That's the perfect example of what I've been saying about Night Shields from the beginning.
I've never played a game and thought to myself 'Man, those night shields really saved my ass from that lascannon!'
Now, saving my ass from bolters, plasma guns or so on? All the damn time. I try to fit Night Shields on all the skimmers that'll be advancing within 24" of the enemy.
Lokas wrote: Congratulations, you just corrected a post that was made in June.
I wish one of my first 5 posts did something THAT HELPFUL.... Ok sarcasm aside :-)
To go off of what a few others were say above, (been lurking for quite a while) The venoms are seemingly still the go to transport in most lists as they cater to MSU so damn well. I started dark eldar this edition as allies for my Eldar. I have slowly started taking more and more points worth of dark eldar to the point where I boarder taking dark eldar as my main FOC and Eldar as allies. So thank you GW for your stupid allies chart of $$PROFIT$$$ convincing me to start a second army.
The haywire venoms with night shields are amazing. For my allied troop choices I started with taking a raider with 10 kab's + blaster and a haywire venom with night shields (had a few extra points so i slapped it on). After a few games, I realized how incredible the night shields were and how many times it saved the boat. VS Necrons it is detrimental as they are mostly all 24" range as it is. It really helps deter small arms fire that could glance the venom very quickly. I promptly started taking night shields on all my DE vehicles. I also switched to taking (for my allied detachment) 2 haywire venoms with night shields instead of that raider.
As I slowly build my dark litte army, I will be purchasing more venoms. Everywhere on dakka people are saying mech is dead. But I dont quite think so for DE.
DE Venoms with 5-man wyches /w haywire is the bomb... You can't go wrong with those...
By far, if the wyches get out... they're going to destroy a vehicle...
I've been curb-stomping with my DE list in my neck of the woods, that I shelved it for a bit. Although, I'm going to try fitting in nightsheilds on my venoms to see if they survive longer.
Wow! Great game. I had theorized that the Mauler fiend would suck against wyches and you prove my pondering accurate my friend That said, I think it is it's only bad match up, it just made me chuckle that the first bat rep I have seen with a MF it has to face haywire nades lol. I agree heat lances are batter then blasters, I would take heat lances on my warriors if it were allowed. I think the HW blasters on the talos are actually great, they are perfect for finishing off those last pesky HP on vehicles while they try to surge forward. The splinter canon is usually never going to be used, I would rather run then cause an average of 2 AS personally, but causing an easy HP on heavy armor is always worth it.
Chaos lord appears to be insane, which is good IMO. I think the forge fiend is too expensive for being as you said, a psyfleman dread basically. I think some havocs would have really helped him out.
Chaos lord appears to be insane, which is good IMO. I think the forge fiend is too expensive for being as you said, a psyfleman dread basically. I think some havocs would have really helped him out.
Great game!
Thanks.
I'm actually thinking the triple S8 plasma is going to be the way forward for forgefiends, as it's ap2 the blast weapons mitigate his poor ballistic skill, and cover is not as easy to come by in 6th. I agree about havocs I think they are a lot better when it comes to dakka for 115 pts you get 8 BS4 S7 autocannon shots, which is pretty nasty.
Baronyu wrote: Thanks Mushkilla, great tactica! Will look forward to part 2.
Hi
Just wanted to chime in and say that I've recently found a new love for my Reavers. I ran a Dark Eldar WWP Jetbike army in 4th. in fifth, that army did not work. It's great to get the bikes out and go zooming around again. I've found a great use for them is to finish off a unit that has been mauled by my other units during the shooting phase. With that much movement, you can usually have your choice of multiple targets.
A question for the folks here. Can you use your Eldar jetbike move after turbo-boosting? I don't say anything that says you can't, right?
A question for the folks here. Can you use your Eldar jetbike move after turbo-boosting? I don't say anything that says you can't, right?
No you can't unfortunately.
Bikes and Jetbikes therefore cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action for the rest of the turn after Turbo-boosting. - BRB page 45 under Turbo-Boost
Had the game against guard today, posted the report for those who are interested (pictures are as usual). I have to say I think they are by far one of our toughest match-ups. Any advice on how to beat them?
I wish I knew. The one time I faced IG with my DE, agaisnt a very similar list, I was tabled on turn 2. they can put so many stuff on the table and kills anything and everything DE can field so fast, I really have no advice to offer. Maybe hide your stuff on the board, reserve the faster half, and pray for night fighting.
IG is always tough on DE which I find ironic as they are always mauling the IG in the fluff lol. I play IG as well and His list is something similar to one I have been designing for 6th. I think you played it right, move as fast a possible up the weak flank and roll through their army. IG's only weakness is ironically it's size, use the body of the elephant against itself You can usually deny LoS using his own parking lot. I am afraid that baring that it is usually always bloody as hell and uphill.
Foot or hybrid IG isn't all that difficult to deal with.
Pure mech IG like that list that Mushkilla faced there? That's a whole 'nother animal. That's the toughest match up I've found. Shoot dark lances at the chimeras? They're all guarding each other's flanks, preventing side armor shots and darklight blows ass at killing AV 12. Haywire grenades? Well those chimeras die real fast, and then the contents spill out and now all your scoring units are dead.
The hard counter to any DE army is AV 12 spam. AV 12 isn't as expensive as AV 14, and just as obnoxiously difficult for us to kill so it has all target saturation and durability on its side.
The hard counter to any DE army is AV 12 spam. AV 12 isn't as expensive as AV 14, and just as obnoxiously difficult for us to kill so it has all target saturation and durability on its side.
Red Corsair wrote: IG's only weakness is ironically it's size, use the body of the elephant against itself You can usually deny LoS using his own parking lot. I am afraid that baring that it is usually always bloody as hell and uphill.
I don't see how this can work, though. Most of our vehcles come in skimmer bases that make them tall and thus really easy to see from a distance. Add in Vendettas that can overlook the whole battlefield, and he wil always be able to find targets for 80% plus of his shooters.
I'm actually considering just flat-outing the whole army behind his line. It might make the vendettas overshoot as they arrive and makes firing blasts tricky as it'll be close to his own vehicles.
@Sephyr:Well I never claimed it was perfect, but I know from experience playing mech guard that when someone uses speed top relocate to a weak side flank, traffic jams up and becomes a massive issue quickly. Deep striking can also work but is more risky.
@mushkilla: Thanks mate, was trying to sound eloquent lol
@Lokas: Yea I agree av12 can be problematic but I actually think certain hybrid guard lists can be more dangerous. A 30 man hedge behind an aegis with commissars will make wyches think twice about going for those tanks if you place them right, and with get back in the fight they can go to ground fr a 2++ and return to normal every turn.
I did a Mulligan game with against the same player yesterday, same lists, same set up using the battle report to set everything up so that it was like starting from the start of IG turn 2. Played out very differently with a more aggressive guard approach.
The mini report is at the bottom of this report, if anyone is interested.
Noob DE player here; do I need to model anything for Venom Racks, Flickerfields, or Night shields on my raiders? Just putting my first raider together here.
On topic: Are wyches only really worth taking in small squads of five with haywire grenades for killing vehicles? I'd love a full squad of 10, but they dont' seem like they'd do too well as they used to last edition with nerfs to FNP and overwatch killing them off.
virx67 wrote: Noob DE player here; do I need to model anything for Venom Racks, Flickerfields, or Night shields on my raiders? Just putting my first raider together here.
On topic: Are wyches only really worth taking in small squads of five with haywire grenades for killing vehicles? I'd love a full squad of 10, but they dont' seem like they'd do too well as they used to last edition with nerfs to FNP and overwatch killing them off.
as has been discussed earlier at length, combat wyches are not really viable anymore. They can work in a less competitive sense. 10 is always too many but 7-8 can work. Just not as well as they use to with their nerfed charge range, overwatch, and FNP nerf.
Splinter racks should be modeled, have a lot of the spare splinter cannons glued onto the vehicle. Flickerfields and Night shields need not be modeled.
Spare splinter rifles, or ammo piles or something should be modeled on.
Fields don't need to be done, but you could try taking a heatgun to a sheet of clear plastic and softening it over the top to make a clear 'shell'. It's what I intend to do once I source the appropriate plastic (had one but was too flimsy ><
The hard counter to any DE army is AV 12 spam. AV 12 isn't as expensive as AV 14, and just as obnoxiously difficult for us to kill so it has all target saturation and durability on its side.
I agree AV12 spam is a real pain for DE.
If you're the kind of person who runs Razorwings a couple Shatterfield missiles are great for stripping a few hull points off of a block of chimeras. Between their range, razorwing's speed, shape of chimeras, and fire arc of the missiles, it's not too tricky to get into their side arc when you come on and hit 4-6 vehicles with S7 Large blasts (and one with a few Lance/Dissie shots). Not much help until T2+ though.
virx67 wrote: Noob DE player here; do I need to model anything for Venom Racks, Flickerfields, or Night shields on my raiders? Just putting my first raider together here.
On topic: Are wyches only really worth taking in small squads of five with haywire grenades for killing vehicles? I'd love a full squad of 10, but they dont' seem like they'd do too well as they used to last edition with nerfs to FNP and overwatch killing them off.
as has been discussed earlier at length, combat wyches are not really viable anymore. They can work in a less competitive sense. 10 is always too many but 7-8 can work. Just not as well as they use to with their nerfed charge range, overwatch, and FNP nerf.
Splinter racks should be modeled, have a lot of the spare splinter cannons glued onto the vehicle. Flickerfields and Night shields need not be modeled.
Ovion wrote:Spare splinter rifles, or ammo piles or something should be modeled on.
Fields don't need to be done, but you could try taking a heatgun to a sheet of clear plastic and softening it over the top to make a clear 'shell'. It's what I intend to do once I source the appropriate plastic (had one but was too flimsy ><
That is a hideously ineffective way to deal with AV anything.
Shatterfield missiles are best used to force as many saves as possible on infantry, not dealing with vehicles. They can only ever cause one hit (at best) and can only ever be fired once. It's like an autocannon that can only ever be fired once.
One autocannon isn't scary. It's a half dozen plus that makes vehicles think twice.
I'm a semi new player to dark eldar. I've been slowly building a dark eldar (I have 3 raiders but I'm wanting about 7 in total) and I am looking to get a heacy support soon. So I have been really wanting to know what is a good heavy support for a mech dark eldar that is assault with a few shooty warriors supporting them.
Your options are really Ravagers, Razorwings or Voidravens for a mech list.
Ravagers are are a decent, cheap gunship, with 3 lances or 3 dissies (or a mix of both). Personally, when I run Ravagers, I run them all with Lances, then all my Raiders with Dissies.
Razorwings are great all round units. Decent dogfighters, effective against infantry, vehicles and flyers.
Voidravens are Armour Hunters through and through, good for dedicated tank hunting.
The dark eldar play style now just seems to be reaver spam, venom spam, or baron and beast spam with many haywyches. As much as I like the ideas of the missiles, razor wing spams aren't going to be the main AI in my army, especially with all the warriors and venoms that are taking that role for a cheaper price IMO. I've been thinking, of a list, with just one 5 wyche venom with hay wires on suicide tank hunting, and a ravager to deal with what the haywyches miss. With AI out my ears due to raider gunboats and an arch on with watches for MC or IC hunting, and 3 reavers with blasters for dual AT and AI roles, does that sound viable at all?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oops, 3 squads of 3 reavers, just three sounds a bit pointless, and possibly beasts when I get money, but generally, how viable is this a a lsit,? In your opinions.
Mushkilla wrote: Had a Dark Eldar Civil War game the other day. Here is the report if anyone is interested (picture as usual). What are peoples thoughts on DEvsDE?
Mushkilla, sorry to hear about the loss to our own kind. I really like reading your battle reports, because you do things that I'm usually to cautious to try and they usually pay off for you. I personally wouldn't have played against that guy. A super spammy list isn't fun for me to play against, or even play. It just seems really boring.
CrimsonKing wrote: Mushkilla, sorry to hear about the loss to our own kind. I really like reading your battle reports, because you do things that I'm usually to cautious to try and they usually pay off for you. I personally wouldn't have played against that guy. A super spammy list isn't fun for me to play against, or even play. It just seems really boring.
The venom spam list technically used more unit entries then mushkillas. Both spam but reavers are not seen traditionally, so I guess you could say his feels less common. This is really a bad matchup, his volume of fire paired with msu makes it a struggle for your army, like your last report I think your best route to victory in this type of game is purge the alien, which unfortunately is 1/6 now in 6th Guard, DE venom, and GKmsu are always going to be a problem however your list has proven great in just about every other category which is outstanding!
I can't think of anyone aside from a sore loser who'd call it cheesy.
Hell, if I were to criticize anything at all about it, I'd criticize it for being inefficient in some places. However, you are a fine enough player to make such feedback unnecessary.
Redundancy, AKA spam, isn't a bad thing. It's only bad when it's a criminally efficient/underpriced unit that is being made redundant. I always encourage redundancy, even in fluffernutter lists. It's just a good thing to have.
I can't think of anyone aside from a sore loser who'd call it cheesy.
Kind words, but I think there was a misunderstanding. When I said I need to make my list more balanced, I meant more effective against a larger range of opponents. It wasn't a response to the "spam" comment. I spent a small fortune on 27 reaver, damn right I'm going to use them, not to mention it means my entire 1500 point DE army fits in one standard GW case, makes carrying it around so easy.
Redundancy, AKA spam, isn't a bad thing. It's only bad when it's a criminally efficient/underpriced unit that is being made redundant. I always encourage redundancy, even in fluffernutter lists. It's just a good thing to have.
I completely agree, redundancy is really important in any list.
