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This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

For starters, My Wolves HAVE to have some kind of delivery system to get into Melee/not get Psi-bolted to death which is fine, this is 5th ed, I'm used to transport spam by now. I knew he brings max Psi-dreads, so I took two land raiders. The game starts, and he has servo skulls set up EVERYWHERE! He then proceeds to hit one of my land raiders with one of his three tech marines,(who have conversion beamers, and orbital relays, and were with strike squads) Luckily I roll my cover save from popping smoke. By the end of the game, one land raider was down, and the other was messed up, and my vindicator was toast, from the relay. which costs a whopping 50 points, and when it hits, is the best AT weapon in the game.

The next thing is, since when should an army be allowed to have a unit that can take grenades that allow it to not just even the playing field in a melee, but COMPLETELY unbalance it in their favor? I had: Grimnar, Ragnar, a storm shield frost blade, saga of the bear Wolf lord, and six wolf guard with power weapons.He had, a techmarine(with psychotroke), and a 10 man strike squad, he proceeds to lower me to 1 attack per guy, and I'm convinced the only reason I won by three kills is because I did the "High King" special rule, and had preferred enemy. All told, my squad was 858 points, not even counting the land raider to get them there. His probably didn't even break 250-275pts. Maybe in an alternate universe this would seem fair, but to me, GK just seem stacked, with things like Psychotroke nades, and the laundry list of other things they can do.

My ultimate question is: does anyone else feel the same way? I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves, GK seem like they have the Cheese built right in their wargear. I hope this isn't a trend, because Ward Gave Crons a similar thing with Mindshackle scarabs, though not quite as bad, but he needs to stop this whole : "lets make nades that can win you an assault by a huge margin, even if you are 600pts lower than the squad assaulting you!" Please remember, this is just my 10 cents, and I just wanted to hear other people's thought's on the subject.

bobamus87 wrote:I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves

Keep telling yourself that.


I can accept that there's some things in the GK Codex that could use some toning down, mainly Psychotroke Grenades and Halberd, but CONVERSION BEAMERS?! The solution to the squad you fought would've been to shoot them. They die just as easily as any other Marine team, if you charge into them you're playing on their terms.

I think GK are excellent across the board which is a problem for everyone else. They have excellent shooting, they have excellent assault, excellent psykers, excellent heroes and characters... so on and so forth. If you were to compare the standard additional GK with the standard additional marine (in their army list) and what each of them have as rules and equipment you'll see the problem in its most basic form.

My question was did you adjust your tactics to fighting them. Grey Knights are the worst army in the world for MEQs to assault, all of those Force Weapons. But they are only overpriced Marines for the most part. Like most they have some tricks up their sleeves, but they are venerable to most things that kill marines. This was also your first time fighting them I guess.
Something to remember:
-Space Wolves are a Medium Ranged Shooting Army with Superior Counter Assault Ability.
-Grey Knights are a Medium Range Shooting Army with Superior Assault Ability vs. MEQs.

A Gunline Plasma Armed Space Wolf Army could inflict real damage to a Grey Knight Army.
Njal has the possibility to shut down their Physic Powers.
Long Fangs should do horrible things to the Dreads.

Grey Knights are not Over Powered, just Very Powerful.

Basically, you did everything wrong. His list wasn't even a really optimized one.

He can't fire his Orbital Relys and his Conversion Beamers at the same time AFAIK.


GKs are an army that you need to out shoot. Long Fang spam can counter Psyflmen dreadnoughts but just accept that Stunning and Shaking isn't good enough, you need to kill the Dreadnoughts.

Purifiers and Strike Squads love getting into Melee with MEQs because they all have force weapons. So shoot them to death and they arn't any better then normal Marines.


A 26 point purifier dies just as easily as a 16 point Grey Hunter remember that. GKs have increased damage output because, point for point, they are less durable.

for 300 points you can get 10 Purifiers with gear OR 18 Grey Hunters with some gear. The Purifiers are easier to kill.

GKs have very little damage mitigation aside from increasing their inititive to strike first. Its a very steep premium they pay too.

GK are powerful, this much is true, but SW are more OP than them in terms of overall power. Cheap units, weapons, rules and other crap go a long way.

GK are definitely strong army.
Few points:
-Psychotrope Grenades are definitely OP. And very bad mechanic.
-GK are basically tailor made to take out TWC.

