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deathholydeath wrote:TBH the thing I find most ridiculous about GK is that they are better at fighting psykers than Daemons. All their special gear (psych out grenades, the silly stormraven missiles, and so on) only give them an edge against psykers, and the daemon codex has no psychic powers. It's just ironic.
not to say that they're not good against daemons, just that they're even better against psykers.
God, I need to sober up.

That's mostly because they decided to give them all the special stuff from ALL the ordo chapters...Just be glad they didn't get more Ordo Xeno's stuff on their main troops.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TL;DR: Grey Knights counter Space Marines the hardest, Space Marine players don't like this.

I would like nothing more than to play an Ork army, but the cheery thing there is Cleansing Flame. Nothing warms your heart like a third of your low armor save models disappearing after crawling through withering Purifier shooting. Lo! Here comes I6 and I4, on time, to follow the initial abuse. Okay, okay, so what if I take 'Ard Boyz! 'Ard Boyz don't get hit nearly as hard from Cleansing Flame owait Power Weapons at I6 lolol oh and Psycannons and Autocannons ignore your armor saves, whoopie.

But suppose!

If Horde units won't work, perhaps I can use an Elite unit. I need small, power brick units. A flamer may be good against boyz, but not as much against Nobz. Owait, lol, instant death from Force Weapons that bypass the 2+ armor save?

Okay, how about Nobz? Strength 8 shooting that bypasses FNP and instant kills. Whoopdie doo, and once I get into CC with the Purifiers they ignore my FNP and they can instant death on a force activation.

Okay, so I can't assault them, so I need to outshoot GKs? With Orks? Not only is that unfluffy, but it requires a complete reworking of my army list and it requires me to retire several HQ choices.

Why don't Orks have any psychic defense again?

A competent player should do much better with the GK codex than most of the others IMHO. That said there are other just as powerful builds within the SW, Mech BA, IG and DE codexs. It's just that the GK codex seems to have more of these builds to play around with, if your average joe blow turned up at the table he is more likely to be fielding some of these powerful combos since they are more prevalent throughout the codex.

I used to play a DoA BA army based on assault marines within tourneys but it got pushed out the window by the GK codex. I'm not angry about this... builds come and go, the meta changes, the game would be come very stagnant without this. As time passes I'm sure the GK will be taking a back seat to something else.

Seven Nobz on the charge kill ten Purifiers more often than not. If you only cause one unsaved wound for every six attacks, you are not causing that many instant deathes.
"Fluff" and "I need to rework my army!!!" is hardly an argument. You need to "rework" your army to be able to handle necron AV13 spam, too. If you weren't bringing a kff, kanz, battlewagons, buggies, koptaz, or shoota boyz already, you were building bad lists anyways. If you are not using a competitive list, everything is overpowered.

hmm isnt the math(S) more like 5 dead nobs if purifiers charge (just with I6 halberds no hammerhand or flame) thats 10 wounds... thats just plain stupid as nobs pay a hella lot for that extra wound (comnpared to a boy) and GK pay next to nothing for the FW.

I Blame GD for allowing this idiotic codex to exist, same with the space wolves.... infact i havent really liked any of 5th ED codex design (except newcrons and Deldar) in 3rd it was "barely enough is ok" 4th was "less is more" 5th is "More is more" hopefully 6th will be "enough is enough" lol

Jidmah wrote:Seven Nobz on the charge kill ten Purifiers more often than not. If you only cause one unsaved wound for every six attacks, you are not causing that many instant deathes.
"Fluff" and "I need to rework my army!!!" is hardly an argument. You need to "rework" your army to be able to handle necron AV13 spam, too. If you weren't bringing a kff, kanz, battlewagons, buggies, koptaz, or shoota boyz already, you were building bad lists anyways. If you are not using a competitive list, everything is overpowered.

Within a certain extent. If there are only a few competitive lists, particularly fluffy ones, then they're writing bad Codexes.

But I digress.

Seven Nobs cannot shoot, are not Fearless, and each instant death, as unlikely as it is, provides twice as much impact to combat resolution. Alongside this, you have the cheery proposition of a Dreadnought which can deliver 4 TL S8 shots which instant kill and reduce you to a mere 5+ save per model, producing a rather distressing number of casualties per turn. While being able to win an isolated assault phase against an equal cost Purifier unit with any degree of consistency is an unusual luxury compared to the comparable violence a Boyz unit will sustain, it is no substitute for the versatility, and more importantly, the capacity to shoot that Purifiers have that Nobs lack.