I can't think of anyone aside from a sore loser who'd call it cheesy.
Kind words, but I think there was a misunderstanding. When I said I need to make my list more balanced, I meant more effective against a larger range of opponents. It wasn't a response to the "spam" comment. I spent a small fortune on 27 reaver, damn right I'm going to use them, not to mention it means my entire 1500 point DE army fits in one standard GW case, makes carrying it around so easy. .
back in the day the DE battleforce came with 20 warriors, 5 reavers and 1 raider. I bought a ton as the reavers alone made the thing cost effective.
The pgl isn't really necessary unless you're attaching him to a squad of incubi. The venom blade is cheap, but doesn't do as much damage as agonizer. shadowfield is standard.
It's a rather standard setup for an archon, but we really need to know what you want to do with him, which unit are you putting him with? I usually always drug my archon up, but that's just me, I think, it's a cheap upgrade that could get me something good in CC(though I have a record of 90% run drugs so far...). PGL, I'd say is a high recommended upgrade in most cases -most of our worthy assault units have no grenades-, but it depends if your group plays on a terrain heavy table, if your opponents like to hide in cover, etc.
As for venom blade vs agoniser, it depends on who you're planning to use the archon against, against 2+ unit, venom blade would work better, against 3+, agoniser. Huskblade is good(I use it on my archon), but it does cost a lot, so venom blade is a perfectly fine option.
eldartau1987 wrote: Hey everyone, I just stumbled on this thread and I feel that I have learned tons already.
i was wondering if anyone would be willing to chime in on a potential Archon build that I want to try
Archon
Shadowfield
PGL Venom Blade.
Does this seem optimal to anyone?
The problem with any Dark Eldar CC character, from a simple Succubus to Vect himself, is the escort you provide.
Wyches used to be the method of choice, because they are cheap and come with a cheap transport. Plus they fulfilled a support role for any character in CC. Wyches have been nerfed into the ground in that role with the introduction of 6th. They die horribly when their transport blows up. They die horribly when they have to crawl across the board after their transport blows up. They die some more to overwatch fire. And when they somehow managed to reach assault and your tooled up Archon kills your opponent's unit in one go, they die idling in the middle of your opponent's force.
You could put your Archon in a unit with Incubi and put them in a Venom or Raider. Then grab a bucket filled with red paint, dip that transport in it and write "AIM HERE" on it in big white letters. They probably won't die as easily to your opponent's pea shooters, but after wiping out that one squad in assault three times over, you will still be gunned down.
Your Archon with Harlequins can be viable. Stealth + Shrouded protects your retinue quite well. At least until Mr Flamer comes along. PGL not required though. Pairing him with Grotesques can work out ok, at least until their Raider gets blown up. They'll actually survive that though and T5, FnP and some cover will go a long way of keeping the squad alive against enemy fire. Keep the PGL with Grotesques. Both these setups can get quite expensive though, both in points and money.
In my opinion the best option: don't take an Archon. Either take a cheap Heamy as your HQ, sharing that pain token with a blob of Warriors or Wracks. Or get Baron Sathonyx with a Beastmaster squad. They're quite nasty.
ThePhish wrote: The pgl isn't really necessary unless you're attaching him to a squad of incubi. The venom blade is cheap, but doesn't do as much damage as agonizer. shadowfield is standard.
Damage output of a Venom Blade depends on what it's hitting. It does better than an Agonizer against anything with a 2+ save, and almost always better against T3 than an Agonizer thanks to it being properly poisoned and so the Archon gets re-rolls to wound.
On the charge with a venom blade against MEQ he causes 1 wound, Agonizer causes 2. On the charge with a VB against TEQ he causes 0.6 wounds, Agonizer causes 0.3. On the charge against 5+ save GEQ with a VB he causes 2.6 wounds, Agonizer causes 2 wounds. Against GEQs with a 4+ save the VB causes 1.9 wounds, Agonizer causes 2 wounds.
So the Agonizer, mathematically speaking, is only better against MEQs and T3 models with a 4+ save.
I really should have stated who I was putting him with. I am going to use him with incubi in a raider along with a haemi for the pain token but I do really see the point on just taking a Haemi and forgoing the archon altogether.
I'm kind of toying with the idea of a group of four incubi led by a Haemonculus with the usual toys and a Venom.
Cheaper than the beast star, more limited too, but always AP 2, doesn't need to rely on rends to deal with terminators.
Probably the only 'death star' in the entire DE codex I would consider.
I've noticed that playing DE as my first army has affected my views on every other army. I look at tactical squads who cost something like 190 points and just baulk at the idea of spending that much on something before it even has a transport. Even things that don't really need transports. It's difficult overcoming that urge to put absolutely everything in some sort of dedicated transport.
ThePhish wrote: The pgl isn't really necessary unless you're attaching him to a squad of incubi. The venom blade is cheap, but doesn't do as much damage as agonizer. shadowfield is standard.
For your viewing pleasure Math-hammer on successful Wounds caused by Archon (Str3) with 5 I7 Attacks (base) with:
5pt Venom Blade: Average - 1.5046
At the end of the day, 2+ Poison is fantastic and for 5 points.
Lokas wrote: I've noticed that playing DE as my first army has affected my views on every other army. I look at tactical squads who cost something like 190 points and just baulk at the idea of spending that much on something before it even has a transport. Even things that don't really need transports. It's difficult overcoming that urge to put absolutely everything in some sort of dedicated transport.
I know how this, Oh and how - 250pts for a tank!? that's almost my entire HS budget!
Tau was bad enough, but with using wracks / Grotesques, 120-135 pt troops wasn't that unheard of, but then that's fully kitted out units, so 60-120pt firewarriors and battlesuits wasn't so bad.
But CSM are 140pts base for the 10 men to get special / heavy weapons!
My CSM termi lord is 150 pts with 1 weapon! That's almost 3 Haems. 40+ pts a 1w termi model! 200+ pt vehicles, it's insane...
Those units that cost twice as much as one from the Dark Eldar codex can be three times as durable or more. I mean, the armor save alone justifies the extra cost. I've got caught completely forgetting to take my armor saves, being so used to everything ignoring my 5+'s and 6+'s.
Not to mention, all Marines have access to the criminally inexpensive Rhino for dedicated transport. I'm convinced that people complaining about its durability issues are a part of a brilliant comedy bit. Yeah, the Rhino isn't exactly a Land Raider, but a Raider is twice the price and half as durable. A venom even less so.
I just picked up a bunch of Dark Eldar from a friend who got out of the hobby a while back.
All his DE are old 3rd edition ones, but there's a lot of them, and a bunch of them are metal.
Something like...
60 warriors + 8 with lances / blasters on their shoulders
16 wytches
18 incubi
1 succubus
1 sybarite
3 scourges
7 raiders
9 reavers
My question is... what should I do with these guys?
Can I form a reasonable army out of them without having to buy many new models? I know i'll need to grab an archon and maybe a ravager, but what else do you think I might need to make a decent army out of this lot?
Ovion wrote: He has Old-School Raiders though - add on some extra lances (possibly extra armour) and that classic Raider is a Ravager!
I'll try and figure out a reasonable list and/or shopping list for you when I'm more awake!
I wasn't able to find much on Ebay that would help with a conversion, alas.
I'm thinking, at the moment.... that I might need to pick up an Archon, a Ravager box, a Scourge box.. as a minimum... and anything after that is for extra spice. Am I right in thinking that?
Get some Instant Mold and some Greenstuff / Milliput / whatever, that's an easy way to cast up ridiculously out of production components.
I converted my raiders to have nose mounted, computer controlled, under-slung lances, which combine the old Reaver 'tail' and a lance, so making more is a nightmare - but I'm in the process of casting up 15 more of this incredibly hard to get combination of parts, and going to make and cast, 21 under-slung Dissie Cannons, so I can run all my classic hulls as Raiders or Ravagers, with either weapon
Alternatively, making up Warriors with Lances / Dissies and sticking them on the decking works.
Making a Lance with a classic warrior is easy - use an Elven lance from WHFB (High Elves or Dark Elves), cut off the blade and grip, then glue it to the front of a splinter Rifle that you've cut the barrel off of.
For a Dissie... WHFB Knights? lances cut to half length? (The thicker ones, for a heavier barrel).
Also - cutting the annoyingly oversized wings off the classic raiders is helpful, and good for transporting the models.
As can be seen here:
I see almost everyone using a sybarite with an squat Kabalites... I have in all my games (against tyranids) never had any close contact with my kabalites, so the sybarite was always very useless... Is he worth the point for the one time you get cc?
And with the 6th E... what can I use the best against those bloody monstrous creatures? I have no elite yet, but they are on my birthday wish list....
manishdra wrote: I see almost everyone using a sybarite with an squat Kabalites... I have in all my games (against tyranids) never had any close contact with my kabalites, so the sybarite was always very useless... Is he worth the point for the one time you get cc?
And with the 6th E... what can I use the best against those bloody monstrous creatures? I have no elite yet, but they are on my birthday wish list....
he isnt useful in CC, but he might be useful for the +1 ld. Running MSU he isnt worth it, but on a big squad not getting pinned to broken from shooting is important
I never run a Sybarite, I have never found him to be of any use.
I model sybarites just because I like the aesthetic of my squads having squad leaders, but they're equipped with the basic splinter rifle so as to be WYSIWYG, the only difference is that they have more spikes and a big trophy rack.
I also go to great lengths to tell my opponent that they count as regular warriors and have back up warriors if my opponent tells me they're not cool with that. Which has only happened once thus far.
I also go to great lengths to tell my opponent that they count as regular warriors and have back up warriors if my opponent tells me they're not cool with that. Which has only happened once thus far.
One opponent got huffy? Wow, I would be in serious trouble as I have some trueborn that look normal and some that are decorated to show their stance.
manishdra wrote: I see almost everyone using a sybarite with an squat Kabalites... I have in all my games (against tyranids) never had any close contact with my kabalites, so the sybarite was always very useless... Is he worth the point for the one time you get cc?
And with the 6th E... what can I use the best against those bloody monstrous creatures? I have no elite yet, but they are on my birthday wish list....
If as a Dark Eldar you have a problem with monstrous creatures, you're doing it wrong :p
Really wrong.. As in deliberately working at letting them live.
Splinter weapons and lances dont give a damn about their high toughness and lances dont care about their armour save.
Dissies ignore the armour save and have a fair chance of hurting mc's.
Throw some splinter weaponry and / or some lance fire at them, and they should fall over.
One opponent got huffy? Wow, I would be in serious trouble as I have some trueborn that look normal and some that are decorated to show their stance.
Huffy?
Oh no.
He was just a newer player, didn't know the Dark Eldar codex at all, so the whole looks like a sybarite but not a sybarite thing made him a little uncomfortable, he said so, so I pulled out some basic warriors instead. It was all handled politely. It wasn't like the blown up terror stories you hear all over dakka about TFGs throwing dreadnaughts and smashing models with a hammer. He expressed discomfort, so I acquiesced and pulled out my alternative models.
I just assumed ( sorry for doing that to you) that you were dealing with a TFG. The bunker where I play has a few guys who whine and cry about that stuff. They are all 40k players O.o.
But does the sybarite give the whole squat +1 Leadership? Not that my kabalites ever ran... they never got the time or lost with the leadership test..
Let's I say it different... has there something changed so I might win from the Tyranids (with to much mc's)? I got some usefull tips some while ago, but that was before the 6th and my wyches are know shot out of their vehicle and in the open before they can assault... I have got some rasorwings but last time the dices kept him to long from the board... and then they forgot their glasses because my missiles were scattered everywhere except where I needed them.
You always use the highest Ld in the unit, if you've bought a sybarite, then yes, your unit becomes Ld9, until the sybarite is dead.
As for MC, what kinda list do you run? It really is hard to imagine DE having serious trouble against them, we do have plenty of weapons(see: Ovion's reply) to deal with their high toughness, so without knowing your list and what changes you're willing to make, the best advice is to as Ovion said: more splinter/lance.
Dissies have always failed miserably against MC's for me. MC's being T6, rolling 5's to wound is not something my dice are capable of.
DL's and mass poison gets it done easy enough.
I got some usefull tips some while ago, but that was before the 6th and my wyches are know shot out of their vehicle and in the open before they can assault
Tactics have changed somewhat in 6th. Making it into true cc with another squad isn't as easy to do any more and live through it. Wyches seem to be getting used more as an AT unit and used less to assault other troops. Still do-able, just not as adviseable.
Personally, I never really tried to engage MCs in close combat. If I did, it was as a last resort with Wyches, because of the 4++ save, and that's not changed, but the primary tactic is still to pour splinter fire at them.
Foo wrote: Personally, I never really tried to engage MCs in close combat. If I did, it was as a last resort with Wyches, because of the 4++ save, and that's not changed, but the primary tactic is still to pour splinter fire at them.
wracks do pretty well, usually get their FNP and their posioned weapons put out a ton of wounds
Has anyone played around with small, 3 "man" squads of trueborn, armed with 2 splinter cannons or 2 dark lances as a cheaper alternative to venoms and ravagers? And with any success?
(it's probably not the best combo but say you're all out of venoms, don't own the models or you've filled all three heavy slots with ravagers already and you need a couple of more dark lances in your list.)
Deploy in cover and atleast you won't get one shotted by a LasCanEQ...
I wouldn't consider doing that... You'd be giving up one of the biggest strengths of DE, which is their mobility. I think it'd be an easy kill point for your opponent.
It's a decent way to get Dark Lances though. Sniper teams die to a stray fart, but they might do some damage.
^^ meant that. Still kinda stuck in 5th. My issue is they don't have very good mobility, and they are super fragile. But go for it, if you have no other options right now.
