Today I had a really fun game against Gymnogyps. However, we have tons of rules questions that came up. So, I thought I'd make a thread dedicated to posting and getting those answered, so that ourselves and other DCMs can get sorted and learn how to play, and then hopefully get others interested once we know what the heck we're doing . I know Gymnogyps and her husband were even able to give a friend of theirs a demo game after I left, and I'd like to have my wife do one, but not until I've sorted out how to play

So, I'd like to keep this thread to rules/gameplay discussion only, since there are lots of threads discussing the models already (and Gymnogyps' excellent plog here showing some painted really well). To the rules questions, mine are mostly Vandalands-specific. Hopefully Cyporiean can address each of these and people can use this as a place to "learn how to play" on an ongoing basis, as different situations come up... basically, to ask the creator .

All questions are in Orange, and it should probably remain that way throughout the thread, so that it's very clear what needs to be answered.

See the two pictures below. The lancers declare a charge on the shrew hussars. The shrew hussars, according to their special rule, can both stand-and-shoot and flee. We played it that they did stand-and-shoot before the lancers moved, and thus were out of range to shoot. Was this correct?




Hedge Knight questions:

The Hedge Knight has a heroic action that allows him to make a unit activate and then charge / etc. Can this only be used on a unit that has not yet activated? If it is used on hamsters who suffer from Northern Berserkers, does it have any effect, or does Northern Berserkers take precedence? For example, this ability could allow a unit to rush and then charge, but hamsters cannot rush, right?

The Hedge Knight can take shrew hussars in a spearhead formation, but this formation is not listed on the formations page. What does it do?

Does a level 4 Hedge Knight have an ARMOR of 7 (5 from heavy armor, 2 from shield/barding)? Can he attack with the poleaxe and shield at the same time? Does it seem that higher level heroes do better, as the opposing two level 2 heroes seemed to stand no change against armor 7, and only a large unit would be able to get through all of that armor?

General questions:

When applying wounds to a unit from shooting attacks, do wounds have to be given to "whole models first", rather than distributing 1 wound to each model? Do wasted wounds not carry over to another model?

Does the army that wins the roll-off at the start of the game, deploy ALL their models first, and then the other army deploys? Or do the two sides alternate deploying single models, or units, etc?

A few more pictures:




Do Shrew Hussar's "move-shoot-move" allow them to make an ADDITIONAL full 8 inch move after shooting, or simply to interrupt their normal movement to shoot, and then finish moving? We played that this was an additional full move, which makes their total movement 16 inches, so I now think this was incorrect (and it was bothering me at the time, I kept mentioning it felt like cheating).

Thanks for answering these questions, Cyp. Perhaps there's already a FAQ that addresses some of them. I also think that Gymnogyps will have a lot of questions, and less-Vandalands-centric. I'm sure we'll have more after we play again, too, and once I remember some of the ones I've forgotten!

Brushfire Errata is Here.

See the two pictures below. The lancers declare a charge on the shrew hussars. The shrew hussars, according to their special rule, can both stand-and-shoot and flee. We played it that they did stand-and-shoot before the lancers moved, and thus were out of range. Was this correct?

Yes/No.

Hussar Pistols have a range of 15", if a model charges from out side of that range (IE has a charge value higher then 15".. which is pretty much only the Lancers) then the Hussars are out of range for their pistols and cannot fire.

If the charger is within the Hussar's fire range, then the Hussars may fire and then flee before the Charger moves.

The Hedge Knight has a heroic action that allows him to make a unit activate and then charge / etc. Can this only be used on a unit that has not yet activated? If it is used on hamsters who suffer from Northern Berserkers, does it have any effect, or does Northern Berserkers take precedence? For example, this ability could allow a unit to rush and then charge, but hamsters cannot rush, right?

It can be used on any friendly unit.

Northern Berserkers always applies when Hamster Berserkers activate within 5" of another Hamster Berserk UNLESS they are in a squad with Arctos Nevsky.

The Hedge Knight can take shrew hussars in a spearhead formation, but this formation is not listed on the formations page. What does it do?

Errata'ed. They just join him in a squad and gain the bonuses of both Heavy and Light cavalry.

Does a level 4 Hedge Knight have an ARMOR of 7 (5 from heavy army, 2 from shield/barding)? Can he attack with the poleaxe and shield at the same time? Does it seem that higher level heroes do better, as the opposing two level 2 heroes seemed to stand no change against armor 7, and only a large unit would be able to get through all of that armor?

Yes, 7 AR total. IIRC the highest armor amount in the game.
Hedge Knights do not get Shields (Heater/Targe), they do have Barding.

When applying wounds to a unit from shooting attacks, do wounds have to be given to "whole models first", rather than distributing 1 wound to each model? Do wasted wounds not carry over to another model?

If there a wounded model in the squad, it takes additional wounds first. If there is more then one wounded model in a squad (Such as from merging squads), the most wounded one gets additional wounds first.

A Bullet cannot split apart mid air to hit a second target*, so additional DE will not transfer over to an additional model. Only whole attacks transfer over.

*Okay, technically yes, this can happen in the real world in freak circumstances. But not in Brushfire's ruleset.

Does the army that wins the roll-off at the start of the game, deploy ALL their models first, and then the other army deploys? Or do the two sides alternate deploying single models, or units, etc?

Both sides deploy at the same time. If your opponent is going slowly about it you can give them a 1 minute countdown to finish... generally just don't be a dick.

Do Shrew Hussar's "move-shoot-move" allow them to make an ADDITIONAL 8 inch move after shooting, or simply to interrupt their normal movement to shoot, and then finish moving? We played that this was an additional full move, which makes their total movement 16 inches, so I now think this was incorrect (and it was bothering me at the time, I kept mentioning it felt like cheating).

You don't get an additional move, you just get to take a shot during your movement. Since you can still shoot after rushing you could move 8", Shoot, and then move back 8".

Just wanted to add my own clarifications/comments on these questions

See the two pictures below. The lancers declare a charge on the shrew hussars. The shrew hussars, according to their special rule, can both stand-and-shoot and flee. We played it that they did stand-and-shoot before the lancers moved, and thus were out of range to shoot. Was this correct?

This is one of the benefits of the Lancers with their special charge ability, they can charge 25" from out of range of most ranged weapons, except for rifles.

The Hedge Knight has a heroic action that allows him to make a unit activate and then charge / etc. Can this only be used on a unit that has not yet activated? If it is used on hamsters who suffer from Northern Berserkers, does it have any effect, or does Northern Berserkers take precedence? For example, this ability could allow a unit to rush and then charge, but hamsters cannot rush, right?

You're talking about Bubonic Honor here and it specifically says that the model only charges at Rank 1. This is a different phase from movement which is the phase that Northern Berserkers overrules. If using a higher Rank the wording of the ability says the Hamsters may move/rush, rather than simply charge and then melee. Northern Berserkers would be rolled again if you chose to 'move' them with this ability it is optional. As Em said though, any hamsters in a squad with Arctos Nevsky ignore the NB rule and may move normally.

Does a level 4 Hedge Knight have an ARMOR of 7 (5 from heavy armor, 2 from shield/barding)? Can he attack with the poleaxe and shield at the same time? Does it seem that higher level heroes do better, as the opposing two level 2 heroes seemed to stand no change against armor 7, and only a large unit would be able to get through all of that armor?

While Armor 7 is definately high, the Hedge Knight becomes a prime target as well. Remember also that rolls of 10 on the die for attacking are critical hits and just flat out ignore his armor, and 9s always do 1 point of damage through armor if the attacks do not actually exceed the AR of the target. A basic strategy is to take really cheap units as a "crit farm" just rolling as many dice as possible, hoping for critical hits against these heavier targets. For Vandals, Rat Raiders are a particularly good choice, with their ability to get lucky hits on 8s, all of their pikes are dealing at least a point of damage on 8s 9s or 10s before you even roll their shield attacks. You'll find one of these units in every faction, 'death by a thousand cuts'.

When applying wounds to a unit from shooting attacks, do wounds have to be given to "whole models first", rather than distributing 1 wound to each model? Do wasted wounds not carry over to another model?

Just as a note, while attacks apply to damaged models first in ranged combat. In melee they apply to whichever model the attacker chooses (and the attacker is in base to base with)

Do Shrew Hussar's "move-shoot-move" allow them to make an ADDITIONAL full 8 inch move after shooting, or simply to interrupt their normal movement to shoot, and then finish moving? We played that this was an additional full move, which makes their total movement 16 inches, so I now think this was incorrect (and it was bothering me at the time, I kept mentioning it felt like cheating).

This is a great ability for the Hussars, as Light Cavalry, they retain their GE value when rushing, so you can utilize their 16" of Rush Speed, to as em put it, move 8 shoot, and move 8 back. This gets them into range to take shots and get back into cover or out of range, with little worry that their penalized WS or MT will come into play during such an maneuver.

Thanks for the questions, we always love to hear feedback. Even with the questions did you enjoy playing? any other comments you'd like to share?

RiTides thanks for posting this, and for the fun game yesterday! Next time I'll have to bring an actual list.

After RiTides left, I played another warband game with a friend. He ordered the rulebook!

Emily and Matt, thanks so much for responding. I'll have to remember what questions I have. Q1: Where is my coffee?

I also apologize if this info is already available and I've just missed it.

One of the challenges I personally am experiencing is with building lists and Heroes. I understand the principles, I think, but what would be "normal", or relatively balanced, amounts of each? I think it would be helpful to have some example rosters / builds available at a few levels, pretty much the same as the warbands, but the next step or two after. Or perhaps an article on list-building philosophies and guidelines, expanding on the how-to in the rulebook, with some examples.

Once we have played more, I'll be fine going crazy and building whatever. But I think I need a little more hand-holding.

Oooh, question!

For models that are mounted, are wounds at any point allocated to the mount separately? In other words, is there any point where a rider could be mountless?

I know I have more questions too, but need to remember...

Edit - for clarity

One of the challenges I personally am experiencing is with building lists and Heroes. I understand the principles, I think, but what would be "normal", or relatively balanced, amounts of each? I think it would be helpful to have some example rosters / builds available at a few levels, pretty much the same as the warbands, but the next step or two after. Or perhaps an article on list-building philosophies and guidelines, expanding on the how-to in the rulebook, with some examples.

I did a number of "Tactical Reviews" for each faction, sort of giving my opinions on how each special ability and unit should be utilized. They were on the website, but the links seem to have been jumbled as we changed the website around so I'll link to the google docs of them, they might be slightly rougher here, but hopefully will be useful. I'll see about writing up some example armies at 100 and 200 resources to help you out.

Ribenguo TR: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11-SSNLzJ2aEX7d8eJkdwryxjNwHGmJ9_nZ-HUkHWyS4/edit
Aquitar TR: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eb3JecXNtlk6TOXwqG7sQ98ICCk9DAiUewvlKC0ohqA/edit
Zabar TR: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yDr1oB7GDGPVd24NMwVAfB_5Pi25XUFl5JQ7_eZA3VA/edit
Vandalands TR: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CvYSEzcGgbDiVa6qs2HKG5BZpk8TUxJDF193_NBcyEE/edit
Axony TR: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OO9KBGxsmq1BM_ov_Q2dUd8tBpsiRci_2jIVsA1qAb0/edit
Civitas TR: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DHqjGd2LXQ6IpIr2E7D9yRmcVaI5HygkG9FQBN9MT8M/edit

For models that are mounted, are wounds at any point allocated to the mount separately? In other words, is there any point where a rider could be mountless?

Mounts are not considered separate from their rider. They take wounds as a single model. The only point where a 'rider' could be mountless (other than models that count as cavalry but do not ride anything, such as Devon Brigadiers or Mongoose Legionnaires) are Valkyr Pilots that successfully eject after the Valkyr is killed.

Two exceptions to the mounted rules, (Cyp pointed this out to me) The Hedge Knight has a boon which allows him to survive reaching 0 VY, by losing his mount and barding, and regaining 3 VY (but reducing his speed to 5 instead of the Kiwi's 8 and losing 2 AR)

The Monitor hero for Scyzantium also GAINS a mount at hLVL4, gaining 4 VY and an attack, but having a reduced WS. the Mount is lost after the Monitor takes 5 damage.

Thanks very much for the answers! We did have a fantastic time, I just wanted to ask all the questions (and make a place to do so) since we're planning to play more, and so that I can be clear on things for when my wife joins us

I didn't quite understand the answer about the Hedge Knight's Bubonic Honor, though (that's the only one). So just to rephrase:

If a Hedge Knight successfully uses a Rank 3 Bubonic Honor on a unit of hamsters, can they then rush 10 inches and charge an additional 3 inches towards a model/unit, and NOT roll on the Northern Berserkers table?

