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captain collius wrote:Truth templar

I think everyone need to keep in mind how easy it is to cut the knights to blood ribbons at long range.

Its not that easy to be fair, this isnt because of the Knights themselves to be fair, there is always plenty of cover for both Dreads and infantry, and las/plas razors are very good at shooting along side the dreads.

A misconception a few people seem to be having is that GK are "just space marines" and are easy to kill, space marines are not easy to kill, 3+ saves are very very good and paladins 2+ (and normal termies) is great too, plop them in cover and its even better, now like i said this applies to all marines not just GK

Space marines arent difficult to kill at range - just ask venomspam DE players, or shoota boyz ork players, which outshoot on foot marines by a fair amount.

Its getting them out the vehicles which is the harder part, usually .

Their prevalence means most armies are geared to kill marines - the cries of "OP!" generally come from people who try the same tactics as, after all, they're just marines, and expect them to work just as well. Its like when eldar appeared in 4th - if you tried the usual tactics you got stomped by the flying circus.

No. They are not unbalanced or OP. Not at all.

Daemonhammer@ Are you serious with that comment? They aren't unbalanced? I am really hoping you were being sarcastic because if not that is the craziest statement I have ever seen posted on a forum.

Of course they are overpowered. I heard it said on another forum that the 3.5 codex for Chaos was a deliberate thing done on the part of the guy who wrote it so that his army could be the best army in 40k (Pete Haines with his Iron Warriors in case anyone forgot).

Now whether that is true or not I don't know. What I do know is that GW caught an unholy amount of flack over the 7th ed Daemon codex in Fantasy and from everything I have heard about it much deserved flack.

So what happens for 5th edition Grey Knights, they give the codex over to the guy that broke a whole edition of Fantasy and he decides to make up for his mistakes by making the Daemon Hunter army in 40k the best army hands down.

Its one of the main reasons why I am so glad he isn't doing the Chaos Dex for 6th. Phil Kelly writes really good codexes and maybe just maybe he can write a dex that makes people actually want to play Chaos again. I picked up my Chaos Marines shortly after I heard he was writing the dex because I knew it wouldn't be a travesty like the GK dex was.

I could almost get over their OP if the fluff wasn't so damn terrible. A Space Marine carved his name into Mortarion's chest and lived to tell the tale? That is so stupid that it sounds like a 6 year old wrote it.

Its one of the main reasons why I am so glad he isn't doing the Chaos Dex for 6th. Phil Kelly writes really good codexes and maybe just maybe he can write a dex that makes people actually want to play Chaos again. I picked up my Chaos Marines shortly after I heard he was writing the dex because I knew it wouldn't be a travesty like the GK dex was.

Phil kelly does write good codex's, he's written at least mid-tier, and of course his two overpowered codexs (4th edition falcondar, and 5th edition space wolves)

Of course they are overpowered. I heard it said on another forum that the 3.5 codex for Chaos was a deliberate thing done on the part of the guy who wrote it so that his army could be the best army in 40k (Pete Haines with his Iron Warriors in case anyone forgot).

The 3.5 was written by not one person, but 5 people, Andy chambers, Pete Haines, Andy Hoare, Phil Kelly, and Graham Mcneill.

That's a complete BS rumor to say the least though.

So what happens for 5th edition Grey Knights, they give the codex over to the guy that broke a whole edition of Fantasy and he decides to make up for his mistakes by making the Daemon Hunter army in 40k the best army hands down.

He also made 8th edition fantasy, which fixed the horrible mess of daemons (Which are beatable now) and nerfed the godly spellcasters of the VC and DE armies, and VC got a nice update that put them in an alright spot.

Not to mention the edition is actually pretty good and fun to play, so I think he succeeded there at least, and the set of fantasy books in 8th is perhaps the most balanced since 6th edition warhammer fantasy. Which is a lovely thing.

Related, so glad Gav Thorpe isn't writing, he did up 7th first with DE and VC to begin with...

So by that math then if "He who shall not be named" wrote the majority of 6th ed then it should fix whats wrong with 40k now too since he fixed Fantasy with 8th?

We shall see. If anyone else wants to hold their breath by all means go ahead. I'll believe it when I see it in front of me.

Reivex - erm, you do realise IW werent that broken in 3rd / 4th? It was daemonbomb that did the majority of the damage, IW were a one trick pony that was mediocre at best once you figured that trick out.

