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*Is still waiting for Nos to tell us how SW "broke 5th"...*

On one hand, Nids are expected to survive crossing the table at least 18" (infiltrate), so I don't see why it should be that hard for Daemons.

On the other hand, I've completely and utterly agreed from the start of this "Chicken Littling" that Warp Quake is far, far better than it should be, bordering on being outright stupid.

But still, I ask again, what's the point of this? Okay, so then we ALL agree GK are just simply the most abusive terrible thing ever. I'll say that puppies were wood chipper-ed to make the ink it was printed with. Does the thread die? Does it continue, and we all keep moaning the same things about it?

What is accomplished? I mean, we've done this dance so many times over and over again. You come in complaining about Warp Quake. Few people disagree, but you do get the occasional argument. Vakathi comes in complaining about razorspam. I try to point out that you can make just as shooty of an IG list. People make the fault of comparing a SM to a Strike. Nos jumps in with a bit on opportunity cost. AlmightyWalrus and Grey Templar hang out dealing with other (sometimes valid, usually not) complaints. We get drive by people snidely comparing GK players to Nazis, and on and on.

I don't even have to look back through the thread to recall the players, and the game keeps being the same. I've just gone monetarily sane today and realized the amount of man hours that have been spent 'debating' both sides of this.

We are all bad people.

Grimtuff wrote:*Is still waiting for Nos to tell us how SW "broke 5th"...*

Sorry, given your last "stellar" response I assumed you'd read and acccepted the argument. It was hard to tell.

LF, GH and cheap broken psychic powers on cheap, broken spammable HQs. Guess you just didnt get the memo.

I think the bitching does have its place at best GW would maybe listen to the community and do a quick update or rewrite. At worst GK players will be shamed into shelving their armies and playing something else or quiting outright. All of these outcomes are positive as the net result is the change the bitchers want. Less GK players or better constructed rules.

tgf wrote:I think the bitching does have its place at best GW would maybe listen to the community and do a quick update or rewrite. At worst GK players will be shamed into shelving their armies and playing something else or quiting outright. All of these outcomes are positive as the net result is the change the bitchers want. Less GK players or better constructed rules.

Crass though it might be to respond with a Google link: https://www.google.com/search?q=deffrolla+petition

That's what it took to get one ruling for one question. You're NOT getting a new GK codex, and you're morally wrong for trying to jeer people into not participating. The best you can hope for is that there is some possibility that GW has some idea what they're doing after all, and is just REALLY BAD at executing it. If that is the case, then you will see GK toned down in 6th edition just in time for something else to replace them, intentionally or otherwise.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, GKs only hurt daemons when they spam warp quake. Which no competitive list does.

Saying SS aren't competitive implies that they're somehow bad, which they're not. They're still well worth their points, and as 626 pointed out you don't need to take a full list of them to benefit. One could even make it worse with combat squad and spread it out even more.

There's also, you know, psyk-out grenades that every GK unit gets for free that makes daemons (and psykers) swing last

daedalus wrote:

tgf wrote:I think the bitching does have its place at best GW would maybe listen to the community and do a quick update or rewrite. At worst GK players will be shamed into shelving their armies and playing something else or quiting outright. All of these outcomes are positive as the net result is the change the bitchers want. Less GK players or better constructed rules.

Crass though it might be to respond with a Google link: https://www.google.com/search?q=deffrolla+petition

That's what it took to get one ruling for one question. You're NOT getting a new GK codex, and you're morally wrong for trying to jeer people into not participating. The best you can hope for is that there is some possibility that GW has some idea what they're doing after all, and is just REALLY BAD at executing it. If that is the case, then you will see GK toned down in 6th edition just in time for something else to replace them, intentionally or otherwise.

There is nothing immoral about complaining if you feel there is something wrong. If a player quits because of it, they obviously felt something was wrong, or didn't like the bitching. Either way its not on the bitchers. I point you to any political/administrative/popular action, isn't it just bitching till something gets done?

daedalus wrote:I really don't see how much harder it is to kill a psyfleman than it is a LF squad. Different to kill, sure, but not harder. A lucky lascannon vs a torrent of fire. I'd say for a lot of armies, killing the psyfleman is actually easier.

I would disagree with this statement.

