This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

For starters, My Wolves HAVE to have some kind of delivery system to get into Melee/not get Psi-bolted to death which is fine, this is 5th ed, I'm used to transport spam by now. I knew he brings max Psi-dreads, so I took two land raiders. The game starts, and he has servo skulls set up EVERYWHERE! He then proceeds to hit one of my land raiders with one of his three tech marines,(who have conversion beamers, and orbital relays, and were with strike squads) Luckily I roll my cover save from popping smoke. By the end of the game, one land raider was down, and the other was messed up, and my vindicator was toast, from the relay. which costs a whopping 50 points, and when it hits, is the best AT weapon in the game.

The next thing is, since when should an army be allowed to have a unit that can take grenades that allow it to not just even the playing field in a melee, but COMPLETELY unbalance it in their favor? I had: Grimnar, Ragnar, a storm shield frost blade, saga of the bear Wolf lord, and six wolf guard with power weapons.He had, a techmarine(with psychotroke), and a 10 man strike squad, he proceeds to lower me to 1 attack per guy, and I'm convinced the only reason I won by three kills is because I did the "High King" special rule, and had preferred enemy. All told, my squad was 858 points, not even counting the land raider to get them there. His probably didn't even break 250-275pts. Maybe in an alternate universe this would seem fair, but to me, GK just seem stacked, with things like Psychotroke nades, and the laundry list of other things they can do.

My ultimate question is: does anyone else feel the same way? I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves, GK seem like they have the Cheese built right in their wargear. I hope this isn't a trend, because Ward Gave Crons a similar thing with Mindshackle scarabs, though not quite as bad, but he needs to stop this whole : "lets make nades that can win you an assault by a huge margin, even if you are 600pts lower than the squad assaulting you!" Please remember, this is just my 10 cents, and I just wanted to hear other people's thought's on the subject.

bobamus87 wrote:I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves

Keep telling yourself that.


I can accept that there's some things in the GK Codex that could use some toning down, mainly Psychotroke Grenades and Halberd, but CONVERSION BEAMERS?! The solution to the squad you fought would've been to shoot them. They die just as easily as any other Marine team, if you charge into them you're playing on their terms.

I think GK are excellent across the board which is a problem for everyone else. They have excellent shooting, they have excellent assault, excellent psykers, excellent heroes and characters... so on and so forth. If you were to compare the standard additional GK with the standard additional marine (in their army list) and what each of them have as rules and equipment you'll see the problem in its most basic form.

My question was did you adjust your tactics to fighting them. Grey Knights are the worst army in the world for MEQs to assault, all of those Force Weapons. But they are only overpriced Marines for the most part. Like most they have some tricks up their sleeves, but they are venerable to most things that kill marines. This was also your first time fighting them I guess.
Something to remember:
-Space Wolves are a Medium Ranged Shooting Army with Superior Counter Assault Ability.
-Grey Knights are a Medium Range Shooting Army with Superior Assault Ability vs. MEQs.

A Gunline Plasma Armed Space Wolf Army could inflict real damage to a Grey Knight Army.
Njal has the possibility to shut down their Physic Powers.
Long Fangs should do horrible things to the Dreads.

Grey Knights are not Over Powered, just Very Powerful.

Basically, you did everything wrong. His list wasn't even a really optimized one.

He can't fire his Orbital Relys and his Conversion Beamers at the same time AFAIK.


GKs are an army that you need to out shoot. Long Fang spam can counter Psyflmen dreadnoughts but just accept that Stunning and Shaking isn't good enough, you need to kill the Dreadnoughts.

Purifiers and Strike Squads love getting into Melee with MEQs because they all have force weapons. So shoot them to death and they arn't any better then normal Marines.


A 26 point purifier dies just as easily as a 16 point Grey Hunter remember that. GKs have increased damage output because, point for point, they are less durable.

for 300 points you can get 10 Purifiers with gear OR 18 Grey Hunters with some gear. The Purifiers are easier to kill.

GKs have very little damage mitigation aside from increasing their inititive to strike first. Its a very steep premium they pay too.

GK are powerful, this much is true, but SW are more OP than them in terms of overall power. Cheap units, weapons, rules and other crap go a long way.

GK are definitely strong army.
Few points:
-Psychotrope Grenades are definitely OP. And very bad mechanic.
-GK are basically tailor made to take out TWC.

Conversion beamers are IMO quite poor. To get S10 AP1 you'd have to be over 42" from the Techmarine after scatter. And under 18" it is S6 AP-.
So if he has Techmarine joined with 10-man Strike squad, he is has only 6" range where Strikes can shoot and Beamer is S8 AP4.

Same goes for OSR. They always scatter the full 2D6. No reduction for BS. No reduction for servo-skull. Will also scatter when hit is rolled.
Land Raiders are large targets so OSR will hit it ~20-30% time (7 inches long, 6 inches wide, 3" radius template).

Techmarine with Conversion beamer, 3x servo skulls, Psychotrope grenades and OSR is 1W IC costing 184 points with no invuln save. He will die in first round of combat, that's for sure. Add strikes and the unit is ~400 points.

bobamus87 wrote:This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

Anytime you make a post about how "army 'x' is OP!!1!" is techinically a flame thread...
We know 40k is woefully unbalanced. If you play an older army, you go into each game knowing the much more recent books will have a huge advantage over you. If you play a Xenos force, you know your learning curve is a helluva lot bigger than the 'beginner friendly' spesh mehreens!!! And so on and so on...

Sure, Ward's an idiot who only 200% destroyed an entire edition of Fantasy, but he's done some decent work in 40k with the Codex: Space Marines being an overall really well balanced book. Necrons also seem pretty tame overall, but we'll see what 6th edition brings.
Still, while BA's are highly obnoxious and GK's are an outright -you to Daemon & Tyranid players, you haven't felt the true scale of when Ward *really* makes an OP book until you've suffered Daemons in 7th edtion fantasy...

bobamus87 wrote:My ultimate question is: does anyone else feel the same way? I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves, GK seem like they have the Cheese built right in their wargear. I hope this isn't a trend, because Ward Gave Crons a similar thing with Mindshackle scarabs, though not quite as bad, but he needs to stop this whole : "lets make nades that can win you an assault by a huge margin, even if you are 600pts lower than the squad assaulting you!" Please remember, this is just my 10 cents, and I just wanted to hear other people's thought's on the subject.

As a SW player, your two 'best' units are also highly undercosted, meaning SW filth is right alongside GK/BA/IG filth as being amongst the stinkiest crap to have ever befouled 40k... SW's spam builds are no less 'power gamer/WAAC's' than the likes of 4th edition's eldar 'flying circus' or 'Nidzilla spams, or the even earlier 3.5 Iron Warriors and 'siren daemonbombs' or 'Seer congress' and so on and so on...

Now, yes, GK's are excessively over the top in their filthy choices. Psychotrokes, halberds being a 'better' MoS, psybolts being stupid-cheap, fortitude, warp quake...

Now, envision this; try being the poor sod who plays Daemons.
At least as SW's you get to put your models on the table...



So yes, GK's are totally OP with the right build.
But then every single army has at least one OP build that can make any game into an 'easy mode/insta-win'.

Experiment 626 wrote:
But then every single army has at least one OP build that can make any game into an 'easy mode/insta-win'.

Go ahead and show me a Tau list that does that. Or a nid list. Or a sisters list. Or a Demons list. Or an eldar list. Go right ahead. And make sure it will instant win vs GK, SW and IG.

I won't be waiting.

I think he meant 'every PA army with a codex release in the last year or two '

It seems to be a case of knowing what to target when you play against Grey Knights.

ShatteredBlade wrote:It seems to be a case of knowing what to target when you play against Grey Knights.

Huh?

Purifiers have 2 Psycannons per 5 models (with Fearless)...

Psydreads have 2 ACs and Fortitude.

Both are valid targets, both are equally difficult to wipe off the board and carry a substantial opportunity cost. I would think that if you were playing IG you would be afforded the luxury of a long range AP3 blast template for efficient Purifier melting, but not everyone has something that accessible.

I'm not even sure what GK list people are building where a single unit on the board isn't a lucrative target. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe you can elaborate - what are your strategies for defeating Grey Knights? What do you mean by "knowing what to target?" Do you mean that there is an inherent target priority, and that following that target priority will make things go easier? What kinds of units or what kinds of lists are you referring to?

Experiment 626 wrote:
As a SW player, your two 'best' units are also highly undercosted,

SO TRUE, Long Fangs compared to Devastators, lolwtf

Experiment 626 wrote:
Now, yes, GK's are excessively over the top in their filthy choices. Psychotrokes, halberds being a 'better' MoS, psybolts being stupid-cheap, fortitude, warp quake...

Fortitude is ludicrous, but I cannot imagine why anyone would want a Force Weapon upgrade to carry a better initiative than a CSM with MoS. Matching MoS is one thing, but it's fair to say that Halberds effectively null MoS, which is a shade of insane I don't dare dwell on for too long.

Halberds should give +1I.

Ascalam wrote:I think he meant 'every PA army with a codex release in the last year or two '

It's sad that this is the state of GW apologetics.

I mean really sad.

Now, envision this; try being the poor sod who plays Daemons.

I do play daemons, and its not all that bad against GK
Granted warpquake really is an issue, but its one you can get past.
Also, keep in mind most armies will shoot GK to death, this is something a daemons army cant do. (even mono tzeentch will struggle to do so)

Its just a case of playing cheese against cheese.
Nothing wrong with skulltaker and a herald on jugger leading 8 crushers.
Then 2 more units of 8 crushers on the flanks.
While fateweaver sits near by.

Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are an army that you need to out shoot. Long Fang spam can counter Psyflmen dreadnoughts but just accept that Stunning and Shaking isn't good enough, you need to kill the Dreadnoughts.

Purifiers and Strike Squads love getting into Melee with MEQs because they all have force weapons. So shoot them to death and they arn't any better then normal Marines.

Oh yeah, great, lemme just get out my Blood Angels Codex and fix you right up a list that will outshoot GKs and not have to get into CC with any of your force weapons.

Oh wait, it seems that such a list doesn't exist.

Hot tip, Purifiers also love getting into melee with multi wound models, high base initiative models, Slaanesh models, and Horde armies. Oh, and they can get a situational 5S or instant death, so they can instant kill Nobs and Meganobs, ICs, and MCs.

Oh, and then there's the fun fact that Purifiers outshoot Tacs and Assault Marines. What Marine list is outshooting GKs, exactly?

Grey Templar wrote:
GKs have very little damage mitigation aside from increasing their inititive to strike first. Its a very steep premium they pay too.

Yeah, and all they get for it is Power Weapons for every unit in the Codex, I6, 5 point Thunder Hammers, +1 Strength or FWA, and Storm Bolters. Everyone feel sorry for them.

If you can't figure out a way to kill very expensive T4 3+ save models they you probably should go play Warmachine.

Yes, they are OP. They're not as game-breakingly bad as people make them out to be, they're not an insta-win even in their WAAC competitive builds, but they are probably the most unbalanced codex at the moment, or tied with SW for that title.

Allow me to demonstrate my logic. Take your basic Grey Knight Strike Squad member. 20 points per model, if I remember correctly. For that, you get a force weapon, a storm bolter and psychic powers.

Now let's say I wanna recreate that kind of gear in any other MEQ codex. Well, psychic powers and such you can't get at all. But getting a power weapon, closest thing to a force weapon available. That's +15 points for an upgrade. Added onto the 15-16 point base cost for your basic tac marine (depending on codex) that's 30-31 points just for the power weapon. Throw on a storm bolter, which is usually a 3 point upgrade and we're talking 33-34 points per model. This isn't factoring in any of the GK's psychic powers.

This is the crux of why they are so potent. Unless you're playing Draigowing or a TEQ army, you can come close to matching the numbers of other MEQ armies, while being better man for man. Grey Knights are supposed to be small, elite armies? You wouldn't know it from the numbers they can field.

858 points? Quite a lot of eggs in one basket. Anyways, I hate the new codex. Just doesn't seem too good. You can do anything with the new codex and come out on top most of the time. I have no problem with Henchmen, they're actually pretty cool. My 10 cents.

-Wolf Guard 252

I have played GK many times now and have done pretty well. Its because I just accepted right from the get go the I wasn't, under any circumstances going to beat them in close combat. It just isnt going to happen.

Everytime I've beaten them its because I applied good target priority with the right kind of firepower. Although, I think as it stands Necrons is one of the best armies for fighting GK right now. So, I guess I have it easier than most.

SW are not overpowered. They are not close combat gods with Force Weapons who pay 5pts to make the str of their gun go up by 1 on a Dreadnought that comes with the equivalent of Daemonic Possession.

As I have said in other threads, I don't blame the Grey Knight players for playing the army as it isn't their fault that the development team at GW are complete idiots with no sense of balance in a game whatsoever.

Wolves get Long Fangs for cheap...ok its a Devastator squad that can split fire but almost always has to be up in a building somewhere to get the maximum fire arcs that it wants. Unless Logan Grimnar is with them, they aren't moving and firing. Thunderwolves can be wrecked by a lot of stuff nowadays. Rune Priests with Jaws didn't get mentioned but is worth of mentioning. In certain situations, Jaws rocks. Then again it doesn't always work. Look at how many armies nowdays have Psychic Defense that can basically shut it down.

Have you seen all the Poison weapons that the Dark Eldar can bring to the table? That army disheartened me so bad I sold my Daemons after my 5th straight loss to them in which every one of my monstrous creatures died the turn they landed in every game.

Necrons have their OP stuff too and so do the Blood Angels. Death Company Dread with double Blood Talons comes to mind. A guy I know lost 23 Orks out of a 25 man squad to one of these monsters...

How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such?

When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves

Keep telling yourself that.


I can accept that there's some things in the GK Codex that could use some toning down, mainly Psychotroke Grenades and Halberd, but CONVERSION BEAMERS?! The solution to the squad you fought would've been to shoot them. They die just as easily as any other Marine team, if you charge into them you're playing on their terms.

I wasn't even complaining about beamers, I deployed in such a way to where I negated the danger they posed, it was his orbital strike's that were killing me, and as far as plasma(in reply to a different poster) I brought plenty, 18 combi plasma's, perhaps even that wasn't enough though. And plasma cannon devastators get eaten alive by psibolt, I'll have to buy some more transports, and keep them in them, and move them to a good firing postition next time, and pray They don't eat a million psi-dread shots, and when they get out, get hit by psi-stacked ammo. My biggest complaint was nothing more than, their average marine is 20pts per man, and for 5 points more than a Grey hunter, gets a storm bolter(which will hit at S5 if the person has half a brain cell) and a weapon that can instant kill things, and cast hammer hand, to hit at S5 in cc as well. It's that they are good at pretty much everything, and their only downside, isn't even that bad, in that they are slightly higher pts cost.

Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Reivax26 wrote:SW are not overpowered. They are not close combat gods with Force Weapons who pay 5pts to make the str of their gun go up by 1 on a Dreadnought that comes with the equivalent of Daemonic Possession.

As I have said in other threads, I don't blame the Grey Knight players for playing the army as it isn't their fault that the development team at GW are complete idiots with no sense of balance in a game whatsoever.

Wolves get Long Fangs for cheap...ok its a Devastator squad that can split fire but almost always has to be up in a building somewhere to get the maximum fire arcs that it wants. Unless Logan Grimnar is with them, they aren't moving and firing. Thunderwolves can be wrecked by a lot of stuff nowadays. Rune Priests with Jaws didn't get mentioned but is worth of mentioning. In certain situations, Jaws rocks. Then again it doesn't always work. Look at how many armies nowdays have Psychic Defense that can basically shut it down.

Have you seen all the Poison weapons that the Dark Eldar can bring to the table? That army disheartened me so bad I sold my Daemons after my 5th straight loss to them in which every one of my monstrous creatures died the turn they landed in every game.

Necrons have their OP stuff too and so do the Blood Angels. Death Company Dread with double Blood Talons comes to mind. A guy I know lost 23 Orks out of a 25 man squad to one of these monsters...

SW are overpowered, the rest of your points are valid i agree for the most part, but SW are most definatly over powered, as a DA player i had my time of cheese (a few months in 3rd lol) but would bloody kill for the cheese that is the basic grey hunter squad, let alone long fangs, rune priest psy defence, rune priest psy powers (living lightning wtf!!) thunderwolves, sagas, welll the whole dex (you can keep blood claws lol), i cannot wait until the DA dex omes out and we get 10 man dev sqauds with all lascannons (2 shots cos we is bad angels) for 100pts...for all 10, then the cheese shall be on the other.... foot?

Grey Templar wrote:How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such?

When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

Nonsense.

The whole reason it's "useless" from your perspective is because only an idiot would use CC ICs w/o EW against GKs. And likewise people don't even consider Meganobz any more, and Warbosses/Nobs are simply inadvisable against GKs. Likewise, downplaying its significance against MCs is incredibly disingenuous. You're acting as though it doesn't exist.

There's no opportunity cost associated with that. You just have it, for free, on every PA model. You don't even realize that it exists. That's so ridiculous. Imagine if you had to spend 10 points on that upgrade.

Imagine a world where a SM player could actually consider a SM captain or where an Ork player could actually use Meganobz.

But aside from that, JW, but you do realize that you get a Power Weapon on a 20 point model? Do you appreciate or even recognize that? Do you realize that other codexes have to actually -pay- for their Power Weapons, or has that even occurred to you? Has it occurred to you that every other codex has to pay 25 points for their Power Fists, and you can spend 30 points and get a GKSS w/ a Force Hammer?

Grey Templar wrote:Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Oh, well, okay, that makes everything cool. You can only have one or the other.

Now when I assault a Nob unit into your Purifiers I'm still going to get instant death'd, but at least it's not going to be at strength 5.

Yeah the Dark Angels are going to get the Ward treatment. I really liked the rumor about the Plasma Cannon Predator variant and the idea of their Plasma's not overheating at all. To be honest I don't think the "Gets Hot" rule should even exist in the game as it is completely stupid. They can make ships capable of Warp Travel but they can't make a Plasma weapon that doesn't overheat....seriously?

Reivax26 wrote:Yeah the Dark Angels are going to get the Ward treatment. I really liked the rumor about the Plasma Cannon Predator variant and the idea of their Plasma's not overheating at all. To be honest I don't think the "Gets Hot" rule should even exist in the game as it is completely stupid. They can make ships capable of Warp Travel but they can't make a Plasma weapon that doesn't overheat....seriously?

You're wearing power armor. Get over it. It's a 1 in 6 and then a 1 in 3. You get an armor save. If it's that big of a deal play BAs and grab a FnP bubble, then you can cut it in half.

Its not that I have a problem using them and they keep overheating its the whole idea that in the 41st millenium they haven't figured out how to keep it from happening. The Tau at least smartened up a bit and decided to lower the power on theirs so they wouldn't but it still is quite silly that the rule exists at all.

Plasma works vs. GK, figure a Grey Hunter Squad with 2 Plasma Guns and a Wolf Guard with a Combi-Plasma could wipe out half a Paladin Squad in one volley. Missile Launchers firing Krak or Las Cannons will ID any Paladin. A Vindicator will also crush any squad it impacts on.
You have to remember the Optimum Range for Grey Knights is 24”
Space Wolves are 12”-24”
Unless the Grey Knights Deep Strike or are loaded up on Storm Ravens they have to cross into your guns for at least one Turn.
If you have Njal or 1-2 Rune Priest Deep Striking will become an issue for Grey Knights.

You take a Loganwing you can field an entire 3+/3++ with 3 models with Eternal Warrior.
-Logan: all Attacks can cause ID, hits on a 3+
-Arjac: All of his Attacks will cause ID, hits on a 3+
-Wolf Lord in Terminator Armor with Chain Fist, Storm Shield Wolf Tooth Necklace, and Saga of the Bear. All of his Attacks will Cause ID, hits on a 3+
I run a pair of Lone Wolves that can kill off a 5 man Grey Knight Squad in close combat in only a full turn. [Power Armor, Storm Shield, MotW]. If you drop the MotW for a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer all Attacks will Cause ID.
The emphasis on Instant Death: Paladins. Vs. the models above.
With that combo I am fielding 5 Eternal Warriors.

