Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Formosa wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Which goes to IG as they came first, than SW, than GK.

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Me too. *pulls up a chair and gets popcorn*

Grimtuff wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Me too. *pulls up a chair and gets popcorn*

*snitches some popcorn*

Yep, because you know, my poor Daemons only rip SW's into tiny little bits on a regular basis!
But for some reason, those 'balanced & shining examples of perfection' GK's can take 20 guys and pretty much auto-win any game against me.

But ther eyou have it folks, Phil Kelly's books are poisoning the game!
Eldar which got re-written on him, SW's who have the same undercosted transports as all marines and 2 undercosted units & DE who have one of the harshest learning curves in the game have killed 5ht edition!

nosferatu1001 wrote:DE Venomspam usually relies on getting the important stuff shot down by ravagers *first*, while suicide squads move in with venoms.

They do? Hell. I usually need alot more than 9 shots to kill all those transports I keep seeing. Especially all the ones that shrug off my Shaken and Stunned results...

The point of mentionning venoms, as you seem to have missed it, was that Ted made the hilarious claim that GK transports were the best. I pointed out a number of ways that the Phil Kelly "mandatory 10 point upgrade" venom which costs about 5pts more could be considered better than a psyback, to prove that the argument was complete nonsense - again.

And this can be a point of discussion. However, compare the utility of the gun on the two vehicles. Vs only tanks, the Psyback wins. Vs Only Infantry, (competitive, as the venom does better against GEq, the TL Psybolt AC outperforms against everything else). And vs any target (the Psyback wins) Now compare the survivability. The Venom actually evens out to almost AV11 standards by tossing in the Flickerfield against most weapons. However it is harder to hide and get a 4+ save for, and has no means of ignoring shaken, stunned, or psyker powers. Lets look at speed: Venom. No question. How about the survivability for passengers? Psyback. The guys inside are T4 with PA. Great. Now last, what about payload? The Psyback can carry no more than 6PAGK models which may have upwards of 4 Psycannons inside, (5? Can any IC's in PA take one?) So that's 16 S7 rending shots from the passengers. The Venom can take, at best, 5 riders with Blasters. 18" range S8 lances. Those models have T3 and a 5+. I won't lie: 5 lances is scary. But 16 S7 rending shots? Brown trousers time.

Nagashek - then venoms stay at 36", away from the 24" range guns, until the ravagers have killed enough transports for you to splinter the guys inside to death.

They do? Awesome! I'll have to remember that next time I have any left and remind my opponant that his twelve TL S8 shots at 48" should go at Venoms or Raiders instead so I can implement this plan.

Formosa wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Yep, IG didnt break the game *nearly* as much as SW did, quite a way before GK were even released.

Two undercosted units? I assume you're talking about GH and LF - wha about RP, who have the best LD10 psyker defence in the game, are hella cheap and customisable with an array of very, very good psychic powers (LL, MH, Jaws to a lesser extent) that can take on essentially any enemy...and so on. Not to mention the most hideous named set of units ever - wolf wolf born?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Reivax26 wrote:SW broke 5th?

Please explain how it was them that did it and not the GK's. I am dying to hear this.

Maybe he means SW were the first army that has alot of undercosted and powerfull units in 5th?

Yep, IG didnt break the game *nearly* as much as SW did, quite a way before GK were even released.

Two undercosted units? I assume you're talking about GH and LF - wha about RP, who have the best LD10 psyker defence in the game, are hella cheap and customisable with an array of very, very good psychic powers (LL, MH, Jaws to a lesser extent) that can take on essentially any enemy...and so on. Not to mention the most hideous named set of units ever - wolf wolf born?

Their naming conventions broke 5th ed.? RIIIIGGGGHHHHHHTT......

Ah, brilliant dissection there! ALmost like all you did was respond to the throwaway comment at the end, leaving any substance to your posting out

I guess I was wrong - this thread is *exactly* like all the other "GK are OP!!!!!!! the world is ending!!!" whine fests out there - no hope of actual debate about the strengths and weaknesses, just more people who cant cope with changes to the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, brilliant dissection there! ALmost like all you did was respond to the throwaway comment at the end, leaving any substance to your posting out

I guess I was wrong - this thread is *exactly* like all the other "GK are OP!!!!!!! the world is ending!!!" whine fests out there - no hope of actual debate about the strengths and weaknesses, just more people who cant cope with changes to the game.