Your using an LC as a comparison, one of the long range AV comparisons. This is the wrong tool to be used on long fangs. Your effectively saying "Look, using this screwdriver its just as easy to hammer this nail"

If you use the right tools, you see the long fangs die a lot easier than the psydread. For example, a marine rifleman dread can reasonably be expected to throw 4 wounds on the LF squad, and you can expect to see 1 of the MLs stop shooting. That same rifleman has a ~9.5% to destroy the obscured psydread.
(Note: A single LC has a ~5.56% to destroy that same psydread, compared to a TL AC, which has a ~4.93% TL FTW LOL!)

When you add the other advantages of psydreads, such as being able to move and shoot, there is no comparison. The psydreads are better in every way under the 5th edition rules. (Note, I expect this to change in 6th when a few shaken hits destroy the dread)

You can't complain about strike squads being OP, they die just as easily as a normal marine and with only WS4 they miss half of the time with their single attack. A fully tooled strike squad and techmarine is beyond 400pts without a transport. Its pointless when they die so 'easily'. A techmarine is easy to single out in combat and only has 1 wound. Grenades only last for 1 turn as well.

At 2000pts I regularly get my ass handed to me by a local SW player. He takes 30 Grey Hunters, Canis Wolfborn, Lord with all bells and whistles on thunderwolf 30 wolves and 15 Storm Shield Thunderwolves. Thats beyond overpowered. Thunderwolves always pass that 3+*, T5 is a pain in the ass and they can get in combat easily by turn 2 wreck most of my army and clean up with Grey Hunters. Admittedly this is only one guy, I tend to do well against most others.

The OP should feel lucky he has the second cheesiest army

I don't complain about GK, as an old Daemonhunter player I enjoy the victories

phantommaster wrote:You can't complain about strike squads being OP, they die just as easily as a normal marine and with only WS4 they miss half of the time with their single attack. A fully tooled strike squad and techmarine is beyond 400pts without a transport. Its pointless when they die so 'easily'. A techmarine is easy to single out in combat and only has 1 wound. Grenades only last for 1 turn as well.

At 2000pts I regularly get my ass handed to me by a local SW player. He takes 30 Grey Hunters, Canis Wolfborn, Lord with all bells and whistles on thunderwolf 30 wolves and 15 Storm Shield Thunderwolves. Thats beyond overpowered. Thunderwolves always pass that 3+*, T5 is a pain in the ass and they can get in combat easily by turn 2 wreck most of my army and clean up with Grey Hunters. Admittedly this is only one guy, I tend to do well against most others.

The OP should feel lucky he has the second cheesiest army

I don't complain about GK, as an old Daemonhunter player I enjoy the victories

That SW list is far more than 2000 points. The 15 storm shield thunderwolves alone are 1200 points.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:*Is still waiting for Nos to tell us how SW "broke 5th"...*

Sorry, given your last "stellar" response I assumed you'd read and acccepted the argument. It was hard to tell.

LF, GH and cheap broken psychic powers on cheap, broken spammable HQs. Guess you just didnt get the memo.

*still waiting for a comprehensive reply as to why they broke 5th*

Go on, I can wait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

phantommaster wrote:You can't complain about strike squads being OP, they die just as easily as a normal marine and with only WS4 they miss half of the time with their single attack. A fully tooled strike squad and techmarine is beyond 400pts without a transport. Its pointless when they die so 'easily'. A techmarine is easy to single out in combat and only has 1 wound. Grenades only last for 1 turn as well.

At 2000pts I regularly get my ass handed to me by a local SW player. He takes 30 Grey Hunters, Canis Wolfborn, Lord with all bells and whistles on thunderwolf 30 wolves and 15 Storm Shield Thunderwolves. Thats beyond overpowered. Thunderwolves always pass that 3+*, T5 is a pain in the ass and they can get in combat easily by turn 2 wreck most of my army and clean up with Grey Hunters. Admittedly this is only one guy, I tend to do well against most others.

The OP should feel lucky he has the second cheesiest army

I don't complain about GK, as an old Daemonhunter player I enjoy the victories

That SW list is far more than 2000 points. The 15 storm shield thunderwolves alone are 1200 points.

Approx 2340pts to be precise.

tgf wrote:
There is nothing immoral about complaining if you feel there is something wrong. If a player quits because of it, they obviously felt something was wrong, or didn't like the bitching. Either way its not on the bitchers. I point you to any political/administrative/popular action, isn't it just bitching till something gets done?

tgf wrote:At worst GK players will be shamed into shelving their armies and playing something else or quiting outright.