Conversion beamers are IMO quite poor. To get S10 AP1 you'd have to be over 42" from the Techmarine after scatter. And under 18" it is S6 AP-.
So if he has Techmarine joined with 10-man Strike squad, he is has only 6" range where Strikes can shoot and Beamer is S8 AP4.

Same goes for OSR. They always scatter the full 2D6. No reduction for BS. No reduction for servo-skull. Will also scatter when hit is rolled.
Land Raiders are large targets so OSR will hit it ~20-30% time (7 inches long, 6 inches wide, 3" radius template).

Techmarine with Conversion beamer, 3x servo skulls, Psychotrope grenades and OSR is 1W IC costing 184 points with no invuln save. He will die in first round of combat, that's for sure. Add strikes and the unit is ~400 points.

bobamus87 wrote:This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

Anytime you make a post about how "army 'x' is OP!!1!" is techinically a flame thread...
We know 40k is woefully unbalanced. If you play an older army, you go into each game knowing the much more recent books will have a huge advantage over you. If you play a Xenos force, you know your learning curve is a helluva lot bigger than the 'beginner friendly' spesh mehreens!!! And so on and so on...

Sure, Ward's an idiot who only 200% destroyed an entire edition of Fantasy, but he's done some decent work in 40k with the Codex: Space Marines being an overall really well balanced book. Necrons also seem pretty tame overall, but we'll see what 6th edition brings.
Still, while BA's are highly obnoxious and GK's are an outright -you to Daemon & Tyranid players, you haven't felt the true scale of when Ward *really* makes an OP book until you've suffered Daemons in 7th edtion fantasy...

bobamus87 wrote:My ultimate question is: does anyone else feel the same way? I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves, GK seem like they have the Cheese built right in their wargear. I hope this isn't a trend, because Ward Gave Crons a similar thing with Mindshackle scarabs, though not quite as bad, but he needs to stop this whole : "lets make nades that can win you an assault by a huge margin, even if you are 600pts lower than the squad assaulting you!" Please remember, this is just my 10 cents, and I just wanted to hear other people's thought's on the subject.

As a SW player, your two 'best' units are also highly undercosted, meaning SW filth is right alongside GK/BA/IG filth as being amongst the stinkiest crap to have ever befouled 40k... SW's spam builds are no less 'power gamer/WAAC's' than the likes of 4th edition's eldar 'flying circus' or 'Nidzilla spams, or the even earlier 3.5 Iron Warriors and 'siren daemonbombs' or 'Seer congress' and so on and so on...

Now, yes, GK's are excessively over the top in their filthy choices. Psychotrokes, halberds being a 'better' MoS, psybolts being stupid-cheap, fortitude, warp quake...

Now, envision this; try being the poor sod who plays Daemons.
At least as SW's you get to put your models on the table...



So yes, GK's are totally OP with the right build.
But then every single army has at least one OP build that can make any game into an 'easy mode/insta-win'.

Experiment 626 wrote:
But then every single army has at least one OP build that can make any game into an 'easy mode/insta-win'.

Go ahead and show me a Tau list that does that. Or a nid list. Or a sisters list. Or a Demons list. Or an eldar list. Go right ahead. And make sure it will instant win vs GK, SW and IG.

I won't be waiting.

I think he meant 'every PA army with a codex release in the last year or two '

It seems to be a case of knowing what to target when you play against Grey Knights.

ShatteredBlade wrote:It seems to be a case of knowing what to target when you play against Grey Knights.

Huh?

Purifiers have 2 Psycannons per 5 models (with Fearless)...

Psydreads have 2 ACs and Fortitude.

Both are valid targets, both are equally difficult to wipe off the board and carry a substantial opportunity cost. I would think that if you were playing IG you would be afforded the luxury of a long range AP3 blast template for efficient Purifier melting, but not everyone has something that accessible.

I'm not even sure what GK list people are building where a single unit on the board isn't a lucrative target. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe you can elaborate - what are your strategies for defeating Grey Knights? What do you mean by "knowing what to target?" Do you mean that there is an inherent target priority, and that following that target priority will make things go easier? What kinds of units or what kinds of lists are you referring to?

Experiment 626 wrote:
As a SW player, your two 'best' units are also highly undercosted,

SO TRUE, Long Fangs compared to Devastators, lolwtf

Experiment 626 wrote:
Now, yes, GK's are excessively over the top in their filthy choices. Psychotrokes, halberds being a 'better' MoS, psybolts being stupid-cheap, fortitude, warp quake...