Its a lot like the hard counter to GK tends to be foot orks - the *actual* GK lists you see are light on purifiers, heavy on cheap henchmen in psybacks (unless you play at 2500, a level the game is just silly at - ake everything you want!) - so 25ish units of boyz, backed by kannon and loota for vehicle cracking, do very well. Psybacks and psyriflemen do badly when facing that many bodies - theyre quality, not quantity.

Reivax26 wrote:Its one of the main reasons why I am so glad he isn't doing the Chaos Dex for 6th. Phil Kelly writes really good codexes and maybe just maybe he can write a dex that makes people actually want to play Chaos again. I picked up my Chaos Marines shortly after I heard he was writing the dex because I knew it wouldn't be a travesty like the GK dex was.

Yes, Space Wolves are truly a bastion of excellent Codex design.

Reivax26 wrote:I could almost get over their OP if the fluff wasn't so damn terrible. A Space Marine carved his name into Mortarion's chest and lived to tell the tale? That is so stupid that it sounds like a 6 year old wrote it.

I'm not going to go into why I think you're completely wrong here, but "wolf wolf wolf wolf" is better than the GK fluff?

Reivax26 wrote:Daemonhammer@ Are you serious with that comment? They aren't unbalanced? I am really hoping you were being sarcastic because if not that is the craziest statement I have ever seen posted on a forum.

Not agreeing with you is not the same as being silly or sarcastic.

Formosa wrote:
A misconception a few people seem to be having is that GK are "just space marines" and are easy to kill, space marines are not easy to kill, 3+ saves are very very good and paladins 2+ (and normal termies) is great too, plop them in cover and its even better, now like i said this applies to all marines not just GK

They're more expensive with no improvement in defensive capabilities. They're just as easy to kill as other Space Marines, and you can drone on all you want about 3+ and 2+ saves, Marines die just fine to torrent of fire. Cover also works more in the favour of, for example, Orks and Imperial Guard, than it does for Grey Knights, due to the GK (and all Space Marines in general) already paying for that 3+ save, whereas the cheaper, horde-style armies get what is essentially a 4+ save for free.

Walrus, you're paying 25 points for a Power Fist. A GK pays 5-10 points for a Thunder Hammer.

He gets a Power Sword included in the cost of every model. You pay 15 points to attach a Power Sword to one model.

He gets Storm Bolters included in the cost of every model. You are usually not given the option for Storm Bolters - but when you are, it is a 3 point upgrade. And of course, he receives, for a five point premium, a psychic ability called Fortitude resolved against a Leadership ten, whereas you must pay 15 points for armor plates. And is it not understood that GK vehicles are more survivable? Why is this not noted by GK apologists? Why do you not note that 2 out of 6 damage results are mitigated on a 5/6 Psychic Test, and incidentally 2 of the 5 damage results that prevent shooting? Do you not recognize that this is a fabulous boon for their AC Dreads?

So first, the thing you should recognize is that your GK army will fare better in transports. Your transports are better than another army's transports, cost-for-cost, and because they have an easier time continuing to shoot each turn, you might as well get Razorbacks with Psybolt.

Second, you get more firepower per Marine, and better CC capabilities. You can get a S9 Thunder Hammer for 5 points on a Purifier Squad or 10 points on a Strike Squad. Given that a Tac Marine squad pays 25 points for a Power Fist, that means you are already at a 15-20 point discount cost-for-cost. So I don't buy this argument that GKs suffer from a serious deficit in bodies. Write us up a list of equivalent firepower on GK/Tac - note I said firepower, not CC capability - and compare the body counts, and we will see how dramatically GKs suffer in this respect.

TedNugent wrote:Walrus, you're paying 25 points for a Power Fist. A GK pays 5-10 points for a Thunder Hammer.

Oh look, you're back with this same tired, discredited by the dozens argument again....

10 points for a A1 TH vs 25 points for A2 on a WG attached to that squad

TedNugent wrote:He gets a Power Sword included in the cost of every model. You pay 15 points to attach a Power Sword to one model.

Oh look, youre back with this same tired, discredited argument again

They *have* to pay for it, so pay *less* than squads where it is an *option*.

TedNugent wrote:He gets Storm Bolters included in the cost of every model. You are usually not given the option for Storm Bolters - but when you are, it is a 3 point upgrade.

That you can choose to get. You also lack the 2CCW bonus that other armies can manage, so while the quality of attacks is better, you dont get the quantity. So armies that dont care about quality, like Orks, DE Wyches, and so on, could care less that you have a powersword.