When the absolute only way I can cope with another army is, "don't go last", I think something's gone wrong...

Funnily enough, my Daemons can crush every other army out there, so I know it's not my book that's busted as feth.

Yep, SS and Interceptors arent good for you.

You hardly see them in competitive, TAC lists though.

Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

suppose it depends on friendly game or not, id be happy to run on the assumption theres a chaos gate just behind the other guys deployment line and alot of other people would be happy to make home fixes im sure

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

Maybe YOU don't see GKSS's & Interceptors in any tourny lists in your YOUR area, but MY area is full of 'em. Any Dragiowing list for example that I've come across in recent months has included either 10 Strikes and/or 10 Interceptors as support units.
They're far cheaper than the Pallies, and really, you only need 10-15 or so Pallies to have a rock solid center. Plus, because it's not just Daemons, but also the likes of drop pods/spore pods/DoA's/Deathwing assault/etc... Warp quake has become very popular because it gives the entire GK army instant protection from any deep striking nasties like those awful meltaguns that hard-counter the Pallies rather nicely!

You also seem to be of the belief that you need 'oodles of the buggers to 110% screw over a Daemon army. (or any deep strike army for that matter)
A single 10 man squad, fully spaced out to maximise the 2" coherency rule can completely lock-off an area 30"x24"ish. That's utterly obscene! And that's the instant mishap zone alone! Of corse, if you're a smart player when deep striking, you would factor in the likelyhood of your 7" average scatter, so to 'safely' avoid the quake zone, you'd drop just over 7" away from that area, or rather, you'd drop just over the footprint of your unit away from that area.

So one squad of 10 guys has just effectively denied roughly a 3rd of your average 6'x4' table. Then factor in the likelyhood of things like impassible terrain, and you can see that ' hole quake' is perhaps the game's most broken ability...

AND just to finish it off, now imagine you're up against some rules lawyer who then uses the warp quake wording to manipulate the mishap chart and effectively gain an outright 50/50 chance of auto-destroying your entire unit. (Have fun with that! )



I don't fear a list that's included 30-40+ GKSS marines because those are few and far between, and they suffer vs alot of other optimised opponents. (they lack real psycannon spam, warp quake isn't needed in those numbers, you're not getting other big threats like henchmen or purifyers on top of your psyflemen, your assault ability is purely 'mop-up mode', etc...)
I do however fear every single GK list that has just one 10 man warp quake squad, because it will put me waaaaaaaaay back on my board edge and make the game absolutely no fun. (and like I said, in MY area, 10 warp quake capable marines are rather common in most lists!)

GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

Chaos daemons was the last codex of the 4th edition, it is newer than orks, eldar, and CSM.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

Chaos daemons was the last codex of the 4th edition, it is newer than orks, eldar, and CSM.

And it still isn't, in my opinion, executed in a good fashion and hasn't aged well. Arguably, neither has the Eldar or CSM Codex, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Daemons do surprisingly well against GK lists that don't spam Warp Quake, which is all the competitive lists.

And even then it just highlights the poor codex design of the Daemon Codex. GW seems to think that Deep Striking is drop dead amazing when its actually kinda lame.

The only lists that can kinda pull off an all Deep Strike army are Drop Pod lists. DoA was ok for a while but its largely fallen by the wayside.


Aside from their BS deployment, the Daemon book is good. It just needs one change, make the Deep Strike optional.

Maybe YOU don't see GKSS's & Interceptors in any tourny lists in your YOUR area, but MY area is full of 'em. Any Dragiowing list for example that I've come across in recent months has included either 10 Strikes and/or 10 Interceptors as support units.
They're far cheaper than the Pallies, and really, you only need 10-15 or so Pallies to have a rock solid center. Plus, because it's not just Daemons, but also the likes of drop pods/spore pods/DoA's/Deathwing assault/etc... Warp quake has become very popular because it gives the entire GK army instant protection from any deep striking nasties like those awful meltaguns that hard-counter the Pallies rather nicely!