The other thing to remember is all of the Wolf Tail Talismans you can field.

I would not look at the Grey Knights vs. Space Wolves as two Over Power Armies, but if played well one of the most Epic Battles you could have.

And Paladins require a different strategy then "How do I kill them?"

Because they answer to that question is "You can't!"



Paladins are however incredibly expensive, but also slow. They can't take any DTs, and might not even be able to afford a LR even if they could take one.

Avoid them and play the mission. If its Kill Points you might have an issue but otherwise Paladins are incredibly difficult to pull a win with.

There is a reason that TH/SS terminators are rarely used as foot sloggers. Paladins have the same issue but are 3 times as expensive.

I was also thinking Sternguard would do well.
My normal is a Sergeant with Power Fist/Combi-Plasma, 2 Plasma Guns and the other 7 with Combi-Plasmas.
The Second Sternguard is loaded with Melta

With the Combi-Weapons and Special Ammunition, they should do well.

I don't necessarily agree with the paladins being difficult to win with. But I think OP is also from your perspective.

I run hybrid IG and Paladins can walk all over my troops on the ground. With them being able to use the Stormraven to get in close or a LR to keep safe, they are tough to beat. But that is for me. I can take almost any other GK build rather easily or at least put up a good fight. But I struggle with Paladins.

If you say an army is over powered it is just because you have not really figured out how to beat them and incorporated that into you TAC list. It used to be Mech IG is OP, but now majority of all lists can take them because they are aware of the build out there. Whatever the next codex out, it will most likely be OP and people will complain. But with that change GK will take a blow and become that much easier to beat. It is a unique combination of your meta interacting with the meta of the game as a whole.

My beef with them is just cleansing flame and psyflemen dreads, extremely undercosted.

Every Codex has underpriced Units. Like I tell everyone else:
If you fell a unit is over-Powered or Under-Cost, build a 1,500-2,000 list with the OP units and look at the Model Count. You can’t judge a unit in a vacuum. Put 3 Psyflemen dreads into a Draigowing and see what you get.

Model count isn't everything either.

Run a 180 ork Greentide at a purifier spam list, and watch those mobs just vanish, doing relatively little in return.

I know i have 13 model 1,500 point Loganwing

i think of GK as the remedial kids army, its what people play that aren't good enough to win with a less forgiving army. Where your decisions are pretty cut and dry and you don't need to look for combo's or tactics. You just follow the formula and you will do well.

tgf wrote:i think of GK as the remedial kids army, its what people play that aren't good enough to win with a less forgiving army. Where your decisions are pretty cut and dry and you don't need to look for combo's or tactics. You just follow the formula and you will do well.

Alternatively you can come up with an army that you feel like playing, not following one of the set lists, and enjoy yourself and have people enjoy playing you, despite the fact you play GK?

Not everyone gravitates towards them hoping for it to be an auto-win, some enjoy the fluff, some enjoy the models, some enjoy the possibilities with the army to make things which they couldn't really do beforehand. Don't make a blanket claim that GK is for people who can't win otherwise, that may be the case in your area, and if so qualify it in that respect, steer clear of statements like that to avoid inaccuracies

Motyak is quite correct about not everyone plays them because they are the easy button. That isn't what gets on peoples nerves. Its playing against the power gamer type who is playing them just to wipe everyone he plays. That type of gamer exists in almost every gaming area too which is sad but a part of the gaming life.

The OP's train of thought was that they are the easiest army in 40k to win with because they have no weaknesses at all other than they die just as easily as Space Marines of other varities. Until you factor in that unholy Paladin blob...which cannot be equaled by anything in the other Marine Dexes. You would have to field a ludicrous amount of Death Company for Blood Angels or Thunderwolves for the Space Wolves to be able to get anywhere near the toughness of the Paladins and even then they really aren't as tough or deadly as the Draigowing.

There should be a stickied "GK ARE OP" thread. These seem to pop up every day.

But for OP, GKs are hard counter vs any marine list. Against a decent player with a competitive list, the only thing you can do to get an edge is to probably out shoot them with Orks or IG.

There isn't a single marine army that can dish out even remotely the same amount of firepower GKs can. 15 longfangs? Pfftt, child's play.
And ofc close combat vs S5 I6 is a no-no. You might as well charge into a squad of 20 genestealers wearing power armor.

I love the responses that are all "Well, durr you can just outshoot them" when the guy basically forgets that you don't have to pay points to make GK good at CC. Godly CC comes by default. You just pay points to make them slowed in shooting too.

bobamus87 wrote:
My ultimate question is: does anyone else feel the same way?

Yes for various reasons. Drastically undercosted wargear (5pts for upgrading two TL BS4 or BS5 autocannons to S8? 5pts to ignore Shaken/Stunned results 92% of the time, Purifiers that just need to get one dude into an ork mob to kill half of them off, min/maxable henchmen, etc.)

However...

I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves,

You forgot the two most important units. Grey Hunters (the best parts of CSM's and SM's, with the very powerful Counterattack on top, with a cost discount!) and Long Fangs (by far the best heavy weapon infantry unit in the game). Counterattack in and of itself is extremely potent, especially when you're usually 15% cheaper than equivalents with more attacks.

SW's are not in a terrible position by any means. Yes, GK's can be brutal and really shouldn't have made it out as they are. Neither should SW's however, shoot them down, get stuck in only against depleted units, and you should do just fine.

My biggest problem with GK is that in my experience, you have to pretty much tailor your list to taking them out (at least for those of use that still want to play our 4th edition codices). People say "You just need to shoot them down" but how many all-comers lists have enough fire power to take down a reasonable amount of knights before they crash into your lines and obliterate you? Guard can maybe pull it off, and a long fang spam might also be in a good position, but any of my standard all comers lists for either my Eldar or Chaos is going to fighting a severe uphill battle in virtually any fight against GK.

So lets say you know you're playing GK, so you prepare ahead of time. Leave the far seer at home, or maybe bring one and keep him cheap with RoW, and just bring lots of firepower, with no melee elements. Now you're gonna get it for list tailoring and being TFG.

Obviously not all knights players are going to be playing the most hardcore lists, but even a list using basically just their base infantry is going to be very rough for an all-comers list.

Hearing a SW player complain that GKs are overpowered, priceless. Once observed a game where the GK player complained about the BA feel no pain saves. Just makes me laugh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reivax26 wrote:Motyak is quite correct about not everyone plays them because they are the easy button. That isn't what gets on peoples nerves. Its playing against the power gamer type who is playing them just to wipe everyone he plays. That type of gamer exists in almost every gaming area too which is sad but a part of the gaming life..

Have one of these at the FLGS. When customers started getting into WM/H, his question, "what is the most powerful army?". When it was Dystopian wars/FSA, "What group is the most powerful?". When we started Malifaux, same thing. Then, his most over powered force got beat by somebody else, what does he do, walks out mad and annoyed that the over powered side lost. Came back later and bought what beat his group.

There is a guy at our local store who enraged so many people at our last one that a bunch of the guys from out of town said they weren't coming back. He was playing a 3 Rune Priest, 3 Longfang pack Space Wolf army and was walking around before the tournament commenting on how other peoples armies were cheesy and pointing out which ones were netlists. Then there was the blatant stalling he was doing when it was apparent that he might lose and the rules lawyering about everything. I've never wanted to hit someone so bad in my entire life.

martin74 wrote:Hearing a SW player complain that GKs are overpowered, priceless. Once observed a game where the GK player complained about the BA feel no pain saves. Just makes me laugh.

I was gonna say this, but you beat me to it.

martin74 wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:Motyak is quite correct about not everyone plays them because they are the easy button. That isn't what gets on peoples nerves. Its playing against the power gamer type who is playing them just to wipe everyone he plays. That type of gamer exists in almost every gaming area too which is sad but a part of the gaming life..

Have one of these at the FLGS. When customers started getting into WM/H, his question, "what is the most powerful army?". When it was Dystopian wars/FSA, "What group is the most powerful?". When we started Malifaux, same thing. Then, his most over powered force got beat by somebody else, what does he do, walks out mad and annoyed that the over powered side lost. Came back later and bought what beat his group.

I've known a few people like that. It's always funny to take them down.

But to answer the OP. I don't think Grey Knights are OP anymore than any of the other most recent codexes. On their own, BA, SW, DE, IG, and Newcrons can all go toe to toe without breaking a sweat. A good player can take any army and give tit for tat with GK. It's just a matter of knowing the game.

I personally don't think GK are any harder to beat than blood angels, space wolves or the IG.

BUT

At all my local stores, you see almost every player fielding a GK army when there are prizes and or league standings on the line. Also, almost all those players shelf their GK when there is a city fight, apoc or similar fun event. Then they bring out their tyranids, black templars, necrons, vanilla marines or daemons. People aren't just painting their armies in flavour-of-the-month marines, they are building a second tournament-only GK army. I also trust many of those people to actually know what they are doing, and not just following the interwebz rage.

So there has to be something about GK that eludes me as an ork player. I doubt that this amount of army-switching would be happening if GK were just as good as any other codex. Maybe GK are just best at beating other GK, and thus creating a vicious circle?

If a Daemon player goes up against the wrong Grey Knight list though its not going to matter about how good a player he is if he can't deploy on the board lol

All the complaining about 'dis is OP' and 'dat is OP' is horrible. God, the WHFB peeps are wavy more nice. They don't complain about armies with 2+ armor saves.. (WoC).

And, Ill say it once again, Grey Knights aren't Over Powered, OP.

Jidmah wrote:I personally don't think GK are any harder to beat than blood angels, space wolves or the IG.

Well that totally excuses it. If other codexes are internally imbalanced or 4e v 5e is imbalanced or there are only 4 OP dexes, then job well done, golf clap.

The highest aspiration of all gaming companies is to make it so there are roughly 25% of all their books that are superior to the rest of the armies at any given time.

Players who don't want to play those four armies should just go find something better to do until they pass the FOTM baton.

Jidmah wrote:
So there has to be something about GK that eludes me as an ork player.

Cleansing Flame? Instant death?

TedNugent wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I personally don't think GK are any harder to beat than blood angels, space wolves or the IG.

Well that totally excuses it. If other codexes are internally imbalanced or 4e v 5e is imbalanced or there are only 4 OP dexes, then job well done, golf clap.

Form an ork's view it does. I find black templars, vanilla marines and daemons quite easy to beat, while I have a hard time beating mech eldar and nidzilla lists. This has nothing at all to do with any of the codices you think are OP. Actually, a well played IG is a much harder opponent for me than GK could ever be.

Jidmah wrote:

So there has to be something about GK that eludes me as an ork player.

Cleansing Flame? Instant death?

Cleansing flame can be circumvented. Mostly by shooting purifiers dead, or simply assaulting them anyways. A player fielding a crowe list is no harder to beat than a player fielding any other army specifically tailored to kill orks.
Instant-death only changed my play style to picking Thrakka instead of a warboss. Nobz don't care about those few IDs from MEQ, GK terminators would walk all over them even without NFW.

Unless you argue that anything that doesn't die to "Moar boyz!" and "WAAAAAAGH! Charge!" is OP.

motyak wrote:

tgf wrote:i think of GK as the remedial kids army, its what people play that aren't good enough to win with a less forgiving army. Where your decisions are pretty cut and dry and you don't need to look for combo's or tactics. You just follow the formula and you will do well.

Alternatively you can come up with an army that you feel like playing, not following one of the set lists, and enjoy yourself and have people enjoy playing you, despite the fact you play GK?

Not everyone gravitates towards them hoping for it to be an auto-win, some enjoy the fluff, some enjoy the models, some enjoy the possibilities with the army to make things which they couldn't really do beforehand. Don't make a blanket claim that GK is for people who can't win otherwise, that may be the case in your area, and if so qualify it in that respect, steer clear of statements like that to avoid inaccuracies

The reason I say what I did is simple numbers. Last year at our local GT there was 1 GK player, this year 14, out of a field of 64. Now you could claim that its because it is a new dex. I think not. There were 2 necron players, last year there was 1, there was 1 nid player last year there were 3, there was 3 DE players last year there was 2. That indicates to me that the GK players that plays for fluff or like of the model is most often a WAAC, it seems the exception to the rule is the guy that has actually been playing before the integrated auto win buttons. I will say one nice thing, the guys that are WAAC are typically so used to having easy opponents that most skilled opponents can mop the floor with them. Again the data proves it out, only 3 GK players made the top 20, and only 1 in the top 10. (field of 64 with 14 total) With an ork player only a few of them this year taking first and two necron players in the top 10 one in top 5.

I guess I am trying to point out two things

1. Most GK players are the WAAC guys, not all but most.
2. WAAC guys aren't usually good enough to win even with the auto win buttons against long term skill players.

tgf wrote:Again the data proves it out, only 3 GK players made the top 20, and only 1 in the top 10. (field of 64 with 14 total)

Or that just proves that GK aren't as OP as people are saying they are. We don't know, because that's all the data we have.

tgf wrote:

motyak wrote:

tgf wrote:i think of GK as the remedial kids army, its what people play that aren't good enough to win with a less forgiving army. Where your decisions are pretty cut and dry and you don't need to look for combo's or tactics. You just follow the formula and you will do well.

Alternatively you can come up with an army that you feel like playing, not following one of the set lists, and enjoy yourself and have people enjoy playing you, despite the fact you play GK?

Not everyone gravitates towards them hoping for it to be an auto-win, some enjoy the fluff, some enjoy the models, some enjoy the possibilities with the army to make things which they couldn't really do beforehand. Don't make a blanket claim that GK is for people who can't win otherwise, that may be the case in your area, and if so qualify it in that respect, steer clear of statements like that to avoid inaccuracies

The reason I say what I did is simple numbers.

See, I don't think one GT counts as 'simple numbers' for such a blanket statement. If I was to look at the 'simple numbers' of my local GW, theres only a few GK players, none of whom have more than 1 unit of purifiers, none of whom have a draigo-paladin-libby-other gubbinz kind of list, only one of whom fields what I think is a competitive build (a SR, some terminators, some strike squads in rhinos and a dreadknight), and all of whom are reasonable players. They don't pick the GK because they need a crutch, they win some and lose some, but they don't play it because they can't win with a less forgiving army.

tgf wrote:
I guess I am trying to point out two things

1. Most GK players are the WAAC guys, not all but most.
2. WAAC guys aren't usually good enough to win even with the auto win buttons against long term skill players.

Your first point again...thats just based off your local area, the people that you see playing them.

Your second point doesn't make any sense. WAAC is, in and of itself, a poor term to use. Many of the players classified as WAAC are probably just competitive people, which is not a bad thing (some would say that you don't need to be competitive in a game of toy soldiers, and I agree to an extent, but competitiveness is also what can make games great fun, you just got to hope you are playing people within your comfort zone of competitiveness). The point where you call someone a WAAC player is when their own level of competitiveness is a certain degree (which differs from person to person) higher than the person judging them. Rules-Lawyering, Cheating, these terms can be measured (Rules lawyering to a lesser extent, it is also subjective in terms of how far they differ to you, perhaps they just really really want their games to be rules-accurate, and who is anyone to begrudge them that?), but WAAC is an angry, angry term which shouldn't be used as much as it is. It is simply a difference in how competitive players are.

Off topic: You know what would actually be interesting? A study conducted where those who call a lot of people WAAC players, and those who are often classified as WAAC players, have competitiveness measured, it'd be correlational data and so wouldn't be able to prove anything, but it'd be interesting to see if those who are often claimed to be WAAC are just very competitive, and if those who are slinging the phrase around are in fact really low in competitiveness...well, interesting to me.

Yet more naive cos based arguments. They pop up everytime.

No opp cost for those FW? What, apart from costin 25% more than a SW GH to begin with? By this same naive costing argument banshees, hardly an OP unit, would end up as 30ppm... lol

There are some bad combos that stack up well in the current meta - psybacks, dreads mainly - but you dont see crowe lists very often as theyre not that good except against bugs and *some* orks (and again, you can rework orks into TAC tht also work with purifiers. Not difficult) but dont put out enough against ig, necron and sw lists to do well

PAGK are expensive marines that die as easily as any other marine. Play on that, and you will realise that they are far from OP.

bobamus87 wrote:This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

Firstly, GK are currently the best codex. This may change in 2 weeks.

Secondly, on behalf of every C:SM, CSM, Ork, Tau, BA, Demon, DA, Eldar, SoB and Nid army out there.
Kettle, thou art black

martin74 wrote:Hearing a SW player complain that GKs are overpowered, priceless. Once observed a game where the GK player complained about the BA feel no pain saves. Just makes me laugh.

My local store has a GK player who readily complains that the only way to beat Daemons is to warp quake the entire board and auto-mishap the entire army.
His main gripes are that it's apparently impossible for GK's to kill an army that have army wide re-rollable invulnerable saves, and Daemons are utterly 'broken' because they totally nerf his force weapons!

Suffice it to say, I'm waiting with baited breath for a new Daemons book so I can show him what an actual OP Daemon army looks like! (and no, he's never played fantasy, so he's not a case of supreme butt-hurt due to that issue)

Jidmah wrote:Maybe GK are just best at beating other GK, and thus creating a vicious circle?

GK are vicious vs GK. Lots of anti psyker equipment vs an all psyker army? I6 vs I6 at the same time becoming redundant?

Also i wasnt aware IG were considered OP did i miss something???

As for my 2 pence, depends how you play them. With costing allowing, iv been trying to work mine to resemble the old Daemonhunters codex (1 GKSS, 1 GKTS and led by an inquisitor with acolyte stormtroopers and a storm raven to sub for the old valkyrie). Has it been an instant win button for me? lol hell no, iv won 1 fething game with em but i damn well have fun (also people forget another reason for buying gk, wallet will love you a little more when you can squeeze a massive amount of points out of a few boxes )

thenoobbomb wrote:All the complaining about 'dis is OP' and 'dat is OP' is horrible. God, the WHFB peeps are wavy more nice. They don't complain about armies with 2+ armor saves.. (WoC).

And, Ill say it once again, Grey Knights aren't Over Powered, OP.

Heheheh sorry man but you are way off, warriors of chaos dont have a 2+ save, they have a 4+ or 3+ with a shield, and in fantasy there are modifiers to help get rid off that.

GK are OP so are SW, both in diferent ways of course

Just so you know what i consider overpowered, if a unit is under costed for its abilites and has little to no weakness, so if wound alocation didnt exist i wouldnt consider paladins OP, as some of you said..shoot them.
Purifiers for there cost are broken, if i take a comparible unit of similer cost.. purifiers win most of the time, even against units mor expensive than themselves.
Psyfledread... 5pts...really????
But the biggest thing that breaks them is the massive amount of PW, i play DW and all my stuff have PW but at a premium cost.

DW do very well against PAGK based lists - SS are just *that* good.

It isnt the PW, its the cheap razorbacks, DCA and psyriflemen that are the biggest headaches. If you couldnt take cheap razorbacks - they shouldnt be int he list at all! - then thre would be far fewer complaints.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DW do very well against PAGK based lists - SS are just *that* good.

It isnt the PW, its the cheap razorbacks, DCA and psyriflemen that are the biggest headaches. If you couldnt take cheap razorbacks - they shouldnt be int he list at all! - then thre would be far fewer complaints.

tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

Formosa wrote:i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should)

At least be honest...
I'm assuming you mean Deathwing when you say DW.

4 TL Psy-AC shots, we'll assume all 4 hit.
Wound on 2+, 3 wounds.
You save on a 2+, maybe one termie dead.

How is that easily wiping a DW unit out a turn?

How are you losing an entire DW squad to 4 Str8 AP4 shots a turn?

Being a guard player i try to not compain about other codexes that are strong as i have vendettas, veterans, hydras and everything else, but seeing a SW player compain about GK makes me lolz.

labmouse42 wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

Firstly, GK are currently the best codex. This may change in 2 weeks.

Secondly, on behalf of every C:SM, CSM, Ork, Tau, BA, Demon, DA, Eldar, SoB and Nid army out there.
Kettle, thou art black

amen

I run a Pure Deathwing and i can beat a GK army most of the time but they do have some simply ridiculous abilities such as the abilitiy for a standard ten man squad of terminators to put out 16 s 5 shots and 8 s7 rending shots WTF. I actually played GK and had a guy beat in objectives till turn seven when he unleashed that hellstorm of fire on my last unit of terminators. (true i failed one save each and my apothecary failed to save them both but still.)

