So It seems that DE are extremely fragile in 6th, since hull points. And our power weapons cant do much against 2+. are they still a great team to play in 6th?
DaKKaLAnce wrote:So It seems that DE are extremely fragile in 6th, since hull points. And our power weapons cant do much against 2+. are they still a great team to play in 6th?
Well, you pretty much get flickerfields for free now, if you move thanks to Jink.
You're AP2 Lances are also a lot stronger at Penetrating Armor, thanks to the +1 in provides on the Vehicle Damage chart.
You also completely ignore Nightfighting as well.
Those are just a few things I noticed when reading, but I had mostly a Necron Mindset
Yeah, Our offensive has gotten better, But what good does it do us if we cant last one turn:( Fnp has gotten slightly better, not enough to make a difference. I may have to use drazhar, his 2+ save will be awesome now
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah, Our offensive has gotten better, But what good does it do us if we cant last one turn:( Fnp has gotten slightly better, not enough to make a difference. I may have to use drazhar, his 2+ save will be awesome now
I don't think your skimmers are in any worse shape than before. HPs really don't make a big difference for an AV10 Open topped vehicle. Raiders have 3 HPs and Venoms have 2. If anything, it may make them a tad more survivable, since they won't get blown up from a Glancing hit anymore, unless it's lost all of it's hullpoints.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:So It seems that DE are extremely fragile in 6th, since hull points. And our power weapons cant do much against 2+. are they still a great team to play in 6th?
Well, you pretty much get flickerfields for free now, if you move thanks to Jink.
You're AP2 Lances are also a lot stronger at Penetrating Armor, thanks to the +1 in provides on the Vehicle Damage chart.
You also completely ignore Nightfighting as well.
Those are just a few things I noticed when reading, but I had mostly a Necron Mindset
I don't think lances are any better. AP2 gives +1 sure, but the damage chart will essentially be the same result. Rolling a 5 before was a wreck, now its an explode. A 4 is still immobilized, a 3 is still weapon destroyed.
Also, the increase in range for rapid fire means that we have to worry more about S4 glancing down our boats. The jink save is not flickerfield, but against most ranged weapons its a good substitute being free. This allows us to essentially gain a free nightsheild to help mitigate the increased S4 shooting the boats will be taking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Phototoxin wrote:We get more fragile to an extent although our haywire capabilities get a buff.
This is a pretty poor replacement. Our Melee offense also got nerfed, being vulnerable to small arms fire results in overwatch having a larger impact on DE assault units than most.
WWP Assaults are now no-go, as is zoom and assault.
We pay extra in points and fragility for our fast vehicles to be able to zoom-drop-assault, but now we can't do that. Ork trukks are in the same boat.
WWP delivery shooty units might be worth a go though.
Our assault units are likely to get shot up a bit more trying to get into assault, and out Pain Engines are now even less able to handle vehicles due to the loss of the 2d6 to pen.
I'll need to read the book, and try a few games to see how the rules interact, but right now it looks like we took a hefty kick in the effectiveness, and had our speciality (speed)handed out to every other army.
Agreed Ascalam. The good news is that venom spam, while more vulnerable with 2HP per venom, might still be playable. edit - this was sarcastic, i have no desire to play this type of list.
I don't really see much else that is playable.
I might be temped to start referring to Codex: Dark Eldar as Codex: Eldar Allies if I can't find a silver lining.
I like the slight buff to the lances. Now at the very least, glancing lets me do something to kill a vehicle. Having 3 Dark Lances just glance a Land Raider is annoying back then. At least after that, it's almost dead.
Darklight isn't the only thing we have for tankhunting. Haywires and Scourges could be useful now.
Hellions, Reavers, and Beasts with the Baron may be our new assault units.
Lou_Cypher wrote:I'm only slightly concerned about assaults.
I like the slight buff to the lances. Now at the very least, glancing lets me do something to kill a vehicle. Having 3 Dark Lances just glance a Land Raider is annoying back then. At least after that, it's almost dead.
Darklight isn't the only thing we have for tankhunting. Haywires and Scourges could be useful now.
Hellions, Reavers, and Beasts with the Baron may be our new assault units.
Yeah Hellions with be a great assault unit, wyches just got a little bit nerfed imo.
Beasts are awesome, with grenades now. Haywire wrecks tanks wholesale. And we now purchase night shields instead of flicker... Yes to mitigate vs shooting. Night fight as a possibiity in every game means that we can get the jump on things.
I think the life of the DE codex is going to hang really heavy on the FAQ. It could easily save us or kill us.
Some things we can do without any FAQ help.
1 - to help save our assault units from overwatch death, take an HQ with 2+ save. Just have him/her lead the charge thus you have the best chance of negating any incoming overwatch shooting. Heck with allies we can take 3 HQs (the eldar ones look promising as we can get some psychic defense and offense as needed)
2 - Run those raiders as fast as possible 36" move will allow you to get right into the face of the enemy. You get your jink save and if the raider does drop with a wrecked result we should live through it fairly well and get dropped into/behind cover. Should.
3 - Dark lances are still S8 so they remove FNP from most things and at AP2 still can kill termies. Not too bad for a 36" range gun.
4 - Haywires - a 10 man wych squad with haywires will kill a LR in a single turn of assault. Scourges also sound pretty tempting with safer DS mishap results and haywire blasters to go tank hunting.
5 - Archon with huskblade, soul trap, blast pistol, shadowfield will be a beast in challenges and only get better as the game moves on.
6 - The FC nerf doesn't really hurt us like it hurts other armies. We already have I5 on most things, the I6 wasn't that important unlike other guys needing the Init boost in order to strike simultaneous against us.
Yeah, DE are definitely an FAQ dependent army. Hopefully some of the amendments will save our bacon.
As is, forget assault. It seems we are now a gunnline army. Webway portals and raider rush got nerfed, wyches will die when they charge anything with a weapon heavier than a lasgun, and we have lost all access to Terminator killing melee weapons.
Jayden63 wrote:I think the life of the DE codex is going to hang really heavy on the FAQ. It could easily save us or kill us.
Some things we can do without any FAQ help.
2 - Run those raiders as fast as possible 36" move will allow you to get right into the face of the enemy. You get your jink save and if the raider does drop with a wrecked result we should live through it fairly well and get dropped into/behind cover. Should.
3 - Dark lances are still S8 so they remove FNP from most things and at AP2 still can kill termies. Not too bad for a 36" range gun.
I think Fnp works against anything , except weapons that cause Instant death(i.e huskblades)
Jayden63 wrote:I think the life of the DE codex is going to hang really heavy on the FAQ. It could easily save us or kill us.
Some things we can do without any FAQ help.
2 - Run those raiders as fast as possible 36" move will allow you to get right into the face of the enemy. You get your jink save and if the raider does drop with a wrecked result we should live through it fairly well and get dropped into/behind cover. Should.
3 - Dark lances are still S8 so they remove FNP from most things and at AP2 still can kill termies. Not too bad for a 36" range gun.
I think Fnp works against anything , except weapons that cause Instant death(i.e huskblades)
Correct me if im wrong.
Double T is instant death. Lots of T3 and T4 stuff out there that runs around with FNP. Thus S8 darklight weapons are still doing pretty good.
I personally don't think WWP lists are completely dead, it will simply be used to drop off shooty units rather than CC ones. The following points seem to buff DE (IMHO):
1. Since it seems vehicles got a big nerf we may very well see less of them. PfP tokens will be picked up earlier rather than later.
2. DE shooting tends to be nothing but Darklight weaponry and poison. There is no real reason for this to change (though the units which you choose for the job might). 2+ saves got a buff which simply means dealing with these through the application of firepower instead of agonizers and tarpits.
3. The WWP is a delivery method. Utilize it to give a nice alpha strike. You may not be able to assault but by using it to bring in the shorter ranged weapons (blasters, heat lances) you can get some big kills in without losing numbers trying to get range.
Jayden63 wrote:I think the life of the DE codex is going to hang really heavy on the FAQ. It could easily save us or kill us.
Some things we can do without any FAQ help.
2 - Run those raiders as fast as possible 36" move will allow you to get right into the face of the enemy. You get your jink save and if the raider does drop with a wrecked result we should live through it fairly well and get dropped into/behind cover. Should.
3 - Dark lances are still S8 so they remove FNP from most things and at AP2 still can kill termies. Not too bad for a 36" range gun.
I think Fnp works against anything , except weapons that cause Instant death(i.e huskblades)
Correct me if im wrong.
Double T is instant death. Lots of T3 and T4 stuff out there that runs around with FNP. Thus S8 darklight weapons are still doing pretty good.
When I mean instant death, I mean weapons that say they cause instant death. Not str double the toughness instant death.
Jayden63 wrote:I think the life of the DE codex is going to hang really heavy on the FAQ. It could easily save us or kill us.
Some things we can do without any FAQ help.
2 - Run those raiders as fast as possible 36" move will allow you to get right into the face of the enemy. You get your jink save and if the raider does drop with a wrecked result we should live through it fairly well and get dropped into/behind cover. Should.
3 - Dark lances are still S8 so they remove FNP from most things and at AP2 still can kill termies. Not too bad for a 36" range gun.
I think Fnp works against anything , except weapons that cause Instant death(i.e huskblades)
Correct me if im wrong.
Double T is instant death. Lots of T3 and T4 stuff out there that runs around with FNP. Thus S8 darklight weapons are still doing pretty good.
When I mean instant death, I mean weapons that say they cause instant death. Not str double the toughness instant death.
Right, so in melee we only have one weapon that at the moment can remove FNP, the huskblade. And the only S8 melee attacks we can get come from an activated sole trap or from a charging talos or Chronos engine (with pain token). However we have crap loads of S8 shooting which is enough to remove FNP from most models and the fact that its AP2 leaves only invunlerables and cover saves possible to save someones bacon.
As for myself unless the agonizer gets made AP2 and unless wyches/bloodbrides/succubus get their dodge save against overwatch fire. My current Succubus HQ just got a promotion to Archon. I guess her latest scheme worked out well.
I also agree that the FAQ/Errata will make or break Dark Eldar fundamentals.
Disembark was a bit of a blow, but on another thread where someone did some mathhammer it showed that the effective assault range was only nerfed marginally. The way I see it is Raiders will have to act intermittently; moving as far as possible one turn (Flat out + Aethersails) and then drop Wyches with smart positioning next turn. I don't know about you guys but I'm going 6" off the prow everytime (yeah TFG I know).
Overwatch is dangerous and there's no way in hell GW will give us dodge in an errata. The IC idea mentioned above would work, another idea would be to suckerpunch the unit with something else first (I have a feeling I will be using fast attack choices a lot more) witch would expend the Overwatch.
PW rules IMO were the biggest blow. I'm really going to be furious if they omit AP2 from Klaives, Huskblades and IC weapons. I'm not feeling good about Agonizers :( but surely they can't justify the double point cost just for '+1 str'....
ATM I'm experimenting with a few lists and incorporating some Eldar units. But I won't know for sure until they release Errata.
I heard totally unsubstantiated rumors relentless might give rapid fire an extra shot, (heresy online I think it was).
Additionally I've read they get 4+ cover save for just moving now, and a 3+ while boosting (aparently jet bikes get a 5+ cover just for moving and skilled rider bumps it up by one or some such)
CorvidMP wrote:I heard totally unsubstantiated rumors relentless might give rapid fire an extra shot, (heresy online I think it was).
Additionally I've read they get 4+ cover save for just moving now, and a 3+ while boosting (aparently jet bikes get a 5+ cover just for moving and skilled rider bumps it up by one or some such)
I have the rulebook. Listen to me
Bikes and Jetbikes have Jink, which gives them a 5+ just for moving. Turboboosting in the Shooting phase will improve it to a 4+ They also have the Hammer of Wrath rule.
FAQ is out. Agonizers are not mentioned so must be AP3. Same for Vect's scepter.
No helping hand on wyches.
Joined demiklaives as AP 2 was a nice step, but maybe not enough.
So now DE no longer get to hop over terrain on a skimmer to assault what is on the other side. In a way, it's become a very slow army, as now in terrain-dense tables they have to fly around stuff if they want to assault.
Night Vision helps shooting...but shooting didn't need much help.
So yeah, they are rewarding the crap out of blasterborn venomspam, perhaps with Hellions if you want to fool around with melee.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah, Our offensive has gotten better, But what good does it do us if we cant last one turn:( Fnp has gotten slightly better, not enough to make a difference. I may have to use drazhar, his 2+ save will be awesome now
I don't think your skimmers are in any worse shape than before. HPs really don't make a big difference for an AV10 Open topped vehicle. Raiders have 3 HPs and Venoms have 2. If anything, it may make them a tad more survivable, since they won't get blown up from a Glancing hit anymore, unless it's lost all of it's hullpoints.
Raiders are 1/2 as resilient as they were before, while venoms are 1/3 as resilient.
Lack of AP2 CCW doesn't really make a HUGE difference, just take disintegraters ( they're damn good, underrated in 5th and even better in 6th what with glances removing hull points. )
The main issue I have is no more than 50% of the army in reserve, no assaulting out of reserve.
This is a severe kick in the teeth, especially being we finally get the ability to modify reserve rolls ( Autarch ally and/or Comms Relay on fortifications. )
At this point I'm sorely tempted to shelve the webway portals and additional Grotesques I've been working on for the last several months for a wwp list and figure out a different alternate list.
Of course that means the Autarch etc I bought once the allies rules were confirmed become a waste of money... Never thought the reserves rules would change much, certainly not this much.
I know how 4th edition eldar feel. You used to be a really fast army, and then a new edition comes along and makes you the same speed as everyone else.
DE just don't feel like a fast army anymore. Its a 'slow' as everyone else now.
Don't worry though guys, we've already had a year, so we only have 13 more to go before we get a new book.
Sephyr wrote:YWith DE, it's borked for a decade now. Type "Dark Eldar Army" on eBay now if you want to lauch...or cry.
-- People are not dumping their DE armies yet, if that's your mistaken impression. The only cheap DE armies are still the ones with old models.
-- I do feel a bit bent over the table so far with my Dark Eldar, but Allies soften the blow and it doesn't appear that my particularly army lists got too boned (I already used lots of haywire and beasts).
I must say I was worried about FNP being reduced to a 5+....However with the boon that is now no longer negated by anything other than instant death, my grotesques have gained a huge leap in suvivability I feel. Combined with Urien and his clone field, the ability to challenge and to have people attack him whether they want to or not, plus no penalty to being fearless (Thankyouthankyouthankyou); I am feeling quite happy.
I am disappointed by the Talos being able to be wounded by S3, but when they most often died to lascannons it didn't come up much, and now killing tanks with them will be a dawdle (even without the 2d6).
Since I played a relatively slow army (coven) anyway, with the potential 12" charge now, I'm doing slightly better. And I can still enact my plan of Raider/Grot bombs.
Edit:
Hmmmmmm, I am pondering over having some eldar Warlocks join my grotesques, I think it's actually making my mouth water.
lord_bobbington wrote:I must say I was worried about FNP being reduced to a 5+....However with the boon that is now no longer negated by anything other than instant death, my grotesques have gained a huge leap in suvivability I feel. Combined with Urien and his clone field, the ability to challenge and to have people attack him whether they want to or not, plus no penalty to being fearless (Thankyouthankyouthankyou); I am feeling quite happy.
I am disappointed by the Talos being able to be wounded by S3, but when they most often died to lascannons it didn't come up much, and now killing tanks with them will be a dawdle.
Since I played a relatively slow army (coven) anyway, with the potential 12" charge now, I'm doing slightly better. And I can still enact my plan of Raider/Grot bombs.
The Talos can't be wounded by Str 3. It's still T7, and Str 3 can still only wound T5/6
lord_bobbington wrote:I must say I was worried about FNP being reduced to a 5+....However with the boon that is now no longer negated by anything other than instant death, my grotesques have gained a huge leap in suvivability I feel. Combined with Urien and his clone field, the ability to challenge and to have people attack him whether they want to or not, plus no penalty to being fearless (Thankyouthankyouthankyou); I am feeling quite happy.
I am disappointed by the Talos being able to be wounded by S3, but when they most often died to lascannons it didn't come up much, and now killing tanks with them will be a dawdle.
Since I played a relatively slow army (coven) anyway, with the potential 12" charge now, I'm doing slightly better. And I can still enact my plan of Raider/Grot bombs.
The Talos can't be wounded by Str 3.
It's still T7, and Str 3 can still only wound T5/6
Oooh goody, well that is good, I am happy to have misread that
drakkenj wrote:Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing got a ton better. That's an upside. And by strong, I mean, light you up strong.
Talk about a fun list:
Razowing Jetfighter x 6
Everything else....
Hello, 24 missiles.....
They lose Aerial Assault, and cannot hover (so must move a minimum of 18" a turn) so can only fire 4 weapons at full BS a turn ( remainder at BS1 )
So they can fire the 4 missiles at full BS then snapshot the rest.
Just so you know...
drakkenj wrote:Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing got a ton better. That's an upside. And by strong, I mean, light you up strong.
Talk about a fun list:
Razowing Jetfighter x 6
Everything else....
Hello, 24 missiles.....
They lose Aerial Assault, and cannot hover (so must move a minimum of 18" a turn) so can only fire 4 weapons at full BS a turn ( remainder at BS1 )
So they can fire the 4 missiles at full BS then snapshot the rest.
Just so you know...
Yep, you fire 4x Missiles and 2x Lances in Snap Shot. Next turn you've only got 2x lances anyway. And you're moving 18" or 36".
Or you could 2x Lances, 2x Missiles, and save the rest for another turn. Still a devastating amount of firepower that you can drop on the battlefield. If each jet drops 2x missiles or 4x missiles.
Since the stock missiles are pie plates anyway, I'd use the full BS on the two lances and two missiles and then snap the last two missiles. This is even more true if you have changed out the lances for disintegrators.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My personal list hasn't really changed much. At 1400 points I only had 1 unit of wyches as a counter assault unit anyway. Now, to bring up the points its going to be a unit of Incubi with Klaivex w/demiklaves and Drazhar
Who else is thinking that the default Haemi in 5th ed wych squads will be doing a lot of solo charges to absorb Overwatch in 6th? That way the wyches can get in unscathed? (Leaving pain token with the wyches of course)
Does anyone think that will work ? In movement phase get 2.1 inches away from your unit with haemi. Then in assault haemi goes in first and alone.. enemy unit either overwatches him down or waits and hopes haemi does not make it in.
That will all depend if you get to pick and choose which unit overwatch fires onto. If they have to fire into the first unit that charges then sending in the sacrifical lamb should work.You could also just keep the hami in the unit but out front. As he has two wounds, he should be able to absorb most of the incoming fire. It also wont matter that the hami doesn't have fleet too much anymore, since fleet doesn't do much of anything anyway. Reroll is nice, but if you start close enough, it wont matter that much.
Archon with huskblade, soul trap, blast pistol, shadowfield will be a beast in challenges and only get better as the game moves on.
but huskblades are AP3, and everyone is going to be giving their chars 2+ saves
Automatically Appended Next Post:
acsmedic wrote:Who else is thinking that the default Haemi in 5th ed wych squads will be doing a lot of solo charges to absorb Overwatch in 6th? That way the wyches can get in unscathed? (Leaving pain token with the wyches of course)
Does anyone think that will work ? In movement phase get 2.1 inches away from your unit with haemi. Then in assault haemi goes in first and alone.. enemy unit either overwatches him down or waits and hopes haemi does not make it in.
Viable tactic? Poke holes.... GO
sounds good actually
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jayden63 wrote:
My personal list hasn't really changed much. At 1400 points I only had 1 unit of wyches as a counter assault unit anyway. Now, to bring up the points its going to be a unit of Incubi with Klaivex w/demiklaves and Drazhar
Drazhar is a BEAAST now. I am still not sure if he can challenge, and then get out of the challenge but it sounds like it. He can dance around powerfists and axes or just murder them.
First of all DE vehicles got better... not worse, unless loosing our last hull point a glance cant kill us.
Night fighting will come into effect more often.
We can ally with eldar meaning we have access to one of the best psyker shut downs in the game.
If you want your wyches to avoid overwatch, declare a charge with a tougher unit like wracks(or grotesques) first, the charged unit has to fire at them(even if they are like 12" away and the wyches are like 6" away) , then charge in with the wyches.
FNP is worse, but better against PW and other things that used to ignore it.
If you are worried about turn 1, take a skyshield, 4+ invul save while on the pad, hmmm I wonder how many raiders I can fit onto it.
Razorwings are still good, and the bomber makes sense now.
As I said before, beasts are really good. Also anything with multiple shots is as well, scourge, and hellions, they have lots of shots on the move and lots of shots on the charge.
One of the -biggest- changes to the game is that units can regroup if at 25%... (if less then only on snake eyes)
- there is no longer a restriction for nearby enemy!
- units with an independent character always regroup at their base LD
this is hugely important, because of our high initiative we can more then likely break from an assault safely and as we run we are still a threat to the enemy, no longer will a depleted unit be useless. To make the most of this you can build your units in multiples of 4 to take advantage.
Anyhow, I could go, on and on and on. But I am very optimistic about the power of DE in the new edition.
Archon with huskblade, soul trap, blast pistol, shadowfield will be a beast in challenges and only get better as the game moves on.
but huskblades are AP3, and everyone is going to be giving their chars 2+ saves
/quote]
Yeah, but anyone can roll a 1. And since my 2++ above is invunerable it will be a race to see who rolls a one first.
I had another thought. Modeling for advantage. Succubus, Heckitrix can take a power weapon as a weapon upgrade. If you model it to look like an axe, why could you not call it a power axe. I don't see anything stopping this. Thus gaining +1 Str (effectively the same as an agonizer against T4 and since we seem to be mostly concerned about termis here, its a wash), AP 2 which is what everyone is clamoring about, but gain unwieldly. So yeah, the model is striking at the same time as the terminator. But at least you are damaging them and leaving them with the Inv. to save their butts.
Iago wrote:Beasts are awesome, with grenades now. And we now purchase night shields instead of flicker
Beasts are indeed awesome. THey dont have grenades but the baron can keep up with them now and he has a PGL.
PGLs are good, they give defensive grenades which now gives you stealth if within 8" of the shooting unit. The baron already has stealth, but i wonder if that will give you +2?
I already took night shields so now I am losing the flicker field.
now sure how the nightfigting rules work with the 5+ jink save, but can it become 4+ or 3+ depending on distance? or is it always 5+ and thus having stealth makes no difference.
Venoms, already nerfed by the 2 hull points, have to pay for their flicker fields stock.
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Jayden63 wrote:
I had another thought. Modeling for advantage. Succubus, Heckitrix can take a power weapon as a weapon upgrade. If you model it to look like an axe, why could you not call it a power axe. I don't see anything stopping this. Thus gaining +1 Str (effectively the same as an agonizer against T4 and since we seem to be mostly concerned about termis here, its a wash), AP 2 which is what everyone is clamoring about, but gain unwieldly. So yeah, the model is striking at the same time as the terminator. But at least you are damaging them and leaving them with the Inv. to save their butts.
Thats not modeling for advantage, you are supposed to do that. You are supposed to go out and buy a bunch of axes to convert all your old models. I already have 2, with "halberds."
Automatically Appended Next Post: The flyers obviously got much much better. The razorwing is now an almost autotake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I havent seen this mentioned, but the strength of the hit caused by "Vehicle Explodes" went from 3 to 4 for open topped vehciles. That is a nerf for DE as we will now lose 33% more models to explosions, and with the FNP nerf almost double
First of all DE vehicles got better... not worse, unless loosing our last hull point a glance cant kill us.
Raiders are exactly 1/2 as resilient as they were, venoms are 1/3 as resilient. Str4 hits don't need to roll 2 6's in a row.
Night fighting will come into effect more often.
We can ally with eldar meaning we have access to one of the best psyker shut downs in the game.
If you want your wyches to avoid overwatch, declare a charge with a tougher unit like wracks(or grotesques) first, the charged unit has to fire at them(even if they are like 12" away and the wyches are like 6" away) , then charge in with the wyches.
FNP is worse, but better against PW and other things that used to ignore it.
If you are worried about turn 1, take a skyshield, 4+ invul save while on the pad, hmmm I wonder how many raiders I can fit onto it.
I would say between 6 and 8 if you really pack it in, but frankly I'd rather take the fortress for them to outright hide behind, no Line of Sight = no shots at them.
Razorwings are still good, and the bomber makes sense now.
As I said before, beasts are really good. Also anything with multiple shots is as well, scourge, and hellions, they have lots of shots on the move and lots of shots on the charge.
One of the -biggest- changes to the game is that units can regroup if at 25%... (if less then only on snake eyes)
- there is no longer a restriction for nearby enemy!
- units with an independent character always regroup at their base LD
this is hugely important, because of our high initiative we can more then likely break from an assault safely and as we run we are still a threat to the enemy, no longer will a depleted unit be useless. To make the most of this you can build your units in multiples of 4 to take advantage.
Anyhow, I could go, on and on and on. But I am very optimistic about the power of DE in the new edition.
The main problems for me are that you can't assault out of reserves and you can't put more than 50% of the army into reserve. They could have fixed it by allowing you to assault out of the Webway, but you can't, meaning everyone with wwp lists has put a reasonable amount of money and time into their army now has a force that can't really work, as you can't put the same number of units into reserve and when you do come in out of reserve, your units get to wait around for a turn and get shot at while the enemy moves away from your assaulty troops.
So basically, anyone with a shooty list is fine, anyone with anything with a bit more flavour has taken something of a hit, and anyone running a Webway Portal Army needs to remake their list(s) from the ground up.
To be honest, I haven't had a problem with anything else about 6th so far, and to be fair, if you could assault out of the webway (and bring battle brother allies through it... but hey) then I'd be fine, but as it is - a lot of time and money (webway portals, additional grotesques and wracks) are now pretty unusable.
Ovion wrote:
The main problems for me are that you can't assault out of reserves and you can't put more than 50% of the army into reserve. They could have fixed it by allowing you to assault out of the Webway, but you can't, meaning everyone with wwp lists has put a reasonable amount of money and time into their army now has a force that can't really work, as you can't put the same number of units into reserve and when you do come in out of reserve, your units get to wait around for a turn and get shot at while the enemy moves away from your assaulty troops.
So basically, anyone with a shooty list is fine, anyone with anything with a bit more flavour has taken something of a hit, and anyone running a Webway Portal Army needs to remake their list(s) from the ground up.
To be honest, I haven't had a problem with anything else about 6th so far, and to be fair, if you could assault out of the webway (and bring battle brother allies through it... but hey) then I'd be fine, but as it is - a lot of time and money (webway portals, additional grotesques and wracks) are now pretty unusable.
This. As pissed as I am with the treatment DE got, it's doubly maddening just how easy it would have been to make them work without being overpowered.
1-) Give some sargeant-equivalents the option of a fast AP2 weapon. Other armies have the toughness and the saves to last in combat. Dark Eldar need to have a strong fast punch to think out the enemy or they -will- get pulped right afterward. If the Agonizer was AP 2 and normal (hell, even HALF) initiative, I'd be plenty happy. But no, Space Marine captains felt want to put on a 2+ armor and smack xenos around without fear of ever losing their saves, so there we go. When you remember that Space Marines all but swim in 4+ and 3+ invulnerable saves, it gets extra funny.
2-) The webway portal nerf makes no damn sense. DE are fast enough; if they're not going to get the assaut, they are better off zooming around the table. We don't even have that many shooty units that benefit that much from popping up close to their front-lines: even the Talos and Chronos are stronger in assault than in shooting and portals were one of the ways to make them feasible instead of vaped by lascannons as they trudged along the board.
3-) It just dawned on me that Archons, Succubi, Vext, Haemonculi and many other CC 'monsters' truly have no recourse against 2+ armor.