A 2 Lance Trueborn squad is 86 points.
They are T3, with 3 wounds overall and a 5+ save.
Furthermore, they cannot move and fire effectively.
If they take 1 wound, they have a chance of fleeing.
3 With 2 Splinter Cannons is 56 points, and on foot face much the same problems as above, though are slightly more mobile.
However, 3 Trueborn with 2 Cannons in a Venom, makes 4 Splinter Cannons for 20-24 shots a turn (DakkaVenom). It's even a unit I've used to great effect. I tend put Night Shields on to protect it from the small arms return fire though.
It's one of those things I'd consider if I had a stray <100 points to spend and had filled up most of my other slots.
I wouldn't field three of them, because that's only six lances you're adding (the equivalent to 2 Ravagers) for 260~ points. Not to mention they still all die to a stray fart and you're basically giving first blood away.
The dakkavenom is something I would use if I ever needed more anti-infantry killing power in my lists. This is rarely the case though, so while definitely a good choice, not one I personally use.
On a thought (and a different variant of the Venom Spam list I haven't seen before... though it may already exist) that might be fun to work towards:
1x Haemonculi w/ Liquifier Gun, Hex Rifle
3x 3 Kabalite Trueborn w/ 2 Splinter Cannons
On Venom w/ Add. Splinter Cannon 363
6x 5 Wyches w/ Haywire Grenades
On Venom w/ Add. Splinter Cannon 750
2x Voidraven Bomber w/ Flickerfield 310
1498
Not a big fan of the classic 'Venom Spam' lists, but I do want to work towards owning 9 Venoms, 12 Raider/Ravagers, a pair of Tantalus anyway, so
I like that list, but I foresee it having trouble with transport heavy lists and flier heavy lists.
Although the 6+ flier lists are pretty much a hard counter to DE, since even 3x voidravens and a quad-gun aren't going to put enough of a dent in that.
As for why I'd see it having trouble with transport heavy lists, the majority of its anti-tank power is in the haywyches. Haywyches, in my experience, are a very poor choice for killing transports. Not because they struggle with it, haywyches don't struggle at killing anything with an armor value. It's that they'd kill it and then the contents would pour out to evaporate them, so you trade 60 points of wyches for 35-60 points of transport, but you lose a scoring unit in the bargain. Considering how important scoring units are this edition, that's not a fair trade.
Lokas wrote: I like that list, but I foresee it having trouble with transport heavy lists and flier heavy lists.
Although the 6+ flier lists are pretty much a hard counter to DE, since even 3x voidravens and a quad-gun aren't going to put enough of a dent in that.
As for why I'd see it having trouble with transport heavy lists, the majority of its anti-tank power is in the haywyches. Haywyches, in my experience, are a very poor choice for killing transports. Not because they struggle with it, haywyches don't struggle at killing anything with an armor value. It's that they'd kill it and then the contents would pour out to evaporate them, so you trade 60 points of wyches for 35-60 points of transport, but you lose a scoring unit in the bargain. Considering how important scoring units are this edition, that's not a fair trade.
Unless you block the access points, then the squad inside evaporates with the vehicle, making 10 haywyches in a raider seem almost viable, though open topped would be a problem, methinks. But that's just my opinion.
Which is actually possible to do with 10~ wyches using full distance between bases. I do it quite often when I can, it's a great way to make whole squads go bye-bye. However, it's trick to get the movement necessary to completely surround a vehicle.
And if you don't completely surround it, they emergency disembark, pass their pinning test (because I have yet to see a single one of these failed in 6th) and shoot up the haywyches.
As Ascalam said, if you two it would be easier, and usually you'll want the transport destroyed if its got MEQs or something in it, which in any case you probably outnumber them almost 2-1
Oh, no doubt. That's how I usually do it, two venoms splitting off to charge either side of the rhino/razorback/whatever.
However, there's still a lot of factors involved here. Terrain, interfering units, random charge length, etcetera etcetera.
Having actually put this tactic to work in-game as many times as I possibly can (especially when there is an expensive unit trapped inside that metal box) I can confidently say that it's fething fantastic. When it works. There's a lot that can go wrong though, and haywyches should not be your only method of dealing with transports. Even if the meta has shifted away from transport spam, it's still a good idea to have some back up AT.
Ravagers fulfill this role in my lists, although sometimes Reavers get forced into it, and the Voidravens could work well enough depending on how many transports your enemy has.
Say you'd want to equip a squad of 6 reavers with both 2 cluster caltrops and 2 heat lances.
Would you (assuming I interpret the rules correctly) go for the "all eggs in one basket" approach and give the cluster caltrops upgrades to the models armed with heat lances or would you prefer to give them to models armed with the stock splinter rifle to avoid loosing a model armed with both upgrades to say precision shots or focus fire?
Most of my reavers just use heat lances in squads of 3, and in an upcoming battle my list has 18 reavers, which makes things quite hard to keep track of IMO, and there is almost too much to shoot at, and bladvanes are just as good for dealing with infantry, so I don't think there is really too Much need for the caltrops.
And if you don't completely surround it, they emergency disembark, pass their pinning test (because I have yet to see a single one of these failed in 6th) and shoot up the haywyches.
well I have yet to pass one of those... EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!
I haven't personally tried it, but it seems that the new easier reserves rolls make a wwp perform worse. Unless you drop it on your first turn, there's going to be a 2/3 chance per squad you don't get to use it.
Team with eldars and get an autarch. Runne them with grotesques and ad a haemonculy to the dark eldar warrior squads. Now you have a whole lott of wounds. I would probably run this with flyers and not so mutch else.
Mimete wrote: I haven't personally tried it, but it seems that the new easier reserves rolls make a wwp perform worse. Unless you drop it on your first turn, there's going to be a 2/3 chance per squad you don't get to use it.
And there is no way i can think of to drop it on turn one further than 6'' from your deployment zone. Turn 2 yeas, if you don't mind losing an HQ and a fast as hell transport (or a Sliscus DS'ing one) to get him there, but odds are the reserves you want coming in will be plodding in from your board edge by then.
WWP are pretty much useless these days. They were spendy but useful in 5th.
Mimete wrote: I haven't personally tried it, but it seems that the new easier reserves rolls make a wwp perform worse. Unless you drop it on your first turn, there's going to be a 2/3 chance per squad you don't get to use it.
And there is no way i can think of to drop it on turn one further than 6'' from your deployment zone. Turn 2 yeas, if you don't mind losing an HQ and a fast as hell transport (or a Sliscus DS'ing one) to get him there, but odds are the reserves you want coming in will be plodding in from your board edge by then.
WWP are pretty much useless these days. They were spendy but useful in 5th.
I can think of a way to get it over 12"-15" from the deployment zone.
You deploy your transport at the deployment line
Move transport 6"
Troops get out 6"
Drop WWP in Base Contact with carrier
Close edge is 12" from deployment zone, far edge is 15" from deployment zone
Turn 2+, Troops can get out and move 6" from the WWP, putting them within 18"-21" from the deployment zone.
That's 30"-33" from the board edge. in standard straight-line deployment.
The problem for me is of course - no assault. So I rush in, drop my Webway Portals ready for my coven to come through - the enemy moves away.
My nice plodding flesh fiends are now playing catchup, instead of being able to get into combat...
I'll try a WWP list soon though... Eldar Allies with an Autarch, some Storm Guardians in a Wave Serpent and a Wraithlord, along with 3 Venoms containing Haemonculi and Wracks... should give me up 13 units I can deploy in the webway ( 3 Talos, 3 squads of Grotesques and 3 Squads of Wracks are 9, so I can do it the list at least )
Who knows how it'll do... probably poorly, we'll see.
Yeah - if they'd have said something like 'Units deploying from Webway Portal are treated as disembarking from an Open-Topped vehicle, that'd be great - and they'd be usable as intended. Sucks doesn't it.
Because I'm mildly bored, I made these: _________________Dawn of War___________________________________Hammer and Anvil_________________________________Vanguard Strike_________________ __ These show the turn 1 Deployment Zones for a WWP. In these diagrams, the 3 pronged Dark Blue Triangle is a Raider, the first Arrow is its movement, the second arrow the unit insides deployment, the Blue Circle is the Webway Portal Marker. The Red Arrows (and circle under it) are the standard 6" move of units coming out of the portal. (Of course other unit types will be able to move further) The first band (that ends in line with the far edge of the Blue WWP marker) shows the area in your deployment zone you'll be able to drop your WWP. The second band shows the max distance 'standard' troops will be able to deploy from it. (In straight line from where the WWP was deployed.)
Avid fan of DE here. Just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for contributing to this forum, it has been very helpful to me so far. I live in NJ and have been without power for almost two weeks now thanks to the storm that decimated the north east and one of the things I have done to stave off the boredom is crack open my codex and number crunch and study. Thanks to my job (there now, work at a comic book store ) and lovely girlfriend (who lives five mins from my store) I have had access to electricity and therefore this forum which has helped me make some tough decisions, reaffirmed some strategies I had, helped rethink other strategies I had in 5th, the list goes on.
At the risk of sounding redundant I am going to offer my opinions on what I have read thus far. While I do agree with many of the people who are griping about 6th changing how the DE were meant to be played (less powerful assault and alpha strike for a very assault themed race both fluff wise and game wise etc etc) I also agree with the sentiment that it just means we have to grin, bear it, and adapt our play style. The meta shift in 6th to more infantry based army lists I feel is a boon not a hindrance to DE because I feel DE excel at anti infantry more than anti armor. Being a DE player in 5th was rough at times since one of my friends who I play with fields IG. Even with him trying not to cheese out since we play for fun casually I still found it difficult to deal with his list since IG's strong point (one of them anyway) is their armored division. Since switching to a more shooty based army in 6th I have had a good deal of success so far at my FLGS and my DE are making the group I play with take heed especially now that I have transitioned my wyches role to being anti armor assault MSU's.
Overall DE are still a great army, but just like before 6th they are an army that requires a good grasp of the game's mechanics and strategy to do well with. Even in a casual setting DE are almost always a blowout army, either you curb stomp them or they curb stomp you, very rare is it an even, tit-for-tat kind of game with them involved which means the victories can feel great but the defeats can be rather discouraging. That being said, though I would not recommend everyone get into 40k with them as your first army like I did I am still glad I chose them as my first, it has forced me to become a better player quicker than I might have otherwise and fluff wise I find them to be the coolest thing in the 40k universe.
Just my two cents worth from personal experience, reaver jet bikes are amazing whether they are a 3-man bladevane nuisance or a six+ deathstar. Also, thanks to this forum I have discovered how amazing Baron is as an HQ. Just wanted everyone's thoughts on putting him with scourges? Of all my models I am the most proud of the paint job on my scourges yet I have had trouble in the past justifying running them due to their relative fragility and high point cost. I recently tried them as a five man with two dark lances with Baron attached to give them a 3+ cover in ruins to great success, and the hit-and-run and defensive grenades Baron gives them allowed them to survive an Incubi assault, break away and exact revenge by shooting the Incubi to death the next turn.
If I were running scourges, it'd be 5 man, two splinter cannons.
Using the baron with them is an interesting take, something I hadn't thought of and may just have to try in the future. But yeah, you pay out the ass for those shardcarbines and don't get a points discount for further upgrades. Which is silly beyond belief but I digress. You want to be shooting those shardcarbines, putting out as many wounds as possible. All of the AT options for scourges conflict with this, and you can't spam them with scourges. Two per five just isn't enough firepower to reliably kill tanks. You can annoy tanks with haywire blasters, I'd rather just throw the splinter cannons in there to make them really really fething good at killing infantry. Keep them focused and they can absolutely maul infantry units. The splinter pods on Baron's skyboard help with this as well, he contributes firepower to the unit.
There's actually a good deal of synergy here that I hadn't previously thought of.
A warrior blob experiment goes horribly wrong as I desperately search for the solution to winning Dark Eldar Mirror match-ups. Battle report bellow (pictures as usual).
Warrior blobs seem to be able to take a real beating if they have a good cover save, however due to their static nature they force you to split your forces.
Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?
Agree with almost everything there, but I would not bother with the Splinter Cannons. The high cost of the uprgrade, for me, makes the unit too costly for it's vulnerability. Five shardcarbines can harrass enemy infantry whilst keeping in relative cover, and in my experience, tend to not draw fire as other, more threatening targets, approach them enemy. This mistake can be quite costly for the enemy.
@Mushkilla
Nice batrep. Personally, I would have put Haemonculi in the Warrior blobs - I think it would have mitigated your losses a fair bit,.
Mushkilla wrote: A warrior blob experiment goes horribly wrong as I desperately search for the solution to winning Dark Eldar Mirror match-ups. Battle report bellow (pictures as usual).
Warrior blobs seem to be able to take a real beating if they have a good cover save, however due to their static nature they force you to split your forces.
Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?
I haven't had too much experience, but a haemy would reduce their losses, hopefully, buy a bit, and IMO dark lances aren't that good in warrior squads, maybe next time use splinter cannons and/or shredders, as str 6 blast weapons can still take out a raider, ravager and insta-kill most DE squads, love your batreps, especially your civil war ones, much insight into out own weaknesses, and I still chuckle whenever refers to an AV 11 ravager 'armour'.
Agree with almost everything there, but I would not bother with the Splinter Cannons. The high cost of the uprgrade, for me, makes the unit too costly for it's vulnerability. Five shardcarbines can harrass enemy infantry whilst keeping in relative cover, and in my experience, tend to not draw fire as other, more threatening targets, approach them enemy. This mistake can be quite costly for the enemy.