You also seem to be of the belief that you need 'oodles of the buggers to 110% screw over a Daemon army. (or any deep strike army for that matter)
A single 10 man squad, fully spaced out to maximise the 2" coherency rule can completely lock-off an area 30"x24"ish. That's utterly obscene! And that's the instant mishap zone alone! Of corse, if you're a smart player when deep striking, you would factor in the likelyhood of your 7" average scatter, so to 'safely' avoid the quake zone, you'd drop just over 7" away from that area, or rather, you'd drop just over the footprint of your unit away from that area.

So one squad of 10 guys has just effectively denied roughly a 3rd of your average 6'x4' table. Then factor in the likelyhood of things like impassible terrain, and you can see that ' hole quake' is perhaps the game's most broken ability...

AND just to finish it off, now imagine you're up against some rules lawyer who then uses the warp quake wording to manipulate the mishap chart and effectively gain an outright 50/50 chance of auto-destroying your entire unit. (Have fun with that! )

Thats exactly how Warp Quake was intended to be used. To create a no deep strike zone.

Your saying your Daemons are screwed because they can't deep strike near the GKs. Why on earth would you want to do that?


It seems like Daemons want to Deep Strike away from the enemy, get organized, and then start footslogging toawrds them.

I really don't see a problem here.

Why GK ruined 5th

Warp Quake (its too good). Automatic mishap, even with special gear. It should be automatic mishap, if you are equipped with special gear go to normal scatter.

5 point str upgrade to guns,

transports with TL guns that can be taken for 12 points in acolytes.

psychotroke and rad grenadtes

vehicles that ignore stunned and shaken results 91.7% of the time

SW hold not a candle to these options, most armies could deal with SW Long fang spam or T.Wolf, they were infantry and had to get out to do stuff and their vehicles were not nearly as spamable or as resilient. Matt Ward was a glorified receptionist and the folks at GW that passed on the GK codex and allowed this ruined the meta so basicly you either take an all AV14 army and hope to face GK or just just take as many AT weapons as possible. There is very little diverity because of the glaring oversites in the GK codex.

If people play actual GK they are fairly easy to deal with when people play the psyspam its just annoying lame and unfluffy but that has never stopped the WAAC's.

GK have too many near automatic or automatic effects which really ruins a game of chance (rolling dice).

Compare Above mention GK abilities to the dreaded MSS. MSS is a great peice of wargear on a ld 10 character 50% of the time you fail. Its still worth its points. It can be mitigated by intelegent players by taking advanage of the B2B randomization and requirement. MSS is an example of good design.

GK are an example of bad design.
Psychotroke and rad grenades always go off, no way to mitigate very cheap for effect.
+1 str super cheap as well comparable abilities are almost unheard of and if availible cast an order of magnitude more. Flashgits +5 points per model, and they are BS2, not TL BS4.
Ingore shake or stunned 91% of the time, extra amror cost 10-15 points for everyone and still leaves you shaken. Living metal 50% success on ignoring stunned.

The ability to really buy transports without anything of value to transport.

GK are poorly designed and honeslty if you disagree you are probably dishonest or lack the fundemental analytical skills god gave a june bug.

I like several of the GK players I play against but they play fluffy armies even draigowing is completely acceptable. I never consider IG, SW, or BA to be as bad as the GK in terms of game breaking mechanics and design.

tgf wrote:
5 point str upgrade to guns,

All of them? Just the ones on razorbacks? Just the ones on dreadnoughts? You should quantify these things, otherwise someone can just stick their tongue out and go, "nuh-uh!", like has been happening back and forth this entire thread.

transports with TL guns that can be taken for 12 points in acolytes.

And? They get at most 6 of those. IG can chimeraspam in even greater numbers, albeit more expensively, and in a lot of ways, chimeras are almost as good. If you can't deal with a razorspam list that has 18 REALLY flimsy models for troops, well...

psychostroke and rad grenades

The grenades are nasty and unnecessary, sure. So was JotWW.

vehicles that ignore stunned and shaken results 91.7% of the time

The only army I feel like lives or dies by keeping vehicles stunned nowadays is Nids. At least, that I can think of. Are Necrons still "glance or bust"?

SW hold not a candle to these options, most armies could deal with SW Long fang spam or T.Wolf, they were infantry and had to get out to do stuff and their vehicles were not nearly as spamable or as resilient. Matt Ward is a slow and the folks at GW that passed on the GK codex and allowed this ruined the meta so basically you either take an all AV14 army and hope to face GK or just just take as many AT weapons as possible. There is very little diversity because of the glaring oversights in the GK codex.