TedNugent wrote:And of course, he receives, for a five point premium, a psychic ability called Fortitude resolved against a Leadership ten, whereas you must pay 15 points for armor plates.
And is it not understood that GK vehicles are more survivable? Why is this not noted by GK apologists? Why do you not note that 2 out of 6 damage results are mitigated on a 5/6 Psychic Test, and incidentally 2 of the 5 damage results that prevent shooting? Do you not recognize that this is a fabulous boon for their AC Dreads?

Extra Armour works 100% of the time, g'teed, and is great at keeping transports and walkers moving - in theory the main role for them. Not only can you fail the psychic check, you can perils causing another glancing hit, likely leaving you in the same situation of not shooting as before, and it can be stopped. You're neglecting in your oh-so-insightful isolationist arguments that SW negate that power 50%+ of the time, most MEQ armies 1/3rd of the time and Eldar, with only just ONE farseer (when usually you get two) drop that 5/6 down to failing on average, and perils considerably more often.

And GK Apologists, really? When your arguments fail you resort to attacking the poster? Brilliant strategy, sure to win all arguments you participate in.

TedNugent wrote:So first, the thing you should recognize is that your GK army will fare better in transports. Your transports are better than another army's transports, cost-for-cost, and because they have an easier time continuing to shoot each turn, you might as well get Razorbacks with Psybolt.

Joy, yet more generalist false statements. 3 shot psyback <<<<<< 12 shot venom, with built in 5++ and wounding everything on 4+ against infantry, esp massed foot orks and the like, allows more models to fire out, allows you to move the transport, run and assault with combat troops, as opposed to waiting a turn after getting in position.

Your argument falls over trivially easy again.

TedNugent wrote:Second, you get more firepower per Marine, and better CC capabilities.

More quality is not always "better" CC capability on any meaningful level. You also get more anti infantry fire power in storm bolters, but lack at-range vehicle crackers - assault cannons dont cut it compared to melta, as I would hope you would be honest enough to at least acknowledge.

TedNugent wrote: You can get a S9 Thunder Hammer for 5 points on a Purifier Squad or 10 points on a Strike Squad.

In your naive arguments you "missed" that they are a) S8 and b) S10 only if a psychic power is passed, at which point no ID ability (unless an IC or Thawn, VERY expensive, is around) - and that psychic power is Ld9 at best, meaning normal marines stop it 1/2 the time and against Eldar it just isnt worth it. Lucky for you I fill in the negatives you conveniently omit in your not at all biased arguments!

TedNugent wrote:Given that a Tac Marine squad pays 25 points for a Power Fist, that means you are already at a 15-20 point discount cost-for-cost. So I don't buy this argument that GKs suffer from a serious deficit in bodies. Write us up a list of equivalent firepower on GK/Tac - note I said firepower, not CC capability - and compare the body counts, and we will see how dramatically GKs suffer in this respect.

For that single model. Apparently you're not taking into account the 5pt per model premium for the same survivability.

I don't have that much time, but for a couple of things,

Yes, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge the 5-9 point premium for a GK over a Tac Marine, I'm just arguing that that is mitigated somewhat by the free Power Weapons, Storm Bolters, and 15-20 point discount on Thunder Hammers/Power Fists.

And sure, open-topped transports allow for more firepower, which is why they receive a +1 to damage rolls against them and also have AV10. That 5+ invul is great, but also costs points, and most DE transports cost as much or more than a GK Rhino.

But if you want to give me the point that firepower is a fair trade-off for survivability, then the rest of your diatribe against GK critics crumbles, because you're the one saying GKs are "just as survivable" as Tac Marines and spite of their increased firepower, and this is supposed to make me turn my head and look the other way at the increased firepower. Then you should apply that principle to DE sailboats and recognize that they are only AV10-11 with Open-topped, and thus can be defeated by Bolter Fire.

GK, overpowered. Pure and simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote: You can get a S9 Thunder Hammer for 5 points on a Purifier Squad or 10 points on a Strike Squad.

In your naive arguments you "missed" that they are a) S8 and b) S10 only if a psychic power is passed, at which point no ID ability (unless an IC or Thawn, VERY expensive, is around) - and that psychic power is Ld9 at best, meaning normal marines stop it 1/2 the time and against Eldar it just isnt worth it. Lucky for you I fill in the negatives you conveniently omit in your not at all biased arguments!

Just to mention: S8 already instakills by its nature on any models T4 or less, S10 does so on T5. If the enemy is T5, you use Hammerhand and Bam: Dead on a 2+ to wound. If they are T6, you Activate Force Weapons. Bam: dead on a 2+. If they are T4 or less, dead on a 2+. Honestly the decision about Hammerhand vs FW is only one that needs to be made for non-thunderhammer weapons in the squad when facing multiwound models. When it comes to MC killing, it's all situational.