Also, can they multi-charge several models/units? I ask because a unit of 10-15 hamsters could easily charge a few targets at once, and it would be a shame if they all had to gather round the same model if the other army wasn't using units.

Relatedly, can large units multi-charge other models / units normally? I've already assumed that they cannot split their fire and must target only a single model/unit in shooting, but maybe that's wrong.

Also thanks for the link to the errata . I just read through it.

If a Hedge Knight successfully uses a Rank 3 Bubonic Honor on a unit of hamsters, can they then rush 10 inches and charge an additional 3 inches towards a model/unit, and NOT roll on the Northern Berserkers table?

A Squad of Hamsters may only rush if they are in a squad with Arctos Nevsky as he ignores the NB rule. Your other options are: 1) Do not 'move' and only charge. 2) Roll on the table and then charge.

Also, can they multi-charge several models/units? I ask because a unit of 10-15 hamsters could easily charge a few targets at once, and it would be a shame if they all had to gather round the same model if the other army wasn't using units.

Relatedly, can large units multi-charge other models / units normally? I've already assumed that they cannot split their fire and must target only a single model/unit in shooting, but maybe that's wrong.

A squad may break its charge up amongst multiple squads as long as they remain within 3" cohesion. Also note that if you charge more than one squad, both squads may make charge reactions which is perhaps not the best option.

Ranged attacks must be against a single model/squad.

Also note that activating model individually may seem like a good defensive option for range attacks, but by activating individually you are not able to combine fire with these models, making it much more difficult to exceed the armor value of high priority targets.

miskatonicalum wrote:Two exceptions to the mounted rules, (Cyp pointed this out to me) The Hedge Knight has a boon which allows him to survive reaching 0 VY, by losing his mount and barding, and regaining 3 VY (but reducing his speed to 5 instead of the Kiwi's 8 and losing 2 AR)

THAT is what I was thinking of! Thx

Those tactica are going to be very, very helpful. Well done, and thanks for sharing the info!

Edit - BTW, not only did we enjoy playing, several people in the store were very curious, and dropped by the table. A very good sign!

miskatonicalum wrote:Also note that activating model individually may seem like a good defensive option for range attacks, but by activating individually you are not able to combine fire with these models, making it much more difficult to exceed the armor value of high priority targets.

Interesting! That brings up another interesting question... Is it possible to activate models as a unit one turn, and then individually the next? If so, I guess any unit firing at a group of models would do so based on how they had activated the previous turn- i.e., hitting all of them if they had activated as a unit the prior turn, but only hitting a single model if they had activated individually the prior turn?

I personally activated everything as units, as it's just much easier for me to think of that way... and plus, hamsters wreck face (and the shrew hussars needed to combine fire to do any real damage on a target, anyway)

RiTides wrote:Is it possible to activate models as a unit one turn, and then individually the next? If so, I guess any unit firing at a group of models would do so based on how they had activated the previous turn- i.e., hitting all of them if they had activated as a unit the prior turn, but only hitting a single model if they had activated individually the prior turn?

This is the exact idea of the "Squad Phase" during an activation. You select which models you are going to activate during the Squad Phase, and these models remain a squad until you activate them differently on a subsequent turn. The point of the system is to allow you to split your attacks. But remember that you only activate one squad at a time. If you activate 10 hamsters as a squad on turn 1. Then on turn 2 you activate 6 of them to go off in a different direction, you would then pass play over to the other player before getting to activate the remaining 4 hamsters (or passing them until later in the Turn)

Got it!

Also, did you write the rules, Matt? I am going to edit you into the title since you are doing such a good job answering

My name's in the book so I must have wrote it! 3 of us worked on it, but I was the lead. Cyp does all the businessy stuff.

Yeah, Matt did the brunt of the writing work.

I'm mostly responsible for the Lancers/Juan, Valkyr/Gotz, and the initial plannings for Zabar.

I wrote up some example army lists just to give you an idea. We usually play at 100 Resources or 200 Resources, the Hero levels vary more than the resources, but I find 3/5/10 to be the most interesting to play at.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UxhL0gTvaLwFbAB_kWIhmOte3Roi8dAmWqMvzEbTTy8/edit

If that wasn't what you were looking for let me know so I can either explain more or correct it.

Very cool! We did a 50 resource match, but I do want to try 100 soon. And I think I actually have your signature in my book, then, just hadn't interacted with you on here!

Will get another game in against Gymnogyps soon, and report back with more questions on rules / comments on lists, etc.

Wow, Matt, thank you SO much! Those example lists are great. Add in the ballpark guideline of 100 or 200 resources and 3/5/10 hero levels, and the tactical reviews, and this is exactly what I was hoping for!

Glad that they helped, please let us know if you have any other questions.

Hey again! So, yesterday, counting the excellent game with RiTides, I played 4 games total and coached 3 more. I had a couple of questions we just couldn't figure out...

I'm going to apologize now because these seem really obvious, but I just can't seem to locate the answer. Also, I may be making assumptions based on other games that I may or may not have played in the past...

When a model ambushes, what happens if the deviation would cause the model end up off the table? What if the model lands somewhere they can't be, such as another model, etc?

Charge is a different phase from movement... so is charge distance affected by terrain, such as forest, like Movement? Or is charge separate and not impacted by restrictions that affect movement?

Gymnogyps wrote: When a model ambushes, what happens if the deviation would cause the model end up off the table? What if the model lands somewhere they can't be, such as another model, etc?

Should it end up off the table, the model comes in from that table edge the next turn automatically.

Gymnogyps wrote: Charge is a different phase from movement... so is charge distance affected by terrain, such as forest, like Movement? Or is charge separate and not impacted by restrictions that affect movement?

All forms of movement are effected by terrain that slows movement (Should as the slowing effect from Forest or Water) unless the model has some method to avoid that effect. (Such as Otters/Capybara and the Aquatic rule)

To answer the second part of your ambush question, you would stop the model short, and they would count as charging the model they 'landed' on. If they would still be on top of a model, keep moving them back towards the selected ambush point until they have free space.

Okay, here are the questions I wrote down during our game, which we're going to try to keep doing until we have things down perfectly

When making the KE roll to come in via ambush, what happens in the event of a tie? We decided to reroll it.

We had a lot of unit/squad questions. Models can be activated as a unit if they start within 3" of one another. When shooting at models, can a person only shoot models that are within 3" of each other, or any models that activated together? For example, first turn I activated all my hamsters together, but when they moved they were more than 3" apart due to Northern Berserkers. See pre-movement picture below.



Also when resolving shooting, the defending player gets to choose where to put the wounds, as long as the model is in the same unit and in range, correct? Or do you apply the wounds to the closest model possible?

This came up a number of times because the hamsters with Northern Berserks kept getting further apart from one another. Turn 1, I activated them all as a unit, but later there were at least 4 separate groups.

Is it ever possible to shoot separate enemy models, that are not in a unit together, with a single unit of your own?

Pic to illustrate the next question:



Do you have to maximize base contact with as many enemy models in a unit as possible when charging? For example, do the two foxes charging from behind the kiwis in this pic have to touch 4 kiwis? Was it legal for the hedgeknight on the end NOT to activate with the kiwis to perform a stand-and-shoot, and save his activation for later? Do the kiwis lose their activation this turn by standing and shooting?

Finally, another pic to illustrate our squad confusion:



The two models on the ends with bows had already activated to shoot their bows (they are within 3" of one another) and the center two had not yet activated. My hamster charged the model on the end, which had no choice but to hold, ignoring the two center models. Was this legal?

If so (or even if not) when does one determine what models are a squad/unit? Can you activate a squad/unit and them move out of squad/unit formation (such as charging different targets) as hamsters seem to be forced to do with Northern Berserkers (i.e. can you do this voluntarily)?

This gets especially confusing with the previous pic of the line of kiwis with the hedge knight on the end. We just weren't sure when it was determined what was a squad (start of round, or when they activate?).

Thanks for helping us and sorry if any of this is already very obvious it's only my second real game of this! Lots of fun, hoping to get in a 150 resource battle next time (this was still 50 resource).

I'll leave you with this:



Clearly, there will be a market for Vitality counters, and of course the ones you already thought of with activated/ran tokens, if you end up wanting to make some

RiTides wrote:When making the KE roll to come in via ambush, what happens in the event of a tie? We decided to reroll it.

Defender (IE The one who wants the ambusher to NOT be on the table) wins on a tie.

RiTides wrote:We had a lot of unit/squad questions. Models can be activated as a unit if they start within 3" of one another. When shooting at models, can a person only shoot models that are within 3" of each other, or any models that activated together? See picture below.

Range attacks go against a Squad, if it activated as a Squad previous last turn (Or happens to be within 3" of a viable squad mate on Turn 1 without having activated) then attacks will hit that group of models. If two models happen to be near each other, but did not activate as a squad, the one your not targeting at cannot be hit (expect in like 3 rare circumstances, usually templates or Chipmunks)

RiTides wrote:Also when resolving shooting, the defending player gets to choose where to put the wounds, as long as the model is in the same unit and in range, correct? Or do you apply the wounds to the closest model possible?

Wounds go to the most injured model first, and then can be applied where-ever the defender wishes. A Model must be reduced to 0VY before attacks can roll over to another model in its squad (And then must apply to that model's armor).

RiTides wrote:This came up a number of times because the hamsters with Northern Berserks kept getting further apart from one another. Turn 1, I activated them all as a unit, but later there were at least 4 separate groups.

Hamsters aren't the greatest of listeners, unless they are following a living god. Good thing though, once they are more then 5" away they aren't going to go Northern Berserker on you... but you do loose out on the Fear AOE.

RiTides wrote:Is it ever possible to shoot separate enemy models, that are not in a unit together, with a single unit of your own?

Pretty much just Template Attacks atm, and the second shot from a Bow can be against a separate target.

RiTides wrote:Do you have to maximize base contact with as many enemy models in a unit as possible when charging? For example, to the two foxes charging from behind the kiwis in this pic have to touch 4 kiwis? Was it legal for the hedgeknight on the end NOT to activate with the kiwis to perform a stand-and-shoot, and save his activation for later? Do the kiwis lose their activation this turn by standing and shooting?

You can charge whatever models you like. If you have more then one attack, you likely want to get into B2B with as many models as possible to maximize damage to a unit. If Gym put her Foxes in B2B with 2 Hussars, and killed one with a single attack, the second attack could roll over and hit the next Hussar. If a Model activates to make a Charge Reaction, that's their activation.

As long as the Hedge Knight was getting charged, he did not have to activate and make a charge reaction.

RiTides wrote:The two models on the ends with bows had already activated to shoot their bows (they are within 3" of one another) and the center two had not yet activated. My hamster charged the model on the end, which had no choice but to hold, ignoring the two center models. Was this legal?

If the center models were not being affected by the Hamster's Charge, then they could not make a charge reaction.

RiTides wrote:If so (or even if not) when does one determine what models are a squad/unit? Can you activate a squad/unit and them move out of squad/unit formation (such as charging different targets) as hamsters seem to be forced to do with Northern Berserkers (i.e. can you do this voluntarily)?

First phase of an activation is the Squad Phase, if you have a group of models that are within 3" of each other and are the same type and equipment (For units other then Hordes) then they may activate as a Squad (But do not have to). If this group of models activates as a Squad then they must stay within 3" of each other, and are considered a Squad until such a time as they are activated differently.

Hamsters (Without Arctos) that activate as a Squad suffer from Northern Berserker and may end up charging forward on their own.. or attacking a squad mate. They are a special case.

RiTides wrote:This gets especially confusing with the previous pic of the line of kiwis with the hedge knight on the end. We just weren't sure when it was determined what was a squad (start of round, or when they activate?).

A Squad is a Squad until you activate them differently at the beginning of an Activation.

Key thing to remember is that Hamster Berserkers are Special Snowflakes and will almost always do what you don't want them to do (Usually Kill/Fear your own units).

So if the hedge knight was a squad with the kiwis, they could stand and shoot while he saved his activation for later? Is this true of any model in a squad?

The attacks rolling over in combat are only to models in melee range, right? And partial attacks don't carry over- if a model dies from an attack, that's it for that attack.

Squads being what they were the previous activation until something else happens makes sense.

I forgot all about fear, again! It affects friendly units, too?

RiTides wrote:So if the hedge knight was a squad with the kiwis, they could stand and shoot while he saved his activation for later? Is this true of any model in a squad?