See, I partially agree with you there. I pondered a lot about the upgrades for Scourges, but in the end it wasn't the extra shots of the splinter cannons that made me decide they were worth taking. It was the range.
There are certain situations you just do not want to be within 18 inches of the enemy. You don't have enough local forces to overwhelm your enemy with target saturation, you're facing fast-moving assault units, there's lots of mechanized forces on the field, etcetera, etcetera. The points you spend on the splinter cannons give you the flexibility to have a much wider threat range, and this is a massive defensive boon for Scourges because it limits the number of units that can fire back. And you can still bound into their shardcarbine range to totally wipe out depleted units, or when the situation calls for it, but you also can hang back and keep your unit more reliably alive. I know it seems a bit silly to pour more points into an already overpriced unit to make the most of it, but really, the extra points for the splinter cannons makes them so much more durable because you don't have to throw them into bad situations because of their short range or face the alternative of just not shooting at all.
Agree with almost everything there, but I would not bother with the Splinter Cannons. The high cost of the uprgrade, for me, makes the unit too costly for it's vulnerability. Five shardcarbines can harrass enemy infantry whilst keeping in relative cover, and in my experience, tend to not draw fire as other, more threatening targets, approach them enemy. This mistake can be quite costly for the enemy.
See, I partially agree with you there. I pondered a lot about the upgrades for Scourges, but in the end it wasn't the extra shots of the splinter cannons that made me decide they were worth taking. It was the range.
There are certain situations you just do not want to be within 18 inches of the enemy. You don't have enough local forces to overwhelm your enemy with target saturation, you're facing fast-moving assault units, there's lots of mechanized forces on the field, etcetera, etcetera. The points you spend on the splinter cannons give you the flexibility to have a much wider threat range, and this is a massive defensive boon for Scourges because it limits the number of units that can fire back. And you can still bound into their shardcarbine range to totally wipe out depleted units, or when the situation calls for it, but you also can hang back and keep your unit more reliably alive. I know it seems a bit silly to pour more points into an already overpriced unit to make the most of it, but really, the extra points for the splinter cannons makes them so much more durable because you don't have to throw them into bad situations because of their short range or face the alternative of just not shooting at all.
Hmm, interesting thought. My main problem with that is, yes, the points cost for having a unit that only firing from two models - but that's not to say that I don't see the merit there. It's a nice way to add in some extra AI firepower from a flexible and mobile position - one that's arguably tougher than, say, a venom. I might have to give it a try at some point, see how it works for me. As it stands, I've had a lot of use with naked Scourges popping around the back field hiding in cover and forcing the opponent to absorb the shardcarbine fire or to split his assault - this would be an interesting new way to use them.
Mushkilla wrote: Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?
Actually, yes, yes I have.
In my 1850 list, I run a warrior blob with 2 splinter cannons to great effect.
Looking at your list, I'd suggest you take the same route I do with them since your list and my list actually share a lot of common traits.
Take the duke as an HQ instead. You can deploy him with the warrior blob to make the entire mess a lot more deadly. I'd suggest taking splinter cannons to make the most of this, especially since you can put the splinter cannons in the second rank of a unit, move 6" forward and keep the splinter cannon guys totally still, just move the rest of the unit, and fire their 6 shots. Free turn of full strength shooting while moving forward. Sometimes you can get two turns of that before they're forced to move if you're clever. Now, when those splinter cannons are wounding on a 3+? That's really really bueno.
The duke would also benefit other elements of your army very well. Does army-wide feel no pain sound nice to you? I bet it does, and with the duke's reroll on the drug table, it's totally plausible. Even if you want the duke to go off and assault with the wyches, you can detach him from the warrior unit to join his harem and just leave the pain token with the Warriors for an ultra-durable blob. Your Reavers will have their pick of the drug crop and they will thank you for it.
That being said, I'd suggest only taking one warrior blob and keeping the rest of your troops mechanized. A warrior blob functions as a good anvil, durable as long as it's got cover or feel no pain and has enough wounds to deal with getting shot at for a few turns. Your rest of the army can function as the hammer, moving quickly to hit the enemy hard where they hide while your blob anchors down the flank and says 'Nope, no escape for you over here!'
Automatically Appended Next Post:
htj wrote: Hmm, interesting thought. My main problem with that is, yes, the points cost for having a unit that only firing from two models - but that's not to say that I don't see the merit there. It's a nice way to add in some extra AI firepower from a flexible and mobile position - one that's arguably tougher than, say, a venom. I might have to give it a try at some point, see how it works for me. As it stands, I've had a lot of use with naked Scourges popping around the back field hiding in cover and forcing the opponent to absorb the shardcarbine fire or to split his assault - this would be an interesting new way to use them.
Oh, I hate having to back off and only fire 2 models. It sucks wasting your shardcarbines. But it's better than throwing them in, losing them all, or backing off and firing none.
I'll often deploy them on the tallest piece of terrain in my deployment zone to give them a good field of view and try to use their splinter cannons to full effect before either diving in with the rest of my assault to do their dirty deeds or redeploying defensively. It's worked well the few times I've fussed with scourges, which are arguably going to increase since the synergy with them and Sathy brought to my attention.
I can definitely see some merit in using them as backfield harassers though. Personally, I wouldn't want to, as I don't trust any kind of deep strike that doesn't have a way to reduce scatter or reroll it. That's just my personal call though, I can totally see it as a good strategy.
Mushkilla wrote: A warrior blob experiment goes horribly wrong as I desperately search for the solution to winning Dark Eldar Mirror match-ups. Battle report bellow (pictures as usual).
Warrior blobs seem to be able to take a real beating if they have a good cover save, however due to their static nature they force you to split your forces.
Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?
Thank you very much for the data! I will take this into consideration!
So any tips against Tau Mechanised lists with their 3+ jink saves? And Tetras?
I had a game against them today and had a real tough time, to be frank I got Monta'Kaed. My list seems to suffer against armies that can spread out but are still mobile enough to concentrate their firepower. Here is the report (pictures as usual).
Mushkilla wrote: So any tips against Tau Mechanised lists with their 3+ jink saves? And Tetras?
I had a game against them today and had a real tough time, to be frank I got Monta'Kaed. My list seems to suffer against armies that can spread out but are still mobile enough to concentrate their firepower. Here is the report (pictures as usual).
One thing you may want to consider. If you're up against a mobile army that 'can' move to concentrate their firepower, you can still spread him out, and out-maneuver him. You castled up to begin with, when you could have hidden your reavers on the other end of the table, then turbo boosted back toward the rest of your forces, leaving 1/3 of his army out of range maybe if he moves to engage the reavers.
Also, as you suggested, dropping some of the reavers would probably be a good idea. I don't ever run any army over 1.5k without all 3 heavy slots filled. Half your army in jetbikes limits you on a lot of things. For all the good they do, they're expensive and eat points.
I just wanted to come on this post as I'm starting up 40k after a long break, and Im wanting to start up a DE army, Im not sure what units i should be buying etc. but I'll have about £120 to spend at the start, and will be obviously using discount stores.
I'm looking for a 750 pt army with that kind of money, but if it would have to be stretched then i wouldnt mind just getting a good core and building up to 750 later.
THANKYOU
I say start with the Codex and probably the Battleforce, a Venom, an Archon -or- Haemonculi and a Ravager -or- Razorwing - this will give you a solid starting force, in that points range and give you a decent spread of models to play with.
An Archon is a combat beasty, that boosts things like Incubi, Wyches and such.
The Haem is a cheap and cheerful HQ that has some fun toys, unlocks Wracks as troops and gives a unit a Pain Token.
I think really, as to where to go from there - that's up to you. The big thing here is definately getting your hands on the codex.
The only things you really want to avoid are Mandrakes, I think pretty much everything else in the codex is at least reasonably useful and relatively decent. Obviously some things do certain things better, but Mandrakes are almost universally awful, being too expensive for what they do (which is a shame, because I loved the original models and background, and thing the new models and fluff is awesome.)
Ok well I guess I'll choose the HQ when I understand a little more.
I'll go pick up a codex tomorrow.
But as i have no experience of 40k its all new to me.
I wouldnt know what to go with after what youve said.
But I definitily Like infantry unites and things like scourges hellions and reavers. as well as Incubi and Wracks aswell as the troupe. What advice would you have to give about what to go based on what ive said?
But i see a lot of lists with just a mass of venoms
That's because venoms are insanely effective and redundancy is important in any list, even a fluffernutter list.
If you want a foot DE list, I'd suggest looking around for NOVA tournament info. There was some player there (whose name escapes me at the moment) who placed very well there with a primarily foot list if memory serves me correctly. That would be a good jumping off point for a primarily foot list if you don't want to do a mass of venoms.
Personally, I love the aesthetic of a massive fleet of elegant skimmers, it's what drew me to the army to begin with.
Joel1 wrote: Ok well I guess I'll choose the HQ when I understand a little more.
I'll go pick up a codex tomorrow.
But as i have no experience of 40k its all new to me.
I wouldnt know what to go with after what youve said.
But I definitily Like infantry unites and things like scourges hellions and reavers. as well as Incubi and Wracks aswell as the troupe. What advice would you have to give about what to go based on what ive said?
But i see a lot of lists with just a mass of venoms
Just venom lists I think are boring too - I like a mix.
From what you've said - definately go with a HQ + a Battleforce or two + 1-2 Venoms (50/50 split of Raiders / Venoms ), then probably choose an Elites unit and Heavy Support unit to add flavour.
If you want a foot DE list, I'd suggest looking around for NOVA tournament info. There was some player there (whose name escapes me at the moment) who placed very well there with a primarily foot list if memory serves me correctly.
Speaking of Footdar.
I ran a foot list yesterday. One thing that really impressed me was the ability for talos with splinter cannons to reach out and slaughter infantry especially my opponents troops on home objective. On another note I found a use for the WWP as a support portal to prevent our fragile scoring units from giving up first blood. The link to the battle report is bellow (pictures as usual).
Like, I straight up adore it. I want to take it out to a five star restaurant, buy it the surf and turf and a bottle of their most expensive red wine and then cuddle with it on the couch while we watch romantic comedies.
Why? Why do I love that list?
Because it goes against every piece of the internet's 'common sense' logic and it fething works. It has plenty of scoring units and a means to keep them alive (via the WWP and reserves), it showcases how effective Talos can be, it doesn't take Ravagers or Venoms or Blasterborn, it's a work of pure DE ingenuity and cleverness. I love it.
However, I do have one minor criticism. And I do mean minor. I don't think the haemonculus ancient is a worthwhile upgrade, even though you're using him in an assault unit. I would suggest swapping that out just for a generic haemonculus and using the spare points to buy your grotesque a scissorhand. Scissorhands are pure amazing on grotesques thanks to how the new poison rules work, meaning you can get a boatload of rerollable attacks that wound on a 2+ with the scissorhand. It's pretty sexy. Other than that, I dunno. Might consider switching out the power axe for a venom blade? My reasoning being that, if you've got the scissorhand aberration, he can handle any challenges from 2+ save characters just by drowning them in a storm of attacks. The venom blade is cheaper and can put out more wounds on the chaff, while also preserving your mediocre initiative value. Mediocre is better than 'slower-than-necrons' tier.
Yeah, my only really issue would be the Ancient, and that I'm not a fan of Power Axes in DE... (your list's also 6 points over I think?) If you drop the Ancient to a Haem and the Power Axe to a Venom Blade, you can fit in a 7th Grotesque (and be 1501 instead of 1506) (Alternatively, I'd consider dropping an additional Grotesque, having 5 walkers and taking a 6th squad of 5 Wracks)
I really enjoy your battle reports. What do you use to create the pictures of the movement each turn? Those help me understand what's happening much better than the blurry, poorly framed photos a lot of people use.
This thread (and recently reading Path of the Renegade) is really inspiring me to start Dark Eldar. I have the mega force from last year just sitting here.
Because it goes against every piece of the internet's 'common sense' logic and it fething works. It has plenty of scoring units and a means to keep them alive (via the WWP and reserves), it showcases how effective Talos can be, it doesn't take Ravagers or Venoms or Blasterborn, it's a work of pure DE ingenuity and cleverness. I love it.
Thanks for the kind words! It's far from refined, I still need to work out the squad sizes of the wracks so that I have more flexibility with deployment and reserves (being able to keep both reaver squads in reserve, or all three taloi etc). So far it's all very experimental, but was a load of fun to play.
However, I do have one minor criticism. And I do mean minor. I don't think the haemonculus ancient is a worthwhile upgrade, even though you're using him in an assault unit.
My reasoning for the ancient is leadership 9, which is important when you depend on that grotesque unit not running off the board on the first turn. Sure you have to lose two grots before you test, but that's entirely feasible against some armies (focus fire from the three exorcists in that game could have done that). This ties in with well with the command table as it means the inspiring presence roll actually does something. Then there are the other benefits, the increased WS and A increase the haemies damage output in close combat by almost double. Initiative 5 is nice as it helps the grots with sweeping advance. Finally the extra wound doesn't hurt. All in all in my opinion I felt it was well worth the points. Hope that clarifies my reasoning a bit more.
Scissorhands are pure amazing on grotesques thanks to how the new poison rules work, meaning you can get a boatload of rerollable attacks that wound on a 2+ with the scissorhand. It's pretty sexy.
I personally don't find the scissor hands that appealing 10 more points for an extra attack and wounding on 3s (against T4) if you don't get the charge or are in prolonged combat isn't really worth it in my opinion. The venom blade is cheaper and ensures you are always wounding on 2s and you will have 5-6 attacks instead of 6-7. I do like think flesh-gauntlet is an interesting option due to the changes to how poison works (like you mentioned) and instant death, not to mention it ignores FNP.