Which codexes can spam 2+ saves like there's no tomorrow?
Which codexes are the only ones in the game with thunderhammers, chain fists et al..
SM
Riddle answered. Gods forbid that the SM would have to strain themselves or risk injury.
I'll still play my DE, but those 2+ saves are going to be a pain.
DE went from being a decent fast assualt army to a mediocre shooting army.
the proble\m is not the 2+ save squads its the 3+ squads with 2+ saves in them. Every SW grey hunter squad is now going to have a wolfguard in terminator armor in it. It will be worthless to have a power sword or agonizer in your squad of wyches because the wolf guard will simply challenge you, either you use your 40+ point seargent to attack uselessly against 2+ armor or you simply dont fight. Artificer armor and Chaos armor are going to be similarly problematic. And Necrons, who are supposed to be a slow race, get war scythes at full init?
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Tyrs13 wrote:Note Beasts dont need Granades ... they flat out ignore Terrain.
You have some pretty strong allies.
they ignore terrain, but if any model passed through terrain they strike at i1, even if they ignored that terrain.
DE have only one ally that is not a grudging strained allience, eldar.
Exergy wrote:And Necrons, who are supposed to be a slow race, get war scythes at full init?
To be fair, it is at I2.
However, like always, GW sells models not a game. They already had a great success over that past few months with the DE reboot. They don't need the players anymore until another decade passes and they can "reboot" them again. That's the cycle. Buff one army until it's really good, nerf it in order to force people to buy another army. Rinse wash repeat. They tread a narrow line of alienating players enough to switch armies, but not enough to quit the game. It seems like they might have stumbled. Time will tell if they fall.
Who sells more? Marines do. Who gets the better toys? Marines do. Who is easier to play? Marines are. Return to start of loop.
Welcome to 6th Edition 40k aka MEq/TerminatorHammer.
Finally, I'd like to add that despite all my anti-GW rhetoric, I am still willingly buying their products and thus encouraging this behaviour. It's just a game and like any other there's always going to be a meta that updates every so often.
CorvidMP wrote:I heard totally unsubstantiated rumors relentless might give rapid fire an extra shot, (heresy online I think it was).
Additionally I've read they get 4+ cover save for just moving now, and a 3+ while boosting (aparently jet bikes get a 5+ cover just for moving and skilled rider bumps it up by one or some such)
I have the rulebook. Listen to me
Bikes and Jetbikes have Jink, which gives them a 5+ just for moving. Turboboosting in the Shooting phase will improve it to a 4+ They also have the Hammer of Wrath rule.
DE Reavers get +5 Jink... it's since they're skilled riders, it's a really a +4 Jink and they can ignore dangerous terrain to boot!
I still don't understand the jetbike's assualt move... is it 2d6 to charge? Or 2d6 move elsewhere during assault phase?
If people want to bring a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor in every squad, be my guest, because they wont be in rhinos, therefore, I'll just blast them away.
Honestly, I'm not worried, no 4+ cover is fine for me, because we get a free 5+ cover, so Night Fields are my new taker.
Wyches, couldn't you just model the Hekatrix with a Power Axe? Or is that illegal? Along with that, having a 4+ and then FNP even at a 5+ is fine with me. Sure overwatch hurts, but that makes it more of a challenge, which is what I think 40K should be, not just *Point, Charge, Kill, Consolidate*.
Honestly, until I play a few games, I'm not going to get caught up in the "OMG DE Are so debuffed" Mood.
I really think people are blowing the overwatch against Wyches way out of proportion. With FNP you MAY lose a base or two against most opponents (which would be particularly shooty opponents that you should be handling in assault quite well anyway), and as others have mentioned you could certainly stick the Haeemie up front to eat those wounds for you. IIRCICs don't bleed victory points anymore. Also, torrent of attacks is now one of the most legitemate ways to clear out Terms (in CC), Wyches have a clear roll here, and Haywire should be an auto include for the girls.
Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.
FNP change is a pretty big buff for Talos/Chronos (as is the cover save changes), as you now get something against the weapons that you feared the most (lazzies, Missles, Lances, etc).
The WWP change makes me a sad panda as well. I still think it's a good delivery system for the MCs, as well as scourges/mandrakes (who can always choose outflank instead), and its not the end of the world for Grots/Wracks coming out of it either, it's still a scatter free DS to get into the opponents grill. But still, no assault is quite a bit disappointing. You just can't base your list around it anymore, but you can still use it as a nasty surprise for a handful of units, and potentially save those units from several turns of shooting. Also, Mandrakes/Haemie becomes an interesting WWP deployment option.
As Exergy has been saying Drazhar is a strait up BEAST. All the IC's are little better (2+ save headaches aside) but Drazhar is nasty.
Reposting my post on /tg/ for all of you guys.
------------------------------------------------------------
People complaining about DE. Hear me!
The new premier assault unit is the beast pack.
Why you ask? Well because it has high wound models and you can even use the Clawed Fiend rule to take wounds and thereby improve its A characteristic by each wound it take.
>"But what about all the wyches I bought? They are worthless now."
Not so fair anon. Your beast pack will be multi assaulting the enemy to take their ovewatch fire before your wyches close to engage. FNP got a nerf and a buff, wyches can still tar pit enemies, particularly dedicated CC enemies that cannot overwatch them.
Wyches and Vehicles:Their haywire grenades are now 8 inch ranged and are now GODLY against all vehicles.
>"We can't capture with guys inside a vehicle on last turn anymore/We can't contest with vehicles anymore."
Well anon you need to invest in Kabal warriors or better yet Eldar allies! Stick some pathfinders in cover next to an obj, they will be hard to shift and you now have snipers! On a 6 they are AP1 and can choose their targets! For maximum trolling snipe guys to break the coherency of Heavy weapon troopers. You not only killed a powerful weapon but now they have to move and can only Snap Shot!
Now you can snipe out those pesky heavy weapons from a devestator squad while making sure you can cap an obj.
>"But vehicles are nerfed, our raiders will be glanced to death!"
Yes and no. Now when you flat out you get 4+ which is decent but more importantly if it is night (50% chance 1st turn and 50% chance on 5th turn and after, if triggered, permanent) you can move up to the 13 inch sweet spot in front of the enemy. you get a +1 to that making it a 3+ cover save if they sit and shoot. If they approach (making it easier for you to charge them with wyches next turn) then you still get a 4+.
Ravagers can sit at the 24-36 sweet spot and get 2+ from shrouded every turn. If they move between 1 and 12 inches each turn they get the 5+ jink cover save plus this 2+ to give them a 3+ cover save while still being able to fire ALL their dark lances.
Venoms with blaster born! Move six, deploy six and shoot 18. thats an effective 30 inch range. If you enemy deploys within 6 of the edge of the deployment zone that is close to you, then you have a fair chance of shooting them. Otherwise, FLAT OUT shenanigans and then shoot them to gak. Venoms also sit in the 24-36 sweet spot for 3+ save while shooting their splinter cannons.
>"Yes but that means we need alpha strike or night fighting, those are not guarenteed!"
True anon but get this. Baron Sathonyx instead of giving a +1 to deployment gives a +1 to the 'who goes first turn' roll. HOLY gak THAT IS AWESOME. Stick him with the beasts to confer his "stealth" special rule to that massive assault unit. Take advantage of cover while crossing the board with the beasts for maximum win!
Make him your warlord and pick you 'warlord table'. I will personally be going for strategic for that 16% chance to force night-fighting regardless.
>"But we have no pyskers!'
bs! We can take eldar psykers now, throw on some fortune, guide and warding runes and he is pretty kick ass.
Also, FWIW, Flicker Fields will still help against assault,templates, and turns you don't move (for what ever reason that might be), and keep in mind CC is a much bigger threat to vehicles then before, so FF still have a roll to play Space Drow Friends.
Absolutely, the days of drive bys with liquifiers while the enemy had to roll 6's to hit are gone. Don't go throwing those FF saves away for Night Shields just yet guys!
I may however switch out my FF's for NS on ravagers as I will almost always trying to stay very far away with them.
I too see no reason for Ravagers or either of the fliers to take FF. Those guys should be playing the range game now, as such Night shields look to be very tempting.
Venoms are stuck with FF and the built in cost. Not much you can do about that, meh. Still a fun shooting platform.
I think raiders might want to stick with them though. As it will now be more important than ever to get that first turn boost and get right into the guys face so that the assault unit inside it has a better chance of getting the charge off.
What role is that one ravager playing? and if it is a vital role you need to make sure there is a redundancy... which means switching more ravagers to desintigrator cannons. Thus hurting your darklight spam.
ShadarLogoth wrote:Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.
This is VERY wrong and Mandrakes are still ass. ICs without infiltrate cannot join a squad WITH infiltrate during deployment.
ShadarLogoth wrote:Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.
This is VERY wrong and Mandrakes are still ass.
ICs without infiltrate cannot join a squad WITH infiltrate during deployment.
Spoiler:
I thought I saw that somewhere, I was looking under outflank though lol.
revackey wrote:If people want to bring a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor in every squad, be my guest, because they wont be in rhinos, therefore, I'll just blast them away.
they can also give them runic armor, which is like artificer armor
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DaKKaLAnce wrote:Well I guess a basic attack would depend on which ap he use during that sub-phase. Sounds about right too me.
does he use his weapons for his special attacks back? I thought they were str4 ap-
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DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think necrons will be great allies to have.
too bad Necrons are, along with Nids, DA and BA, the only allies DE cannot have.
Jayden63 wrote:Since the stock missiles are pie plates anyway, I'd use the full BS on the two lances and two missiles and then snap the last two missiles. This is even more true if you have changed out the lances for disintegrators.
The Good * Reaver Jetbikes got a lot better. They are much more manuverable than before.
* Talos pain engine got better with changes to MCs. Namely fear and hammer
* Voidraven bombers are extremely good. Only hit on a 6 from shooting, and a 5+ flickerfield save is extremely nice!
* AV 10 open topped vehicles are slightly better. 3 glancing hits still destroyed it on average, so at least they can still move and shoot after being glanced.
* Changes to rapid fire make warriors better. You can now move and shoot 24", making more poisoned shots hit the table.
* Harlequins got much better. Shroud and Stealth gives 2+ cover in woods.
* FNP changes make wracks slightly tougher -- being able to FNPPWs and PGs.
* Beast packs are still very good, and very affordable for what they do.
The Bad * Assaulting from raiders got worse. You can only move 6", exit, then assault.
* Overwatch makes assaulting with wytches harder now -- though not impossible. A bolter snap shot only has a 1/9 chance of killing a wytch without FNP.
* Wolf guard terminators will be a problem -- though most SW players don't bring them as they cannot fit in most transports. You might also run across runic armor SWs, which can be in transports.
* You can no longer reserve your entire army. You will need to have a squad or two on the foot at the start of the game. Allied pathfinders or DE warriors will do the trick since your 3 flyers won't count to this.
* For 50 points you can bring an aegis defensive line to stick your warriors/pathfinders behind. This helps to keep them alive until your reserves arrive.
The Ally * Ally with Eldar to gain access to Eldrad -- one of the best force multipliers in the game.
* Ally with Eldar to gain fire dragons -- excellent AV 14 crackers
* Ally with Eldar to gain pathfinders, excellent at sniping PFs or special weapons.
Ovion wrote:You'll have to deploy more than a squad or two.
Unless you only want to reserve a squad or two.
I'm toying with some sort of shooty webway list... maybe some waveserpents as back up? iunno.
Here are my thoughts. Bring 2 squads of warriors and 2 squads of pathfinders. If your ally is eldar, then take a farseer to dual guide/fortune them. Put them all behind an aegis defense line to protect them.
If you take 3 flyers, that lets you reserve 5 other types of transports. I'm not sure the point costs of that army right now, but that should get you close to what you are looking for.
How to take down flying MC's with a 3 ravager list and no skyfire weapons
Venom fires dual splinter cannons. 12 shots. 2 hits average on 6's. Forces grounded check 3+ they pass, otherwise they slam into the ground. 4+ for poison so one wound.
Once you have them on the ground, hit with darklight or more splinter fire until they die.
How to take down flyers with a 3 ravager list and no skyfire weapons
...Darklight spam... Thats all I can think of atm. Good thing is we generally have a lot of them.
Target Priority is probably going to be other targets of opportunity but it depends.
Exergy wrote:And Necrons, who are supposed to be a slow race, get war scythes at full init?
To be fair, it is at I2.
It's still going before power fists and thunder hammers, which is the point. Incubi 'sargeants' also get demiklaives that can get AP2 at regular Initiative. AS THEY SHOULD.
I understand the mechanics of not having every single power weapon out there cleave through temris. But special weapons only sargeants/HQs can take should be AP 2 at regular Ini if they have no other 'strong' rule, such as wounding on 2+, extra pen dice and whatnot.
Ovion wrote:You'll have to deploy more than a squad or two.
Unless you only want to reserve a squad or two.
I'm toying with some sort of shooty webway list... maybe some waveserpents as back up? iunno.
Here are my thoughts. Bring 2 squads of warriors and 2 squads of pathfinders. If your ally is eldar, then take a farseer to dual guide/fortune them. Put them all behind an aegis defense line to protect them.
If you take 3 flyers, that lets you reserve 5 other types of transports. I'm not sure the point costs of that army right now, but that should get you close to what you are looking for.
Units that HAVE to be put in reserve like flyers are not counted towards the units you can put in reserve.
So 3 Flyers and 5 other units means you can only put 3 into reserve.
revackey wrote:If people want to bring a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor in every squad, be my guest, because they wont be in rhinos, therefore, I'll just blast them away.
they can also give them runic armor, which is like artificer armor
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DaKKaLAnce wrote:Well I guess a basic attack would depend on which ap he use during that sub-phase. Sounds about right too me.
does he use his weapons for his special attacks back? I thought they were str4 ap-
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DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think necrons will be great allies to have.
too bad Necrons are, along with Nids, DA and BA, the only allies DE cannot have.
It just says he gets a bonus attack at basic str of 4.
Jayden63 wrote:Since the stock missiles are pie plates anyway, I'd use the full BS on the two lances and two missiles and then snap the last two missiles. This is even more true if you have changed out the lances for disintegrators.
You can't snap-fire blast / template weapons.
Also you can only fire two missiles in any given turn.
Malt wrote:... more importantly if it is night (50% chance every turn, if triggered, permanent)....
Night Fight doesn't work that way.
There is a 50% chance on first turn only.
If not first turn then maybe on Turns 5+
From what I recall (and will go check and correct if wrong in a minute) On a roll of 4+, you get night fight turn 1. Then at the start of each subsequent turn, on a roll of a 4+ it goes away and you don't need to roll for it again.
ShadarLogoth wrote:I really think people are blowing the overwatch against Wyches way out of proportion. With FNP you MAY lose a base or two against most opponents (which would be particularly shooty opponents that you should be handling in assault quite well anyway), and as others have mentioned you could certainly stick the Haeemie up front to eat those wounds for you. IIRCICs don't bleed victory points anymore. Also, torrent of attacks is now one of the most legitemate ways to clear out Terms (in CC), Wyches have a clear roll here, and Haywire should be an auto include for the girls.
Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.
FNP change is a pretty big buff for Talos/Chronos (as is the cover save changes), as you now get something against the weapons that you feared the most (lazzies, Missles, Lances, etc).
The WWP change makes me a sad panda as well. I still think it's a good delivery system for the MCs, as well as scourges/mandrakes (who can always choose outflank instead), and its not the end of the world for Grots/Wracks coming out of it either, it's still a scatter free DS to get into the opponents grill. But still, no assault is quite a bit disappointing. You just can't base your list around it anymore, but you can still use it as a nasty surprise for a handful of units, and potentially save those units from several turns of shooting. Also, Mandrakes/Haemie becomes an interesting WWP deployment option.
As Exergy has been saying Drazhar is a strait up BEAST. All the IC's are little better (2+ save headaches aside) but Drazhar is nasty.
"IIRCICs don't bleed victory points anymore."
Wrong. IC's and transports are still worth victory points. However, kill points is only the major focus in one of the 6 missions.
Wyches got nerfed in at least four ways, to the point where only a very stupid general will take them in his army.
If you disagree, feel free to try and charge a squad of wyches into assault with anything, let me know how that goes for ya once their overwatch is done eating away half your models.
Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting.
Anyone who thinks Jink is a free flickerfield is free to tell me if he still thinks that that to my face after he lost his roll to go first against any army with even halfway reasonable long-range shooting. Remember, you can't full-reserve anymore! Have fun with that.
What happened to webways is clearly visible to all: They're laughably inept, and they never were a great option for Dark Eldar to begin with.
But hey, at least darklight spam got a bit better. If that's the DE playstyle you favor, you're good to go. Grab allied Eldrad, some dire avengers for anti-infantry, and rock on.
It was never what I saw in the army, though, and as far as I can see every single other way of playing Dark Eldar is just no longer feasible. I'm not exactly surprised, Dark Eldar lived in a very perilous area in 5e and our loss of even remotely worthwhile assault power in 6e is just...collateral damage to ensure Space Marines don't have to feel so afraid of normal power weapons. Even so, I remain saddened.
But hey, all is not lost! Imperial Guard won't bring Hydras anymore because someone at GW decided not to bother with giving them Interceptor when they errata'd in Skyfire. While they still tear asunder those fast skimmers like nobody's business, they can't do crud against ground targets, so don't expect anybody with a brain to field them outside of tailored lists.
In my opinion, Haywyches are going to replace Blasterborn squads, as Haywire grenades are actually more reliable than Blasters now. Just assault that shiny tank or maybe even walker, outside of it's range if you're that paranoid about overwatch. But if you're within range, you'll do more damage them, because how often will a blaster remove a hull point? Because haywire will take them off 5/6 of the time, on everything from a land raider to a raider.
Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:In my opinion, Haywyches are going to replace Blasterborn squads, as Haywire grenades are actually more reliable than Blasters now. Just assault that shiny tank or maybe even walker, outside of it's range if you're that paranoid about overwatch. But if you're within range, you'll do more damage them, because how often will a blaster remove a hull point? Because haywire will take them off 5/6 of the time, on everything from a land raider to a raider.
Haywires are very reliable to removing hull points and Wyches are one of the best units to deliver them.
Not happy about not being able to assault out of WWP's. As someone who had a really fun WWP list, it burns. Not entirely sure how I'm going to get the Cronos and Talos into the list effectively.
It's possible the WWP nerf isn't as severe as I thought, though.
That said, I'm suddenly up in the air on Haywire blasters, or rather how to field them. I took them because they were fantastic suppression. Now they are less about suppression, and more about actual killing.
Will have to do some actual play testing to see how it all works @_@
mynamelegend wrote:Wyches got nerfed in at least four ways, to the point where only a very stupid general will take them in his army.
If you disagree, feel free to try and charge a squad of wyches into assault with anything, let me know how that goes for ya once their overwatch is done eating away half your models.
Right cause BS1 shooting is scary... yes you will loose models even after the 5+ FNP but its no means the end of the world. You can shoot before you go in including throwing a grenade and still get the fleet boost. Challenge the SM sarge with the agoniser hekatrix and things look ok. Besides, wyches were never about taking out targets in combat - they were about tarpitting them.
mynamelegend wrote:Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting.
That comes down to your model placment as much as the enemies shooting... plus shooting by unit is till done togther.. its not like he magic up more guns from the same unit after you save (unless i missed something in my first read through)
mynamelegend wrote:Anyone who thinks Jink is a free flickerfield is free to tell me if he still thinks that that to my face after he lost his roll to go first against any army with even halfway reasonable long-range shooting. Remember, you can't full-reserve anymore! Have fun with that.
On this we agree - FF still have a place, especially as they affect combat and dangerous terrain.
mynamelegend wrote:What happened to webways is clearly visible to all: They're laughably inept, and they never were a great option for Dark Eldar to begin with.
They become a shooty deployment over a combt one now. A stupid change but like you said, the WWP was never the bee's knee's anyway.
mynamelegend wrote:But hey, at least darklight spam got a bit better. If that's the DE playstyle you favor, you're good to go. Grab allied Eldrad, some dire avengers for anti-infantry, and rock on.
It was never what I saw in the army, though, and as far as I can see every single other way of playing Dark Eldar is just no longer feasible. I'm not exactly surprised, Dark Eldar lived in a very perilous area in 5e and our loss of even remotely worthwhile assault power in 6e is just...collateral damage to ensure Space Marines don't have to feel so afraid of normal power weapons. Even so, I remain saddened.
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Kharrak wrote:That said, I'm suddenly up in the air on Haywire blasters, or rather how to field them. I took them because they were fantastic suppression. Now they are less about suppression, and more about actual killing.
Will have to do some actual play testing to see how it all works @_@
Well, you don't get anymore supressed than being dead
mynamelegend wrote:
Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting..
I think "focus fire" takes a "COVER SAVE" instead of "save"
The loss of wound allocation is a nerf however,especially against those S6 weapons
New beast formation and placement should be discussed, it's the last hope of DE assault
mynamelegend wrote:feel free to try and charge a squad of wyches into assault with anything, let me know how that goes for ya once their overwatch is done eating away half your models.
A marine bolter hits 1/6 of the time, and wounds 2/3 of the time -- resulting in 1/9 of their shots killing a DE before FNP. If the wyches have FNP, the chance drops to 2/27. (7.40740741%)
Unless your assaulting 10 marines with 2 wytches, on average you won't lose half your wyches.
Now, a squad of 30 shoota boys -- that's a different story....
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Sorcererbob wrote:I can do this, right?
If they are shooting at the archon's unit, yea. He has a 35/36 chance of not taking whatever is thrown at him.
mynamelegend wrote:What happened to webways is clearly visible to all: They're laughably inept, and they never were a great option for Dark Eldar to begin with.
Which makes it that much worse - with allies and fortifications, Webway Portals would have become a viable list type, even with 50% reserves it would have been doable.
If they'd have just errata'd it to 'you can assault out of a webway portal' then we'd have been set.
Kharrak wrote:Not happy about not being able to assault out of WWP's. As someone who had a really fun WWP list, it burns. Not entirely sure how I'm going to get the Cronos and Talos into the list effectively.
It's possible the WWP nerf isn't as severe as I thought, though.
If you figure it out, let me know. (no really, PM me or something xD)
If they are shooting at the archon's unit, yea. He has a 35/36 chance of not taking whatever is thrown at him.
Consider a full blown "first line fire, second line fire" with 30 guardsmen (approximately the worst case scenario)
45 hits
22.5 wounds
Your archon will probably get through it without a scratch (the alternative being that your entire squad gets murdered). Just pray that he doesn't fail his saves early!
One to watch out for with our squishy non-combat Haemonculus -
Yesterday tried my first game using the new rules, ran a Haemy with Hexrifle and nothing else, he was in a building with 10 warriors. Previous turn he had disembarked some SM and a Librarian, I couldn't hit them as they hid behind the Rhino, next turn, Libby seperates and charges my Haemy by himself, and issues a challenge.
Wanting to try this new aspect out, I accepted knowing full well I would very likely die, which I duly did. (Being knocked to Str2 and T2 by a psychic attack didn't help) but then as i lost combat I had to take leadership on the 10 warriors, who failed, I VERY luckily rolled a 6 and didn't get cut down.
Long story short, weak HQ's - don't accept the challenge, or start equipping them to be a bit scary in CC!
The hexrifle was awesome though, first turn, rolled a 6 and killed the enemy sniper mwahaha.
The Farseer + Pathfinders combo is looking mighty tempting, would also be very nice to have proper pyschic defence, as these new powers are pretty nasty, and for a little while I think people are going to go crazy with the novelty of them!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought -
Drazhar now looks pretty good, looking at the FAQ it appears he could go into combat, or be charged and accept the challenge from the enemy character.... and then leave? Leaving the other character stuck out of combat for that round?
You could then jump into the main fight and mangle up the infantry while they have no back up from their character?
That's pretty nasty if we could do it... I like it!
Partial Army List:
Farseer + fortune + Runes of Witnessing
Archon + Shadowfield + <equipment>
Wyches x 10ish
Approx 300-350 points depending on kit
Tactic:
Archon stands at the front.
Farseer casts fortune.
Mock enemies that try to cause wounds on your 2++ rerollable
I can do this, right?
sure, you can. but that is a very expensive unit. The enemy could just manuver so the archon is no longer the closest model and then rape the wyches. Or he could charge in, challenge your archon with a sergeant, and then rape the wyches. You lose combat and run, he cuts you down.
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AngelGrinder wrote:One to watch out for with our squishy non-combat Haemonculus -
Long story short, weak HQ's - don't accept the challenge, or start equipping them to be a bit scary in CC!
The hexrifle was awesome though, first turn, rolled a 6 and killed the enemy sniper mwahaha.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought -
Drazhar now looks pretty good, looking at the FAQ it appears he could go into combat, or be charged and accept the challenge from the enemy character.... and then leave? Leaving the other character stuck out of combat for that round?
You could then jump into the main fight and mangle up the infantry while they have no back up from their character?
That's pretty nasty if we could do it... I like it!
Can a talos make challenges. Can he challenge the powerfist sergeant?
Hexrifle haemi's are great in or near pathfinders. They confer night vision to the pathfinders, while the finders give him +2 cover save
I think Drazhar can do that, but it is so poorly worded.
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mynamelegend wrote:
Beastmasters also got a pretty tasty nerf, but it'll take a while for people to notice it: The rules for multiple save types in shooting ensures that the enemy can allocate his shots where they will matter the most. You try to give your razorwings some khymera cover and he will ensure that his S4 fire tears into the khymerae and once they're gone his S6+ fire goes against the razorwings.
In short, the loss of 5e wound allocation has rendered beastmasters singularly unable to survive a clever enemy's shooting.
But hey, all is not lost! Imperial Guard won't bring Hydras anymore because someone at GW decided not to bother with giving them Interceptor when they errata'd in Skyfire. While they still tear asunder those fast skimmers like nobody's business, they can't do crud against ground targets, so don't expect anybody with a brain to field them outside of tailored lists.
Beastmasters did get a nerf there, but now the ignore terrain and move faster. The baron now makes sense to take with them.
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Oh yeah! Those wyches, mandrakes, Incubi, Fleet, Combat Drugs, open-topped transports, Agonizers, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques all just scream shooty army to me. Don't know why anyone ever even considered they might be meant for CC!
Can a talos make challenges. Can he challenge the powerfist sergeant?
Hexrifle haemi's are great in or near pathfinders. They confer night vision to the pathfinders, while the finders give him +2 cover save
I think Drazhar can do that, but it is so poorly worded.
Unfortunately Talos and Cronos are only MCs not characters, otherwise being able to challenge or deny the powerfist would make them a lot more suvrvivable.
See I'm still not big on wyches or bloodbrides at all. I used to run one of them as a counter-charge tactic to protect my warriors. Now I feel like they are pretty much worthless since they will get shot up pretty badly. At least they did in my playtest games. Now some things did get worse some didn't.
The Pros:
Spoiler:
Allies. I cannot express how happy I am that I can take eldar allies. A cheap farseer with runes, fortune, and doom (or Eldrad) is really nasty when a fortuned shadowfield is up front. Pathfinders fulfill a role that until now you had to buy a cheap squad of wracks for and hope you didn't get KP...camping a home obj. Being battle brothers lets them take that objective and lay down some nasty fire with 6s being AP 1 AND being able to allocate wounds yourself.
Jetbikes. Skilled riders made them very nasty and now I understand why they didn't have the 4+ armor when the new book came out. That plus the fact that you can go 48" (12" mv 36" turbo) + 2d6" a turn! Yikes bladevanes say hello! Then not to mention against a weak unit hammer can make or break them in assault.
Beasts. Maybe not better but less of a hit by comparison. Not having to roll when going through terrain is a huge plus, not to mention razorwings being able to ignore armor.