If you have 5 models in a squad that have not activated, and only 2 of them are being charged, then you can choose to activate all 5 and make a charge reaction with all of them, or you can choose to leave the 3 that are not going to be in combat to activate later (and possibly charge the attackers next activation!)

RiTides wrote:The attacks rolling over in combat are only to models in melee range, right? And partial attacks don't carry over- if a model dies from an attack, that's it for that attack.

Additional Whole attacks will roll over to other squad members in both Range and Melee, but in Melee it can only be a model that is Base to Base with you. And Yes, only a Whole Attack regardless if you used a Greatsword (4 DE) to Kill an Otter Ashigaru (1 VY)

RiTides wrote:I forgot all about fear, again! It affects friendly units, too?

Unless it says otherwise, it effects anything on the table for its range.

Even models being charged can just choose to hold, though, and activate later, if I'm reading this right. The question is, if both a kiwi and the hedge knight are being contacted by the charge, and they activated as a squad last turn, can the kiwi stand and shoot while the hedge knight holds (and thus activates later)? Seems unfair since then some kiwis being contacted could flee while one holds, etc......... so I am guessing the answer is models in a squad who are contacted must declare the same reaction?

Would be a bummer for mixed squads with bows/pikes, though, like my second to last pic above, if only one reaction could be used by the squad (would make sense to always activate pikes separately, then).

All members of a squad that are going to charge react, have to make the same charge reaction, and you do not have to make a charge reaction.

And normally you would Have to activate your pike guys seperate from your other dudes, as Same Equipment is one of the caveats of Squad Activation. Otter Ashigaru (and Mouse Conscripts) get around this by being a Horde Unit Type.

Hold and Attack back has been reworded for Printing 3 as "Counterattack" now when you 'hold' you are not making a charge reaction and thus not activating (Can activate later).

On the squads in cohesion/not in cohesion this actually can come up more often than just with fear or Hamster rabbling (such as when a model gets killed causing the squad to be out of cohesion or charging into a wide spread enemy squad). If this happens, where a squad you previously activated is now out of cohesion, To activate them as a squad again, you reduce their total movement by 2" (not their speed, their total movement, a squad that is going to rush with a speed of 6 will move 10") And then move them the minimum distance to put them back into cohesion. If they are in melee, and you plan to skip the movement phase, you do not have to do the cohesion movement.

Yeah I saw that, and thus activated hamster groups separately to avoid a movement penalty... I am guessing they are immune to each other's fear but need to go check it, as I forgot to do it at all.

Thanks for all the clarifications guys!!

A Squad won't cause Fear to members of its own Squad.

But they will cause fear to a nearby squad of hamsters... crap! Time to break out Nevsky and run as a big squad...

Aren't squads that cause fear immune to fear?

Unless they are 'Elite' Unit type (Ex: Sand Guard), or have the 'Immune to Fear' USR (Ex: Chipmunk Weapon Teams) they are subject to Fear.

Thinking of big squad issues here: multi-charging several other squads is OK as long as 3" coherency is maintained, right?

Yes.

I'm going to request that this thread be moved to the Misc. Games section, just FYI!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Annnnnnnd now it's in the Misc. Games section

Ambushing/Flanking Order of Play clarification:

1) Roll for initiative
2) If the winner has anything to ambush/flank, they roll for their first model/squad
2a) If that model/squad succeeds, you then either Shoot OR Charge & Melee with it (Flankers get their full activation), ending it's activation.
3) Continue through each set of ambushers/flankers.
4) After all ambushing/flanking, make an actual activation from the rest of your army.
5) Hand play over to your opponent, who does the same stuff.

Hopefully that list will clear it up for you.

Cyporiean and misktonicalum, again, thank you so much for all your assistance! Tonight I played a warband match, me using Ribenguo vs. Zabar. I pulled this thread up to guide me through the ambush rules.

But as usual, we have a few questions... and again, I apologize if these are already answered and I just didn't see or find it!

The Hyenas have the Pestilence spell which states "infect a unit with poisonous spores..." We assumed this referred to the army specific trebuchet ammo. What parts of the wording apply when using poisonous spores as a spell as opposed to ammo? We assumed the tactical action roll replaced the deviation, but does the affected squad also leave a cloud behind when they die?

How can the Poisonous spores effect can be removed from a squad or model? We know about the Hyena, but is there any other way?

Warhog tusks only list damage in the description, no wield or handedness. Can the hogs use their javelins in combat as well as their tusks?

Axony question... The Heavy Brigadier has Claws at hLVL1 and Front Gauntlets at hLVL2. At hLVL2, what attacks and with what weapons does the Brigadier use? (It isn't clear if claws get replaced by the gauntlets)

Edit - forgot some stuff

Gymnogyps wrote: The Hyenas have the Pestilence spell which states "infect a unit with poisonous spores..." We assumed this referred to the army specific trebuchet ammo. What parts of the wording apply when using poisonous spores as a spell as opposed to ammo? We assumed the tactical action roll replaced the deviation, but does the affected squad also leave a cloud behind when they die?

Consider the target model to have suffered a direct hit of the spores, with all of its effects. They'll leave a spore cloud behind when they die.

Gymnogyps wrote: How can the Poisonous spores effect can be removed from a squad or model? We know about the Hyena, but is there any other way?

Only the Hyenas of Zabar know a method of curing the spores poison.

Gymnogyps wrote: Warhog tusks only list damage in the description, no wield or handedness. Can the hogs use their javelins in combat as well as their tusks?

Yes, Tusks + Javelin + Shield Bash

Gymnogyps wrote: Axony question... The Heavy Brigadier has Claws at hLVL1 and Front Gauntlets at hLVL2. At hLVL2, what attacks and with what weapons does the Brigadier use? (It isn't clear if claws get replaced by the gauntlets)

RAI, Gauntlets cover the Claws and take their place

RAI, Gauntlets cover the Claws and take their place

in other words, Two attacks at 2 DE, normal armor application, and 2 attacks at 1 DE that ignore armor. If you level higher and get Greaves, you do 4 Attacks at 2 DE, normal armor application.

(The upgraded attacks will be clarified in a later printing/errata update)

Wow, OK we will have to have a re-match and use the Warhogs correctly.

Thank you so much for answering these questions! I just have one more follow up...

Cyporiean wrote:

Gymnogyps wrote: Axony question... The Heavy Brigadier has Claws at hLVL1 and Front Gauntlets at hLVL2. At hLVL2, what attacks and with what weapons does the Brigadier use? (It isn't clear if claws get replaced by the gauntlets)

RAI, Gauntlets cover the Claws and take their place

OK, that makes sense, but I'm still not getting it completely... maybe I'm overthinking it (it happens occasionally).

Gauntlets are dual wield, 2 attacks, 2DE. Does he get 2 gauntlets, so 4 attacks at 2DE? Or just the 2 attacks at 2DE?

Gymnogyps wrote:Wow, OK we will have to have a re-match and use the Warhogs correctly.

Thank you so much for answering these questions! I just have one more follow up...

Cyporiean wrote:

Gymnogyps wrote: Axony question... The Heavy Brigadier has Claws at hLVL1 and Front Gauntlets at hLVL2. At hLVL2, what attacks and with what weapons does the Brigadier use? (It isn't clear if claws get replaced by the gauntlets)

RAI, Gauntlets cover the Claws and take their place

OK, that makes sense, but I'm still not getting it completely... maybe I'm overthinking it (it happens occasionally).

Gauntlets are dual wield, 2 attacks, 2DE. Does he get 2 gauntlets, so 4 attacks at 2DE? Or just the 2 attacks at 2DE?

The term Dual Wield is probably just confusing you, ignore it in this instance.

Front Gauntlets = 2 Attacks at 2 DE.

It should probably be Front Gauntlet x2, or even just Claw Gauntlet x2 (like the BAC)

miskatonicalum wrote:

RAI, Gauntlets cover the Claws and take their place

in other words, Two attacks at 2 DE, normal armor application, and 2 attacks at 1 DE that ignore armor. If you level higher and get Greaves, you do 4 Attacks at 2 DE, normal armor application.

(The upgraded attacks will be clarified in a later printing/errata update)

Cyporiean wrote:
Front Gauntlets = 2 Attacks at 2 DE.

It should probably be Front Gauntlet x2, or even just Claw Gauntlet x2 (like the BAC)

OK, thanks, both of ya's. I got it now.

The ambush/flank clarification is great, thanks!

Glad to help

Jason and I were sitting around last night after playing WEGS discussing the megabattle at Templecon. Specifically talking about the rules for trebuches.

The general consensice is that their far to inacuarate but thats not the point I'm going to make. Jason pointed out that it is possible for a Trebuche to fire something and have it drift back far enough to hit the Trebuche. Is there a rule we are missing or is this indeed possible?

Yes, all template weapons (that deviate) can possibly misfire so badly they wipe out the user.

This had hilarious results in Beta-Testing the Gopher Engineers... Originally they were Infantry (10 models squads) that ALWAYS threw a 5" template at whatever killed them... So it was very possible to chain explode a unit of them, and most of the countryside.

I actually like them

As to this thread, it is old and I learned soooooo much playing you guys in-person at TempleCon that are wrong in the early posts here. So I may start another soon.

That said, 2 questions:

1. Can a Lvl 5 hero take another level from the chart instead of a Boon with his 5th level? I reaaallllyyy want a hedge knight with 4 bodyguards (2 levels) and able to make a unit rush then charge (3 levels). Otherwise I'll only be able to take 2 bodyguards (1 level) and get a boon.
2. If a unit charges and kills some models, so they are not all in base contact, do they all count as in combat for shooting purposes? Do the unengaged models have the ability to charge into the combat they're already in, but not touching, next turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also is it written anywhere that artillery ignores body armor, but not shield armor, as stated at TempleCon?

 RiTides wrote:
1. Can a Lvl 5 hero take another level from the chart instead of a Boon with his 5th level? I reaaallllyyy want a hedge knight with 4 bodyguards (2 levels) and able to make a unit rush then charge (3 levels). Otherwise I'll only be able to take 2 bodyguards (1 level) and get a boon.

No, every 5th Hero Level spent on a single hero goes to a boon.

 RiTides wrote:
2. If a unit charges and kills some models, so they are not all in base contact, do they all count as in combat for shooting purposes? Do the unengaged models have the ability to charge into the combat they're already in, but not touching, next turn?

No, unengaged are not 'in melee'. They also don't have to be activated as part of a charge reaction if you like, and they can charge in.

 RiTides wrote:
I actually like them

As to this thread, it is old and I learned soooooo much playing you guys in-person at TempleCon that are wrong in the early posts here. So I may start another soon.

That said, 2 questions:

1. Can a Lvl 5 hero take another level from the chart instead of a Boon with his 5th level? I reaaallllyyy want a hedge knight with 4 bodyguards (2 levels) and able to make a unit rush then charge (3 levels). Otherwise I'll only be able to take 2 bodyguards (1 level) and get a boon.
2. If a unit charges and kills some models, so they are not all in base contact, do they all count as in combat for shooting purposes? Do the unengaged models have the ability to charge into the combat they're already in, but not touching, next turn?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also is it written anywhere that artillery ignores body armor, but not shield armor, as stated at TempleCon?

With your 5 hero levels, couldn't you just take two Hedge Knights? One with two ranks in Hedge Rider and another with three ranks in Boubonic Honor? It would give you the same buffs and an extra Hedge Knight.

The answer to your artillary question on page 67 "Artillery attacks ignore armor except shield AR."

Cyp- But if the unit is shot at, some are in melee and some not. Shots carry over onto the models in melee, but can shots hit the enemy?

I have 10 hamsters charge in, after killing stuff, 2 are now unengaged. Enemy unit activates to shoot at them. Can you do a step by step? Either they're a unit in melee or not, because missed shots could then roll over onto enemies.

Catyr, true

 RiTides wrote:
Cyp- But if the unit is shot at, some are in melee and some not. Shots carry over onto the models in melee, but can shots hit the enemy?

I have 10 hamsters charge in, after killing stuff, 2 are now unengaged. Enemy unit activates to shoot at them. Can you do a step by step? Either they're a unit in melee or not, because missed shots could then roll over onto enemies.

Catyr, true

If there are models engaged in Melee (B2B), and you shoot into Melee AND miss, those models take the hits.
If a Squad charges into melee, and all models that were engaged get wiped out leaving no models in B2B then missed shots go off into nothingness.

Okay, so if even one model in my "unit" is still in melee after a charge (i.e. everything does not get wiped out), and my "unit" gets shot at, the enemy models that are in B2B can take hits.