I really don't see how much harder it is to kill a psyfleman than it is a LF squad. Different to kill, sure, but not harder. A lucky lascannon vs a torrent of fire. I'd say for a lot of armies, killing the psyfleman is actually easier.

If people play actual GK they are fairly easy to deal with when people play the psyspam its just annoying lame and unfluffy but that has never stopped the WAAC's.

I'm not sure what this means.

As an afterthought, I wanted to clarify that this section of my post was not directed at tgf, nor at any particular member of the board, but rather my attitude on the 'issue' as a whole:
My point is, there has always been a codex or two that is top tier, and that's GK right now. For a while, it was SW that were a little too good, previously it was Orks that had their moment, then Eldar, then CSM. My point is that the tears and gnashing of teeth DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING. It doesn't make the GK go away. It doesn't make GW appear, take away your opponent's GK codex and replace it with the DH one. This is all just a nonstop, borderline obsessive circlejerk that doesn't add any value to much of anything, except continue to blow the 'situation' that much more out of proportion, especially mere weeks before 6th edition is supposed to rein them in. Save the tears up and see if they're needed then, not now.

daedalus wrote:

tgf wrote:
psychostroke and rad grenades

The grenades are nasty and unnecessary, sure. So was JotWW.

True, but Jaws can be stopped via psychic defence but there is no anti-grenade defence.

daedalus wrote:

tgf wrote:SW hold not a candle to these options, most armies could deal with SW Long fang spam or T.Wolf, they were infantry and had to get out to do stuff and their vehicles were not nearly as spamable or as resilient. Matt Ward is a slow and the folks at GW that passed on the GK codex and allowed this ruined the meta so basically you either take an all AV14 army and hope to face GK or just just take as many AT weapons as possible. There is very little diversity because of the glaring oversights in the GK codex.

I really don't see how much harder it is to kill a psyfleman than it is a LF squad. Different to kill, sure, but not harder. A lucky lascannon vs a torrent of fire. I'd say for a lot of armies, killing the psyfleman is actually easier.

I'd agree with this, apart from when the Dreadnought is venerable.

Honestly, I would say that currently Grey Knights are cheesey than Space Wolves, I know that Space Wolves do have some whacky, nasty little rules of their own, like being able to split Wolf Guard into different squads, come on the backside of the board with Wolf Scouts, and split fire with Long Fangs, but in terms of army builds there isn't much that Space Wolves can do that Grey Knights don't do better. That said, I completely agree with Daedalus, whining isn't going to make any difference, and there is always going to be one Codex that everyone sees as slightly more powerful than the others, and people will moan about how OP it is.

@tgf - You forgot DCA .

i agree with a lot of you but may i put a sinario forward

first of all can you fit this in a 600pt list?

draigo

1 dread knight

1 terminator squad 5 strong

1 strike squad 5 strong

and a squad of paladins 5 strong

If not a guy i know is owed a kick in the meat and veg

No way can that fit in 600 points.

Draigo and the Terminators alone is 475 points.


Thats easily a 1000 point list with only minimal upgrades.

No. Draigo is 275 points iirc and paladins are 55 points each plus options.

No, not a chance.

EDIT: Double d

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:GK's have utterly broken MY army! My poor Daemons have been sitting on a shelf for over 9 months now because of the local saturation of GK's everywhere. Tell me how that's balanced please?!

The same way that Space Wolves pretty much breaks Black Templars. You're just as gak outta luck as my army is, just against different enemies. That's what having a poorly-made or old Codex is like. Just as you've been able to fight and hold your own against every Codex bar GK, so have I managed to fight and hold my own against everyone bar SW (and that's including GK). It sucks, but we can still win against them.

To get to the point, I don't believe that this is a problem with Grey Knights or Space Wolves, but rather with our respective Codices not having aged very well.

SW broke Black Templars? huh? Nothing about the SW codex prevents my black templars from setting up on the table. I have two space wolf players in my area and have played them often with my templars and every game has been relatively close with the balance of our books never even being brought up as a deciding factor.

Now my chaos daemons on the other hand? GK pay a single point to get 2 initiative and strike at the same time as my Slaanesh daemons. The game is over the second I ask someone if they want to play and he puts down grey knights.