Other than that, I dunno. Might consider switching out the power axe for a venom blade?
As you mentioned the Aberration is pretty strong in challenges, so he will be tying up unit champions and characters so that the haemonculus can hack away with his axe (5 WS5 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge is not that bad at all).
Ovion wrote: If you drop the Ancient to a Haem and the Power Axe to a Venom Blade, you can fit in a 7th Grotesque (and be 1501 instead of 1506)
I'm pretty sure my list is 1501 points (haemonculus get access to 10pts power weapons).
I really enjoy your battle reports. What do you use to create the pictures of the movement each turn? Those help me understand what's happening much better than the blurry, poorly framed photos a lot of people use.
Thanks.
Most of the time I use Battle Chronicler as its nice and simple, I also find its simple diagrams easier to read (Battle Chronicler Tutorial).
However, my more recent games have been using vassel and make natural diagrams for reports (as that's how you play the game online). I normally just touch them up in paint with a few arrows here and there to make movement clearer.
It's a fun looking list, I do agree that a haemonculus ancient is not giving you anything that the generic one can't give you, the reason I would never take one is the fact that it still T4 instead of T5, it's part of why I love Urien, that and the extra pain tokens and the fact that he is very decent in combat..
But my main concern is the one large squad of groteseques, I had this problem when I first started using them, manticores and orbital bombardments, they will make the squad disappear in a second. I use two squads of 5/6 so that even if one does get destroyed like that then they can't get both before I've destroyed it, especially with the cover going down to a 5+. Ofcourse you may not come across them as much as I do.
I wanted to be as fluffy as possible, using only the units from a haemonculi covens, reavers are a more optimal choice than scourges but I just love the models and they are still good. I used to have a WWP list until 6th hit, I am thinking of adding in some allies, either the farseer and pathfinders, or the ork doc to give my guys 5++ saves.
What's the general consensus on flickerfields in 6th? I'm torn. I've lost the roll to go first 3 out of the last 4 games I've played and it's cost 2-3 vehicles turn 1 with no save of any kind. Terrain wasn't thick enough to hide much behind etc. but I feel that some FF would be beneficial. On the other hand, I'm stingy with the points I have, trying to max out firepower as much as I can with the points that I have. I've listed my 2.5k list below that I've been playing recently for reference. I'm used to losing vehicles, it's what DE do, but if I can staunch the flow of dying transports, I will.
HQ Baron - 105 (goes w/ beasts)
1x Haemonculus w/ shattershard - 65 (attaches to bikes turn1, then hops in nearest available transport)
Troops
5x wyches w/ haywire in venom w/ 2x spl. cannons - 125
5x wyches w/ haywire in venom w/ 2x spl. cannons - 125
5x warriors w/ 1x blaster in raider w/ dissy - 120
5x warriors w/ 1x blaster in raider w/ dissy - 120
10x warriors w/ 1x blaster in raider w/ spl. rack and dissy - 175
10x warriors w/ 1x blaster in raider w/ spl. rack and dissy - 175
Elite
3x Trueborn w/ blaster in raider w/ dissy, night shield - 151
3x Trueborn w/ blaster in raider w/ dissy, night shield - 151
3x Trueborn w/ blaster in raider w/ dissy, night shield - 151
Flickerfields are still good.
They give an invun save, which works against Dangerous Terrain failiures, and against Melee attacks (also when immobilised for what it's worth).
As for your list - I would only ever take a Shattershard if I have the points spare. A Liquifier Gun is generally superior in that it will be reusable. Yes the Shattershard is nice, yes it's just take a Toughness Test or Die, but it's also a 15pt one-shot weapon.
Str4 AP-D6 should kill more models on average than the Shattershard.
ThePhish wrote: What's the general consensus on flickerfields in 6th? I'm torn. I've lost the roll to go first 3 out of the last 4 games I've played and it's cost 2-3 vehicles turn 1 with no save of any kind.
well venoms come with FF standard, so those go in front of your other vehicles giving those behind an obscured cover save. Otherwise you can try and hide them behind terain, which you said was thin. Dont play with thin terrain.
Flyers NEED the FF. You dont want to jink and lose your shooting next turn, also a lot of things that have skyfire also ignore cover saves, which jink is.
For me I also put them on Ravagers, I really want to keep them alive. Raiders just get too expensive.
Ovion wrote: Flickerfields are still good.
They give an invun save, which works against Dangerous Terrain failiures, and against Melee attacks (also when immobilised for what it's worth).
I hadn't considered the dangerous terrain failure.
As for your list - I would only ever take a Shattershard if I have the points spare. A Liquifier Gun is generally superior in that it will be reusable. Yes the Shattershard is nice, yes it's just take a Toughness Test or Die, but it's also a 15pt one-shot weapon.
Str4 AP-D6 should kill more models on average than the Shattershard.
I typically do take a liquifier on him. I had 6 points spare, so upgraded for gaks and giggles. They were all friendly games, and I used it for shennanigans to snipe HQ's if possible. I wouldn't take it in a tournament to avoid any rules disputes and would have the liquifier.
Exergy wrote:
well venoms come with FF standard, so those go in front of your other vehicles giving those behind an obscured cover save. Otherwise you can try and hide them behind terain, which you said was thin. Dont play with thin terrain.
Flyers NEED the FF. You dont want to jink and lose your shooting next turn, also a lot of things that have skyfire also ignore cover saves, which jink is.
I do use the venoms for cover on other vehicles for that reason, however, 2 hull points don't last very long. I used the terrain that was available to hide my Ravagers. I use raiders turned sideways for cover saves on as many other raiders as I can when I still need raiders in a certain area, but have no other cover available. My flyer did have a FF for the reasons you mentioned, see list above.
For me I also put them on Ravagers, I really want to keep them alive. Raiders just get too expensive.
Beyond turn 1, I have no issues avoiding terrain or 'not' moving my ravagers, so typically I hide from los completely if I go 2nd.
What I will probably end up doing is taking a couple of more flicker fields on the smaller warriors squads raiders and using them for the front models to provide cover.
eldartau1987 wrote:
I would also look at taking the blasters out of the 10 man units and putting in splinter cannons. That way you can max fire power.
I have considered that, but I like the option of having an AT weapon if I need one. The splinter rack doesn't work on spl. cannons, and the ride with the splinter rack won't be around forever.
Here is a list for 2000 points that I thought of. What do you think about it folks?
HQ Haemoculus
Liquifer gun
Venom Blade
65
The Duke 150
Troops
8 Kabalite Warriors
Raider Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Total 152
10 Kabalite Warriors
1 Splinter Cannon
Raider Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Total 180
10 Kabalite Warriors
1 Splinter Cannon
Raider Night Shields, Splinter Racks
Total 180
5 wyches
Haywire
Venom Splinter Cannon
Total 125
5 wyches
Haywire
Venom Splinter Cannon
Total 125
5 Wracks
Aberation
Venom Blade
Liquifier
Raider Nightshields
Total 145
Elites
3 X Trueborn
3x Blasters
Venom Splinter Cannon
Total 146
3 X Trueborn
3x Blasters
Venom Splinter Cannon
Total 146
Fast Attack
3x Bikes
1x Heat Lance
Total 100
3x Bikes
1x Heat Lance
Total 100
5 x Scourges
2 x Heat Lance
Total 134
5 x Scourges
2 x Heat Lance
Total 134
Heavy Support
Ravager
Nightshields
Total 115
Razorwing
Flickerfield
Total 145
What do people think of hybrid WWP lists where only a few shooty squads come into play from the portal? Things like venom Scourges, Talos Pain engines, etc.
virx67 wrote: What do people think of hybrid WWP lists where only a few shooty squads come into play from the portal? Things like venom Scourges, Talos Pain engines, etc.
Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
lord_bobbington wrote: ...getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
Also, bringing D-Cannons into an extremely inconvenient position for the enemy. Really compensates for their short range.
lord_bobbington wrote: Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(
Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.
Has anyone played around with a heavy assault army based around deepstriking Raiders (mayhaps lead by the Duke) in a relative safe place (to avoid mishaps) and then moving flat out in the shooting phase to get into position for assaults next turn? Would that be viable at all?
Tony2BIG wrote: Has anyone played around with a heavy assault army based around deepstriking Raiders (mayhaps lead by the Duke) in a relative safe place (to avoid mishaps) and then moving flat out in the shooting phase to get into position for assaults next turn? Would that be viable at all?
so you are going to DS, which means nothing on your turn 1
then no assault on turn 2
then flat out on turn 3
then finally assault on turn 4?
Why DS at all? Raiders can move 30" a turn if they flat out. Adding in the 12" disembark the turn you assault you can just move in from the board edge and reach anywhere on the table.
When you can move that fast there is no need to Deep Strike.
I was mainly thinking of using the WWP to bring in Talos/Chronos. Looking through the codex, these are really the only things that need it to get to the middle of the field. I like the models, and was trying to think of a way to make them be somewhat useful, as I feel that starting them on the edge of the board means that they would be too slow to accomplish anything. Since they wouldn't be able to assualt out of the WWP, I was thinking of taking Haywire Blasters/Liquifers on the Talos, and then Spirit Vortex on a Chronos. I probably wouldn't put anything else in the reserve, as they would benefit more from starting on the table.
My thoughts; DS turn 2 + Flat out or disembark (assuming you're using the duke's deepstrike rules)
assault turn 3
Why?
While moving flat out for two turns might still get you in an equally good position (as DS turn 2 + flat out) for assaults turn 3, that's still one more turn of taking fire from your opponent.
The idea of it all was to take as little enemy fire as possible on your raiders before getting the oppertunity to unload.
Is the unreliability of DS + flat out worth it to avoid a turn of enemy fire?
Depending on deployment etc. you could be assaulting turn 2 vs turn 3. That's not an option if you DS. You 'might' not get your reserves until turn 4, preventing you from assaulting until turn 5.
I have been pondering something: Blaster born vs the blast pistol. Blasters only have an 6" range increase over the blaster pistol. Instead of taking the weak 4 man trueborn squad with blasters, how would people feel about big squads of warriors with a blaster and a squad leader with a blast pistol? Would it be viable? It does not have as mutch dakka and range, but it would have mutch more chance of surviwing longer. What do you think?
Drive 6, disembark 6 and then shoot 12 is not sutch a short range. It is 24" compared to the 30" of blasterborns.
Niiai wrote: I have been pondering something: Blaster born vs the blast pistol. Blasters only have an 6" range increase over the blaster pistol. Instead of taking the weak 4 man trueborn squad with blasters, how would people feel about big squads of warriors with a blaster and a squad leader with a blast pistol? Would it be viable? It does not have as mutch dakka and range, but it would have mutch more chance of surviwing longer. What do you think?
Drive 6, disembark 6 and then shoot 12 is not sutch a short range. It is 24" compared to the 30" of blasterborns.
blast pistols have 6" range compared to 18" for blasters. Completely different things.
Blast Pistols are useless, way overpriced at 15 points. Never take them unless you want a fluffy archon with 2 of them who looks cool but is rarely effective.
so with your disembark thing, it is 18" vs 30" which is huge. You are either in autoassault range with the pistol or just at boxcars assault range for them next turn.
ThePhish wrote: What's the general consensus on flickerfields in 6th? I'm torn. I've lost the roll to go first 3 out of the last 4 games I've played and it's cost 2-3 vehicles turn 1 with no save of any kind.
Are you remembering to roll for night fighting before deployment? At least half the time, you should be able to deploy almost without fear or at least +2 save.
ThePhish wrote: What's the general consensus on flickerfields in 6th? I'm torn. I've lost the roll to go first 3 out of the last 4 games I've played and it's cost 2-3 vehicles turn 1 with no save of any kind.
Are you remembering to roll for night fighting before deployment? At least half the time, you should be able to deploy almost without fear or at least +2 save.
Exactly. First you have a 50% to go first (or more with the Baron) and even if you go second, a 50% chance it's Nightfighting anyway. So a flickerfield with regards to first turn is only effective 25% of your games. That's not to say anything about assaults or cover ignoring weaponry.
lord_bobbington wrote: Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(
Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.
I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.
lord_bobbington wrote: Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
I've been thinking of different ways of using heat lance reavers...
lord_bobbington wrote: Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(
Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.
I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.
Yeah - I'd spent the 5-6 months prior to 6th coming out making Webway Portals, and acquiring extra Haemonculi / Wracks / Grotesques / Talos for it.
Then with the proposed Allies rules being confirmed, I got an Autarch, and my next purchase after the 6th Ed rulebook was to be an Eldar Battleforce.
Then the 50% limit + cannot assault out Reserves hits, and it's kneecaps are blown off. :(
lord_bobbington wrote: Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(
Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.
I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.
Yeah - I'd spent the 5-6 months prior to 6th coming out making Webway Portals, and acquiring extra Haemonculi / Wracks / Grotesques / Talos for it.
Then with the proposed Allies rules being confirmed, I got an Autarch, and my next purchase after the 6th Ed rulebook was to be an Eldar Battleforce.
Then the 50% limit + cannot assault out Reserves hits, and it's kneecaps are blown off. :(
Yeah.
My All-coven WWP list went the same way. I still run all-coven lists sometimes, but it's not as cool as it once was.
lord_bobbington wrote: Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.
Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(
Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.
I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.
Yeah - I'd spent the 5-6 months prior to 6th coming out making Webway Portals, and acquiring extra Haemonculi / Wracks / Grotesques / Talos for it.
Then with the proposed Allies rules being confirmed, I got an Autarch, and my next purchase after the 6th Ed rulebook was to be an Eldar Battleforce.
Then the 50% limit + cannot assault out Reserves hits, and it's kneecaps are blown off. :(
Yeah.