They *have* to pay for it, so pay *less* than squads where it is an *option*.

Love to "Have" that option on all my troops too, it's an exceptional deal.

10 points for a A1 TH vs 25 points for A2 on a WG attached to that squad

So you agree with him? A standard Sargent can get that way too.

That you can choose to get. You also lack the 2CCW bonus that other armies can manage, so while the quality of attacks is better, you dont get the quantity. So armies that dont care about quality, like Orks, DE Wyches, and so on, could care less that you have a powersword.

Of course you can make them care with your S5 stormbolters that you can kite them around with, and Wychs do care as you deny their FNP when they have it.

Extra Armour works 100% of the time, g'teed, and is great at keeping transports and walkers moving - in theory the main role for them. Not only can you fail the psychic check, you can perils causing another glancing hit, likely leaving you in the same situation of not shooting as before, and it can be stopped. You're neglecting in your oh-so-insightful isolationist arguments that SW negate that power 50%+ of the time, most MEQ armies 1/3rd of the time and Eldar, with only just ONE farseer (when usually you get two) drop that 5/6 down to failing on average, and perils considerably more often.

Which is modified by the fact that at best, it's a 5-10 point psyker ability that has a , and that most of the armies have to get within 24" of it with their librarian, which thanks to S8 TL 4 shots will easily put down most standard transports for marines, unless that librarian is deep-striking in. With the exception of Eldar, they have to reach the vehicles, and SITW has to be within 12"

Joy, yet more generalist false statements. 3 shot psyback <<<<<< 12 shot venom, with built in 5++ and wounding everything on 4+ against infantry, esp massed foot orks and the like, allows more models to fire out, allows you to move the transport, run and assault with combat troops, as opposed to waiting a turn after getting in position.

Your argument falls over trivially easy again.

Considering that S6 shots from a heavy bolter still scare most venoms, or S7 from an assault cannon with rending will utterly wreck an open top AV10 transport, and that venomspam usually depends upon getting 18" blasters up close to shoot you..

I'm not saying they're better though, but they fall apart to a stiff breeze half the time when I fight them.

More quality is not always "better" CC capability on any meaningful level. You also get more anti infantry fire power in storm bolters, but lack at-range vehicle crackers - assault cannons dont cut it compared to melta, as I would hope you would be honest enough to at least acknowledge.

4 S8 TL shots per turn from three psyflemen

Melta from Henchmen armies, alongside psybacks

And if your not doing that, you just shoot down the transports, and if they have a land raider you fire your rending psycannons till they eventually pop.

In your naive arguments you "missed" that they are a) S8 and b) S10 only if a psychic power is passed, at which point no ID ability (unless an IC or Thawn, VERY expensive, is around) - and that psychic power is Ld9 at best, meaning normal marines stop it 1/2 the time and against Eldar it just isnt worth it. Lucky for you I fill in the negatives you conveniently omit in your not at all biased arguments!

The problem is that not everyone has this exceptional defense, one of the major things not arguing against them aren't marine players, but those generally without the major psyker defense, like orks for example.

TedNugent wrote:And sure, open-topped transports allow for more firepower, which is why they receive a +1 to damage rolls against them and also have AV10. That 5+ invul is great, but also costs points, and most DE transports cost as much or more than a GK Rhino.

A Dakka Venom is 65pts and puts out 12 poison shots. A Raider with a Darklance and FF is 70. >.< The major divergence is what is inside by comparison, and what you can get for the cost. A GK Rhino can put out more punishing fire while stationary (based on the guys inside) while a Venom can put out (Assuming best output) 4 18" lances and 12 poison shots if it moves 6", or only 12 poison shots if it moves 12. The occupants can assault out, but the units inside are usually geared for Rock/Paper/Scissors engagements. Not to mention that, not only more easily destroyed, the passangers of the DE vehicles will lose more members on average and have a greater likelyhood of being pinned, panicking, and NOT rallying afterwards.

Mosly I get irritated that Rhinos can pop the hatch with no penalties whatsoever (such as counting as OT when they do so) and fire out, but at least they aren't fast. Um. Mostly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote: A well thought out, point for point post.

I don't always agree with ZebioLizard, but when I do, it's about Grey Knights.

Stay Cheesy, my friends.

Ted - actually you didnt acknowledge that at all. Plus youre still making the simplistic comparisons.....