I have played GK a few times, and with two different armies, IG and Orks. With the IG I just tried to blast him with large templates from a "safe" distance away. With all those invul saves and the fact that the paladins get the 2+ against the battle cannon doesn't help the IG. The fact that he fielded three storm ravens to totaly dispose of my leman russes, all 8 of them, he just crushed me.

When using orks, I tried the true method of orks, outnumber. I field around 140 or so to his 37. He just wiped me out. With 2+,5+ with feel no pain two wound (with all wound allocation tricks) it was near impossible to even wound any of his paladins. Even orks with nobs and wound allocation tricks, it is nothing like what the GK can do.

GK are over powered. Will be until 6th comes out and does something against it. I am to the point of avoiding playing GK for numerous reasons. Mainly, almost all armies are the WAAC builds, and, the fact that every thing has a psychic power of some sort, (oh look, rolled less than a ten on 2D6), and just nullifies almost anything anyone can do.

If you have played Magic the Gathering at all, I equate playing against GK like playing against blue counterspell decks. Nothing worse than not getting to play the way your amry or deck was ment to be played.

Formosa wrote:
tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

No you dont. You pay the same as most - plus 5pts for fearless and DWA. You in fact get them a LOT cheaper than SW do, who pay 63ppm for TH SS terminators without fearless, but with CA. Additionally what does this extra pip of strength do to you at all? 125 point marine TLAC wound you on 2s just as well as their 135pt brothers in the GK codex, hit just as well to start with, so if youre complaing about psyriflemen i presume youre also complaining about standard marine ones?

If 4 shots is wiping a squad a turn, your opponent is cheating. You also DO have super cheap anti vehicles, theyre called "cyclone missile launchers" which you get in every troops unit, along with a *very* cheap HQ in Belial who, for his points is a very capable close combat master.

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martin - erm, most psychic powers are at Ld9, some LD8. Only libbies and the rarely seen GKGM will have Ld10 powers

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Formosa wrote:
tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

No you dont. You pay the same as most - plus 5pts for fearless and DWA. You in fact get them a LOT cheaper than SW do, who pay 63ppm for TH SS terminators without fearless, but with CA. Additionally what does this extra pip of strength do to you at all? 125 point marine TLAC wound you on 2s just as well as their 135pt brothers in the GK codex, hit just as well to start with, so if youre complaing about psyriflemen i presume youre also complaining about standard marine ones?

If 4 shots is wiping a squad a turn, your opponent is cheating. You also DO have super cheap anti vehicles, theyre called "cyclone missile launchers" which you get in every troops unit, along with a *very* cheap HQ in Belial who, for his points is a very capable close combat master.

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martin - erm, most psychic powers are at Ld9, some LD8. Only libbies and the rarely seen GKGM will have Ld10 powers

TH/SS spam is the hard counter to GK believe me.
thwe weakness of our Army is we lack the ability to shoot very well. we have to take Speeders and predators to do so.

captain collius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Formosa wrote:
tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

No you dont. You pay the same as most - plus 5pts for fearless and DWA. You in fact get them a LOT cheaper than SW do, who pay 63ppm for TH SS terminators without fearless, but with CA. Additionally what does this extra pip of strength do to you at all? 125 point marine TLAC wound you on 2s just as well as their 135pt brothers in the GK codex, hit just as well to start with, so if youre complaing about psyriflemen i presume youre also complaining about standard marine ones?

If 4 shots is wiping a squad a turn, your opponent is cheating. You also DO have super cheap anti vehicles, theyre called "cyclone missile launchers" which you get in every troops unit, along with a *very* cheap HQ in Belial who, for his points is a very capable close combat master.

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martin - erm, most psychic powers are at Ld9, some LD8. Only libbies and the rarely seen GKGM will have Ld10 powers

TH/SS spam is the hard counter to GK believe me.
thwe weakness of our Army is we lack the ability to shoot very well. we have to take Speeders and predators to do so.

forgive me, didnt realise DA were refused storm bolters ok il admit, GK have a +1S heavy flamer and a +1S 24" assault cannon. but we traded thaat off with our 3rd special weapon being gak (psilencer)

forgot to add the old argument of us not having the benafit of shooting anything more than 24" away with the exception of the dreadnough and there ARE other dreadnought builds that psyfle

Grey Templar wrote:If you can't figure out a way to kill very expensive T4 3+ save models they you probably should go play Warmachine.

OUCH!

Great feedback. WAAC is a pretty broad term. I use WAAC to describe all the guys I met last year that were playing SW that are now playing GK. The guys that want to win but won't put in the time. I myself am competitive player, but I refuse to rules lawyer at the table and in 16 years of tournement play have never had to call a judge to settle a dispute. I see WAAC guys as the guys that are looking for the short cut to the winners circle, unwilling to put in the time always chasing the latest and greatest but lacking experience to get it done. WAAC do not necessarily cheat but they can make the game unpleaseant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK

They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

Because we all know that straight point cost is the only valid comparison.

TedNugent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK

They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

Grey Templar wrote:How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such? When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

Tch...That's true only because you're mostly fighting models with only one wound. Fine. But it's still an entire squad of power weapons! You know...that weapon that makes space marines die CC just like Kroot do? Let's not try to white-wash this - power weapons are the great equalizer in close combat - ESPECIALLY when you hit first. In fact, this seems to be why the original poster is complaining, "GK are OP!" because as a close combat oriented SW build, he is clearly relying on that 3+ armor save. Meanwhile, 5+ and 6+ armies aren't going to feel as threatened by GK in CC (e.g. Orks).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

Regarding Purifiers, they are anti-horde, anti-MEQ, get ridiculously cheap weapon upgrades, and can strike at I6 for a pittance. They're not "fine," they're outrageous in close combat. Slaanesh CSM can't even match the initiative of a Purifier with a 2 point upgrade, and they don't even have free Power Weapons.

Purchasing one Thunder Hammer at 30 points for any other MEQ squad would more and make up for the price gap between the two, but oh, GKs get a discount on Thunder Hammers too.

Grugknuckle wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such? When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

Tch...That's true only because you're mostly fighting models with only one wound. Fine. But it's still an entire squad of power weapons! You know...that weapon that makes space marines die CC just like Kroot do? Let's not try to white-wash this - power weapons are the great equalizer in close combat - ESPECIALLY when you hit first. In fact, this seems to be why the original poster is complaining, "GK are OP!" because as a close combat oriented SW build, he is clearly relying on that 3+ armor save. Meanwhile, 5+ and 6+ armies aren't going to feel as threatened by GK in CC (e.g. Orks).

yeah, once my guardsman are in cc, i basically count them as dead and any wounds they inflict are just bonuses unless the unit is a powerblob in which case i hope that they win, but i dont use powerblobs all that often unless it is a 3000+ point game.

Not to mention, Power Weapons go straight through FNP, which makes it meaningless for CC MEQ army builds. Aside from weathering the shooting storm from the Purifiers, I mean.

bobamus87 wrote:[My biggest complaint was nothing more than, their average marine is 20pts per man ... 5 points more than a Grey hunter. It's that they are good at pretty much everything, and their only downside, isn't even that bad, in that they are slightly higher pts cost.

Holy crap dude. Have you looked at your own codex? I'm a space wolf player so I know. Grey Hunters are good at everything and they're dirt cheap at 15 points per model!

Lot's of people will say that SW are cheesy and OP. I wouldn't even necessarily disagree with them when it comes to Jaws, the price of long fangs or some of the special characters. But I will say this; I've been playing SW since the 90's and I tell you, there was a time when the space wolves were seriously out classed by almost everyone. Back then, Grey hunters were 23 points per model and your 35 point Rhino came without searchlight or smoke launcher!

When the Tau were brand new, they were considered cheesy and OP. How many people would say they are now?

Codecies come and go. Cheese comes and goes. You have to roll with the punches, know your army, know your opponent's army and play accordingly.

Grey Templar wrote:How are you losing an entire DW squad to 4 Str8 AP4 shots a turn?

Im back lol

I said "these things" meaning multiple there of and went on to say "that much shooting should" also meaning more than one lol, but its my fault for not being clear.

Nos: SW pay for the option of having alot of options, i think paying for options is silly though.

The marine TLAC dread is fairly priced for str7 shots for an extra 10pts the GK one ignores stuned/shaken results and another 5pts get str8 TLAC, its easy to get a dead a cover save adding to how tough they are. and that extra pip of str insta kills my IC

True cyclones are cheap for DW, add the price of the unit into the fold and ... 235pts to counter a 140pt model.. even i know thats bad maths.

Belial: hahahah combat master.. heheheh, i admit im lucky with good old Boblial he seems to be able to pull off crazy things his statline says he shouldnt, now if i could have a whole army of this undercosted "combat master" for that cost... well that would be broken. He is only undercosted due to the age of the book though when SS didnt give the 3++, for his stats and ability 150pts is more fair.

As to TH/SS spam doing well vs GK, im sure it does, but not all of us spam TH/SS tourney lists.

But this is DW, imagine how RW feel vs the grey knights...

And just another thought, GK Vendreads have the added advantage of having 2 of their damage results negated on a 5/6. Add a reroll to that and you essentially cannot reasonably kill them.

tgf wrote:i think of GK as the remedial kids army, its what people play that aren't good enough to win with a less forgiving army. Where your decisions are pretty cut and dry and you don't need to look for combo's or tactics. You just follow the formula and you will do well.

Exactly!

The Grey Knights are a starter army - low model count means smaller $ investment which means easier to enter the game. High cheese count means I get to win even when I don't know how to play, which means I keep playing and maybe even ... (*gasp) ... BUY MORE MODELS! Judging by how may GK lists were at Adepticon, it looks like GK is doing exactly what GW intended them to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reivax26 wrote:
The OP's train of thought was that they are the easiest army in 40k to win with because they have no weaknesses at all other than they die just as easily as Space Marines of other varities.

OMFG! Dying "just as easy as a Space Marine" is a weakness!

know how to kill them... first and foremost they only have a general 24" range. only dreads, and landraiders have better (or stormravens i suppose) so utilize that. any other marine army will have acsess to tons of missiles, lascannons, heavy bolters, plus your own dreads.

focus on: any psyflemen dreads in the game, the normal version first, as they are easier to kill, and once dead reduce his overall damage output. take out venerables next. tac squads with lazcannons work good for this, even devs or longfangs with missiles. then focus on transports. obviously stormravens are a priority, followed by razorbacks then rhinos. once those are dead, he is limited to walking, (or DS), and 24" shooting range. peg off infantry with heavy bolter, missile, lazcannon etc. for target priority on foot troops, i woud suggest termies first, followed by purifiers, then strike squads. i dont think many take interceptors, but if they are on field, they take priority, simply because they are fast.

dont charge him unless you have a massive edge in numbers or attacks, or init (7+) preferablly all 3. just sit back, shoot down his long range support first, then make him walk through your wall of fire. eventually you should be able to just bolter the crap out of his guys. and since your marines are cheaper then his, you can in theory have twice the boots on the ground. a tac squad with laz/plas combat squaded with a razorback using a twl lazcannon x 6 makes a VERY hard core for GK to counter. pack in some preds, devs or whatever else with lazcannons, or even missiles if you are low on points. take the cheapest hq you possibly can, like a naked captain. he wont do anything anyway, so keep him cheap and disposable and hiding in the backfield. a master of the forge works REALLY well. give him a beamer and bolster a ruin.

ive used that general list against all versions of GK i know of, the early "shunt putnt" style, purifers, termies, palladins, etc. its not lost yet.

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ. Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

The opportunity cost comes into play because you're paying for Power Weapons on a squad that isn't good in CC to start with. This lets other MEQ Codices outnumber the Grey Knights, and the Grey Knights do die just as easily as other Space Marines. They're essentially the "glass cannon" of Space Marines (although obviously not as fragile as for example Dark Eldar), putting loads of power (and therefore points) into being killy. It's essentially the same thing as High Elves do in WHFB; kill the enemy before they kill you, because you're going to feel every loss.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ.
Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

........huh?

No really. Huh?

....

..

huh?

You're assuming Strike Squads cost 40 points per model, I'm guessing?

Erm...Trolololol lololol, I saw the title to this thread and facepalmed

that is all

HAIL TO THE ALMIGHTY NURGLE!!!!!

tgf wrote:Great feedback. WAAC is a pretty broad term. I use WAAC to describe all the guys I met last year that were playing SW that are now playing GK. The guys that want to win but won't put in the time. I myself am competitive player, but I refuse to rules lawyer at the table and in 16 years of tournement play have never had to call a judge to settle a dispute. I see WAAC guys as the guys that are looking for the short cut to the winners circle, unwilling to put in the time always chasing the latest and greatest but lacking experience to get it done. WAAC do not necessarily cheat but they can make the game unpleaseant.

Ah, if thats how you are using it then theres no issue, I just dislike the term as it is often used, a slur on someone more competitive.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ. Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

I decided to check your math (nothing personal, I always double check math), and for one thing, you've somehow managed to sneak in twice as many points for the black templar, said squad also impossible and would be unable to kill 4 MEQ. 12 initiates would only be able to kill an average of 3 MEQ on the charge, 10 initiates and 4 Neopytes with CCW and bolt pistol which is legal would kill 3.1 MEQs. They would also lack bolters or frag grenades

You also forgot Hammerhand, boosting the SS kills to 3.3~, where as the 6 initiates only take out 1.5. And this is ignoring the SS storm bolters or the initiate's bolt pistols, which is an obvious conclusion.

The ork comparison just doesn't work, because the GK don't need to get into assault with them because having an 24" assault 2 weapon mean you can just kite the mob

I think I see why GK don't give me as much trouble - all the other marines seem to be enraged about the vast amounts power weapons, which are nothing but a minor nuisance to me

Luke_Prowler wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ. Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

I decided to check your math (nothing personal, I always double check math), and for one thing, you've somehow managed to sneak in twice as many points for the black templar, said squad also impossible and would be unable to kill 4 MEQ. 12 initiates would only be able to kill an average of 3 MEQ on the charge, 10 initiates and 4 Neopytes with CCW and bolt pistol which is legal would kill 3.1 MEQs. They would also lack bolters or frag grenades

You also forgot Hammerhand, boosting the SS kills to 3.3~, where as the 6 initiates only take out 1.5. And this is ignoring the SS storm bolters or the initiate's bolt pistols, which is an obvious conclusion.

The ork comparison just doesn't work, because the GK don't need to get into assault with them because having an 24" assault 2 weapon mean you can just kite the mob

Oh Derp, I assumed the previous math about the attacks were for a full 10 of Strike Squads, not 5. Ignore what I said, Grey Knight Strike Squads kill around 6 MEQ on the charge if there's 10 of them. The question is, though, who runs a squad without special weapons? Those remove PW attacks.

And of course the Ork comparison works, we're talking about how effective the units are in CC. I also just now realized I failed on the Ork maths, they put down 8 MEQ on the charge without a Nob with PC.

The point isn't that a 12-man Black Templars squad without neophytes is illegal, the point is that the Black Templars get more bodies over the Grey Knights. Those 40 points per strike squad (without upgrades!) add up. A Land Speeder Typhoon, for example, is only 70 points. The same is true for other armies as well. Let's compare a 10-man Strike Squad charging a 10-man Grey Hunter squad, for example:

(Assume that Hammerhand works all the time, for a worst-case scenario)

21 PW attacks from the GKs, 10.5 hits, 7.75 wounds, 7.5 rounded to 8 dead Grey Hunters. 10 Grey Hunters still get to swing back, 30 attacks with counter-attack, 15 hits, 7,5 wounds. That's 2.5 wounds, so it could swing either way, assume 2 for worst-case scenario. The Grey Knights have just wiped out 8 Grey Hunters and taken 2 losses themselves. Quite good, but for a 200-point unit on the charge against a 150-point unit that damn well better be the case. Let's examine the reverse situation, where the Grey Knights get charged:

30 attacks from the GHs, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 3 GKs die. GKs swing, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 3.666 rounded to 4 dead. Will the Grey Hunters lose in the end? Yes, but they damn well should, seeing as they're 50 points cheaper.

Now, let's compare the Grey Knights against a horde of 30 Shoota Boyz with a PK Nob, assuming the Grey Knights get the charge:

21 PW attacks, 10.5 hits, 7.75 wounds rounded to 8 dead Boyz. Nob takes a wound so only 7 die. 22 Boyz attack, 44 attacks, 22 hits, 7.3 wounds, 2 dead Grey Knights. PK swings, 3 attacks, 1.5 wounds, 2 dead Knights. Orks kill 4, Grey Knights do 8 wounds, Orks lose a further 4 Boyz to fearless.

Round 2: Grey Knights attack, 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 2.333 rounded to 2 kills. Orks swing back, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 5 wounds, 2 dead Knights. PK kills one. Orks win combat and will eventually win by wipeout unless the Grey Knights manage to run away.

In conclusion, and I believe this is the real crux: Grey Knights do well against armies that rely on strong armour saves to keep them safe in close combat (read: Space Marines). Since Space Marines are the most widely played Codices, people are upset that their armies are being countered by Grey Knights and that they can't just charge into combat with them and smash them to a pulp (which they still can if they bring equivalent amounts of Marines points-wise, assuming no Psychotroke Grenades). I say this as a Black Templars player, who would like nothing better than charging into close combat and smashing things to a pulp.

TL;DR: Grey Knights counter Space Marines the hardest, Space Marine players don't like this.

TBH the thing I find most ridiculous about GK is that they are better at fighting psykers than Daemons. All their special gear (psych out grenades, the silly stormraven missiles, and so on) only give them an edge against psykers, and the daemon codex has no psychic powers. It's just ironic.
not to say that they're not good against daemons, just that they're even better against psykers.
God, I need to sober up.

yep GK are op but not as bad as SW

deathholydeath wrote:TBH the thing I find most ridiculous about GK is that they are better at fighting psykers than Daemons. All their special gear (psych out grenades, the silly stormraven missiles, and so on) only give them an edge against psykers, and the daemon codex has no psychic powers. It's just ironic.
not to say that they're not good against daemons, just that they're even better against psykers.
God, I need to sober up.

That's mostly because they decided to give them all the special stuff from ALL the ordo chapters...Just be glad they didn't get more Ordo Xeno's stuff on their main troops.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TL;DR: Grey Knights counter Space Marines the hardest, Space Marine players don't like this.

I would like nothing more than to play an Ork army, but the cheery thing there is Cleansing Flame. Nothing warms your heart like a third of your low armor save models disappearing after crawling through withering Purifier shooting. Lo! Here comes I6 and I4, on time, to follow the initial abuse. Okay, okay, so what if I take 'Ard Boyz! 'Ard Boyz don't get hit nearly as hard from Cleansing Flame owait Power Weapons at I6 lolol oh and Psycannons and Autocannons ignore your armor saves, whoopie.

But suppose!

If Horde units won't work, perhaps I can use an Elite unit. I need small, power brick units. A flamer may be good against boyz, but not as much against Nobz. Owait, lol, instant death from Force Weapons that bypass the 2+ armor save?

Okay, how about Nobz? Strength 8 shooting that bypasses FNP and instant kills. Whoopdie doo, and once I get into CC with the Purifiers they ignore my FNP and they can instant death on a force activation.

Okay, so I can't assault them, so I need to outshoot GKs? With Orks? Not only is that unfluffy, but it requires a complete reworking of my army list and it requires me to retire several HQ choices.

Why don't Orks have any psychic defense again?

A competent player should do much better with the GK codex than most of the others IMHO. That said there are other just as powerful builds within the SW, Mech BA, IG and DE codexs. It's just that the GK codex seems to have more of these builds to play around with, if your average joe blow turned up at the table he is more likely to be fielding some of these powerful combos since they are more prevalent throughout the codex.

I used to play a DoA BA army based on assault marines within tourneys but it got pushed out the window by the GK codex. I'm not angry about this... builds come and go, the meta changes, the game would be come very stagnant without this. As time passes I'm sure the GK will be taking a back seat to something else.