Fortitude is ludicrous, but I cannot imagine why anyone would want a Force Weapon upgrade to carry a better initiative than a CSM with MoS. Matching MoS is one thing, but it's fair to say that Halberds effectively null MoS, which is a shade of insane I don't dare dwell on for too long.

Halberds should give +1I.

Ascalam wrote:I think he meant 'every PA army with a codex release in the last year or two '

It's sad that this is the state of GW apologetics.

I mean really sad.

Now, envision this; try being the poor sod who plays Daemons.

I do play daemons, and its not all that bad against GK
Granted warpquake really is an issue, but its one you can get past.
Also, keep in mind most armies will shoot GK to death, this is something a daemons army cant do. (even mono tzeentch will struggle to do so)

Its just a case of playing cheese against cheese.
Nothing wrong with skulltaker and a herald on jugger leading 8 crushers.
Then 2 more units of 8 crushers on the flanks.
While fateweaver sits near by.

Grey Templar wrote:
GKs are an army that you need to out shoot. Long Fang spam can counter Psyflmen dreadnoughts but just accept that Stunning and Shaking isn't good enough, you need to kill the Dreadnoughts.

Purifiers and Strike Squads love getting into Melee with MEQs because they all have force weapons. So shoot them to death and they arn't any better then normal Marines.

Oh yeah, great, lemme just get out my Blood Angels Codex and fix you right up a list that will outshoot GKs and not have to get into CC with any of your force weapons.

Oh wait, it seems that such a list doesn't exist.

Hot tip, Purifiers also love getting into melee with multi wound models, high base initiative models, Slaanesh models, and Horde armies. Oh, and they can get a situational 5S or instant death, so they can instant kill Nobs and Meganobs, ICs, and MCs.

Oh, and then there's the fun fact that Purifiers outshoot Tacs and Assault Marines. What Marine list is outshooting GKs, exactly?

Grey Templar wrote:
GKs have very little damage mitigation aside from increasing their inititive to strike first. Its a very steep premium they pay too.

Yeah, and all they get for it is Power Weapons for every unit in the Codex, I6, 5 point Thunder Hammers, +1 Strength or FWA, and Storm Bolters. Everyone feel sorry for them.

If you can't figure out a way to kill very expensive T4 3+ save models they you probably should go play Warmachine.

Yes, they are OP. They're not as game-breakingly bad as people make them out to be, they're not an insta-win even in their WAAC competitive builds, but they are probably the most unbalanced codex at the moment, or tied with SW for that title.

Allow me to demonstrate my logic. Take your basic Grey Knight Strike Squad member. 20 points per model, if I remember correctly. For that, you get a force weapon, a storm bolter and psychic powers.

Now let's say I wanna recreate that kind of gear in any other MEQ codex. Well, psychic powers and such you can't get at all. But getting a power weapon, closest thing to a force weapon available. That's +15 points for an upgrade. Added onto the 15-16 point base cost for your basic tac marine (depending on codex) that's 30-31 points just for the power weapon. Throw on a storm bolter, which is usually a 3 point upgrade and we're talking 33-34 points per model. This isn't factoring in any of the GK's psychic powers.

This is the crux of why they are so potent. Unless you're playing Draigowing or a TEQ army, you can come close to matching the numbers of other MEQ armies, while being better man for man. Grey Knights are supposed to be small, elite armies? You wouldn't know it from the numbers they can field.

858 points? Quite a lot of eggs in one basket. Anyways, I hate the new codex. Just doesn't seem too good. You can do anything with the new codex and come out on top most of the time. I have no problem with Henchmen, they're actually pretty cool. My 10 cents.

-Wolf Guard 252

I have played GK many times now and have done pretty well. Its because I just accepted right from the get go the I wasn't, under any circumstances going to beat them in close combat. It just isnt going to happen.

Everytime I've beaten them its because I applied good target priority with the right kind of firepower. Although, I think as it stands Necrons is one of the best armies for fighting GK right now. So, I guess I have it easier than most.

SW are not overpowered. They are not close combat gods with Force Weapons who pay 5pts to make the str of their gun go up by 1 on a Dreadnought that comes with the equivalent of Daemonic Possession.

As I have said in other threads, I don't blame the Grey Knight players for playing the army as it isn't their fault that the development team at GW are complete idiots with no sense of balance in a game whatsoever.

