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How are you losing an entire DW squad to 4 Str8 AP4 shots a turn?

Being a guard player i try to not compain about other codexes that are strong as i have vendettas, veterans, hydras and everything else, but seeing a SW player compain about GK makes me lolz.

labmouse42 wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:This isn't a flame thread, just a discussion. Just played a game last night, and got a hard fought tie, @ 2500 with my Space Wolves, vs. Grey knights, and some things really made me wonder what Matt Ward, and games Dev was thinking with Codex: Grey Knights.

Firstly, GK are currently the best codex. This may change in 2 weeks.

Secondly, on behalf of every C:SM, CSM, Ork, Tau, BA, Demon, DA, Eldar, SoB and Nid army out there.
Kettle, thou art black

amen

I run a Pure Deathwing and i can beat a GK army most of the time but they do have some simply ridiculous abilities such as the abilitiy for a standard ten man squad of terminators to put out 16 s 5 shots and 8 s7 rending shots WTF. I actually played GK and had a guy beat in objectives till turn seven when he unleashed that hellstorm of fire on my last unit of terminators. (true i failed one save each and my apothecary failed to save them both but still.)

I have played GK a few times, and with two different armies, IG and Orks. With the IG I just tried to blast him with large templates from a "safe" distance away. With all those invul saves and the fact that the paladins get the 2+ against the battle cannon doesn't help the IG. The fact that he fielded three storm ravens to totaly dispose of my leman russes, all 8 of them, he just crushed me.

When using orks, I tried the true method of orks, outnumber. I field around 140 or so to his 37. He just wiped me out. With 2+,5+ with feel no pain two wound (with all wound allocation tricks) it was near impossible to even wound any of his paladins. Even orks with nobs and wound allocation tricks, it is nothing like what the GK can do.

GK are over powered. Will be until 6th comes out and does something against it. I am to the point of avoiding playing GK for numerous reasons. Mainly, almost all armies are the WAAC builds, and, the fact that every thing has a psychic power of some sort, (oh look, rolled less than a ten on 2D6), and just nullifies almost anything anyone can do.

If you have played Magic the Gathering at all, I equate playing against GK like playing against blue counterspell decks. Nothing worse than not getting to play the way your amry or deck was ment to be played.

Formosa wrote:
tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

No you dont. You pay the same as most - plus 5pts for fearless and DWA. You in fact get them a LOT cheaper than SW do, who pay 63ppm for TH SS terminators without fearless, but with CA. Additionally what does this extra pip of strength do to you at all? 125 point marine TLAC wound you on 2s just as well as their 135pt brothers in the GK codex, hit just as well to start with, so if youre complaing about psyriflemen i presume youre also complaining about standard marine ones?

If 4 shots is wiping a squad a turn, your opponent is cheating. You also DO have super cheap anti vehicles, theyre called "cyclone missile launchers" which you get in every troops unit, along with a *very* cheap HQ in Belial who, for his points is a very capable close combat master.

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martin - erm, most psychic powers are at Ld9, some LD8. Only libbies and the rarely seen GKGM will have Ld10 powers

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Formosa wrote:
tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

No you dont. You pay the same as most - plus 5pts for fearless and DWA. You in fact get them a LOT cheaper than SW do, who pay 63ppm for TH SS terminators without fearless, but with CA. Additionally what does this extra pip of strength do to you at all? 125 point marine TLAC wound you on 2s just as well as their 135pt brothers in the GK codex, hit just as well to start with, so if youre complaing about psyriflemen i presume youre also complaining about standard marine ones?

If 4 shots is wiping a squad a turn, your opponent is cheating. You also DO have super cheap anti vehicles, theyre called "cyclone missile launchers" which you get in every troops unit, along with a *very* cheap HQ in Belial who, for his points is a very capable close combat master.

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martin - erm, most psychic powers are at Ld9, some LD8. Only libbies and the rarely seen GKGM will have Ld10 powers

TH/SS spam is the hard counter to GK believe me.
thwe weakness of our Army is we lack the ability to shoot very well. we have to take Speeders and predators to do so.

captain collius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Formosa wrote:
tis true, but my point is i pay alot for those SS or PF or just PW, i dont get them for free (or a massive discount), i mean with how cheap psyfleman are its gross, these things can easily wipe a DW unit out a turn (to be fair that much shooting should) but i dont have an equiv to fight back with (by that i mean a supercheap anti vehicle platform that is very resiliant for the cost)

No you dont. You pay the same as most - plus 5pts for fearless and DWA. You in fact get them a LOT cheaper than SW do, who pay 63ppm for TH SS terminators without fearless, but with CA. Additionally what does this extra pip of strength do to you at all? 125 point marine TLAC wound you on 2s just as well as their 135pt brothers in the GK codex, hit just as well to start with, so if youre complaing about psyriflemen i presume youre also complaining about standard marine ones?