Which is more generally the angle of the critique I have been making. A Purifier squad can instant death multiwound models in cc, has an accessible and brainless anti-horde, or in the case of none of the above, can Hammerhand for good measure. Why, then, do they get Thunder Hammers at a 25 point discount?

Ive accidently had some luck against draigowing
That was more because i got fed up of everyone playing DE and started running fex's with 2 TL dev's.
Had a game after DE on night and realised the old saying was true enough.
"Sheer force, if its not working, your not using enough"

Long story short, each fex was putting out 12 shots a turn.
9 hits due to being TL.
7.5 wounds.
People will die, more so when i have 9 MC's in a list able to do this.
Just a case of keeping some distance as FW's and MC's dont mix all that well.

Granted Orks get a bad deal from this, but as do the daemons that i play.
Orks actually have high volumes of shooting when they need it though.

But alas, with each new army the game changes a bit, just a case of getting used to it and swapping your list around.
Which to be honest, i like.
The same list for 5 or so years would get boring.

TedNugent wrote:
They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

So, you think banshees should be 30ppm then? You dont seem to understand opp cost, at all. Makes your entire hyperbole ridden argument null and void.

You dont understand that when you MUST pay for an "upgrade" in every model you get that at a discount to a true option. That is universal. Its why TH/SS WG cost more than vanilla termies- because you get the luxury of having a lot of flexibility with the unit. So that 20ppm that dies as easily as any other marine? Thats a fair price. A1 each vs A2 GH for a start

Then onto your idea that shootas dont do so well...you do realise their shooting outdoes marine shooting, yes? They can wander forwards under a KFF bubble, happily shooting your squad, while taking far less in points cost in casualties in return. Then fleet and assault when they want to.

Your issue seems to be that you lose to GKs, and so think theyre OP. Are they tricky to play against? Yes. Are they a top tier army? With the right buiild - yes. Like most armies. But so are necrons. So are IG. So are SW.

Orks do really, really well against TAC GK lists (you know, the real GT lists, not your perfect counter to everything made up lists) due to sheer weight of attacks. You wave in against purifiers, expecting to lose bodies but you will take them down in the end - and you have bodies to spare.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

So, you think banshees should be 30ppm then? You dont seem to understand opp cost, at all. Makes your entire hyperbole ridden argument null and void.

You dont understand that when you MUST pay for an "upgrade" in every model you get that at a discount to a true option. That is universal. Its why TH/SS WG cost more than vanilla termies- because you get the luxury of having a lot of flexibility with the unit. So that 20ppm that dies as easily as any other marine? Thats a fair price. A1 each vs A2 GH for a start

Then onto your idea that shootas dont do so well...you do realise their shooting outdoes marine shooting, yes? They can wander forwards under a KFF bubble, happily shooting your squad, while taking far less in points cost in casualties in return. Then fleet and assault when they want to.

Your issue seems to be that you lose to GKs, and so think theyre OP. Are they tricky to play against? Yes. Are they a top tier army? With the right buiild - yes. Like most armies. But so are necrons. So are IG. So are SW.

Orks do really, really well against TAC GK lists (you know, the real GT lists, not your perfect counter to everything made up lists) due to sheer weight of attacks. You wave in against purifiers, expecting to lose bodies but you will take them down in the end - and you have bodies to spare.

Orks do well against unfocused, bit-of-everything GK lists that NOBODY uses in semi-serious games and above.

Ork shooting does not outdo marine shooting. Not by a long shot, so to speak. Worse range, harder targets, and most importantly, WAY worse weapons, having no melta or lascannon equivalent to deal with the truly high AV choices. KFF is good but it's barely enough to keep the army viable, and usually requires spamming either battlewagons or killa kans to offer true resiliency. Against the famed psyrifleman, those will -not- be enough. It's basic math.

Banshees should not be 30 ppm. GK should be priced taking into account their actual perks and the options they can access, or start losing those perks. I know it's not going to happen; its just food for thought.