 RiTides wrote:
Okay, so if even one model in my "unit" is still in melee after a charge (i.e. everything does not get wiped out), and my "unit" gets shot at, the enemy models that are in B2B can take hits.

Yes, but just the ones in B2B with that guy.

Oooh, I didn't realise I could mix talent trees on the same hero! That could be fun.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Oooh, I didn't realise I could mix talent trees on the same hero! That could be fun.

Yup, just remember that you can't take a higher rank of an ability without taking the preceding ones.

On the 'more talents' front of your question RiTides, also note that there are alternative rules in the campaign section for allowing heroes to go up to level 10. If people preferred to play at that level, you could have a hero that goes up to level 10, gaining 8 talent ranks, and 2 boons. As Caty suggested though, you could resolve the issue with two hedge knights. The leveling system was designed to allow you to make one really powerful hero, but spreading your levels about is more effective (no upgrades to stats at all, no more equipment upgrades after 4, etc)

Just letting you know you could if there is a consensus amongst other players.

I looked at the talents again but I actually quite prefer my original 10hlvl choice.

I was putting my 200r list together and I have some questions now if you don't mind clarifying:
1. If an artillery piece is in base contact with a wall, can it be fired over/through it like infantry?
2. Bull Regulars have Pith Helms in their standard equipment yet a price is quoted at then end of the Axon section, should I be paying 2GD each or getting them free?
3. I have assumed not but can miniatures be in a trench, in base contact with a wall and fire artillery? It sounds ridiculous obviously but I haven't seen any rule that stops any combination like that from happening.

Those are the only things I can remember now.

1) Yes
2) Pith Helms got changed to Standard at some point between 1.0-1.2 and the cost just didn't get removed.
3) Yes.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I looked at the talents again but I actually quite prefer my original 10hlvl choice.

I was putting my 200r list together and I have some questions now if you don't mind clarifying:
1. If an artillery piece is in base contact with a wall, can it be fired over/through it like infantry?
2. Bull Regulars have Pith Helms in their standard equipment yet a price is quoted at then end of the Axon section, should I be paying 2GD each or getting them free?
3. I have assumed not but can miniatures be in a trench, in base contact with a wall and fire artillery? It sounds ridiculous obviously but I haven't seen any rule that stops any combination like that from happening.

Those are the only things I can remember now.

Just keep in mind that 200 resources is a large game... Most of the Brushfire players I know have a hard enough time fielding 100 resources let along double that.

On another note, I think you'd be severally hamerping yourself by playing one level 10 hero... With Aquitar at 100 resources and 5 hero levels I've been running a level 4 Trapper and a level 1 Tactician to great effect.

A question on determining the armor value of a horde unit. Do you use the armor rating that the majority of the models in the horde have or the higherst? An example would be I have a horde of 15 models, 10 of those models have armor 2 and 5 of those models have armor 3.

Gym and I played 100r and it was great but I do want a 200r game soon!

Caty, AR is on a model by model basis. If the first model has 2 AR, it could soak a 2 DE attack before taking damage. If that model dies and you've still got attacks left over, and you decide to make a higher AR model soak it, thats fine, apply damage to a 3 AR model, soaking 1.5 hits. Just pulling random numbers out of my butt, but I hope that explains it.

Just remember that with your other stats, the highest most common is the modifier you add to your rolls.

(Edit to use your AR example)

I don't know why I'm having such a hard time keeping the proper way to apply damage and armor straight in my mind. It's not complicated but I'm having a hard time keeping it straight. I think I played it wrong Saturday night at Templecon.

Thanks for those replies guys.

Cyp, with 3. do you mean yes that's possible or yes that's not possible? Sorry my original question was posed a little criptically.

Caty, to be honest I'll build the army and probably never play it, I'm not much for gaming so all the other gamers I know are on Dakka. I'm more into fluff and miniatures. I do plan on playing a lot of Brushfire at warband level though, I bought the first 6 warbands to get my friends into gaming. But yeh the 200r army will probably just be for display unless one of you guys flies over to Glasgow.
Also, the 10hlvl thing was badly worded on my part, I meant that I was happy with my choice at 10 which is actually two level 5s. I considered more lower level heroes but the Dukes have some great high level talents. Full Caution and full Patient with two boons. Buff city!

Thanks again.

Casey, are we talking 'low wall', generic terrain +2 WS? or purchased fortification 'wall' +3 Shield AR against artillery otherwise no-LOS?

If you're in the trench, you're not in B2B with the low wall, so it is providing +2 WS to what you're shooting at, but you're getting +3 WS, it doesnt stack, the trench trumps the low wall.

With the fortification wall, artillery ignores LoS so you can shoot templates over it. Just remember that Ballista/Cannon fire will hit the wall, damaging it, unless you're ON the wall (its supposed to represent a fort or castle wall, rather than a hedgerow)

 Casey's Law wrote:
Thanks for those replies guys.

Cyp, with 3. do you mean yes that's possible or yes that's not possible? Sorry my original question was posed a little criptically.

Caty, to be honest I'll build the army and probably never play it, I'm not much for gaming so all the other gamers I know are on Dakka. I'm more into fluff and miniatures. I do plan on playing a lot of Brushfire at warband level though, I bought the first 6 warbands to get my friends into gaming. But yeh the 200r army will probably just be for display unless one of you guys flies over to Glasgow.
Also, the 10hlvl thing was badly worded on my part, I meant that I was happy with my choice at 10 which is actually two level 5s. I considered more lower level heroes but the Dukes have some great high level talents. Full Caution and full Patient with two boons. Buff city!

Thanks again.

I'm all for buying models you'll never actually play... After all I'm sitting on about 800 resources of Aquitar and another 100 or so of Civatas...

I miss understood you talking about the 10 hero levels thinking you were only going to take 1.

Haha that's awesome. Does anyone know how well the game translates at such huge points levels?

 Casey's Law wrote:
Haha that's awesome. Does anyone know how well the game translates at such huge points levels?

It was designed to be able to go up to high levels, we playtested a couple of times at 500 without any issue.

You're just going to want a bigger table, generally 4x6, deploying on the short sides.

At higher point levels, things die a lot faster. You've got more full squads quickly cutting down models. About 4 or 5 turns in, it starts to look like a regular point level game. So the difference is really how 'violent' you want the first few turns.

I wont say it isnt fun gunning down lots of hamsters....

 miskatonicalum wrote:
I wont say it isnt fun gunning down lots of hamsters....

Yeah, seems to be a popular pasttime

Sounds really bloody...

Awesome!

 miskatonicalum wrote:
Casey, are we talking 'low wall', generic terrain +2 WS? or purchased fortification 'wall' +3 Shield AR against artillery otherwise no-LOS?

If you're in the trench, you're not in B2B with the low wall, so it is providing +2 WS to what you're shooting at, but you're getting +3 WS, it doesnt stack, the trench trumps the low wall.

With the fortification wall, artillery ignores LoS so you can shoot templates over it. Just remember that Ballista/Cannon fire will hit the wall, damaging it, unless you're ON the wall (its supposed to represent a fort or castle wall, rather than a hedgerow)

Sorry I missed this, thanks for clearing that up. I assumed the two types of wall were the same actually so I'm glad that came up. So if you are in a trench you are at a lower height so not in base contact with anything higher? I guess that means you also couldn't fire a siege weapon that is above you.

Other questions that are coming up:
If you place two trenches together do you have to exit one to enter another or can you walk along the full length?

If you have a buff like '+1DE to all friendly models' does that effect the ballista by adding 1DE to every model or fortification hit?

The Intent of the trenches is that you could link them together and walk their full length.

It would affect the Ballista, but it wouldn't stack per model with the buff.

Thanks. So the Ballista gets plus one DE on just the first model the line hits? Does it get that again on it's second shot?

I am unaware of what you are refering to. A Ballista does 1 DE to each model in the line, where is the +1 coming from? If it is a bonus from a model I cant recall off the top of my head, then yes, it would apply to the second shot.

Yes sorry it's a passive Imperial Duke bonus. So just to clarify, the Ballista gets +1DE on every model or fortification it hits in it's line of fire and that includes the second time it shoots?

As a follow up, does nothing happen if it hits another piece of artillery? Is there no way to destroy a Ram or Trebuchet for instance?

Sorry about all the questions.

No need to be sorry about the questions, it's perfectly alright

Ah, yes then, the Ballista would do +1 DE with both attacks.

Siege Weapons do not have VY, unlike Fortifications. The reasoning for this was to allow models to replace others as they were killed. This forces a player to make a decision: devote resources to manning their siege weapons, or abandon the siege weapon to keep their forces fighting on the battlefield. An unmanned Siege Weapon can also be taken over by enemy forces, so be careful!

Thanks Alf, I worry that I can be quite cryptic at times.

And thanks, Matt. That clears things up nicely! I think I would leave some cheap troops near my artillery. Since the highest BS fires, I can go down to half strength and still fire the same.

Oh and I assume artillery bases block movement? It shouldn't be an issue but it might stop a new firer getting into base contact with a different piece. (e.g. from A to C through B)



And i'll almost certainly never do this but I just realised 5 lvl2 heroes can passively buff a ballista to 6damage per hit. Dayuum! Actually there are loads of great stacking buffs with low level imperial dukes. 10 heroic actions for guaranteed hits. Probably not as effective as they sound though, a nice balance of buffs is likely to do more good I think.

I'm afraid that the same talent doesnt stack bonuses, they'd only 'stack' in area of coverage (Obviously Patience isnt an AoE so that doesnt apply). That bonus would make Axony way too overpowered.

 miskatonicalum wrote:
I'm afraid that the same talent doesnt stack bonuses, they'd only 'stack' in area of coverage (Obviously Patience isnt an AoE so that doesnt apply). That bonus would make Axony way more overpowered than they already are.

As someone that doesn't like the cats, I believe my amended statement reflects accurately

Oh that's good! It would definitely be exploited by someone.

Out of interest, what makes the Axons overpowered?

 Casey's Law wrote:
Oh that's good! It would definitely be exploited by someone.

Out of interest, what makes the Axons overpowered?

The Regulars are probably the best Rifle-line troop in the game atm, and everyone is scared of Fat Cat.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Oh that's good! It would definitely be exploited by someone.

Out of interest, what makes the Axons overpowered?

Fat Cat has a 28 to 32 inch charge on the first turn if I remember correctly... The only thing that would prevent him from shredding you at the beginning of the game is LoS blocking terrain or him going first...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Oh that's good! It would definitely be exploited by someone.

Out of interest, what makes the Axons overpowered?

Fat Cat has a 28 to 32 inch charge on the first turn if I remember correctly... The only thing that would prevent him from shredding you at the beginning of the game is LoS blocking terrain or him going first...

Speed 8, Rushes 16. Heavy Cavlary, so 5" Charge Range. Means that if you deploy 21" from Fat Cat, he can turn one charge you. Considering Deployment zone is 10" from the edge on a 48" table, this is not possible.

He has a Rank 2 Talent that increases Charge by 2", but that still wouldn't make the gap.

He has a boon that gives his first charge 25" (IE: Striking Leap), Total movement Value of 41".

So if you have a HLVL 5 Heavy Brigadier, and choose that boon, you could get a turn 1 charge off.. just like you could with Juan of Brisica.

I'm more afraid of Fat Cat than I am of Juan... Badgers give 0 trucks about mice... Pesky British Cats are another thing.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I'm more afraid of Fat Cat than I am of Juan... Badgers give 0 trucks about mice... Pesky British Cats are another thing.

Your Badgers will hit a Cat at WS 2 just as well as they will a Mouse, all you need is 3 Badgers attacking him to take him down... just like Juan.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I'm more afraid of Fat Cat than I am of Juan... Badgers give 0 trucks about mice... Pesky British Cats are another thing.

Your Badgers will hit a Cat at WS 2 just as well as they will a Mouse, all you need is 3 Badgers attacking him to take him down... just like Juan.

You say this as if you wrote the game... You don't know my fear D:. I was trying to teach someone the game, and he didn't even have to use Striking Leap... We were on a small enough table that his regular Rush and charge was enough to get me in combat... My 2 badgers didn't know what had hit them

Hmm, fair enough. Definitely a powerful move but I can't tell what would qualify as op yet. Fat Cat doesn't work for me anyway, I'll be taking a pair of Imperial Dukes.

The Regulars are probably my favourite so far. I was originally planning to go all cc and take loads of Highlanders but I ended up swapping half the list after reading their profile. Combining them with ballistas for early game and Duke buffing makes them scary but I'm still worried about ambushers and such which will make me hold back 10 Hogs.

I should probably start a thread for this before I go hugely off topic...