If 4 shots is wiping a squad a turn, your opponent is cheating. You also DO have super cheap anti vehicles, theyre called "cyclone missile launchers" which you get in every troops unit, along with a *very* cheap HQ in Belial who, for his points is a very capable close combat master.

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martin - erm, most psychic powers are at Ld9, some LD8. Only libbies and the rarely seen GKGM will have Ld10 powers

TH/SS spam is the hard counter to GK believe me.
thwe weakness of our Army is we lack the ability to shoot very well. we have to take Speeders and predators to do so.

forgive me, didnt realise DA were refused storm bolters ok il admit, GK have a +1S heavy flamer and a +1S 24" assault cannon. but we traded thaat off with our 3rd special weapon being gak (psilencer)

forgot to add the old argument of us not having the benafit of shooting anything more than 24" away with the exception of the dreadnough and there ARE other dreadnought builds that psyfle

Grey Templar wrote:If you can't figure out a way to kill very expensive T4 3+ save models they you probably should go play Warmachine.

OUCH!

Great feedback. WAAC is a pretty broad term. I use WAAC to describe all the guys I met last year that were playing SW that are now playing GK. The guys that want to win but won't put in the time. I myself am competitive player, but I refuse to rules lawyer at the table and in 16 years of tournement play have never had to call a judge to settle a dispute. I see WAAC guys as the guys that are looking for the short cut to the winners circle, unwilling to put in the time always chasing the latest and greatest but lacking experience to get it done. WAAC do not necessarily cheat but they can make the game unpleaseant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK

They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

Because we all know that straight point cost is the only valid comparison.

TedNugent wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

GK do NOT get FW for free. They pay 25% more per model, at least, for a model that dies as easily as any other marine. There is ONE SS in the entire army, thats it. DW do very, very well against GK

They do NOT get FW for free. They pay a whopping 5 points per model for FW, Stormbolters, Hammerhand, Warpquake, and Deep Strike. 5 points! That's outrageous!

In fact, consider this! My Grey Hunter only has to pay 15 points for an INCREDIBLE Power Sword, costing me 30 points total. But if I wanted an I6 Power Weapon on my Grey Knight, it would cost me 5 points, for an unbelievably, outrageously expensive total of 25 points!

Consider how much more the GKs are paying! They have to pay a whopping 5 points for a Daemon Hammer on a Purifier Squad! 5 points, that's so much! It only costs a cheap 30 points on my Vanilla Marines, and we all know that 5 > 30.

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

Grey Templar wrote:How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such? When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

Tch...That's true only because you're mostly fighting models with only one wound. Fine. But it's still an entire squad of power weapons! You know...that weapon that makes space marines die CC just like Kroot do? Let's not try to white-wash this - power weapons are the great equalizer in close combat - ESPECIALLY when you hit first. In fact, this seems to be why the original poster is complaining, "GK are OP!" because as a close combat oriented SW build, he is clearly relying on that 3+ armor save. Meanwhile, 5+ and 6+ armies aren't going to feel as threatened by GK in CC (e.g. Orks).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

Regarding Purifiers, they are anti-horde, anti-MEQ, get ridiculously cheap weapon upgrades, and can strike at I6 for a pittance. They're not "fine," they're outrageous in close combat. Slaanesh CSM can't even match the initiative of a Purifier with a 2 point upgrade, and they don't even have free Power Weapons.

Purchasing one Thunder Hammer at 30 points for any other MEQ squad would more and make up for the price gap between the two, but oh, GKs get a discount on Thunder Hammers too.

Grugknuckle wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How often does the Force Weapon actually get used as such? When you consider it, its pretty much useless against most enemies. Only the fact its a power weapon actually comes into play.

