the story was 90% poorer than the WoD. As I have noted many times the nwod felt like a diet version of the WoD, all the good flavour had been taken out.
Thus CCP when the finally got around to doing a MMO, looked at nwod, and WoD and saw plainly what many of us knew already. The WoD story was miles better than the nwod, and would make a much more interesting backdrop.
My other theory is that White Wolf wanted to stop paying Mark Rein.Hagan royalties on every book they released, so changed it for the reason.
Either way, I think it was a bad move, and didn't turn around White Wolfs falling sales, in fact I'd think it only helped speed up the damage.
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Post by: Poison
Isnt the MMO using the original Vampire the Masquerade?
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Yeah.
I better explain how I write about them, to me WoD - is Vampire the Masquerade, apocalypse etc.
nwod is just a fail.
I won't even acknowledge it by using owod some folks coin for the Original World of Darkness, to me it is WoD.
nwod is some train wreck that means nothing to me.
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Post by: streamdragon
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:There was a Changeling nwod game, Its called Changeling the Lost.
I believe from what I've read fans of the WoD often note that the new Changeling game, along with Hunter where two of the best updates for the nwod.
Manchu wrote:Yes, those are the ones that people generally seem to like more than the oWoD versions. But looking at the old changeling compared to the new ... it's hard to see many similarities.
TO AMAZON!
So that's a yes to a new WtA system with the original setting then? Is that what the W20 kickstarter is going to be? I absolutely loved that setting. The hopeless fight of the Werewolves against the Wyrm and all that. I like a good number of the changes that went into the base system of NWoD vs OWoD, so a merge of the two would save me a major headache...
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Its basically going to be a 2nd edition/revised Werewolf edition, trying to back off the metaplot that led into the Apocalypse.
It'll have all the tribes in it, plus some extras if the V20 is anything to go by, but limited new fluff/metaplot to fill in the blanks as the WoD didn't end in 2004.
There will be new art, should be full colour and I am hoping they will do at least one or two W20 books to follow and back up the main release.
As to the Lost compatibility, sadly limited and will need a little work. There is a V20 conversion guide, giving ideas how to cross over the rules between the nwod rule set and V20, but it is not a actual convertor in itself, a literal ideas guide on what you could do to make it work.
Probably worth picking up if you like the idea of Lost and Apocalypse together though. Of course they might do a W20 conversion guide as well, no idea as yet.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Its basically going to be a 2nd edition/revised Werewolf edition, trying to back off the metaplot that led into the Apocalypse.
3rd/4th edition, actually. WtA has already been through 2 editions(1992 and 1994). 3 if you count 2000's Revised Edition.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Yeah like I said, basically rules wise its revised, which is good as 2nd had a couple of minor niggles. However fluff/plot wise its more like 2nd, where there was no real sign the end is coming.
I'm pretty sure there will be no mention of Anthelios in W20 for example.
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Post by: Poison
Interesting. Its also too bad I dont know anyone playing these games anymore. LOL
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Post by: Platuan4th
Chomping at the bit, any updated news as to when W20 goes up?
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
None, keep checking the blog, and even Kickstarter, but I expecting they will send out a email via their kickstarter account as soon as it goes up.
They are shipping off one of the extra V20 books at the mo (the companion I think) so that might have delayed them a day or two.
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Post by: Manchu
Received my V20 Companion yesterday. Two copies, apparently! That's what happens when you "pledge and forget."
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Post by: Bromsy
It's that Demon:the Fallen rum.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
Got my V20 companion today, just waiting for the WtA 20th kickstarter now....
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Ah no sign of mine yet, hopefully today.
There has obviously been some kind of delay in the W20 kickstarter, but I'll get a link in here as soon as its up.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
It seems the delay is related to figuring out the correct International postage, after the mess up with V20. They are talking around the $50 mark for internationals due to the weight the book is apparently going to be.
The are also considering more interesting reward tiers for this Kickstarter after some Q&A discussion at Gencon.
It seems it could go live any time.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:It seems the delay is related to figuring out the correct International postage, after the mess up with V20. They are talking around the $50 mark for internationals due to the weight the book is apparently going to be.
The are also considering more interesting reward tiers for this Kickstarter after some Q&A discussion at Gencon.
It seems it could go live any time.
Wow 50$ shipping outside of US for WtA 20th when it comes out :( definitely dampen my expections for the kickstarter now.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Aye to be fair on them, I had a WoW TBC collectors edition come this way a month or so back and that cost $55. They are suggesting this book will be heavier than V20.