This is what I'm referring to. If that's a goal, it's a pretty gakky one. Not very cool.

labmouse42 wrote:
Your using an LC as a comparison, one of the long range AV comparisons. This is the wrong tool to be used on long fangs. Your effectively saying "Look, using this screwdriver its just as easy to hammer this nail"

It just seemed the most reasonable tool to use on the Dread. I never said that I would use the same thing on a Long Fang squad. I wouldn't advocate bolter fire on a Dread either, but I sure would for the Long Fangs.

If you use the right tools, you see the long fangs die a lot easier than the psydread. For example, a marine rifleman dread can reasonably be expected to throw 4 wounds on the LF squad, and you can expect to see 1 of the MLs stop shooting. That same rifleman has a ~9.5% to destroy the obscured psydread.
(Note: A single LC has a ~5.56% to destroy that same psydread, compared to a TL AC, which has a ~4.93% TL FTW LOL!)

I feel like this is a little contrived as well. I mean, for one, it's a lot harder to get cover on a dread than it is on, say, 5 infantry models. For another, (though this wasn't in my original example) LC often come twin linked, such as on a vendetta/landraider/dreadnought/razorback which would up the odds a bit.

I don't know. I think of mech guard and think to myself: AV12 isn't hard to shut down here. Why is it different there? Fortitude is the only thing I see, but GK generally has less mech than IG does, so I would think you'd have a better ratio of heavy weapons to enemy vehicles.

rigeld2 wrote:

phantommaster wrote:You can't complain about strike squads being OP, they die just as easily as a normal marine and with only WS4 they miss half of the time with their single attack. A fully tooled strike squad and techmarine is beyond 400pts without a transport. Its pointless when they die so 'easily'. A techmarine is easy to single out in combat and only has 1 wound. Grenades only last for 1 turn as well.

At 2000pts I regularly get my ass handed to me by a local SW player. He takes 30 Grey Hunters, Canis Wolfborn, 30 wolves and 15 Storm Shield Thunderwolves. Thats beyond overpowered. Thunderwolves always pass that 3+*, T5 is a pain in the ass and they can get in combat easily by turn 2 wreck most of my army and clean up with Grey Hunters. Admittedly this is only one guy, I tend to do well against most others.

The OP should feel lucky he has the second cheesiest army

I don't complain about GK, as an old Daemonhunter player I enjoy the victories

That SW list is far more than 2000 points. The 15 storm shield thunderwolves alone are 1200 points.

Sorry, he dropped the extra Lord

daedalus wrote:I don't know. I think of mech guard and think to myself: AV12 isn't hard to shut down here. Why is it different there? Fortitude is the only thing I see, but GK generally has less mech than IG does, so I would think you'd have a better ratio of heavy weapons to enemy vehicles.

I think you answered that yourself. Its all about the Fortitude.

Lets say that your facing mech'guard. You have a bunch of obscured hydras behind a wall of chimeras with a few valks on the other side of the board. Each of the primary targets -- valks and hydras only need to be glanced in order to stop them from shooting, which is step one of stopping AV 12 spam in its tracks, right?

On the other hand, GK dreads can ignore shaken/stunned results 90% of the time, meaning that they don't care about getting shaken. In order to have any measurable effect they need to be weapon destroyed or destroyed, which makes them much harder to stop. This problem becomes much greater if your opponent has taken venerable dreads which are extremely hard to dislodge at range.

As I mentioned, if the majority of 6th edition rumors are correct, then these issues are addressed. The psydread can be stunned/shaken to death as it loses hull points. The bonus for cover decreases. All armies getting better rapid fire bolters reduces the power of the stormbolter troops.

IMHO, the GK codex was written for 6th, and when put into 5th edition its OP. I expect in 6th it will be good, and roughly on the same power level as the Necron codex.

Sure, but generally you see less armor, point for point, in a GK list as would in an IG one. With the number of targets reduced, each individual one allows for a greater concentration of fire.

I agree about the possibility of 6th straightening this out, but I don't think there's any other value to add to this thread up until then.

Agreed. With today being the 18th, I don't find myself being really annoyed that GK are OP in 5th. 6th is so close that its a moot point.

phantommaster wrote:Sorry, he dropped the extra Lord

Even with naked GH squads and no extra lord that list is 2075 points.

Grimtuff wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:*Is still waiting for Nos to tell us how SW "broke 5th"...*

Sorry, given your last "stellar" response I assumed you'd read and acccepted the argument. It was hard to tell.

LF, GH and cheap broken psychic powers on cheap, broken spammable HQs. Guess you just didnt get the memo.

*still waiting for a comprehensive reply as to why they broke 5th*

Go on, I can wait.