More questions in this thread are always good, but starting a new one detailing your army building would also be good

Sorry if any of these were asked earlier, but I didn't yet have the time to read trough this topic.

About Fleeing:
If a model flees as a charge reaction or because of Fear, it has to flee away from the effect causing model. Does this has to be the exact 180° angle? Like it has to flee in the line formed by the two models, away from the model that causes it to flee?

What if the fleeing model(or models) bumps into a terrain it can't go trough, or into an enemy model(s) before it reaches it's maximum moving distance?

About "Can always make a charge reaction" abilities:
If a model is on b2b with an enemy model(so normally it can't make a charge reaction), and gets charged by a second enemy model, but can always make a charge reaction, can it make a charge reaction?

If one of my models have the Effigy of Defeated Foes(grants +3" charge range), and a friendly model wants ti charge an enemy model from 9 inches away, while the enemy model is at 14 inches away from the banner bearer model, is it possible to make the charge? In other words the charging model would leave the banner's range.

Following this up(the first charge can be made, but the charging model still ends up more than 10 inches away from the banner), if the charged model activates to make a flee and now the charging model can make a second charge, but can it charge up to 6" because this was it's charge range to begin with, or not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm planning to build some terrain pieces, so I checked the Fortifications section of the book, but it only states the size of the base (I think). So, a wall should be 2" x 6", but how high it should be? I guess it should be high enough to block Line of Sight for 50mm base models, which is minimum 3".

Does this wall has a top where the owner can put archers? How friendly models move up and down from this wall?

All of the structures are missing their 3rd dimensions.

Also, the base sizes of some siege machines are given in inches while just a line up the crew's base requirements are given in millimeters. I guess you can buy the bases this way, but it's just really weird for me(I'm from europe).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How Squads are getting determined on the purposes of defense?

Many abilities are targeting squads, but squads are formed during activation, and can be formed completely differently in the next.

For example, a Warlord's Dishonor Guards can activate with the Warlord. A Kunoichi's Water Nmpo can target a squad. One turn I might activate the rats with the Warlord, others I might not. So they might be a squad or might not. When the Water Nimpo hits, how it gets determined if the Warlord and the rats that are around is, or is not belong to a squad?

Yes you fleet 180 away from the fear causing model. Fleeing models stop short if they run into terrain they cannot move through, or enemy models.

"Can Always make a charge reaction" is poorly worded. It means the model can make the charge reaction even if they have already activated this turn. They still cannot make a charge reaction if they are in b2b with an enemy model.

The Banner effect remains with you throughout the model's activation. If they started within the aura of the banner, they keep it until they finish their melee phase. They would also gain it if they moved into the aura during their activation.

Yes the wall should be high enough to block LoS for 50mm models...the purchased Walls are considered to simply block LoS for all models except those ON them, so yes, you can put ranged units on it (this is also what siege ladders are for, to get up and down)

The third dimension is abstract for all terrain pieces (Except for walls, expect to see that removed from it in the future) LoS blocking is based on horiziontal, total thickness of terrain, not upon vertical height of terrain. Essentially, all that matters is 'how much' stuff is between you and what you're shooting at.

Here in the US we dont really get bases in inches. The closest we have is the 25mm square which is damn near 1", but beyond that, all bases are in millimeter. We still use measuring tapes in Imperial, so the size of un-based terrain is also given in Imperial, as is the movement/charge range etc. Another way to simply look at the base requirements is, that you need at least 3 'small' based models to man a siege weapon, or at least 2 'medium+' based models. (I believe that covers most of them, i think some like the siege ram or ladder use a different number)

Hopefully this will clarify. Please keep the comments coming. We will make sure adjust anything that needs it for the next printing.

I found some typos and inconsistencies in the PDF. Where can I put them?

You can send it to matt at on-the-lamb.com or contact at.

Some more questions about charging...

If I want to maximize my charge range, can I do the next?

My model moves towards an enemy model as long as it can, ending up one inch from it, and declares charge against it. The enemy model activates to flee, and moves 4 inch away, making a 5 inch gap, then I make my first charge move, so the models are 2 inch apart. Now I can second-charge with 3", catching up to the enemy model.

Is this right? It would not work if I stop my model at 3 inch and make the first charge from there.

The Hamster Berserker's Northern Berserkers rule says:
"On a 3-8 move that distance in inches in
any direction as per normal movement. On a 9-10 move towards
the nearest enemy model, Immediately charge up to 10” into close
combat (if possible) and have +5 MT during the charge."

On a roll 9 or 10, they can move 9-10 inches then charge from there up to 10 inch? When they second-charge, can that be 10 inch again? (we are at 30" at this point, give it a banner and it's 36"). I guess it's supposed to be a 10" charge from where the Berserker was activated, because whit this they can outrun a mount and still not count rushed.

Also the Territorial rule is confusing. What if I activate my Berserkers as a squad? Do I roll after every one of them, and basically I can't activate them as a squad, but one after the other, without giving control to the other player?

Can you charge after you rushed? I think the book doesn't say you can't. Nor that you can.

The only answer I have is to your final question:

You can charge after rushing, just remember that you don't add your stats to the roll.

On technicality, the model flees after you finish the charge into B2B. so you're at 0 inches away, they fleet their speed of 4, and then you can charge your charge range again. So you would likely not reach them, unless they fled into movement reducing terrain (Charges ignore movement reduction, so you could catch them.) More likely what you would do is 'redirect' the charge into a different squad nearby. This charge redirection does not elicit a charge reaction from the second squad either.

The 9-10 result 10" charge is not the Berserker's normal charge range, so would not be used on a secondary charge when the target flees.

You roll Northern Berserkers for an entire squad not per model. The models within the squad to elicit the Northern Berserkers rule from each other (ie, you would roll if you activated a single hamster next to another, or if you activated them together.)

As Alf said, you can charge after a rush (unless a model's special rules state otherwise), Just remember that your MT will be 0 (+2 for charging) so you're less likely to hit.

Unless stated otherwise, in Brushfire, a model may use every phase stated (Tactical/Heroic Phase being the exception as most models do not have Tactical/Heroic Actions) A model may move, shoot, then charge.

miskatonicalum wrote:The 9-10 result 10" charge is not the Berserker's normal charge range, so would not be used on a secondary charge when the target flees.

miskatonicalum wrote:The Banner effect remains with you throughout the model's activation. If they started within the aura of the banner, they keep it until they finish their melee phase. They would also gain it if they moved into the aura during their activation.

I just want to check on those two rulings. Hamster Berserkers only get the boosted charge on the first use of it, but units affected by a Banner, who go out of its range, still get the bonus? Isn't that a bit counter-intuitive?

The special 10" charge is not a bonus to the Hamster's charge range, it makes them charge 10" flat. By that logic, If a model were to make a Cavalry Charge, and just a single model were to flee, they would get a doubled charge range (just going off a basic heavy cavalry speed 5, that'd be a 30" Cavalry Charge (10" Rush, 5" Charge, times two). Special Charges do not roll over to a model's Charge Redirect. I will clarify this in the next edition.

The Banner is providing a buff in an fix area, its not a huge range, and most models that would charge would move out of it's aura during their move phase, rendering the banner pointless.

Thanks for the clarification Matt.

But we just cleared that it does not matter if you leave a banner's area. If you started whitin it, the banner's effect stays until the end of the activation, so the second charge has a +3" range, even if the model left the banner's effect area whit it's movement.

That's cleared out some mist about the Northern Berserkers, but if you roll 9 or 10, can you move the Hamster that far and after that you can make a charge with 10" range? That's still makes the Hamster Berserker move 19-20", or with double-charge, 24-25". If they started under a banner, that's still 30-31".

So if I have two Hamster Berserkers and activate them as a squad, I have to roll for Northern Berserkers Will they attack eachother on 1 or 2, or will they both attack the closest unit?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How Squads are getting determined on the purposes of defense?

Many abilities are targeting squads, but squads are formed during activation, and can be formed completely differently in the next.

For example, a Warlord's Dishonor Guards can activate with the Warlord. A Kunoichi's Water Nmpo can target a squad. One turn I might activate the rats with the Warlord, others I might not. So they might be a squad or might not. When the Water Nimpo hits, how it gets determined if the Warlord and the rats that are around is, or is not belong to a squad?

The Northern Berserkers charge is a fixed charge, just as Charge Redirects do not benefit from it, It would not benefit from any Charge bonuses. So Move their Speed (not 9 or 10 inches, they simply move, and then Charge 10" for a threat range of 15" (+3" if the target flees)



With Northern Berserkers, they could attack each other.



Squad Targeting all depends on how they were activated last. If the Dishonor guards last activated in a squad with the Warlord, they would all be subject to Water Ninpo.

As you have yet to activate any models at deployment, you declare how they are squad'ed up during deployment.

Thanks for the answers! You guys are really helpful!

I got some more...

If a model with "Can always make a charge reaction of..." is not yet activated, but being charged, do making the charge reaction of it's ability makes that model count activated?

If not, Can it make it's ability's charge reaction and activate for a second reaction? Like Otter ashigarus with guns can make a stand and shoot then activate to flee?

Is charging targets a squad, or is it targets individual models? For example if I activated my Warlord in the previous turn with it's Dishonor Guards, now they are a squad. If they are being charged(and they are not activated this turn), can I choose the Brace reaction if one(or two or some) of the Rat Raiders have a Targe(Held Shield)?

Shields and Held Shields are not the same, right? It's confusing because Held Shields allow the Brace charge reaction, while the Pavise being the only non-held shield does give bonus against charging. A Valkyr does not have Held Shield, just Shield so it cannot Brace, right?

Pistols can be used in melee combat, but they are count as melee weapons in that situation? Or for example a Shrew Hussar activating in B2B can have a ranged phase, even if it is in B2B, effectively making 3 attacks(and one more with the mount)?

Does the +2 MT charge bonus stacks with the Horn of the Shattered Claymore's +3 MT? Based on the horn's description it doesn't, but then which one will be used?

Have the Formations got removed?

What is Soft and Hard Cover?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have read trough this thread and run into the situation with the Mouse Lancers charging from so far away the Shrew hussars couldn't fire back, because they where out of range. Funny story.

I had a question about charging and getting a flee reaction earlier where it turned out, the chargers move to b2b, then the defenders flee from there, and finally the chargers may second-charge.

The point is, Flee happens after b2b contact have been made while counterfire happens before the attackers move to b2b?

Then what happens with the Shrew hussars? They flee and counterfire. They counterfire before the charge move is made, and flee after the chargers moved in b2b?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is also not stated in one way or the other, but does having pike and shield equipped make the shield have reach attack?

As it currently works, making a 'free' charge reaction is only free if you've already activated, otherwise it counts as activating.

Even if we change it in the future, no, that wouldn't let you make two charge reactions.

When a squad is charged, you can choose to activate any number of them to make charge reactions, but they must all make the same charge reaction.

A Pavise is a standing shield, you stick it in the ground in front of you to protect you from ranged fire. Pavises do not count in Melee, but do in the initial charge (before your attackers are 'on the other side' of the shield) so they cannot be used to Brace or make an additional attack like Held Shields.

The distinction of calling things like the armor of a Valkyr 'shield' armor is to state that it counts against Artillery, or attacks that ignore body armor (armor that is not shield armor)

Yes in melee Pistols count as melee weapons, you roll MT instead of GE in the melee phase. They cannot be used to shoot out of close combat during the Ranged Phase.

The Horns do not stack with additional horns (you couldnt buy 3 horns, use them all at once, to get +9 MT) but they do stack with other bonuses.

Yes, formations were removed.

There should not be anything that refers to soft or hard cover. It may be a typo on my part, refering to 'fortifcations', as hard cover, terrain pieces that can be damaged by artillery.

Counterfire occurs after the Charge Move is completed. You will always be in range for making your Counterfire.


Edit to Answer Appended Post: Only the Pike would have Reach, you would be unable to make shield attacks (or any other non-reach attacks) through intervening models.

So if my Rat Raiders get charged and I call Brace as a reaction, it will only going to have effect on the models that are equipped with Held Shields?

Do a squad has to have line of sight on the target squad to be able to declare a charge against it?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
So if my Rat Raiders get charged and I call Brace as a reaction, it will only going to have effect on the models that are equipped with Held Shields?

Do a squad has to have line of sight on the target squad to be able to declare a charge against it?

Yes you do, otherwise you could Kool-Aid Man your way through a wall. While Charge movements ignore movement penalties from terrain, you still need to be able to draw line of sight.

It came up in my mind because of the Mouse Lancers. 25" is plenty to go around some walls and charge someone whitout having line of sight. I'm glad they can't.