Voidraven and Razorwing. While through most if not all of 5th these to a backseat to the Ravager. Now I think that a Voidraven is one of the more nasty units in the game. Being able to drop the mine with insane accuracy now is nice. Normally I wouldn't take missiles on it but now I would. Basically when I come on I don't worry about the mine or the void lances unless the enemy has some non-hover mode flyers in the air. I try to wreck a scary units transport and then unload with something like implosion missiles. Firing all 4 (my only weapons that turn) to make that unit go away. Razorwings are a cheaper unit that will try to focus on those enemy flyers to protect my bomber...sounds familiar somehow.
Haywire. Wow this went from a suppressive weapon to an outright offensive weapon. Either in blaster or grenade form I am in love with these. Almost every hit will do something to the hull points so with some concentrated fire (which we should be doing anyway) then vehicles will go and then let the splinter weapons fire. Wyches can run them up to the vehicle (assuming it isn't a transport) and make double sure it is dead.
Splinter Racks. Being able to overwatch from an open topped vehicle is amzing with racks. The rerolls are nice and can save you from a very painful PF. I am starting to like raider spam again over venoms...ok maybe a balanced approach.
Scourges. OMG these guys are nuts. With a 12" move and a 24" range haywire blaster and taking 2 in a 5 man squad and 4 in a 10 these guys will be vehicle hunters extrodinare.
Cons:
Spoiler:
Assault. Most of DE assault is gone. Unfortunately this is HQs, most elites, and half of the troops. Now I'm not saying that it will be impossible, just not competative or even fun for that matter. Sure a dedicated CC army might be able to work through some squads but in the end I think they will run out of "juice" to finish the job. WWP assault is gone but bring heat lances up will still be viable. Incubi against non-PW units that were doomed will be nuts.
Venoms more than Raiders. With only 2 hull points venoms will go down quickly. While on the topic vehicles having a WS in general is so idiotic of an idea that I am outraged. The fact that my venom that went flat out zooming across the battlefield is hit, in CC, as easily as a LR that barely moved is just wrong!
Push:
Spoiler:
Flickerfields. While I'm not giving them up on things like flyers I don't think they are a must take on raiders. The only reason I like them on flyers is that I don't have to jink and thus not snap fire next turn. Being safer in CC is also nice.
Venomspam. I think in the long run it may die off some but the sheer number of targets will have a lot of weight beind them.
Shooting. I don't think out shooting really gained or benefited at all here, we were already good and we still are, now I wouldn't try to outshoot tau or IG but shooty crons could be in trouble.
Mmmm I'm almost thinking a farseer and a couple pathfinder squads may be a great choice to supplement my dark eldar wych army now.... Pathfinders pick off the squad leaders (I.e. wg in termi armor), so my hekagonizer can go to work on the unit. Mmmm... And the farseer gives blanket psyker protection, and can do some funky shenanigans (mindwar got MUCH better guys)
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Oh yeah! Those wyches, mandrakes, Incubi, Fleet, Combat Drugs, open-topped transports, Agonizers, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques all just scream shooty army to me. Don't know why anyone ever even considered they might be meant for CC!
Don't forget the Hellions, bladed bikes, points and blades EVERYWHERE.... not assaulty at all
Out of 36 units (including the apoc ones), 9 are vehicles, 5 of which can take 2 forms CC ability (of the 4 that can't, one's the Dais and 3 are flyers.), and only 3 (Kabalite Warriors, Trueborn and Scourges) can be called 'dedicated shooting' units and even then they can be kitted out as assaulty units
So that leaves 24 units that are dedicated assault units (some with some shooty ability.)
It seems to me that in order to retain an assulty army centered around wyches you have to take a hiemy in each squad and then seperate, leaving his pain token with the wyches and use him to charge first, sacrificing himself so they cant overwatch the wyches.
the other option would be to keep him with the wyches and put him in front. the benefit would be that he would have the fnp and still have to take hits till he died, but if the enemy has enough shooting they may be able to kill him and spill over onto the wyches.
i would use the second option mostly i think, but the first option would be good against units that have a TON of firepower and you know they would spill over into the wyches. seems like the best possible tactic to me because your not gonna lose the token and with the changes to fleet it doesnt matter as much to keep the hemonculus with you than it would to leave him back in the raider.
meneroth2 wrote:It seems to me that in order to retain an assulty army centered around wyches you have to take a hiemy in each squad and then seperate, leaving his pain token with the wyches and use him to charge first, sacrificing himself so they cant overwatch the wyches.
the other option would be to keep him with the wyches and put him in front. the benefit would be that he would have the fnp and still have to take hits till he died, but if the enemy has enough shooting they may be able to kill him and spill over onto the wyches.
i would use the second option mostly i think, but the first option would be good against units that have a TON of firepower and you know they would spill over into the wyches. seems like the best possible tactic to me because your not gonna lose the token and with the changes to fleet it doesnt matter as much to keep the hemonculus with you than it would to leave him back in the raider.
Something I'm not sure about and want clarified. If a unit gets assaulted by two units, can the unit being assaulted choose to hold its overwatch from the first unit and shoot the second?
Are you considered, "locked in combat," when blows are struck, or when charges are declared/made?
If you can, I don't see how the haemy tactic would work.
no, its locked in once the first unit moves into CC. I dont have the rulebook on hand to give you the specifics, but im almost 100% sure thats how it is. ive been brainstorming this since saturday.
Pretty sure that Eldar psychic powers only work Eldar - it is written in their codex.
The rule book psychic powers, however, do work on Dark Eldar.
Can someone tighten this up for me, I keep telling people you can not put fortune on a non-eldar unit. I do not have the Eldar rule book so I could be wrong.
Kwi wrote:Pretty sure that Eldar psychic powers only work Eldar - it is written in their codex.
The rule book psychic powers, however, do work on Dark Eldar.
Can someone tighten this up for me, I keep telling people you can not put fortune on a non-eldar unit. I do not have the Eldar rule book so I could be wrong.
will probably be FAQed to mean allied units, at least battle brothers but yes, right now it does not really work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
labmouse42 wrote:Look at the diviniation powers. You will see they are very much like the ones from the Eldar book.
they are similar but random. also you could get some bad ones
Automatically Appended Next Post:
meneroth2 wrote:no, its locked in once the first unit moves into CC. I dont have the rulebook on hand to give you the specifics, but im almost 100% sure thats how it is. ive been brainstorming this since saturday.
do you declare all charges together or do you declare one, move then delcare another.
if its the first then they can snap fire at any unit that charges them. if its the latter then they would have a model in BTB after the first charge and be unable to snap fire the second time
The assault rules are pretty clear, it's pick a unit, declare a charge, resolve the entire charge including overwatch, distance, and movement, then afterwards either pick another unit and repeat the process, or move onto the fights sub phase.
So by splitting of the Haemy and declaring his charge first, you are forcing your opponent to either overwatch him (like you want them to) or, save his overwatch for the wyches but risk having the Haemy make it into assault and tying his unit up.
Its just too bad Haemonculi don't have fleet, that would really make this tactic.
I'm pretty bummed about not being able to put allied characters in a squad of raider wyches, I was all set on including Yriel in my Sliscus corsair themed force to give my wyches back their punch with his 4 2+ wounding armour ignoring attacks, and help me bring my deep striking tranports and my flyers in from reserve on turn 2, but sadly I can't put him in the transport. If I were to include an Autarch it would have to be using Swooping Hawk wings and putting him with Hellions or Beasts, but then their normal weapon selection of either a Power Weapon, or a Scorpion Chainsword are pretty mediocre IMO.
Drunkspleen wrote:The assault rules are pretty clear, it's pick a unit, declare a charge, resolve the entire charge including overwatch, distance, and movement, then afterwards either pick another unit and repeat the process, or move onto the fights sub phase.
So by splitting of the Haemy and declaring his charge first, you are forcing your opponent to either overwatch him (like you want them to) or, save his overwatch for the wyches but risk having the Haemy make it into assault and tying his unit up.
Its just too bad Haemonculi don't have fleet, that would really make this tactic.
I'm pretty bummed about not being able to put allied characters in a squad of raider wyches, I was all set on including Yriel in my Sliscus corsair themed force to give my wyches back their punch with his 4 2+ wounding armour ignoring attacks, and help me bring my deep striking tranports and my flyers in from reserve on turn 2, but sadly I can't put him in the transport. If I were to include an Autarch it would have to be using Swooping Hawk wings and putting him with Hellions or Beasts, but then their normal weapon selection of either a Power Weapon, or a Scorpion Chainsword are pretty mediocre IMO.
Why cant you put an allied character from Eldar with a DE unit?
So, as I understand it, Doom is the only Eldar psychic power that would actually synergize with Dark Eldar, since all the others specifically mention "Eldar" gaining the benefit. If this does restrict things, Eldrad would certainly lose a lot of his appeal.
I suppose one could argue that Dark Eldar are indeed Eldar, but I've no idea how much traction that may have.
Still, having 5 Pathfinders and a Farseer with Doom, Mind War, Runes of Warding and Witnessing, and Spirit Stones comes out to 265pts, which certainly isn't bad.
Drunkspleen wrote:The assault rules are pretty clear, it's pick a unit, declare a charge, resolve the entire charge including overwatch, distance, and movement, then afterwards either pick another unit and repeat the process, or move onto the fights sub phase.
So by splitting of the Haemy and declaring his charge first, you are forcing your opponent to either overwatch him (like you want them to) or, save his overwatch for the wyches but risk having the Haemy make it into assault and tying his unit up.
Its just too bad Haemonculi don't have fleet, that would really make this tactic.
They don't really need fleet for this tactic, as they're seperating off and forcing the overwatch, you should be close enough it shouldn't really matter (5-7" away, with the wyches fleet getting you 7-9")
Drunkspleen wrote:I'm pretty bummed about not being able to put allied characters in a squad of raider wyches, I was all set on including Yriel in my Sliscus corsair themed force to give my wyches back their punch with his 4 2+ wounding armour ignoring attacks, and help me bring my deep striking tranports and my flyers in from reserve on turn 2, but sadly I can't put him in the transport. If I were to include an Autarch it would have to be using Swooping Hawk wings and putting him with Hellions or Beasts, but then their normal weapon selection of either a Power Weapon, or a Scorpion Chainsword are pretty mediocre IMO.
Personally, I intend to run it either winged with scourges, with a fusiongun / reaper launcher, or in a squad of storm guardians (with fusionguns).
Xeriapt wrote:Why cant you put an allied character from Eldar with a DE unit?
Because you can't put allied ICs in allied transports at deployment.
Drunkspleen wrote:So by splitting of the Haemy and declaring his charge first, you are forcing your opponent to either overwatch him (like you want them to) or, save his overwatch for the wyches but risk having the Haemy make it into assault and tying his unit up.
So, if the Haemy makes it into assault and ties up the unit, the wyches can then assault w/o fear of overwatch? This is all the same assault phase, right?
Drunkspleen wrote:So by splitting of the Haemy and declaring his charge first, you are forcing your opponent to either overwatch him (like you want them to) or, save his overwatch for the wyches but risk having the Haemy make it into assault and tying his unit up.
So, if the Haemy makes it into assault and ties up the unit, the wyches can then assault w/o fear of overwatch? This is all the same assault phase, right?
After mulling through the codex and playing a few games this is what I've seen:
• Incubi will be used again. The Klaivex upgrade is mandatory and demi klaives are a must (only AP2 weapon in the codex). Onslaught and especially Murderous assault is worth taking now. Remember, the Klaivex is a character which means precision strikes. Also, they will be masters of challenges as Murderous assault gives them Preferred Enemy vs. IC's
• Drahzar will definitely see more play. He buffs Incubi, his darting strike allows you to bounce characters out of a combat while he attacks something else. He is going to be a b-itch in challenges. 2+ save gets around AP3 power weapons...and getting FnP on him basically gives him a 5+ invuln save.
• Reaver Jetbikes got a massive boost now. Bladevaning allows you to snik the important models if they are placed in back as casualties come from the closest to your bikes. So when they pass over they are closer to the models in the back of the target unit. When they turbo boost they go back to a 3+ cover save. (Jink+Turbo Bonus+Skilled Rider bonus = 3+ save). It may actually be worth upgrading to a arena champion now. Jetbikes seem like they'd be an okay assault unit as each bike gets 3 attacks on the charge and one Init 10 Hammer of Wrath strike.
• All the flyers are worth taking now. I tried out the Razorwing Fighters and they are pimp. Annoy people by taking flicker fields and night shields. Which leads to:
• Flicker fields will still be needed. There are lots of cover ignoring weapons out there still. Jink is just a cover save. Hydras blow through that as well as 'Fire on my target' with IG. Nightshields will be essential now that you can't put all your units in reserve.
• Wyches will require a WWP for delivery + deployment tricks. Putting them in Raiders now is a waste of time. Bigger units will be used.
• Lelith may be worth taking now. She is one of only two characters that have attacks that 'ignores armor saves'. Her blade isn't listed as a power weapon. Plus she will be more durable now that she can't be picked out of a combat unless challenged...which she'll be okay with anyways.
• Duke may be worth taking now. Like Lelith he is the only one in the codex that has a weapon that on a 5+ 'ignores armor saves'. Taking him to buff jetbikes further will be awesome.
• Phantasm GL's will be taken more. Getting the cover save when you charge vs. overwatch fire is better than no save. Wyches will be more durable as at least they'll get two saves assuming they have their first token.
• Disintegrators may be considered again. With the rise of the 2+ save....putting some in the army may be helpful..and they are still decent vs. rhinos.
• Adding Power Axes or Power Spears to Hekatrixes will be better overall than Agonizers.
• Wracks may be the scoring unit of choice
• Hellions may be the scoring unit of choice
• At 2k points taking the Baron as a 3rd HQ is almost a no brainer. Only 105pts unlocks Hellions as scoring and allows you the +1 to go first.
• Beastpacks will need to include Clawed Fiends now to absorb damage. You will also need to increase their unit size for them to be effective. They still are a viable assault unit.
• Scourges will be really useful to snik Hull Points off vehicles quickly. These may be more useful in certain builds vs. others.
• Grotesques are pretty good in this edition. They are very durable...and once they are fearless don't suffer from no retreat like they used to...thus they have an extreme resilience vs. just about anything. Adding Urien makes a unit of 10 disgustingly awesome. The ability to possibly assault further is appealing and the buff to FnP makes the weapons that were a problem less so.
• Harlequins may serve a purpose in the DE list. Rending is a boon, and you have 3 characters in the squad that can precision strike stuff. Death Jesters bring a Str6 gun to the table for DE and Fusion Pistols are still gold. Veil took a slight hit, but with Nightfighting...makes them still very durable.
• Trueborn with blasters aren't really worth it anymore. With the extra reach of rapid fire guns...these guys are now overpriced and die immediately with the new allocation rules since you have to get close with the important stuff and the AP2 bonus is a red herring. It basically makes the damage chart like the old one...thus the odds of killing a vehicle remains largely unchanged. I lost mine after one shooting phase in every game. It was ridiculous. I'm thinking of switching to trueborn with Dark Lances. They can sit back in cover and shoot stuff. 5 man squads with 2 DLs may be better.
• Vect is crap now and a waste of points.
• WWPs aren't that bad. They will be used more to deliver scoring units closer to objectives without getting pounded by rapid fire shooting.
• Big Warrior squads may be worth taking in combination with Sky Shields or Aegis Defense lines. If you are taking Aegis lines always add a coms relay for your flyers.
This is but a little of the things I'm seeing with DE. I haven't tapped the combos with allies as I'm looking to see what the codex can do on it's own for now. I'm hoping to get more games in this weekend.
- archons court just got really good with shooting against highest toughness. shooting now goes against majority toughness, so you take a couple ur-gouls (the T5 guys) and the unit counts as toughness 5 for all purposes. im not 100% sure this works in cc but i know it works against shooting. pretty sure it works in cc too. I plan to give my archon two ur-gouls as bodyguards which will give the unit majority toughness of 5 and you can still take saves on the archon if hes closest. makes him much harder to kill.
-if you want to really abuse the rules look out sir does allow you to take your saves and if you fail them pass it on to your buddies (look at the very top of the "look out sir" box and look at the wording in parenthesees). This pretty much gives you a 2++ rerollable before your archon is in trouble.
-deep striking scourges with haywire blasters are awesome now if you take a squad of 10. thats 4 blasters anywhere on the table. pretty much garantees a vehicle of any sort dead when they come in. and if the worst happens and you miss one or two, reavers can jump in and finish the vehicle off pretty easily.
-like i mentioned before, hiemies just became the suicide unit to stop overwatch if your still gonna run wyches in raiders.
-WWP is terrible, i gotta disagree with the OP. You can deliver units closer, sure, but unless those units are maxed out squads of warriors or wyches in terrian, they will be instagibbed before they can do anything. 9 rapid fire bolters and a flamer will slaughter any of our infantry, or at least render them useless.
-harlies just became our very best unit. there is a slight issue where they got buffed in the eldar FAQ but not the DEFAQ. personally im just gonna resolve it with my opponent before every game but anyway, it gives them a +3 to all their cover saves, even in the open. They will become great IC carriers in this edition. with the buff to rending they also became our best (or second best) unit for dealing with termies.
-leith got alot better with the ability to ignore armor, but still suffers from S3. bringing along a farseer with doom puts her in a good place though, so its worth considering.
-wyches lost alot in this edition but they still have 2 things going for them: no loss of tarpit abilities and haywire grenades. Instead of worrying about them getting stuck in with a vehicle for a couple turns its pretty much garanteed that they can kill any vehicle in one assult. also, they still tarpit deathstars great with invoun saves and shardnets. remember that shardnets affect all models in base contact, not just one, so your very likely to drop 4 attacks off an enemy squad, which is great. couple them with disinegrator ravagers and its still a strong list.
-razorwing flocks are alot stronger as well with rending changes. im going to start taking them en masse.
-Jetbikes are SUPER strong now with the ability to get great cover saves and kite. any footslogging termie list is gonna have to deal with squads of ravagers taking potshots at them and then ducking back out of sight or charge range. Ill still use heat lances on them because thats what i like, but if your not up against a MEQ list (rare, i know) then haywire blasters may be the way to go. Also, their bladevayne rule might be useful now with casualty allocation and the impact hits make them somewhat viable in CC.
Personally the list im going to run is still raider wyches but ill have 2 squads of jetbikes up the flanks to pick off vehicles and termies and scourges deepstriking to drop any nasty vehicle that has to go. harlies will be objective denyers and termie hunters and ravagers will be there to focus down big targets. i may add a good sized beast herd for more speed and rending power.
- archons court just got really good with shooting against highest toughness. shooting now goes against majority toughness, so you take a couple ur-gouls (the T5 guys) and the unit counts as toughness 5 for all purposes. im not 100% sure this works in cc but i know it works against shooting. pretty sure it works in cc too. I plan to give my archon two ur-gouls as bodyguards which will give the unit majority toughness of 5 and you can still take saves on the archon if hes closest. makes him much harder to kill.
Ur-Ghuls are only T3. Sslyths are T5. However you can't create a non majority when the archon joins the unit. To create a non majority in toughness you need 3 Sslyth to create a non majority in the unit. The unit will look ilke this 3 Sslyths, 1 Lhaemaen, 1 Medusae, 1 Ur-Ghul. The problem occurs when the Archon joins the unit and the majority is T3 now.
-deep striking scourges with haywire blasters are awesome now if you take a squad of 10. thats 4 blasters anywhere on the table. pretty much garantees a vehicle of any sort dead when they come in. and if the worst happens and you miss one or two, reavers can jump in and finish the vehicle off pretty easily.
There is no reason to DS these guys anymore. They have a 36" reach. Put them in cover and start them on the board so they can start glancing dead stuff right away. If anything, this is the use for WWPs to put them on the table with no risk. A 36" reach from a WWP to target is better than risking a deepstrike for no reason...especially since 10 scourges isn't cheap.
-WWP is terrible, i gotta disagree with the OP. You can deliver units closer, sure, but unless those units are maxed out squads of warriors or wyches in terrian, they will be instagibbed before they can do anything. 9 rapid fire bolters and a flamer will slaughter any of our infantry, or at least render them useless.
My experience using them tells me otherwise. Combining Bikes, Hellions, Scourges out of the portal with Wyches allows the wyches to be screened long enough to move into position. Like I said, more thought will be needed to place models when you are using one.
-razorwing flocks are alot stronger as well with rending changes. im going to start taking them en masse.
Razoring flocks are not stronger they are weaker as allocation isn't as good for them now. I'd say they are a push overall between 5th and 6th. They have no save vs most guns...which means they'll have to bring up the rear in the unit along with the beastmasters. That means most firepower will be landing on your Khaemerae first...that isn't good either as that's your bread and butter of the unit. Thus adding a clawed fiend to the front...he will have to take all the wounds from the pool first before moving onto the next set of wounds.
-Jetbikes are SUPER strong now with the ability to get great cover saves and kite. any footslogging termie list is gonna have to deal with squads of ravagers taking potshots at them and then ducking back out of sight or charge range. Ill still use heat lances on them because thats what i like, but if your not up against a MEQ list (rare, i know) then haywire blasters may be the way to go. Also, their bladevayne rule might be useful now with casualty allocation and the impact hits make them somewhat viable in CC.
Jetbikes can't take Haywire blasters. But yes, they are one of the more effective units in the book now.
-wyches lost alot in this edition but they still have 2 things going for them: no loss of tarpit abilities and haywire grenades. Instead of worrying about them getting stuck in with a vehicle for a couple turns its pretty much garanteed that they can kill any vehicle in one assult. also, they still tarpit deathstars great with invoun saves and shardnets. remember that shardnets affect all models in base contact, not just one, so your very likely to drop 4 attacks off an enemy squad, which is great. couple them with disinegrator ravagers and its still a strong list.
To me, wyches will be a full squad, or a small squad. In between squad sizes will be a waste. Big squads to assault a stuff but still keep their numbers high enough to win. Small squads to harass and chuck haywire grenades in the shooting phase at vehicles to strip hull points away. As a direct combat unit now...they may only be worth it by switching to Power Axes and Power Spears.
CaptKaruthors wrote:After mulling through the codex and playing a few games this is what I've seen:
• Incubi will be used again. The Klaivex upgrade is mandatory and demi klaives are a must (only AP2 weapon in the codex). Onslaught and especially Murderous assault is worth taking now. Remember, the Klaivex is a character which means precision strikes. Also, they will be masters of challenges as Murderous assault gives them Preferred Enemy vs. IC's
• Wyches will require a WWP for delivery + deployment tricks. Putting them in Raiders now is a waste of time. Bigger units will be used.
• Beastpacks will need to include Clawed Fiends now to absorb damage. You will also need to increase their unit size for them to be effective. They still are a viable assault unit.
• Harlequins may serve a purpose in the DE list. Rending is a boon, and you have 3 characters in the squad that can precision strike stuff. Death Jesters bring a Str6 gun to the table for DE and Fusion Pistols are still gold. Veil took a slight hit, but with Nightfighting...makes them still very durable.
• Trueborn with blasters aren't really worth it anymore. With the extra reach of rapid fire guns...these guys are now overpriced and die immediately with the new allocation rules since you have to get close with the important stuff and the AP2 bonus is a red herring. It basically makes the damage chart like the old one...thus the odds of killing a vehicle remains largely unchanged. I lost mine after one shooting phase in every game. It was ridiculous. I'm thinking of switching to trueborn with Dark Lances. They can sit back in cover and shoot stuff. 5 man squads with 2 DLs may be better.
• WWPs aren't that bad. They will be used more to deliver scoring units closer to objectives without getting pounded by rapid fire shooting.
The Klaivex with demiklaves is good but a huge amount of points to just be MSS to death. He has his place now, to help out in assault, but frankly DE arent that good in assault in 6th and he is still a point sink.
Wyches cannot assault out of a WWP so having them come out is rather moot. Better to have wracks coming out to grab objectives. Still with the reserve rules its probably better to just DS scoring hellions in.
Beastpacks lose a lot with the new wound allocations meaning you cant choose what shots to put on what kinds of models. razorwings get eaten by str6, clawed fiends get taken by anti tank and kymera get mass boltered
Quins in the DE codex have not been FAQed so they still have the old viel. The eldar codex currently has both shrouded and stealth and the old viel meaning that they are worthin taking. Note that you cannot have shrouded and stealth more than once, so at night quins are no harder to see.
Trueborn are ok with the new snapfire rules but yeah they never were that good. better to ally in firedragons.
As before, why take an expensive portal that could die or be surounded when you can just DS hellions
Drunkspleen wrote:So by splitting of the Haemy and declaring his charge first, you are forcing your opponent to either overwatch him (like you want them to) or, save his overwatch for the wyches but risk having the Haemy make it into assault and tying his unit up.
So, if the Haemy makes it into assault and ties up the unit, the wyches can then assault w/o fear of overwatch? This is all the same assault phase, right?
Exergy wrote:Quins in the DE codex have not been FAQed so they still have the old viel. The eldar codex currently has both shrouded and stealth and the old viel meaning that they are worthin taking. Note that you cannot have shrouded and stealth more than once, so at night quins are no harder to see.
When the new Dark Eldar book and initial FAQ were released, without anything regarding Harlequins, I was told to refer to the Eldar FAQ in regards to Harlequins by the local Games Workshop manager.
So that's what I did, and that's what I'm going to continue doing. And frankly, anyone with an iota of sense will realise that being there's absolutely no data in the Dark Eldar FAQ about it, this is the logical thing to do.
Exergy wrote:Quins in the DE codex have not been FAQed so they still have the old viel. The eldar codex currently has both shrouded and stealth and the old viel meaning that they are worthin taking. Note that you cannot have shrouded and stealth more than once, so at night quins are no harder to see.
When the new Dark Eldar book and initial FAQ were released, without anything regarding Harlequins, I was told to refer to the Eldar FAQ in regards to Harlequins by the local Games Workshop manager.
So that's what I did, and that's what I'm going to continue doing. And frankly, anyone with an iota of sense will realise that being there's absolutely no data in the Dark Eldar FAQ about it, this is the logical thing to do.
I think common sense tells me to treat the harlies like the ones listed in the eldar faq. dont see why they would be different.
how does vect suck now? he still has PE, a 2++, decent shooting and a power maul. granted he wont chop up termies quite as nice, but anything else he just rocks them.
DarthSpader wrote:how does vect suck now? he still has PE, a 2++, decent shooting and a power maul. granted he wont chop up termies quite as nice, but anything else he just rocks them.
Is his weapons considered a power maul? or just a power weapon? either way his attaks wont ignore armor like in 5th. He doesnt suck, just cost alot.
DarthSpader wrote:how does vect suck now? he still has PE, a 2++, decent shooting and a power maul. granted he wont chop up termies quite as nice, but anything else he just rocks them.
Is his weapons considered a power maul? or just a power weapon? either way his attaks wont ignore armor like in 5th. He doesnt suck, just cost alot.
he always wounds on 3+ and is AP3. Not a power maul. He costs too much for what he does. He just fails against any character with a 2+ and that is most of them.
He was always too expensive for what he did The only times I've taken him is for an extra ravager (with a cheap as possible warrior squad or something) or in a gag list with a vectstar of Vect, a haemy / drazhar and 8 incubi ( with klaivex naturally )
Ovion wrote:He was always too expensive for what he did The only times I've taken him is for an extra ravager (with a cheap as possible warrior squad or something) or in a gag list with a vectstar of Vect, a haemy / drazhar and 8 incubi ( with klaivex naturally )
He gives PE to the Squad he joins though now right? That might make him more of an interesting tool.