TedNugent wrote:They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

This logic is incorrect. You don't pay upgrade costs for basic abilities. If that were true, howling banshees with fleet, 2 PWs, the banshees mask and shuriken pistol would have a net cost of -7 points, allows you to gain 70 points to your army by fielding 10 of them. Their bad, but not that bad!

TedNugent wrote:In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Trust me, the GH is just fine for a troops choice, and has no place bitching when comparing them to strike squads. The GH has the following advantages
* Free special weapon if their 10 man in size
* Cheaper initial special weapon
* Counter attack
* Acute sense (handy in a night-fight Necron environment)
* Extra hand weapon
* Wolf Banner (an extremely nice force multiplier)
* Ability to bury a CSM terminator in the squad
If you want to compare the strike squads to C:SM TAC squads, Ill buy what your selling -- but comparing them to the most point-effective MEQ TAC squad is not really a good point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:Orks do well against unfocused, bit-of-everything GK lists that NOBODY uses in semi-serious games and above

Are you saying orks can't do well vs GK?

Doug Johnson got to the game 6 winner bracket at Adepticon with his orks. He did not lose to GK, but lost to necrons.
http://www.adepticon.org/

I would wager that the ork codex today does not suck nearly as much as it did when leafblower lists were the mainstream.

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TL;DR: Grey Knights counter Space Marines the hardest, Space Marine players don't like this.

I would like nothing more than to play an Ork army, but the cheery thing there is Cleansing Flame. Nothing warms your heart like a third of your low armor save models disappearing after crawling through withering Purifier shooting. Lo! Here comes I6 and I4, on time, to follow the initial abuse. Okay, okay, so what if I take 'Ard Boyz! 'Ard Boyz don't get hit nearly as hard from Cleansing Flame owait Power Weapons at I6 lolol oh and Psycannons and Autocannons ignore your armor saves, whoopie.

But suppose!

If Horde units won't work, perhaps I can use an Elite unit. I need small, power brick units. A flamer may be good against boyz, but not as much against Nobz. Owait, lol, instant death from Force Weapons that bypass the 2+ armor save?

Okay, how about Nobz? Strength 8 shooting that bypasses FNP and instant kills. Whoopdie doo, and once I get into CC with the Purifiers they ignore my FNP and they can instant death on a force activation.

Okay, so I can't assault them, so I need to outshoot GKs? With Orks? Not only is that unfluffy, but it requires a complete reworking of my army list and it requires me to retire several HQ choices.

Why don't Orks have any psychic defense again?

A 30-man Shoota Boy mob with PK Nob will, on average, beat a 10-man Purifier squad (assuming 4 Psycannons and a hammer) on the charge, while losing if they get charged. Orks already lose when charged by most things, so that should be nothing new.

The same Purifier squad is going to kill an average of 4 Nobz and do 1 wound if charged by the Nobz. Assuming that the Nobz have 3 Klawz, they will kill 5 purifiers with the Klaws alone.

Conclusion: Force Weapons counter multi-wound models. Who would've thunk it? Meanwhile, 15 Burna templates kill 26ppm Purifiers just as good as they kill 15ppm Grey Hunters, as do Lootas, Killa Kanz, and Rokkits. Emperor help the Purifiers if Ghazghkull
decides to show up...

labmouse42 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

This logic is incorrect. You don't pay upgrade costs for basic abilities. If that were true, howling banshees with fleet, 2 PWs, the banshees mask and shuriken pistol would have a net cost of -7 points, allows you to gain 70 points to your army by fielding 10 of them. Their bad, but not that bad!

TedNugent wrote:In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Trust me, the GH is just fine for a troops choice, and has no place bitching when comparing them to strike squads. The GH has the following advantages
* Free special weapon if their 10 man in size
* Cheaper initial special weapon
* Counter attack
* Acute sense (handy in a night-fight Necron environment)
* Extra hand weapon
* Wolf Banner (an extremely nice force multiplier)
* Ability to bury a CSM terminator in the squad
If you want to compare the strike squads to C:SM TAC squads, Ill buy what your selling -- but comparing them to the most point-effective MEQ TAC squad is not really a good point.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sephyr wrote:Orks do well against unfocused, bit-of-everything GK lists that NOBODY uses in semi-serious games and above

Are you saying orks can't do well vs GK?