You also made the statement that GK Transports are the best transport bar none - I just proved that they arent. You were making yet more general statements that were yet again wrong.

Zebio - if it were an option, you would pay more than GK do. That was the point you seem to be missing there.

I'll try it again: you pay more for item X when it is an *option* than when it is *mandatory*. This is because you have more flexibility, and you are committed to paying it regardless of if it giving you any benefits or not.

I disagreed with the overly simplistic "10 points!!!" stance, y showing you gain attacks when paying 25points, as a sarge has 2 attacks base. That is a benefit that, yet again, Ted was ignoring as it would be inconvenient to their argument.

S5 stormbolters that costs 2pts per model, minimum, and usually more - 2.25 for the models that can actually use it in a GKSS, 3.33 for a purifier squad. Apparently this is free for you, as you dont even mention it as a downside.

None of your negatives about fortitude take away from the fact that, astonishingly, Ted doesnt seem to suffer *any* negatives with the use of psychic powers, and is entirey free to consider them in a vacuum. The game isnt a vacuum. 24" range isnt difficult to get with things like drop pods, storm ravens, etc all managing to be quite quick at getting to you. Loved the way you just brushed over Eldar though, who completely shut down any and all non-BB based powers....

DE Venomspam usually relies on getting the important stuff shot down by ravagers *first*, while suicide squads move in with venoms. You've also forgotten necrons, whose wall of AV13 cares little for S6 psybacks, and that assault cannon are 24", which is just a little shorter than DL.....

The point of mentionning venoms, as you seem to have missed it, was that Ted made the hilarious claim that GK transports were the best. I pointed out a number of ways that the Phil Kelly "mandatory 10 point upgrade" venom which costs about 5pts more could be considered better than a psyback, to prove that the argument was complete nonsense - again.

Onto quality: yet again you have missed that Ted is arguing a mythical army which contains, at the same time, oodles of purifiers, GKSS, Interceptors, henchmen, paladins etc, with no points or indeed FOC limit (as we're now up to 3 HQs needed to get everything). I was pointing out that IF you take PAKG then you lose out on melta in those squads - a 2 shot (as you're going to be disembarking) assault cannon, even at S7, doesnt open AV12 / 13 / 14 with any reliability. If you've got psybacks then you're not shooting from inside them, meaning those LR tend to flame you to death.

I am aware that not everyone has those defences, however Teds argument was such a 1st order level - it took no account of the odds of failure, or that if you perils you ARE losing a model, etc. Best case always vs worst case always is not generally the way to run a comparison of strengths and weaknesses, and Ted has been consistently poor in this regard.

Nagashek - then venoms stay at 36", away from the 24" range guns, until the ravagers have killed enough transports for you to splinter the guys inside to death.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Oh look, you're back with this same tired, discredited by the dozens argument again....

10 points for a A1 TH vs 25 points for A2 on a WG attached to that squad

Read your dex, buddy.

Strike Squads get a base 2 attacks Sergeant that doubles as a Hammerhand Psyker. Place your TH on that model.

E.g. 10 points for an A2 TH with an option for S10 Hammerhand vs 25 points for an A2 S8 PF Sergeant.

Lol. what, so your first perils kills your anti walker weapon? Just when you need it?

You can do so, I suppose.

In short: I knew their justicar was A2, I just dont see most actual lists, not your in vacuum best outcome always lists that contain everything, put the hammer on the justicar.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lol. what, so your first perils kills your anti walker weapon? Just when you need it?

You can do so, I suppose.

In short: I knew their justicar was A2, I just dont see most actual lists, not your in vacuum best outcome always lists that contain everything, put the hammer on the justicar.

Or you could get Purifiers and put it on any model for only 5 points and get A2 Hammerhand.

Or you could leave it on your Strike Squad Justicar and neglect to use Hammerhand, in which case it's still a 2A S8 Thunderhammer for 10 pts versus your 2A S8 PF for 5 points. Or, what the hell, you could put it on a regular Strike GK and then get an A1 S10 Hammerhand TH and then put it on another Strike GK for 2 A1 S10 Hammerhand THs for 20 points, which is still a 5 point discount compared to your 2A S8 PF.

Plus Hammerhand occurs on what, double 1 double 6, in which case it's a very minor percent chance to occur relative to the benefit. In fact, only 2/36, or roughly 5.5~% or 5.5 repeating percent.