Wolves get Long Fangs for cheap...ok its a Devastator squad that can split fire but almost always has to be up in a building somewhere to get the maximum fire arcs that it wants. Unless Logan Grimnar is with them, they aren't moving and firing. Thunderwolves can be wrecked by a lot of stuff nowadays. Rune Priests with Jaws didn't get mentioned but is worth of mentioning. In certain situations, Jaws rocks. Then again it doesn't always work. Look at how many armies nowdays have Psychic Defense that can basically shut it down.

Have you seen all the Poison weapons that the Dark Eldar can bring to the table? That army disheartened me so bad I sold my Daemons after my 5th straight loss to them in which every one of my monstrous creatures died the turn they landed in every game.

Necrons have their OP stuff too and so do the Blood Angels. Death Company Dread with double Blood Talons comes to mind. A guy I know lost 23 Orks out of a 25 man squad to one of these monsters...

How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such?

When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves

Keep telling yourself that.


I can accept that there's some things in the GK Codex that could use some toning down, mainly Psychotroke Grenades and Halberd, but CONVERSION BEAMERS?! The solution to the squad you fought would've been to shoot them. They die just as easily as any other Marine team, if you charge into them you're playing on their terms.

I wasn't even complaining about beamers, I deployed in such a way to where I negated the danger they posed, it was his orbital strike's that were killing me, and as far as plasma(in reply to a different poster) I brought plenty, 18 combi plasma's, perhaps even that wasn't enough though. And plasma cannon devastators get eaten alive by psibolt, I'll have to buy some more transports, and keep them in them, and move them to a good firing postition next time, and pray They don't eat a million psi-dread shots, and when they get out, get hit by psi-stacked ammo. My biggest complaint was nothing more than, their average marine is 20pts per man, and for 5 points more than a Grey hunter, gets a storm bolter(which will hit at S5 if the person has half a brain cell) and a weapon that can instant kill things, and cast hammer hand, to hit at S5 in cc as well. It's that they are good at pretty much everything, and their only downside, isn't even that bad, in that they are slightly higher pts cost.

Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Reivax26 wrote:SW are not overpowered. They are not close combat gods with Force Weapons who pay 5pts to make the str of their gun go up by 1 on a Dreadnought that comes with the equivalent of Daemonic Possession.

As I have said in other threads, I don't blame the Grey Knight players for playing the army as it isn't their fault that the development team at GW are complete idiots with no sense of balance in a game whatsoever.

Wolves get Long Fangs for cheap...ok its a Devastator squad that can split fire but almost always has to be up in a building somewhere to get the maximum fire arcs that it wants. Unless Logan Grimnar is with them, they aren't moving and firing. Thunderwolves can be wrecked by a lot of stuff nowadays. Rune Priests with Jaws didn't get mentioned but is worth of mentioning. In certain situations, Jaws rocks. Then again it doesn't always work. Look at how many armies nowdays have Psychic Defense that can basically shut it down.

Have you seen all the Poison weapons that the Dark Eldar can bring to the table? That army disheartened me so bad I sold my Daemons after my 5th straight loss to them in which every one of my monstrous creatures died the turn they landed in every game.

Necrons have their OP stuff too and so do the Blood Angels. Death Company Dread with double Blood Talons comes to mind. A guy I know lost 23 Orks out of a 25 man squad to one of these monsters...

SW are overpowered, the rest of your points are valid i agree for the most part, but SW are most definatly over powered, as a DA player i had my time of cheese (a few months in 3rd lol) but would bloody kill for the cheese that is the basic grey hunter squad, let alone long fangs, rune priest psy defence, rune priest psy powers (living lightning wtf!!) thunderwolves, sagas, welll the whole dex (you can keep blood claws lol), i cannot wait until the DA dex omes out and we get 10 man dev sqauds with all lascannons (2 shots cos we is bad angels) for 100pts...for all 10, then the cheese shall be on the other.... foot?

Grey Templar wrote:How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such?

When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

Nonsense.

The whole reason it's "useless" from your perspective is because only an idiot would use CC ICs w/o EW against GKs. And likewise people don't even consider Meganobz any more, and Warbosses/Nobs are simply inadvisable against GKs. Likewise, downplaying its significance against MCs is incredibly disingenuous. You're acting as though it doesn't exist.