Seven Nobz on the charge kill ten Purifiers more often than not. If you only cause one unsaved wound for every six attacks, you are not causing that many instant deathes.
"Fluff" and "I need to rework my army!!!" is hardly an argument. You need to "rework" your army to be able to handle necron AV13 spam, too. If you weren't bringing a kff, kanz, battlewagons, buggies, koptaz, or shoota boyz already, you were building bad lists anyways. If you are not using a competitive list, everything is overpowered.

hmm isnt the math(S) more like 5 dead nobs if purifiers charge (just with I6 halberds no hammerhand or flame) thats 10 wounds... thats just plain stupid as nobs pay a hella lot for that extra wound (comnpared to a boy) and GK pay next to nothing for the FW.

I Blame GD for allowing this idiotic codex to exist, same with the space wolves.... infact i havent really liked any of 5th ED codex design (except newcrons and Deldar) in 3rd it was "barely enough is ok" 4th was "less is more" 5th is "More is more" hopefully 6th will be "enough is enough" lol

Jidmah wrote:Seven Nobz on the charge kill ten Purifiers more often than not. If you only cause one unsaved wound for every six attacks, you are not causing that many instant deathes.
"Fluff" and "I need to rework my army!!!" is hardly an argument. You need to "rework" your army to be able to handle necron AV13 spam, too. If you weren't bringing a kff, kanz, battlewagons, buggies, koptaz, or shoota boyz already, you were building bad lists anyways. If you are not using a competitive list, everything is overpowered.

Within a certain extent. If there are only a few competitive lists, particularly fluffy ones, then they're writing bad Codexes.

But I digress.

Seven Nobs cannot shoot, are not Fearless, and each instant death, as unlikely as it is, provides twice as much impact to combat resolution. Alongside this, you have the cheery proposition of a Dreadnought which can deliver 4 TL S8 shots which instant kill and reduce you to a mere 5+ save per model, producing a rather distressing number of casualties per turn. While being able to win an isolated assault phase against an equal cost Purifier unit with any degree of consistency is an unusual luxury compared to the comparable violence a Boyz unit will sustain, it is no substitute for the versatility, and more importantly, the capacity to shoot that Purifiers have that Nobs lack.

Which is more generally the angle of the critique I have been making. A Purifier squad can instant death multiwound models in cc, has an accessible and brainless anti-horde, or in the case of none of the above, can Hammerhand for good measure. Why, then, do they get Thunder Hammers at a 25 point discount?

Ive accidently had some luck against draigowing
That was more because i got fed up of everyone playing DE and started running fex's with 2 TL dev's.
Had a game after DE on night and realised the old saying was true enough.
"Sheer force, if its not working, your not using enough"

Long story short, each fex was putting out 12 shots a turn.
9 hits due to being TL.
7.5 wounds.
People will die, more so when i have 9 MC's in a list able to do this.
Just a case of keeping some distance as FW's and MC's dont mix all that well.

Granted Orks get a bad deal from this, but as do the daemons that i play.
Orks actually have high volumes of shooting when they need it though.

But alas, with each new army the game changes a bit, just a case of getting used to it and swapping your list around.
Which to be honest, i like.
The same list for 5 or so years would get boring.

TedNugent wrote:
They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

So, you think banshees should be 30ppm then? You dont seem to understand opp cost, at all. Makes your entire hyperbole ridden argument null and void.

You dont understand that when you MUST pay for an "upgrade" in every model you get that at a discount to a true option. That is universal. Its why TH/SS WG cost more than vanilla termies- because you get the luxury of having a lot of flexibility with the unit. So that 20ppm that dies as easily as any other marine? Thats a fair price. A1 each vs A2 GH for a start

Then onto your idea that shootas dont do so well...you do realise their shooting outdoes marine shooting, yes? They can wander forwards under a KFF bubble, happily shooting your squad, while taking far less in points cost in casualties in return. Then fleet and assault when they want to.

Your issue seems to be that you lose to GKs, and so think theyre OP. Are they tricky to play against? Yes. Are they a top tier army? With the right buiild - yes. Like most armies. But so are necrons. So are IG. So are SW.

Orks do really, really well against TAC GK lists (you know, the real GT lists, not your perfect counter to everything made up lists) due to sheer weight of attacks. You wave in against purifiers, expecting to lose bodies but you will take them down in the end - and you have bodies to spare.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

So, you think banshees should be 30ppm then? You dont seem to understand opp cost, at all. Makes your entire hyperbole ridden argument null and void.

You dont understand that when you MUST pay for an "upgrade" in every model you get that at a discount to a true option. That is universal. Its why TH/SS WG cost more than vanilla termies- because you get the luxury of having a lot of flexibility with the unit. So that 20ppm that dies as easily as any other marine? Thats a fair price. A1 each vs A2 GH for a start

Then onto your idea that shootas dont do so well...you do realise their shooting outdoes marine shooting, yes? They can wander forwards under a KFF bubble, happily shooting your squad, while taking far less in points cost in casualties in return. Then fleet and assault when they want to.

Your issue seems to be that you lose to GKs, and so think theyre OP. Are they tricky to play against? Yes. Are they a top tier army? With the right buiild - yes. Like most armies. But so are necrons. So are IG. So are SW.

Orks do really, really well against TAC GK lists (you know, the real GT lists, not your perfect counter to everything made up lists) due to sheer weight of attacks. You wave in against purifiers, expecting to lose bodies but you will take them down in the end - and you have bodies to spare.

Orks do well against unfocused, bit-of-everything GK lists that NOBODY uses in semi-serious games and above.

Ork shooting does not outdo marine shooting. Not by a long shot, so to speak. Worse range, harder targets, and most importantly, WAY worse weapons, having no melta or lascannon equivalent to deal with the truly high AV choices. KFF is good but it's barely enough to keep the army viable, and usually requires spamming either battlewagons or killa kans to offer true resiliency. Against the famed psyrifleman, those will -not- be enough. It's basic math.

Banshees should not be 30 ppm. GK should be priced taking into account their actual perks and the options they can access, or start losing those perks. I know it's not going to happen; its just food for thought.

TedNugent wrote:They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

This logic is incorrect. You don't pay upgrade costs for basic abilities. If that were true, howling banshees with fleet, 2 PWs, the banshees mask and shuriken pistol would have a net cost of -7 points, allows you to gain 70 points to your army by fielding 10 of them. Their bad, but not that bad!

TedNugent wrote:In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Trust me, the GH is just fine for a troops choice, and has no place bitching when comparing them to strike squads. The GH has the following advantages
* Free special weapon if their 10 man in size
* Cheaper initial special weapon
* Counter attack
* Acute sense (handy in a night-fight Necron environment)
* Extra hand weapon
* Wolf Banner (an extremely nice force multiplier)
* Ability to bury a CSM terminator in the squad
If you want to compare the strike squads to C:SM TAC squads, Ill buy what your selling -- but comparing them to the most point-effective MEQ TAC squad is not really a good point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:Orks do well against unfocused, bit-of-everything GK lists that NOBODY uses in semi-serious games and above

Are you saying orks can't do well vs GK?

Doug Johnson got to the game 6 winner bracket at Adepticon with his orks. He did not lose to GK, but lost to necrons.
http://www.adepticon.org/

I would wager that the ork codex today does not suck nearly as much as it did when leafblower lists were the mainstream.

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TL;DR: Grey Knights counter Space Marines the hardest, Space Marine players don't like this.

I would like nothing more than to play an Ork army, but the cheery thing there is Cleansing Flame. Nothing warms your heart like a third of your low armor save models disappearing after crawling through withering Purifier shooting. Lo! Here comes I6 and I4, on time, to follow the initial abuse. Okay, okay, so what if I take 'Ard Boyz! 'Ard Boyz don't get hit nearly as hard from Cleansing Flame owait Power Weapons at I6 lolol oh and Psycannons and Autocannons ignore your armor saves, whoopie.

But suppose!

If Horde units won't work, perhaps I can use an Elite unit. I need small, power brick units. A flamer may be good against boyz, but not as much against Nobz. Owait, lol, instant death from Force Weapons that bypass the 2+ armor save?

Okay, how about Nobz? Strength 8 shooting that bypasses FNP and instant kills. Whoopdie doo, and once I get into CC with the Purifiers they ignore my FNP and they can instant death on a force activation.

Okay, so I can't assault them, so I need to outshoot GKs? With Orks? Not only is that unfluffy, but it requires a complete reworking of my army list and it requires me to retire several HQ choices.

Why don't Orks have any psychic defense again?

A 30-man Shoota Boy mob with PK Nob will, on average, beat a 10-man Purifier squad (assuming 4 Psycannons and a hammer) on the charge, while losing if they get charged. Orks already lose when charged by most things, so that should be nothing new.

The same Purifier squad is going to kill an average of 4 Nobz and do 1 wound if charged by the Nobz. Assuming that the Nobz have 3 Klawz, they will kill 5 purifiers with the Klaws alone.

Conclusion: Force Weapons counter multi-wound models. Who would've thunk it? Meanwhile, 15 Burna templates kill 26ppm Purifiers just as good as they kill 15ppm Grey Hunters, as do Lootas, Killa Kanz, and Rokkits. Emperor help the Purifiers if Ghazghkull
decides to show up...

labmouse42 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

This logic is incorrect. You don't pay upgrade costs for basic abilities. If that were true, howling banshees with fleet, 2 PWs, the banshees mask and shuriken pistol would have a net cost of -7 points, allows you to gain 70 points to your army by fielding 10 of them. Their bad, but not that bad!

TedNugent wrote:In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Trust me, the GH is just fine for a troops choice, and has no place bitching when comparing them to strike squads. The GH has the following advantages
* Free special weapon if their 10 man in size
* Cheaper initial special weapon
* Counter attack
* Acute sense (handy in a night-fight Necron environment)
* Extra hand weapon
* Wolf Banner (an extremely nice force multiplier)
* Ability to bury a CSM terminator in the squad
If you want to compare the strike squads to C:SM TAC squads, Ill buy what your selling -- but comparing them to the most point-effective MEQ TAC squad is not really a good point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:Orks do well against unfocused, bit-of-everything GK lists that NOBODY uses in semi-serious games and above

Are you saying orks can't do well vs GK?

Doug Johnson got to the game 6 winner bracket at Adepticon with his orks. He did not lose to GK, but lost to necrons.
http://www.adepticon.org/

I would wager that the ork codex today does not suck nearly as much as it did when leafblower lists were the mainstream.

I wish every codex was written like orks, they have the best written codex of the lot

Formosa wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How are you losing an entire DW squad to 4 Str8 AP4 shots a turn?

Im back lol

I said "these things" meaning multiple there of and went on to say "that much shooting should" also meaning more than one lol, but its my fault for not being clear.

Nos: SW pay for the option of having alot of options, i think paying for options is silly though.

The marine TLAC dread is fairly priced for str7 shots for an extra 10pts the GK one ignores stuned/shaken results and another 5pts get str8 TLAC, its easy to get a dead a cover save adding to how tough they are. and that extra pip of str insta kills my IC

True cyclones are cheap for DW, add the price of the unit into the fold and ... 235pts to counter a 140pt model.. even i know thats bad maths.

Belial: hahahah combat master.. heheheh, i admit im lucky with good old Boblial he seems to be able to pull off crazy things his statline says he shouldnt, now if i could have a whole army of this undercosted "combat master" for that cost... well that would be broken. He is only undercosted due to the age of the book though when SS didnt give the 3++, for his stats and ability 150pts is more fair.

As to TH/SS spam doing well vs GK, im sure it does, but not all of us spam TH/SS tourney lists.

But this is DW, imagine how RW feel vs the grey knights...

just some notes
1. I only spam TH/SS against GK (havent played tournaments)
2.My ravenwing crys when facing them.
3. SHHHHHHHHHH SILENCE YOU FEWL DON"T LET THEM KNOW HOW GOOD HE IS OR THEY WILL NERF HIM. Ohhh but he is pretty fething awesome for 130 pts.

I think what happened is that Matt Ward couldnt win a single game of 40k, so invented the new GK so he could win.

Sephyr - odd, having seen a number of Ork players beat focussed GT level GK lists, I have to say your comment is flat out wrong.

Try the maths. A single tac squad, 10 man, is beaten round after round by an ork shoot boy mob in shooting. Every round. 18" assault 2 and rolling 60 dice (or more) a round does that. again, your statement is factually incorrect

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sephyr - odd, having seen a number of Ork players beat focussed GT level GK lists, I have to say your comment is flat out wrong.

Try the maths. A single tac squad, 10 man, is beaten round after round by an ork shoot boy mob in shooting. Every round. 18" assault 2 and rolling 60 dice (or more) a round does that. again, your statement is factually incorrect

In a tourny setting your prob right nos, but in a normal friendly enviroment it doesnt work this way normally as a take all comers list for orks doesnt match up well vs most of the grey knight lists out there, but i concede this is only in my local meta, yours may be diferent.

about the tac sqaud you are spot on though, i play shooty orks and they can be absolutely devestating, played 2 space wolf pod armies with a mate who was Tau and after i shot he didnt have much else to shoot at lol, circumstantial i know but hella funny

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, you think banshees should be 30ppm then? You dont seem to understand opp cost, at all. Makes your entire hyperbole ridden argument null and void.

I'm afraid it doesn't.

And your example itself is hyperbole. A EEQ is not an MEQ, first of all, and statlines have a legitimate impact on cost. Which is why I actually had the integrity to compare MEQs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont understand that when you MUST pay for an "upgrade" in every model you get that at a discount to a true option.

How do you know what I understand and don't understand.

I realize that there is a difference in terms of distributed cost. I've run the math on per model Stormshield upgrades versus per unit Stormshields. The question is what is the cost relative to the benefit. Are you really gaining so much just from being able to select which models will get chainswords and power swords? You're not getting into the nitty gritty, and that's what I began with. You're cheapening the conversation. Give me some depth. You've already begun with the ridiculous idea that I don't understand opportunity cost. It was assumed in my analysis. If you have an objection, raise it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That is universal. Its why TH/SS WG cost more than vanilla termies- because you get the luxury of having a lot of flexibility with the unit. So that 20ppm that dies as easily as any other marine? Thats a fair price. A1 each vs A2 GH for a start

Marines die easily?

20 ppm versus the indirect cost of upgrades? You seem to be unwilling to do the math here, so evidently I'm going to have to do it for you.

Yes, GH's do have an advantage in two respects - 1, Counter Attack, which is a legitimate and fierce USR. Two, they each have Boltguns and Bolt Pistols which allows very nearly the same flexibility as Storm Bolters with better CC results. They also synergize with Power Weapons, so the yield per weapon is going to be more substantial.

Note, however, GH's have one base attack - not two, in spite of the above notes. They also have no Sergeant, and this is huge. In a TAC squad, as much as they suck, at least I know when I'm putting a Power Sword on the Sergeant, it's a no brainer - base 2 attacks and a pistol, for a total of 3 power weapon attacks, no charge, for 15 points? But each GH model will see greater benefit than a basic Tac Marine for each additional PS. That's worth noting. Each GH model, with Counter-Attack, can sit back, rapid fire, and because he has a pistol, he can get charged and still attack with 3 Power Weapons per model. That reduces a lot of friction. I doubt a lot of GH players realize this.

So at 15PPM, let's say I buy 10 GH. Let's ignore SW for a strict CC analysis. That's 150, so I can get 2 PS for a net cost of 180 relative to 180 for 9 GKSS.

Assuming GH charge:


e.g. GH win by ~ 2 models

GK charge

e.g. GKSS wins with approx 3.5 models

e.g. GKSS outperform GH by a slight margin against MEQs in CC, whereas GH will probably handily outperform GKSS against low armor save models.

I would still rate GH as better in CC, but in the margins. So, cost-for-cost, do we need more bodies and a couple of <12" range SWs, or DS and better 24" range shooting. Also worth noting is Warp Quake and in particular, the fact that you can buy an entire GKSS with a Thunder Hammer for nearly the same cost as a Power Fist on a GH squad. GKSS also has Combat Squads which can add some essential versatility. So I don't really buy this cost argument. This is considering the fact that GHs are one of the most versatile and cost effective troop MEQs in -any- Codex.

Realistically, you could match the cost effectiveness and versatility of a GH squad with GKSS, -and- have Deep Strike to boot. I don't see how this adds up. Maybe you can help me?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then onto your idea that shootas dont do so well...you do realise their shooting outdoes marine shooting, yes? They can wander forwards under a KFF bubble, happily shooting your squad, while taking far less in points cost in casualties in return. Then fleet and assault when they want to.

Shootas do fine, when they're shooting infantry. It's when they have to deal with Cleansing Flame that it all goes to complete !@#$. That's in addition to the fact that they can't efficiently injure vehicles, and have a 6" range deficit against GKs.

One round of CC with a 19 man unit against 5 Purifiers:

Combat Res: Boyz lose combat by an astonishing 6 wounds, losing Fearless and thereby needing to pass a Leadership test at Ld 3. That's -with- a charge. Even with a Boss pole, do you seriously expect to win that?

The other astonishing thing is when you're taking 30% wounds on every model + 2 wounds at each 5 man Purifier unit before you even strike a blow, whatever margin you would conceivably win combat by would be a loss on the next assault, so however many boys you have left are effectively incapable of any further meaningful assault moves against Purifier units, so each unit of Boyz has one meaningful assault move per game. Likewise, Cleansing Flame scales to the number of Boyz, so go nuts, get a 30 man unit and assault a 5 man unit of Purifiers. You will wipe it out. What now? Now another 5 man unit of Purifiers can destroy your remaining unit of Boyz to a man before you strike a blow. That's why 5 man units of Purifiers are so effective, it multiplies the number of Cleansing Flame casts and forces you to split your assaults.

Do you even need to see what happens when Purifiers Assault? I mean, I know it's convenient to forget that they're equipped entirely with Assault weapons, but just for giggles:

Boyz lose combat by ten wounds, sinking beneath Fearless and forced to take a leadership test at - 0? Boss pole? Anyone?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your issue seems to be that you lose to GKs, and so think theyre OP.

Yeah, that's what it is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:With the right buiild - yes.

With the right build? There's only one? I wonder which one that is. They all look pretty solid to me.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Orks do really, really well against TAC GK lists (you know, the real GT lists, not your perfect counter to everything made up lists) due to sheer weight of attacks. You wave in against purifiers, expecting to lose bodies but you will take them down in the end - and you have bodies to spare.

I didn't realize that a naked Strike Squad was a "perfect counter to everything" list.

Nor did I realize that a 5 man 2 Halberd 2 Psycannon 1 NFH was a made up list.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Justin-Cooks-Grey-Knights-4th-Seed-Adepticon-2012.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Dave-Ankarlos-Grey-Knights-12th-Seed-Adepticon.pdf

PS, you do realize that Cleansing Flame happily scales to the number of bodies you throw at it? Do you realize that a single Knight of the Flame, if still alive, can cast Cleansing Flame and inflict ~13 wounds on a 30 man strong unit of Boyz?

BTW, Purifiers -are- the perfect counter to everything. They scale well to any AV value -- AV 10, 11, 12, and 14, they have Cleansing Flame against Horde armies, 2 base attacks and S5 Power Weapons against MEQs, and instant death sticks for multi wound models. So if you want to talk about cost effectiveness or efficiency per point spent, Purifiers give a fabulous value, which further mitigates their low model count.

I would hope that Purifiers are really killy for their points. they cost alot.

The way I run them is in units of 10 with 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, and 4 psycannons in a Rhino. Its 295 points for 10 T4 3+ save models. That's alot of points in something that is no more durable then a Tac squad.

How hard is it to kill 10 tactical marines?


And lets remember that to take these guys as Troops I use up an HQ slot. That means at best I can beef one squad with Grenades OR psychic powers(GM vs Librarian) I'm not taking a Techmarine because I need my Elite slots for Psyfledreds.

Grey Templar wrote:I would hope that Purifiers are really killy for their points. they cost alot.

The way I run them is in units of 10 with 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, and 4 psycannons in a Rhino. Its 295 points for 10 T4 3+ save models. That's alot of points in something that is no more durable then a Tac squad.