My All-coven WWP list went the same way. I still run all-coven lists sometimes, but it's not as cool as it once was.
Want to guess how my wych list turned out after 6th edition was released?
Don't need to guess. I know :( Good against vehicles now, but gakky against most everything else.
I hadn't wanted to go Kabal-heavy, but i kindof have to these days. I can pull off surprising wins with all-coven sometimes, but it was the weakest of the 3 'pure' options in 5th, and is far worse now..
On the plus side, my Wet T-shirt Contest list is still doing very well in 6th.
Haemonculus w/ Liquifier and Shattershard
4x 5 Wracks w/ Liquifier Gun and Raider w/ Flickerfield and Dissie
3x 4 Trueborn w/ Blasters and Venom
3x Ravagers w/ Flickerfields.
Pretty straightforward list. Blasters and Dark Lances handle armor, venoms and liquifier guns handle infantry. Almost always gives away the Kill The Warlord victory point, but usually gets First Blood to make up for it, and is exceptional at clearing units, any units, off of objectives. You haven't lived until you've seen the results of 5 liquifier guns in a single shooting phase. Not to mention the disintegrators do dirty things to whatever isn't in cover. It's no good against lists with multiple fliers, but I'm pondering the idea of dropping the transports for more bodies and more liquifier guns. Plus, I know that list I just posted has plenty of spare points to futz around with, so I'll probably do something about that later. This is, after all, a list left over from 5th.
It's just served me well so far in 6th, I've won four out of the six games it's been used in.
Ascalam wrote: Don't need to guess. I know :( Good against vehicles now, but gakky against most everything else.
I hadn't wanted to go Kabal-heavy, but i kindof have to these days. I can pull off surprising wins with all-coven sometimes, but it was the weakest of the 3 'pure' options in 5th, and is far worse now..
I am proud of the victory against a gunline guard army with my wych cult list in 6th though. My succubus survived 2 direct hits from a manticore.
One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?
The Cranulator wrote: One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?
I've had the odd surprise with my Coven, but in general 6th isn't kind to them.
At least I also have my Orks
I've found the opposite actually, but I play more grotesques than wracks, and FNP for tougher units is much better than it was in 5th. I also put eldrad in my list so I can get the 4++ and give it to both groups and watch people try impotently to destroy them, I put Urien out at the front of one, do some LoS and if if he takes a wound, so what
I used to play a WWP list but with all the changes and the vulnerability of venoms I just go for toughness and walk up the board. Though I am toying with putt a WWP on the Haemonculus in one of my grotesque squads so I can put the talos in there to help with their survivability. Though getting easy cover saves for them is nice.
I do love my scourges, they are beautiful looking models, but often I just wish reavers were coven fluffy.
The Cranulator wrote: One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?
How do they play against razorwings?
I completely obliterated a squad with a Razorwing just two days ago. They become a bit of a threat if they're using a Skyfire Nexus, but otherwise I would agree that this is a good solution. Although, it's one that requires you to weather an indeterminate number of turns of shooting before it gets there.
Other option would be Dissie Ravagers. So long as you maneuver carefully, you should be able to strip away a few squads with relative ease.
I've had the odd surprise with my Coven, but in general 6th isn't kind to them.
At least I also have my Orks
I've found the opposite actually, but I play more grotesques than wracks, and FNP for tougher units is much better than it was in 5th. I also put eldrad in my list so I can get the 4++ and give it to both groups and watch people try impotently to destroy them, I put Urien out at the front of one, do some LoS and if if he takes a wound, so what
I used to play a WWP list but with all the changes and the vulnerability of venoms I just go for toughness and walk up the board. Though I am toying with putt a WWP on the Haemonculus in one of my grotesque squads so I can put the talos in there to help with their survivability. Though getting easy cover saves for them is nice.
I do love my scourges, they are beautiful looking models, but often I just wish reavers were coven fluffy.
Interesting
I'm not a fan of the allies thing, but i might give a variant of that a shot.
I only have 10 grotesques so far. I've not had time to cobble together the other 20.
You could do Reavers piloted by wracks Or convert up some creepy flesh-mech monster analogue to them
I love my scourges. Among the best models GW ever out put out imo. Gitz won't bunch up neatly for deepstrike though..
I'm not a fan of the allies thing, but i might give a variant of that a shot.
I only have 10 grotesques so far. I've not had time to cobble together the other 20.
You could do Reavers piloted by wracks Or convert up some creepy flesh-mech monster analogue to them
I love my scourges. Among the best models GW ever out put out imo. Gitz won't bunch up neatly for deepstrike though..
My friend and I used to joke that about having grotesques on jetbikes.
30 Grotesques would be horrible to face, I would dearly love to have that many *manaical laughter* especially if you then combine that with eldar allies.
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere on dakka or this thread.
What's the general consensus on Scourges? I think they're nice models, and I love deepstriking jump infantry, but otherwise they look like they put out about the same kind of firepower as a warriors squad just with a few more shots and more mobility. How do you all use them?
lizardwolf19 wrote: I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere on dakka or this thread.
What's the general consensus on Scourges? I think they're nice models, and I love deepstriking jump infantry, but otherwise they look like they put out about the same kind of firepower as a warriors squad just with a few more shots and more mobility. How do you all use them?
Well they are one of the rare ways of fielding haywire cannons assuming that they are what you want them to use but in my opinnion splinter cannons would work for deepstriking purposes. Shard carbines and splinter cannons would put out an impressive amount of shots and as they are assault weapons they allow charging in the assault phase though scourges do not belong into melee. I don't personally use them. I bought the box for some of the bits although I did end up putting the squad together but I have never used it.
I like Scourges a lot too, mainly for the models. Its a hard choice on how to arm them, either all splinter weapons, or sort of a Jack of all Trades (with some anti-armor weapons). On one hand taking 10 just with a Solarite and full Splinter cannons gives the unit one job, and they do it well, with flexibility of extra range. But we already have many units that excel at killing infantry. On the other hand, throw some Heat Lances in and they can hurt tanks. Problem is, you can only 'plan' on them doing 2 HP per turn, not too great for the cost. And you're losing out on the carbines from the rest of the squad.
Personally, I take the splinter cannon setup and leave anti-hunting to wyches, reavers and the heavies. For a really competitive list, probably leave them at home, going for warriors/trueborn/beastpacks/venoms is a more efficient means to kill infantry IMO.
Of course, every time I try to leave them out of a list, I look at the models... and put them right back in.
lizardwolf19 wrote: I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere on dakka or this thread.
What's the general consensus on Scourges? I think they're nice models, and I love deepstriking jump infantry, but otherwise they look like they put out about the same kind of firepower as a warriors squad just with a few more shots and more mobility. How do you all use them?
the problem with scorges is that you have to pay for those fancy shardcarbines, ghost plate, and jump packs which make them very expensive. At that point giving them heat lances, blasters or haywire blasters wastes your shardcarbines. Heatlances arent great either, slightly longer range poor mans meltaguns. And by that I mean very poor mans melta guns. Haywireblasters seem good as they strip a hull point on 2+, but they have to hit, and a blaster will strip as hull point on 4+(or better) has twice the chance to pen and on a pen twice the chance to explode. On top of that they can ID T4 AND deny armor saves. Not a good deal.
If you want to run them, run with splinter cannons for anti infantry. You can move and shoot a ton at 18" or stand still and shoot a bunch out to 36". Also note these guys got a lot better against assault with all the shots in overwatch.
Wyches now take out armor very well at short range, perhaps you could give scourges haywires.
CaptainHonkey wrote: My question is now that you get cover saves in addition to normal saves and Jink is a cover save would you get Jink and Flickerfields?
Can a model take a cover save and an invul?
Nope, just 1.
Flickerfields work even when you aren't moving, and are an invulnerable save. They work on Dangerous terrain and in CC also. (but you have to pay for them, except on venoms)
Jink only works only when mobile, and is a cover save (which can be negated by some weapons). It can be improved by anything that improves your cover save, such as stealth and shrouded (iirc). It doesn't work in CC or for Dangerous Terrain.
You only get to take one save, though. Flickerfields are more generally useful, especially on turn one when you go second (no jink, as you haven't moved yet).
CaptainHonkey wrote: My question is now that you get cover saves in addition to normal saves and Jink is a cover save would you get Jink and Flickerfields?
no, you get the 5+ or the 5++. Just like nob bikers and their 4+ or 4+
A Haemonculus can boost them up to a viable shooting threat and make them kinda durable, but they can do the same for a Kabalite squad who was already a more potent shooting threat to begin with.
Mandrakes are bad, full stop. There is no way to make them good that doesn't involve devoting more points, time and energy into them than they are worth.
Reavders got good in sixth. Like, really good. You might not be able to assault out of a wwp, but those bladevanes aren't used.in assault. And readers can be abit shooty, which is never bad. DEjust got changed to a moe shootsy army.
The other 1/2 to 2/3 were assault units that depended on being able to zoom up up in raiders, jump out and then assault
They can still putt-putt over in raiders and assault, but it's not the same thing....
not being able to assault from a WWP also killed the Talos's best tactic, popping out from a wwp and wrecking face. They can still pop out and shoot, but will die the next turn before they can get into CC. They are only 3 wound beasts, with 3+ armour, and can be taken down by bolters, let alone heavy weapons fire.
DE can still be very effective, but the number of units that you can be very effective with, and the tactics you can use to do so, are reduced by 6th edition.
I agree that mandrakes are terrible but if you are going to use them, the best tactic I've found after several hours of searching is to deploy them 12" ahead of a venom or raider with a squad and a Haemy, drop the Haemy 6" and have him join the mandrakes then have everything shoot, maybe have the Haemy drop a WWP or something, if not the. You could infiltrate the mandrakes a little farther and have him run to catch up. Make sure they are in cover.
Yes reavers kick butt, woe to you who faces SoB or Noise Marines
Red Corsair wrote: Has anyone tried mandrake heavy lists? I know it seems like a waste but if you deploy them standard a joined IC could really boost them.
a guy at my club runs 30 of them and decapitator in every list. It is embarrassing. No they are never good.
It just sucks because in the original codex they were amazing for me. I get to march up untouched and pick one of three locations, double tap my pistols if positioned well and assault... 10 used to give me 50 s3 attacks out of thin air, I actually hate the new theme (well not hate simply prefer the old one). Too me they were bad asses when they were basically considered serial murderers by dark eldar standards, that's saying something.
I knew it was a bad question when right after I posted it I remember oh yea, harlequins, literally better in EVERY aspect and fit my original theme ha ha.
not being able to assault from a WWP also killed the Talos's best tactic, popping out from a wwp and wrecking face. They can still pop out and shoot, but will die the next turn before they can get into CC. They are only 3 wound beasts, with 3+ armour, and can be taken down by bolters, let alone heavy weapons fire.
I really don't get this. Not being able to assault out of portals, it hasn't really changed anything.You can't use wyches out of a portal that's about all it's changed and it's not like your opponent kindly waited around the portal to get assaulted by wyches anyway. Reavers can blade vane or shoot, warriors/scourges want to be shooting and wracks are going to be coming on to score. As for talos who in their right mind would have got within 12" of a webway portal that had a talos in it last edition? No one. Taking liquifiers on the talos carries on that tradition, because no sane general would risk leaving his infantry anywhere within 12-14" near of a potential liquifier alpha strike. The only difference is that your opponent might be willing to risk his transports and tanks nearer the portal as the talos can't rip them up on the turn it comes in (but god help you if that talos is still standing next turn). Again having blasters coming out of the portal should dissuade this, if that transport goes the contents will be asking to be tear-drop liquified. You need a mixture of threats coming out the portal to get the most out of it.
The WWP is similar to proper Talos use in this respect, it's about projecting "fear" and using that "fear" to deny part of the board to your opponent. What if his blaster born come out and take out my land raider, what if his talos rolls a 3 on his liquifiers and take out half my assault marines, etc. If your opponent comes near a portal he has to be aware you are playing on home ground and you will get the jump on anything that enters portal territory.
The webway portal still has it's uses. I think the biggest misunderstanding of it comes from thinking that it's used to get units without transports further up field, this is wrong.
If you consider the safest way to deploy a webway portal: a big units of grotesques or harlequins deployed centrally on the board 12" in, then you get 12"+6"+3"+6" = 27" into the board now if you come in on turn 2 that put's you 3" further in than if you just deployed 12" in and moved 6" for two turns, and you can't charge. So the movement advantage is not the main reason for using the webway portal as it is unreliable at best.
What the webway portal does do, is protect units for 1-2 turns and removes the disadvantage of going second, as units coming out of the portal always get their shots in first. In fact going second is how the portal should be played as that way your units can avoid more of his shooting as even if you come in on turn 2 your opponent will miss two turns of shooting!
Uses:
1. Keeping small scoring units safe. Why spend points on larger units of troops when you can use smaller ones that will be just as effective as they will be immune to shooting for the first 1-2 turns.
2. Preventing fragile units from giving up first blood.
3. Increasing the threat range of blaster units coming in from reserve. Your opponent will think twice if anything within 30" of the portal could potentially be threatened by blasters mounted on reavers/scourges.
4. Delay anti infantry units until they are needed. Against a mechanised opponent they might not have anything to shoot at on the first turn, however by the time they come in from the portal a portion of the opponents armies will be demechanised.
5. Board control, the webway portal creates a bubble of potential threats around the centre of the board that will make your opponent think twice before commiting his forces, this is a fantastic edge in an objective based game.