And good catch on ICs not joining infiltrators Ovion. That's a bit disappointing. I still think Mandrakes are more viable in 6th then they were in 5th as they legitimately threaten vehicles (AC10 rear at least), and the changes to overwatch changes the dynamics between them and wyches a bit (Mandrakes being a bit more survivable to pew pew), plus they are still the only Outflankers DE have without allies. FWIW.
I find it funny how people are already claiming absolutes in a gaming system 5 days old, FAQs that will be updated, and 11+ different armies.
Its almost like people are expecting 20 terminators and 5 flyers to show up in every army they face.
I know of only two Necron armies in my area and have only ever played against one. His lord with MSS died very quickly because it was obvious where he was and I made sure to kill him. He ran his guy out, killed a unit and then every gun in my army shot at him until dead. He didn't make his points back.
The point is, every codex has scary guys. You just have to bring yours. And if you don't have one, then the author of your army wasn't Matt Ward. So then ally with a Ward codex to even the playing field.
Things that were overcosted in 5th. Even if they got a boost in 6th, are still probably over costed. Things that were undercosted in 5th are probably still undercosted in 6th.
Yes there are somethings that look bad. But maybe bringing 15 wyches out of a WWP wont be such a bad thing if you bring out something scary as well.
I really think 5 days is a little too early to claim the death of a unit. And there will always be someone (like me) who is sticking with his raider borne wyches because they now act as a counter charge unit instead of a front line assault.
Yes there are somethings that look bad. But maybe bringing 15 wyches out of a WWB wont be such a bad thing if you bring out something scary as well.
Good points all around by Jayden, this one in particular. And, as a WWP runner I can tell you that anytime I played an experienced general they didn't allow a whole lot of opportunity to assault the first turn out of the WWP anyway, so that nerf, as said as it makes me, really only puts the foam on our Baby Seal clubs.
3+ to reserves is a pretty significant buff to WWP reserves as well, also Autarchs will help this yes?
Another thought on Mandrakes. Sergs/heavy/special weapons will be hanging out in the rear or formations now. Have a unit that can come on the board edge and pew pew from behind will have special viability in 6th that didn't exist in 5th, provided of course IF you can get them the PT to make it work.
Page 61, under power weapons.
"If a model's warger says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:.."
Not exactly game breaking... but, it's another HQ dude to take on 2+ armor...
CaptKaruthors wrote:• Adding Power Axes or Power Spears to Hekatrixes will be better overall than Agonizers.
The issue I'm having, is I find Wyches lack the devestating first charge to justify the spear, and without a second character in the unit, taking an axe exposes your Hekatrix to challenges if you assault a competent melee unit, which is the main thing I task my wyches with (other than now nading tanks down too) but then, at 20 points it's kind of hard to justify the agonizer now.
I'm actually leaning towards opting for the cheaper venom blade myself, but I definitely plan to stick axes into units with 2 characters, one (generally a haemonculus) being the slow axe wielder and the other keeping high Initiative for taking down enemy characters in challenges.
I'm fairly shocked by the pessimism about DE. I remember how my IG parking lots beat DE before, and with this new edition, DE can really stop trying to miraculously crack armor with cost-inneffective dark lances, and use wyches to open the transports. Transports which, in my opinion, will soon be a lot less common.
If anyone hasn't really let the grenade buffs sink in... the new rules + haywire grenades is bonkers over the top. Seven wyches kill a land raider on average. Haywire grenade wyches just dominate walkers. The only thing wyches aren't great at is high toughness infantry and 2+ armor save infantry.
Dark eldar's ranged game is much more points efficient when shooting at high toughness or 2+ armor, than when it is trying to crack armor. Razorwings and ravagers with disintegrators can do plenty of work against terminators, where the incredible splinter cannon can just hammer monstrous creatures and high toughness units from downtown.
A couple of boogeymen to dispel.
"my wyches are going to get shredded by overwatch"
-you get to choose what you want to charge. The transports and other vehicles you are charging aren't going to be able to save themselves with enough volume.
-if you have wych based anti-infantry, you are going to have an archon... lets see what happens to wyches charging grey hunters. 20 bolter snaps, 3-4 hits, 3 wounds, all saved by shadow field, any that don't will be look out sirred to wyches 6" from the front of the unit.
-as was mentioned before, charging first with an IC or a reaver unit makes it even worse, units locked in combat may not overwatch.
"flyer spam will dominate the game"
-flyers are non-scoring, non-denial units. Let those vendettas durdle around and shoot their lascannons at your primarily infantry army.
-I'm not sure people have played with flyers enough yet. the mostly fixed position weapon arcs and restrictive 90 degree max turn, plus the minimum forward movement will really balance out their extra survivability.
"WWP is crap now"
-In all of my tournament games during 5th edition, I can't recall a game when I let anyone get a WWP charge off on me. And that includes beastmaster spam. The early turns and reserves work in a very predictable way. This new rule, as was just mentioned, doesn't change the competitive game.
-For 70 points you can get a comms relay and 32" of 4+ cover that can be deployed on the center line of the table. Wyches have plasma grenades so they don't care if the enemy tries to use the walls themselves. Walk your wrack unit with haemonculus up behind an aegis, right where you placed one of your objectives, throw your WWP, activate the comms next turn for an 89% arrival rate on the wyches. Wyches who will move 6" plus a re-rollable run move right up to table center and enjoy their 4+ cover. If its not time for them to join the game, they can G2G behind the aegis for 2+ cover saves.
As I see it, and I'll admit that I have been away from 5th edition for a few months, this is how the next few months are going to go.
wych spam and genestealer spam are going to push people completely out of mech spam over the next two months. People will start packing flamers and bigger units to hit genestealers and wyches with more painful overwatches in the following two months as the game starts to stabilize, and then people will start fielding sturdy anti-infantry ranged shots as more foot targets emerge. Dark eldar don't have any problem finding long ranged anti-infantry that can slug it out with other foot based armies.
As the game gets out of the vehicle spam, the incredible buffing that independent characters got is going to rear its ugly head. The high initiative shadow field toting dark eldar will enjoy this trend.
That's just my wild-eyed speculation, its silly to call it anything more than that, but one thing I remember saying when I was trying so desperately to get tyranids to work in 5th edition was that if close combat against vehicles was ever a viable option, this game would turn on its head. Tyranids don't have to spend three elite slots and 450 points on hive guard, and dark eldar don't have to burn three heavy slots and three elite slots for 9 dark lances and 12 blasters. Aside from flyers, you can run lists with entirely close combat answers to vehicles and be fine.
And I expect a release wave of anti-flyers, complete with white dwarf rules, just as soon as they finish getting our money for all the flyers.
Shep wrote:-if you have wych based anti-infantry, you are going to have an archon... lets see what happens to wyches charging grey hunters. 20 bolter snaps, 3-4 hits, 3 wounds, all saved by shadow field, any that don't will be look out sirred to wyches 6" from the front of the unit.
Wrong, if you have mixed saves (which the shadow field definitely constitutes) you have to Look Out Sir before rolling your saves, you can't use the shadow field to protect other models.
-I'm not sure people have played with flyers enough yet. the mostly fixed position weapon arcs and restrictive 90 degree max turn, plus the minimum forward movement will really balance out their extra survivability.
The weapon arcs are actually pretty generous, I did the maths and at the max range of 36 inches for the DE flyer fixed weapons you are getting over 12 inches either side of where you are actually pointed which falls within the arc, sure you lose some of it as you get closer to the target, but it's enough that I think a smart player will be able to do a lot of damage.
Not to mention the imperial flyers have the luxury of being able to hover for a turn and pull a total 180 if they are about to head off the board and don't want to which is silly, Dark Eldar flyers really should have got Vector Dancer IMO, they are meant to be some of the most agile aircraft out there.
Don't forget that we arbitrarily lost Aerial Assault, and that the marine flyer is cheaper, better armed and armoured, immune to melta, can hover (and is BS5 when it does) than our supposedly superior technology jet plane. (It still looks cooler though. BRING ON THE VOIDRAVEN!)
Shep wrote:I'm fairly shocked by the pessimism about DE. this is how the next few months are going to go.
wych spam and genestealer spam are going to push people completely out of mech spam over the next two months. People will start packing flamers and bigger units to hit genestealers and wyches with more painful overwatches in the following two months as the game starts to stabilize, and then people will start fielding sturdy anti-infantry ranged shots as more foot targets emerge. Dark eldar don't have any problem finding long ranged anti-infantry that can slug it out with other foot based armies.
As the game gets out of the vehicle spam, the incredible buffing that independent characters got is going to rear its ugly head. The high initiative shadow field toting dark eldar will enjoy this trend.
That's just my wild-eyed speculation, its silly to call it anything more than that, but one thing I remember saying when I was trying so desperately to get tyranids to work in 5th edition was that if close combat against vehicles was ever a viable option, this game would turn on its head. Tyranids don't have to spend three elite slots and 450 points on hive guard, and dark eldar don't have to burn three heavy slots and three elite slots for 9 dark lances and 12 blasters. Aside from flyers, you can run lists with entirely close combat answers to vehicles and be fine.
And I expect a release wave of anti-flyers, complete with white dwarf rules, just as soon as they finish getting our money for all the flyers.
Anti flyer isn't really a problem. You might have to shoot them a few times to get them to evade, but ehh then they arent useful. The razorwing is pretty good at taking them down as well.
It is nice, still dont have much of an answer for 2+ wolf guard in longfangs or grey hunters. Same for Cron overlords with 2+ in any cron unit.
It looks like some of the Warrior shooting blobs I've been experimenting with are about to get better. Make a 20-man unit with Duke Sliscus for 3+ poison and a Warlock for Doom, and you have a very scary team for relatively cheap.
As for Jetbikes, do they still do well in 3-man special weapons teams, or should they try forming up into larger groups to charge after firing a few times? It seems like a solution to the wych problem might be to get a few jetbikes into melee from halfway across the field first, they'd still get the 4+ cover on the charge right?
Still, I have a buddy who plays orcs, and I don't think I'll be charging his 30-man boyz squads anymore. I used to be able to tie them up forever, now most of our units would die on the way in... terrible sadness.
I always saw the DE as about shooting for the most part - they don;t like risking their precious skins!
Oh yeah! Those wyches, mandrakes, Incubi, Fleet, Combat Drugs, open-topped transports, Agonizers, Talos, Wracks, Grotesques all just scream shooty army to me. Don't know why anyone ever even considered they might be meant for CC!
I said for the most part and given the list of units you have there I am right. Combat was always mopping up survivors in my experience not winning the day. Better to hit them and not get hit back.
I personally don't like wyches much (at least in 5th) though that may change. Who ever took mandrakes apart for fun really? Nuff said there. Incubi I am a fan of but would never charge them into 2+ save units anyway as inevitably they had ++ saves and or power weapons of there own so no change there. Talos? I prefer the ravager or razor wing as they synergise with the army better. Wracks are just objective campers and are worse than wyches in combat for the most part. As for grots... Unless in a specIfic build were never very good anyway.
I am over the doom and gloom from dark eldar players, we are only 1 week into the new edition.
I primarily run a Coven, it uses Wracks and Grotesques ( in raiders and venoms no less )
In 5th ed, the Grotesques were good at killing troops and vehicles. ( Apart from dreads, but even then, they could happily tarpit them. ) And the Wracks as basic troops were 2 APD6 flamers ( Liquifier guns are fantastic ) that frankly, wrecked most anything with a toughness it touched ( 30 poison hits, generally with re-rolls to wound. ) or did indeed sit on objectives ( 3 with a hex rifle, also killed MCs nicely ) I won around 9/10 games I played with that list.
In 6th ed - The Grotesques will be able to kill dreads, so that's a boost - no more just tarpitting them, potential to wreck.
Wracks are still good as far as I can tell, the only major downside is the vehicles are FAR more fragile, but I'lll deal with it. And while I haven't tested my Talos yet, I imagine it'll be much the same (though when it gets feel no pain now, it'll actually get to use it, as before everything pointed at them negated it.)
Quick question for the DE players that have been getting games in.
What is the best Razorwing weapon loadout you think?
Most people are talking about using voidravens for air to air, it seems to me that the razorwing could be ok on that front, or should it just be built as a dedicated strike aircraft, and tie its guns into what your foot troops are lacking?
I'm taking mine as an AA dogfighter - twin lances, splinter rifles, monoscythes, with a flickerfield (and night shield if I have the points) and that's how my second one will be kitted out when I buy it.
Taking it with Disintegrators is theoretically viable, unless you come up against any AV12+ flyers, at which point you're boned, and frankly, cannon over rifles is now less worth the points.
With the Voidraven (whenever that kit's released) I'll be running mine with 2-4 shatterfield missiles to boost its firepower.
Dark Eldar in 6th edition is a mixed bag. I don't think we got any better, but also I don't feel that we got worse in any significant sense of the word. If anything, the strength of the army has shifted more to Venom Spam than it has before (to some people this is a bad thing, myself included, as I am a big fan of unit variety.)
Assault for DE is going to require a lot more finesse to pull off. Potential assault distances are down, Overwatch really hurts our units - Wyches in particular - and FNP got nerfed. Lack of AP 2 CC weapons doesn't help either. This hurts all of our CC units except for Beastmasters, which got a boost and is probably our go to Elite CC unit now that Incubi can't handle Terminators. Wyches are still a great tarpit unit though, and I'm planning on using them to run down vehicles and then get stuck into some Elite unit to tie it up for a few turns.
Shooting for DE got better for the most part. The rapid fire changes really help our Warriors remain useful even while on the move. Haywire Blasters are better, but don't reach greatness because of the amount of points you have to pay to gain access to them. The introduction of Overwatch may lead to large DE foot armies as Overwatch + higher Initiative + Phantasm Grenade Launchers means that DE are well equipped to handle close range shooting battles that lead to a uhit assaulting the warriors - provided they are in cover. Also, cover got worse, which helps us offensively.
The introduction of Hull Points is a blessing and a curse for DE. Gone are the days of glancing a vehicle so that it can't do anything for the next turn, but by the same token glances now do real damage. Haywire helps with this, and could be the new black for taking out vehicles. On the defensive end, hull points help our vehicles because glances no longer limit our mobility or destroy weapons, and penetrating hits were always going to do significant damage. In the most recent game I played Hull Points actually helped my Raiders (I was trying out Raiders). Also, FF is no longer mandatory, but is still a good idea because you can only move 6" and maintain full firepower with vehicles.
Flyers are something I have a mixed opinion on. I believe in a full alpha strike and sacrificing Ravagers - on which Disintagrators are now really good - to take a unit that might come in on turn 2 or as late as turn 4 really hurts the alpha strike a lot. On the other hand we need a way to deal with Flyers but I may just rely on lance saturation to get the job done.
I guess I don't see the new changes as bad. Although, I played 4th edition DE since 2003, and won around 85% of my games. I've always beem used to having it rough. You just gotta adapt.
Personally, while it's now 5+, I think Feel No Pain is better overall, as my wracks / grotesques / talos get it where they often didn't before.
Also, you can move 12" and maintain full firepower.
Fast Vehicles can move 12" and fire 2 weapons at full BS, the Raider has Aerial Assault letting it move 12" and fire all weapons at full BS, and flyers can move 18-30" or something and fire 4 weapons...
Flickerfield for Flyers is mandatory, it also remains useful on ground vehicles, as when stationary / immobilised / in cc, you retain the save.
Taking a fortification with a comms relay lets you re-roll the reserves roll,
Also, if you take an allied Autarch, it'll come in on a 2+ turns 2-3. (auto turn 4+)
I didn't read any of the replies but my take on it is simple: Get 2 beastly units (maxed out wyches with haywires are awesome for just about everything or an actual Beast unit with 6 flocks and 10 khymera as well as a nice big hellion squad) and stick a 2+ invuln guy in front of each (Vect for one and the Baron for the other could be quite tasty) and try to set it up so they take most of the incoming fire which shouldn't be too hard in most cases (unless they are barraging your ass) and here's the big one to make this work against most things: Eldard tossing a fortune on each of the dangerous units and a doom on whatever you want to destroy! A 2+ invuln with rerolls should be able to tank alot of damage as you make your way to the enemy lines while your ravagers cover you from behind and try to take out anything that might seriously hamper your approach (like the aforementioned barrage douches).
Man, Reavers have gotten beastly in sixth. A 5+ cover save for moving a tenth of an inch? Potential 48 inch movement? Heat Lances cause an explosion 50% of the time they pen? Cover saves are nerfed allowing Bladevanes to do more damage on GEQ. Skilled Rider auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. Our assault phase movement, while more random, will on average place us further away from the enemy than before. Hammer of Wrath effectively gives us 4 attacks per model on the charge. Turbo-boosting no longer restricts you to moving in a straight line, you may turbo boost through an enemy unit, then curve around into LoS blocking terrain if possible, or out of enemy range at the very least.
I'm beginning to think these bad boys are worth their price tag. They're better tankhunters than before, their bladevanes can really reach out and touch people. They can weather overwatch in place of more fragile units such as wyches.
My question to you fine folk is the ideal loadout for Reavers. I've been using a simple 6x Reavers, 2x Heat Lances. I'm debating adding a cluster Caltrop or two to the unit for the better bladevanes. My qualm with this is bringing the cost of a 6 wound, toughness 4 unit to nearly 200 points. It's certainly more killy, but I'm not sure if I can swallow that price tag.
Lokas wrote:
My question to you fine folk is the ideal loadout for Reavers. I've been using a simple 6x Reavers, 2x Heat Lances. I'm debating adding a cluster Caltrop or two to the unit for the better bladevanes. My qualm with this is bringing the cost of a 6 wound, toughness 4 unit to nearly 200 points. It's certainly more killy, but I'm not sure if I can swallow that price tag.
I usually drop the heat lances in favor of the clusters but having both certainly is nice. Also the arena champ is not a chump, taking a power ax or maul on him can be good, or just a venom blade.
Flamers kill reavers as does protracted combat. I am running 2 units of 6 and the two charging together will put a major hurt on whatever they charge
People are making a big deal about Incubi's nerfs vs. 2+ saves but at the same time ignoring the huge buffs to the Klaivex. There's not too many characters out there (even few IC's) that can handle a Klaivex in a Challenge, even with a 2+ (Demiklaves=must take). So GH with a Term Wolf Guard? Throttle them.
Also, the change to FNP it's a pretty big buff for the Incubi's as this will give them a save against many of the weapons there tougher targets wield.
ShadarLogoth wrote:People are making a big deal about Incubi's nerfs vs. 2+ saves but at the same time ignoring the huge buffs to the Klaivex. There's not too many characters out there (even few IC's) that can handle a Klaivex in a Challenge, even with a 2+ (Demiklaves=must take). So GH with a Term Wolf Guard? Throttle them.
Also, the change to FNP it's a pretty big buff for the Incubi's as this will give them a save against many of the weapons there tougher targets wield.
The Klaivex just gets so expensive. Why demiklaves cost 20points on top of the power weapon the incubi already has is beyond me. 57 points to get one with Demiklaves and then you really need muderous assault if you want to deal with ICs and onslaught helps. That becomes 82 points very quickly for a 1wound T3 3+ save model. He wont kill any ICs before they get to strike him down.
If Murderous assault worked on all Characters it might be nice.
Exergy wrote:I usually drop the heat lances in favor of the clusters but having both certainly is nice. Also the arena champ is not a chump, taking a power ax or maul on him can be good, or just a venom blade.
Flamers kill reavers as does protracted combat. I am running 2 units of 6 and the two charging together will put a major hurt on whatever they charge
The problem with that is that you can't hit vehicles with your bladevane sweeps, relegating Reavers to a purely anti-infantry role. I've used Reavers to replace the blasterborn I took in 5th, and they've served me very well as tank-hunters thus far. Their mobility is to die for.
ShadarLogoth wrote:People are making a big deal about Incubi's nerfs vs. 2+ saves but at the same time ignoring the huge buffs to the Klaivex. There's not too many characters out there (even few IC's) that can handle a Klaivex in a Challenge, even with a 2+ (Demiklaves=must take). So GH with a Term Wolf Guard? Throttle them.
Also, the change to FNP it's a pretty big buff for the Incubi's as this will give them a save against many of the weapons there tougher targets wield.
The thing is, Klaivex's haven't gotten any better. At all. Nor have Demiklaives.
They've always been able to handle 2+ saves. Challenges are a buff, sure, but one that works both ways. A klaivex can be challenged the same as he can challenge others, drawing his attacks into a sergeant instead of a unit where it may do more good. It's a double edged sword, less of a buff and more of movement sideways.
The buff to FNP does help against power weapons, but it's weaker against the attacks that mooks throw out. So again, not a huge buff, more of a movement sideways. Especially since Incubi are expensive and rarely have wounds to spare.
Nevermind that you still need to get a Haemonculi to gain access to that pain token, and still need an archon to gain assault into terrain.
Incubi were a scalpel unit, capable of excising the enemy's most dangerous elite unit. They were our melee answer to 2+ saves. They can no longer do this. 4 attacks on the charge that ignore 2+ saves are not frightening to a unit of terminators.
The PGL only helps if you're charging out of cover. Which isn't a terrible idea, it gives wyches a 4+ against Overwatch.
But you can't count on it 100% of the time. If the enemy unit has a flamer, even worse.
Although this reinforces my point that you should weaken enemy units with shooting prior to assault to remove any potential flamers.
I'd still say the best course of action to mitigate Wych casualties from Overwatch is feeding the enemy something more durable or less expensive first. 45 point units of Warriors work exceedingly well for this task thanks to the wording on Fleet. You can reroll successful assault moves too. Charge the enemy. If they overwatch, make sure you don't get into combat to minimize your casualties. Wyches sweep in and do their thing. If the enemy holds off on their overwatch, make sure to get your warriors into base to base so they count as locked in combat and can't overwatch the wyches. You'll probably lose the whole unit this way, but it was only 45 points to begin with.
PGL would give you a 6+ cover save in the open, couple that save with FNP and you are saving 44% of overwatch wounds.
20 bolter shots, 3.34 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.87 unsaved, 1.24 get past FNP.
I don't know what the big deal is. I guess I just need to wait until more people actually play before the whole "wyches die to overwatch' hyperbole dies down.
Or if you just can't afford to lose 1 wych to 10 marines on overwatch, just charge them with the incredibly good reavers first, then the wyches can finish up.
Wyches are amazing this edition, but I see people calling them a dead unit?
To kill elite combat units with good saves, I think harlequin's might be the smartest answer. The survivability nerf they took is palpable, but I think its a bit more logical to go for rends to go through 2+ armor rather than spending that 87 points that Exergy mentioned as being a bit excessive.
I don't think I'll be doing a lot with incubi unfortunately.
I'm also seeing a lot of power axes popping up in DE lists. I'm not sure DE characters are going to be able to handle dropping down to initiative 1 during challenges. I'm just going to be accepting 2+ armor saves on all enemy units except against harlequins or my monstrous creatures, and just go with a venom blade for other characters.
I'm looking forward to setting some of my ideas down on the table and seeing what orks and doesn't.
When is the last time you saw a MEQ squad that had nothing but bolters?
Bolters don't scare me about Overwatch. If it's a unit of marines with just bolters, I will gladly charge my Wyches in there without back up.
But if that unit has one flamer, the damage done from overwatch is doubled at the very least.
D3 automatic hits that wound on a 3+, ignore cover and armor saves. You are very likely to jump from losing 1 wych to 3 or 4 if that MEQ squad has a single flamer in there.
And where is all this magical FnP coming from? Do they have a haemonculus attached to them? You know that ratchets their cost up by 50+ points, right? Did they already kill a unit? Chances are they have then already suffered casualties, making 3-4 wyches dying absolutely devastating.
Wyches are far from a dead unit. They're still quite good. They're just much much more limited than they used to be. You can't charge units with a flamer. You can't charge units with a 2+ save.
I'm personally using my Wyches as a dedicated anti-armor unit. 5 wyches in a Venom with haywire grenades. Between pitching grenades in the shooting phase and charging in the assault phase, should kill any vehicle in the game that isn't a flier. Can also bolster my Wracks in assaults should my Reavers go down or are otherwise unavailable to support the Frankenstein squad.
Lokas wrote:Wyches are far from a dead unit. They're still quite good. They're just much much more limited than they used to be. You can't charge units with a flamer. You can't charge units with a 2+ save.
I'm personally using my Wyches as a dedicated anti-armor unit. 5 wyches in a Venom with haywire grenades. Between pitching grenades in the shooting phase and charging in the assault phase, should kill any vehicle in the game that isn't a flier. Can also bolster my Wracks in assaults should my Reavers go down or are otherwise unavailable to support the Frankenstein squad.
Yep, you and I are thinking quite a bit alike here. They lost the ability to charge flamer units, and terminators (with any chance of doing anything but tarpitting) but gain the incredible ability to erase vehicles.
And I like where your head is at on using the small venom units. I think its either them, or 15 of them coming from a WWP into an Aegis defense line.
Mid-sized Wych units certainly have suffered. Especially in comparison to Wracks these days. Agonisers aren't as good and their special weapons can be removed too early. They're still durable in CC. I'm leaning towards using raider-sized wych squads as tarpits, or bully units. They can easily pick on Longfangs or Devastators in the back field. (Edit: Their grenades allow them to strike at initiative, which makes them such effective bully units. Forgot to mention this.) They can also tie up dedicated assault units for quite a while. Death Company is a good example. Denying them the charge cuts their number of attacks in half. Wyches can tie them up for half the game that way.
Another funny thing I just noticed by breezing over my rulebook on a hunch.
Shep wrote:PGL would give you a 6+ cover save in the open, couple that save with FNP and you are saving 44% of overwatch wounds.
20 bolter shots, 3.34 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.87 unsaved, 1.24 get past FNP.
I don't know what the big deal is. I guess I just need to wait until more people actually play before the whole "wyches die to overwatch' hyperbole dies down.
Or if you just can't afford to lose 1 wych to 10 marines on overwatch, just charge them with the incredibly good reavers first, then the wyches can finish up.
Wyches are amazing this edition, but I see people calling them a dead unit?
To kill elite combat units with good saves, I think harlequin's might be the smartest answer. The survivability nerf they took is palpable, but I think its a bit more logical to go for rends to go through 2+ armor rather than spending that 87 points that Exergy mentioned as being a bit excessive.
I don't think I'll be doing a lot with incubi unfortunately.
I'm also seeing a lot of power axes popping up in DE lists. I'm not sure DE characters are going to be able to handle dropping down to initiative 1 during challenges. I'm just going to be accepting 2+ armor saves on all enemy units except against harlequins or my monstrous creatures, and just go with a venom blade for other characters.
I'm looking forward to setting some of my ideas down on the table and seeing what orks and doesn't.
agree mostly
the overwatch thing is not really huge, but those 1-2 wounds you take come from the front, which can mean you dont get your charge off.
also whenever you roll 20 dice, you have a chance to wipe the squad. Often they will do no damage but sometimes they get lucky.
wychs are now best meat shield/tank hunters. Its the new venom spam, 5x wychs with haywire in a 2 SC venom is the same 125 points as the blaster/warrior squad. Except the wychs will average way more hullpoints taken off (less range though) and can tarpit for a turn in CC. I think incubi with drahzar + heamy in a raider (reserved if going 2nd) backed by the new haywire venomspam is going to be pretty boss this edition. Maybe 2 ravagers and a razorwing for heavy support. scourges with haywire as points allow, maybe a beat unit.
I think that is probably DE's best attempt right now.
Some things I've noticed from reading over this thread and going through the rulebook.
1) The Haemy/Wych Assault
-- There is still the downside of the Hamey not having fleet, only units composed entirely of models with fleet can use fleet.