Just remember though, that a single model needs line of sight to make the 25 inch striking leap. So the squad can move in such a way that a single model can draw LoS, then you move the squad 25 inches ignoring terrain (since you ignore movement penalties due to terrain) and get all nice and snug in b2b.

I'm still confused about the squad system. So when it's your move, you choose a group of models that are allowed to be in a squad to activate. Just one model can form a squad. These models will be considered to be in a squad until when exactly?

Because charging targets a squad, but only the models are considered charged that are end up in b2b, and that squad does not have to react as... a squad, because as a charge reaction I can now activate any number of them, ignoring their... squad-ness(?) So If I have two models that where in one squad and now are both in b2b with the enemy, I can choose to activate just one of them to react. Right?

Then what if I do this:
I activate a group of models as a squad and in the next turn, I activate just one of them and leave the rest for later. I don't even move this model, just shoot or something. So, the squad status of this group of models are now quite confusing.

After this, the opponent decides to charge this group of models. I guess all the models are allowed to be charged, even so they are obliviously not in one squad, Now the charge targets at least two squads.

Sqauds doesn't have to keep theyself separated. Two models that cannot even be in a squad are allowed to be right next to eachother, but if charging targets a squad, the opponent may be not allowed to move it's models b2b with both of them and obliviously not allowed to direct attacks against both of them, since only one of them is charged and that would be off-target. That seems wrong.

But if in this situation, the opponent is allowed to charge both models, then I should be allowed to activate both of them to react. but they cannot be in a squad, so I should activate them as separate squads, even choosing different charge reactions to them. And that is not allowed, right?

This situation might be rare, but I bet I can use it if I want for some crazy-cheezy tactic.

Okay, so say I have 5 Weasel Fusiliers. On turn 2, I activate 1 of the Weasels, say the one out front. He stands where he is, and shoots. Until the following turn when both he and the other 4 weasels are able to activate, they are considered separate squads, since you cannot join a squad if you've activated. So after my lone Fusilier fires, I give the activation over to you, and you activate a squad of 3 mouse conscripts, you move and charge into that blob of weasels, but you only have the movement to get into combat with that lone weasel that activated already. Since he activated, I wouldn't be able to get a charge reaction (as a charge reaction uses up your activation). and we'd move into the melee phase as normal.

If you had enough movement to get into melee with both squads, the lone weasel wouldn't get a charge reaction, but the other 4 would. Then when you enter the melee phase, you can only attack models that you are in b2b with.

Exactly, and I just charged two squads with one charge.

The point is, what if I have the movement to make all the b2b I want, and maybe I even willing to despite the counterfire or other reactions. I just directed my charge against two or more squads. Is that legal?

Can I arrange my charging Conscripts in a way that one of the Conscripts are in base contact with one Fusilier from both Fusiliers squads(quite possible), and let's suppose my conscript can attack twice, can I target the one unactivated, and one from the activated weasels?

You must prioritize your attacks against the model/squad that you declared the charge against, but if you have models in base to base with both squads or the squad you didn't charge, attacks can roll over on to the other squad if the charging model is no longer in b2b with the model/squad they declared the charge against.

If you charge the activated squad, and wind up in b2b with the non-activated squad, you wouldn't get any charge reactions against you as the activated squad is unable to make a charge reaction, and the non-activated squad wasn't the target of the charge.

You can charge more than one squad, with one particular caveat. Your models must end up in B2B with at least one model of the target squad.


I also think you're thinking this strategy is more effective than it really is. Attacks from a model can only be directed against models the attacker is in B2B with. If you activate one model by itself, and the chargers are unable to get into B2B with the other models that WERE in the same squad, thats changing nothing. If you activate them all together, the chargers are still only able to get into B2B with one model, in either case, the attacks apply to this model only.

What you're really doing by activating models individually is hurting yourself, Your attacks are not stacking to exceed a target's armor, it is more effective for you to have those 5 weasels all attack at the same time, instead of wasting attacks from 1 weasel just to 'defend' your squad from charges.

Your secondary squad would also not get charge reactions in this split squad setup, only the declared target gets a charge reaction.

How good a strategy is this is not my point here. what I'm trying to learn is how does this work?

I'm suspecting some weird logic here, and I'm asking this because at my point of view, this can be an error in the rules. If I'm getting annoying, I will stop, just say the word.

If in this situation - as I currently understand - if I'm on the charging side, I just won a free charge! I target the lone, already activated model, and get into b2b with the ones around it while they can't react since they are not targeted by the original charge. I declare all my attacks to the one who can't answer because it was already activated and if when it went down, I roll over the rest of the attacks to the others around it and they also can't answer because they weren't got charged. It's even cheesier if the chargers have pikes!

Yes that is how it works.

I see it as encouraging players to be aware of the position of their models, and consider when the best time to activate a model or squad is.

Much of the design ethic is to simplify and streamline game play. If we did not have it work this way, then simply by ending your charge in B2B with another squad, the defenders could easily make twice as many charge reactions as you. With ranged weapons on most models, Melee becomes quickly suicidal, Counterfire from twice as many models (or more if the squads are horde vs a regular or elite charging squad) will easily cut down even heavily armored units. Or what about heroes or lone exemplars? 1 model versus a single horde unit is tough enough, but 30 models? Melee would become a pointless massacre, instead of a squad getting an extra shot or so in.

Also note that even though these defenders would not get a charge reaction, they still get an activation. They can respond with melee attacks or step away and make ranged attacks at another squad.

Ah, so it's a feature, not a bug.

You really should mention this in the rulebook. I'm glad I didn't had to have an argument about this over the table.

As an idea, I think a single model based charge reaction would be more fair and simple, since the squads are hard to follow, but like this I can see it work now.

Thanks!

I don't think you'll have too much trouble distinguishing the various squads for a few reasons.

1) There are very few mixed squads in the game, if you're not running one of those squads, then no need to worry about it.
2) When you split a squad, it's generally so you can position yourself and fire at 2 targets, usually this means you'll be moving the first squad away from the second squad and you'll have two squads outside of 3 inch cohesion with each other
3) If you plan on splitting a squad and then not moving that squad, you could always put a little marker down to let you know.

Otherwise, it's up to you as the player to remember which models are in the squad. And technically charge reactions are given to the squad being charged, but it is a model by model basis to determine which model is electing to take the charge reaction, so if your 3 mice charge my 5 weasels (as a single unit), I can elect 3 of those weasels to take a charge reaction, which then splits them into a squad separately from the other two. Who will then get their activation as normal.

Edit: Remember, any model that elects to take a charge reaction must take the same reaction as the rest of his squad.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
You really should mention this in the rulebook. I'm glad I didn't had to have an argument about this over the table.

A thousand times this! I love this game, but if it's ever going to take off, the explanations (which take pages here because of the brevity in the rulebook) need to be expanded with more text and diagrams in the rulebook itself.

I don't know where I supposed to put this, so I'll put it here.


I was teaching some players to Brushfire in the other day and I would like to share how it went, and what where the main problems. I had made them read the 1.2 rulebook first, then we started with the army building.

One guy choosed the Scyzantine Empire, and he was equipping his Veiled Assasins when we run into this: The Veiled assasin starts with light armor, a crossbow and a dagger, and can be upgraded with a pistol and a 2nd dagger. I know that buying the pistol makes the crossbow redundant and removes it from the unit's equipment list(I actually know this from a Q&A from somewhere), but it was really hard to explain. Crossbows are one handed, their removal would cost it's always counterfire ability, the pistol is also one handed, can be dual-wielded and it does not have any better damage. In short, the upgrade lines are hard to follow. It would be nice if an upgrade would also say what does it make redundant. ilke "Crossbow -> Pistol, Dagger -> Dual Daggers".

The oher bing thing where are the definitions.
To learn what an unit can really capable of, one must start in the unit's character page and find all the mentionned definitions one by one. I don't have problem associating an ability with it's name as long as the ability's name is descriptive enough (this is what MTG does, and I'm fine with it), but Brushfire definitions are often branch out like a tree, and they are hiding numbers in the lower branches.
For example if a unit is Light Cavalry, it means that "this model retains 2 WS when rushing, it has 5" charge range instead of the normal charge range, it retains it's full GE while rushing and can perform Rushing Fire.
This definition hides two numbers, in four abilities that has not much to do with each othert and one of them is a name of an another ability(even if it is right on that page where Cavarlry is described). After three or four reads, I keep forgetting what my Shrew Hussar can do.
This get's worse with the weapons. A weapon is one to three numbers we should remember and know which is which, and sometimes one or two ability. We keep mixing up the shields after five games.

We often fight the rulebook instead the other army. It would help a lot if a unit's decription would show more from that unit. Especially the numbers.

Also, some more questions:

Can you decrease an ability to be negative? Crossbow losts -2 GE when you counterfire after activation, but after rushing, the model might start from 0 GE. Can using the crossbow bring this down to -2 GE?

The Shrew Hussar has dual pistols and a sword, what can he attack with in meele? I guess it must be a sword attack and a pistol attack.

If an unit can perform Rushing Fire, can it perform "walking" fire? I mean I only move it at it's normal speed but I still interrupt it's movement with it's ranged phase and keep it's stats because it haven't rushed.

Glad you're teaching the game! Just a few suggestions though, in any wargame you probably don't want to start a player off with things like army building and upgrades/customization. The first few games should be them getting used to the game itself. With that said, you're welcome to try and teach it how you want .

When it comes to upgrading models, a model in a squad may take any and all upgrades that are available for it. It's up to the player to decide how they want to use that equipment when making attacks. Though in cases like armor, I'm not sure when you'd want to "choose" to take the lighter armor you have lol. So your Veiled Assassin could take it's standard equipment in addition to the equipment that it has available to it under upgrades. So your Assassins could technically be equipped with 2 daggers, a pistol, and a crossbow. Though I believe there is some limit on this... I can't seem to find it in my pre-coffee state.

I'm a little confused about your issue with the definitions, everything you need for Cavalry are all listed on page 23 in rulebook 1.2 under Cavalry, so you read Cavalry, you get that you retain +2 Wits when rushing, you get a 5" charge instead of 3, and that all cav will be 1 of 2 types either light or heavy, which describes what they will be. When you talk about numbers, are you referring to the stats that they retain when they rush? Because it should say it right on your stat card, and any sort of "searching" for information is just a lack of experience with the game itself more than anything. I think the weapon thing is a similar symptom, A weapon does DE, it is generally 1HD or 2HD, and it might occasionally have AP or a range in inches on it. Even if you're coming from 40k, AP should be the easiest to remember, and it'll be just something you pick up as you play. But I guess I'm confused when you say,

WhiteRoo wrote:We often fight the rulebook instead of the other army. It would help a lot if a unit's description would show more from that unit. Especially the Numbers.

Are you saying, using a Valkyr as an example, that when looking at it's equipment it should look a little something like this:
Standard Equipment:
Greatsword - 4 DE, 2HD
Ironskin - 4 AR, Shield
Crossbow - 2 DE, 1 HD, 20" Range, Heavy Bolt

Instead of something like this:
Standard Equipment: - Greatsword, Ironskin, Crossbow

If that's the case, I could see where you're coming from, but at the same time, all of that information is provided on the stat cards which are provided with the model(s).

Also, some more answers:
Yes you can decrease a stat to be negative, there's nothing saying in the rulebook that they can't be reduced below 0.

Like I said above, your Shrew Hussar's attacks in melee are up to you, if you want to use both pistols in melee, you're totally allowed to. A good example of this is the Fox Shinobi has the standard equipment of 2 daggers (two 1 HD weapons), and can upgrade to get a Kusarigama (2 Hd weapon). When making melee attacks, the Fox Shinobi's player must decide which weapons he is using for his attack set.

And no, a unit cannot perform a "walking" fire, because the ability specifically states that it uses it's Rush Speed.

Crossbows and Pistols are both 1HD weapons, a Veiled Assassin can use both in Range Combat.

O.o my whole world is flip turned upside down....

There was a Q&A somewhere(I think it was the errata from 1.1 to 1.2 or from 1.0 to 1.1) that especially said that if a Weasel Fusilier is upgrading it's crossbow to a rifle, the crossbow is lost with it's counterfire ability. (I think the crossbow didn't got counterfire back then, the weasel fusilier got it as it's own)

Following the same logic here, with the pistol coming in, the crossbow goes out. Especially, since right next to the word "pistol" on the assassin's character page, it says "2nd dagger", which clearly states that the assassin can dual wield daggers... so it's just confusing.