6. Reducing the number of turns your opponent has to take out a threat. Three Talos marching across the board is intimidating. Three talos that may or may not appear in the centre of the board create a massive fear factor due to their liquifiers and splinter cannons. What's worse is they will be coming on at full wounds and potentially snap up a few pain tokens with their splinter/liquifier shooting when they come in (getting FNP). What makes this so much worse is rather than having 6 turns to deal with three talos your opponent now has 3-4 turns (if you are going second even if you come in on turn 2 your opponent will miss two turns of shooting!).
It's these strengths that make the Webway Portal a cheap investment all things considered, it guarantees that units coming on form reserve will be at full strength and appear in a central position on the board, it denies at least two turns of your enemies shooting against the units in reserve (As you want to go second with a WWP army). Finally it guarantees that the units in reserve get their "Alpha Strike".
If you want to play a Dark Eldar army that doesn't depend on going first then the webway portal is a solid option. Just don't do anything fancy and use a solid foot unit to deploy it.
Hope that helps people who still want to use the WWP in 6th.
Yeah, you don't get it You don't GIVE them the option of not being in range of the portal. You drop several of them in his endzone Not really doable these days.
Back in 5th, you could drop a WWP, and be pretty sure that a Talos could move out of it at full move, shoot, then plow into a unit and assault it, without getting shot to death in the process.
No-one is afraid of Taloi these days. They can be boltered down, only have 3 wounds and are ONLY good in CC. You never see them on a table for a reason.
WWP's still have a use, but now you have to be sure to get them into postion turn 1 (with a greatly reduced range to do this due to the new rules for disembarking fast vehicles) before the Talos is forced to walk in from your board edge, and die...
If you can somehow make WWP work, and miraculously not roll your reserves in while you are getting it anywhere useful, more power to you.
If your reserves come in before your WWP is deployed, your WWP is just a box with a button on it.
So i have been thinking about 10 warriors in a raider. One of them has a venom cannon. What i am torn as to what is good to give the rest. A shredder for one person (short range) or give the boat a splinter rack? What do you think?
Splinter rack. The Shredder is very rarely useful. DE need a large volume of hits and the racks help you with that. Sure, it'll be gone when the Raider explodes (which it will) but if the squad inside has the purpose of shooting quick and often, anything that helps them is important.
I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)
Niiai wrote: I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)
That's almost exactly the list I'm planning on except I want to run 3 units of 3 reavers in stead of the beasts and I would run the duke in a raider instead of the baron.
No-one is afraid of Taloi these days. They can be boltered down, only have 3 wounds and are ONLY good in CC. You never see them on a table for a reason.
They got a whole load of buffs, like benefiting from area terrain cover saves, only needing to be 25% obscured to get a cover save, random charge range (greater potential threat), FNP working against AP1-2 weapons, smash attack, impact hits, scoring in 1/6 missions, the list goes on. At the end of the day they are a very cheap and resilient MC who's only downfall is that it competes with ravagers for heavy support slots.
As for being only good in CC I completely disagree with that, the talos is effective even without reaching combat as it draws fire away from the rest of your army. Give it a twin-linked liquifier and a twin linked splinter cannon and it can tear through infantry in the shooting phase, those cannons are perfect for snatching up pain tokens to boot.
WWP's still have a use, but now you have to be sure to get them into postion turn 1 (with a greatly reduced range to do this due to the new rules for disembarking fast vehicles) before the Talos is forced to walk in from your board edge, and die...
If you can somehow make WWP work, and miraculously not roll your reserves in while you are getting it anywhere useful, more power to you.
If your reserves come in before your WWP is deployed, your WWP is just a box with a button on it.
I don't think this version of the webway portal was ever meant to be used to "rush" your opponent, that's what raiders/venoms are for. In my opinion it's about protecting a bunch of units whilst creating board control and guaranteeing they will get their shots in first.
I think people got trapped trying to use the portal the way it was used in the old codex, basically a portal bomb that you charge into your opponents line and beat face out of. Now that's you can't prevent the units from coming in from reserve that tactic isn't reliable.
As for why I'm not a fan of mechanised portal delivery units:
1. You need first turn.
2. You need a fast fragile portal delivery unit, or two (large investment of points).
3. If you go second those delivery units will probably be out of position (as they are fragile and need to be hidden), so their bonus movement is often wasted.
4. It tends to be a lot of points to invest in a fragile unit who's only purpose is to deliver the portal (an then get shot off the board).
A foot units is survivable, won't give up first blood and can almost always be deployed centrally. And lets you plan to go second as you know they can shrug off a lot of fire power. They also tend to double up as a beat face assault unit (grotesques or harlequins) and would have been on foot anyway, so the cost of using the portal is 35pts. Not 170pts for a naked haemi and three wracks mounted in a venom who's only purpose is to set up a portal. Also with central deployment you only need one portal.
Grotesques are ideal being T5 and having FNP, deployed centrally in the open or preferably in some area terrain and they will do a good job (watch out for manticores). Or Harlequins with an archon in cover with veil of tears. Both are fantastic counter assault units that can withstand a lot of shooting.
The point wasn't that you have to deploy them 1st turn, it was that the 1st turn deployment range is dramatically shorter. To get them where i'd want them i'd have to put them down on turn 2, by which time they will have already arrived at the start of the turn. In 5th you could risk your units not coming in on turn 2 (4+ chance) and get the portal exactly where you wanted it if you lucked out, however. You could still try that, but on a 3+ it's not really worth it.
These days you can get them in about 12'' on turn 1 and still be able to deploy them turn 1. 6'' vehicle move, 6'' disembark.
In the old days you could get them in 12 '' (vehicle move, plus 2'' disembark, plus 6'' move = 20''. That's a whole turn's movement for the talos closer and more.
MC's have gained some neat tricks in 6th. I'm not denying that. Smash in particular has made the Cronos a whole lot better. They have lost some stuff too though.
Average charge range hasn't changed much. You do have the potential for a 12'' charge, true, but you also have the potential for a 2'' one.
Either way the Talos is still a fragile as hell MC, with few wounds and decent but not fantastic armour. It's really depressingly easy to take one down. I've had them die to snapshots just from entering combat with bog-ordinary tac marine squads. They can put out some decent anti-infantry firepower, especially when at very very short range, but one volley from a unit of long fangs or whatever and it's adios Talos. Odds are one volley from a tac squad will kill one before it can close enough to do any good.
Venoms and raiders aren't good for rushing the enemy any more either, as you can't disembark if you moved more than 6''. Sure, you can zoom up on one turn, then disembark the next, but they have lost a lot of rush-ability since 5th too.
Grotesques work well from WWP, as they can survive a turn of shooting before they close even with the reduced WWP distance.
I ran a cc-oriented all-coven list that worked well in 5th, but is turgid to play and far more fragile in 6th. FNP working on everything helps, but 5+ when your FNP is backing a 6+ save still results in more deaths on the whole. Taloi and Cronoi can only get FNP by killing a unit first, or from a Cronos. They have to survive long enough to do this, which is where i'm running into issues.
Sure, i can run an all-shooty kabalite list and wreck face with it. It thrills me about as much as a visit to the dentist. I got into the DE for the Coven stuff, and mono-coven is now pretty much futile.
A mixed list still works (harlies are pretty good, and Kabalite with haemy support can be effective) but a proper WWP delivered wrack/haemy/grotesque liquifier/assault list does not.
My views of course, YMMV I can adapt my forces and win, but the army ceases to be what drew me to the army in the first place.
Being able to keep a unit off the chopping block for a turn is useful-ish, assuming you can get the WWP somewhere tactically useful for turn 2, but you could get the same result for most units by giving them a raider and deep-striking it, or having them walk on, and hugging cover on turn 1.
Grotesques/Harlies are about the only assault units i would use with a WWP these days. Shooty stuff through a WWP still works, and i've been playing with scourges delivered that way.
In the old days you could get them in 12 '' (vehicle move, plus 2'' disembark, plus 6'' move = 20''. That's a whole turn's movement for the talos closer and more.
Actually the difference between how far you can deploy the WWP out of a vehicle between this edition and 5th is about 2.5" not 8". Because in the last edition you couldn't move after you disembarked, if the vehicle moved.
5th, vehicle moves 12", you disembark 2", the base of your model only had to be just inside so less than an inch", so 14.5", rather than the 12" we have today. It does make a difference, but not that much. The problem is, even if all that was the same random assault ranges would make that gambit even more unreliable.
I'm actually still running a WWP however with my coven. Running two groups of grotesques, with Urien, Eldrad in group and haemonculi with the portal in another. Eldrad can get the 4++ and the ability to roll 3d6 for reserves, which gives me the durability to march up the field and the time to only place my portal in the second turn, rather than the first. However, without Eldrad I wouldn't run a WWP, because then I'd have to place it first turn, and I've gained only one turn's worth of my more fragile units not being shot
I still run a full on coven list at home, once in a while, but i dont take my DE out nearly as much as i used to. My Orks get to go to tournaments etc, while i get my DE painted up and try to come up with a competitive list that actually interests me.
I'm not a fan of Allies, as a whole, either. I know i could ally up for more oomph, but it doesn't really fit for me. Lately i've been running a scourge-heavy wrack-intensive variant on my DE which i might expand to include a very few non-coven units, like the fliers (wrack pilots!) or Reavers (wrack converted riders )
So yes, i am handicapping myself for the sake of theme. I might have to take a look at building a non-pure coven army that wins games, and hope that this endears it to me, or my DE might become a painting/home game project for a few years.
I was poking through dakka the other day and came across Dark_Gear's blog (here, mid-page) and he had some interesting ideas on using the cronos for a force multiplier. I think it would go along well with what Mush was saying with the Talos and might be useable with a wwp. What do you guys think? It still has to earn it's pain tokens though, so Ascalam's point about them lasting long enough to actually be useful is a good one. Getting MC's a cover save is much easier though.
I've actually had decent luck with the Cronos lately. They tend to die if directly stomped on, but unlike the Cronos they are viewed as being trash units by a lot of opponents, which means they get ignored right up until they vape a unit and hand out Pain like candy. THEN they die, but they will have at least served a purpose.
Ascalam wrote: I've actually had decent luck with the Cronos lately. They tend to die if directly stomped on, but unlike the Cronos they are viewed as being trash units by a lot of opponents, which means they get ignored right up until they vape a unit and hand out Pain like candy. THEN they die, but they will have at least served a purpose.
Plus i love the models
"Sir. That monstrosity looks dangerous."
"Ignore the flying piece of meat for now, soldier. It is not a threat at all."
"Yes Sir."
*the cronos proceeds to rape, humiliate and completely obliterate an important squad* "PaaaIIin for ThE aRmYYyy..." *and throws around pain all over the dark eldar lines making everyone else more dangerous.*
"Um, Sir? It took out our veterans and the enemy got more ferocious."
"By the emperor. ALL GUNS, TAKE DOWN THE HOVERING MEATLOAF!"
What's even more hilarious is that the opponent's army will then get their minds wiped after the battle, because the same guys will forget the Cronos's doing that, or write it off as a fluke,
Its like the times my Flash Gitz just obliterate a full termie squad, but everyone KNOWS flash gitz are a junk squad no-one ever takes except in a themed list...
Just like the guy who just "forgot" how 2 bloodbrides, 4 wyches and a succubus obliterated his IG gunline in 6th ed. (that was all that was left when I got into close combat) It's the "it only happens once in a lifetime" attitude... which I exploit more often than anyone should.
I've had similar moments on occasion. I once had 2 wracks hold up a Triarch Stalker for a whole game in CC. It stomped on them, they made their save or FNP roll... Next turn...
Ascalam wrote: I've actually had decent luck with the Cronos lately. They tend to die if directly stomped on, but unlike the Cronos they are viewed as being trash units by a lot of opponents, which means they get ignored right up until they vape a unit and hand out Pain like candy. THEN they die, but they will have at least served a purpose.
Plus i love the models
I love using grotesques in that capacity. No one knows what they do really, just think that they are bad. If they ask I tell them they are AP- in combat, even the champion and they ease off till they wreck face.
Yeah, until you hit combat and go 'right, so that's 4 Str6 attacks for each grunt... then another 6 Str6 Poison 2+ attacks on the Ab, they don't seem to think they're that huge a threat.
Ovion wrote: Yeah, until you hit combat and go 'right, so that's 4 Str6 attacks for each grunt... then another 6 Str6 Poison 2+ attacks on the Ab, they don't seem to think they're that huge a threat.
lol, and with FC Ive multi assaulted two rhinos and a combat squad and exploded/wrecked the rhinos and beat the squad up and was safely locked in his turn
Hey guys. I'm looking into starting a DE army soon and I was wondering what would be some of the better buys.
I'm probably going to get 2 battleforces, then 2 venoms, a flyer (dont know which one yet), an Autarch, and then some flavor units. Probably a unit of Scourges and then some wracks or incubi for fun. Any suggestions on where to go? I've read through the codex and a gun boat hit and run style army sounds fun, as well as an assaulty army using lots of transports.
Autarch is regular Eldar, so you'd need an Archon unless you are planning on allies. HQ boss guy
There is only one flyer kit, the Razorwing. Most folk will be fine with you using it as either a Razorwing or a Voidraven.
Scourges are awesome models, and not bad in game if you se them right.
Incubi are spendy, and in game are a bit fragile. They can kick some butt though
Wracks are neat, but i don't like the GW models. I made my own
The fast assaulty army that half the codex was designed for got a stiff kick in the shorts. You can still do it. but it's not as good as it might be. Gunboat hit and run still works.
Autarch Archon, Tomato Tomato lol. I picked up 1 battleforce, a box of scourges, a venom, and an Archon. Should make for a good fast/gun boat style army beginnings.
The fast assaulty army that half the codex was designed for got a stiff kick in the shorts. You can still do it. but it's not as good as it might be. Gunboat hit and run still works.