So if you want your fleet, leave your Haemy in the raider or detached and charge him in first
I'm not sure what the poster meant when he said
meneroth2 wrote:and with the changes to fleet it doesnt matter as much to keep the hemonculus with you than it would to leave him back in the raider
2) Haywaire Grenades
-- I'm confused as to why people think Haywire grenades are going to be the #1 outright vehicle killer. Unless I'm misinterpreting the posts about it, it seems like the consensus is that you can just kill vehicles with Haywire Grenades. However, as per page 61 of the BRB
Only one grenade(of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase
Yes you may roll that 6 and 6 and make it explode, but IMO you will likely still need some lances to bring a vehicle down to it's last HP. But, yes, wyches can finish off vehicles before a charge.
Anyway, I'm really excited to get my Dark Eldar on the field and give them a go. Currently working on creating a list based on this new edition and from what I've been reading it seems like there is some room for some cool new builds.
You can only throw one grenade in the shooting phase.
You may then charge and use those grenades in the assault phase.
A haywire grenade that hits 67% of the time in the shooting phase and removes a hull point 83% of the time it hits.
Then you charge, five haywire grenades that hit 67% of the time and remove a hull point 83% of the time. The one exception being walkers, which instead are only hit 50% of the time at the worst.
6 grenades get 4 hits, those 4 hits are most likely each going to strip a hull point, turning a land raider into a wreck instantly. This is combining shooting and assault into one formula, and the formula shifts slightly when walkers are involved, by 5 man wych units are currently one of the greatest vehicle killers in the game.
reaper501 wrote:Haywaire Grenades
-- I'm confused as to why people think Haywire grenades are going to be the #1 outright vehicle killer. Unless I'm misinterpreting the posts about it, it seems like the consensus is that you can just kill vehicles with Haywire Grenades. However, as per page 61 of the BRB
Only one grenade(of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase
Yes you may roll that 6 and 6 and make it explode, but IMO you will likely still need some lances to bring a vehicle down to it's last HP. But, yes, wyches can finish off vehicles before a charge.
Anyway, I'm really excited to get my Dark Eldar on the field and give them a go. Currently working on creating a list based on this new edition and from what I've been reading it seems like there is some room for some cool new builds.
And IMO, new is always good to me.
you charge and deal with them in assault as normal. even just 5 wyches have a chance to glance a moving landraider to death.
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Lokas wrote:You can only throw one grenade in the shooting phase.
You may then charge and use those grenades in the assault phase.
A haywire grenade that hits 67% of the time in the shooting phase and removes a hull point 83% of the time it hits.
Then you charge, five haywire grenades that hit 67% of the time and remove a hull point 83% of the time. The one exception being walkers, which instead are only hit 50% of the time at the worst.
6 grenades get 4 hits, those 4 hits are most likely each going to strip a hull point, turning a land raider into a wreck instantly. This is combining shooting and assault into one formula, and the formula shifts slightly when walkers are involved, by 5 man wych units are currently one of the greatest vehicle killers in the game.
Overwatch on its own is not what's killing Wyches, though it's not helping. It's everything. Oh sure, Overwatch only results in one or two dead wyches. What's the big deal?
The big deal is that is 1-2 dead wyches before you get to fight, and therefore 3-6 fewer attacks during that close combat. Given that the margin for beating marines was close before, that margin has now narrowed significantly, as stock marines are killing FAR more wyches than normal (snapfire prekilling, more marines surviving from fewer Wych attacks, and the FNP nerfs double dipping you on the rape train) Sure, if you have an Agonizer, you're still great against normal marines. That's fine, and honestly I NEVER engaged Termies in CC. I shot the bajeezus out of them. In that way, FNP is a nerf. I never (or very rarely) sent my girls against the enemy's CC forces. Why should I do that? I'm Dark F*%&ING ELDAR. _I_ choose were my engagements happen. _I_ decide who dies and when. I don't let filthy little uptrumped monkeigh scumbags touch me with close combat units! I revel in their frustrated outrage when I shoot their assault units and then assault their standard troops. So why did power weapons cutting through my FNP matter? It didn't.
Yet now, I take casualties before I hit, I get INTO combat less often than before (due to dismounting, fleet nerfs and random charge ranges,) and if I DO manage to kill that one unit, what happens? I break it and it runs. If I fail to catch it, it can rally even if I'm within 6". If I do catch it, the other units nearby rapid fire me to death, which is far easier as m only available save went from a 4+ to a 5+. Oh sure, that happened before, but more Wyches were alive after that combat (often times the entire unit) which made them a genuine THREAT, soaking up as much as two squads worth of rapid fire before they died. Now THAT'S a distraction.
I guess I could use them as vehicle killers, but I still need them as scorers, neh? Are we certain that I wouldn't be better served by cheaper, longer ranged, and fastly SAFER warrior squads? Oh I'm certain I would be. If the meta shifts away from vehicles, those warrior squads get more efficient against infantry. If the meta STAYS vehicles, I think I can "make due" with the same 21+ lances I had before.
Sure, Grotesques, Talos, and Chronos all gained from FNP. But I never took any of those because they were too expensive for what they did. Now that WWP is functionally extinct, they are even more expensive for their purported role.
I have been trying, but havent used them enough to decide if its worth keeping. So far I have only been able to shoot them via snapshot, so no luck atm:(
Lokas wrote:Man, Reavers have gotten beastly in sixth. A 5+ cover save for moving a tenth of an inch? Potential 48 inch movement? Heat Lances cause an explosion 50% of the time they pen? Cover saves are nerfed allowing Bladevanes to do more damage on GEQ. Skilled Rider auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. Our assault phase movement, while more random, will on average place us further away from the enemy than before. Hammer of Wrath effectively gives us 4 attacks per model on the charge. Turbo-boosting no longer restricts you to moving in a straight line, you may turbo boost through an enemy unit, then curve around into LoS blocking terrain if possible, or out of enemy range at the very least.
I'm beginning to think these bad boys are worth their price tag. They're better tankhunters than before, their bladevanes can really reach out and touch people. They can weather overwatch in place of more fragile units such as wyches.
My question to you fine folk is the ideal loadout for Reavers. I've been using a simple 6x Reavers, 2x Heat Lances. I'm debating adding a cluster Caltrop or two to the unit for the better bladevanes. My qualm with this is bringing the cost of a 6 wound, toughness 4 unit to nearly 200 points. It's certainly more killy, but I'm not sure if I can swallow that price tag.
At the moment I am looking at making a 6 man reaver unit with 2 heat lances and then throwing in a Jetbike Autarch with a Laser Lance and Fusion Gun, His S6 AP3 attacks on the charge with the Laser Lance should hopefully give the unit the punch when charging that it needs to really use the drugs and the arena champion to the full effect and make it a very versatile unit, but it costs to put the Autarch in there, and I wouldn't do it if I didn't also want the reserves bonus to protect my deep strike heavy Sliscus force from reserves penalties.
Xeriapt wrote:Has anyone tried out wracks/haemies with hexrifles? Seems they would be good being able to get precision shots and all.
Similarly to above with the Autarch in the jetbike unit, one good use I have seen for a hexrifle haemonculi is throwing him into a ranger/pathfinder unit allied into the force, it adds to their firepower a bit and grants them night vision, although it would mean being unable to use their infiltrate and scouts. My Haemonculi will be starting with my Jetbikes to give them a pain token and then leaving that unit to join up with the sniper team on turn 1,
Xeriapt wrote:Has anyone tried out wracks/haemies with hexrifles? Seems they would be good being able to get precision shots and all.
Well, I used Haemies to accompany Wyches in Raiders. Since they cannot FoF they stayed onboard sniping with their hexrifles. This is an even more viable tactics in 6th due to precision shots.
I know this is not a very competitive tactic, But I have been using a 8 man incubi squad with drazhar & haemy. Put them in a raider, get stuck in, rape entire armies.
So far I havent had any problems, but my luck has been greatly the past 5 games
Ravager with Dissies 105pts
- Flickerfield
Total: 115pts
Ravager with Dissies 105pts
- Flickerfield
Total: 115pts
Aegis Defense line with Comms Relay 70pts.
Total: 2000pts. Uses 2 FoCs to get the extra elites and heavies. Venoms hunt infantry, Wyches hunt vehicles, Harlequins sit in the aegis for a 2+ save with the characters and true born. Comms relay makes sure you have a great chance at getting the Voidravens on turn 2. Voidravens hunt AV13-14 stuff or other flyers if necessary. The ravagers hunt light vehicles and terminators...or basic infantry as needed. As the game progresses the harlequins can be on the move to clean up. This is 1 of 8 lists I plan on testing soon.
First, where does the haemonculus go? With the harlequins? You know they don't benefit from Power from Pain, yeah? Or do you just want him having a 2+ cover save and a hexrifle?
Second, Ravagers with Flickerfields are 115 points.
Yeah you went over about 20 points.. But I really like the list
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would use incubi instead of harlies. But that only because I like them alot, And my luck with them has seem to be great.
The Harlies are better bang-per-a-point than the incubi, especially this edition, with the 3+ cover save, VoT effect and 5+ invun, aswell as rending, option for meltapistols, etc.
First, where does the haemonculus go? With the harlequins? You know they don't benefit from Power from Pain, yeah? Or do you just want him having a 2+ cover save and a hexrifle?
Second, Ravagers with Flickerfields are 115 points.
Haemmy can go with harlies or trueborn. It really depends on where you want the token to go (several factors will determine this. What the Archon drug roll is, what Warlord Trait will be, and what the terrain will be like). Yes, I am fully aware that Harlies don't benefit from the token, but the Archon if he's in there does. Testing will determine where he'll be best placed.
Fixed my point totals above. Thanks for catching it.
People who think Wyches got a huge nerf in this edition don't really understand the purpose of Wyches, imo. Wyches were never a CC powerhouse unit. They rarely ever inflicted any real damage on the charge even in 5th edition, unless it was against armies like Guard or Tau. Against MEQs they would take a few rounds to kill them and, while sustaining relatively low damage, really took to long to do their job to really be called a powerhouse unit. In my experience they are a perfect Tarpit unit still, and, with the inclusion of Overwatch, really should no longer be charging large units of basic infantry unless they sacrifice the Haemonculus they should be toting along. They still excel as tarpit units for enemy elites. Taking a power axe on the Hekatrix and keeping her in the second row insures she will stay alive long enough to do damage is a good idea. They now to greater damage to vehicles as well. So, they are still an excellent unit, but they need to be played with a bit more finesse.
The new transport rules and fleet rules hurt them though, no argument there. I personally plan on fielding 5 of them in a venom without a hekatrix and with haywire grenades. They can hunt vehicles and still provide a turn or so challenge to stall enemy elite units. Although, 10 in a raider with HG's can completely surround and nuke a transport, killing all inside. Either way they'll still work.
Remember, tarpit, and you won't be far off. If you wanna kill stuff take Incubi, or better yet, Beastmasters. The guy who said Khymarae are the BnB for them is dead wrong, Razorwings inflict the same number of wounds on the charge, but with a 50% chance for the inflicted wound to ignore armor. Screen with the Khymarae and move all the razorwings into base to base on your initiative step. Aim to kill any power fists and watch the squad melt. Beastmasters are even more boss now
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Ovion wrote:Personally, while it's now 5+, I think Feel No Pain is better overall, as my wracks / grotesques / talos get it where they often didn't before.
Also, you can move 12" and maintain full firepower.
Fast Vehicles can move 12" and fire 2 weapons at full BS, the Raider has Aerial Assault letting it move 12" and fire all weapons at full BS, and flyers can move 18-30" or something and fire 4 weapons...
You're correct, although I remember reading that troops inside a transport could only fire snap shots if the vehicle moved more than 6". For that reason, I'll still be taking FF's on any Raider gunboats I have. I see flyers as being really good now, though the Razorwing can only fire 2 missiles a turn now. I'll have to see how bad it hurts my alpha strike before I'm sold.
Xeriapt wrote:Has anyone tried out wracks/haemies with hexrifles? Seems they would be good being able to get precision shots and all.
I use a haemi now with a hexrifle. I put him with some pathfinders to give them night vision. Other than that, the 1/6 chance to hit and then still allows armor is rather lackluster for a 65 point model
Sorry ISovereign, but you are absolutely incorrect about wychs.
Saying that I don't understand wychs in 5th is laughable.
I have a couple best general trophies that disagree with you.
In 5th, I ran 2x 10 wychs (sans haemy to again go against the conventional wisdom) and a 9x bloodbride unit with a succubus. Of course the usual trueblasters/warriors in venoms and ravagers accompanied them. The wychs, while maybe taking 2-3 rounds of combat to completely wipe basic MEQs, still won consistently. You could even assault a TEQ unit with a not unreasonable chance of success, and the bloodbrides+succubus literally never lost a fight. Never. Nothing could stop Succubus/bloodbrides because they were always softened up just enough to go down. Any unit strong enough to fight them off was expensive enough that they could be softened up by the resulting superiority I would have in firepower. That's how wychs worked in 5th, and I have dozens of games/wins under my belt demonstrating this.
In 5th wychs were a one-dimensional assault unit. They could eventually grind down most units in assault, and anything they couldn't eventually grind down as is, they could just wait to soften up first with shooting from the rest of the army and then execute their 1-dimensional plan of winning the war of attrition.
This has changed significantly in 6th. Overwatch makes this narrow margin of victory non-existant. Losing a few models before the start of assault means you average slightly less dead opponents and slightly more dead wychs every round. The narrow margin for winning the war of attrition is no longer usable. It is not just overwatch that makes it unusable either, its the nerf to fleet and vehicle assault range as well. Changing the assault range means you need to start closer. This means your plane is going to go down to rapid fire bolters much more often before you even have a chance to set up your assault. Even if you do get the chance to set up your assault, overwatch removing from the front, and the higher chance that you won't make your assault given the variance of 2d6 assault ranges, makes wychs a bad bet.
Wychs are now a bad bet due to slight reductions in every area they were good: assault range, assault power (agonizers), durability of transports (as precarious as that was to start with!) and finally durability (FNP & overwatch).
When I say bad bet though, I'm talking about how they could be used in 5th.
Now to the present. With all these slight changes adding up to a poor gamble, wychs need another niche. As it so happens, haywire is incredible now. Since wychs are the most abundant source available, it only makes sense that wychs should be used as haywire grenade delivery systems.
So now we have wychs going from 5th cc/tarpit unit to a 6th vehicle buster.
The most obvious build for this purpose is the 125 point venom/5xhaywire unit. The only question is whether this is better than the 125 point blaster warrior/venom unit. That remains to be seen, as you are looking at the difference between range and strength of the vehicle busting. My impression is that the wychs will replace warriors as the go-to venom spam unit.
iSovereign wrote: Although, 10 in a raider with HG's can completely surround and nuke a transport, killing all inside
Okay, maybe I'm just not grasping how grenades work on transports, but I still don't see how assaulting a transport with wyches(unless you plan on doing something else to the passengers next turn) is a good idea.
Yes, you will completely annihilate the transport, but those inside will just turn around and beat the heck out of the wyches(either shooting or CC). It was the same in 5th, I never found wyches assaulting vehicles to be a good idea unless they were Dreads or Tanks.
One other thing that people seem to keep forgetting about Wyches.
They have pistols.
Shooting does wounds same as assault, and Splinter Pistols ain't half bad at putting one or two wounds on an enemy unit before you charge. Premeasuring helps prevent yourself getting shot out of an assault, because unless you can roughly judge whether or not you'll make it into assault even before you move your transport in the movement phase. If it's more than 19 inches off, you might want to consider a slower advance, sticking to cover and biding your time for a more assured charge next turn. I've rarely had the random charge distance screw me out of an assault, because I premeasure and ignore the risky long-reach assaults for more likely closer charges. If you're sitting 2-3" from the enemy, blowing a model or two away with your little pistols ain't going to force a failure.
Also, I'm going to express a radical idea.
I'm beginning to think Ravagers aren't worth it anymore. In a meta where it's easier to glance tanks to death, 5x wyches with haywires and a venom can more reliably remove vehicles from the board while putting out long range anti-infantry fire. Reaver Jetbikes are better and can kill tanks more effectively with their AP 1 lances, so can Scourges with Haywire blasters or Heat Lances. Our fliers, while more pricey, are either just as capable of tank-hunting, or almost just as capable while boasting greater durability and an anti-infantry option.
I think I may be retiring my Ravagers when GW makes a Voidraven kit.
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reaper501 wrote:
iSovereign wrote: Although, 10 in a raider with HG's can completely surround and nuke a transport, killing all inside
Okay, maybe I'm just not grasping how grenades work on transports, but I still don't see how assaulting a transport with wyches(unless you plan on doing something else to the passengers next turn) is a good idea.
Yes, you will completely annihilate the transport, but those inside will just turn around and beat the heck out of the wyches(either shooting or CC). It was the same in 5th, I never found wyches assaulting vehicles to be a good idea unless they were Dreads or Tanks.
Glancing to death creates a wreck, not an explosion. If the enemy cannot disembark from the vehicle's access points or is unable to emergency disembark (VERY easily accomplished with 10 wyches) it is automatically destroyed.
Assaulting transports with 10 wyches is a phenomenal idea in this edition. Spread them out, cover every inch of the hull to prevent emergency disembarks and watch the enemy forfeit the unit inside.
Draco, I agree with you that Wyches got a CC nerf, and that they're not as good at being a front line assault unit as they used to be. I guess I've always seen them as a tarpit unit though, best used for a counter assault to tie up enemy elites while I shoot the basic Troops to death. But that's just my style of play. I'm glad Bloodbrides worked so well for you, I never really took them because the meta was so vehicle heavy in 5th that I felt I had to take Blasterborn.
I was disappointed that Wyches can't assault everything and win anymore, and I'm thinking that they fit more into the niche you outlined at the end of your post. That's certainly how I'll be fielding them. I always knew they would win in 5th, I was just saying I wouldn't consider them a powerhouse unit because of how long it took them to do the job.
Glancing to death creates a wreck, not an explosion. If the enemy cannot disembark from the vehicle's access points or is unable to emergency disembark (VERY easily accomplished with 10 wyches) it is automatically destroyed.
Assaulting transports with 10 wyches is a phenomenal idea in this edition. Spread them out, cover every inch of the hull to prevent emergency disembarks and watch the enemy forfeit the unit inside.
Okay, I gotcha. If that's the case then heck yes, wyches are a great option for AT. I think I will be making them AT/Tarpit units as opposed to killy
Also, with your idea about Ravagers, with this new niche for wyches, our flyers, and the buff of our bikes, as well as the rise of the 2+ save and the near disappearance of Dark Eldar AP2 weapons, I think Ravagers will be used as Anti-Infantry platforms with Disintigrater Cannons as opposed to lances.
I'm beginning to think about a list that looks something like this for 1500 points.
Duke Sliscus - 150
Kabalite Trueborn - 216
Base (x8)
Shardcarbines (x6)
Splinter Cannons (x2)
Raider w/ Night Shields
Wyches - 125 (x4)
Base (x5)
Haywire Grenades
Venom w/ extra splinter cannon
Reaver Jetbikes - 156 (x2)
Base (x6)
Heat Lance (x2)
Voidraven Bomber - 195 (x2)
Base
Shatterfield Missiles (x4)
Night Shields
I'm aware that it's quite probably more than a few points over, and there's some stuff I can trim like cutting down the dakkaborn deathstar, but this is really striking me as a promising list. The Combat Drug rerolls beef up my minimalist Reaver and Wych squads so that they might actually kill things, there's plenty of splinter cannon fire for infantry, plenty of haywire and heat lances and void lances for tanks.
Plus, the Duke's squad of trueborn is incredibly shooty and initiative 5 with two attacks per base. Between Overwatch and them swinging first against most charging enemies, that unit can handle itself in assault while posing a significant shooting threat.
Couple of suggestions for you. First, I personally don't think that the extra points you're having to pay for the SC's on the Trueborn is worth it for only one extra shot per guy. But otherwise looks promising.
You may want to reconsider swapping out Trueborn for Warriors with a SC and Splinter Racks. Maybe use your leftover points on another Wych Venom. At this point you only have 1 scoring unit that is likely to get wiped from Bolter fire.
Third, if you're shooting at rear armor (and you should with those Jetbikes) a Blaster is much more effective and versatile. It works from longer range, allowing you to play more with the 2d6" assault move to juke behind cover. And against rear armor has a better chance to penetrate, but a lower result on the damage table. Your call, but I prefer Blasters on my Jetbikes.
Also, you may just wanna take a Razorwing. For the amount extra you're spending to outfit the Voidravens with missiles, you could get another Ravager. The Void Lances aren't that much more worth it in lieu of taking another HS choice.
Got three games in this weekend. Lots of lightbulbs went off.
My first impression of the edition is that space marines and their ilk are really good, and then I realized why...
Non-space marine type models die very quickly when they break cover. For non-space marines, transports and terrain is incredibly important, and transports are very deadly to the T3 people.
Focus fire is actually very user friendly, as is just taking your shots from angles to chew away at exposed models.
I'm pretty sure I'm done with IG blobs, and going with an MSU platoon approach for my IG army, I played a game with MSU platoons behind my aegis defense line. It was solid.
Aegis defense lines right away sound like a very good choice for dark eldar. If half of your units were wracks that were built to score and liquify overwatch, and the other half were foot shooters like trueborn, reavers, and maybe even the monstrous creatues (still have never seen one in-game) and you had an aegis with a comms relay and a webway portal, I could see that owning a lot of the board, and requiring a lot of untraditional firepower to kill off.
I'm definitely going to build towards that list type, along with something very similar to Captain Karuthors' list.
By the way, don't worry about terminators this edition. We've got that covered. You just need to continually remember that we don't deal with them in close combat. Disintegrator ravagers were murdering assault terminators in droves. I faced 15 termies in a 1500 point game, and 15 termies in a 1750 game, and they weren't the issue, oddly enough, it was heavy support vehicles firing on me from the backfield (predators are pretty good now) and vendettas were a pretty big problem for me since I didn't run any dogfighters.
The reason I took the splinter cannons was for overwatch, actually. Normally it's 4 shots if you move, but Overwatch means that you're hitting on 6's anyways, so use all 6 of your shots. You're statistically going to score at least one hit that way. I am thinking about dropping them though.
I actually have 4 scoring units in that list, which is usually more than enough at 1500 points.
I also quite prefer the heat lances on my Jetbikes. While the Blaster does have a longer effective range, I'd much rather have the 50% chance to get a kill than the 33% chance, and the melta (or armorbane is it now) means that I'm statistically scoring more penetrating hits against every armor value. Plus, they're actually cheaper, which has always amused me.
I am considering swapping the voidravens for razorwings. I'm not sure just yet. I may very well have to, what with the lack of a proper Voidraven kit.
That looks like a pretty promising list. I see what you did with the layout, you actually have 4 5 man wych squads not just the one, I was confused at first as well.
However, I might also try a Warrior Gunboat instead of Trueborn as the Trueborn Deathstar unit will be an easy choice of target and will likely get gunned down relatively quickly.
A Warrior squad might make your opponent make a more difficult decision on what to target.
Still, really good list(and fun and different to boot).
Musing over my list last night and I am now firmly of the opinion that the greatest threat to DE this edition is AV12 flyers in general and Vendettas in particular.
I'm really struggling to find the best way of dealing with air-cav
Taking a fortification will take care of one flyer if you're lucky before it gets taken down (and most IG players will nuke it on turn 1 if they have half a brain and not even give you a chance). Non of our ground units have skyfire and the ground units that can put out enough shots to (semi)-reliably hit on 6's are incapable of damaging them (Disintegrators are only S5 and Splinter Cannons can't damage vehicles).
That leaves our own flyers as the go-to choice, but we have a number of problems:
1. Each flyer takes up a heavy support slot, compared with IG getting up to 3 per fast attack slot, we can't win the numbers game.
2. Unless you can get behind them (and you can't guarantee that), Dissies are useless so Razorwings must take Dark Lances for dogfighting. a) 2 Dark Lances vs Vendetta AV12 is 2/3 (to hit) x 1/2 (to damage) x 2 shots = 0.67 of a hull point per turn with 0.44 rolls on the damage table. b) 3 Twin-linked Lascannon vs Razorwing AV10 is 3/4 (to hit) with automatic damage x 3 shots = 2.25 hull points per turn with 1.88 rolls on the damage table. In standard trim (without even the obligatory flickerfield) a Razorwing runs at 125pts compared to the Vendetta's 130.
3. Our other option, the voidraven. How do Void Lances compare? a) 2 Void Lances vs Vendetta AV12 is 2/3 (to hit) x 2/3 (to damage) x 2 shots = 0.89 of a hull point per turn with 0.67 rolls on the damage table. b) 3 Twin-linked Lascannon vs Voidraven AV11 is 3/4 (to hit) x 5/6 (to damage) x 3 shots = 1.88 hull points per turn with 1.5 rolls on the damage table. In standard trim (without even the obligatory flickerfield) a Voidraven runs at 145pts compared to the Vendetta's 130.
Now both the Razorwing and Voidraven can perform ground attack roles, but the Voidraven is limited to an anti-armour role without spending lots of points on missiles, and the Vendetta is a better tank hunter for the points.
The Razorwing comes equipped for ground attack and with Disintegrators, Splinter Cannon and Monoscythe Missiles runs at 145 with a Flickerfield and is a fantastic multi-role aircraft that is murder to infantry, light vehicles, monstrous creatures (and, significantly, flying monstrous creatures - don't take on Daemons or Tyranids without one of these babies ) but if you leave it in this setup is one less dogfighter from an already limited pool.
So what thoughts have people had on dealing with air-cav?
My opinion is that we don't really have a good dogfighting fighter, which is disappointing. I agree, the razorwings and voidravens aren't reliably dealing with the vendettas. Maybe scourges with D.lances or haywire guns scattered about, but that seems unlikely. If it's a 2000 point game you could take two fortifications, but I think a better solution would be to use Eldar allies for that; the sonic cannon, I hear, is a pretty good solution to pinging vehicles although I don't know how it works against flyers, but a squad of reapers or summat might be able to mass enough anti-armor shots to hit that six. I don't have an eldar codex, but I do have my dark and thing's are looking slim there... Also, the void bomb is now a marker, not a template, so maybe a voidraven could take one down with a bomb, but that seems a little wasteful.
Thinking about it, maybe zooming fighters with Disintegrators into their rear arc might work, it'd be a little easier than it sounds, i think. maybe? I wonder if jets can ram each other. But that's me listening to my ork friends too much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking about Warrior gunboats, I'm actually going to try taking a couple of large warrior blobs and sticking them behind a few groups of wracks. It would seem that wracks would make a pretty good anti-charge screen, really, able to advance, make a few liquifier shots, and let people charge into them with FNP and toughness 4, dealing another 2d3 template attacks per group on the overwatch attack. If they live, great, that's a unit you can charge freely with something beefier. If they die, then you've got about 52 splinter shots ready to finish the unit off. Add farseers for re-rolling hits & doom and that's a lot of scoring death to deal with.
I hate calling them blobs, though, because people keep comparing them to ork or IG blobs. And they're definitely not those.
Lokas wrote:I'm beginning to think about a list that looks something like this for 1500 points.
Duke Sliscus - 150
Kabalite Trueborn - 216
Base (x8)
Shardcarbines (x6)
Splinter Cannons (x2)
Raider w/ Night Shields
they shoot down the raider(pretty easy) if it explodes you take on average 6 wounds and make 2 saves. half your unit is dead. lord help you if a flamer walks up.
Lokas wrote:Yeah, that was written before I realized that all exploding vehicles are strength 4 these days.
I may just go for a cheap warrior gunboat after all.
any points you can free up for cluster caltrops would be great. You can position your reavers anywhere with a non linear turbo move and then wounds allocate from the reavers to the closest model. With the stupid number of wounds they put out you can snipe characters and special weapons.