Doug Johnson got to the game 6 winner bracket at Adepticon with his orks. He did not lose to GK, but lost to necrons.
http://www.adepticon.org/

I would wager that the ork codex today does not suck nearly as much as it did when leafblower lists were the mainstream.

I wish every codex was written like orks, they have the best written codex of the lot

Formosa wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How are you losing an entire DW squad to 4 Str8 AP4 shots a turn?

Im back lol

I said "these things" meaning multiple there of and went on to say "that much shooting should" also meaning more than one lol, but its my fault for not being clear.

Nos: SW pay for the option of having alot of options, i think paying for options is silly though.

The marine TLAC dread is fairly priced for str7 shots for an extra 10pts the GK one ignores stuned/shaken results and another 5pts get str8 TLAC, its easy to get a dead a cover save adding to how tough they are. and that extra pip of str insta kills my IC

True cyclones are cheap for DW, add the price of the unit into the fold and ... 235pts to counter a 140pt model.. even i know thats bad maths.

Belial: hahahah combat master.. heheheh, i admit im lucky with good old Boblial he seems to be able to pull off crazy things his statline says he shouldnt, now if i could have a whole army of this undercosted "combat master" for that cost... well that would be broken. He is only undercosted due to the age of the book though when SS didnt give the 3++, for his stats and ability 150pts is more fair.

As to TH/SS spam doing well vs GK, im sure it does, but not all of us spam TH/SS tourney lists.

But this is DW, imagine how RW feel vs the grey knights...

just some notes
1. I only spam TH/SS against GK (havent played tournaments)
2.My ravenwing crys when facing them.
3. SHHHHHHHHHH SILENCE YOU FEWL DON"T LET THEM KNOW HOW GOOD HE IS OR THEY WILL NERF HIM. Ohhh but he is pretty fething awesome for 130 pts.

I think what happened is that Matt Ward couldnt win a single game of 40k, so invented the new GK so he could win.

Sephyr - odd, having seen a number of Ork players beat focussed GT level GK lists, I have to say your comment is flat out wrong.

Try the maths. A single tac squad, 10 man, is beaten round after round by an ork shoot boy mob in shooting. Every round. 18" assault 2 and rolling 60 dice (or more) a round does that. again, your statement is factually incorrect

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sephyr - odd, having seen a number of Ork players beat focussed GT level GK lists, I have to say your comment is flat out wrong.

Try the maths. A single tac squad, 10 man, is beaten round after round by an ork shoot boy mob in shooting. Every round. 18" assault 2 and rolling 60 dice (or more) a round does that. again, your statement is factually incorrect

In a tourny setting your prob right nos, but in a normal friendly enviroment it doesnt work this way normally as a take all comers list for orks doesnt match up well vs most of the grey knight lists out there, but i concede this is only in my local meta, yours may be diferent.

about the tac sqaud you are spot on though, i play shooty orks and they can be absolutely devestating, played 2 space wolf pod armies with a mate who was Tau and after i shot he didnt have much else to shoot at lol, circumstantial i know but hella funny

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, you think banshees should be 30ppm then? You dont seem to understand opp cost, at all. Makes your entire hyperbole ridden argument null and void.

I'm afraid it doesn't.

And your example itself is hyperbole. A EEQ is not an MEQ, first of all, and statlines have a legitimate impact on cost. Which is why I actually had the integrity to compare MEQs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You dont understand that when you MUST pay for an "upgrade" in every model you get that at a discount to a true option.

How do you know what I understand and don't understand.

I realize that there is a difference in terms of distributed cost. I've run the math on per model Stormshield upgrades versus per unit Stormshields. The question is what is the cost relative to the benefit. Are you really gaining so much just from being able to select which models will get chainswords and power swords? You're not getting into the nitty gritty, and that's what I began with. You're cheapening the conversation. Give me some depth. You've already begun with the ridiculous idea that I don't understand opportunity cost. It was assumed in my analysis. If you have an objection, raise it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That is universal. Its why TH/SS WG cost more than vanilla termies- because you get the luxury of having a lot of flexibility with the unit. So that 20ppm that dies as easily as any other marine? Thats a fair price. A1 each vs A2 GH for a start

Marines die easily?

20 ppm versus the indirect cost of upgrades? You seem to be unwilling to do the math here, so evidently I'm going to have to do it for you.