In a bit of side news, my V20 Storytellers Companion arrived two days ago. Lovely book, I did a higher tier so have both a leather backed tome and a Print on Demand copy to use as my game aid. I also got an old npc listed as a Elder at the front.
If I get time I'll take some pics.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Ickle bit of info regarding W20, it seems from those on the grapevine, it is getting closer. The final delay is Richard Thomas would rather not charge internationals $50 for shipping unless he has no alternative, so he has been getting quotes from varying postal services trying to find the best price. From what I can gather if should be up within the next two weeks, and should be aiming for a Delivery in December time, I'd guess for internationals that would equal Jan 2013. As the thread title now says, will update asap. As soon as I see the email that announces the launch of W20, this will be the first place I come to.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Its close, danged close. Richard Thomas was writing out the page on Monday, ready for a final check over by Kickstarter before it goes live, I am expecting it this week. It sounds from the sound bites that this will be a much more interesting kickstarter to back compared to the previous V20 ones, and there may be much more in the way of incentives. In other news I just read a very interesting article over at Onyx Path. It partially made me chuckle, as my long running game over nine years, had both a Croatan lost cub, a White Howler pack and a Camazotz running around. Thought I'd share. Thoughts on W20 and unhelpful game design The fact lost breeds and tribes will be in W20 right from the off, and playable is a massive bonus in my mind. It also goes along with my long standing argument that WtA still have plenty of product lines to give.
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Post by: Manchu
WW"s newest game seems to be "Kickstarter: The Hold-Up."
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Manchu wrote:WW"s newest game seems to be "Kickstarter: The Hold-Up."
Not gonna lie, that made me smile.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I chuckled as well, I'm just eager to see what they have come up with.
Badges and T-shirts where mentioned as possibilities on one of the onyx Path threads, so my Credit card is trying to find a good hiding place at the mo. 
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Just when this couldn't get any stranger, it seems there is some sad news that Richard Thomas' mother passed last week, which obviously has delayed the launch, and rightly so.
My heartfelt best wishes and condolences go out to him at this difficult time.
The mods over on White Wolf forums are of the opinion that he will be attending this weekends 'Atlanta by night; event, and there is talk that at some point over the event the Kickstarter will either go live or a set date will be given for the launch.
We shall have to wait and see.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Finally good news for those following the thread, we have release confirmation.
http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67189
Tomorrow a 9am EST, so thats 2pm to UK folks (3pm for most of the rest of the EU)
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Post by: Platuan4th
WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
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Post by: Platuan4th
Backed. I almost went for the $250 pledge, but I'd like to buy other things next month, plus the $120 amount still gets my name in the book. ;p
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Post by: Manchu
Down for the $120 despite feeling WW is a bit shady these days. Here's hoping Mummy The Curse see the light of day soon, too.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Manchu wrote:Down for the $120 despite feeling WW is a bit shady these days. Here's hoping Mummy The Curse see the light of day soon, too.
And Wraith.
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Post by: Manchu
Well, Mummy is actually on the table. It was supposed to be out at GenCon, then got pushed to September on WW's schedule, and I guess they'll launch the Kickstarter at the end of October considering they're wary about KS overlap. This is what I mean by WW, or Onyx Path, or whoever, being shady ...
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Really good start... almost half way in two and a half hours.
Mummy, I'll be watching for, Wraith I would be really interested in.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Also, my friend is making me ask: Any news on a possibility for Changeling?
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Post by: Manchu
Strange question, I've heard nWoD Changeling is actually an improvement.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Manchu wrote:Strange question, I've heard nWoD Changeling is actually an improvement.
Same, but she's an old Changeling fangirl.
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Post by: Bromsy
They got me for $120.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
And.. funded. Will be interested to see how far it goes, and if they have more interesting stretches to come. As to Changeling the Dreaming, no idea, I would hope if Mage the Ascension 20 is successful as well next year, Changeling will see a 20 as well, but no real info out there I have seen.
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Post by: streamdragon
Also in for $120. I can't begin to describe how super psyched I am for this. While Vampire the Masquerade was my introduction to the World of Darkness games, the tragic fight of the Garou made Werewolf the Apocalypse my absolute favorite of the series.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
 streamdragon wrote:Also in for $120. I can't begin to describe how super psyched I am for this. While Vampire the Masquerade was my introduction to the World of Darkness games, the tragic fight of the Garou made Werewolf the Apocalypse my absolute favorite of the series.
Totally the same reasons, tho I liked the Get of fenris because I like viking history and Thor was my favourite super hero. They have smashed the first stretch goal of 95k onwards to the 110k stretch goal.