Keep on waiting - not only is this just a tad OT for this thread (as well as blindingly obvious for anyone who's played 4th and 5th) quite frankly your game playing and generally less than constructive posts means I cant actually be bothered to try to justify anything further to you - it isnt worth my time. Congratulations!

Onto other, more relevant posts....

Labmouse - in your "passes 91%" you forgot that a double 1, while technically a pass, half of the time results in you still not shooting, 1/6th you're stunned, 1/6th you lose a weapon and 1/6th you lose movement, which includes pivoting. Given the limited fire arc on a dread (22.5deg either side of each hull mounted weapon) this can represent the death of it

How are you always getting cover? For every dread unless every board has 2 - 3 nice ruins (so you dont get fire lane blocked, and for spearhead) on both sides, this isnt a likely occurrence.

tgf - so your entire hope is to bully people into not playing an army? Bad form.

daedalus wrote:On one hand, Nids are expected to survive crossing the table at least 18" (infiltrate), so I don't see why it should be that hard for Daemons.

On the other hand, I've completely and utterly agreed from the start of this "Chicken Littling" that Warp Quake is far, far better than it should be, bordering on being outright stupid.

Tyranids have numbers, Daemons don't.

With 'Nids, you're encouraged to take large units of cheap fodder to screen your real hitters.
With Daemons, all your units are costed similar to GH's through termies, thus your numbers are somewhat limited. Yes that army-wide invuln is a real boon, but a 5++ is still not going to save you when you're forced to take an extra turn or two to get into position because 1 psychic test forced you to deploy 20"+ away.

daedalus wrote:But still, I ask again, what's the point of this? Okay, so then we ALL agree GK are just simply the most abusive terrible thing ever. I'll say that puppies were wood chipper-ed to make the ink it was printed with. Does the thread die? Does it continue, and we all keep moaning the same things about it?

What is accomplished? I mean, we've done this dance so many times over and over again. You come in complaining about Warp Quake. Few people disagree, but you do get the occasional argument. Vakathi comes in complaining about razorspam. I try to point out that you can make just as shooty of an IG list. People make the fault of comparing a SM to a Strike. Nos jumps in with a bit on opportunity cost. AlmightyWalrus and Grey Templar hang out dealing with other (sometimes valid, usually not) complaints. We get drive by people snidely comparing GK players to Nazis, and on and on.

I don't even have to look back through the thread to recall the players, and the game keeps being the same. I've just gone monetarily sane today and realized the amount of man hours that have been spent 'debating' both sides of this.

We are all bad people.

GW does actually listen when the bulk of the community gets incensed about a particular army being noticably OP as compared to the rest. Look at 7th edition Daemons of Chaos! (8th edition was specifically ment to de-power the army and balance it!)
So yes, a vocal majority complaining, especially at events like games days and studio days by asking questions like, "so why are GK's such a rediculously OP army that can squash half the field so easily?' does get noticed by the studio.

I agree that trying to shame people into shelving their GK armies is silly and it makes you no better than the dirty hobos who abuse the codex.

IcedAnimals wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

SW broke Black Templars? huh? Nothing about the SW codex prevents my black templars from setting up on the table. I have two space wolf players in my area and have played them often with my templars and every game has been relatively close with the balance of our books never even being brought up as a deciding factor.

Now my chaos daemons on the other hand? GK pay a single point to get 2 initiative and strike at the same time as my Slaanesh daemons. The game is over the second I ask someone if they want to play and he puts down grey knights.

Here is a challenge for you and a friend. one of you make a space wolf list knowing your opponent will be making a black templar list. Have the other person do the same with templars. Play the game. Was it a fun game? It should be unless one of you has no idea what you are doing.
Now do the same with Grey Knights and daemons. Did the game last past turn 2? If yes, you did it wrong.

GK are a plague upon 40k. but GW loves it because they are selling tons of marine models because of them. I just hope they get a codex early in 6th. Not because they need it like the older books do. But because the game as a whole needs GK toned down.

Space Wolves do everything Templars do except Black Tide and Assault Terminators better, often for cheaper as well. It's a major disadvantage, just as Warp Quake leaves Daemons at a major disadvantage. That said, since you obviously didn't read the thread I'll say it again: total board-wide WQ requires a specific type of list that isn't very common and still isn't guaranteed. Tau can infiltrate large numbers of Kroot that at maximum coherency makes deep striking dangerous indeed, and yet no one is raging about how OP Tau are (for good reason). Warp Quake, dangerous as it is, isn't an instantly killing power. You've got 3 results on the mishap table after all.