True, but Tac squads are red herrings anyway; There's nothing gained from shooting Tac squads - you'd have to drill thru 8 Bolter MEQs before you hit something important.

And even that considered, a Tac squad costs you 170 for 10m, the Rhino costs you 35, so 205 points with a Missile. Add a Lascannon to compete with the Psycannon and sit at home field - that's 10 points - add a Power Fist to compete with your Daemon Hammer, that's 25 points. Give the squad a Flamer to compete with your Cleansing Flame - more or less, but then you don't have any SW for AV. Anyway, that's a moderately effective squad at 240 points, or 205 points if you were going bargain bin to babysit home plate.

Grey Templar wrote:
And lets remember that to take these guys as Troops I use up an HQ slot. That means at best I can beef one squad with Grenades OR psychic powers(GM vs Librarian) I'm not taking a Techmarine because I need my Elite slots for Psyfledreds.

That's a fair point, but I would argue that the more Purifiers and Psyfleman Dreads, the better, so I would content that the greater loss is the 150 points for a mediocre/sucky HQ.

I will acknowledge the Crowe tax and I think it will serve for a more complete tally of a GK list's limitations.

Thats another thing.

With Tac squads I'm losing bolter boys who are literally only useful as ablative wounds.

With Purifiers I'm kinda stuck. Do I get rid of Halberds or my Psycannon caddies. Everyone costs alot of points and is useful.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats another thing.

With Tac squads I'm losing bolter boys who are literally only useful as ablative wounds.

With Purifiers I'm kinda stuck. Do I get rid of Halberds or my Psycannon caddies. Everyone costs alot of points and is useful.

Very true.

At least you have 6 models to remove before you start pulling Psycannons.

And at least you don't have to buy 8 useless models just to field them

Except thats just it.

Do I pull Halberd dudes and lower my melee ability or do I pull psycannons and lower my shooting ability?

Hey...i got something surprising to say... i beat a 2000 point GK army...with Tau. Yep. Tau. The wimpy blue fish people from the Eastern Fringe. 9 Crisis Suits with 2 plasma rifles apiece handled any marine not in a transport, 3 broadsides handled ALL the transports, and then killed the surviving marines with the help of a pair of 6 man fire warriors squads, two six man stealth teams handled the AC and Psi-spamming dreads, and my Ionhead took down the Stormraven my opponent as counting on to turn the tide of the battle. I took major casualties, but still pulled it out by turn 6

Purifiers are the perfect counter to everything?More hyperbolic nonsense.

You've devolved to the same level of anti gk as most on here, out

Blaze - yep, tau win the 120 man uk Indy gt thIs year, they do well at the current meta, only really suffering with missions where they have to advance and hold

nosferatu1001 wrote:Purifiers are the perfect counter to everything?More hyperbolic nonsense.

You've devolved to the same level of anti gk as most on here, out

Blaze - yep, tau win the 120 man uk Indy gt thIs year, they do well at the current meta, only really suffering with missions where they have to advance and hold

Yeah being a perfect counter is not right, they are a good counter to almost everything.

I have noticed on here alot of people talk about how the SB beating orks shootas etc... why hasnt anyone noted the psycannon?

im pretty new to gaming but i understand that if you have SM Scouts with snipers and camo cloaks high up in a building they could do some dmg against grey knights

bobamus87 wrote: I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves...

I have to say I am laughing at this line a lot...there a lot of cheesy aspects in the Space Wolves book and most of them do *not* revolve around Thunderwolves. Really??

As for GKs yep they are annoying. Yep they are new kids on the block and have some special abilites, but there are really just overpriced space marines. In your example you charged a unit that is designed to draw in targets for hand to hand. If you had shot the heck out of them with your non-cheesy (yeah, hahahaha) long fangs you would have wiped them out without breaking a sweat. Live and learn and you will deal with them fine. Space wolf army with multiple land raiders on the table and I do find it interesting that you are complaining that your opponent's GK force was unbalanced or crazy. Pot, meet the kettle.

Skriker

TedNugent wrote:Note, however, GH's have one base attack - not two, in spite of the above notes. They also have no Sergeant, and this is huge. In a TAC squad, as much as they suck, at least I know when I'm putting a Power Sword on the Sergeant, it's a no brainer - base 2 attacks and a pistol, for a total of 3 power weapon attacks, no charge, for 15 points? But each GH model will see greater benefit than a basic Tac Marine for each additional PS. That's worth noting. Each GH model, with Counter-Attack, can sit back, rapid fire, and because he has a pistol, he can get charged and still attack with 3 Power Weapons per model. That reduces a lot of friction. I doubt a lot of GH players realize this.

You missed a few other points in your comparison.

* The wolf standard is an excellent force multiplier. It increases your chance to hit/wound from 50% to 58% on the first round of combat.

* 10 GH get a free special weapon. They also get their first special weapon 5pts cheaper than other MEQ codex's. Unlike GK or BA, the SW still gets 3 attacks on the (counter)charge with a special weapon.

* If they don't mind footslogging, you can throw a wolf guard in terminator armor and a PF/SB in your squad for 42 points.

* In a 10 man GKSS, your going to have 2 psycannons. Thats 2 fewer force weapon attacks.

* Your GK justicar can take a master crafted demon hammer for 15 points.

I think the reason people call GKs cheesy is because they thought they could use the same tactic they used elsewhere. They assume their melee unit can take them out.

If you charge any multi-wound unit into a Halberd squard you deserve to lose. GKs eat multi-wound units for breakfast.


Its the same reason you wouldn't use a Land Raider to tank shock a sqaud with a Meltagun off an objective. If you send anything into its hard counter of course its going to die.

Purifiers are a good CC unit because they can take on elite and horde in equal measure while also being decently shooty.

However their vulnerability is that they are less durable point for point then other units. A kitted out unit is almost twice as expensive as a full Tac squad for absolutly no increase in durability.

So shoot them, shoot them dead.

You know, nobz actually do fine vs. purifiers, if they get the charge. Yeah, you're going to lose a few more nobz, but the purifiers cost a lot, and you generally get your money's worth. 7 allocated nobz can handle a ten-man purifier squad. They kill all the purifiers on the charge, and get whittled down to a 5-man allocated squad, which, in turn, can take down a 5 man squad of purifers (again, assuming the nobz get the charge) Of course, there are a ton of variables here, the nobz can get shot, the purifiers might be in cover so you lose int, the nobz might lose the charge and get krumped, but it's far from the whole "Oh, if you charge the purifiers with those nobz, they will just insta-kill you an you will auto-lose." The squad leader has a hammer, which will cause the same amount of kills as sergents with pf, so nothing changes there, and then almost half of the squad doesn't have force weapons due to psycannons.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the reason people call GKs cheesy is because they thought they could use the same tactic they used elsewhere. They assume their melee unit can take them out.

I call GK's cheesy because I can't even deploy a single model in my army half the time...

Warp Quake = most broken ability in the game.
Thanks Ward for shelving my entire freaking army!!!

Grey Knights in and of themselves aren't broken; the issues are as follows:

a) They're a relatively new army, so people haven't figured out the tricks to squashing them yet.

b) They were written with very few 'bad' units in their Codex. Every rulebook has got a few units that don't measure up and are infrequently seen in competitive lists (Rangers, Support Weapon Platforms for the Eldar, Sky Rays, Sniper Drones for the Tau, Whirlwinds, Scout Bikes, Techmarines, and the Legion of the Damned for Codex Marines, etc.), the Grey Knights don't suffer from this problem. I could make a list using Purgators, regular PAGKs, regular Terminators, no psycannons at all, and do just fine.

c) Their individual soldiers are somewhat more powerful than anyone else's. Compare: Regular Tactical Marine to tactical Grey Knight: Identical statline, the GK gets a slightly better gun and a Force Weapon, the GK can Deep Strike, the GK doesn't get the two-weapon bonus attack, the GK squad has more and more versatile heavy weaponry, and the squad can use a psychic power to make themselves stronger. For only +4pts a model? Woo! Great deal!

However, consider:

a) Tricks to counter hated GK powers/weapons/units exist. Shadow in the Warp and Runes of Warding shut down their psychic tricks relatively effectively, Mind War can drop Apothecaries, TH/SS Terminators can stall GK power weapons pretty much indefinitely. Grey Knights don't have a lot that can handle long-ranged enemies, deploy far back and drop ordnance templates/plasma cannons on them. They're new, they're cool, but they're far from unstoppable.

b) This is mostly irrelevant. Whether or not their 'bad' units are 'bad' in the metagame sense doesn't mean their 'good' units are any better. Paladins/Purifiers don't become unbeatable just because Purgators are decent.

c) Yeah, sure, you're paying very little more for a unit that has a heck of a lot more offensive power. BUT: This unit has to get in close to be effective (GK Tactical squads don't have the long-ranged options available to regular Tactical Squads), and it's no tougher. So your ten uber-killy Force-Weapon-equipped squad putting out an ungodly amount of short-ranged fire dies just as easily when a Basilisk sneezes on them as a normal Tactical Marine squad would.

In conclusion: Grey Knights are good, yes. They're near or at the top of the metagame these days, they can deal with most situations, they're powerful, they're cheap to build, and they look cool. They're also undersized (in model count terms), severely lacking in long-ranged weaponry, and rely a lot more on fewer significant rolls (psychic tests, attacks with fewer weapons) than larger armies. They're far from broken/overpowered.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I think the reason people call GKs cheesy is because they thought they could use the same tactic they used elsewhere. They assume their melee unit can take them out.

I call GK's cheesy because I can't even deploy a single model in my army half the time...

Warp Quake = most broken ability in the game.
Thanks Ward for shelving my entire freaking army!!!

True, but a warp quake spam list is not the most competitive list as it is good against 1 army that doesn't show up very much.

That list is what, 2 Grand Masters and 4 Strike/Interceptor squads. Thats alot of points for a lame gimmick.


You have my permission to drop kick any player pulling such a D-bag move. I play Purifiers, I don't run Warp Quake in my army.

Psyco-Trope Grenades, you mean psyco-BROKE grenades. man i hate those things

I'm not seeing how they are lacking in long ranged weaponry between razorbacks, chimeras, 6 possible dread slots to spam 5pt psybolts on, etc, and lots of move+shoot 24" (effective 30" threat radius) weaponry. They may lack for long range anti-AV14 and pieplates, but they have plenty of ways to reach out and touch an opponent at range. I'd much rather try and outshoot Eldar than GK's.

Well, i think technically, the Grey Knight is the best codex of the Warhammer 40k line. It is simply super-duper player friendly. Its only promblem is that the other codicies are way less convenient (less player friendly), so the outer balance is completely off.

I think that in a perfect codex, any and every build is equally competent. You can just randomly pick some units with random upgrades and still have a decent army with only a little less effectiveness than a min/maxed army (because that's how people have fun: using the units they like, and not the units they have to). And the GK codex pretty much accomplishes this.

Grey Templar wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I think the reason people call GKs cheesy is because they thought they could use the same tactic they used elsewhere. They assume their melee unit can take them out.

I call GK's cheesy because I can't even deploy a single model in my army half the time...

Warp Quake = most broken ability in the game.
Thanks Ward for shelving my entire freaking army!!!

True, but a warp quake spam list is not the most competitive list as it is good against 1 army that doesn't show up very much.

That list is what, 2 Grand Masters and 4 Strike/Interceptor squads. Thats alot of points for a lame gimmick.


You have my permission to drop kick any player pulling such a D-bag move. I play Purifiers, I don't run Warp Quake in my army.

Nope, you only 20 models to -over a Daemon army. A couple small GKSS's to babysit, and some of those lovely Interceptors who are so awsome at getting their psycannons to side/rear-shot your opponent's vehicles.
Spread your squads out the full 2" coherency against Daemons, and even 20 guys on a 6'x4' table becomes pretty much an auto-lose for any Daemon army because you also need to take into account your average scatter range. A 12" quake bubble on 10 guys can sudenly either make it a 'stupidly risky move' or outright lock-off a roughly 36" 'ish square area of table.

You're either forced well back and then shot down without a sweat, or else you're risking a 50/50 shot of your unit/s auto-dying. Either way, Daemons as an army are unplayable right now in areas with lots of GK saturation.
Add 10 more warp quake guys, and the Daemons can't get a single model onto the table unless you can roll a 'Hit' for the tiny little 8"x8" coner that's almost impossible for the GK to cover on turn 1. (at which point, you likely get no more than 2 actual units into play, or a few MC's + 1 unit.)

Outside of someone running either;
a) A pure Crowe-tax purifyer spam army
b) A pure Henchmen build
I have yet to see any local GK play NOT include at least a 10 strike squad or 10 man interceptor squad. And most armies typically include both!

As a fellow Space Wolves player... Paladins might be scary, but the stupid Crowe list or w/e with Purifier spam? Shoot that crap off the table. EASY. I include some PGs and PCs to deal with Paladins. Lay down the St8 first, maybe get a few, and then wrap on in the plasma to chip away.

Also, multi-assault them into oblivion AFTER you have taken them down a bit with your Long Fangs. I leave my Thunderlord/Cav in reserve as they usually get focused first turn. By the time they roll on the board, there is a good chance they can assault the turn they arrive. With Rune Priest + WTN, you have a chance to shut down their tricks and either wipe them up with S10 thunderhammers or lock them up.

I actually want a 2K Draigowing because it is 23 models (mine would be). I'd make them a cross of Space Wolves and GK Termies because I play the Storm Wardens, so I do what I want!

AtoMaki wrote:Well, i think technically, the Grey Knight is the best codex of the Warhammer 40k line. It is simply super-duper player friendly. Its only promblem is that the other codicies are way less convenient (less player friendly), so the outer balance is completely off.

I think that in a perfect codex, any and every build is equally competent. You can just randomly pick some units with random upgrades and still have a decent army with only a little less effectiveness than a min/maxed army (because that's how people have fun: using the units they like, and not the units they have to). And the GK codex pretty much accomplishes this.

So what your saying is, Grey knights are not OP, every other codex is UP? if that is what your saying... well thats completely wrong lol, lets put it this way, if one kid is a bully and bullies other kids because he is big, then by your (possible) reasoning its the kids fault for being to weak to stand up to the bully, so they need to change. Im of the mind, if the bully is the issue... get rid of it, not the kids, so release (never gonna hapen ever) an update to change a few points levels or tone some things down... but im an idiot for wanting real updates on a regular basis lol

AnomanderRake wrote:Grey Knights in and of themselves aren't broken; the issues are as follows:

a) They're a relatively new army, so people haven't figured out the tricks to squashing them yet.

b) They were written with very few 'bad' units in their Codex. Every rulebook has got a few units that don't measure up and are infrequently seen in competitive lists (Rangers, Support Weapon Platforms for the Eldar, Sky Rays, Sniper Drones for the Tau, Whirlwinds, Scout Bikes, Techmarines, and the Legion of the Damned for Codex Marines, etc.), the Grey Knights don't suffer from this problem. I could make a list using Purgators, regular PAGKs, regular Terminators, no psycannons at all, and do just fine.

c) Their individual soldiers are somewhat more powerful than anyone else's. Compare: Regular Tactical Marine to tactical Grey Knight: Identical statline, the GK gets a slightly better gun and a Force Weapon, the GK can Deep Strike, the GK doesn't get the two-weapon bonus attack, the GK squad has more and more versatile heavy weaponry, and the squad can use a psychic power to make themselves stronger. For only +4pts a model? Woo! Great deal!

However, consider:

a) Tricks to counter hated GK powers/weapons/units exist. Shadow in the Warp and Runes of Warding shut down their psychic tricks relatively effectively, Mind War can drop Apothecaries, TH/SS Terminators can stall GK power weapons pretty much indefinitely. Grey Knights don't have a lot that can handle long-ranged enemies, deploy far back and drop ordnance templates/plasma cannons on them. They're new, they're cool, but they're far from unstoppable.

b) This is mostly irrelevant. Whether or not their 'bad' units are 'bad' in the metagame sense doesn't mean their 'good' units are any better. Paladins/Purifiers don't become unbeatable just because Purgators are decent.

c) Yeah, sure, you're paying very little more for a unit that has a heck of a lot more offensive power. BUT: This unit has to get in close to be effective (GK Tactical squads don't have the long-ranged options available to regular Tactical Squads), and it's no tougher. So your ten uber-killy Force-Weapon-equipped squad putting out an ungodly amount of short-ranged fire dies just as easily when a Basilisk sneezes on them as a normal Tactical Marine squad would.

In conclusion: Grey Knights are good, yes. They're near or at the top of the metagame these days, they can deal with most situations, they're powerful, they're cheap to build, and they look cool. They're also undersized (in model count terms), severely lacking in long-ranged weaponry, and rely a lot more on fewer significant rolls (psychic tests, attacks with fewer weapons) than larger armies. They're far from broken/overpowered.

This. Very well said.

Formosa wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:Well, i think technically, the Grey Knight is the best codex of the Warhammer 40k line. It is simply super-duper player friendly. Its only promblem is that the other codicies are way less convenient (less player friendly), so the outer balance is completely off.

I think that in a perfect codex, any and every build is equally competent. You can just randomly pick some units with random upgrades and still have a decent army with only a little less effectiveness than a min/maxed army (because that's how people have fun: using the units they like, and not the units they have to). And the GK codex pretty much accomplishes this.

So what your saying is, Grey knights are not OP, every other codex is UP? if that is what your saying... well thats completely wrong lol, lets put it this way, if one kid is a bully and bullies other kids because he is big, then by your (possible) reasoning its the kids fault for being to weak to stand up to the bully, so they need to change. Im of the mind, if the bully is the issue... get rid of it, not the kids, so release (never gonna hapen ever) an update to change a few points levels or tone some things down... but im an idiot for wanting real updates on a regular basis lol

So you are saying that if there are a good thing sorrounded with not-so-good things then one should tone down the good into not-so-good and not vica versa? And yes i'm saying that the GK codex is OK (aside of its pricing issues), but the other codicies are "underpowered" in a way that they have bad and/or useless units/upgrades.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the reason people call GKs cheesy is because they thought they could use the same tactic they used elsewhere. They assume their melee unit can take them out.

If you charge any multi-wound unit into a Halberd squard you deserve to lose. GKs eat multi-wound units for breakfast.

Yes, I assume that my melee unit can take on other units of equivalent cost in CC.

I assume that my Warboss, a 100 point + model that is good at literally nothing aside from CC, would be at least competitive in CC against your army. Otherwise, what good is he?

Yea, you have to be smart with the hand to hand and to NOT assault Draigo. If I get my Thunderlord into the squad (and it has been sufficiently chipped away at by my armies guns), then 6x ST10 Thunderhammers that always hit on a 3+ will hurt (except I roll like ). I would try to get the squad Thunderhammer in there too and use one of the derpie guys to base the ICs to make sure I don't get the B2B with my Wolf Lord.

If they have those funky grenades, psychotroke (sp?), then you're better off using your hammer units to focus on any less squads. In 2K, you can have the 10 Man horror and the 5 Man support. That's the squad you want to assault while you shoot the 10 Man squad (+ Draigo, + Libby, + Tech Priest....) off the table.

TedNugent wrote:

Yes, I assume that my melee unit can take on other units of equivalent cost in CC.

Ah, in which case youre still making naive points comparisons. You do realise that comparing points between books is a really, really, naive way to compare efficiency, yes? I assume not, as you keep on doing it....

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Yes, I assume that my melee unit can take on other units of equivalent cost in CC.

Ah, in which case youre still making naive points comparisons. You do realise that comparing points between books is a really, really, naive way to compare efficiency, yes? I assume not, as you keep on doing it....

Yeah, because it's not like there's any objective way to - oh wait, look, points, statlines, wargear. It's almost like I could.... compare the two.

TedNugent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Yes, I assume that my melee unit can take on other units of equivalent cost in CC.

Ah, in which case youre still making naive points comparisons. You do realise that comparing points between books is a really, really, naive way to compare efficiency, yes? I assume not, as you keep on doing it....

Yeah, because it's not like there's any objective way to - oh wait, look, points, statlines, wargear. It's almost like I could.... compare the two.

No, you cannot.