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Post by: Poison
I miss my Silver Fangs for sure. WtA for life!
(I also loved the Year of the Lotus stuff for WtA, Hengeyokai was awesome fun!)
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Hehe, yeah big fan of the Lotus stuff as well. Hell, the Warder of the Sept of the Green in my version of the WoD is a Russian Khan, summer auspice.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Since the Hengeyokai were released, I never play anything BUT Kitsune in old WoD.
We have a very lax group when it comes to what's allowed(out of 6 players in our Gehenna campaign, only 4 were actually Vampires).
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Post by: streamdragon
That was something I enjoyed about Hengayokai, was allowing players a variety of options in what they wanted to play.
I ran a similar idea when I ran a game set in high school with everyone pre-Change/Awakening/Chrysallis (whatever the Changeling thing was called). Amazingly enough, noone wanted to play a vampire in a game set in Arizona!
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Post by: Zond
I'm tempted, but I literally have all the old W:tA books and updating a setting is easily enough. I really want to simply because I enjoy White Wolf, but with Mummy: The Curse and whatnot I'm struggling to justify this one. 
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Well the first two additional stretch goals have been reached. So thats a new Storyteller Screen we can add, and a second PDF novel.
Although I'll be waiting for both to get a POD version, as I'm not a big electronic reader.
They are working on the next stretch goals atm, and apparently are going to adding some new reward tiers where a character of your own making will get into the story some how.
Will be interested to see how much they value that, just out of curiosity.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Thought I'd do a quick update. Well so far its gone pretty well, they are over 210K, we have two novels on the cards, both PDF format at the mo for free, but I hope we'll see a PoD version eventually.
We can also add a Storytellers W20 screen to our pledges for $10 if a actual hardback book (or metal case one) has been ordered.
Next stretch is at $220K and its for a apple based dice rolling app. Not the most exciting thing to be honest in my opinion, but at the rate folks are pledging we should hit with ten days to go.
Hopefully something more exciting may yet follow.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
Don't think the apple app was an excellent idea, since not everybody has an apple mobile device, would have been better if had been on all devices, that stretch goal seemed to have
been added with little or no thought probably rushed it in to keep the money flowing.
Just my 2 pence worth.
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Post by: Manchu
What I've seen happen with such apps in the past is that they're announced for either iOS or Android at first and then they end up in both app stores. That said, the app is quite a dud. There are myriad existing (including free) apps that allow one to roll d10s. The metal book thing is so utterly ridiculous, and now this boring "goal," plus the lame V20 tiers (as I mentioned above, some time ago) is not giving the best impression of Rich's use of Kickstarter. But with these funding rates, WW has no incentive to learn anything. I'll be very curious to see how Mummy goes given they can't rely on nostalgia, at least not to the same degree.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I want one that I can use to threaten unruly players with, but not at that price.
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Post by: Manchu
I can't even imagine what they are think at over $300 for a book.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
A good example of where Rich fails with this kind of thing is the tie in novel reward. $250 for a mention of a character of your choice in the new anthology is about right, I'd not do it, but I'm sure they'll all be sold out by the end.
However the higher single option, where the character of your choosing appears as a key character in a story, even if its only a short story was shockingly undervalued. At $420 it wasn't even a consideration, just the first to type in their details got it. It would have gone just as quickly as a $1000 reward, and possible gone at $2000, much more likely than that, game over skype nonsense they keep pushing as the premium reward.
There was a similar one on one of he V20 kickstarters, where he undervalued something badly. I'll go check when I have some time.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Next stretch goal was added and has been beaten, so it is now sitting at $250K, and we will all receive a Wild West update PDF, which should be an interesting read.
Also I have played Wild West a few times, so that is a stretch goal I can put to use which is a bonus.
Six days to go, will be wondering what comes up next.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
probably the last update before the kickstarter finishes, if they reach 300k they will release a Werewolf Translation Guide PDF for swapping between WtF and WtA.
But the big pull is this for me and possibly Morathi is you will get a copy of the White Howlers Tribebook PDF if they reach 300k. Never before have we dared to present the tragic tribe that turned to the Wyrm in Tribebook form- specifically in a 64 page book modeled on the original Tribebooks. And if we pass $315,000 we'll also add in an 8 page White Howler comic to the Tribebook.
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Post by: Manchu
Are all these PDFs really that exciting? I get that last one, since this apparently something of a mystery, but even then aren't you a little anxious they might "get it wrong"?