There's no opportunity cost associated with that. You just have it, for free, on every PA model. You don't even realize that it exists. That's so ridiculous. Imagine if you had to spend 10 points on that upgrade.

Imagine a world where a SM player could actually consider a SM captain or where an Ork player could actually use Meganobz.

But aside from that, JW, but you do realize that you get a Power Weapon on a 20 point model? Do you appreciate or even recognize that? Do you realize that other codexes have to actually -pay- for their Power Weapons, or has that even occurred to you? Has it occurred to you that every other codex has to pay 25 points for their Power Fists, and you can spend 30 points and get a GKSS w/ a Force Hammer?

Grey Templar wrote:Keep in mind, they can't be both Str5 and Instant Death at the same time. Unless you attach a very expensive character to the squad.

Oh, well, okay, that makes everything cool. You can only have one or the other.

Now when I assault a Nob unit into your Purifiers I'm still going to get instant death'd, but at least it's not going to be at strength 5.

Yeah the Dark Angels are going to get the Ward treatment. I really liked the rumor about the Plasma Cannon Predator variant and the idea of their Plasma's not overheating at all. To be honest I don't think the "Gets Hot" rule should even exist in the game as it is completely stupid. They can make ships capable of Warp Travel but they can't make a Plasma weapon that doesn't overheat....seriously?

Reivax26 wrote:Yeah the Dark Angels are going to get the Ward treatment. I really liked the rumor about the Plasma Cannon Predator variant and the idea of their Plasma's not overheating at all. To be honest I don't think the "Gets Hot" rule should even exist in the game as it is completely stupid. They can make ships capable of Warp Travel but they can't make a Plasma weapon that doesn't overheat....seriously?

You're wearing power armor. Get over it. It's a 1 in 6 and then a 1 in 3. You get an armor save. If it's that big of a deal play BAs and grab a FnP bubble, then you can cut it in half.

Its not that I have a problem using them and they keep overheating its the whole idea that in the 41st millenium they haven't figured out how to keep it from happening. The Tau at least smartened up a bit and decided to lower the power on theirs so they wouldn't but it still is quite silly that the rule exists at all.

Plasma works vs. GK, figure a Grey Hunter Squad with 2 Plasma Guns and a Wolf Guard with a Combi-Plasma could wipe out half a Paladin Squad in one volley. Missile Launchers firing Krak or Las Cannons will ID any Paladin. A Vindicator will also crush any squad it impacts on.
You have to remember the Optimum Range for Grey Knights is 24”
Space Wolves are 12”-24”
Unless the Grey Knights Deep Strike or are loaded up on Storm Ravens they have to cross into your guns for at least one Turn.
If you have Njal or 1-2 Rune Priest Deep Striking will become an issue for Grey Knights.

You take a Loganwing you can field an entire 3+/3++ with 3 models with Eternal Warrior.
-Logan: all Attacks can cause ID, hits on a 3+
-Arjac: All of his Attacks will cause ID, hits on a 3+
-Wolf Lord in Terminator Armor with Chain Fist, Storm Shield Wolf Tooth Necklace, and Saga of the Bear. All of his Attacks will Cause ID, hits on a 3+
I run a pair of Lone Wolves that can kill off a 5 man Grey Knight Squad in close combat in only a full turn. [Power Armor, Storm Shield, MotW]. If you drop the MotW for a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer all Attacks will Cause ID.
The emphasis on Instant Death: Paladins. Vs. the models above.
With that combo I am fielding 5 Eternal Warriors.

The other thing to remember is all of the Wolf Tail Talismans you can field.

I would not look at the Grey Knights vs. Space Wolves as two Over Power Armies, but if played well one of the most Epic Battles you could have.

And Paladins require a different strategy then "How do I kill them?"

Because they answer to that question is "You can't!"



Paladins are however incredibly expensive, but also slow. They can't take any DTs, and might not even be able to afford a LR even if they could take one.

Avoid them and play the mission. If its Kill Points you might have an issue but otherwise Paladins are incredibly difficult to pull a win with.

There is a reason that TH/SS terminators are rarely used as foot sloggers. Paladins have the same issue but are 3 times as expensive.

I was also thinking Sternguard would do well.
My normal is a Sergeant with Power Fist/Combi-Plasma, 2 Plasma Guns and the other 7 with Combi-Plasmas.
The Second Sternguard is loaded with Melta

With the Combi-Weapons and Special Ammunition, they should do well.