200 points of Assault Terminators and 200 points of Tactical Marines is not going to be an even fight. You pay points to do a particular job. Tac marines pay points to be scoring, have a variety of weapons, and provide some mild fire support. Assault Terminators pay for two things. Durability and the ability to beat the snot out of just about anything in melee.



A Warboss pays points to allow you to take Nobs as troops and increase a squad's CC potential. Being able to take Nobs as Troops is a big deal. Otherwise its just a better PK platform.

Purifiers(and all GKs) pay points to be a hard counter to multi-wound models. Why are you surprised that he dies to a hard counter?


You pay points for certain units with their special abilities. 300 points of Tau Broadsides will NEVER win against 300 points of Ork Boyz with hidden PKs.

I'm not surprised that they're a hard counter, what I am surprised by is that such a versatile unit can be taken as an effective troop choice and completely fill out a list comp.

It's not like my Warboss can do anything aside from CC. I can either try to fenangle him in a suicide rush towards Dreadnoughts or take my chances against Purifiers. There's not much else a Warboss can do.

PS, cost-effectiveness is a composite ratio, the effectiveness is just as important to the cost. I didn't say direct cost comparisons, I said cost-effectiveness. What I'm arguing is that you can objectively compare the effectiveness to the cost, thus allowing you to say that, point-for-point, Terminators have better assault and close combat AV, whereas Tacs objectively have better shooting (Assault Terminators have no shooting). You did just that when you said this:

Grey Templar wrote:200 points of Assault Terminators and 200 points of Tactical Marines is not going to be an even fight.

AtoMaki wrote:

Formosa wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:Well, i think technically, the Grey Knight is the best codex of the Warhammer 40k line. It is simply super-duper player friendly. Its only promblem is that the other codicies are way less convenient (less player friendly), so the outer balance is completely off.

I think that in a perfect codex, any and every build is equally competent. You can just randomly pick some units with random upgrades and still have a decent army with only a little less effectiveness than a min/maxed army (because that's how people have fun: using the units they like, and not the units they have to). And the GK codex pretty much accomplishes this.

So what your saying is, Grey knights are not OP, every other codex is UP? if that is what your saying... well thats completely wrong lol, lets put it this way, if one kid is a bully and bullies other kids because he is big, then by your (possible) reasoning its the kids fault for being to weak to stand up to the bully, so they need to change. Im of the mind, if the bully is the issue... get rid of it, not the kids, so release (never gonna hapen ever) an update to change a few points levels or tone some things down... but im an idiot for wanting real updates on a regular basis lol

So you are saying that if there are a good thing sorrounded with not-so-good things then one should tone down the good into not-so-good and not vica versa? And yes i'm saying that the GK codex is OK (aside of its pricing issues), but the other codicies are "underpowered" in a way that they have bad and/or useless units/upgrades.

Ok i get what you mean now that is a fair point, im just a stickler and want a "living" rulebook or set of rules where the ballance of the game is adressed when it is clearly out of whack, for example Psybolt Ammo should get changed to at least 20pts for the upgrade, they did it with DA to bring them up to date, so why not GK or SW to re-ballance them?

Just to be clear i also think TH/SS termies need to cost more too, same as Belial, Purifiers, Grey hunters etc

TedNugent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Yes, I assume that my melee unit can take on other units of equivalent cost in CC.

Ah, in which case youre still making naive points comparisons. You do realise that comparing points between books is a really, really, naive way to compare efficiency, yes? I assume not, as you keep on doing it....

Yeah, because it's not like there's any objective way to - oh wait, look, points, statlines, wargear. It's almost like I could.... compare the two.

I said you can do so, just that it is a VERY naive way to compare units - you know what is meant by "naive", yes? Overly simplistic to the point ot being almost useless is another . It doesnt take into account FOC slot, for one, and I would *hope* you would have the sense to realise the importance of FOC slot? You also have to see what it brings to the army in terms of utility: a unit of TH/SS terminators bring far more to an IG army, which lacks anvil units, than it does to a BA army, so they would pay more. Its why WG TH/SS cost so much - because they can be hidden in units, etc - and so on.

It's why your initial cost comparison was so hilarious - it results in banshees being 30ppm. Same as everytime the same simplistic arguments over costs come up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Yes, I assume that my melee unit can take on other units of equivalent cost in CC.

Ah, in which case youre still making naive points comparisons. You do realise that comparing points between books is a really, really, naive way to compare efficiency, yes? I assume not, as you keep on doing it....

Yeah, because it's not like there's any objective way to - oh wait, look, points, statlines, wargear. It's almost like I could.... compare the two.

I said you can do so, just that it is a VERY naive way to compare units - you know what is meant by "naive", yes? Overly simplistic to the point ot being almost useless is another . It doesnt take into account FOC slot, for one, and I would *hope* you would have the sense to realise the importance of FOC slot? You also have to see what it brings to the army in terms of utility: a unit of TH/SS terminators bring far more to an IG army, which lacks anvil units, than it does to a BA army, so they would pay more. Its why WG TH/SS cost so much - because they can be hidden in units, etc - and so on.

It's why your initial cost comparison was so hilarious - it results in banshees being 30ppm. Same as everytime the same simplistic arguments over costs come up.

How would you compare units then Nos?

Not JUSt on points. As I stated in the post you quoted.

Note, I havent said that it is an invalid method - just naive. Its a very basic first order comparison, and is easy to do - which is why people do it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not JUSt on points. As I stated in the post you quoted.

Note, I havent said that it is an invalid method - just naive. Its a very basic first order comparison, and is easy to do - which is why people do it.

So what your saying is somthing like this

1: cost of unit
2: Place on FoC
3: capabilities of unit
4: unit options
5: Ability of unit in game

As oposed to comparing just like this

1: Tac marine costs 16pts
2: GH costs 15pts

GH is better as you get more for the cost.

Is that what you mean?

Grey Templar wrote:Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Does activating a Force weapon count as a psychic power? Because otherwise they have Hammerhand by nature, then activate their forceweapons. S5 + Instant Death.

Yes, GK is OP.

Honestly the only thing that can be said in their defense is that the Meta also includes SW, IG, BA, Necrons, and DE, which means that multiple armies can compete in tournaments, rather than ONLY GK having a chance, like 3.5 Iron Warriors which mercilessly dominated every event. 5e is far better balanced than previous editions (amongst codices) but that still doesn't mean that GK aren't the top of the heap.

As someone had already mentioned, the real brokenness was 7e Fantasy, where Demons were still vast levels above and beyond Dark Elves and Vampire Counts, who were themselves quite powerful. None of the armies could even compete. At least against GK you can compete. Against Demons a 12 year old won a local tournament against vastly more experienced players because his army list did all the work for him.

My concern is that, like 8e Fantasy, 6e 40k will do nothing to correct the powerlevel of GK, but will instead increase the disparity between the competitive armies (SW et al) and the non-competitive ones (Tau, Nids, Demons, SoB) making them even less likely to be seen in competative events. See 7e-8e demons (whose only "loss" was not being able to roll regen and ward saves for the same wound, slightly nerfing Plaguebunkers, and fear/terror changes, which halted terror bombing. The Fear nerf was barely felt, as demons didn't often outnumber their foes after a win (they never needed to in order to win, unlike VC) and also gained use of the Steadfast rule (which VC could not use, and combined with Fear nerf meant that VC went from tied as the DoC closest competitor to rock bottom in one fell swoop, was telling.)

Then look at 7e WE or Brets vs 8e. WE especially took it in the shorts as they could not as reliably redirect charges, march block, LOS blocking for forests, skirmish changes, or reliance on setting up inopportunistic charges for their opponants, forcing whomever charges them to face the wrong way after killing a unit (free reforms after a win.) What they did pick up was a buff to monsterous infantry and the ability to fire in two ranks. With the limited utility of BS based shooting in Fantasy in any edition (and the increased strength of warmachines in 8e) the buff to Treekin alone wasn't enough to offset the primary advantages that WE needed in order to be playable.

I worry about the same thing happening to 40k. It's one thing if you get nerfed to high hell and you were a very strong codex in the previous edition (VC) or got updated shortly after the new edition's release (ditto VC) because then you can at least bask in knowing you had a good book once and just wait for the update. But for WE who never got a 7e book and have no 8e book on the horizon, you then begin to worry about Tau and SOB in the same light.

Nagashek wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Then look at 7e WE or Brets vs 8e. WE especially took it in the shorts as they could not as reliably redirect charges, march block, LOS blocking for forests, skirmish changes, or reliance on setting up inopportunistic charges for their opponants, forcing whomever charges them to face the wrong way after killing a unit (free reforms after a win.) What they did pick up was a buff to monsterous infantry and the ability to fire in two ranks. With the limited utility of BS based shooting in Fantasy in any edition (and the increased strength of warmachines in 8e) the buff to Treekin alone wasn't enough to offset the primary advantages that WE needed in order to be playable.

.

my poor bretonnians...

^yes, activating the force weapons is a psychic power. They couldn't cast hammerhand as well without a character.

Nagashek wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Does activating a Force weapon count as a psychic power? Because otherwise they have Hammerhand by nature, then activate their forceweapons. S5 + Instant Death.

Yes, it's a psychic power. Page 50 BRB.

loota boy wrote:^yes, activating the force weapons is a psychic power. They couldn't cast hammerhand as well without a character.

(and Rigeld) Thanks for the clarification. Not a terrible deficiency, given that it's easy enough to put said IC's where they will be needed for higher strength and instakill. But still rather redundant.

they just bring that fething banner of theirs and its problem solved.

Its still a psychic test(just auto-passed) and only on Terminator/Paladin squads. They still can't HH and FW at the same time without a character.

Truth templar

I think everyone need to keep in mind how easy it is to cut the knights to blood ribbons at long range.

captain collius wrote:Truth templar

I think everyone need to keep in mind how easy it is to cut the knights to blood ribbons at long range.

Its not that easy to be fair, this isnt because of the Knights themselves to be fair, there is always plenty of cover for both Dreads and infantry, and las/plas razors are very good at shooting along side the dreads.

A misconception a few people seem to be having is that GK are "just space marines" and are easy to kill, space marines are not easy to kill, 3+ saves are very very good and paladins 2+ (and normal termies) is great too, plop them in cover and its even better, now like i said this applies to all marines not just GK

Space marines arent difficult to kill at range - just ask venomspam DE players, or shoota boyz ork players, which outshoot on foot marines by a fair amount.

Its getting them out the vehicles which is the harder part, usually .

Their prevalence means most armies are geared to kill marines - the cries of "OP!" generally come from people who try the same tactics as, after all, they're just marines, and expect them to work just as well. Its like when eldar appeared in 4th - if you tried the usual tactics you got stomped by the flying circus.

No. They are not unbalanced or OP. Not at all.

Daemonhammer@ Are you serious with that comment? They aren't unbalanced? I am really hoping you were being sarcastic because if not that is the craziest statement I have ever seen posted on a forum.

Of course they are overpowered. I heard it said on another forum that the 3.5 codex for Chaos was a deliberate thing done on the part of the guy who wrote it so that his army could be the best army in 40k (Pete Haines with his Iron Warriors in case anyone forgot).

Now whether that is true or not I don't know. What I do know is that GW caught an unholy amount of flack over the 7th ed Daemon codex in Fantasy and from everything I have heard about it much deserved flack.

So what happens for 5th edition Grey Knights, they give the codex over to the guy that broke a whole edition of Fantasy and he decides to make up for his mistakes by making the Daemon Hunter army in 40k the best army hands down.

Its one of the main reasons why I am so glad he isn't doing the Chaos Dex for 6th. Phil Kelly writes really good codexes and maybe just maybe he can write a dex that makes people actually want to play Chaos again. I picked up my Chaos Marines shortly after I heard he was writing the dex because I knew it wouldn't be a travesty like the GK dex was.

I could almost get over their OP if the fluff wasn't so damn terrible. A Space Marine carved his name into Mortarion's chest and lived to tell the tale? That is so stupid that it sounds like a 6 year old wrote it.

Its one of the main reasons why I am so glad he isn't doing the Chaos Dex for 6th. Phil Kelly writes really good codexes and maybe just maybe he can write a dex that makes people actually want to play Chaos again. I picked up my Chaos Marines shortly after I heard he was writing the dex because I knew it wouldn't be a travesty like the GK dex was.

Phil kelly does write good codex's, he's written at least mid-tier, and of course his two overpowered codexs (4th edition falcondar, and 5th edition space wolves)

Of course they are overpowered. I heard it said on another forum that the 3.5 codex for Chaos was a deliberate thing done on the part of the guy who wrote it so that his army could be the best army in 40k (Pete Haines with his Iron Warriors in case anyone forgot).

The 3.5 was written by not one person, but 5 people, Andy chambers, Pete Haines, Andy Hoare, Phil Kelly, and Graham Mcneill.

That's a complete BS rumor to say the least though.

So what happens for 5th edition Grey Knights, they give the codex over to the guy that broke a whole edition of Fantasy and he decides to make up for his mistakes by making the Daemon Hunter army in 40k the best army hands down.

He also made 8th edition fantasy, which fixed the horrible mess of daemons (Which are beatable now) and nerfed the godly spellcasters of the VC and DE armies, and VC got a nice update that put them in an alright spot.

Not to mention the edition is actually pretty good and fun to play, so I think he succeeded there at least, and the set of fantasy books in 8th is perhaps the most balanced since 6th edition warhammer fantasy. Which is a lovely thing.

Related, so glad Gav Thorpe isn't writing, he did up 7th first with DE and VC to begin with...

So by that math then if "He who shall not be named" wrote the majority of 6th ed then it should fix whats wrong with 40k now too since he fixed Fantasy with 8th?

We shall see. If anyone else wants to hold their breath by all means go ahead. I'll believe it when I see it in front of me.

Reivex - erm, you do realise IW werent that broken in 3rd / 4th? It was daemonbomb that did the majority of the damage, IW were a one trick pony that was mediocre at best once you figured that trick out.

Its a lot like the hard counter to GK tends to be foot orks - the *actual* GK lists you see are light on purifiers, heavy on cheap henchmen in psybacks (unless you play at 2500, a level the game is just silly at - ake everything you want!) - so 25ish units of boyz, backed by kannon and loota for vehicle cracking, do very well. Psybacks and psyriflemen do badly when facing that many bodies - theyre quality, not quantity.

Reivax26 wrote:Its one of the main reasons why I am so glad he isn't doing the Chaos Dex for 6th. Phil Kelly writes really good codexes and maybe just maybe he can write a dex that makes people actually want to play Chaos again. I picked up my Chaos Marines shortly after I heard he was writing the dex because I knew it wouldn't be a travesty like the GK dex was.

Yes, Space Wolves are truly a bastion of excellent Codex design.

Reivax26 wrote:I could almost get over their OP if the fluff wasn't so damn terrible. A Space Marine carved his name into Mortarion's chest and lived to tell the tale? That is so stupid that it sounds like a 6 year old wrote it.

I'm not going to go into why I think you're completely wrong here, but "wolf wolf wolf wolf" is better than the GK fluff?

Reivax26 wrote:Daemonhammer@ Are you serious with that comment? They aren't unbalanced? I am really hoping you were being sarcastic because if not that is the craziest statement I have ever seen posted on a forum.

Not agreeing with you is not the same as being silly or sarcastic.

Formosa wrote:
A misconception a few people seem to be having is that GK are "just space marines" and are easy to kill, space marines are not easy to kill, 3+ saves are very very good and paladins 2+ (and normal termies) is great too, plop them in cover and its even better, now like i said this applies to all marines not just GK

They're more expensive with no improvement in defensive capabilities. They're just as easy to kill as other Space Marines, and you can drone on all you want about 3+ and 2+ saves, Marines die just fine to torrent of fire. Cover also works more in the favour of, for example, Orks and Imperial Guard, than it does for Grey Knights, due to the GK (and all Space Marines in general) already paying for that 3+ save, whereas the cheaper, horde-style armies get what is essentially a 4+ save for free.

Walrus, you're paying 25 points for a Power Fist. A GK pays 5-10 points for a Thunder Hammer.

He gets a Power Sword included in the cost of every model. You pay 15 points to attach a Power Sword to one model.

He gets Storm Bolters included in the cost of every model. You are usually not given the option for Storm Bolters - but when you are, it is a 3 point upgrade. And of course, he receives, for a five point premium, a psychic ability called Fortitude resolved against a Leadership ten, whereas you must pay 15 points for armor plates. And is it not understood that GK vehicles are more survivable? Why is this not noted by GK apologists? Why do you not note that 2 out of 6 damage results are mitigated on a 5/6 Psychic Test, and incidentally 2 of the 5 damage results that prevent shooting? Do you not recognize that this is a fabulous boon for their AC Dreads?

So first, the thing you should recognize is that your GK army will fare better in transports. Your transports are better than another army's transports, cost-for-cost, and because they have an easier time continuing to shoot each turn, you might as well get Razorbacks with Psybolt.

Second, you get more firepower per Marine, and better CC capabilities. You can get a S9 Thunder Hammer for 5 points on a Purifier Squad or 10 points on a Strike Squad. Given that a Tac Marine squad pays 25 points for a Power Fist, that means you are already at a 15-20 point discount cost-for-cost. So I don't buy this argument that GKs suffer from a serious deficit in bodies. Write us up a list of equivalent firepower on GK/Tac - note I said firepower, not CC capability - and compare the body counts, and we will see how dramatically GKs suffer in this respect.

TedNugent wrote:Walrus, you're paying 25 points for a Power Fist. A GK pays 5-10 points for a Thunder Hammer.

Oh look, you're back with this same tired, discredited by the dozens argument again....

10 points for a A1 TH vs 25 points for A2 on a WG attached to that squad

TedNugent wrote:He gets a Power Sword included in the cost of every model. You pay 15 points to attach a Power Sword to one model.

Oh look, youre back with this same tired, discredited argument again

They *have* to pay for it, so pay *less* than squads where it is an *option*.

TedNugent wrote:He gets Storm Bolters included in the cost of every model. You are usually not given the option for Storm Bolters - but when you are, it is a 3 point upgrade.

That you can choose to get. You also lack the 2CCW bonus that other armies can manage, so while the quality of attacks is better, you dont get the quantity. So armies that dont care about quality, like Orks, DE Wyches, and so on, could care less that you have a powersword.

TedNugent wrote:And of course, he receives, for a five point premium, a psychic ability called Fortitude resolved against a Leadership ten, whereas you must pay 15 points for armor plates.
And is it not understood that GK vehicles are more survivable? Why is this not noted by GK apologists? Why do you not note that 2 out of 6 damage results are mitigated on a 5/6 Psychic Test, and incidentally 2 of the 5 damage results that prevent shooting? Do you not recognize that this is a fabulous boon for their AC Dreads?

Extra Armour works 100% of the time, g'teed, and is great at keeping transports and walkers moving - in theory the main role for them. Not only can you fail the psychic check, you can perils causing another glancing hit, likely leaving you in the same situation of not shooting as before, and it can be stopped. You're neglecting in your oh-so-insightful isolationist arguments that SW negate that power 50%+ of the time, most MEQ armies 1/3rd of the time and Eldar, with only just ONE farseer (when usually you get two) drop that 5/6 down to failing on average, and perils considerably more often.

And GK Apologists, really? When your arguments fail you resort to attacking the poster? Brilliant strategy, sure to win all arguments you participate in.

TedNugent wrote:So first, the thing you should recognize is that your GK army will fare better in transports. Your transports are better than another army's transports, cost-for-cost, and because they have an easier time continuing to shoot each turn, you might as well get Razorbacks with Psybolt.

Joy, yet more generalist false statements. 3 shot psyback <<<<<< 12 shot venom, with built in 5++ and wounding everything on 4+ against infantry, esp massed foot orks and the like, allows more models to fire out, allows you to move the transport, run and assault with combat troops, as opposed to waiting a turn after getting in position.

Your argument falls over trivially easy again.

TedNugent wrote:Second, you get more firepower per Marine, and better CC capabilities.

More quality is not always "better" CC capability on any meaningful level. You also get more anti infantry fire power in storm bolters, but lack at-range vehicle crackers - assault cannons dont cut it compared to melta, as I would hope you would be honest enough to at least acknowledge.