I wonder what kind of stretch goals they will offer for MtC, considering they cannot reach back to a preexisting product line.
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Post by: Bromsy
The Wild West and White Howlers are cool, really the only stretch goals I've cared about. I'm still on the fence about the screen, I'll probably flip a coin tomorrow after work.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
Manchu wrote:Are all these PDFs really that exciting? I get that last one, since this apparently something of a mystery, but even then aren't you a little anxious they might "get it wrong"?
I wonder what kind of stretch goals they will offer for MtC, considering they cannot reach back to a preexisting product line.
Well of all of them the White howlers is nice, as for the others' I can take them or leave them.
I suppose with the PDFs' as you said it is alright if they have a preexisting catalog to fall back on, I do feel that Onyx path/White wolf rely on nostalgic value for their products
which will begin to fail them once they hit the newer lines, then they could face a uphill struggle on kickstarter.
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Post by: chromedog
I just sold my 2nd ed V:tm collection (hardcover rules, players, storytellers, various clanbooks and stuff) because I hadn't played it in about a decade and had no desire to. The guy got a great deal on it.
While I did enjoy the game when it was out, and for the several years we played it for, it has been gathering dust on my bookshelf for years and was not in any danger of being used.
Its time has definitely passed.
I've kept my "Kindred most wanted" and other large format books from Vamp, though. Nobody wanted them and the art is kinda cool.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
The White Howlers stuff should be an interesting read. They are almost back in some fashion in my own setting anyways, thanks to a rebirth of sorts via player interaction and a general storyline that had been going on for a number of years.
I'll be interested in seeing how it looks in comparison, and ideas on how the tribe functioned before the fall would be useful.
My only issue is the PDF nature, as I've noted before I'm a stickler for having actual books in my hands. So I will download and reference the PDF thankfully, but I will really be hoping a for a PoD on Drivethru asap.
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Post by: Manchu
Same here, which is why my eyes glaze over every time Rich says "PDF" -- which is very, very often. With MtC, I'd like to see something more tangible. Maybe Kickstarter-specific MtC d10s or something?
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Post by: Platuan4th
Manchu wrote:Same here, which is why my eyes glaze over every time Rich says "PDF" -- which is very, very often. With MtC, I'd like to see something more tangible. Maybe Kickstarter-specific MtC d10s or something?
Every time Rich say PDF, my mind instantly translates it to "copies that I'll spend hundreds of my own dollars buying printer ink and paper to have a hard copy of". Then I blank because I don't want to think of the cost of binding or the hours I'd spend putting them all into those binder sheets(whichever is more economical).
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Post by: Bromsy
Manchu wrote:Same here, which is why my eyes glaze over every time Rich says "PDF" -- which is very, very often. With MtC, I'd like to see something more tangible. Maybe Kickstarter-specific MtC d10s or something?
...the d10s will also be in PDF form. 
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Bromsy wrote: Manchu wrote:Same here, which is why my eyes glaze over every time Rich says "PDF" -- which is very, very often. With MtC, I'd like to see something more tangible. Maybe Kickstarter-specific MtC d10s or something?
...the d10s will also be in PDF form.
Don't even joke about that.
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Post by: Manchu
With WW, there's no need to joke!
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Well with Rich going offline thanks to Gaia and still not back yet, its a waiting game to see the final tallies.
It seems from estimates, we had enough folks take up the Heavy Metal edition that it will be getting made, but in general it was a really good Kickstarter compare to previous ones.
Still think he could have got more pledges playing the Kickstarter game with t-shirts, dice and the like, but they made their call, and in the end I am just happy to be getting the book.
The only other shame is Rich being offline for the last 24hrs of the Kickstarter probably meant we missed out on at least one, or two potential stretch goals.
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Post by: Manchu
In case anyone other than me was still wondering: Rich Thomas wrote:We’re starting to get a bit caught up, with the exception of big projects like Mummy
Rich Thomas wrote:- Mummy the Curse is still coming to me as a 2nd proof. Our designer’s computer woes continue as his OS needed to be reinstalled. Never name a book with a hostile title. This is a Curse, the Eternal Struggle was actually that, etc. Still pulling together the KS.
From November 20
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Post by: Ravenblade666
On the Onyx path facebook page, saying Mummy Kickstarter will start Tomorrow at Noon.
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Post by: Manchu
Here we go!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/mummy-the-curse-core-rulebook?ref=recently_launched Automatically Appended Next Post: So it's not a Kickstarter for a deluxe edition ...
.. until after it reaches a $30k goal?