I agree the stat cards for the models are really useful and are stating the statistics for the models and weapons, but we just don't have them all. If you guys ever put out a pack of all the stat cards in the game, I think I will buy it, but for many units we still have to rely on the book. I also think the stat cards shouldn't be necessities for the game. If the book would list these as in Alfndrate's example, that would be great.

Also(I'm not sure, because they are not with me right now but I will double-check) my Warlord's card still has the "2nd dagger" entry and does not lists "Heavy Bolt" for the crossbow. They are not accurate, so it would be really useful if the unit's character page would list these things.

About the definitions. "Light Cavalry" is still means four different abilities, and at least a reminder in the characters page and on the stat card would be useful about what they are, because... well it's four ability, and searching for the page about cavalry units takes a little time, and these little times add up. This is true for lot of the definitions. Elite is just borderline descriptive for "Immune to fear" and definitely doesn't suggest that the squad limit is 5, yet means both. "Heavy Bolt" isn't not suggests that I can counterfire with it. "Extended Reach" not suggest that this weapon can be wielded with a shield. Why the armory section defines things like Pistolier, Extended Reach, Quick Nock, Rifling, Pilum and so on, if these terms aren't getting used in the rulebook?

It's not that I would not be able to learn these, but it could be so much easier.

If this sounds a little offensive, I'm sorry about it.

On a brighter note, I just finished painting some Brushfire minis. I'll try to upload some photos when I'll have them but I wouldn't terrorize the forum with low res, out of focus pics that my phone can make.

There is a limit to the amount of information you can fit on a playing card sized peice of paper... Some cards in particular are already pretty full, I can't imagine fitting all the information your suggesting on a single card and going to multiple cards wouldn't be a good solution either.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
There was a Q&A somewhere(I think it was the errata from 1.1 to 1.2 or from 1.0 to 1.1) that especially said that if a Weasel Fusilier is upgrading it's crossbow to a rifle, the crossbow is lost with it's counterfire ability. (I think the crossbow didn't got counterfire back then, the weasel fusilier got it as it's own)

So, looking at the 1.0 to 1.1 errata, which Cy linked me to, you're right there is a question in there about the weasel with a rifle and a crossbow. You also have to remember that that errata was released in 2011, we're 2 years beyond that, and have the next printing of the book out (1.2). While not much has changed between the two of the versions, the FAQ brings to light that a model could not feasibly shoot with their rifles (a 2 handed weapon) in the shooting phase, and then expect to have their crossbows at the ready should they get charged. I could see if you were to get charged before your activation you could decide which weapon to use, though why your weasels with rifles are being charged is beyond me.

Following the same logic here, with the pistol coming in, the crossbow goes out. Especially, since right next to the word "pistol" on the assassin's character page, it says "2nd dagger", which clearly states that the assassin can dual wield daggers... so it's just confusing.

The other way to look at it is that a Crossbow in Brushfire is a 1 handed weapon, and all 1 HD weapons may be paired with a shield or another 1 HD weapon. Since both a pistol and a crossbow are 1 handed weapons, you can use them both in the Ranged Phase. The issue arises with the Charge Reaction Counter-Fire. If your unit has already activated, then they would only get the option of using their Crossbows, but if they had yet to activate they could fire both weapons. I guess I'm not seeing what's confusing about having a second dagger in relation to the pistol, should the Veiled Assassin's have "2nd Ranged Weapon: Pistol"?

I agree the stat cards for the models are really useful and are stating the statistics for the models and weapons, but we just don't have them all. If you guys ever put out a pack of all the stat cards in the game, I think I will buy it, but for many units we still have to rely on the book. I also think the stat cards shouldn't be necessities for the game. If the book would list these as in Alfndrate's example, that would be great.

The stat cards are necessary for play simply because it saves you the time and hassle of having to check the rulebook. Many other skirmish level games use statcards, and it's a breeze during games. Warmachine and Hordes being one of the obvious ones, I've got hundreds of points from those games, and I only own a single Faction book, because there is nothing that I need that I can't find in the stat card. Just like with this game, there is nothing you need that can't be found (for the most part) on the Stat Card, there is minor things like the Crossbow's Heavy Bolt, but that's considered a common ability of the crossbow, so if you know what the crossbow does, then you know what Heavy Bolt does. This is to save time and space. Malifaux, being another example of a skirmish game, does this same thing. They write out the model specific abilities, and anything that is considered "common" appears in the rulebook, and after some time, you shouldn't have much of a need to keep checking the book.

Also(I'm not sure, because they are not with me right now but I will double-check) my Warlord's card still has the "2nd dagger" entry and does not lists "Heavy Bolt" for the crossbow. They are not accurate, so it would be really useful if the unit's character page would list these things.

If your Warlord has information on it's stat card that is different from what's in the current rulebook, then you're playing with out of date stat cards, which is probably the root of your frustration in this situation. OTL does sell individual stat cards, and they're the most up to date. Though just to be complete in this, could you snap a picture and upload it to dakka, you can black out any important information (such as stats and abilities), I'm looking at mainly the shape and size of the card.

About the definitions. "Light Cavalry" is still means four different abilities, and at least a reminder in the characters page and on the stat card would be useful about what they are, because... well it's four ability, and searching for the page about cavalry units takes a little time, and these little times add up. This is true for lot of the definitions. Elite is just borderline descriptive for "Immune to fear" and definitely doesn't suggest that the squad limit is 5, yet means both. "Heavy Bolt" isn't not suggests that I can counterfire with it. "Extended Reach" not suggest that this weapon can be wielded with a shield. Why the armory section defines things like Pistolier, Extended Reach, Quick Nock, Rifling, Pilum and so on, if these terms aren't getting used in the rulebook?

There is a reminder on the Character page and the stat card... They both say: Type: Light Cavalry. So you go to the Cavalry page (page 23 in the rulebook) and see what cavalry and light cavalry get, and now you have your answer. Also all unit types are contained on Page 23. I'm not sure where you're looking at that Elite doesn't suggest that the squad limit is 5... on page 23 it says the following:

Brushfire - Historia Rodentia -, page 23 wrote:Elite
Squad Cap: 5 Models.
Immune to Fear.

Seems fairly straight forward to me. As to Heavy Bolt, the counterfire is not on the heavy bolt, but on the fact that your crossbow is a ranged weapon like it says in the Counterfire Charge Reaction. Heavy Bolt specifically let's you take counterfire even if you've already activated that turn, in addition to the plus 1 damage it does on a critical hit. The reason why things like Pistolier, Extended Reach, Quick Nock, Rifling, Pilum are in the rulebook is because they're weapon specific things. If a model can take a Pistol, they're going to gain the benefits of Pistolier, Extended Reach is actually a formatting issue. Extended Reach is is just for the ability to attack through 2 models. The other benefits, like being able to use it with a pike with a shield is specifically on the Pike, and not the Extended Reach. I can see that one getting fixed in the near future with an errata update.

If a charging Gecko Rider can holster it's long rifle and ready it's bladed ram while charging, I expect a Weasel Fusilier can grab their crossbows and counterfire while being charged, even if they mainly use rifles. Especially since swords(their melee weapons) are also one handed, and they have no shields, they could grab their crossbows. Weapon swaps are seeming to work instantly in this game. So does it's basic equipment ever gets removed from a model?

My main frustration is that our matches are always end with somebody checking out the rulebook because we didn't wanted to during the match and found out we did it all wrong because some unit works differently, or have some equipment nobody remembers it to have and so on. We slowly learn these things, but I wonder if it has to be like this.

The cards are generally okay (mines are outdated, but I still find them really helpful) but what I say is that the unit character pages in the rulebook should say more.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The cards are generally okay (mines are outdated, but I still find them really helpful) but what I say is that the unit character pages in the rulebook should say more.

If you would be so kind as to look at your rulebook, do you see a whole lot of white space on the unit pages? The problem with book publishing is that you try to fit all the important stuff that you can on a page, because each additional page adds money to the cost. Like if I add 2 pages of information (the front and back of a page, so like pages 255 and 256, I would have to find room elsewhere in the book for the other 2 sides of the sheet of paper I've just added to the book. More pages, means more expensive the book. The rulebook is already 254 pages, and retails for quite the nice price, but that's because there is very little white space, the book is a smaller size, and it's in black and white, these are all measures to keep the costs down for OTL and for us the consumer.

Veiled Assassins can use a pistol and crossbow in one activation!? I'm not sure why that's annoying me.

How come the models don't have those options? Are they out of date?

 Casey's Law wrote:
Veiled Assassins can use a pistol and crossbow in one activation!? I'm not sure why that's annoying me.

How come the models don't have those options? Are they out of date?

Every Veiled Assassin miniature comes with a Pistol Hand (Left Hand) and a Crossbow Hand (Right Hand)...

Also technically Veiled Assassins can use a Crossbow, a Pistol, and then the pistol again with a dagger, or 2 taggers in a single activation

Then what about the Weasel Fusiliers? Can they keep their Crossbows?

The errata is old, and was not accurate to the intent.

You can only use "two hands" (2HD) worth of ranged weapons, and 2HD worth of Melee weapons in a single activation. if you use your rifle during a turn, you lose the Free Counterfire from the Crossbow.

If you use your free counterfire, the model cannot use their rifle during their activation on that turn.

So you keep your crossbow, but you cannot use both it and the rifle in the same turn.

The pistol is a 1H weapon, so it can be used with a crossbow.

Casey, the Crossbow represents both a hand/light crossbow and a heavy crossbow, it all depends on the model carrying it. There are only three basic 1H ranged weapons, the Javelin, the Pistol, and the Crossbow, and pretty much the Veiled Assassins are the only one where it comes up that the Crossbow is 1HD.

But isn't activating to do something then later that turn using a "can always counterfire" ability is two activations?

Okay. 'during the same turn'

 WhiteRoo wrote:
But isn't activating to do something then later that turn using a "can always counterfire" ability is two activations?

If you activate your Weasels, which have both a rifle and a crossbow, and you fire the rifles that activation, you're using those rifles until their next activation, and would not be able to use the Crossbow's ability to "always take the counterfire charge reaction." If you were to use the crossbows during your activation, then you'd get the extra counter fires.

The same thing holds true if you were to be charged by something before you activated. Since charge reactions count as your activation, you may counter fire one time with the rifles, or counterfire as your normal charge reaction with crossbows and then gain the extra counterfire from the Crossbow's ability to be used later that turn.

"Effects provided by a weapon only apply during that turn, if you use it during a phase, or have enough free Hands (1HD or 2HD) to still use the weapon."

How it will be phrased in the next errata/update.

I see, thanks!

No problem

Get your minis painted and up here on Dakka

Aha, oh yeh the guns were in the other hand. So do we just have to remind the opponent what upgrades we've taken? Since we can't show all the weapons without converting the miniatures?

This is making me rethink things. For instance I decided that when i use the Assassins I'd keep the base weapons so that they could stay out of range and annoy the opponent. Now I'm thinking I should take the upgrades just incase. Hmmm...

The best option is to go full on WYSIWYG and attach one or more of the weapons to a belt or a strap.

If you have the resources, get the the Pistol Upgrade... if things are tight, got for the Dagger/or stay base. Pistol gives you 2 Shots at 15", and a second Melee Weapon via 'Pistoleer'

We have just run into the next one during a recent match.

We decided to run a fun game with some crazy lists, so I brought in Gotz von Frederwerk for my Vandalands army while the other side brought in Tatamata for his Ribenguo. His plan was to walk trough the battlefield with Tatamata, using his Gajin ability and take out Frederwerk. When Tatamata was charged I activated Frederwerk for a flee. We didn't finished the game because we had no time.

So the things we wasn't able to figure out:

Is artillery attack(like Frederwerk's flame cannon) has to be aimed at models/squads? The book mentions target squads, but in the same time it also says that fortifications can be attacked, which are (I think) not squads. Many template attacks does not aim at units, but areas. So, can I deliberately fire at Tatamata with Frederwerk's flame cannon(or any artillery fire) while it's Gajin ability is active? If the situation is right, can I roll over attacks to a model with a similar ability like Gajin?

Can I counterfire to a model with similar ability when it makes it's first charge?

Can I choose to flee from an attacker that has this active -or similar- ability? Will the ability trigger and the unit will be targetable after this happens?

Can I counterattack, brace, anti-charge... and so on against it?

Tatamata can be in a squad while it's Gajin is active since he can be in a squad with any wanderer. How it works when this squad gets attacked at this time?

If I aim artillery fire at a squad, how the template must be placed? What if the template cannot be placed in a way to damage all units in the squad? Must I have to aim for the highest number of hits or -for example- can I aim to hit the exemplar in the squad even it that means most of the squad will not get affected?