Yes, GH's do have an advantage in two respects - 1, Counter Attack, which is a legitimate and fierce USR. Two, they each have Boltguns and Bolt Pistols which allows very nearly the same flexibility as Storm Bolters with better CC results. They also synergize with Power Weapons, so the yield per weapon is going to be more substantial.

Note, however, GH's have one base attack - not two, in spite of the above notes. They also have no Sergeant, and this is huge. In a TAC squad, as much as they suck, at least I know when I'm putting a Power Sword on the Sergeant, it's a no brainer - base 2 attacks and a pistol, for a total of 3 power weapon attacks, no charge, for 15 points? But each GH model will see greater benefit than a basic Tac Marine for each additional PS. That's worth noting. Each GH model, with Counter-Attack, can sit back, rapid fire, and because he has a pistol, he can get charged and still attack with 3 Power Weapons per model. That reduces a lot of friction. I doubt a lot of GH players realize this.

So at 15PPM, let's say I buy 10 GH. Let's ignore SW for a strict CC analysis. That's 150, so I can get 2 PS for a net cost of 180 relative to 180 for 9 GKSS.

Assuming GH charge:


e.g. GH win by ~ 2 models

GK charge

e.g. GKSS wins with approx 3.5 models

e.g. GKSS outperform GH by a slight margin against MEQs in CC, whereas GH will probably handily outperform GKSS against low armor save models.

I would still rate GH as better in CC, but in the margins. So, cost-for-cost, do we need more bodies and a couple of <12" range SWs, or DS and better 24" range shooting. Also worth noting is Warp Quake and in particular, the fact that you can buy an entire GKSS with a Thunder Hammer for nearly the same cost as a Power Fist on a GH squad. GKSS also has Combat Squads which can add some essential versatility. So I don't really buy this cost argument. This is considering the fact that GHs are one of the most versatile and cost effective troop MEQs in -any- Codex.

Realistically, you could match the cost effectiveness and versatility of a GH squad with GKSS, -and- have Deep Strike to boot. I don't see how this adds up. Maybe you can help me?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then onto your idea that shootas dont do so well...you do realise their shooting outdoes marine shooting, yes? They can wander forwards under a KFF bubble, happily shooting your squad, while taking far less in points cost in casualties in return. Then fleet and assault when they want to.

Shootas do fine, when they're shooting infantry. It's when they have to deal with Cleansing Flame that it all goes to complete !@#$. That's in addition to the fact that they can't efficiently injure vehicles, and have a 6" range deficit against GKs.

One round of CC with a 19 man unit against 5 Purifiers:

Combat Res: Boyz lose combat by an astonishing 6 wounds, losing Fearless and thereby needing to pass a Leadership test at Ld 3. That's -with- a charge. Even with a Boss pole, do you seriously expect to win that?

The other astonishing thing is when you're taking 30% wounds on every model + 2 wounds at each 5 man Purifier unit before you even strike a blow, whatever margin you would conceivably win combat by would be a loss on the next assault, so however many boys you have left are effectively incapable of any further meaningful assault moves against Purifier units, so each unit of Boyz has one meaningful assault move per game. Likewise, Cleansing Flame scales to the number of Boyz, so go nuts, get a 30 man unit and assault a 5 man unit of Purifiers. You will wipe it out. What now? Now another 5 man unit of Purifiers can destroy your remaining unit of Boyz to a man before you strike a blow. That's why 5 man units of Purifiers are so effective, it multiplies the number of Cleansing Flame casts and forces you to split your assaults.

Do you even need to see what happens when Purifiers Assault? I mean, I know it's convenient to forget that they're equipped entirely with Assault weapons, but just for giggles:

Boyz lose combat by ten wounds, sinking beneath Fearless and forced to take a leadership test at - 0? Boss pole? Anyone?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your issue seems to be that you lose to GKs, and so think theyre OP.

Yeah, that's what it is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:With the right buiild - yes.

With the right build? There's only one? I wonder which one that is. They all look pretty solid to me.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Orks do really, really well against TAC GK lists (you know, the real GT lists, not your perfect counter to everything made up lists) due to sheer weight of attacks. You wave in against purifiers, expecting to lose bodies but you will take them down in the end - and you have bodies to spare.

I didn't realize that a naked Strike Squad was a "perfect counter to everything" list.