Plus there's rather an advantage to putting it on the Justicar, that being, when you put it on the Justicar then you have two important benefits attached to one model, being Psychic test and CC AV, which can actually be important in preserving the model as far as wound allocation.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Of course you can make them care with your S5 stormbolters that you can kite them around with, and Wychs do care as you deny their FNP when they have it.

Nobs also care, because their Force Weapons not only deny them their FNP save, thus reducing them to a 5+ save on a 25 point minimum model, but they can also instant kill them on a successful force activation (on Ld9, or ~70% success)

Blood Angels would also doubly care, because their Assault units rely on a FNP and 3+ save, both of which are ignored in CC by Grey Knights Force Weapons.

You also ignore that, when upgrading from a power weapon to a power fist, you dont pay 25 points.

Carry on with your naive, simplistic best-case arguments. They are really convincing.

I'm sorry, Nosferatu, but your counter arguments really aren't much better. All you're doing is poo-pooing their arguments without giving anything substantial back.

One thing I see is a comparison between massive mobs of shootas and squads of marines, in terms of shooting. That's not a very clever comparison, for a few reasons.

1) Deployment: You're going to be forced into a wide frontage deployment with a force like this, and the opponent can quite happily deploy in a refused flank that makes best use of the available terrain. This means he effectively only has to fight half your army at a time with his entire army.
2)Range: To get your full firepower on an enemy squad, you have to get all your shootas in range. It's not uncommon for a mob of shootas to extend over 6" of the battlefield, often more along the frontage, especially if there are any templates or pie plates on offer or if there has been funnelling caused by terrain. You'll usually get 10-15 in range (and this is after eating a turn of shooting from his entire army on your closest mob, so you may be lucky to do that well). You don't kill many marines with even 30 shoota shots (10 hit, 5 wound, you might kill 2.).
3) Movement: The footprint has another effect- you are slowed down by difficult terrain pretty much every turn. Sometimes this is not a big issue, but other times you can come down with what I call "gluefoot" where you get caught with a couple of 1,2, or 3,3 rolls in a turn. You get shredded by the long range fire when this happens.

Given all of this, the GK player most likely has some awful counter assault sitting ready for you.

Please explain to me how an ork player overcomes this. Is the answer Kan Wall?

I disagreed with the overly simplistic "10 points!!!" stance, y showing you gain attacks when paying 25points, as a sarge has 2 attacks base. That is a benefit that, yet again, Ted was ignoring as it would be inconvenient to their argument.

You have Justicars that can carry it for strike squads, and purifiers can get it for 5 points on each model, which do have 2 attacks base.

S5 stormbolters that costs 2pts per model, minimum, and usually more - 2.25 for the models that can actually use it in a GKSS, 3.33 for a purifier squad. Apparently this is free for you, as you dont even mention it as a downside.

Because 20 points to make an entire squad S5 in shooting, which basically matches tau (without their range) and is assault? And only costs the price of one strike squad model?

None of your negatives about fortitude take away from the fact that, astonishingly, Ted doesnt seem to suffer *any* negatives with the use of psychic powers, and is entirey free to consider them in a vacuum. The game isnt a vacuum. 24" range isnt difficult to get with things like drop pods, storm ravens, etc all managing to be quite quick at getting to you. Loved the way you just brushed over Eldar though, who completely shut down any and all non-BB based powers....

Oh gee, you suddenly lose your Psybolt ammo shots because of the Eldar's Psyker defense oh wait no you don't, you still put out high quality shots, or that your "Expensive" model, which is only 5-15 points more than your standard riflemen, whose Reinforced Aegis still works against Eldar.

Yes there's plenty of things that can easily get within 24" like drop pods..Or maybe you can just park a strike squad next to it, pop that ability, and deepstrikers can't near them at all. As for the rest, they can, but they have to move across the board or have a good outflank after all..

DE Venomspam usually relies on getting the important stuff shot down by ravagers *first*, while suicide squads move in with venoms. You've also forgotten necrons, whose wall of AV13 cares little for S6 psybacks, and that assault cannon are 24", which is just a little shorter than DL.....

No I havn't forgotten necrons, but they care for the melta squads inside said psybacks.

As for the ravagers, they can shoot things down of course, but unless they get a 3+ on the result, they'll still be moving forward towards them and firing.

Onto quality: yet again you have missed that Ted is arguing a mythical army which contains, at the same time, oodles of purifiers, GKSS, Interceptors, henchmen, paladins etc, with no points or indeed FOC limit (as we're now up to 3 HQs needed to get everything). I was pointing out that IF you take PAKG then you lose out on melta in those squads - a 2 shot (as you're going to be disembarking) assault cannon, even at S7, doesnt open AV12 / 13 / 14 with any reliability. If you've got psybacks then you're not shooting from inside them, meaning those LR tend to flame you to death.