Tch...That's true only because you're mostly fighting models with only one wound. Fine. But it's still an entire squad of power weapons! You know...that weapon that makes space marines die CC just like Kroot do? Let's not try to white-wash this - power weapons are the great equalizer in close combat - ESPECIALLY when you hit first. In fact, this seems to be why the original poster is complaining, "GK are OP!" because as a close combat oriented SW build, he is clearly relying on that 3+ armor save. Meanwhile, 5+ and 6+ armies aren't going to feel as threatened by GK in CC (e.g. Orks).

yeah, once my guardsman are in cc, i basically count them as dead and any wounds they inflict are just bonuses unless the unit is a powerblob in which case i hope that they win, but i dont use powerblobs all that often unless it is a 3000+ point game.

Not to mention, Power Weapons go straight through FNP, which makes it meaningless for CC MEQ army builds. Aside from weathering the shooting storm from the Purifiers, I mean.

bobamus87 wrote:[My biggest complaint was nothing more than, their average marine is 20pts per man ... 5 points more than a Grey hunter. It's that they are good at pretty much everything, and their only downside, isn't even that bad, in that they are slightly higher pts cost.

Holy crap dude. Have you looked at your own codex? I'm a space wolf player so I know. Grey Hunters are good at everything and they're dirt cheap at 15 points per model!

Lot's of people will say that SW are cheesy and OP. I wouldn't even necessarily disagree with them when it comes to Jaws, the price of long fangs or some of the special characters. But I will say this; I've been playing SW since the 90's and I tell you, there was a time when the space wolves were seriously out classed by almost everyone. Back then, Grey hunters were 23 points per model and your 35 point Rhino came without searchlight or smoke launcher!

When the Tau were brand new, they were considered cheesy and OP. How many people would say they are now?

Codecies come and go. Cheese comes and goes. You have to roll with the punches, know your army, know your opponent's army and play accordingly.

Grey Templar wrote:How are you losing an entire DW squad to 4 Str8 AP4 shots a turn?

Im back lol

I said "these things" meaning multiple there of and went on to say "that much shooting should" also meaning more than one lol, but its my fault for not being clear.

Nos: SW pay for the option of having alot of options, i think paying for options is silly though.

The marine TLAC dread is fairly priced for str7 shots for an extra 10pts the GK one ignores stuned/shaken results and another 5pts get str8 TLAC, its easy to get a dead a cover save adding to how tough they are. and that extra pip of str insta kills my IC

True cyclones are cheap for DW, add the price of the unit into the fold and ... 235pts to counter a 140pt model.. even i know thats bad maths.

Belial: hahahah combat master.. heheheh, i admit im lucky with good old Boblial he seems to be able to pull off crazy things his statline says he shouldnt, now if i could have a whole army of this undercosted "combat master" for that cost... well that would be broken. He is only undercosted due to the age of the book though when SS didnt give the 3++, for his stats and ability 150pts is more fair.

As to TH/SS spam doing well vs GK, im sure it does, but not all of us spam TH/SS tourney lists.

But this is DW, imagine how RW feel vs the grey knights...

And just another thought, GK Vendreads have the added advantage of having 2 of their damage results negated on a 5/6. Add a reroll to that and you essentially cannot reasonably kill them.

tgf wrote:i think of GK as the remedial kids army, its what people play that aren't good enough to win with a less forgiving army. Where your decisions are pretty cut and dry and you don't need to look for combo's or tactics. You just follow the formula and you will do well.

Exactly!

The Grey Knights are a starter army - low model count means smaller $ investment which means easier to enter the game. High cheese count means I get to win even when I don't know how to play, which means I keep playing and maybe even ... (*gasp) ... BUY MORE MODELS! Judging by how may GK lists were at Adepticon, it looks like GK is doing exactly what GW intended them to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reivax26 wrote:
The OP's train of thought was that they are the easiest army in 40k to win with because they have no weaknesses at all other than they die just as easily as Space Marines of other varities.

OMFG! Dying "just as easy as a Space Marine" is a weakness!

know how to kill them... first and foremost they only have a general 24" range. only dreads, and landraiders have better (or stormravens i suppose) so utilize that. any other marine army will have acsess to tons of missiles, lascannons, heavy bolters, plus your own dreads.

focus on: any psyflemen dreads in the game, the normal version first, as they are easier to kill, and once dead reduce his overall damage output. take out venerables next. tac squads with lazcannons work good for this, even devs or longfangs with missiles. then focus on transports. obviously stormravens are a priority, followed by razorbacks then rhinos. once those are dead, he is limited to walking, (or DS), and 24" shooting range. peg off infantry with heavy bolter, missile, lazcannon etc. for target priority on foot troops, i woud suggest termies first, followed by purifiers, then strike squads. i dont think many take interceptors, but if they are on field, they take priority, simply because they are fast.