What the feth is wrong with Rich Thomas???
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Odd call, I assume its due to a lack of confidence compared to the retro call WoD books?
Although I would still expect it to walk the 30k and beyond, 23days seems a strange choice as well.
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Post by: Manchu
It's hard to imagine they don't have confidence in the $30k mark -- after all, they chose it. So it makes me wonder, how much more would the goal need to be in order to run it as a Deluxe Edition Kickstarter? And if it's significantly higher, then I am worried that each stretch goal will only make the edition very superficially better. So, for example, if they would have needed a $100k goal to run a Deluxe Edition KS, then what deluxe features will be available for reaching the $ 40k mark? I mean, doing a third more than your goal is very significant. But you would still be $60k away from doing something like the V20 Deluxe Edition. At that point, I don't think pledgers (for fun, let's actually call them investors) are seeing much return on that further $10k.
The other possibility is that they only needed a $50k or $60k goal to do a Deluxe Kickstarter but had no confidence that enough people would pledge at the $120 level for something that wasn't VtM or WtA. But that seems ridiculous. We're only talking about around 500 people and I bet there are 500 people who would spend $120 on a V20-quality book from WW. If not, then the company might as well dissolve now. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah it does. Stranger yet: Rich Thomas wrote:There is no normal for a Kickstarter project- 30 days is recommended, but we're trying a slightly shorter time period until Jan 10th in part because the overall project already has a group of fans interested and excited about it, so we think we actually need less time to get the word out.
So many people know about it that we can cut seven days? Is seven days on the front end really worth that much time on the back? Physical delivery is currently scheduled for March 2013. If the KS ran seven more days, would delivery be April 2013? Later?
Onyx Path is a small company that seems dependent on crowd sourcing. Given that, I'd like to see them treat their funders more like investors than fans. Fans get to give feedback but are guaranteed nothing. I'm not saying that funders should be treated exactly like investors, like they shouldn't have that ownership and the decision-making rights that come with it. But some transparency on issues like the missing seven days and the piecemeal approach to a deluxe edition are sorely needed rather than half-explanations like "we think enough people are interested already."
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Post by: Manchu
Made it past $30k toward the end of day 2. Was Children of the Revolution that slow? WtA tore it up, I remember.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
$5000 for a silk bookmark.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Since a lot of KS have bits in the middle that pull in few backers, and little money several companies are experimenting with shorter KS projects by dropping a week or two,
and having a bit with slow progress means folk in the comments start moaning about it slowing down and POTENTIALLY putting off new backers
Looking at the stats for WtA it fits this profile
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-werewolf-the-apocalypse-20th-anniversary-ed/#chart-daily
so they may well feel a shorter period like this may give more cash overall (especially as Mummy probably has fewer nostalgia buyers interested in it)
Looking at Kicktraq
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Post by: robertsjf
That's a fascinating chart! I like how you have the early adopters and the last minuters and nothing in between! Since you pointed out that Mummy will have fewer nostalgia buyers, what do you think that chart will look like?
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Post by: Manchu
I guess we should keep in mind that this is probably not very different from how purchases of relatively obscure RPGs look in other channels. Fans know a thing is going to come out and are certain that they will buy it. And as soon as they can, they spend money on it. Other than those fans, there aren't a huge amount of other buyers. With Mummy, neither day one nor the fall off on day two should be so high given that not as many folks will have heard of the project before news of the KS gets around relative to the expectations surrounding W20. But once the fall off happens, I expect it will be severe.
This is exactly what puzzles me about the structure of this project. Asking for a sixth of your goal to push the first (and so far only) "deluxe" feature when you can bank on this kind of fall-off seems to indicate that they had already abandoned any serious intention of creating a Deluxe Edition before starting the project. That is even more apparent given that the next goal, $10,000 after the $5,000 goal, is not a deluxe feature at all but some kind of novella cycle. The rumored further goal is a GM er, storyteller screen. So what would that put us at for getting even a second deluxe feature? $60,000?
V20 had (1) full color, (2) silk bookbarks, (3) gilt pages, (4) leather cover, (5) cover embossing, and (6) spine medallion. IIRC, W20 has all the same. At this rate, the possibility of MtC getting similar treatment seems nill. And that makes sense. I mean, why would a new game get the 20th Anniversary treatment? I just wish WW or Onyx Path or whoever (Rich Thomas) would have been more open about that over the last few months as he constantly referred to a MtC "deluxe edition."