Yeah his arguments were a bit off the wall, I missed a few of his comments before I saw the hypothetical.

You also ignore that, when upgrading from a power weapon to a power fist, you dont pay 25 points.

Technically you don't, but a Pfist is a 15 point upgrade of a PW, so GK are paying a 10 point upgrade over a force weapon.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Oh gee, you suddenly lose your Psybolt ammo shots because of the Eldar's Psyker defense oh wait no you don't, you still put out high quality shots, or that your "Expensive" model, which is only 5-15 points more than your standard riflemen, whose Reinforced Aegis still works against Eldar.

Yes there's plenty of things that can easily get within 24" like drop pods..Or maybe you can just park a strike squad next to it, pop that ability, and deepstrikers can't near them at all. As for the rest, they can, but they have to move across the board or have a good outflank after all..

In which case you have a unit sitting in the backfield that you've paid for that doesn't do a whole lot of damage, which is where the opportunity cost of Grey Knights comes in.

Zebio - 10 point upgrade. PW 15 points, pfist 25 (MEQ stats)

20 points is not...what? It's still 20 points, its still another model you could have had - as you helpfully point out. The point is that you cannot just claim "S5 SB!!!!" without pointing out the actual cost associated with it.

They dont need to Doom you, and even if they do they still have a better than 50% chance of passing - 3D6 lose the highest on Ld6. Its not putting out those high quality shots as Eldar tend to shoot first, at least when played competently. You just seem to totally ignore the negatives of relying on a psychic check - and, agaiin, there is this sudden perfect counter in a GKSS that you have *just* to babysit against deepstrikers, when again the *actual* lists dont tend to have them in favour of more henchmen.

There are multiple ways around psyriflemen, being tied up in CC being one way to deal with them - they dont kill a lot in CC, after all.

Necrons tend to pop psybacks quite handily. You have heard of annihilation barges, yes? Plus melta squads dont get to fire inside a psyback, meaning theyre out in the open. They dont last long at that point.

In short: Stop making really, really simplistic and easily refuted arguments about "OP!!!!!", and this thread *unlike every other GK are OP!!!! thread ever* could have a hope of some useful discussion. Refusal to see counters, when the UK scene have managed this in general, or to actually even admit the downsides rather than pointless made up lists that dont respect points nor the FOC (no melta, so suddenly all the henchmen squads appear! Orks so max purifiers! DS? Strike squads suddenly appear in a slot or 2! and so on) would be a help

Da Boss - I've seen Ork players manage this, quite successfully. The actual lists, which dont have every single possible unit in it unlike Teds "lists", tend not to have much that can withstand 6 25 man boyz units under cover, arriving in waves. The trick is to *not* multicharge purifiers, unlike normal grunts where multicharging is a good thing - its another change to base tactics, same as any book. GK lists have too much quality and not enough quantity to deal with big hordes lists.

I haven't mentioned multi-assaulting at all in what I was saying though. I would never multi assault purifiers, it'd be madness!

I don't see how you can say they don't have enough quantity to deal with hordes when they can put out so much quality firepower and have the hands down best anti horde CC unit in the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Snip.

I'm not claiming they are OP, I am claiming they set the bar far higher than most can jump, some armies have good counters and some dread seeing them appear on the field.

In most cases, if everyone was up to GK's power level things would be fine, but as it is, they are the top tier army, they are above IG & SW.

Pointing out that they aren't OP isn't going to help their image, mainly it's because they are generally in a strong tier, with good troops, good elites, and with very few drawbacks aside from cost. I'm just tired of seeing the WAAC gamers with their unpainted proxies and their sudden GK obsession, but I can't exactly help that though, though if they had stuck with SW like before I could at least deal with them a bit easier.

Lets look at the facts as they are:

They have the best Dreadnought in the game when it comes to shooting. No one can argue that. There is of course a better close combat Dread but the Death Company Dread with Blood Talons actually has to get into close combat to be as effective and when you do the math he really isn't going to kill as much stuff as a Psyfleman.

Purifiers should have never been Troops choices. I could understand making Crowe without the drawbacks and him making one squad of them be Troops. I can live with that. When you take a squad with all the possibilities that Purifiers have and you get to take up to 6 squads of them that is quite silly.

The same would have worked for the Paladins. If you take Draigo you can take one squad of them as Troops, otherwise they are an Elites choice. That makes it a little harder to spam them really.