TedNugent wrote: You can get a S9 Thunder Hammer for 5 points on a Purifier Squad or 10 points on a Strike Squad.

In your naive arguments you "missed" that they are a) S8 and b) S10 only if a psychic power is passed, at which point no ID ability (unless an IC or Thawn, VERY expensive, is around) - and that psychic power is Ld9 at best, meaning normal marines stop it 1/2 the time and against Eldar it just isnt worth it. Lucky for you I fill in the negatives you conveniently omit in your not at all biased arguments!

TedNugent wrote:Given that a Tac Marine squad pays 25 points for a Power Fist, that means you are already at a 15-20 point discount cost-for-cost. So I don't buy this argument that GKs suffer from a serious deficit in bodies. Write us up a list of equivalent firepower on GK/Tac - note I said firepower, not CC capability - and compare the body counts, and we will see how dramatically GKs suffer in this respect.

For that single model. Apparently you're not taking into account the 5pt per model premium for the same survivability.

I don't have that much time, but for a couple of things,

Yes, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge the 5-9 point premium for a GK over a Tac Marine, I'm just arguing that that is mitigated somewhat by the free Power Weapons, Storm Bolters, and 15-20 point discount on Thunder Hammers/Power Fists.

And sure, open-topped transports allow for more firepower, which is why they receive a +1 to damage rolls against them and also have AV10. That 5+ invul is great, but also costs points, and most DE transports cost as much or more than a GK Rhino.

But if you want to give me the point that firepower is a fair trade-off for survivability, then the rest of your diatribe against GK critics crumbles, because you're the one saying GKs are "just as survivable" as Tac Marines and spite of their increased firepower, and this is supposed to make me turn my head and look the other way at the increased firepower. Then you should apply that principle to DE sailboats and recognize that they are only AV10-11 with Open-topped, and thus can be defeated by Bolter Fire.

GK, overpowered. Pure and simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote: You can get a S9 Thunder Hammer for 5 points on a Purifier Squad or 10 points on a Strike Squad.

In your naive arguments you "missed" that they are a) S8 and b) S10 only if a psychic power is passed, at which point no ID ability (unless an IC or Thawn, VERY expensive, is around) - and that psychic power is Ld9 at best, meaning normal marines stop it 1/2 the time and against Eldar it just isnt worth it. Lucky for you I fill in the negatives you conveniently omit in your not at all biased arguments!

Just to mention: S8 already instakills by its nature on any models T4 or less, S10 does so on T5. If the enemy is T5, you use Hammerhand and Bam: Dead on a 2+ to wound. If they are T6, you Activate Force Weapons. Bam: dead on a 2+. If they are T4 or less, dead on a 2+. Honestly the decision about Hammerhand vs FW is only one that needs to be made for non-thunderhammer weapons in the squad when facing multiwound models. When it comes to MC killing, it's all situational.

They *have* to pay for it, so pay *less* than squads where it is an *option*.

Love to "Have" that option on all my troops too, it's an exceptional deal.

10 points for a A1 TH vs 25 points for A2 on a WG attached to that squad

So you agree with him? A standard Sargent can get that way too.

That you can choose to get. You also lack the 2CCW bonus that other armies can manage, so while the quality of attacks is better, you dont get the quantity. So armies that dont care about quality, like Orks, DE Wyches, and so on, could care less that you have a powersword.

Of course you can make them care with your S5 stormbolters that you can kite them around with, and Wychs do care as you deny their FNP when they have it.

Extra Armour works 100% of the time, g'teed, and is great at keeping transports and walkers moving - in theory the main role for them. Not only can you fail the psychic check, you can perils causing another glancing hit, likely leaving you in the same situation of not shooting as before, and it can be stopped. You're neglecting in your oh-so-insightful isolationist arguments that SW negate that power 50%+ of the time, most MEQ armies 1/3rd of the time and Eldar, with only just ONE farseer (when usually you get two) drop that 5/6 down to failing on average, and perils considerably more often.

Which is modified by the fact that at best, it's a 5-10 point psyker ability that has a , and that most of the armies have to get within 24" of it with their librarian, which thanks to S8 TL 4 shots will easily put down most standard transports for marines, unless that librarian is deep-striking in. With the exception of Eldar, they have to reach the vehicles, and SITW has to be within 12"

Joy, yet more generalist false statements. 3 shot psyback <<<<<< 12 shot venom, with built in 5++ and wounding everything on 4+ against infantry, esp massed foot orks and the like, allows more models to fire out, allows you to move the transport, run and assault with combat troops, as opposed to waiting a turn after getting in position.

Your argument falls over trivially easy again.

Considering that S6 shots from a heavy bolter still scare most venoms, or S7 from an assault cannon with rending will utterly wreck an open top AV10 transport, and that venomspam usually depends upon getting 18" blasters up close to shoot you..

I'm not saying they're better though, but they fall apart to a stiff breeze half the time when I fight them.

More quality is not always "better" CC capability on any meaningful level. You also get more anti infantry fire power in storm bolters, but lack at-range vehicle crackers - assault cannons dont cut it compared to melta, as I would hope you would be honest enough to at least acknowledge.

4 S8 TL shots per turn from three psyflemen

Melta from Henchmen armies, alongside psybacks

And if your not doing that, you just shoot down the transports, and if they have a land raider you fire your rending psycannons till they eventually pop.

In your naive arguments you "missed" that they are a) S8 and b) S10 only if a psychic power is passed, at which point no ID ability (unless an IC or Thawn, VERY expensive, is around) - and that psychic power is Ld9 at best, meaning normal marines stop it 1/2 the time and against Eldar it just isnt worth it. Lucky for you I fill in the negatives you conveniently omit in your not at all biased arguments!

The problem is that not everyone has this exceptional defense, one of the major things not arguing against them aren't marine players, but those generally without the major psyker defense, like orks for example.

TedNugent wrote:And sure, open-topped transports allow for more firepower, which is why they receive a +1 to damage rolls against them and also have AV10. That 5+ invul is great, but also costs points, and most DE transports cost as much or more than a GK Rhino.

A Dakka Venom is 65pts and puts out 12 poison shots. A Raider with a Darklance and FF is 70. >.< The major divergence is what is inside by comparison, and what you can get for the cost. A GK Rhino can put out more punishing fire while stationary (based on the guys inside) while a Venom can put out (Assuming best output) 4 18" lances and 12 poison shots if it moves 6", or only 12 poison shots if it moves 12. The occupants can assault out, but the units inside are usually geared for Rock/Paper/Scissors engagements. Not to mention that, not only more easily destroyed, the passangers of the DE vehicles will lose more members on average and have a greater likelyhood of being pinned, panicking, and NOT rallying afterwards.

Mosly I get irritated that Rhinos can pop the hatch with no penalties whatsoever (such as counting as OT when they do so) and fire out, but at least they aren't fast. Um. Mostly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: A well thought out, point for point post.

I don't always agree with ZebioLizard, but when I do, it's about Grey Knights.

Stay Cheesy, my friends.

Ted - actually you didnt acknowledge that at all. Plus youre still making the simplistic comparisons.....

You also made the statement that GK Transports are the best transport bar none - I just proved that they arent. You were making yet more general statements that were yet again wrong.

Zebio - if it were an option, you would pay more than GK do. That was the point you seem to be missing there.

I'll try it again: you pay more for item X when it is an *option* than when it is *mandatory*. This is because you have more flexibility, and you are committed to paying it regardless of if it giving you any benefits or not.

I disagreed with the overly simplistic "10 points!!!" stance, y showing you gain attacks when paying 25points, as a sarge has 2 attacks base. That is a benefit that, yet again, Ted was ignoring as it would be inconvenient to their argument.

S5 stormbolters that costs 2pts per model, minimum, and usually more - 2.25 for the models that can actually use it in a GKSS, 3.33 for a purifier squad. Apparently this is free for you, as you dont even mention it as a downside.

None of your negatives about fortitude take away from the fact that, astonishingly, Ted doesnt seem to suffer *any* negatives with the use of psychic powers, and is entirey free to consider them in a vacuum. The game isnt a vacuum. 24" range isnt difficult to get with things like drop pods, storm ravens, etc all managing to be quite quick at getting to you. Loved the way you just brushed over Eldar though, who completely shut down any and all non-BB based powers....

DE Venomspam usually relies on getting the important stuff shot down by ravagers *first*, while suicide squads move in with venoms. You've also forgotten necrons, whose wall of AV13 cares little for S6 psybacks, and that assault cannon are 24", which is just a little shorter than DL.....

The point of mentionning venoms, as you seem to have missed it, was that Ted made the hilarious claim that GK transports were the best. I pointed out a number of ways that the Phil Kelly "mandatory 10 point upgrade" venom which costs about 5pts more could be considered better than a psyback, to prove that the argument was complete nonsense - again.

Onto quality: yet again you have missed that Ted is arguing a mythical army which contains, at the same time, oodles of purifiers, GKSS, Interceptors, henchmen, paladins etc, with no points or indeed FOC limit (as we're now up to 3 HQs needed to get everything). I was pointing out that IF you take PAKG then you lose out on melta in those squads - a 2 shot (as you're going to be disembarking) assault cannon, even at S7, doesnt open AV12 / 13 / 14 with any reliability. If you've got psybacks then you're not shooting from inside them, meaning those LR tend to flame you to death.

I am aware that not everyone has those defences, however Teds argument was such a 1st order level - it took no account of the odds of failure, or that if you perils you ARE losing a model, etc. Best case always vs worst case always is not generally the way to run a comparison of strengths and weaknesses, and Ted has been consistently poor in this regard.

Nagashek - then venoms stay at 36", away from the 24" range guns, until the ravagers have killed enough transports for you to splinter the guys inside to death.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Oh look, you're back with this same tired, discredited by the dozens argument again....

10 points for a A1 TH vs 25 points for A2 on a WG attached to that squad

Read your dex, buddy.

Strike Squads get a base 2 attacks Sergeant that doubles as a Hammerhand Psyker. Place your TH on that model.

E.g. 10 points for an A2 TH with an option for S10 Hammerhand vs 25 points for an A2 S8 PF Sergeant.

Lol. what, so your first perils kills your anti walker weapon? Just when you need it?

You can do so, I suppose.

In short: I knew their justicar was A2, I just dont see most actual lists, not your in vacuum best outcome always lists that contain everything, put the hammer on the justicar.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol. what, so your first perils kills your anti walker weapon? Just when you need it?

You can do so, I suppose.

In short: I knew their justicar was A2, I just dont see most actual lists, not your in vacuum best outcome always lists that contain everything, put the hammer on the justicar.

Or you could get Purifiers and put it on any model for only 5 points and get A2 Hammerhand.

Or you could leave it on your Strike Squad Justicar and neglect to use Hammerhand, in which case it's still a 2A S8 Thunderhammer for 10 pts versus your 2A S8 PF for 5 points. Or, what the hell, you could put it on a regular Strike GK and then get an A1 S10 Hammerhand TH and then put it on another Strike GK for 2 A1 S10 Hammerhand THs for 20 points, which is still a 5 point discount compared to your 2A S8 PF.

Plus Hammerhand occurs on what, double 1 double 6, in which case it's a very minor percent chance to occur relative to the benefit. In fact, only 2/36, or roughly 5.5~% or 5.5 repeating percent.

Plus there's rather an advantage to putting it on the Justicar, that being, when you put it on the Justicar then you have two important benefits attached to one model, being Psychic test and CC AV, which can actually be important in preserving the model as far as wound allocation.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Of course you can make them care with your S5 stormbolters that you can kite them around with, and Wychs do care as you deny their FNP when they have it.

Nobs also care, because their Force Weapons not only deny them their FNP save, thus reducing them to a 5+ save on a 25 point minimum model, but they can also instant kill them on a successful force activation (on Ld9, or ~70% success)

Blood Angels would also doubly care, because their Assault units rely on a FNP and 3+ save, both of which are ignored in CC by Grey Knights Force Weapons.

You also ignore that, when upgrading from a power weapon to a power fist, you dont pay 25 points.

Carry on with your naive, simplistic best-case arguments. They are really convincing.

I'm sorry, Nosferatu, but your counter arguments really aren't much better. All you're doing is poo-pooing their arguments without giving anything substantial back.

One thing I see is a comparison between massive mobs of shootas and squads of marines, in terms of shooting. That's not a very clever comparison, for a few reasons.

1) Deployment: You're going to be forced into a wide frontage deployment with a force like this, and the opponent can quite happily deploy in a refused flank that makes best use of the available terrain. This means he effectively only has to fight half your army at a time with his entire army.
2)Range: To get your full firepower on an enemy squad, you have to get all your shootas in range. It's not uncommon for a mob of shootas to extend over 6" of the battlefield, often more along the frontage, especially if there are any templates or pie plates on offer or if there has been funnelling caused by terrain. You'll usually get 10-15 in range (and this is after eating a turn of shooting from his entire army on your closest mob, so you may be lucky to do that well). You don't kill many marines with even 30 shoota shots (10 hit, 5 wound, you might kill 2.).
3) Movement: The footprint has another effect- you are slowed down by difficult terrain pretty much every turn. Sometimes this is not a big issue, but other times you can come down with what I call "gluefoot" where you get caught with a couple of 1,2, or 3,3 rolls in a turn. You get shredded by the long range fire when this happens.

Given all of this, the GK player most likely has some awful counter assault sitting ready for you.

Please explain to me how an ork player overcomes this. Is the answer Kan Wall?

I disagreed with the overly simplistic "10 points!!!" stance, y showing you gain attacks when paying 25points, as a sarge has 2 attacks base. That is a benefit that, yet again, Ted was ignoring as it would be inconvenient to their argument.

You have Justicars that can carry it for strike squads, and purifiers can get it for 5 points on each model, which do have 2 attacks base.

S5 stormbolters that costs 2pts per model, minimum, and usually more - 2.25 for the models that can actually use it in a GKSS, 3.33 for a purifier squad. Apparently this is free for you, as you dont even mention it as a downside.

Because 20 points to make an entire squad S5 in shooting, which basically matches tau (without their range) and is assault? And only costs the price of one strike squad model?

None of your negatives about fortitude take away from the fact that, astonishingly, Ted doesnt seem to suffer *any* negatives with the use of psychic powers, and is entirey free to consider them in a vacuum. The game isnt a vacuum. 24" range isnt difficult to get with things like drop pods, storm ravens, etc all managing to be quite quick at getting to you. Loved the way you just brushed over Eldar though, who completely shut down any and all non-BB based powers....

Oh gee, you suddenly lose your Psybolt ammo shots because of the Eldar's Psyker defense oh wait no you don't, you still put out high quality shots, or that your "Expensive" model, which is only 5-15 points more than your standard riflemen, whose Reinforced Aegis still works against Eldar.

Yes there's plenty of things that can easily get within 24" like drop pods..Or maybe you can just park a strike squad next to it, pop that ability, and deepstrikers can't near them at all. As for the rest, they can, but they have to move across the board or have a good outflank after all..

DE Venomspam usually relies on getting the important stuff shot down by ravagers *first*, while suicide squads move in with venoms. You've also forgotten necrons, whose wall of AV13 cares little for S6 psybacks, and that assault cannon are 24", which is just a little shorter than DL.....

No I havn't forgotten necrons, but they care for the melta squads inside said psybacks.

As for the ravagers, they can shoot things down of course, but unless they get a 3+ on the result, they'll still be moving forward towards them and firing.

Onto quality: yet again you have missed that Ted is arguing a mythical army which contains, at the same time, oodles of purifiers, GKSS, Interceptors, henchmen, paladins etc, with no points or indeed FOC limit (as we're now up to 3 HQs needed to get everything). I was pointing out that IF you take PAKG then you lose out on melta in those squads - a 2 shot (as you're going to be disembarking) assault cannon, even at S7, doesnt open AV12 / 13 / 14 with any reliability. If you've got psybacks then you're not shooting from inside them, meaning those LR tend to flame you to death.

Yeah his arguments were a bit off the wall, I missed a few of his comments before I saw the hypothetical.

You also ignore that, when upgrading from a power weapon to a power fist, you dont pay 25 points.

Technically you don't, but a Pfist is a 15 point upgrade of a PW, so GK are paying a 10 point upgrade over a force weapon.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Oh gee, you suddenly lose your Psybolt ammo shots because of the Eldar's Psyker defense oh wait no you don't, you still put out high quality shots, or that your "Expensive" model, which is only 5-15 points more than your standard riflemen, whose Reinforced Aegis still works against Eldar.

Yes there's plenty of things that can easily get within 24" like drop pods..Or maybe you can just park a strike squad next to it, pop that ability, and deepstrikers can't near them at all. As for the rest, they can, but they have to move across the board or have a good outflank after all..

In which case you have a unit sitting in the backfield that you've paid for that doesn't do a whole lot of damage, which is where the opportunity cost of Grey Knights comes in.

Zebio - 10 point upgrade. PW 15 points, pfist 25 (MEQ stats)

20 points is not...what? It's still 20 points, its still another model you could have had - as you helpfully point out. The point is that you cannot just claim "S5 SB!!!!" without pointing out the actual cost associated with it.

They dont need to Doom you, and even if they do they still have a better than 50% chance of passing - 3D6 lose the highest on Ld6. Its not putting out those high quality shots as Eldar tend to shoot first, at least when played competently. You just seem to totally ignore the negatives of relying on a psychic check - and, agaiin, there is this sudden perfect counter in a GKSS that you have *just* to babysit against deepstrikers, when again the *actual* lists dont tend to have them in favour of more henchmen.

There are multiple ways around psyriflemen, being tied up in CC being one way to deal with them - they dont kill a lot in CC, after all.

Necrons tend to pop psybacks quite handily. You have heard of annihilation barges, yes? Plus melta squads dont get to fire inside a psyback, meaning theyre out in the open. They dont last long at that point.

In short: Stop making really, really simplistic and easily refuted arguments about "OP!!!!!", and this thread *unlike every other GK are OP!!!! thread ever* could have a hope of some useful discussion. Refusal to see counters, when the UK scene have managed this in general, or to actually even admit the downsides rather than pointless made up lists that dont respect points nor the FOC (no melta, so suddenly all the henchmen squads appear! Orks so max purifiers! DS? Strike squads suddenly appear in a slot or 2! and so on) would be a help

Da Boss - I've seen Ork players manage this, quite successfully. The actual lists, which dont have every single possible unit in it unlike Teds "lists", tend not to have much that can withstand 6 25 man boyz units under cover, arriving in waves. The trick is to *not* multicharge purifiers, unlike normal grunts where multicharging is a good thing - its another change to base tactics, same as any book. GK lists have too much quality and not enough quantity to deal with big hordes lists.

I haven't mentioned multi-assaulting at all in what I was saying though. I would never multi assault purifiers, it'd be madness!

I don't see how you can say they don't have enough quantity to deal with hordes when they can put out so much quality firepower and have the hands down best anti horde CC unit in the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Snip.

I'm not claiming they are OP, I am claiming they set the bar far higher than most can jump, some armies have good counters and some dread seeing them appear on the field.

In most cases, if everyone was up to GK's power level things would be fine, but as it is, they are the top tier army, they are above IG & SW.

Pointing out that they aren't OP isn't going to help their image, mainly it's because they are generally in a strong tier, with good troops, good elites, and with very few drawbacks aside from cost. I'm just tired of seeing the WAAC gamers with their unpainted proxies and their sudden GK obsession, but I can't exactly help that though, though if they had stuck with SW like before I could at least deal with them a bit easier.

Lets look at the facts as they are:

They have the best Dreadnought in the game when it comes to shooting. No one can argue that. There is of course a better close combat Dread but the Death Company Dread with Blood Talons actually has to get into close combat to be as effective and when you do the math he really isn't going to kill as much stuff as a Psyfleman.

Purifiers should have never been Troops choices. I could understand making Crowe without the drawbacks and him making one squad of them be Troops. I can live with that. When you take a squad with all the possibilities that Purifiers have and you get to take up to 6 squads of them that is quite silly.

The same would have worked for the Paladins. If you take Draigo you can take one squad of them as Troops, otherwise they are an Elites choice. That makes it a little harder to spam them really.