Nor did I realize that a 5 man 2 Halberd 2 Psycannon 1 NFH was a made up list.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Justin-Cooks-Grey-Knights-4th-Seed-Adepticon-2012.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Dave-Ankarlos-Grey-Knights-12th-Seed-Adepticon.pdf

PS, you do realize that Cleansing Flame happily scales to the number of bodies you throw at it? Do you realize that a single Knight of the Flame, if still alive, can cast Cleansing Flame and inflict ~13 wounds on a 30 man strong unit of Boyz?

BTW, Purifiers -are- the perfect counter to everything. They scale well to any AV value -- AV 10, 11, 12, and 14, they have Cleansing Flame against Horde armies, 2 base attacks and S5 Power Weapons against MEQs, and instant death sticks for multi wound models. So if you want to talk about cost effectiveness or efficiency per point spent, Purifiers give a fabulous value, which further mitigates their low model count.

I would hope that Purifiers are really killy for their points. they cost alot.

The way I run them is in units of 10 with 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, and 4 psycannons in a Rhino. Its 295 points for 10 T4 3+ save models. That's alot of points in something that is no more durable then a Tac squad.

How hard is it to kill 10 tactical marines?


And lets remember that to take these guys as Troops I use up an HQ slot. That means at best I can beef one squad with Grenades OR psychic powers(GM vs Librarian) I'm not taking a Techmarine because I need my Elite slots for Psyfledreds.

Grey Templar wrote:I would hope that Purifiers are really killy for their points. they cost alot.

The way I run them is in units of 10 with 5 Halberds, 1 Hammer, and 4 psycannons in a Rhino. Its 295 points for 10 T4 3+ save models. That's alot of points in something that is no more durable then a Tac squad.

True, but Tac squads are red herrings anyway; There's nothing gained from shooting Tac squads - you'd have to drill thru 8 Bolter MEQs before you hit something important.

And even that considered, a Tac squad costs you 170 for 10m, the Rhino costs you 35, so 205 points with a Missile. Add a Lascannon to compete with the Psycannon and sit at home field - that's 10 points - add a Power Fist to compete with your Daemon Hammer, that's 25 points. Give the squad a Flamer to compete with your Cleansing Flame - more or less, but then you don't have any SW for AV. Anyway, that's a moderately effective squad at 240 points, or 205 points if you were going bargain bin to babysit home plate.

Grey Templar wrote:
And lets remember that to take these guys as Troops I use up an HQ slot. That means at best I can beef one squad with Grenades OR psychic powers(GM vs Librarian) I'm not taking a Techmarine because I need my Elite slots for Psyfledreds.

That's a fair point, but I would argue that the more Purifiers and Psyfleman Dreads, the better, so I would content that the greater loss is the 150 points for a mediocre/sucky HQ.

I will acknowledge the Crowe tax and I think it will serve for a more complete tally of a GK list's limitations.

Thats another thing.

With Tac squads I'm losing bolter boys who are literally only useful as ablative wounds.

With Purifiers I'm kinda stuck. Do I get rid of Halberds or my Psycannon caddies. Everyone costs alot of points and is useful.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats another thing.

With Tac squads I'm losing bolter boys who are literally only useful as ablative wounds.

With Purifiers I'm kinda stuck. Do I get rid of Halberds or my Psycannon caddies. Everyone costs alot of points and is useful.

Very true.

At least you have 6 models to remove before you start pulling Psycannons.

And at least you don't have to buy 8 useless models just to field them

Except thats just it.

Do I pull Halberd dudes and lower my melee ability or do I pull psycannons and lower my shooting ability?

Hey...i got something surprising to say... i beat a 2000 point GK army...with Tau. Yep. Tau. The wimpy blue fish people from the Eastern Fringe. 9 Crisis Suits with 2 plasma rifles apiece handled any marine not in a transport, 3 broadsides handled ALL the transports, and then killed the surviving marines with the help of a pair of 6 man fire warriors squads, two six man stealth teams handled the AC and Psi-spamming dreads, and my Ionhead took down the Stormraven my opponent as counting on to turn the tide of the battle. I took major casualties, but still pulled it out by turn 6

Purifiers are the perfect counter to everything?More hyperbolic nonsense.