Here is a challenge for you and a friend. one of you make a space wolf list knowing your opponent will be making a black templar list. Have the other person do the same with templars. Play the game. Was it a fun game? It should be unless one of you has no idea what you are doing.
Now do the same with Grey Knights and daemons. Did the game last past turn 2? If yes, you did it wrong.

GK are a plague upon 40k. but GW loves it because they are selling tons of marine models because of them. I just hope they get a codex early in 6th. Not because they need it like the older books do. But because the game as a whole needs GK toned down.

2 points, not "a single" point. Free on terminators. Your daemonettes still put out a ton of attacks, which is still one of th best ways of killing PA armies.

You wont play any GK army? Waht about spamback armies, which dont have any warpquake, and usually 15 PAGK with a total of *6* halberds in them? You should be all over that with no issues - you outclass it in most ways that matter, as it is designed to kill AV11 spam armies.

WQ is bad for daemons, but thats the result of daemons being a 1st try codex - see OK in fantasy for how well armies do first time out, the initial DE codex, etc. Dont blame YOUR codexes bad design on other codexes.

Yeah, GKs only hurt daemons when they spam warp quake. Which no competitive list does.

The Deathless Host wrote:i agree with a lot of you but may i put a sinario forward

first of all can you fit this in a 600pt list?

draigo

1 dread knight

1 terminator squad 5 strong

1 strike squad 5 strong

and a squad of paladins 5 strong

If not a guy i know is owed a kick in the meat and veg

Lets put it this way i played a guy who was running a draigo wing at 500 pts he had draigo and 4 paladins with no special weapons (i don't think halbereds cost anything.) thats around 495 points. so the question is can you fit a strike squad a termie squad and a paladin inside 100 points

Grey Templar wrote:
Thats exactly how Warp Quake was intended to be used. To create a no deep strike zone.

Your saying your Daemons are screwed because they can't deep strike near the GKs. Why on earth would you want to do that?


It seems like Daemons want to Deep Strike away from the enemy, get organized, and then start footslogging toawrds them.

I really don't see a problem here.

Warp Quake would be just as effective at preventing scary alpha-strike DS'ers like those meltaguns or tzeentch flamers with only a 6" radius per model casting it. The 12" is on the level of '7th ed Daemons stupidity' in how game-breaking it is. A meltagun for example that's forced to sit more than 6" from it's target is simply an ap1 missile launcher and not nearly as huge a threat at tank-busting as the 2D6 version it's ment to be used as.
Ward ed-up again, plain and simple, and GW ed-up even more for not catching the potential abuses of the rule in question.



And really? As a Daemon player I want to land away from my enemies? With little to no shooting, and an army fully dedicated to being as assaulty as Orks or 'Nids?! (thank-you for that, I really needed a good laugh today! )

No, as an actual Daemon player, I WANT to have most of my units in your face. Keepers, most Heralds, 'Crushers, Flamers, Beasts (who uses those btw?!), Nurglings, Bloodletters, Daemonettes & Princes want to be within that 10"-13" range of you because they're all assault units with limited threat ranges and/or good alpha-strike units.
Units like Plaguebearers & Horrors are either ment to take forward/middle ground objectives and/or snipe things with limited range shooting attacks. (you think GK's have no range? Daemons have nothing beyond 36"!!!)
Fiends, 'Thirsters, winged Prices (because wings are way over-costed), Seekers, Hounds, Screamers & Furies (HAHAHA!!! I made a funny!), all want to hit within about 18" of their target because they're either jump infantry or calvalry.

Daemons aren't a stand about & organise army like Orks or 'Nids. They're a 100% shock-assault army for over-agressive types. I get organised by planning out the points on your lines I need to hit immediately come turn 2 and drop in accordingly. Being forced to sit back with everything 18"-24"+ away is a death sentance because even a full-on Tzeentch army can't outshoot most opponents in a srait-up gun battle.

Think about it. Outside of some GK's units or a serious deathstar, what unit in the game is really going to think charging a unit of 6-8 Bloodcrushers is a 'good' idea?! Maybe large boyz mobs, powerblob IG or a horde of 'stealers?! (But then, why aren't you sending Fiends & Pinkies after them like you should be? )



Deep Strike works well for Daemons considering how the army itself is ment to work. GK's & their warp quake crap is what broke the army...