Dracofactory wrote:My opinion is that we don't really have a good dogfighting fighter, which is disappointing. I agree, the razorwings and voidravens aren't reliably dealing with the vendettas. Maybe scourges with D.lances or haywire guns scattered about, but that seems unlikely. If it's a 2000 point game you could take two fortifications, but I think a better solution would be to use Eldar allies for that; the sonic cannon, I hear, is a pretty good solution to pinging vehicles although I don't know how it works against flyers, but a squad of reapers or summat might be able to mass enough anti-armor shots to hit that six. I don't have an eldar codex, but I do have my dark and thing's are looking slim there... Also, the void bomb is now a marker, not a template, so maybe a voidraven could take one down with a bomb, but that seems a little wasteful.
Thinking about it, maybe zooming fighters with Disintegrators into their rear arc might work, it'd be a little easier than it sounds, i think. maybe? I wonder if jets can ram each other. But that's me listening to my ork friends too much.
I don't see the Vibro Cannon as being very practical, you still need to roll to hit against BS, which means you still need to snap shot it to target the flyer, and because the line has to pass through units, not just over them, you won't be able to hit ground units with the same line you hit flyers with, all this for at best a single glancing hit a turn.
Reapers aren't going to be the people to turn to for AV12 flyers either, they are mostly only S5, also, Void Mines still can't hit flyers.
The issue is that neither Eldar variety has Twin Linked Autocannons to bring to bear, The only close thing is a Falcon's Pulse laser, which you can pair with a missile launcher for 3 S8 shots a turn, even that will only go so far though, the only other viable weapon in that vein would be a bunch of scatter lasers on War Walkers and/or Vypers but you are looking at 50 points a pop for either of those at a minimum and they are only S6.
Exergy wrote:
Lokas wrote:Yeah, that was written before I realized that all exploding vehicles are strength 4 these days.
I may just go for a cheap warrior gunboat after all.
any points you can free up for cluster caltrops would be great. You can position your reavers anywhere with a non linear turbo move and then wounds allocate from the reavers to the closest model. With the stupid number of wounds they put out you can snipe characters and special weapons.
Keep in mind with this non-linear turbo move, that the bladevane line will still be a direct line between the start and end points of the move.
I've been playing with 3 vendettas, very early on in the game against aggressive armies I am forced to either hover or bug out.
If you've got three of them, and they move the min 18" with a little bit of an angle, I'll get shots off on the turn they arrive and then be forced into that tough decision. And this is against slower marine armies. If you built a faster, up close and personal dark eldar list, you can really curtail the amount of shooting that vendettas can do to you before they hover, and when they hover, they are DEAD.
Alternately, build a list that doesn't care about accurate lascannon fire. WWP foot shooting armies that have purchased aegis defense lines can ignore the non-scoring, non-denial units all game long.
The flyer rules aren't really blowing me away with my vendettas, in fact, I think that you really earn that snap fire only status by trading in jink and having to jump through hoops with max turn radius (and the devastating 'no turning after movement' caveat) and minimum distances.
Just work towards whatever counts for survivability for dark eldar, (being far away or being in cover) and make sure you have infantry kill and vehicle kill. And if you do go with a vehicle approach, take some flyers to shoot down vendettas. It might not be points efficient, but you'd rather have them shooting at your own flyers than at any transports you've got.
And I am really glad our flyers aren't fast attacks, I have been loving the reavers and i expect great things from beast packs too, just as soon as I can decide how I want them equipped.
If you take a wych squad and give the Hecitrix the 10 point power weapon you may model it into one of three (four?) legal configurations as you see fit.
Axe
Maul
Sword
lance/spear(?) - I don't have the book, I cant remember if this actually exists or not.
This is not modeling for advantage or anything of the sort. It is just one of the different configurations that power weapons now fit under.
Jayden63 wrote:If you take a wych squad and give the Hecitrix the 10 point power weapon you may model it into one of three (four?) legal configurations as you see fit.
Axe
Maul
Sword
lance/spear(?) - I don't have the book, I cant remember if this actually exists or not.
This is not modeling for advantage or anything of the sort. It is just one of the different configurations that power weapons now fit under.
Foo wrote:Hmm. I just realized Lelith has Plasma Grenades. That means she now has an 8" S4, AP4 blast template that can only ever scatter 3" (her BS is 9).
That might be fun to actually try!
OH YEAH, Nice Frikken Cacth man!
I've been begging for some kind of anything for Lilith to use her 9 BS skill on, even if it was something silly and janky. Too bad they didn't give her Haywire...
By RAW you're quite right, It simply says that her attacks ignore armour saves, not her melee attacks..
RAI ? Who knows..
Automatically Appended Next Post: To take this even further, would that mean that if she was manning a gun with ,say, AP 6, it would ignore armour saves also?
Yeah it becomes iffy then, it says to use all her relevant special abilities, but is it still "her attack" so to speak?
I think it's pretty clear that it's not intended, it is more of something I would keep in my back pocket in case my opponent started rules lawyering me.
Drunkspleen wrote:Yeah it becomes iffy then, it says to use all her relevant special abilities, but is it still "her attack" so to speak?
I think it's pretty clear that it's not intended, it is more of something I would keep in my back pocket in case my opponent started rules lawyering me.
Maybe, but I could kind of see the sickest gladiator in the universe (and best shot in the universe) capable of slinging a grenade right in the perfect crevice of some ones armor.
DarthSpader wrote:wow.. lillith just got a lot better for me...
it makes her better sure, now she has a shooting attack that isnt bad. But vect has an even better shooting attack arguably and it heals wounds. Does that make him great, not really.
Foo wrote:Hmm. I just realized Lelith has Plasma Grenades. That means she now has an 8" S4, AP4 blast template that can only ever scatter 3" (her BS is 9).
That might be fun to actually try!
OH YEAH, Nice Frikken Cacth man!
I've been begging for some kind of anything for Lilith to use her 9 BS skill on, even if it was something silly and janky. Too bad they didn't give her Haywire...
Thanks. I nearly missed it because I totally ignored her BS in 5th.
I got a game in earlier today with a slightly modified list to the one I posted earlier because of models I didn't have. I ended up borrowing a pair of my friend's Razorwing fighters, and on a whim proxied one as a Voidraven with two shatterfield missiles. The game was against an infantry-heavy guard army with three vanilla leman russes.
The MVP of that game had to be the Voidraven and my Jetbikes. The Jetbikes took down two of the Leman russes and devastated his ranged mini-blobs while the Voidraven took down more than half a blob with its missiles, the third leman russ and killed my friend's warlord with a well placed void mine.
I have to say, the Razorwing was a little disappointing. It got shot down on turn 3 after doing good damage with its missiles to a blob, but it bit it early when it was fired upon by autocannons. It would have done severely more damage if it had been able to fire all 4 of its missiles in a turn like it could in 5th. For this same reason, I'd say that it's not worth it to give a voidraven a full compliment of missiles. Two were more than enough to make a major impact in the game. The Void Lances performed exceptionally against the heavier armor, but this is to be expected. Not sure how they'd perform as a dogfighter. The extra pip of armor on the Voidraven also saved it from potentially sharing the same fate as its brother.
The one questionable thing that came up was whether or not I could use a void mine on the turn I flew off the board with the voidraven. Because the bomber came in on the bottom of turn 2, blew its load all over a blob, then jetted off the table edge to avoid being shot down like the Razorwing and dropped its mine on the command squad. Ultimately, me and my opponent rolled off for it and I won. I may make a thread in YMDC about this.
Another thing I noticed was that the night shields on the flyers didn't do a damn thing as they were always being shot with longer-ranged weapons. Autocannons and lascannons and the like. I may replace them with flickerfields in the future, or nothing at all.
I'm definitely favoring the Voidraven w/ 2x Shatterfield missiles though. That thing really impressed me with the amount of fire it could soak up and dish out in return.
Lokas wrote:
Another thing I noticed was that the night shields on the flyers didn't do a damn thing as they were always being shot with longer-ranged weapons. Autocannons and lascannons and the like. I may replace them with flickerfields in the future, or nothing at all.
I'm definitely favoring the Voidraven w/ 2x Shatterfield missiles though. That thing really impressed me with the amount of fire it could soak up and dish out in return.
Flicker fields are a must on fliers as they need to go into Evade mode to get the jink save. The night shield, well yes autocannons dont really care but twin linked heavy bolters might. Remember you measure to the hull of the flier so if you are 12" off the ground that distance gets added(vector sum, Pythagorean theorem) to the range.
Unfortuneatly it no longer effect night fighting, so you are not going to get stealth or shrouded out of it.
That does make sense. It'll save you a turn of only being able to fire snap shots. By the time my Voidraven came in on 4th, all of his autocannon and lascannon teams had been dealt with by bladevanes and venom fire, so I didn't need to worry about getting shot at with anything but lasguns.
I'm still not sold on the night shields though. It seems too small of a niche, as Heavy Bolters don't worry me to begin with. A twin linked heavy bolter will nail a single shot, which then has a 1/6 chance of glancing a Voidraven's front or side armor. You'd need 18 twin-linked heavy bolters to glance a Voidraven to death. I can see the appeal against 36" range weapons like if you're fighting another DE army, but it's such a niche role on the voidravens that I'm not sure if it's worth it.
Lokas wrote:The one questionable thing that came up was whether or not I could use a void mine on the turn I flew off the board with the voidraven. Because the bomber came in on the bottom of turn 2, blew its load all over a blob, then jetted off the table edge to avoid being shot down like the Razorwing and dropped its mine on the command squad. Ultimately, me and my opponent rolled off for it and I won. I may make a thread in YMDC about this.
I feel like I'm missing something, but how can you use the missiles on the same turn that the Voidraven leaves the board?
Not the missiles. The mine. I came in turn 2, blew my missile load and left the board top of turn 3 in my movement phase, passing over the command squad and dropping the mine in the process.
My bad, should've mentioned that there was a turn between firing the missiles and leaving the board.
His argument was that a model could not make an attack when it was off the board/in reserves. Since the Voidraven enters reserves the instant it leaves the board, it couldn't drop the void mine after moving over the unit because it counts as the Voidraven using a weapon, and how can it use a weapon when it's off the board?
I dunno though. Couldn't I have just moved the minimum distance, resolved the void mine, and then continued through my movement phase and off the board? Besides, even though I moved off the board, I still fulfilled all the rest of the requirements to drop the void mine.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think you would be able to still use your void mine...
After all, this edition is all about being "cinematic" and what's more cinematic than the jet screaming over their heads dropping a huge bomb before screeching off into the sky (probably whilst doing some aeronautical acrobatics) to return and attack again?
DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think you would be able to still use your void mine...
After all, this edition is all about being "cinematic" and what's more cinematic than the jet screaming over their heads dropping a huge bomb before screeching off into the sky (probably whilst doing some aeronautical acrobatics) to return and attack again?
On quasi-related note, I'm going in today for another round of 6th edition experimentation. I'll be borrowing quite a few models from the display case to use as proxies. This is why you make friends with the manager. Anyways, this is the list I'll be using;
May throw some bits and ends around, seeing as I'm about 70 points shy of 1500. I'm pretty confident about this list though. The Baron's synergy with beastpacks has gotten far better since they move at the same speed now, and he comes with fleet so he doesn't prevent them from rerolling their charge distance. I'll let you know how it all turns out though. If I had a camera, I'd take pictures of the menagerie of models that'll compose this insane idea.
The baron gives the beasts grenades. Another idea I like is taking the baron with jetbikes. Although he cannot turbo with the bikes, he can assault with them, gives them grenades and his stealth gives the bikes a 3+ stock coversave so they need not turbo.
On quasi-related note, I'm going in today for another round of 6th edition experimentation. I'll be borrowing quite a few models from the display case to use as proxies. This is why you make friends with the manager. Anyways, this is the list I'll be using;
May throw some bits and ends around, seeing as I'm about 70 points shy of 1500. I'm pretty confident about this list though. The Baron's synergy with beastpacks has gotten far better since they move at the same speed now, and he comes with fleet so he doesn't prevent them from rerolling their charge distance. I'll let you know how it all turns out though. If I had a camera, I'd take pictures of the menagerie of models that'll compose this insane idea.
I like this idea. I would probably take Razorwings over a Voidraven, but it looks very fast and hard hitting.
I ended up throwing one cluster caltrops on each reaver squad. Would've added two per squad, but I'd be points over. I may see if I can cut anything to fit it, if not, they performed phenomenally today regardless. My one and only game of the day was against Blood Angels. We played Purge the Alien on short table edges.
For my warlord trait, I went with personal and ended up with Master of Manoeuvre. Initially, I thought this was to be useless. On the contrary, it tore a hole in my opponent's flank and scored me multiple kill points. Thanks to a suggestion from the manager at my FLGS, I attached Baron to a bike unit and had them outflank. They'd come in on turn 3 and nuke a Vindicator as soon as they came on. The 3+ cover save (as exergy mentioned) kept them from wilting to return fire. I think the Personal trait tree is exceedingly good for the Baron in this list, seeing as he has options as to where he wants to be. He can make the most out of whatever roll he gets.
That said, I've found my sweet spot with the Voidravens. I'll be taking this kit for them in the rest of my games. Two shatterfields is really all you need to really decimate an enemy infantry unit. I'd like to see if you'd need to fire more than one at an MSU T3 army, but I'm thinking not. My opponent's list was two vindicators, a storm raven, tycho and a small death company squad and some assault marines with jump packs. Two of the assault marine squads got absolutely savaged by the voidraven fire, and were cleanly picked up by the venoms. His stormraven proved to be nigh useless. It came in turn 2, wiped a venom off the table and wiffed trying to hit a second but was unable to fire upon a target the rest of the game. I moved everything within 18" of his table edge by aggressively pushing everything up the left side of the board so his fliers simply passed over me whenever they came on from reserves. My own fliers were incredibly dominant. They decimated infantry as soon as they showed up on turn 2, soaked up an impressive amount of return fire from the Stormraven thanks to their 5++, killed the other vindicator on turn 3 by dropping void mines and then combined their 3 void lances to destroy the Stormraven on turn 5.
Haywire grenades actually aren't half bad for targeting fliers. Since they're a shooting attack measured from the hull, you're liable to get within range from the top of the venom's hull quite often. Especially if you're dancing around its blind spots. Being close enough to throw the haywire grenades also forced a rude choice on my opponent. Zoom and miss out on a turn of shooting, or hover to shoot and get swamped by wyches? Very handy choice. The haywires ended up forcing the stormraven into locked velocity and stripping a hull point, making it all too easy to avoid since it could only move cruising speed the rest of the game.
I ended up losing 2 venoms, a wych squad, a full half of the beast squad and quite a few reavers (I got too reckless with them as the game went on) but at the end of the game, all that remained of his army was tycho with one wound, and 2 death company locked in combat with the baron, the beasts and 2 wych squads. He would have benefit greatly from sanguinary priests, though the sheer number of saves forced by the combination missiles and splinter cannon fire is sickening. Those two assault squads just evaporated in the first few turns, and the third assault squad was reduced by a full third from concentrated bladevane attacks before being assaulted by Baron and the beasts at the same time. The beastmaster squad is as good for allocation as it was in 5th. I paraded them up the board in an upside down L formation. One line was razorwing flocks, all facing the assault marines to soak up small arms fire while the other part of the formation was the khymera facing that vindicator looming nearby. It's a bit trickier now, but just as good.
My overall thoughts for the battle? Dark Eldar fast attack is incredibly good now. Incredibly good. Baron Sathonyx is a much more enticing option than before and makes a fantastic warlord. Popping from a table edge to vaporize a vindicator before splitting off to help the beastmasters while reavers made risky bladevane attacks was incredibly effective. Venoms are still amazing. I've found the sweet spot for Voidravens methinks. I didn't miss my three ravagers in the least.
I'm definitely going to start building this army up for myself, now that I've played it with proxies. It's a very flexible, hard hitting list. It means further prolonging me actually painting models, but ah. I'm so pleased with today's results that I'll get over it.
stewy37 wrote: I like this idea. I would probably take Razorwings over a Voidraven, but it looks very fast and hard hitting.
It depends on what you primarily want to use your fliers for tbh. Without allies Dark Eldar look like they will really struggle against enemy fliers (no Skyfire and Twin Linked units), which means your best way of dealing with them is taking your own fliers. Ironically enough the Voidraven Bomber is better for anti air than the Razorwing Fighter since its Lances are more powerful. If their aren't many fliers to deal with (or you have that covered with allies/forts) then you show up, unload everything (since you only brought 2 missiles), jink to avoid damage in return (which saves you 10 points for Flickers) and then fly off the board next turn while dropping your bomb. If you need to deal with fliers you make sure you arrive after them (which can include just flying straight off the board) and drop them as quickly as you can with S9 Lances.
I've got a couple of combos that I want to try out, the first is an Archon with 2 Pistols, Haywires, Djinn Blade and Shadowfield. A Soul Trap is optional, but definitely worth considering since it works with his Pistols as well so you can finish off MCs after your Venoms weaken them or Precision Shot characters out of units. Aside from looking awesome he is going to be a death sentence to almost every vehicle in the game, if he is within 6" he is almost certainly going to be able to get the charge to follow up the 2 BS7 S8 shots to the face. On top of that he still has the 2+ save which makes him a pain to deal with and still has a power weapon to threaten Marines. You could possible even get away with using the Djinn Blade as a Power Axe if you want to take on Terminators since its just listed as a Power Weapon. 2 of these guys with small Haywire Wych units as escorts could be fun.
There are heaps of combos with the Baron now due to the way the USRs work now. Actually being able to keep up with Beasts means I doubt you will see Hellions used much anymore, sure they are scoring, but Khymerae are cheaper, hit harder and are much more difficult to kill (particularly in combat, where you bleed combat res otherwise) even without factoring in how amazing Razorwings are. Hit and Run in particular makes Beasts insanely good, they won't get tarpitted by Dreads and can bounce around taking out weaker units to quickly make themselves Fearless while avoiding any enemy deathstars they can't deal with (basically just Paladins. Unfortunately their aren't many Fearless characters which can keep up with them (Baharroth lolz), but I think Karandras lets them Infiltrate which is pretty stupid (just buy him, then put Defence Lines in the middle of the board to hide behind). The only real change imo is that bringing 1-2 Clawed Fiends is probably worthwhile to run at the front of the unit to absorb some wounds (since if you have cover they do it much better than Khymerae).
If I can run Allies my list for my next game (2k) will probably look something like this:
Farseer, Doom, Warding 3 DAVU in 3 Falcons with EML (no Holos, but 5+ cover is fun) 2 x 5 Dragons in Serpents with Double Cannons Autarch with Laser Lance, Mandiblaster, Fusion Gun and Jetbike
+
Baron Beast Pack with 5 Masters, 10 Khymerae, 1 Clawed Fiend, 4 Razorwings 2 x 5 Blaster Warrior in Raiders (or Haywire Wyches, probably 1 of each) Voidraven with 2 Shatterfields and Night Shields
So the Autarch, Baron and Beasts make a very mobile Deathstar (it can't run, but still re-roll charges since the Autarch still has Fleet despite being a Jetbike), which is almost certainly going to hit combat by turn 2 and with Doom is going to chop up almost anything it touches. It kills ~6 Terminators on the charge or half a unit of Nob Bikers. Hit and Run means you bounce out at the end of your opponents turns and ensures you don't get bogged down (notably by Dreads, which can still be hurt by Haywires on the Autarch and Rends before you jump out and shoot it dead) and maximum benefit from the Laser Lance and charge bonuses. The Autarch will probably be the Warlord, which gives the Beasts ways of getting Furious Charge or FNP (which make them very very nasty) or Outflank (which combines nicely with his reserves buff, particularly on short edge deployment against gunlines). Its only obvious weakness is Ld, its only Ld10 but becomes Fearless once you kill 3 infantry units. With the new regroup rules and majority I6 you still have a reasonable chance of getting away from assaults and rallying straight away if you manage to end up facing a unit you can't kill.
Other than that you have a Seer for Psychic defence (who can still swap for Divination if you are facing a Flyer list etc), 3 solid scoring units + 2 more fragile ones, 2 Melta units to remove Land Raiders and the Voidraven for anti air/general troubleshooting (which shows up on a 2+ turn 2).
i would just point out that bombing runs, and the voidravens void mine are done in the movment phaze, while its on table. therefore its a legit move to bomb as your leaving the table. (because to leave, you have to move off the board edge)
as for DE fast attack..... my opinion on bikes and hellions has generally been poor.... but im willing to revisit them in 6th.
i will say i definitly agree the bombers and fighter are pure win, and now almost on par if not better then ravagers.
Powerguy wrote:
You could possible even get away with using the Djinn Blade as a Power Axe if you want to take on Terminators since its just listed as a Power Weapon.
Very sticky as the Djinn Blade is probably an unusual power weapon, and thus AP 3. The only way you might be able to argue it is that it is not a weapon, its a piece of wargear. Probably cant do that though.
Note though that you can look out sir the rebelling blade, which is good if you have a soul trap as Str6 attacks incoming on your archon are bad.
Yeah its a pretty safe to use now, you always got the 2+ Shadowfield against it but now you get a 2+ LOS on top of that (and of course still have to wound).
@ Darthspader. As a Fast Attack choice Hellions shouldn't even be considered, Beasts were already better and the gap has widened in 6th now that Beasts can climb buildings (and in fact ignore terrain completely aside from I penalties). As Troops with the Baron they are ok, but even when they are scoring Beasts probably outclass them. Bikes on the other hand are certainly viable, they were usable in 5th generally got buffed all round in 6th.
Ravagers definitely still have their place. They are still cheaper than the fliers and put out more anti tank firepower from earlier in the game. Imo part of the reason the fliers are so attractive for Dark Eldar is that they don't have many other options to deal with fliers otherwise.
I have played this list twice and it's trashed my opponents.
HQ:
Malys
Haemonculus with Venom Blade, Liquifier
Haemonculus with Venom Blade, Shattershard
Baron
TROOPS:
5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom
5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom
5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom
5 man wyche squad with haywires mounted in dual cannon Venom
ELITES:
10 man Grotesque squad with Aberration and Liquifier
3 man Trueborn with 2 DLs
3 man Trueborn with 2 DLs
HEAVY
Talos with Chainflails and TL heatlance
Talos with Chainflails and TL heatlance
Ravager with FF X3 DLs
Ravager with FF X3 DLs
Ravager with FF X3 DLs
Total: 1997pts
Uses 2 FoC to get the extra firepower, etc from the heavy slots.
Having the Grotes be immune to psychic BS is good, 3 tokens right away is good, Malys being able to reposition units is good, Baron +1 to go first and giving the grotes grenades, stealth, and HnR is hilarious. Tarpitting this unit is impossible...HnR makes the unit fast at times. The unit has 6 characters to deal with challenges, and 3 flame weapons that wall of death chargers + defensive grenades.
CaptKaruthors wrote:
10 man Grotesque squad with Aberration and Liquifier
put a venom blade on the aberration. if you are going to pay the +10pts for +1 attack then why not pay another 5pts, get an additional +1 attack for 2 CCWs(read it, it does not say replace) and always wound on 2+(usually with a reroll)
put a venom blade on the aberration. if you are going to pay the +10pts for +1 attack then why not pay another 5pts, get an additional +1 attack for 2 CCWs(read it, it does not say replace) and always wound on 2+(usually with a reroll)
Because he's Str5 (which is good enough in most cases), and because I don't have the points. I suppose I could replace the shattershard with a Liquifier and use the spare points to do so, but I haven't seen that it's necessary that the Aberration gets a venom blade. LOL.
Furthermore, The Liquifier Gun is reusable and cheaper.
Also better overall in my eyes.
So yes - drop shattershard, give liquifier, make your Abberation hit with 6 attacks on the charge, that have a 97% chance of wounding when they connect.
put a venom blade on the aberration. if you are going to pay the +10pts for +1 attack then why not pay another 5pts, get an additional +1 attack for 2 CCWs(read it, it does not say replace) and always wound on 2+(usually with a reroll)
Because he's Str5 (which is good enough in most cases), and because I don't have the points. I suppose I could replace the shattershard with a Liquifier and use the spare points to do so, but I haven't seen that it's necessary that the Aberration gets a venom blade. LOL.
str5 wounds plague marines and bikes on 4+ and MC on 5+. We are bound to see more of both ins 6th.
I would drop the FF off one of the ravagers. You usually get the 5+ jink anyway so you dont really need it.
Actually, you could drop the FF off all three ravagers. They're unlikely to get assaulted, and provided you move even the least bit, you'll e getting your Jink save. This may change if we see a rise in ignore cover weapons with longer ranges, but as of right now the only serious threat to those Ravagers would be Hydras. We'll be seeing less of them in this meta though, for while they remain frightfully effective against DE, their niche has narrowed significantly.
Lokas wrote:Actually, you could drop the FF off all three ravagers. They're unlikely to get assaulted, and provided you move even the least bit, you'll e getting your Jink save. This may change if we see a rise in ignore cover weapons with longer ranges, but as of right now the only serious threat to those Ravagers would be Hydras. We'll be seeing less of them in this meta though, for while they remain frightfully effective against DE, their niche has narrowed significantly.
So far for me... This has been a bad idea not getting FF. My opponent always steals initiative and my ravagers/raiders are helpless
Getting cover is far easier for Ravagers these days since you only need 25% coverage. You can park them in a staggered formation parked sideways, where a piece of terrain blocks 25% or more of the forward most ravager, giving a cover save, and that ravager blocks 25% of a ravager behind it, giving a cover save and so on and so forth. It's easy to get first turn cover saves without having to rely on jink. Plus, their narrow hull has always helped them deny LoS.
His strength 5 is exactly why you want him to get a venom blade.
Against MEQ, without it, he wounds on a 3+
Against MEQ, with it, he wounds on a rerollable 2+
You will only fail 1/36 to wound rolls.
This is for five measly points
He's strength 6 on a charge. Rarely does this unit see combat for longer than a round. Thus, most of the time they are getting the charge...or outright killing what they charge. This unit so far has performed admirably even vs. terminators. Nothing locks this unit down until the baron dies...which is unlikely to happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, The Liquifier Gun is reusable and cheaper.
Also better overall in my eyes.
So yes - drop shattershard, give liquifier, make your Abberation hit with 6 attacks on the charge, that have a 97% chance of wounding when they connect.
I like having the shard as a surprise when someone attempts a charge with something big. But yes, I see your point. I'll try a few games without it and see if it has any significant difference to how the unit deals out damage
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, you could drop the FF off all three ravagers. They're unlikely to get assaulted, and provided you move even the least bit, you'll e getting your Jink save. This may change if we see a rise in ignore cover weapons with longer ranges, but as of right now the only serious threat to those Ravagers would be Hydras. We'll be seeing less of them in this meta though, for while they remain frightfully effective against DE, their niche has narrowed significantly.
FF help if you don't go first. Additionally, they are helpful vs. the crackshot crap I have to face. Lastly, if it saves my ravagers...and makes my opponent have to shoot more shots in them to put them down...all the better. The 'jink' save isn't all that great. FFs now bounce failed terrain tests, etc. It's still a useful piece of wargear, dropping them adds 30pts back into my army...which doesn't buy me anything more of use.
CaptKaruthors wrote:He's strength 6 on a charge. Rarely does this unit see combat for longer than a round. Thus, most of the time they are getting the charge...or outright killing what they charge. This unit so far has performed admirably even vs. terminators. Nothing locks this unit down until the baron dies...which is unlikely to happen.
At strength 6, you're wiffing one out of six of your wounds. More if you're fighting a monstrous creature or a Necron CC unit.
With a venom blade, you only wiff one out of thirty-six wounds. Plus, I mean. It's five points. I really don't see why you wouldn't take it. It's insanely cheap, and multiplies your killing power by a magnitude of 6. I don't see why you're bringing up prolonged combat, because that's a really irrelevant point. Plus, a venom blade greatly assists in your first turn face smashing as you can get rerolls to wound against Tyranid's big bugs. And, again, I really feel this can't be overstated.