Furthermore, I find the "tons of Marine models" strange: GK don't use the same Infantry models as other Space Marine Codices, and yet you felt the need to bring this up for some reason. The comment suggests to me that you're of the opinion that Space Marines get some sort of power boost compared to other Codices. I'm not going to debate this in this thread, as it's off topic, but suffice it to say that I feel that this isn't true.

Actually, against those 'o so cleaver GK players, the mishap chart suddenly only has 2 possible results.

And clearly AlmightyWalrus, you constantly choose to ignore the point that you only need 1 freaking 10 man squad to screw over a Daemon army! God forbid they get combat squaded to cover more area.
You don't need to cover the whole table, just force the Daemons to drop 24" or more away from you and you're laughing.

labmouse42 wrote:Agreed. With today being the 18th, I don't find myself being really annoyed that GK are OP in 5th. 6th is so close that its a moot point.

And then we all wait for the Re:Necrons: OP? threads to start

yea. It always goes that way.

WTF IG?!?
OMG SW R OP!
NURF PALLIES!!!

No matter what game system, there is always an extremely vocal group.

the anoyance about GK isnt limited to the vocal majority though, i hear people at the ground level (non internet) complain about them too, it is odd however that i dont hear alot about space wolves, but that may be due to a extreme lack of SW players at my local club

There was quite a bit of groaning here locally about SW after they dropped. I'm guessing it went like IG. Nowadays, I don't feel like there's nearly as many people who get as huffy about IG as there was a couple years ago.

daedalus wrote:There was quite a bit of groaning here locally about SW after they dropped. I'm guessing it went like IG. Nowadays, I don't feel like there's nearly as many people who get as huffy about IG as there was a couple years ago.

There almost always is. New codex=grumbles it should be a part of our understanding of the hobby. Heck when i started playing and my brother showed me what brightlance did I thought that was OP its just the way things are.

Experiment 626 wrote:Actually, against those 'o so cleaver GK players, the mishap chart suddenly only has 2 possible results.

Only if they're cheating.

Experiment 626 wrote:And clearly AlmightyWalrus, you constantly choose to ignore the point that you only need 1 freaking 10 man squad to screw over a Daemon army! God forbid they get combat squaded to cover more area.
You don't need to cover the whole table, just force the Daemons to drop 24" or more away from you and you're laughing.

So it makes it more difficult for you to win? DOes that mean noone should ever get DS defence?

Formosa wrote:the anoyance about GK isnt limited to the vocal majority though, i hear people at the ground level (non internet) complain about them too, it is odd however that i dont hear alot about space wolves, but that may be due to a extreme lack of SW players at my local club

VERY vocal complaints about SW, from tourny and casual gamers alike.

captain collius wrote:

daedalus wrote:There was quite a bit of groaning here locally about SW after they dropped. I'm guessing it went like IG. Nowadays, I don't feel like there's nearly as many people who get as huffy about IG as there was a couple years ago.

There almost always is. New codex=grumbles it should be a part of our understanding of the hobby. Heck when i started playing and my brother showed me what brightlance did I thought that was OP its just the way things are.

Necrons havn't quite caused the grumbling of Gray Knights.

daedalus wrote:There was quite a bit of groaning here locally about SW after they dropped. I'm guessing it went like IG. Nowadays, I don't feel like there's nearly as many people who get as huffy about IG as there was a couple years ago.

The IG codex set the bar for a shooty codex for all of 5th edition. Look at the codex's released for 5th edition.

Necrons...................November 2011
Sisters of Battle.......September 2011
Grey Knights...........April 2011
Dark Eldar...............November 2010
Blood Angels...........April 2010
Tyranids..................January 2010
Space Wolves..........October 2009
Imperial Guard .........May 2009
Space Marines.........October 2008

Most the codex's released after IG have had serious shooty abilities mixed into the codex. ('Nids and SoBs being the exception)
You can make an excellent shooty list with SW, BA, DE, and GK. Necrons are a strange army that is full of tricks, which is where it gets it strength from.
So now can you really get all huffy about IG? Well, they still have some great point-for-point units, but their not as OP they were due to the strength of the other codexes. While the IG codex is still rock solid, I don't think its as OP as it was in 2009.

If you remove Vendettas you can't really call the IG codex unbalanced at all. Even if you mech up with AV12 spam, each time one of them moves there's a 1 in 6 chance it will be immobilised if you play with decent amount of terrain.
And when they're popped, the unit inside will die, pin and flee, in that order.
And the less said about blobs the better.