dont charge him unless you have a massive edge in numbers or attacks, or init (7+) preferablly all 3. just sit back, shoot down his long range support first, then make him walk through your wall of fire. eventually you should be able to just bolter the crap out of his guys. and since your marines are cheaper then his, you can in theory have twice the boots on the ground. a tac squad with laz/plas combat squaded with a razorback using a twl lazcannon x 6 makes a VERY hard core for GK to counter. pack in some preds, devs or whatever else with lazcannons, or even missiles if you are low on points. take the cheapest hq you possibly can, like a naked captain. he wont do anything anyway, so keep him cheap and disposable and hiding in the backfield. a master of the forge works REALLY well. give him a beamer and bolster a ruin.

ive used that general list against all versions of GK i know of, the early "shunt putnt" style, purifers, termies, palladins, etc. its not lost yet.

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ. Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

The opportunity cost comes into play because you're paying for Power Weapons on a squad that isn't good in CC to start with. This lets other MEQ Codices outnumber the Grey Knights, and the Grey Knights do die just as easily as other Space Marines. They're essentially the "glass cannon" of Space Marines (although obviously not as fragile as for example Dark Eldar), putting loads of power (and therefore points) into being killy. It's essentially the same thing as High Elves do in WHFB; kill the enemy before they kill you, because you're going to feel every loss.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ.
Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

........huh?

No really. Huh?

....

..

huh?

You're assuming Strike Squads cost 40 points per model, I'm guessing?

Erm...Trolololol lololol, I saw the title to this thread and facepalmed

that is all

HAIL TO THE ALMIGHTY NURGLE!!!!!

tgf wrote:Great feedback. WAAC is a pretty broad term. I use WAAC to describe all the guys I met last year that were playing SW that are now playing GK. The guys that want to win but won't put in the time. I myself am competitive player, but I refuse to rules lawyer at the table and in 16 years of tournement play have never had to call a judge to settle a dispute. I see WAAC guys as the guys that are looking for the short cut to the winners circle, unwilling to put in the time always chasing the latest and greatest but lacking experience to get it done. WAAC do not necessarily cheat but they can make the game unpleaseant.

Ah, if thats how you are using it then theres no issue, I just dislike the term as it is often used, a slur on someone more competitive.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ. Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

I decided to check your math (nothing personal, I always double check math), and for one thing, you've somehow managed to sneak in twice as many points for the black templar, said squad also impossible and would be unable to kill 4 MEQ. 12 initiates would only be able to kill an average of 3 MEQ on the charge, 10 initiates and 4 Neopytes with CCW and bolt pistol which is legal would kill 3.1 MEQs. They would also lack bolters or frag grenades

You also forgot Hammerhand, boosting the SS kills to 3.3~, where as the 6 initiates only take out 1.5. And this is ignoring the SS storm bolters or the initiate's bolt pistols, which is an obvious conclusion.

The ork comparison just doesn't work, because the GK don't need to get into assault with them because having an 24" assault 2 weapon mean you can just kite the mob

I think I see why GK don't give me as much trouble - all the other marines seem to be enraged about the vast amounts power weapons, which are nothing but a minor nuisance to me

Luke_Prowler wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:]

Oh look, I've never seen THAT argument before. Grey Knights don't get the option of NOT having to pay. While it may appear to be a no-brainer, those Power Weapons aren't going to do much on your average Strike Squad, because they suck at CC anyway, just not as badly as Tactical Squads. On the more elite models such as Purifiers they're fine, as each individual model is monstrously expensive.

So? You'd have to buy 3 Strike Squads before you matched the cost everyone else pays for a Power Sword, and you have an Assault 2 Boltgun. Oh, and you also get discounts on heavy weapons and Thunder Hammers.

And you have an interesting idea of "suck," considering that even a 5 man Strike Squad has 5 Power Weapon attacks and 10 on the charge. How many times would you have to pay 15 points to match that on any other MEQ? Oh, and they also have Hammerhand, for free, and Assault 2 Boltguns, so unlike every other MEQ they can safely shoot and charge, getting their assault bonus.