It's only five points. There's literally no reason not to pay for it. It's the tiniest investment that makes for a massive improvement in killing power.
FF help if you don't go first. Additionally, they are helpful vs. the crackshot crap I have to face. Lastly, if it saves my ravagers...and makes my opponent have to shoot more shots in them to put them down...all the better. The 'jink' save isn't all that great. FFs now bounce failed terrain tests, etc. It's still a useful piece of wargear, dropping them adds 30pts back into my army...which doesn't buy me anything more of use.
Unless you use board terrain and the new 25% rules to give you cover. Crack shot? The only way I see the FF being useful is the failed terrain tests. That's about all they have going for them on Ravagers. Otherwise they are exactly the same as a jink save. That you have to pay for. I'll take free over not free every day of the week.
As for what you could buy with the thirty points.
That shattershard you're hesitant to drop, perhaps. Get a liquifier gun and the shattershard?
Ignores cover weapons (whirlwinds might see a rennaisance, Hydras)
It depends on your local meta, i guess.
My local is rather packed with cover-ignoring stuff, and DE vehicles are awful fragile, with even anti-infantry weapons having a decent chance of at least glancing ..
He's strength 6 on a charge. Rarely does this unit see combat for longer than a round. Thus, most of the time they are getting the charge...or outright killing what they charge. This unit so far has performed admirably even vs. terminators. Nothing locks this unit down until the baron dies...which is unlikely to happen.
why pay 10 points for +1 attack when you wont pay 5 points for +1 attack and better chance to wound?
If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.
Also...what about the old school raider rush with warriors?
scuddman wrote:If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.
only the hextrix can take an ax and if you do, she will get challenged by a bloke with a sword who will likely kill her before she gets to swing.
Ascalam wrote:Hiveguard - they don't ignore invulnerables
Ignores cover weapons (whirlwinds might see a rennaisance, Hydras)
It depends on your local meta, i guess.
My local is rather packed with cover-ignoring stuff, and DE vehicles are awful fragile, with even anti-infantry weapons having a decent chance of at least glancing ..
Hive guard I will give you.
Hydras I already talked about, and explained why you won't see more than a couple of them in any given list these days. While they have their niche (namely destroying DE and flyers) they aren't nearly as universally useful as they were in the previous edition. One or two hydra tanks does not scare three ravagers, especially when accompanied by a fleet of other juicy targets to force hard target priority decisions.
Whirlwinds? Their ignore cover* missiles can't scratch the paint on a Ravager. It's strength 4 hitting armor 11. Even if they use the Vengeance missiles, it's still only strength 5, meaning it only glances on a 6. Ordnance doubles the chance of that glancing hit, but in the end... That's all it is. A single glancing hit. If that's what they're using their whirlwind for, a single glancing hit a turn, that you can save with Jink, you've already won that game.
So you have Hive Guard, which only have a 30" threat radius and might become less common in this edition due to the shift away from dedicated transport spam and their lack of twin-linked limiting their usefulness against flyers (I'm not a nid player, nor a psychic but I see Hive Guard as being less useful these days.) and you have Hydras, which are definitely going to become less common due to the fact that they only hit on 6's against every target that isn't a flyer or a skimmer. That's only two units in the entirety of the game right now.
Mind you, I'm not making an argument against Flickerfields in general. I use flickerfields quite extensively to protect my flyers so they don't have to waste turns evading, and to protect my dedicated transports so they get to where they need to be. But for a Ravager that's going to sit in my deployment zone, shifting to adjust for LoS and to avoid backfield threats like outflankers and drop pods (neither of which can assault the turn they come in these days) I do not see the point in investing 30 points in upgrades that will hardly ever see use. I can get a flamethrower that snipes characters and a pistol that can potentially snipe characters for those points.
scuddman wrote:If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators? I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.
Also...what about the old school raider rush with warriors?
Ohdeargodno. It wastes the best part about Wyches, they swing first. I still go for the agoniser if I'm running my wyches in larger groups. Wounding on a 4+ with a strength 3 model is wonderful. You just need to avoid terminators in assault these days and focus them down with long range fire. Or, if you're going to assault them, do it with the intention of a drawn out tarpit, using shardnets to reduce their attacks to 1 per model and grisly trophies on a nearby vehicle to allow you to reroll any failed leadership checks.
Raider Rush is pretty decent these days. 10 warriors, a splinter cannon and a raider with splinter racks and a flickerfield will run you 180 points, which is a steal for a dark lance, 9 twin-linked splinter rifles and a splinter cannon. As always, the usual DE tactics apply. Focus multiple units into a single enemy unit until it is no longer a threat, then move on to the next threat. Feel free to get within 12" of a unit for rapid fire if it's not an assault unit or a specializes in short ranged shooting. Twin-linked double-tapping splinter rifles can put some serious pain on enemy units. Just be sure to roll your Splinter Cannon shots with different dice or separately. Splinter racks, unfortunately, do not benefit them.
why pay 10 points for +1 attack when you wont pay 5 points for +1 attack and better chance to wound?
Because he's a squad upgrade and becomes a character at that point...he's great for absorbing challenges. Like I said, I'm not adverse to adding a venom blade...in the games I've played so far I haven't seen a need for it.
Hydras I already talked about, and explained why you won't see more than a couple of them in any given list these days. While they have their niche (namely destroying DE and flyers) they aren't nearly as universally useful as they were in the previous edition. One or two hydra tanks does not scare three ravagers, especially when accompanied by a fleet of other juicy targets to force hard target priority decisions.
There is far more things in the game that the FF is good against. For IG, "Fire on my target", Hive Guard, Tau with Markerlights. Like I said, it's 30pts. Okay, so I drop the Shattershard and use the points to get a venom blade. That still leaves me with 10pts. Drop the FF's and now I have 40pts...which = not enough points to get anything of significant value. Which means the FF's aren't a waste at that point.
If you give wyches a power axe, aren't they still pretty good against terminators?
I know there is that snap fire thing, but I think it goes both ways.
I'd only consider that if I was running larger squads. In my experience and test games so far...wyches are worthless unless you take a full squad...or take the minimum. Anything in between is a waste. They simply die too quickly now and delivering them into CC is nearly impossible. Mine are there for cheap scoring, or to go after vehicles as they are absolutely brutal vehicle killers now.
Raider Rush is pretty decent these days. 10 warriors, a splinter cannon and a raider with splinter racks and a flickerfield will run you 180 points, which is a steal for a dark lance, 9 twin-linked splinter rifles and a splinter cannon. As always, the usual DE tactics apply. Focus multiple units into a single enemy unit until it is no longer a threat, then move on to the next threat. Feel free to get within 12" of a unit for rapid fire if it's not an assault unit or a specializes in short ranged shooting. Twin-linked double-tapping splinter rifles can put some serious pain on enemy units. Just be sure to roll your Splinter Cannon shots with different dice or separately. Splinter racks, unfortunately, do not benefit them.
This greatly depends on match up. Decent? Meh, not in my experience. I've played games where I've lost all my raiders in one turn. With the new rapid fire rules, they take far more firepower now. Pair that with Aegis lines, it makes GEQ armies more durable vs. your poison shots. I see Aegis lines being standard equipment in most people's armies as it's one of the few ways of getting Skyfire and Interceptor into your list. Having it be manned by characters with a high BS makes it a nasty threat even worse when it's manned by an Exarch with crackshot...LOL.
CaptKaruthors wrote:There is far more things in the game that the FF is good against. For IG, "Fire on my target", Hive Guard, Tau with Markerlights. Like I said, it's 30pts. Okay, so I drop the Shattershard and use the points to get a venom blade. That still leaves me with 10pts. Drop the FF's and now I have 40pts...which = not enough points to get anything of significant value. Which means the FF's aren't a waste at that point.
Fire on my target? You mean that order that only company command squads and special characters can issue, and can only issue a maximum of twice a turn and only if they forgo any and all other opportunities for orders? I can't say that I've ever seen that order put to good effect on the units that actually threaten Ravagers. If a Heavy Weapons Team is firing on my Ravager, it's already in deep trouble regardless of which 5+ save it has, and there's no way I'm letting it get within 24" for the guard to bring their weight of fire with plasma weapons and such come to bear.
I also have to say, it's rarely my ravagers that get marker-lighted. It's usually the venoms. They're a bigger threat in the grand scheme of things, and rail guns can pop a Ravager with ease either way
I'd rather have 30 points to spare on wargear that will see use in every game than 30 points to spend that will only get used a fraction of the time. I'd grab a shattershard. It's always a good idea, it can snipe characters out of a unit so you don't have to worry about challenges. Then throw a blast pistol in to give a squad some extra AT and precision shots potential, or throw some venom blades on squad leaders because they kick ass too.
This greatly depends on match up. Decent? Meh, not in my experience. I've played games where I've lost all my raiders in one turn. With the new rapid fire rules, they take far more firepower now. Pair that with Aegis lines, it makes GEQ armies more durable vs. your poison shots. I see Aegis lines being standard equipment in most people's armies as it's one of the few ways of getting Skyfire and Interceptor into your list. Having it be manned by characters with a high BS makes it a nasty threat even worse when it's manned by an Exarch with crackshot...LOL.
You are aware that by default, an Aegis defense line is only a 4+ save, right? The same save that infantry had in 5th for standing behind a tall bush? If we're talking GEQ, chances are they're either lots of small units or a moderate amount of big units, but either way, they aren't going to be able to stretch the Aegis across the board to get that cover save everywhere. All you have to do is maneuver to an angle where the defense line isn't between your firing unit and their unit. Focus fire if you have to, pick out the ones who aren't in cover. I'd gladly let my opponent pay 50 points for an easily negated cover save. The only time it worries me is when it is used to safeguard tanks, now that's effective. Infantry? Not so much, though the quad gun is more than a little frightening. Mostly because you can't kill it. Gotta kill the squad manning it. That can be a real pain in the ass.
Fire on my target? You mean that order that only company command squads and special characters can issue, and can only issue a maximum of twice a turn and only if they forgo any and all other opportunities for orders?
Yeah, that one...you know the one that can be issued 4 times by Creed, or 4 times if people are taking dual command squads...something that a lot of IG players will do in a competitive list?
I can't say that I've ever seen that order put to good effect on the units that actually threaten Ravagers. If a Heavy Weapons Team is firing on my Ravager, it's already in deep trouble regardless of which 5+ save it has, and there's no way I'm letting it get within 24" for the guard to bring their weight of fire with plasma weapons and such come to bear.
Then your opponents may be doing it wrong. It's very easy to get into range with plasma now. Drive 12" and snap fire away...and I'm not really even talking about just plasma. Heavy weapon teams are a threat always, and sometimes you don't have the benefit of cover...or you went second. There are lots of factors that come into play. 30pts. to assist in that eventuality is worth it to me.
I also have to say, it's rarely my ravagers that get marker-lighted. It's usually the venoms. They're a bigger threat in the grand scheme of things, and rail guns can pop a Ravager with ease either way
Then the Tau player isn't very wise as venoms are AV10 and most of the Tau fire power can down them without markerlight assistance.
I'd rather have 30 points to spare on wargear that will see use in every game than 30 points to spend that will only get used a fraction of the time. I'd grab a shattershard. It's always a good idea, it can snipe characters out of a unit so you don't have to worry about challenges.
The shattershard is nice, but by no means an auto take for me. I've been able to only use it once. It's more for a "break glass in case of emergency" type choice. Wargearing up Haemonculi too much is foolish in this edition when they are less durable than before (if they ever were at all).
Then throw a blast pistol in to give a squad some extra AT and precision shots potential, or throw some venom blades on squad leaders because they kick ass too.
For 15pts for a pistol, I'd rather take a blaster for the same cost...and get better range. However, name me a character in the HQ choices that I've selected that can take one? There is no basic Archon in my list. Upgrading the wyches with squad leaders is pointless as there are only 5 of them per squad and they are completely disposable...or completely for hiding on objectives. Adding to their cost is foolish...and with only 30 pts to spare if I dropped the FFs...it only gets me one Hekatrix with a blast pistol...or two with venom blades...not really worth it as their role isn't to assault infantry.
You are aware that by default, an Aegis defense line is only a 4+ save, right? The same save that infantry had in 5th for standing behind a tall bush? If we're talking GEQ, chances are they're either lots of small units or a moderate amount of big units, but either way, they aren't going to be able to stretch the Aegis across the board to get that cover save everywhere.
Obviously, you haven't played much vs. opponents that have used them. While they are GEQs, you're only averaging 4 wounds a turn per Venom...of which they save half. That means with 4 venoms you are, on average, only dealing a total of 8 unsaved wounds into a 10 man unit after Aegis saves. That's not enough to destroy the unit. This doesn't take into account things like Camo Cloaks, or Eldar units with Stealth, etc. but just the basic 4+ the Aegis gives. It's a big deal when your venoms become less effective. My experience tells me this through many games vs. Aegis lines. Just sayin...
All you have to do is maneuver to an angle where the defense line isn't between your firing unit and their unit.
Easier said than done. Ever face Vibro cannons walled up behind Aegis? Dark Reapers? Warwalkers?, IG camo'd platoons because the Commissar Lord gives them stealth? Bunkered up artillery is brutal now.
Focus fire if you have to, pick out the ones who aren't in cover. I'd gladly let my opponent pay 50 points for an easily negated cover save.
And how is Dark Eldar easily negating this cover save?
The only time it worries me is when it is used to safeguard tanks, now that's effective. Infantry? Not so much, though the quad gun is more than a little frightening. Mostly because you can't kill it. Gotta kill the squad manning it. That can be a real pain in the ass.
It's effective regardless of what's behind it. It's cheap effective terrain you'll always have. Also the quad gun can be killed. It's T7 with 2 wounds and a 3+ save. The main reason I went the route I did with my list is because of the effectiveness of Aegis lines. The only real durable units the DE have now is a death star block of Grotes with Talos escort backed up by cheap guns (Venoms) with weak troops. I still have a lot more testing to do, so my opinions may change, but so far this is what I've encountered and am reporting in with based on rigorous test games.
CaptKaruthors wrote:Yeah, that one...you know the one that can be issued 4 times by Creed, or 4 times if people are taking dual command squads...something that a lot of IG players will do in a competitive list?
So we're talking my opponent dropping 150-200 points on 5, possibly 10 toughness 3 models with a base 5+ save? Happy birthday to me. I'd love for my opponent to spend a tenth of his points on such easily obtained victory points.
Then your opponents may be doing it wrong. It's very easy to get into range with plasma now. Drive 12" and snap fire away...and I'm not really even talking about just plasma. Heavy weapon teams are a threat always, and sometimes you don't have the benefit of cover...or you went second. There are lots of factors that come into play. 30pts. to assist in that eventuality is worth it to me.
12"+12" = 24"
That's a little short of the 36" range my Ravager will be using to full effect.
Unless you're talking about moving 12" and firing once. In which case a plasmavets squad gets exactly three shots that only hit on sixes. Oh dear, you mean I have a 50% chance to get hit once? And if that one hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point, and a 33% chance to roll on the damage table? And if it does, I still have a 16% chance to negate it? Oh man, what an apocalyptic situation.
Then the Tau player isn't very wise as venoms are AV10 and most of the Tau fire power can down them without markerlight assistance.
Oh man, I would love for our local tau players to hop out of their transports to try and shoot my venoms with small arms fire. Yes please. Oh, please teach them to do that. I would sincerely appreciate it.
The shattershard is nice, but by no means an auto take for me. I've been able to only use it once. It's more for a "break glass in case of emergency" type choice. Wargearing up Haemonculi too much is foolish in this edition when they are less durable than before (if they ever were at all).
It's not an auto-take for me either, but it's one of the first pieces of wargear I look at investing into when I have points left over. I have never taken it in a game and not used it. It is, as I've said before, insanely valuable for sniping characters out of units. As it specifies the models under the template have to take the test, not the unit as a whole, you can easily remove that dude with the power fist and nasty attitude before diving in. As for overgearing a haemonculus, I'd hardly call 80 points expensive.
For 15pts for a pistol, I'd rather take a blaster for the same cost...and get better range. However, name me a character in the HQ choices that I've selected that can take one? There is no basic Archon in my list. Upgrading the wyches with squad leaders is pointless as there are only 5 of them per squad and they are completely disposable...or completely for hiding on objectives. Adding to their cost is foolish...and with only 30 pts to spare if I dropped the FFs...it only gets me one Hekatrix with a blast pistol...or two with venom blades...not really worth it as their role isn't to assault infantry.
I wasn't speaking specifically about your list. You said you could not get anything good for 30 points. I was demonstrating that you could. If I was speaking specifically about your list, I'd suggest throwing Grisly Trophies to make sure your MSU wyches don't run off after suffering a single wound. Or throw some night shields on your Ravagers, since you're so frightened by snap-shotting Plasma guns.
Obviously, you haven't played much vs. opponents that have used them. While they are GEQs, you're only averaging 4 wounds a turn per Venom...of which they save half. That means with 4 venoms you are, on average, only dealing a total of 8 unsaved wounds into a 10 man unit after Aegis saves. That's not enough to destroy the unit. This doesn't take into account things like Camo Cloaks, or Eldar units with Stealth, etc. but just the basic 4+ the Aegis gives. It's a big deal when your venoms become less effective. My experience tells me this through many games vs. Aegis lines. Just sayin...
Why, actually, yes I have! That's how I know it's so incredibly easy to deny their saves. See, most of the people deploy them facing directly towards the enemy, without side sections to shore up their flanks. Maximizes the length, but leaves them open to cross fire. Remember, if you draw line of sight from the barrel of your weapons to a model without the aegis defense line interfering, they do not get their cover save. It is not area terrain where they benefit just from standing next to it. It has to be between them and whatever is shooting at them. Again, combined with Focus Fire, this makes Aegis defense lines far less potent than you make them out to be. Move up one flank and fire into the central line or the opposite flank, drawing line of sight from the side and using Focus Fire to make sure those wounds don't get any saves. If you manage to collapse their flank with your close combat specialists charging ahead of the venoms, you can get enfilade fire and make that 50 point wall absolutely useless.
I'm really astonished at how highly you value a 4+ cover save though, especially considering those were standard for 5th. Mind you, they are rarer now, but how on earth did you deal with your opponent receiving one for standing in a crater in 5th edition? Especially since that crater was free, no points cost attached. Now they have to pay just to get the same cover save.
Easier said than done. Ever face Vibro cannons walled up behind Aegis? Dark Reapers? Warwalkers?, IG camo'd platoons because the Commissar Lord gives them stealth? Bunkered up artillery is brutal now.
And how is Dark Eldar easily negating this cover save?
See above, and I've already said that vehicles prove to be far more difficult to shift from behind Aegis defense lines. They benefit much better from it than Infantry except in the case of short range weapons such as melta or haywire grenades.
It's effective regardless of what's behind it. It's cheap effective terrain you'll always have. Also the quad gun can be killed. It's T7 with 2 wounds and a 3+ save. The main reason I went the route I did with my list is because of the effectiveness of Aegis lines. The only real durable units the DE have now is a death star block of Grotes with Talos escort backed up by cheap guns (Venoms) with weak troops. I still have a lot more testing to do, so my opinions may change, but so far this is what I've encountered and am reporting in with based on rigorous test games.
Effective? Yes. It's as effective as terrain was in 5th. But again, you're paying points for a limited amount of terrain that can be nullified, quite easily in the case of infantry. Remember that the rulebook outright specifies how many sections of defensive line you're allowed to use. I have seen all sorts of placements being attempted to take full advantage of it, but those limitations really do make a difference. The best formation I've seen would be an arrow with the point towards my army, but goddamn if this doesn't compress all their troops into one tightly packed bubble. There is always going to be a hole in the line or a weak point to exploit and even if something such as impassable terrain or LoS issues prevents you from exploiting it, it's still only a 4+ save. They weren't that big of a deal in 5th, and they aren't now. 50% of wounds are saved? That's nice, now sit nice and clustered while I send two shatterfields into your ranks. Make twenty five saving throws. Ready for the second pair of missiles? I'd hope so.
So we're talking my opponent dropping 150-200 points on 5, possibly 10 toughness 3 models with a base 5+ save? Happy birthday to me. I'd love for my opponent to spend a tenth of his points on such easily obtained victory points.
Yeah, because it's so easy to extract them from their transports :rolls eyes: Your blaster delivery systems got weaker, etc. easier said than done. My IG crushes DE. I don't think I've lost a game to DE in 5th. I haven't played my IG in 6th yet as I've been more focused on retooling my DE for 6th.
Unless you're talking about moving 12" and firing once. In which case a plasmavets squad gets exactly three shots that only hit on sixes. Oh dear, you mean I have a 50% chance to get hit once? And if that one hit has a 50% chance to strip a hull point, and a 33% chance to roll on the damage table? And if it does, I still have a 16% chance to negate it? Oh man, what an apocalyptic situation.
You assume too much. A.) you are assuming your ravagers always have the best cover and are moving. B.) Creed can outflank units into your zone. Again, your explanations seem...shall we say more theory and less about real game play. Or, you have the fortune of playing less experienced players. IG and Eldar are the worst match ups for DE in 6th...even more than they were in 5th.
Oh man, I would love for our local tau players to hop out of their transports to try and shoot my venoms with small arms fire. Yes please. Oh, please teach them to do that. I would sincerely appreciate it.
Maybe they should. Venoms get rolled by massed Str5 firepower and the Tau bring it in spades (hell and I'm not even counting the massed Missile Pod firepower they bring). Venoms have only 2 hull points....you must have great FF saves on your Venoms then. Most of my Venoms die by turn 3. Like I said, you must be extremely lucky...or your player base is lacking.
It's not an auto-take for me either, but it's one of the first pieces of wargear I look at investing into when I have points left over. I have never taken it in a game and not used it. It is, as I've said before, insanely valuable for sniping characters out of units. As it specifies the models under the template have to take the test, not the unit as a whole, you can easily remove that dude with the power fist and nasty attitude before diving in. As for overgearing a haemonculus, I'd hardly call 80 points expensive.
There is no disputing the potential effectiveness of the Shard. In the case of my army, it's a nice addition. 80pts for a Haemonculus is getting borderline expensive...especially on a character that has subpar stats for an HQ choice and is essentially a token generator and flame template chucker in this edition. The Haemonculus' durability took a slight dip in this edition.
I wasn't speaking specifically about your list. You said you could not get anything good for 30 points. I was demonstrating that you could. If I was speaking specifically about your list, I'd suggest throwing Grisly Trophies to make sure your MSU wyches don't run off after suffering a single wound. Or throw some night shields on your Ravagers, since you're so frightened by snap-shotting Plasma guns.
That's what the discussion was about in regards to the FFs in my army. Recheck the posts. Also, Grisly Trophies, while nice, aren't very useful when your wyches are usually out of range after they charge.
Why, actually, yes I have! That's how I know it's so incredibly easy to deny their saves. See, most of the people deploy them facing directly towards the enemy, without side sections to shore up their flanks.
Here is your first mistake. You said most people. I'm talking about people that understand to wrap their flanks with the small pieces to get the cover from all three sides. It reduces the size slightly, but it worth it.
Maximizes the length, but leaves them open to cross fire. Remember, if you draw line of sight from the barrel of your weapons to a model without the aegis defense line interfering, they do not get their cover save. It is not area terrain where they benefit just from standing next to it. It has to be between them and whatever is shooting at them.
Your experience differs from mine. My opponents recognize that and deploy accordingly to solve that problem.
Again, combined with Focus Fire, this makes Aegis defense lines far less potent than you make them out to be. Move up one flank and fire into the central line or the opposite flank, drawing line of sight from the side and using Focus Fire to make sure those wounds don't get any saves.
Focus fire maybe one or two guys. Good job. Way to waste 12 shots from your Venom that will get one turn, maybe two to shoot.
If you manage to collapse their flank with your close combat specialists charging ahead of the venoms, you can get enfilade fire and make that 50 point wall absolutely useless.
Here you go again about combat specialist getting there. In every game I've played so far, I've safely delivered combat units to my opponents lines 4 times. In all the other games they get shot out from their transport, most die from that, then the rest get shot off the board. Getting hammered by powers like Foreboding, Perfect timing, and Prescience really sort of limits your ability to get into HtH at times.
I'm really astonished at how highly you value a 4+ cover save though, especially considering those were standard for 5th. Mind you, they are rarer now, but how on earth did you deal with your opponent receiving one for standing in a crater in 5th edition?
I'm really astonished how you've overlooked what a boon it is to be able to purchase 4+ cover and take it with you in this game...then pair it with units that can improve that cover. With the nerfing of assault distances, and the loss of not being able to assault from any kind of reserve move that level of cover is more durable than ever. Other than flame template weapons, the DE have no cover ignoring weapons. At. All. It is very easy for units of IG to get the save to a 2+, then get back in the fight to shoot again on their turn.
Effective? Yes. It's as effective as terrain was in 5th. But again, you're paying points for a limited amount of terrain that can be nullified, quite easily in the case of infantry. Remember that the rulebook outright specifies how many sections of defensive line you're allowed to use. I have seen all sorts of placements being attempted to take full advantage of it, but those limitations really do make a difference. The best formation I've seen would be an arrow with the point towards my army, but goddamn if this doesn't compress all their troops into one tightly packed bubble. There is always going to be a hole in the line or a weak point to exploit and even if something such as impassable terrain or LoS issues prevents you from exploiting it, it's still only a 4+ save. They weren't that big of a deal in 5th, and they aren't now. 50% of wounds are saved? That's nice, now sit nice and clustered while I send two shatterfields into your ranks. Make twenty five saving throws. Ready for the second pair of missiles? I'd hope so.
See above. It isn't always 4+. Think about the kinds of units that can get placed behind it, then come talk to me. Apparently your opponents aren't taking advantage of that opportunity. That's good for you, but bad for them. Good luck trying to connect with your missiles when the Aegis line is occupied by a Quad Gun with a character manning it...and either A.) shoots your AV10 Razorwing down at the end of your movement phase, or B.) Shoots you, and forces you to evade and you are now unable to fire your missiles. Did you bring a FF? Did you bring more than one Flyer? I hope so. Like I said, I don't quite think you are a playing vs. some tough lists...or you are extremely fortunate that you are a 40k god amongst your peers in your gaming circle, or the meta in your area is a little more forgiving to your DE.
Ok minorly offtopic here, but I noticed that you mentioned IG camo platoons, whovever's using this against you might wanna check the FAQ, as it now gives the character wearing it ONLY +1 to cover saves, not stealth
Bobug wrote:Ok minorly offtopic here, but I noticed that you mentioned IG camo platoons, whovever's using this against you might wanna check the FAQ, as it now gives the character wearing it ONLY +1 to cover saves, not stealth
*back to lurking*
It still grants stealth by RAW as the explanation occurs in the third sentence..not the second. The FAQ tells you to replace the second sentence.
CaptKaruthors wrote:Yeah, because it's so easy to extract them from their transports :rolls eyes: Your blaster delivery systems got weaker, etc. easier said than done my IG crushes DE. I don't think I've lost a game to DE in 5th. I haven't played my IG in 6th yet as I've been more focused on retooling my DE for 6th.
Oh, so we're talking 200-300 points for their command units now? At 1500 points, that's more than a fifth of their army concentrated into a unit that, while a great force multiplier, isn't exactly contributing a holy amount of firepower to the army. If they scoot up to take advantage of 4x plasma guns or what-have-you, then they're vulnerable to being taken down. If they sit in the back, they're not exactly going to be a shooting monstrosity. Even if the IG player threw a lascannon or autocannon in there, it's just one heavy weapon that cost them quite a sizable chunk of points.