You've devolved to the same level of anti gk as most on here, out

Blaze - yep, tau win the 120 man uk Indy gt thIs year, they do well at the current meta, only really suffering with missions where they have to advance and hold

nosferatu1001 wrote:Purifiers are the perfect counter to everything?More hyperbolic nonsense.

You've devolved to the same level of anti gk as most on here, out

Blaze - yep, tau win the 120 man uk Indy gt thIs year, they do well at the current meta, only really suffering with missions where they have to advance and hold

Yeah being a perfect counter is not right, they are a good counter to almost everything.

I have noticed on here alot of people talk about how the SB beating orks shootas etc... why hasnt anyone noted the psycannon?

im pretty new to gaming but i understand that if you have SM Scouts with snipers and camo cloaks high up in a building they could do some dmg against grey knights

bobamus87 wrote: I know I play Space Wolves, but there's only a few cheesey things you can do with them, most of which revolve around Thunderwolves...

I have to say I am laughing at this line a lot...there a lot of cheesy aspects in the Space Wolves book and most of them do *not* revolve around Thunderwolves. Really??

As for GKs yep they are annoying. Yep they are new kids on the block and have some special abilites, but there are really just overpriced space marines. In your example you charged a unit that is designed to draw in targets for hand to hand. If you had shot the heck out of them with your non-cheesy (yeah, hahahaha) long fangs you would have wiped them out without breaking a sweat. Live and learn and you will deal with them fine. Space wolf army with multiple land raiders on the table and I do find it interesting that you are complaining that your opponent's GK force was unbalanced or crazy. Pot, meet the kettle.

Skriker

TedNugent wrote:Note, however, GH's have one base attack - not two, in spite of the above notes. They also have no Sergeant, and this is huge. In a TAC squad, as much as they suck, at least I know when I'm putting a Power Sword on the Sergeant, it's a no brainer - base 2 attacks and a pistol, for a total of 3 power weapon attacks, no charge, for 15 points? But each GH model will see greater benefit than a basic Tac Marine for each additional PS. That's worth noting. Each GH model, with Counter-Attack, can sit back, rapid fire, and because he has a pistol, he can get charged and still attack with 3 Power Weapons per model. That reduces a lot of friction. I doubt a lot of GH players realize this.

You missed a few other points in your comparison.

* The wolf standard is an excellent force multiplier. It increases your chance to hit/wound from 50% to 58% on the first round of combat.

* 10 GH get a free special weapon. They also get their first special weapon 5pts cheaper than other MEQ codex's. Unlike GK or BA, the SW still gets 3 attacks on the (counter)charge with a special weapon.

* If they don't mind footslogging, you can throw a wolf guard in terminator armor and a PF/SB in your squad for 42 points.

* In a 10 man GKSS, your going to have 2 psycannons. Thats 2 fewer force weapon attacks.

* Your GK justicar can take a master crafted demon hammer for 15 points.

I think the reason people call GKs cheesy is because they thought they could use the same tactic they used elsewhere. They assume their melee unit can take them out.

If you charge any multi-wound unit into a Halberd squard you deserve to lose. GKs eat multi-wound units for breakfast.


Its the same reason you wouldn't use a Land Raider to tank shock a sqaud with a Meltagun off an objective. If you send anything into its hard counter of course its going to die.

Purifiers are a good CC unit because they can take on elite and horde in equal measure while also being decently shooty.

However their vulnerability is that they are less durable point for point then other units. A kitted out unit is almost twice as expensive as a full Tac squad for absolutly no increase in durability.

So shoot them, shoot them dead.

You know, nobz actually do fine vs. purifiers, if they get the charge. Yeah, you're going to lose a few more nobz, but the purifiers cost a lot, and you generally get your money's worth. 7 allocated nobz can handle a ten-man purifier squad. They kill all the purifiers on the charge, and get whittled down to a 5-man allocated squad, which, in turn, can take down a 5 man squad of purifers (again, assuming the nobz get the charge) Of course, there are a ton of variables here, the nobz can get shot, the purifiers might be in cover so you lose int, the nobz might lose the charge and get krumped, but it's far from the whole "Oh, if you charge the purifiers with those nobz, they will just insta-kill you an you will auto-lose." The squad leader has a hammer, which will cause the same amount of kills as sergents with pf, so nothing changes there, and then almost half of the squad doesn't have force weapons due to psycannons.