As things stand, I'm comfortable keeping my low-ball pledge here. I don't want a slew of pdfs and honestly, Suleiman's talent as an author completely notwithstanding, I really don't want any hypothetical pdf novellas. If the best I can get out of this is the kind of book WW/CCP used to ship to retailers, and I can get that book for $40, I'm fine with it. But I'm also fine not throwing anymore pennies at the project -- which will ultimately make me feel less guilty for pledging $120+ for a properly deluxe M20 later in the year, I guess.
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Post by: robertsjf
Or a nWoD Pimp: The Backhanding
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Post by: Platuan4th
I don't think my interest has ever died as quickly as it did after finding out it was a nWoD version of Mummy.
Save me money, though.
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Post by: Bromsy
Yup, Mummy was about the only OWoD I never even dabbled in. I'm going to pass on this one.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Sadly nwod means no sale for me, I'm happy with my second edition Mummies for WoD, and can't see any use for this.
Going to save up for the next W20 Kickstarter, as this one has been clearly funded, hence I can see no reason why they would not continue with their current plans as using the site as a funding medium.
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Post by: Ravenblade666
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Cheers for the link mate.
An important note for V20 fans, is that they have added a V20 ST Screen as a pledge level to come with the HH2 hardback. $60 for US residents, $70 for non US.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Just a note on what has been going on over on the Kickstarter over the last couple of weeks.
Well it was funded, pretty quickly as it happens, and Rich has come up with some nice stretches this time around. They are offering additional information, initially as a PDF file, but as thresholds have been passed, they are being added into the main book itself.
So far we have added an Inquisition section and a Project Twilight section. Any Mage the Ascension fans waiting in the wings should be aware that they will be offering a section on the Arcanum as the next stretch.
I would imagine like with Project Twilight section looking at both the Vampire and Garou effects of the Project in recent years, this Mage stretch will grant a little info on the Ascension Mages.
Worth a look surely, plus with the Inquisition in there, its now a potential antagonist book for all the WoD settings.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Wasn't going to jump on it, but I'm tempted now with the added sections and seeing that it's cheaper than I assumed at first.
Always enjoyed Project: Twilight(in fact, I played a SAD agent at my very first New Orleans by Night Mind's Eye Theatre one shot) and Hunter, really only the cost aspect holding me back.
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Post by: Mannahnin
V20
Has anyone commented yet on how "vigesimal" this concept is?
...I'll get my coat.
(Unless someone actually gets that reference)
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Mannahnin wrote:V20
Has anyone commented yet on how "vigesimal" this concept is?
...I'll get my coat.
(Unless someone actually gets that reference)
Someone's a Math Nerd.
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Post by: Manchu
I know I haven't had a lot of good things to say about Rich's KickStarters so far but he's running HHII impeccably. My only concern is that Onyx Path does not consciously start with slimmed down products and then pad them out with stretch goals a la EA DLC or something.
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Post by: Mannahnin
 Platuan4th wrote: Mannahnin wrote:V20
Has anyone commented yet on how "vigesimal" this concept is?
...I'll get my coat.
(Unless someone actually gets that reference)
Someone's a Math Nerd.
Thanks for dignifying it with a guess. It's actually an very old-school WW reference as well.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Received my W20 PDF link today. Downloading now.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Yeah mine is down, loving the look of the book, although I really dislike PDF books, I wanted to check my two Legend credits, and although correct are not next to each other, so have requested Richard if there is any chance they could be before printing. (A pair of twins from my campaign)
Loving some of the stuff on there, Totems for some of the lesser known sub tribes and gifts etc, should be a beauty once the Steel-book and the tome arrive.
Oh and apologies Mannahnin, this one flew under my radar after the last kickstarter ended, but I sadly would not have gotten that joke.. Mage related? (My weakest WoD knowledge.)
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Post by: Platuan4th
MDS, what page of the PDF do the Legend credits begin? Nuance hates the graphics on the borders and is taking forever for me to read through thanks to slow loading.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Right near the back, pull it down, it'll skip a bit and take a few moments to load each third or so you pull down, but once its on the last page, scroll up past the pic, Werewolf sheet and the appendixes to find the 'reward ranks section, Legends is the last, and will the first you find.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Thanks!
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Post by: Mannahnin
 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Oh and apologies Mannahnin, this one flew under my radar after the last kickstarter ended, but I sadly would not have gotten that joke.. Mage related? (My weakest WoD knowledge.)
Yay, someone indulges my weakness for obscure gaming trivia!