You assume too much. A.) you are assuming your ravagers always have the best cover and are moving. B.) Creed can outflank units into your zone. Again, your explanations seem...shall we say more theory and less about real game play. Or, you have the fortune of playing less experienced players. IG and Eldar are the worst match ups for DE in 6th...even more than they were in 5th.
So.
Okay. Lemme get this right. Opponent took creed, outflanked plasmavets into my zone. Okay, that I can buy. But that Creed is pushing the front line up to get close enough to those outflanking units so he can give them BiD? Sorry, but that's... not gonna happen. If Creed and his squad are pushing so aggressively forward, they're vulnerable to MSU wyches charging his transport and Beastmasters eating his face. Stop making up situations that, are in theory, quite bad, but in reality are never going to happen.
Also, why wouldn't I move my ravagers every turn? I get a 5+ save for scooting a hundredth of an inch. Even if I have perfect LoS where I'm sitting from, I shift my vehicles around to benefit from the Jink save. Of course I'm always going to have that save. You'd have to be a fool not to.
Maybe they should. Venoms get rolled by massed Str5 firepower and the Tau bring it in spades (hell and I'm not even counting the massed Missile Pod firepower they bring). Venoms have only 2 hull points....you must have great FF saves on your Venoms then. Most of my Venoms die by turn 3. Like I said, you must be extremely lucky...or your player base is lacking.
Oh no, they're wise for keeping fire warriors in their transports. Because yeah, if they drop those 8 fire warriors nearby, they'll drop a venom or two. And then the wyches will either tear them to shreds or tarpit them them in place for my beast pack to scoop up whenever I please. Our local tau player tried this in my second game of sixth, he killed a pair of venoms and then my beast pack just bounced back and forth, munching troops and transports alike. Now you're pretending all I have is Venoms in my army, unsupported by any other elements out there. I don't know about you, but I don't let my enemy isolate and destroy small elements of my army.
There is no disputing the potential effectiveness of the Shard. In the case of my army, it's a nice edition. 80pts for a Haemonculus is getting borderline expensive...especially on a character that has subpar stats for an HQ choice and is essentially a token generator and flame template chucker in this edition. The Haemonculus' durability took a slight dip in this edition.
This I will not disagree with you on. 80 points is the absolute maximum I would ever spend on a Haemonculus, but that particular combination of wargear has always served me well.
That's what the discussion was about in regards to the FFs in my army. Recheck the posts. Also, Grisly Trophies, while nice, aren't very useful when your wyches are usually out of range after they charge.
No. No I don't think so. I made a comment that Flickerfields aren't worth their points on Ravagers, and you have since named two valid situations where Flickerfields are worth it (Hydras and Hive Guard) and have since been trying to come up with obtuse, improbable situations to prove a point, like Creed leading the charge just to keep up with an outflanking unit so he can give them one specific order.
And you must play your wyches different than mine. I generally disembark within 6" inches of a unit, mostly out of habit from fifth, partially to guarantee the charge in spite of random rolls. Grisly trophies would come in handy, if I had the points to include them, but ah well, more important things picked up for me.
Here is your first mistake. You said most people. I'm talking about people that understand to wrap their flanks with the small pieces to get the cover from all three sides. It reduces the size slightly, but it worth it.
So okay, the entire enemy army is behind these aegis defense lines that are not only long enough to accomodate them but have leftover sections to shore up their flanks? Again, I'm not buying that. Especially since the rulebook specifically states how much defense line you can buy. It's usually enough for two twenty-man squads cramped together or two spread out smaller squads. There are always going to be units who aren't getting that cover, simply because the cover is finite, it is not unlimited. If you cannot fire upon the flanks of the protected units, fire upon the unprotected units to open up holes in their lines. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
Your experience differs from mine. My opponents recognize that and deploy accordingly to solve that problem.
In other words, they leave cover once they see you are opening up on their unprotected sides. I'll take it. Sounds like a win to me, they're out of cover.
Focus fire maybe one or two guys. Good job. Way to waste 12 shots from your Venom that will get one turn, maybe two to shoot.
Why do I only have one venom? Did I grab the wrong army case on the way out?
Here you go about combat specialist getting there. In every game I've played so far, I've safely delivered combat units to my opponents lines 4 times. In all the other games they get shot out from their transport, most die from that, then the rest get shot off the board. Getting hammered by powers like Foreboding, Perfect timing, and Prescience really sort of limits your ability to get into HtH at times.
So your grotesques have only gotten into combat 4 times? Man, you said they'd performed well in every game you played! That seems like quite the contradiction. Either way, my beast pack has yet to fail me in combat, especially with The Baron soaking up small arms fire at the front, and transferring str 6+ wounds to Khymera with a 2+ LoS!. I haven't tried the whole raider wyches yet, and I doubt I will in this edition for the exact reasons you mentioned. But I have plenty of other units to use for CC. Hell, I'd even throw a 6 man unit of Reavers against a unit of Dire Avengers or Veterans. Between Hammer of Wrath, the Champion with a venom blade and their wych statline, chances are they'd win that combat and tie up that unit from shooting for a turn.
I'm really astonished how you've overlooked what a boon it is to be able to purchase 4+ cover and take it with you in this game...then pair it with units that can improve that cover. With the nerfing of assault distances, and the loss of not being able to assault from any kind of reserve move that level of cover is more durable than ever. Other than flame template weapons, the DE have no cover ignoring weapons. At. All. It is very easy for units of IG to get the save to a 2+, then get back in the fight to shoot again on their turn.
I. Uh. Did you miss the part where I said it's effective? I mean. I quite clearly stated that in those exact words. Also, I thought we were talking about an IG mechanized list? That's pushing up the board with Creed to use BiD on outflanking plasmavets? So you're telling me that they're going to sit back instead? But that directly contradicts what you said earlier! Especially since he'd have to sit back to use the rallying order on units that have gone to ground. And if their entire army, or at least the ones hidden behind Aegis lines, goes to ground, well that sounds like a damn good turn to me. Creed has 4 orders yeah, but he's not going to be able to get all of those units back on their feet, especially not in time to avoid a beast pack charge.
See above. It isn't always 4+. Think about the kinds of units that can get placed behind it, then come talk to me. Apparently your opponents aren't taking advantage of that opportunity. That's good for you, but bad for them. Good luck trying to connect with your missiles when the Aegis line is occupied by a Quad Gun with a character manning it...and either A.) shoots your AV10 Razorwing down at the end of your movement phase, or B.) Shoots you, and forces you to evade and you are now unable to fire your missiles. Did you bring a FF? Did you bring more than one Flyer? I hope so. Like I said, I don't quite think you are a playing vs. some tough lists...or you are extremely fortunate that you are a 40k god amongst your peers in your gaming circle, or the meta in your area is a little more forgiving to your DE.
I uh. Take Voidravens, not Razorwings. Nice try though. Also, who's manning the Aegis defense line? Creed? But he's gotta be in the middle of the board to give orders to outflankers! Those vague eldar you're talking about? I'm still not quite sure how the Eldar got Plasmavets and Creed on their side, and why they've all coalesced together into one terribly apocalyptic situation for me. If that's what you're playing against, I think your friends are cheating you, buddy. Allied detachments can only take few very limited choices after all, and allies of convenience can't join each other's squads. If they're fielding all of this artillery you keep touting about in on game, I think they may just be over the points limit too. I mean, if you're playing my DE with 3000 points of Eldar and Imperial guard with all the trimmings and list-tailoring, I'd probably lose. But here, where I play, in my store, we play game where both players have equal points limits. Every unit I've spoken of is used in my lists. The exception being Voidravens which are currently lacking a kit. I'm not talking about a vague 'they might take all these things at once if they're not bound by points or FoC' concept. I'm talking about an actual army list. Yeah, if we disregard FoC and points, you can take alllll of those things, creed and plasmavets and phoenix lords and vibrocannon batteries and chimeras and defensive lines and fire warriors and so on and so forth and such. In reality, when playing an equal points game, you will have a fraction of those tools at your disposal.
Yes, they can do bad things to my army, but they're not going to wipe me off the board in a single turn. Maybe claim a couple of units, but such is the game, I've rarely won a game where I didn't lose a unit or two.
Also, thanks for calling me a 40k god. I love it when people are willing to admit their folly and venerate me as is proper.
Oh, so we're talking 200-300 points for their command units now? At 1500 points, that's more than a fifth of their army concentrated into a unit that, while a great force multiplier, isn't exactly contributing a holy amount of firepower to the army.
1500pts? Who said anything about 1500pt games? Have you even read anything I've said? My list is 2000pts. My explanations are based on that points value. If someone were to field Creed X4 plasmagunners in his list it's 255pts. and is essentially the only command squad you'd need. Most top level IG lists are using dual command squads. A basic command HQ squad is 165pts. for one, or 330pts for two. That's not even 25% of a 2000pt force. Who's playing 1500pt games in competitive events? No one. My experience is based on games played at that level.
So.
Okay. Lemme get this right. Opponent took creed, outflanked plasmavets into my zone. Okay, that I can buy. But that Creed is pushing the front line up to get close enough to those outflanking units so he can give them BiD? Sorry, but that's... not gonna happen.
LOL. Why is that hard to grasp? Creeds command radius is 24". One simple move puts him in range with most of the board his forces are in. Lastly, I used Creed as an example that your Ravagers can face. I never said I've played against a Creed list. You assumed I did. I've played against dual command squad lists because that's what some top IG lists use at 2000pts.
If Creed and his squad are pushing so aggressively forward, they're vulnerable to MSU wyches charging his transport and Beastmasters eating his face. Stop making up situations that, are in theory, quite bad, but in reality are never going to happen.
How are your MSU wyches even getting across the field in one piece? How are your beastmasters getting around the Psychic battle squad from punking them out with their weak LD8? See? It's easy to add in other units to counter your lame example of what you "would" be doing.
Also, why wouldn't I move my ravagers every turn? I get a 5+ save for scooting a hundredth of an inch. Even if I have perfect LoS where I'm sitting from, I shift my vehicles around to benefit from the Jink save. Of course I'm always going to have that save. You'd have to be a fool not to.
Again, you keep missing the point. What if you went second and didn't move them? Who's to say you will be able to perfectly hide them every game? Who's to say that your opponent came prepared to bounce your 'jink' save with weapons that ignore it, or abilities that ignore it? At times like that the FF is still useful. Which was my point. 30pts out of 2000pts isn't a big deal.
Oh no, they're wise for keeping fire warriors in their transports. Because yeah, if they drop those 8 fire warriors nearby, they'll drop a venom or two. And then the wyches will either tear them to shreds or tarpit them them in place for my beast pack to scoop up whenever I please.
Wow, you must play some pretty horrible Tau players then. How are your wyches even getting close to Firewarriors? They have a 15" rapid fire range, premeasuring ensures you'll never reach them....you can only assault 2D6. Your vehicle is now dead and your wyches are sitting there with their asses in the wind? Are we even playing the same game? LOL.
Our local tau player tried this in my second game of sixth, he killed a pair of venoms and then my beast pack just bounced back and forth, munching troops and transports alike. Now you're pretending all I have is Venoms in my army, unsupported by any other elements out there. I don't know about you, but I don't let my enemy isolate and destroy small elements of my army.
I'm not pretending anything. You are assuming my opponents are idiots when they aren't. You are the one throwing unit choices around in what you apparently have in your list. I'm reacting based on your assumptions. I'm reporting based on what I'm taking and armies I've faced. We are also playing armies that are different in size. If the information isn't helpful to you...move along.
No. No I don't think so. I made a comment that Flickerfields aren't worth their points on Ravagers,
And I've stated that in the context of my army and the meta in my area....they are
and you have since named two valid situations where Flickerfields are worth it (Hydras and Hive Guard) and have since been trying to come up with obtuse, improbable situations to prove a point, like Creed leading the charge just to keep up with an outflanking unit so he can give them one specific order.
No, actually I'm pointing out how obtuse you sound by magically having your Ravager in cover all the time...or still failing to ignore the damn obvious in the fact that you aren't going first in a game all the time.
And you must play your wyches different than mine. I generally disembark within 6" inches of a unit, mostly out of habit from fifth, partially to guarantee the charge in spite of random rolls.
You're right, I do play them differently. Like I said, have you read what I posted about my list? They are terrible assault units now unless you take 15 (not like they were that great before). Iuse them as 5 man squads to attack vehicles or to hide them on objectives. If you are getting your Venoms close enough where your wyches are within 6" of a unit that means you must be moving them extremely fast to reach on the following turn...which means you are moving over 6" to do so which leads to this situation: A.) you've moved 12" in which case your 12 shots from the venoms are snap shots (which means not enough shots to dent what's behind an Aegis.). B.) You've moved them flat out which means no shooting and you are now in range of pretty much everything your opponent has to shoot with. Good luck trying to deliver your assault cargo buddy. LOL.
So okay, the entire enemy army is behind these aegis defense lines that are not only long enough to accomodate them but have leftover sections to shore up their flanks? Again, I'm not buying that. Especially since the rulebook specifically states how much defense line you can buy.
Who said anything about putting an entire army behind it? I didn't...you did. I said that my opponents were putting units that benefit from it's abilities the best behind it. You keep putting words in my mouth at every turn.
It's usually enough for two twenty-man squads cramped together or two spread out smaller squads. There are always going to be units who aren't getting that cover, simply because the cover is finite, it is not unlimited. If you cannot fire upon the flanks of the protected units, fire upon the unprotected units to open up holes in their lines. It doesn't seem like rocket science to me.
Did you ever hear about bookending your flanks with Vehicles, transports with guys in them, and screening units ? Seriously? How hard is it to grasp basic concepts of deployment? You consistently assume the opponent is an idiot.
Why do I only have one venom? Did I grab the wrong army case on the way out?
Sigh...really? No fool, I fully expect to face 3-4 Venoms most DE list. My point was about wasting 12 shots to kill 2-3 models out of cover...that's stupid.
So your grotesques have only gotten into combat 4 times? Man, you said they'd performed well in every game you played! That seems like quite the contradiction.
Seriously, why do I even bother giving this a response? My Grotesques have no issues getting into combat...that's why I field them in favor of other assault units. If you've been actually reading what I type vs. putting words in my mouth you might realize that. Just to bring you up to speed: I don't place larger assault units in transports anymore as they rarely reach their intended targets anymore. In the many games I've played, this is the conclusion I've reached. This means wyche squads stay at 5 models for me and are only used to go after vehicles of opportunity or to camp on objectives..until further testing proves otherwise. Like I said, all my information is based on games played. Not theory. My games are also tested against solid firepower lists...something that we'll see more of in this edition since CC took such a kick to the dingus.
Either way, my beast pack has yet to fail me in combat, especially with The Baron soaking up small arms fire at the front, and transferring str 6+ wounds to Khymera with a 2+ LoS!.
That's good that you can attempt that combo, but the Baron has only 2 wounds, and the unit can still be stripped from the flanks and or blast sniped with indirect weapons. Remember, the IG? Yeah, Manticores make short work of that unit. Same goes for shooty based Eldar. Face it, breaking cover in this edition punishes our assault units more than ever before because we lost the ability to alpha strike with our assault elements.
I haven't tried the whole raider wyches yet, and I doubt I will in this edition for the exact reasons you mentioned.
Okay, but you've been railing on me saying you have no problems with wyche delivery? Which is it? Try it. It's harder than you think. Which was my whole point!
But I have plenty of other units to use for CC. Hell, I'd even throw a 6 man unit of Reavers against a unit of Dire Avengers or Veterans. Between Hammer of Wrath, the Champion with a venom blade and their wych statline, chances are they'd win that combat and tie up that unit from shooting for a turn.
This assumes you can put them into the position to assault in the first place. Reavers are no better than they were before vs. shooting. They gained only moderate buffs, but not enough to use them as a combat element. They also don't have grenades. I want to like Reavers, but I'm afraid they aren't any better than they were before. I'm going to try using them with WWPs so they can at least survive long enough to shoot something. In my test games Reavers haven't lasted very long as they are some of the first units to be targeted.
Also, I thought we were talking about an IG mechanized list? That's pushing up the board with Creed to use BiD on outflanking plasmavets?
No, you assumed that. I just said that the IG lists I've faced are using two command squads like most top lists do. No mention of a full mech list was given. As for Creed, it was an example of showing you that..yes in fact there are ways to get to your always hiding or always moving Ravagers. Creed can outflank more than just a plasmavet squad. He can outflank other stuff of value as well. Hellhounds being the scariest since the 6th edition increased the reach of it's gun now.
So you're telling me that they're going to sit back instead? But that directly contradicts what you said earlier!
LOLz. Man, you sure have a knack for assuming and putting words in people's mouths. That's not what I said. Besides, the IG opponent only really has to hold back for 2 turns. More often than not most of your stuff will be dead, and he can move out to mop up.
Especially since he'd have to sit back to use the rallying order on units that have gone to ground.
What the hell are you talking about? Creed's command radius is 24"! Even if he moves forward a bit his well within range of just about everything in his army. Have you even played a game vs. Creed, or have used him? I've done both.
And if their entire army, or at least the ones hidden behind Aegis lines, goes to ground, well that sounds like a damn good turn to me.
Lolz. I'll chalk this up to: you have no idea.
Creed has 4 orders yeah, but he's not going to be able to get all of those units back on their feet, especially not in time to avoid a beast pack charge.
Creed can do this with little to no problems...and the beasts most likely will never reach their intended targets because they'll be dead, or falling back. Creed can do all of this from the safety of a vehicle. But enough about Creed as I haven't faced a Creed list yet, but as an IG player as well, I know what it's capable of.
Take Voidravens, not Razorwings. Nice try though.
Okay, and how many of those are you bringing in your 1500pts?...and yet somehow I'm the one that's clueless about points? Got more than one? No? Most likely your one flyer dies or is crippled the turn it arrives if you can't shut down the Quad Gun.
Also, who's manning the Aegis defense line?
Reading fail. I already stated this. No Creed isn't manning the line, but a vet squad or two manning one is quite nasty as it is now BS 4 on the Quad gun...or if you'd actually read what I say...I said Exarchs with Crackshot (which are BS 5!). I've also seen Farseers used to man it as well.
Creed? But he's gotta be in the middle of the board to give orders to outflankers! Those vague eldar you're talking about? I'm still not quite sure how the Eldar got Plasmavets and Creed on their side, and why they've all coalesced together into one terribly apocalyptic situation for me.
That's because you've assumed things and put words in my mouth like someone that can't read very well. But for the clueless, I'll help you out. The two armies I've been predominately testing against have been IG and Eldar. Both with Aegis lines. Does that make sense now? And no, I haven't faced a Creed list, but used it as an example of how it's possible to pop your seemingly invincible 'jinked' ravagers with a modicum of thought.
If that's what you're playing against, I think your friends are cheating you, buddy. Allied detachments can only take few very limited choices after all, and allies of convenience can't join each other's squads.
Who the hell said anything about allies? Heck, I haven't even reported my findings with vs. those types of lists yet as I've only played 2 games in which allies were used against me.
If they're fielding all of this artillery you keep touting about in on game, I think they may just be over the points limit too.
Again, you are assuming things. Eldar Artillery is dirt cheap for what it does, and Vibrocannons have gotten very useful again. 2x3 Vibro batteries with 3 warwalkers and farseer support easily fits behind an Aegis line...and absolutely will shred gak. All for the rock bottom price of 480pts. That still leave plenty of other crap to put in the list at 2000pts. To be honest, I really don't think you are testing this stuff as rigorously as I am.
snipped the bloviating
The points limits are 2k per side. A standard tournament sized list...with tournament list type builds...but also adapted to shift in meta in 6th.
Yes, they can do bad things to my army, but they're not going to wipe me off the board in a single turn.
Maybe not everything off the board in one turn, but crippled significantly where the ability to recover is impossible...and this isn't even taking into consideration how lopsided the Secondary Objectives can get...specifically first blood.
Also, thanks for calling me a 40k god. I love it when people are willing to admit their folly and venerate me as is proper.
I believe it was more of a backhanded comment than anything else. LOL. but whatever helps you sleep at night.
Awww, c'mon, they're just roleplaying DE. If they weren't arguing over the best way to flay some 'umies they wouldn't be in character.
Aside from all that.... has the transport rules discussion going on here affected any of your lists? If it has, what changes are you making? I'm considering going old school DE and taking transports, but not embarking units in them. Transports, will still be have to be dealt with, but my opponent would have to deal with both the disembarked unit and the transport separately.
If it's true that we can't assault out of our vehicles when wrecked, even though they're open topped, that'd be the final nail in the coffin for assault-oriented raider-rush lists. Not that this edition has been kind to them to begin with.
But I've already swapped over to a style of list where that hardly effects me.
That's an interesting debate though, something I'll have to check out from start to finish.
I feel like this particular discussion is really not about Dark Eldar and 6th edition anymore.
Agreed. I'm simply trying to report my findings. If there is disagreement, that's fine.
yeah, different strokes for different folks
Yup. True enough. I'm curious to hear what other people have been finding out. Us DE players need to work together...LOL. Anyone else having success with different builds? Or have any ideas? My Grotesque list came about through a lot of process of elimination in my games. Anyone having success with 3 flyers? Lack of vector dancer makes them rather difficult to steer after the initial arrival...plus Aegis quad guns are a pain.
Yeah, kinda hijacked the thread there. Sorry, folks!
Yeah, my apologies as well, people. No hard feelings Lokas, you've still added good content...which is never a bad thing...and I will aim to test some of your suggestions on Saturday.
If it's true that we can't assault out of our vehicles when wrecked, even though they're open topped, that'd be the final nail in the coffin for assault-oriented raider-rush lists. Not that this edition has been kind to them to begin with.
Yup. Which would really irritate me as the army isn't that old...and it's already been made obsolete due to an edition change. I don't feel like waiting another 10+ years for an update. If that becomes a reality...then my army will be sold.
But I've already swapped over to a style of list where that hardly effects me.
Are you guys forgetting that our transports are open-topped? They can assault after the vehicle has been wrecked, so long as they pass their pinning test.
The argument is that open-topped only gives us permission to launch an assault in the player turn that we disembark, which would be during the enemy's turn. Can't launch an assault, that permission is wasted, the restriction returns next turn and the unit can no longer assault.
At least, that's what I get from reading the thread. If you wanna argue it, feel free to do so in the linked thread. I personally think it's silly, but there are plenty of people to argue that for me.
Back on topic, I really like to see how well that biker list Mushkilla is doing. I see if I can find the points to beef my squads to 9 bikes instead of 6. I'm also pondering taking a haemonculus with a single WWP for the bikes to deploy from the center of the map. I'll miss the +1 to deployment from Sathonyx, but bladevaning the turn they come in might just be worth it.
Lokas wrote:
Back on topic, I really like to see how well that biker list Mushkilla is doing. I see if I can find the points to beef my squads to 9 bikes instead of 6. I'm also pondering taking a haemonculus with a single WWP for the bikes to deploy from the center of the map. I'll miss the +1 to deployment from Sathonyx, but bladevaning the turn they come in might just be worth it.
Something to experiment with.
Reavers only really need the portal for hammer and anvil deployment, any other deployment they can reach anywhere on the board from reserve. I don't think it's worth getting a portal just for nine bikes when it's only going to be useful in 1/3 games (Portals are still handy for heatlancing things from reserve).
Lokas wrote:
Back on topic, I really like to see how well that biker list Mushkilla is doing. I see if I can find the points to beef my squads to 9 bikes instead of 6. I'm also pondering taking a haemonculus with a single WWP for the bikes to deploy from the center of the map. I'll miss the +1 to deployment from Sathonyx, but bladevaning the turn they come in might just be worth it.
Something to experiment with.
Reavers only really need the portal for hammer and anvil deployment, any other deployment they can reach anywhere on the board from reserve. I don't think it's worth getting a portal just for nine bikes when it's only going to be useful in 1/3 games (Portals are still handy for heatlancing things from reserve).
Mushkilla wrote:Reavers only really need the portal for hammer and anvil deployment, any other deployment they can reach anywhere on the board from reserve. I don't think it's worth getting a portal just for nine bikes when it's only going to be useful in 1/3 games (Portals are still handy for heatlancing things from reserve).
I quite like your Battle Reports, I've been looking into having Reavers play a larger role in my force, although perhaps not that large.
I'd love to hear about the plan for a Jetbike Autarch since I had intents to do much the same, personally I couldn't resist the idea of gearing him right up with a Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, and Mandiblasters, which leaves him pretty expensive when you add in the bike, but those S6 power weapon attacks on the charge will be delicious, not to mention his 4+ invulnerable save letting him hop into challenges a bit more safely than the Arena Champion.
Thanks. I'm currently trying to work out a 1500 point variation on that list which includes a bike Autarch (it's hard not to make him expensive ). I will be having a few games this weekend. I'll post the reports.
Ascalam wrote:WWP Assaults are now no-go, as is zoom and assault.
We pay extra in points and fragility for our fast vehicles to be able to zoom-drop-assault, but now we can't do that. Ork trukks are in the same boat.
WWP delivery shooty units might be worth a go though.
Our assault units are likely to get shot up a bit more trying to get into assault, and out Pain Engines are now even less able to handle vehicles due to the loss of the 2d6 to pen.
I'll need to read the book, and try a few games to see how the rules interact, but right now it looks like we took a hefty kick in the effectiveness, and had our speciality (speed)handed out to every other army.
No 2d6 to pen, but all MCs get smash attacks. With the Talos this means you can get up to 4 str 10 attacks on rear armor.... even a landraider is shuddering at that.
Mushkilla wrote:Thanks. I'm currently trying to work out a 1500 point variation on that list which includes a bike Autarch (it's hard not to make him expensive ). I will be having a few games this weekend. I'll post the reports.
Was just re-reading your first battle report while telling a friend about it and I noticed when your reavers charged the assault marines and IC's you say: "Finally the 2 S4 power spear attacks inflict another two [wounds]"
Not sure how you get only 2 attacks, Arena Champion has 2 on the profile, +1 for charging, +1 for ccw/pistol.
You are remembering all Reavers are armed with a pistol/ccw yes?
skink007 wrote:
No 2d6 to pen, but all MCs get smash attacks. With the Talos this means you can get up to 4 str 10 attacks on rear armor.... even a landraider is shuddering at that.
they use to get 7+2d6 which has a better probibility to pen AV14 than 10+d6. Also they could get up to 8 attacks.
The changes might be a buff for cronos but are a nerf for Talos.
Drunkspleen wrote:
Was just re-reading your first battle report while telling a friend about it and I noticed when your reavers charged the assault marines and IC's you say: "Finally the 2 S4 power spear attacks inflict another two [wounds]"
Not sure how you get only 2 attacks, Arena Champion has 2 on the profile, +1 for charging, +1 for ccw/pistol.
You are remembering all Reavers are armed with a pistol/ccw yes?
Nice catch! That's just my bad writing, I meant the S4 spear attacks inflicted another two wounds. Don't know where I got the 2 from (will correct it).
skink007 wrote:
No 2d6 to pen, but all MCs get smash attacks. With the Talos this means you can get up to 4 str 10 attacks on rear armor.... even a landraider is shuddering at that.
they use to get 7+2d6 which has a better probibility to pen AV14 than 10+d6. Also they could get up to 8 attacks.
The changes might be a buff for cronos but are a nerf for Talos.
Definitely a nerf to the talos, but when it only takes 3/4 glances to wreck a vehicle, you don't 'need' penetrating hits. The number of attacks is what really sucks. Although it's easier to hit vehicles in cc now, it's not enough to make up for the loss of half of your attacks.
. but which 
Thinking about it, maybe zooming fighters with Disintegrators into their rear arc might work, it'd be a little easier than it sounds, i think. maybe? I wonder if jets can ram each other. But that's me listening to my ork friends too much.