The Coteaz thing is really just silly in and of itself. You can take a 3 man squad of next to nothing for points and then you get to give it a Razorback. That's lunacy if I ever heard it.

By the way you may notice that Phil Kelly was given 2 codexes in his latest endeavors who rarely get updated. So he made them good enough to survive the codex creep effect. Wolves hadn't had a codex in what 8 or 9 years before he got a hold of it? So he made them with a bunch of useful units that would be able to be competitive for multiple editions. Same thing with Dark Eldar. How long did they wait for a Dex? A decade or longer. So he did the same thing with them that he did with Wolves. He knew that they wouldn't get an update for a long time so he made them to last.

Hopefully he will have the same effect on Chaos.

Reivax26 wrote:Lets look at the facts as they are:

They have the best Dreadnought in the game when it comes to shooting. No one can argue that. There is of course a better close combat Dread but the Death Company Dread with Blood Talons actually has to get into close combat to be as effective and when you do the math he really isn't going to kill as much stuff as a Psyfleman.

Purifiers should have never been Troops choices. I could understand making Crowe without the drawbacks and him making one squad of them be Troops. I can live with that. When you take a squad with all the possibilities that Purifiers have and you get to take up to 6 squads of them that is quite silly.

The same would have worked for the Paladins. If you take Draigo you can take one squad of them as Troops, otherwise they are an Elites choice. That makes it a little harder to spam them really.

The Coteaz thing is really just silly in and of itself. You can take a 3 man squad of next to nothing for points and then you get to give it a Razorback. That's lunacy if I ever heard it.

By the way you may notice that Phil Kelly was given 2 codexes in his latest endeavors who rarely get updated. So he made them good enough to survive the codex creep effect. Wolves hadn't had a codex in what 8 or 9 years before he got a hold of it? So he made them with a bunch of useful units that would be able to be competitive for multiple editions. Same thing with Dark Eldar. How long did they wait for a Dex? A decade or longer. So he did the same thing with them that he did with Wolves. He knew that they wouldn't get an update for a long time so he made them to last.

Hopefully he will have the same effect on Chaos.

When you put it like that it does make alot of sense, yeah there op now but in 6th? 7th? even 8th if DE have to wait again, are they going to be OP?

This line of reasoning has actually got me interested in 6th in a way that all the stupid rumor threads havent, im actually looking foward now to see what could happen to redress the ballance

Reivax26 wrote:

Purifiers should have never been Troops choices. I could understand making Crowe without the drawbacks and him making one squad of them be Troops. I can live with that. When you take a squad with all the possibilities that Purifiers have and you get to take up to 6 squads of them that is quite silly.

I would say either Purifiers should not be troop choices, or if every army (specifically Orks, my god) had a moderately effective Psychic defense; I'm talking damn near anything, I would be fine with the rest of the Codex.

Just anything to where Purifiers weren't quite so psychotic. I mean, there's a lot of strong, fabulous stuff in the Codex, and that's fine. I just don't appreciate the idea that my basic troop choice would get cooked in the assault against an opponents troop choice, and there is essentially no way to counter that with the Ork Codex. One unit with Psychic defense, I don't care if it costs 150 or 200 points for me to access it, and I would be fine.

3 units of Purifiers MAX taking up 3 Elite FOC slots, great, perfect, peachy, an entire list comp of Purifiers as Vanguard for a mechanized list with AC Dreads, dear God, please have mercy.

The fluff even says there is a typical galaxy-wide total of 30 Purifiers, you don't need to have all of them in one army playing a game at your local hobby mart.

Da Boss wrote:I haven't mentioned multi-assaulting at all in what I was saying though. I would never multi assault purifiers, it'd be madness!

I don't see how you can say they don't have enough quantity to deal with hordes when they can put out so much quality firepower and have the hands down best anti horde CC unit in the game.

Because they dont, shooting wise. Run the maths. All those psybacks pumping out good quality shots cant kill enough orks before they get to you. a 5+ cover save goes a long way. The real lists tend to only have points for purifiers in elites, 3 5 man units, so once youre in the lines you kill each unit very, very quickly.

As Ive said - Orks can do it. I've seen it. It gets worse when you play 2k and above, as you can afford more purifiers, but most common points are 1500 - 1850, when they just dont have the points for it.

Phil Kelly was also given Eldar, who regularly get updates, and he broke 4th edition with them. SW broke 5th edition. DE carried out this trend, with that great hallmark of PK codexes - absolutely no internal balance whatsoever.

SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Formosa wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Which goes to IG as they came first, than SW, than GK.

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Me too. *pulls up a chair and gets popcorn*

Grimtuff wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Me too. *pulls up a chair and gets popcorn*

*snitches some popcorn*

Yep, because you know, my poor Daemons only rip SW's into tiny little bits on a regular basis!
But for some reason, those 'balanced & shining examples of perfection' GK's can take 20 guys and pretty much auto-win any game against me.

But ther eyou have it folks, Phil Kelly's books are poisoning the game!
Eldar which got re-written on him, SW's who have the same undercosted transports as all marines and 2 undercosted units & DE who have one of the harshest learning curves in the game have killed 5ht edition!

nosferatu1001 wrote:DE Venomspam usually relies on getting the important stuff shot down by ravagers *first*, while suicide squads move in with venoms.

They do? Hell. I usually need alot more than 9 shots to kill all those transports I keep seeing. Especially all the ones that shrug off my Shaken and Stunned results...

The point of mentionning venoms, as you seem to have missed it, was that Ted made the hilarious claim that GK transports were the best. I pointed out a number of ways that the Phil Kelly "mandatory 10 point upgrade" venom which costs about 5pts more could be considered better than a psyback, to prove that the argument was complete nonsense - again.

And this can be a point of discussion. However, compare the utility of the gun on the two vehicles. Vs only tanks, the Psyback wins. Vs Only Infantry, (competitive, as the venom does better against GEq, the TL Psybolt AC outperforms against everything else). And vs any target (the Psyback wins) Now compare the survivability. The Venom actually evens out to almost AV11 standards by tossing in the Flickerfield against most weapons. However it is harder to hide and get a 4+ save for, and has no means of ignoring shaken, stunned, or psyker powers. Lets look at speed: Venom. No question. How about the survivability for passengers? Psyback. The guys inside are T4 with PA. Great. Now last, what about payload? The Psyback can carry no more than 6PAGK models which may have upwards of 4 Psycannons inside, (5? Can any IC's in PA take one?) So that's 16 S7 rending shots from the passengers. The Venom can take, at best, 5 riders with Blasters. 18" range S8 lances. Those models have T3 and a 5+. I won't lie: 5 lances is scary. But 16 S7 rending shots? Brown trousers time.

Nagashek - then venoms stay at 36", away from the 24" range guns, until the ravagers have killed enough transports for you to splinter the guys inside to death.

They do? Awesome! I'll have to remember that next time I have any left and remind my opponant that his twelve TL S8 shots at 48" should go at Venoms or Raiders instead so I can implement this plan.

Formosa wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Yep, IG didnt break the game *nearly* as much as SW did, quite a way before GK were even released.

Two undercosted units? I assume you're talking about GH and LF - wha about RP, who have the best LD10 psyker defence in the game, are hella cheap and customisable with an array of very, very good psychic powers (LL, MH, Jaws to a lesser extent) that can take on essentially any enemy...and so on. Not to mention the most hideous named set of units ever - wolf wolf born?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Yep, IG didnt break the game *nearly* as much as SW did, quite a way before GK were even released.

Two undercosted units? I assume you're talking about GH and LF - wha about RP, who have the best LD10 psyker defence in the game, are hella cheap and customisable with an array of very, very good psychic powers (LL, MH, Jaws to a lesser extent) that can take on essentially any enemy...and so on. Not to mention the most hideous named set of units ever - wolf wolf born?

Their naming conventions broke 5th ed.? RIIIIGGGGHHHHHHTT......

Ah, brilliant dissection there! ALmost like all you did was respond to the throwaway comment at the end, leaving any substance to your posting out

I guess I was wrong - this thread is *exactly* like all the other "GK are OP!!!!!!! the world is ending!!!" whine fests out there - no hope of actual debate about the strengths and weaknesses, just more people who cant cope with changes to the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, brilliant dissection there! ALmost like all you did was respond to the throwaway comment at the end, leaving any substance to your posting out

I guess I was wrong - this thread is *exactly* like all the other "GK are OP!!!!!!! the world is ending!!!" whine fests out there - no hope of actual debate about the strengths and weaknesses, just more people who cant cope with changes to the game.

When the absolute only way I can cope with another army is, "don't go last", I think something's gone wrong...

Funnily enough, my Daemons can crush every other army out there, so I know it's not my book that's busted as feth.

Yep, SS and Interceptors arent good for you.

You hardly see them in competitive, TAC lists though.

Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

suppose it depends on friendly game or not, id be happy to run on the assumption theres a chaos gate just behind the other guys deployment line and alot of other people would be happy to make home fixes im sure

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

Maybe YOU don't see GKSS's & Interceptors in any tourny lists in your YOUR area, but MY area is full of 'em. Any Dragiowing list for example that I've come across in recent months has included either 10 Strikes and/or 10 Interceptors as support units.
They're far cheaper than the Pallies, and really, you only need 10-15 or so Pallies to have a rock solid center. Plus, because it's not just Daemons, but also the likes of drop pods/spore pods/DoA's/Deathwing assault/etc... Warp quake has become very popular because it gives the entire GK army instant protection from any deep striking nasties like those awful meltaguns that hard-counter the Pallies rather nicely!

You also seem to be of the belief that you need 'oodles of the buggers to 110% screw over a Daemon army. (or any deep strike army for that matter)
A single 10 man squad, fully spaced out to maximise the 2" coherency rule can completely lock-off an area 30"x24"ish. That's utterly obscene! And that's the instant mishap zone alone! Of corse, if you're a smart player when deep striking, you would factor in the likelyhood of your 7" average scatter, so to 'safely' avoid the quake zone, you'd drop just over 7" away from that area, or rather, you'd drop just over the footprint of your unit away from that area.

So one squad of 10 guys has just effectively denied roughly a 3rd of your average 6'x4' table. Then factor in the likelyhood of things like impassible terrain, and you can see that ' hole quake' is perhaps the game's most broken ability...

AND just to finish it off, now imagine you're up against some rules lawyer who then uses the warp quake wording to manipulate the mishap chart and effectively gain an outright 50/50 chance of auto-destroying your entire unit. (Have fun with that! )



I don't fear a list that's included 30-40+ GKSS marines because those are few and far between, and they suffer vs alot of other optimised opponents. (they lack real psycannon spam, warp quake isn't needed in those numbers, you're not getting other big threats like henchmen or purifyers on top of your psyflemen, your assault ability is purely 'mop-up mode', etc...)
I do however fear every single GK list that has just one 10 man warp quake squad, because it will put me waaaaaaaaay back on my board edge and make the game absolutely no fun. (and like I said, in MY area, 10 warp quake capable marines are rather common in most lists!)

GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

Chaos daemons was the last codex of the 4th edition, it is newer than orks, eldar, and CSM.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

Chaos daemons was the last codex of the 4th edition, it is newer than orks, eldar, and CSM.

And it still isn't, in my opinion, executed in a good fashion and hasn't aged well. Arguably, neither has the Eldar or CSM Codex, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

Maybe YOU don't see GKSS's & Interceptors in any tourny lists in your YOUR area, but MY area is full of 'em. Any Dragiowing list for example that I've come across in recent months has included either 10 Strikes and/or 10 Interceptors as support units.
They're far cheaper than the Pallies, and really, you only need 10-15 or so Pallies to have a rock solid center. Plus, because it's not just Daemons, but also the likes of drop pods/spore pods/DoA's/Deathwing assault/etc... Warp quake has become very popular because it gives the entire GK army instant protection from any deep striking nasties like those awful meltaguns that hard-counter the Pallies rather nicely!

You also seem to be of the belief that you need 'oodles of the buggers to 110% screw over a Daemon army. (or any deep strike army for that matter)
A single 10 man squad, fully spaced out to maximise the 2" coherency rule can completely lock-off an area 30"x24"ish. That's utterly obscene! And that's the instant mishap zone alone! Of corse, if you're a smart player when deep striking, you would factor in the likelyhood of your 7" average scatter, so to 'safely' avoid the quake zone, you'd drop just over 7" away from that area, or rather, you'd drop just over the footprint of your unit away from that area.

So one squad of 10 guys has just effectively denied roughly a 3rd of your average 6'x4' table. Then factor in the likelyhood of things like impassible terrain, and you can see that ' hole quake' is perhaps the game's most broken ability...

AND just to finish it off, now imagine you're up against some rules lawyer who then uses the warp quake wording to manipulate the mishap chart and effectively gain an outright 50/50 chance of auto-destroying your entire unit. (Have fun with that! )

Thats exactly how Warp Quake was intended to be used. To create a no deep strike zone.

Your saying your Daemons are screwed because they can't deep strike near the GKs. Why on earth would you want to do that?


It seems like Daemons want to Deep Strike away from the enemy, get organized, and then start footslogging toawrds them.

I really don't see a problem here.

Why GK ruined 5th

Warp Quake (its too good). Automatic mishap, even with special gear. It should be automatic mishap, if you are equipped with special gear go to normal scatter.

5 point str upgrade to guns,

transports with TL guns that can be taken for 12 points in acolytes.

psychotroke and rad grenadtes

vehicles that ignore stunned and shaken results 91.7% of the time

SW hold not a candle to these options, most armies could deal with SW Long fang spam or T.Wolf, they were infantry and had to get out to do stuff and their vehicles were not nearly as spamable or as resilient. Matt Ward was a glorified receptionist and the folks at GW that passed on the GK codex and allowed this ruined the meta so basicly you either take an all AV14 army and hope to face GK or just just take as many AT weapons as possible. There is very little diverity because of the glaring oversites in the GK codex.

If people play actual GK they are fairly easy to deal with when people play the psyspam its just annoying lame and unfluffy but that has never stopped the WAAC's.

GK have too many near automatic or automatic effects which really ruins a game of chance (rolling dice).

Compare Above mention GK abilities to the dreaded MSS. MSS is a great peice of wargear on a ld 10 character 50% of the time you fail. Its still worth its points. It can be mitigated by intelegent players by taking advanage of the B2B randomization and requirement. MSS is an example of good design.

GK are an example of bad design.
Psychotroke and rad grenades always go off, no way to mitigate very cheap for effect.
+1 str super cheap as well comparable abilities are almost unheard of and if availible cast an order of magnitude more. Flashgits +5 points per model, and they are BS2, not TL BS4.
Ingore shake or stunned 91% of the time, extra amror cost 10-15 points for everyone and still leaves you shaken. Living metal 50% success on ignoring stunned.

The ability to really buy transports without anything of value to transport.

GK are poorly designed and honeslty if you disagree you are probably dishonest or lack the fundemental analytical skills god gave a june bug.

I like several of the GK players I play against but they play fluffy armies even draigowing is completely acceptable. I never consider IG, SW, or BA to be as bad as the GK in terms of game breaking mechanics and design.

tgf wrote:
5 point str upgrade to guns,

All of them? Just the ones on razorbacks? Just the ones on dreadnoughts? You should quantify these things, otherwise someone can just stick their tongue out and go, "nuh-uh!", like has been happening back and forth this entire thread.

transports with TL guns that can be taken for 12 points in acolytes.

And? They get at most 6 of those. IG can chimeraspam in even greater numbers, albeit more expensively, and in a lot of ways, chimeras are almost as good. If you can't deal with a razorspam list that has 18 REALLY flimsy models for troops, well...

psychostroke and rad grenades

The grenades are nasty and unnecessary, sure. So was JotWW.

vehicles that ignore stunned and shaken results 91.7% of the time

The only army I feel like lives or dies by keeping vehicles stunned nowadays is Nids. At least, that I can think of. Are Necrons still "glance or bust"?

SW hold not a candle to these options, most armies could deal with SW Long fang spam or T.Wolf, they were infantry and had to get out to do stuff and their vehicles were not nearly as spamable or as resilient. Matt Ward is a slow and the folks at GW that passed on the GK codex and allowed this ruined the meta so basically you either take an all AV14 army and hope to face GK or just just take as many AT weapons as possible. There is very little diversity because of the glaring oversights in the GK codex.

I really don't see how much harder it is to kill a psyfleman than it is a LF squad. Different to kill, sure, but not harder. A lucky lascannon vs a torrent of fire. I'd say for a lot of armies, killing the psyfleman is actually easier.

If people play actual GK they are fairly easy to deal with when people play the psyspam its just annoying lame and unfluffy but that has never stopped the WAAC's.

I'm not sure what this means.

As an afterthought, I wanted to clarify that this section of my post was not directed at tgf, nor at any particular member of the board, but rather my attitude on the 'issue' as a whole:
My point is, there has always been a codex or two that is top tier, and that's GK right now. For a while, it was SW that were a little too good, previously it was Orks that had their moment, then Eldar, then CSM. My point is that the tears and gnashing of teeth DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING. It doesn't make the GK go away. It doesn't make GW appear, take away your opponent's GK codex and replace it with the DH one. This is all just a nonstop, borderline obsessive circlejerk that doesn't add any value to much of anything, except continue to blow the 'situation' that much more out of proportion, especially mere weeks before 6th edition is supposed to rein them in. Save the tears up and see if they're needed then, not now.

daedalus wrote:

tgf wrote:
psychostroke and rad grenades

The grenades are nasty and unnecessary, sure. So was JotWW.

True, but Jaws can be stopped via psychic defence but there is no anti-grenade defence.

daedalus wrote:

tgf wrote:SW hold not a candle to these options, most armies could deal with SW Long fang spam or T.Wolf, they were infantry and had to get out to do stuff and their vehicles were not nearly as spamable or as resilient. Matt Ward is a slow and the folks at GW that passed on the GK codex and allowed this ruined the meta so basically you either take an all AV14 army and hope to face GK or just just take as many AT weapons as possible. There is very little diversity because of the glaring oversights in the GK codex.

I really don't see how much harder it is to kill a psyfleman than it is a LF squad. Different to kill, sure, but not harder. A lucky lascannon vs a torrent of fire. I'd say for a lot of armies, killing the psyfleman is actually easier.

I'd agree with this, apart from when the Dreadnought is venerable.

Honestly, I would say that currently Grey Knights are cheesey than Space Wolves, I know that Space Wolves do have some whacky, nasty little rules of their own, like being able to split Wolf Guard into different squads, come on the backside of the board with Wolf Scouts, and split fire with Long Fangs, but in terms of army builds there isn't much that Space Wolves can do that Grey Knights don't do better. That said, I completely agree with Daedalus, whining isn't going to make any difference, and there is always going to be one Codex that everyone sees as slightly more powerful than the others, and people will moan about how OP it is.

@tgf - You forgot DCA .

i agree with a lot of you but may i put a sinario forward

first of all can you fit this in a 600pt list?

draigo

1 dread knight

1 terminator squad 5 strong

1 strike squad 5 strong

and a squad of paladins 5 strong

If not a guy i know is owed a kick in the meat and veg

No way can that fit in 600 points.

Draigo and the Terminators alone is 475 points.


Thats easily a 1000 point list with only minimal upgrades.

No. Draigo is 275 points iirc and paladins are 55 points each plus options.

No, not a chance.

EDIT: Double d

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

SW broke Black Templars? huh? Nothing about the SW codex prevents my black templars from setting up on the table. I have two space wolf players in my area and have played them often with my templars and every game has been relatively close with the balance of our books never even being brought up as a deciding factor.

Now my chaos daemons on the other hand? GK pay a single point to get 2 initiative and strike at the same time as my Slaanesh daemons. The game is over the second I ask someone if they want to play and he puts down grey knights.

Here is a challenge for you and a friend. one of you make a space wolf list knowing your opponent will be making a black templar list. Have the other person do the same with templars. Play the game. Was it a fun game? It should be unless one of you has no idea what you are doing.
Now do the same with Grey Knights and daemons. Did the game last past turn 2? If yes, you did it wrong.

GK are a plague upon 40k. but GW loves it because they are selling tons of marine models because of them. I just hope they get a codex early in 6th. Not because they need it like the older books do. But because the game as a whole needs GK toned down.