No, it's a reference to Masquerade, the original vampire LARP rules. If you'll recall you used adjectives for Traits, describing your character's physical, social, and mental abilities. So for physical 3 I might choose Wiry, Powerful, and Quick. For Social 5 I might choose Witty x2, Perceptive x2, Friendly x1. The rules gave example lists of traits, and said it was okay to use others if you wanted, but you had to be reasonable about it. That you shouldn't use obscure words so we all had to carry around copies of the OED to reference whenever some joker busted out a "vigesimal".
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Post by: Platuan4th
Mannahnin wrote: Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Oh and apologies Mannahnin, this one flew under my radar after the last kickstarter ended, but I sadly would not have gotten that joke.. Mage related? (My weakest WoD knowledge.)
Yay, someone indulges my weakness for obscure gaming trivia! No, it's a reference to Masquerade, the original vampire LARP rules. If you'll recall you used adjectives for Traits, describing your character's physical, social, and mental abilities. So for physical 3 I might choose Wiry, Powerful, and Quick. For Social 5 I might choose Witty x2, Perceptive x2, Friendly x1. The rules gave example lists of traits, and said it was okay to use others if you wanted, but you had to be reasonable about it. That you shouldn't use obscure words so we all had to carry around copies of the OED to reference whenever some joker busted out a "vigesimal".
Ah, ok. I'd never played the older LARP rules, only the "By Night" versions. And generally, pre-made characters as it was mostly at events. My only semi-regular was a Werewolf Baton Rouge By Night.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Hmm, it would seem the next Kickstarter will be Exalted 3rd edition.
An interesting choice, not one of the lines I ever played much, but I will keep an eye on it just in case I decide to jump in.
No idea when yet, but as they are announcing it as incoming, I would guess within the month. Any exalted fans out there?
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Post by: Bromsy
I'm a pretty big fan of Exalted. I wonder how they are going to manage a full release schedule for Exalted using Kickstarter. Unless they are going for a more modest edition.
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Post by: Ronin_eX
Holy crap, this thing is likely to break $200k before the day is out. That's kind of insane for an RPG kickstarter, hell, that's kind of insane for any kickstarter short of the videogame ones looking for $1 million or more. I figure the WoD stuff was never a big draw for me, but I have a lot of fond (and not so fond during 2nd Edition) memories of Exalted. The current dev team put out some solid stuff near the tail end of 2nd Edition (some of my favourite stuff ever published for Exalted) and seem to get what people are looking for. So I am totally down for the book. May have to grab one of those cloth maps.
Hmm, lesse, between this, Deadzone and Warzone I am fast reaching the $1000 mark on KS investments... I may need to stop soon.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Aye, it went live yesterday, it was closer than I thought and by the fates I wasn't expecting that big a run off the bat. That's up there with the Werewolf launch, impressive.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition?ref=users
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Post by: Manchu
I'm truly shocked by this. I always thought Exalted was the laughing stock of (playable) RPG games. I really had no idea the game had that many fans.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I'll pass. I'd rather read through it before I buy. I was disappointed with some of the options Dragonblooded lost from 1st to 2nd.
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Post by: Ronin_eX
 Manchu wrote:I'm truly shocked by this. I always thought Exalted was the laughing stock of (playable) RPG games. I really had no idea the game had that many fans.
It vacillates quite a bit. I have very fond memories of early 1st Edition and early 2nd wasn't too terrible. The worst bits came usually during the mid-life of the game when they had quality control issues from books not written by the original core team (though the core in both 1st and 2nd could use a lot of tweaks, especially 2nd's mass combat and social combat rules).
That said, the later stuff produced during the Ink Monkeys/Onyx Path era (i.e. late late 2nd Edition) the stuff they wrote for the line was actually really awesome.
The game was actually jury-rigged to work within the confines of the not-so-great core system. A lot of bad charm sets had been fixed and things looked quite good. But the errata documents needed to do this were so big by this point that running the fixed game was an exercise in frustration.
So I am backing on the strength of their core design team and the excellent work they they produced despite a less than awesome core to work with. If they stick to a leaner publishing schedule worked on only by the main team or with heavy oversight (the latter was the biggest issue in 2nd because quality control was horrendous and produced crap like Scroll of the Monk) and a clear vision, then 3rd Edition will be stellar.
I'm interested to see what these guys can do when given free reign to actually fix the core of the system, because they did great work when given authority to prune and sculpt the last edition.