The Coteaz thing is really just silly in and of itself. You can take a 3 man squad of next to nothing for points and then you get to give it a Razorback. That's lunacy if I ever heard it.

By the way you may notice that Phil Kelly was given 2 codexes in his latest endeavors who rarely get updated. So he made them good enough to survive the codex creep effect. Wolves hadn't had a codex in what 8 or 9 years before he got a hold of it? So he made them with a bunch of useful units that would be able to be competitive for multiple editions. Same thing with Dark Eldar. How long did they wait for a Dex? A decade or longer. So he did the same thing with them that he did with Wolves. He knew that they wouldn't get an update for a long time so he made them to last.

Hopefully he will have the same effect on Chaos.

Reivax26 wrote:Lets look at the facts as they are:

They have the best Dreadnought in the game when it comes to shooting. No one can argue that. There is of course a better close combat Dread but the Death Company Dread with Blood Talons actually has to get into close combat to be as effective and when you do the math he really isn't going to kill as much stuff as a Psyfleman.

Purifiers should have never been Troops choices. I could understand making Crowe without the drawbacks and him making one squad of them be Troops. I can live with that. When you take a squad with all the possibilities that Purifiers have and you get to take up to 6 squads of them that is quite silly.

The same would have worked for the Paladins. If you take Draigo you can take one squad of them as Troops, otherwise they are an Elites choice. That makes it a little harder to spam them really.

The Coteaz thing is really just silly in and of itself. You can take a 3 man squad of next to nothing for points and then you get to give it a Razorback. That's lunacy if I ever heard it.

By the way you may notice that Phil Kelly was given 2 codexes in his latest endeavors who rarely get updated. So he made them good enough to survive the codex creep effect. Wolves hadn't had a codex in what 8 or 9 years before he got a hold of it? So he made them with a bunch of useful units that would be able to be competitive for multiple editions. Same thing with Dark Eldar. How long did they wait for a Dex? A decade or longer. So he did the same thing with them that he did with Wolves. He knew that they wouldn't get an update for a long time so he made them to last.

Hopefully he will have the same effect on Chaos.

When you put it like that it does make alot of sense, yeah there op now but in 6th? 7th? even 8th if DE have to wait again, are they going to be OP?

This line of reasoning has actually got me interested in 6th in a way that all the stupid rumor threads havent, im actually looking foward now to see what could happen to redress the ballance

Reivax26 wrote:

Purifiers should have never been Troops choices. I could understand making Crowe without the drawbacks and him making one squad of them be Troops. I can live with that. When you take a squad with all the possibilities that Purifiers have and you get to take up to 6 squads of them that is quite silly.

I would say either Purifiers should not be troop choices, or if every army (specifically Orks, my god) had a moderately effective Psychic defense; I'm talking damn near anything, I would be fine with the rest of the Codex.

Just anything to where Purifiers weren't quite so psychotic. I mean, there's a lot of strong, fabulous stuff in the Codex, and that's fine. I just don't appreciate the idea that my basic troop choice would get cooked in the assault against an opponents troop choice, and there is essentially no way to counter that with the Ork Codex. One unit with Psychic defense, I don't care if it costs 150 or 200 points for me to access it, and I would be fine.

3 units of Purifiers MAX taking up 3 Elite FOC slots, great, perfect, peachy, an entire list comp of Purifiers as Vanguard for a mechanized list with AC Dreads, dear God, please have mercy.

The fluff even says there is a typical galaxy-wide total of 30 Purifiers, you don't need to have all of them in one army playing a game at your local hobby mart.

Da Boss wrote:I haven't mentioned multi-assaulting at all in what I was saying though. I would never multi assault purifiers, it'd be madness!

I don't see how you can say they don't have enough quantity to deal with hordes when they can put out so much quality firepower and have the hands down best anti horde CC unit in the game.

Because they dont, shooting wise. Run the maths. All those psybacks pumping out good quality shots cant kill enough orks before they get to you. a 5+ cover save goes a long way. The real lists tend to only have points for purifiers in elites, 3 5 man units, so once youre in the lines you kill each unit very, very quickly.

As Ive said - Orks can do it. I've seen it. It gets worse when you play 2k and above, as you can afford more purifiers, but most common points are 1500 - 1850, when they just dont have the points for it.

Phil Kelly was also given Eldar, who regularly get updates, and he broke 4th edition with them. SW broke 5th edition. DE carried out this trend, with that great hallmark of PK codexes - absolutely no internal balance whatsoever.