Where the template must be placed when I counterfire with a template attack?

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Is artillery attack(like Frederwerk's flame cannon) has to be aimed at models/squads? The book mentions target squads, but in the same time it also says that fortifications can be attacked, which are (I think) not squads. Many template attacks does not aim at units, but areas. So, can I deliberately fire at Tatamata with Frederwerk's flame cannon(or any artillery fire) while it's Gajin ability is active? If the situation is right, can I roll over attacks to a model with a similar ability like Gajin?

Artillery is a weapon tag in the basic armory. All that Artillery means is that they ignore all AR except armor provided by Shields. It is also the only way to damage fortifications. Gotz's flame cannon is a template weapon, so you follow template rules in which you only deviate if you miss. The issue that is arising is that you cannot target Tamatama until he makes an attack, which is a part of either the ranged phase, or the melee phase (but not the charge phase). Since Tamatama only has a melee weapon, you cannot target him until after he swings in melee. I believe if Tamatama is your only valid and legal target for rolling over attacks (in a situation where you charge his squad first), then I believe you are able to do this. Alternatively, jumping back to the Flame Cannon, If you place the template down and it deviates on to Tamatama and would hit him, since you were not targeting him with an attack.

Can I counterfire to a model with similar ability when it makes it's first charge?

No, until Tamatama attacks, the only charge reactions you can take are Hold or Flee

Can I choose to flee from an attacker that has this active -or similar- ability? Will the ability trigger and the unit will be targetable after this happens?

He will only be a valid target if he gets to make a melee attack. If he charges, and you flee and he doesn't catch you, he will not be able to get an attack because he doesn't have a melee phase.

Tatamata can be in a squad while it's Gajin is active since he can be in a squad with any wanderer. How it works when this squad gets attacked at this time?

The Seven Wanderers don't need to be within 3 inches to be considered a squad, that's covered on page 172 where it says, "These Exemplars may each be taken separately, but they activate at the same time and independently. Activate each exemplar in sequence before turning play over to the other player." The problem is that unlike other exemplars that have a squad type they may attach themselves with, like Gotz. Gotz is an exemplar, and his Squad says Valkyr. That means that Gotz may only ever attach himself to squads of Valkyr. So all of the 7 Wanderers have that as their squad type, and may only ever "attach" themselves to other 7 wanderers. BUT because of the rule I quoted, they will never activate or be attached like a normal squad, since you activate them all at the same time, but do each model's actions individually, one right after the other. If Tamatama is your only 7 Wanderer on the board, then he will activate on his own, and do his own thing.

If I aim artillery fire at a squad, how the template must be placed? What if the template cannot be placed in a way to damage all units in the squad? Must I have to aim for the highest number of hits or -for example- can I aim to hit the exemplar in the squad even it that means most of the squad will not get affected?

You place a template within the range of the weapon and hopefully over some models, and then roll a single die per template to see if you hit all the models under the template. The defender then rolls 1 die per model per template (so if you have 3 models under 3 templates, each model would roll 3 dice against the 3 templates). and compares that to what you rolled. Should you miss all the models with a single template, that template then deviates based on the deviation conditions on page 34. If it would deviate such a small amount that the original models targeted would be caught again in the template, they don't have to roll WS again. Though I'm not sure why you would just want to catch the exemplar in the blast...

Where the template must be placed when I counterfire with a template attack?

Anywhere you could legally place a template normally. So using Gotz's profile as an example, if you're being charged with Gotz, as long as you place the template within 5 inches of him.

So I can't just fire into an empty area(or area with no valid targets) with an artillery attack? I have to target a model or a fortification?

My problem with counter-firing with a template weapon is if I counterfire after the enemy closed in I might have to shoot under my models(earlier someone said that counterfire goes off after the attacking models are placed in so a counterfire may never be out of range), while if I can shoot before the enemy models charge in I have more freedom to aim.

Yes, you have to target a model.

Yes, if you try to counterfire with a Template, you will hit your own model in most cases.

But..

Gotz & his Squad are immune to fire, and can soak his 1DE Flame Cannon attack.. and you're better off doing Counterattack rather then Counterfire.

Gophers can Flee and still throw their dynamite.

and the Trapper has other options to use for Counterfiring.

Then if a model is capable of some kind of flee and counterfire, it can do that against Tatamata on it's first charge?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Then if a model is capable of some kind of flee and counterfire, it can do that against Tatamata on it's first charge?

Just the Gopher Engineer, who throws Dynamite at what made them Flee.

WhiteRoo, you're definitely not alone in your struggles. Often, the rules simply aren't fully explained, and what to do in certain situations isn't written down. I have high hopes this will be addressed in the near future by miskatonicalum, though .

Be wary of taking rule interpretations from anyone but him or Cyporiean. Often times, it is just a best guess from someone else, but from them you are getting it straight from the horse's mouth

Alf is on the OTLG writing team now, you can generally trust in him.

Then how it is decided if something is a fortification (things that I can aim artillery fire on) or not?

Only walls/gates/towers that are purchased by players (or otherwise named as destructible) are fortifications? If one quarter of the table is some kind of cover by default, that's a lot of things I cannot destroy.

Or everything that is not ground (walls that are not purchased, trees, houses) can be fired upon?

Fortifications are only those bought by a player.

WhiteRoo, I'm not sure if you've ever played other wargames, but the 25% coverage of terrain on the table is about average for most wargames. Also, in most of those games you can't destroy terrain, or it takes a bunch of effort to destroy the terrain. Also in most of those games, you can't buy fortifications as a part of your army. Though 6th ed 40k and I believe Fantasy had those rules...

No, I haven't. Before Brushfire I have read the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and played the Island of Blood a few times, but that's all. I'm new to this genre.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
No, I haven't. Before Brushfire I have read the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and played the Island of Blood a few times, but that's all. I'm new to this genre.

That's more than fine Glad you're choosing Brushfire

Can someone clarify this to me:

If I activate some number of Hamster Berserkers as a squad without Arctos Nevsky, I have to consult the Northern Berserkers rule.

I roll once on the Northern Berserkers chart for the whole squad.

Upon rolling 1 or 2 I have to make the squad attack the nearest model. Which is obliviously in the squad itself, since they have to be close to each other so I can select them as a squad(?). So every model in the squad immediately receives two axe strikes(?) or one axe strike depending "single attack" is one set of attacks or one roll of attack(I don't know).

Or the squad prioritizes other models around the squad? Which as long as they are not the only models in the field, will be present, but maybe far away. (Super-reach strike! - actually flying axes are awesomely terrifying)

Furthermore, Axes have no reach and the hamsters does not yet move this time and the ability does not forces them to do so, they can only hit models in B2B, so as long as the hamsters are not in B2B with each other the attacks cannot be made(?). 3" is a lot, bigger than the hamster's base, so even if cohesion is measured from the middle point of the base, they by far don't have to stand in b2b.

So as long as I pay attention to keep the hamsters away from B2B, this result only causes... what? Actually the ability does not says this attack counts as the melee phase (nor it is not an out-of turn move) furthermore they might have one more attack roll they can make, it's still just the beginning of the move phase, so can they continue their turn as normal but they lost one axe swing each?

I'm sure they intended to go berserk and occasionally hack teammates and each other, but this is so unclear.

On 3 to 8 they move that many inches as their normal move. Being unlucky with the dice means I can actually loose on movement? what happens if I want to rush this time?

the result on 9-10 was mentioned here before and It's clear to me.

Sorry for being such a smartass, but I really don't know how I supposed to interpret these rules.

It is poorly worded, but the intent was they charge the nearest model and make a single attack against it.

 Cyporiean wrote:
It is poorly worded, but the intent was they charge the nearest model and make a single attack against it.

Additionally, this is something we know about and are fixing for future errata, etc...

I will have to wait to deploy my fearsome hamster army then.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I will have to wait to deploy my fearsome hamster army then.

Nah, your chances of having them no act normally is only 2/5th of the time, and the chances of them not acting in a positive manner 1/5th of the time...

I know my rolls, or just rolls in general.

My problem is that it's a 2/5th chance per turn that the game stops for some head scratching.

I shall bring Nevsky then. (I was wondering who is the bear guy in the Vandalands cover, I tought Nevsky is a hamster... but it's him!)

Do you think making a 15 member Hamster Berserker squad with Nevsky and the Banner of the Fallen Heroes and walking around in the battlefield with a 20" area of terror goes too far? I guess I'll run Hedge knight for extra moves and even more CM.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I know my rolls, or just rolls in general.

My problem is that it's a 2/5th chance per turn that the game stops for some head scratching.

I shall bring Nevsky then. (I was wondering who is the bear guy in the Vandalands cover, I tought Nevsky is a hamster... but it's him!)

Do you think making a 15 member Hamster Berserker squad with Nevsky and the Banner of the Fallen Heroes and walking around in the battlefield with a 20" area of terror goes too far? I guess I'll run Hedge knight for extra moves and even more CM.

Remember though that out of the 2/5ths chance of something odd happening, 1/5th of that is the charge the nearest enemy and get +5 MT when you do so, so it's not too bad

Just ask RiTides how he deals with Northern Berserkers, he runs Vandalands exclusively

Can you guys calrify how the Axony Heavy Brigadier can use it's weapons? If it's on LV3 or higher how can it select between the Claws, Front Gauntlets and Greaves?

The weapon's description doesn't says how many hands these weapons need to be used or how they are distributed.

A model can use up to 2 HD worth of weapons in a phase, if a weapon does not have an HD tag it counts as 0 HD.

That's new... There are handless weapons in this game?

Claws are handless (hehe) and also Gauntlets and Graves but the last two is marked as Duel Wield. So a Heavy Brigadier on level 3 can attack 4 times with it's claws two times with it's Gauntlets and two times with it's Graves, rolling 8 attacks in total?


The definition "Duel Wield" seems to be missing from the book, shouldn't that be Dual Wield?

Its a typo, and was mostly removed before 1.2. Just ignore 'Duel/Dual Wield'

Generally the 'Handless' Attacks are going to be natural weapons, like tail based attacks or Shaka War Hogs' Tusks.

So it's 8 attack rolls then from 3 weapons?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
So it's 8 attack rolls then from 3 weapons?

Currently, yes. He is the main reason for Axony's Warband being OP atm.

I've just run into Amamimoto The Ronin in a match, so it doesn't surprises me. Dude was played whack-a-rat on my army.

But then if 8 attack rolls is the Heavy Brigadier's attack, with Feline Rage he can land it in every model he is b2b in? And here I thought the Seven Wanderers are OP.

Thanks for the clarification!

They're both pretty nasty little buggers. Which is why they get shot to heck by assassins and tied up in combat with Hassan.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I shall bring Nevsky then. (I was wondering who is the bear guy in the Vandalands cover, I tought Nevsky is a hamster... but it's him!)

Do you think making a 15 member Hamster Berserker squad with Nevsky and the Banner of the Fallen Heroes and walking around in the battlefield with a 20" area of terror goes too far? I guess I'll run Hedge knight for extra moves and even more CM.

It took me awhile to get that, too

As you mention, Nevsky and 15 hamsters makes a Great target for the Hedge knight's abilities (letting them move/charge an extra time).

My strategy to avoid Northern Berserkers and Terror has been to fling my hamsters across the board with trebuchets. The jury's still out on whether this strategy is working but it's fun! I actually have yet to run Nevsky, somewhat tempted to pledge for the Wild West Exodus "Geronimo" model, as otherwise I need to use Privateer Press' "Lug" model (let me know if you find a better bear somewhere).

I think I'll wait for it's release. It's not that far away I think. I don't have 15 Hamsters either after all. Neither catapults.

I have a Skaven Plague Catapult/Warpfire Cannon I'm currently building but the base is nowhere near to the Brushfire standard and I want the Warpfire Cannon, not the catapult.

What do you use for catapults?

I would probably use my hordes Warpwolf if I want to run Nevsky, alongside my Warpborn Skinwalkers for Berserkers.

I use the trebuchet rules with this model:



Which I got for cheap from Russia after finding out about it in this thread in N&R. They also have a nice cannon that I picked up after

Here's a link to their ebay store, I only see the cannon right now and not the catapult, but you can send them a message thru ebay about the catapult. I did asking if they had stock of the cannon (as their stock was the reverse for me) and they said they did, and I just bought it through their web page instead.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=251196033286&pt=Games_US&hash=item3a7c734906&_ssn=mrs-velard&rt=nc

Obviously ebay is preferable due to the safeguards, but both ways worked for me (ebay for the catapults, web store for the cannons).

Thanks!

I will take a look.