Exalted has loads of fans but a lot of us were lost along the way because of QC issues in prior editions. A lot of this is solved by WW/ OP being a lot leaner than they were back in those days. Their restructuring has lead to some great things, and I hope 3rd Edition will be one of them. Either way it is still one of the most awesome settings in modern gaming with a lot of depth and lore backing it up. It has just needed the right team to really spend some time hammering out a proper rule set for it. And from my experience with the current team, I think they're the guys for the job.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Now the highest funded Onyx path project so far on Kickstarter, with fifteen days to go.
Just wow.
On a side note, it seems the Vampire the Masquerade by Night, live roleplay stuff might actually grab me as well when it launches. Not so much because I will be playing it, but because they seem to have done what I wanted Onyx to do, which is negotiate with CCP and get the ability to offer pin badges to backers.
Will alert this thread when it starts.
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Post by: Bromsy
Yeah, it is pretty cool to see this doing so well, but I am uber bummed because I can't afford to jump in on it right now. Absolutely awful timing.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
The Minds Eye game is now live on Kickstarter. Please note even if not a fan of the Live roleplay, they are offering high quality Clan Pin Badges as a upgrade offer at $20 each, and some reward tiers get them added in as well.
Mind's Eye Theatre: Vampire the Masquerade
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Post by: Platuan4th
Got really excited by this tidbit in the W20 update:
"W20 Changing Breeds: Not part of this KS, but I thought you'd like to know that Stew Wilson is gargling and getting ready his dulcet tones in order to do his voice-over for W20:CB's Kickstarter video next Monday."
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Post by: Ravenblade666
 Platuan4th wrote:Got really excited by this tidbit in the W20 update:
"W20 Changing Breeds: Not part of this KS, but I thought you'd like to know that Stew Wilson is gargling and getting ready his dulcet tones in order to do his voice-over for W20: CB's Kickstarter video next Monday."
Same here!
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Aye, cannot wait for that one, want to see what they are going to do with Bastet, Swara especially. (Although I suspect I'll have to boost the Str bonus on Khan, Balam and Simba again.)
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Post by: Platuan4th
So it's been awhile since we've done classic WoD. How many advancements would be considered middle tier? I wanna run the Skinner SAS for a group but can't remember where to start them at.
A page number in the W20 PDF for it would help(assuming I don't find it before).
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
What Adren rank?
Going on the ST handbook..
Atrributes: 9/6/4 +1 extra dot to one of the three
Abilities: 22/15/12
Gifts: 5 lvl One, three level two and an additional three gifts that can be used for any available levels (up to three, as a ST I'd probably limit two Lvl three.)
Background: 10 points
Rage, Gnosis and Willpower: gain +1 point over starting
Freebie Points: 20
This would represent characters that have seen a fair bit of action previous to the story.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Thanks! My PDF copy likes to go a bit slow, so it's a bear to find things at times. Gonna put it on my Nook and see if it runs better.
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Post by: Bromsy
Bought into the EX3 kickstarter. Screw it, it's one of my favorite gaming systems and my birthday is coming up. I'm liking a lot of the mechanical changes they are talking about making
http://theonyxpath.com/exalted-third-edition-mechanics-overview/
Seems like they are fixing a lot of issues. I especially love the moving to combat rounds from the ticks system, and dropping the social combat. And the changes to Martial Arts sounds interesting.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I'll admit I am tempted.
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Post by: Bromsy
Six hours left, if you're gonna do it, do it
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Next Werewolf 20 kickstarter is up.. Changing Breeds.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-w20-changing-breeds
Jumped straight in for this one, as I've always been a massive fan of the fera.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Backed!
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Post by: Bromsy
Got my copy of W20 in hand. This is a fething awesome looking book. Too bad I have to go to work so I can't spend the next few hours salivating over it.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Nice to hear they are going out, waiting on mine, but it has a bit of a pond to get across first.
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Post by: Manchu
Did anyone get the new Demon game?
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I think that was nwod so I skipped it.
I have had hunters Hunted 2 turn up just before Christmas with the VtM 20th ST screen, which is very nice.
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Post by: Ahtman
$135 is the lowest tier to get the actual book and not a pdf? Ouch.
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Post by: Manchu
Between V20 and W20, price went up but physical quality went down. Price has gone up yet again (by $15) for M20. I am going to have to think about it but I am not that enthusiastic just now. On the plus side, WW/Onyx Path is one of the few companies I trust to deliver on time or reasonably close to on time.
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Post by: Bromsy
Looks nice, but I'll probably give it a pass.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Well Mage is getting funded which is the main thing, I'm not looking for a deluxe there to be honest, so I'm not backing. Will do a print on demand from Drivethru down the road.
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Post by: Bromsy
worst....timing.....ever.
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