10 attacks on the charge, 5 hits, 2,5 dead MEQ. Not exactly stellar. You don't need Power Weapons to do better than that. For example, their equivalent points in Black Templars Marines, 12 marines, will kill an average of 4 MEQ on the charge AND have added durability due to being more numerous, without any power weapons at all. Their equivalent points in Orks, 33, will, assuming Shoota Boyz, put down 5 MEQ on the charge, and that's not counting shooting or the inevitable Power Klaw.

I decided to check your math (nothing personal, I always double check math), and for one thing, you've somehow managed to sneak in twice as many points for the black templar, said squad also impossible and would be unable to kill 4 MEQ. 12 initiates would only be able to kill an average of 3 MEQ on the charge, 10 initiates and 4 Neopytes with CCW and bolt pistol which is legal would kill 3.1 MEQs. They would also lack bolters or frag grenades

You also forgot Hammerhand, boosting the SS kills to 3.3~, where as the 6 initiates only take out 1.5. And this is ignoring the SS storm bolters or the initiate's bolt pistols, which is an obvious conclusion.

The ork comparison just doesn't work, because the GK don't need to get into assault with them because having an 24" assault 2 weapon mean you can just kite the mob

Oh Derp, I assumed the previous math about the attacks were for a full 10 of Strike Squads, not 5. Ignore what I said, Grey Knight Strike Squads kill around 6 MEQ on the charge if there's 10 of them. The question is, though, who runs a squad without special weapons? Those remove PW attacks.

And of course the Ork comparison works, we're talking about how effective the units are in CC. I also just now realized I failed on the Ork maths, they put down 8 MEQ on the charge without a Nob with PC.

The point isn't that a 12-man Black Templars squad without neophytes is illegal, the point is that the Black Templars get more bodies over the Grey Knights. Those 40 points per strike squad (without upgrades!) add up. A Land Speeder Typhoon, for example, is only 70 points. The same is true for other armies as well. Let's compare a 10-man Strike Squad charging a 10-man Grey Hunter squad, for example:

(Assume that Hammerhand works all the time, for a worst-case scenario)

21 PW attacks from the GKs, 10.5 hits, 7.75 wounds, 7.5 rounded to 8 dead Grey Hunters. 10 Grey Hunters still get to swing back, 30 attacks with counter-attack, 15 hits, 7,5 wounds. That's 2.5 wounds, so it could swing either way, assume 2 for worst-case scenario. The Grey Knights have just wiped out 8 Grey Hunters and taken 2 losses themselves. Quite good, but for a 200-point unit on the charge against a 150-point unit that damn well better be the case. Let's examine the reverse situation, where the Grey Knights get charged:

30 attacks from the GHs, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 3 GKs die. GKs swing, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 3.666 rounded to 4 dead. Will the Grey Hunters lose in the end? Yes, but they damn well should, seeing as they're 50 points cheaper.

Now, let's compare the Grey Knights against a horde of 30 Shoota Boyz with a PK Nob, assuming the Grey Knights get the charge:

21 PW attacks, 10.5 hits, 7.75 wounds rounded to 8 dead Boyz. Nob takes a wound so only 7 die. 22 Boyz attack, 44 attacks, 22 hits, 7.3 wounds, 2 dead Grey Knights. PK swings, 3 attacks, 1.5 wounds, 2 dead Knights. Orks kill 4, Grey Knights do 8 wounds, Orks lose a further 4 Boyz to fearless.

Round 2: Grey Knights attack, 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 2.333 rounded to 2 kills. Orks swing back, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 5 wounds, 2 dead Knights. PK kills one. Orks win combat and will eventually win by wipeout unless the Grey Knights manage to run away.

In conclusion, and I believe this is the real crux: Grey Knights do well against armies that rely on strong armour saves to keep them safe in close combat (read: Space Marines). Since Space Marines are the most widely played Codices, people are upset that their armies are being countered by Grey Knights and that they can't just charge into combat with them and smash them to a pulp (which they still can if they bring equivalent amounts of Marines points-wise, assuming no Psychotroke Grenades). I say this as a Black Templars player, who would like nothing better than charging into close combat and smashing things to a pulp.

TL;DR: Grey Knights counter Space Marines the hardest, Space Marine players don't like this.

TBH the thing I find most ridiculous about GK is that they are better at fighting psykers than Daemons. All their special gear (psych out grenades, the silly stormraven missiles, and so on) only give them an edge against psykers, and the daemon codex has no psychic powers. It's just ironic.
not to say that they're not good against daemons, just that they're even better against psykers.
God, I need to sober up.

yep GK are op but not as bad as SW