I dont feel this is 100% true. I play exactly that sort of assaulty army, even though its out of vogue. I can see having played fairly assaulty that it's far from ineffective, though I will; conce3de that shooting is a necessary companionto the assaults. It would take only one mod to the list to afford the webwy portals if it seemed necessary (which it really hasn't seemed, to date, though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to doing it against IG). Here's a link to one of my battle reports against a Blood angel opponent, with pics.: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2012/07/blood-angels-vs-dark-eldar-battle-report.html
The list I CURRENTLY use is here though and has evolved from that. here is the list I use now:
Talos Pain Engine (TL Liquefier, TL HeatLance)
VoidRaven Bomber (2 x necrotoxin, 1 x Shatterfield, I like the AP and pinning of the Necrotoxin. Fits the terror theme better but the AP is the big thing. I have a Voidbomb so I dont NEED the 4th missile really, even though it would be nice.
4 units 5 Wracks (Liquefier, Acothyst with Hexrifle)
2 Raiders (Shock Prow, Torment Launchers, Flickerfield to be able to rush the enemy with lesser units and force them to look at things besides my bigger monsters. Currently, enemies key in on the mean nasty big units (and for good reason). Need to force the issue.
1 Raider (Shock Prow, Torment Launchers)
2 Venoms (Extra Splinter Cannons)
5 Truborn (4 Blasters, 1 Splinter Cannon since the unit seems to move SO often, no sense in the Dark Lance I usually take)
6 Grotesques (Liquefier, Aberration with Scissorhands for maximum STR 7 carnage, Master Homonculae upgrade).
Urien Rakarth
3 Reaver Jetbikes (Blaster to help the rushing Raiders out by saturating the enemy backfield and killing tanks.)
3 Reaver Jetbikes (Blaster, same as the other one)
Red Corsair wrote: Has anyone tried mandrake heavy lists? I know it seems like a waste but if you deploy them standard a joined IC could really boost them.
a guy at my club runs 30 of them and decapitator in every list. It is embarrassing. No they are never good.
My first list had a lot of Mandrakes, about 24. Good times.
Niiai wrote: I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)
solid list there
warriors i find tend to do well with a blaster as the second weapon- always handy if you need a quick shot at a vehicle
and never get that cocky about people shooting the warriors first being daft- you shouldn't put them in that postion in the first place
you will find that venoms (twin SCs for extra ) cause a lot of problems i like to abuse the fact you can shoot the transported squad at a different target, my 5 man warrior squads with blasters have caused much havock.
Niiai wrote: I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)
solid list there
warriors i find tend to do well with a blaster as the second weapon- always handy if you need a quick shot at a vehicle
and never get that cocky about people shooting the warriors first being daft- you shouldn't put them in that postion in the first place
you will find that venoms (twin SCs for extra ) cause a lot of problems i like to abuse the fact you can shoot the transported squad at a different target, my 5 man warrior squads with blasters have caused much havock.
Happy hunting
Venoms with twin SC:s are very killy and very good at backing up wyches before they charge in. I still run almost the same list I did in 5th ed. When the current DE line came out I just fell in love with the models. I built my army pretty much completely around the models I like and they did well. I run several 5 strong wych squads in venoms (twin-SC.s naturally), reavers, beastmasters, razorwings jetfighters and a Succubus accompanied by bloodbrides in a venom. I do not play competitively by the way. The list did fine in 5th but now in 6th it kinda struggles and I changed the list that there is at least one warrior squad in a venom with a blaster but to keep them with the theme I put warrior arms on wyches. Those warriors made the list more survivable. I love the list. It has been fun to play with even though it loses a lot.
Anyone had any good use of Scourges? They seem like a solid choice for popping tanks with blasters and haywire grenades. I've pretty much got a squad of 5 in mind for popping a Leman Russ turn 2.
Wingeds wrote: Anyone had any good use of Scourges? They seem like a solid choice for popping tanks with blasters and haywire grenades. I've pretty much got a squad of 5 in mind for popping a Leman Russ turn 2.
I use them because they're gorgeous models and fit in with the theme of my army. There is nothing wrong with them, they are a solid choice but reavers just do it better in the same way. I wish that jump infantry could use skyfire or something just to make them fulfill a slightly different role to jetbikes
Wingeds wrote: Anyone had any good use of Scourges? They seem like a solid choice for popping tanks with blasters and haywire grenades. I've pretty much got a squad of 5 in mind for popping a Leman Russ turn 2.
They can't take haywire grenades, if they could that would be awesome. Maybe you meant haywire blasters, when I use scourges I run them as a five man squad with two haywire blasters. They do tend to die quick though.
Yea, Haywire Blasters is what I meant, early morning sleepiness hadn't worn off yet. I've got 6 reavers I could use as well. I'll just have to try them out seperately.
I own two boxes of scourges but I haven't really used them nor assembled them. They seemed incredigood in 5E and in 6E they lost SOME lustre, but are still the most reliable anti-tank weapons in the game when taken in 4's.
I juist find the Dark Eldar codex to be SO capable of SO many builds that can work, that it's hard to do everything thats doable. I really do hand it to the author of that codex. It is a fun fun thing to play with. I've done Mandrake armies for the win, done, Monsters, done the Flotilla of doom, and I've seen the Wyche cult lists do well. It's not that the armies are blowing people utterly away (though of course they are capable of it given a few lucky rolls) but its just that they can compete in a lot of different forms.
anyways, good times.
Finally got round to another game, this time with a more traditional shooty kabalite dark eldar list against space wolves, the report is below if anyone is interested (pictures as usual):
I'm all about night shields and splinter racks. I usually take FF's too.
I isolate my targets and strafe them until they're no more with massed splinter weapon fire, keeping at the 24" range, as doing so means boltguns are just out of range. My FF protects against the expected ML.
I want to try out wyches with PGL in a raider with GT's and other morale affecting upgrades. I love the idea of them jumping out of the gun boat, slashing the crap out of everything, who then pass their Ld test, only for me to remind them about the modifier, they break, and get cut down in the ensuing chase
Wyches do nothing for me. I dont own a single one and have not really seen anything on the receiving end to make me want them in the force. I love Wracks though. doughty and hard to kill, great weapon options, releatively inexpensive and it allows me to focus more into other army areas.
Lots of people like Wyches though. There are definitely some units that never want to see a wyche as long as they live. Those tend to be squishier stuff though. In a glaaxy FILLEd with mean marines...
One nice thing about Wyches though is they do form a decent tarpit. tough to dislodge from them once they got you and that can be tactically important for other units. So as a component of a greater whole I can see using them. As an army motif, they aren't as cool to me even though i would be far from saying they are bad units. They really are not.
First i'd like to thank you all for this thread, gave me very usefull info for my DE in 6th.
Also special thanks to Mushkilla for the battlereps. I love them and its nice to see how some things workou, they contain a lot of usefull info.
It makes me wanna try a warrior blob, already made a list. Also love the reavers, tried them a couple times now. They are difficult to play them to the max use and not get them killed. The failed Ld costs me too.
Reading this thread I saw several times people mention new rules about poisoned weapons.
I dont see them, whats new about poison in 6th? Still able to reroll to wound if S equals or is greater than T of opponent. And wound on specific number.
I also read something about 2 saves? 1 for armour and then another for cover if you failed. This.is not right, you only are able to make 1 save, see brb p. 19.
I'm also thinking about this 1,5k. list. Because most missions have obj. And with VP, you wont have a lot to give away.
HQ Urien
3 Heamonculi, w/ liquifier and venomblade
Elites
2x 4 grotesques w/ liquifier and ab w/ venomblade
(1 unit and 2 heami in raider w/ diss, sails)
Troops
3x 5 Wracks w/ liquifier
(2 units in venom w/2nd SC)
Heavy
2 ravagers, NS 1 Razorwing, FF
Grots in raider can move flat out t1, deploy out of los, other unit defends center /own obj or go for the relic.
Venoms may harras the enemy inf. And get wracks to extra obj. Foot wracks go behind grots, to claim or get relic.
Could this work?
I'm willing to try
The Cranulator wrote: One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?
A squad of grotesques with a haemi will usually work as bullet sponges and magnets, buying very valuable time for you to be shooty with target saturation.
Anyone tried deep striking with Duke Sliscus? Does it work?
I run two raiders with kabolite warriors in them, one has the Duke in the other has a hex rifle heamy. Both have night shields and splinter racks.
I also run 2 squads of 5 haywire wyches in venoms.
And a ravager (2nd one to be added soon).
First i'd like to thank you all for this thread, gave me very usefull info for my DE in 6th. Also special thanks to Mushkilla for the battlereps. I love them and its nice to see how some things workou, they contain a lot of usefull info. It makes me wanna try a warrior blob, already made a list. Also love the reavers, tried them a couple times now. They are difficult to play them to the max use and not get them killed. The failed Ld costs me too. Reading this thread I saw several times people mention new rules about poisoned weapons. I dont see them, whats new about poison in 6th? Still able to reroll to wound if S equals or is greater than T of opponent. And wound on specific number. I also read something about 2 saves? 1 for armour and then another for cover if you failed. This.is not right, you only are able to make 1 save, see brb p. 19.
I'm also thinking about this 1,5k. list. Because most missions have obj. And with VP, you wont have a lot to give away.
HQ Urien 3 Heamonculi, w/ liquifier and venomblade
Elites 2x 4 grotesques w/ liquifier and ab w/ venomblade (1 unit and 2 heami in raider w/ diss, sails)
Troops 3x 5 Wracks w/ liquifier (2 units in venom w/2nd SC)
Heavy 2 ravagers, NS 1 Razorwing, FF
Grots in raider can move flat out t1, deploy out of los, other unit defends center /own obj or go for the relic. Venoms may harras the enemy inf. And get wracks to extra obj. Foot wracks go behind grots, to claim or get relic. Could this work? I'm willing to try
I would drop Urien. He's not really anymore resilient than a regular Haem, he's not really anymore killy, and for the cost you can flesh out the rest of the army. Reducing it by Urien, then 1 standard Haem gives you a lot of wiggle room, enough for an extra transport and some more toys at least. Even if you're putting 2 Haemonculi to each of the Grotesques, replacing Urien with a standard Haem will give it the same result, be killier and have points left over for another transport.
My 'standard' coven list is: HQ 2x Haem 2/ Venom Blade, Liquifier Gun ELITES 2x3 Grots w/ Liquifier Gun, Aberration w/ Venom Blade in Raider w/ Flickerfield, Dis. Cannon. TROOPS 2x10 Wrack w/ 2 Liquifier Guns, Acothyst w/ Venom Blade in Raider w/ Flickerfield, Dis. Cannon. 2x3 Wrack w/ Acothyst w/ Hex Rifle in Venom w/ Add. Splinter Cannon. HEAVY SUPPORT 2x Talos w/ TL Liquifier Gun, TL Haywire Blaster Razorwing w/ Lances, TL Splinter Rifle, Flickerfields, Night Shields.
The Talos are the same cost as the Ravagers w/ Flickerfields, so in the price of Urien, 1 Haem and 2 Grotesques, I have an extra 2 vehicles, an extra upgrade on the razorwing 8 Wracks, same number of liquifiers and 2 hex rifles.
Shredder wrote: Anyone tried deep striking with Duke Sliscus? Does it work?
I run two raiders with kabolite warriors in them, one has the Duke in the other has a hex rifle heamy. Both have night shields and splinter racks.
I also run 2 squads of 5 haywire wyches in venoms.
And a ravager (2nd one to be added soon).
Yes it does, there's no need for the wyches though because they WILL die on the next turn and they can't assault the turn they deep striked
I would drop Urien.
He's not really anymore resilient than a regular Haem, he's not really anymore killy, and for the cost you can flesh out the rest of the army.
Reducing it by Urien, then 1 standard Haem gives you a lot of wiggle room, enough for an extra transport and some more toys at least.
Even if you're putting 2 Haemonculi to each of the Grotesques, replacing Urien with a standard Haem will give it the same result, be killier and have points left over for another transport.
Well I would agree to drop Urien in that list too, but only because he's not lending much to the army really, he's not taking advantage of the extra strength that Urien gives. The extra pain tokens though are useful so your guys don't run off the field
But certainly not because Urien isn't resilient, he is one of the toughest guys to kill ever. That extra toughness, the better FNP, regen and clonefield makes him fantastic. I put him at the front of the army and laugh maniacally.
As for killiness I would have to disagree again, he's just as killy as any haemonculus, partly because he can survive to actually kill things and is good for instant killing other characters in combat because of extra attacks, initiative and WS. The only thing about Urien I don't like is the casket of flensing, which is just a useless item.
You could make a haemonculi or elder haemonculi more killy by adding a huskblade, but if you're going that route you might aswell do an archon instead. If elder haemonculi were T5 instead of 4 I would take them, but otherwise it leaves them still very vulnerable in combat
I would drop Urien.
He's not really anymore resilient than a regular Haem, he's not really anymore killy, and for the cost you can flesh out the rest of the army.
Reducing it by Urien, then 1 standard Haem gives you a lot of wiggle room, enough for an extra transport and some more toys at least.
Even if you're putting 2 Haemonculi to each of the Grotesques, replacing Urien with a standard Haem will give it the same result, be killier and have points left over for another transport.
Well I would agree to drop Urien in that list too, but only because he's not lending much to the army really, he's not taking advantage of the extra strength that Urien gives. The extra pain tokens though are useful so your guys don't run off the field
But certainly not because Urien isn't resilient, he is one of the toughest guys to kill ever. That extra toughness, the better FNP, regen and clonefield makes him fantastic. I put him at the front of the army and laugh maniacally.
As for killiness I would have to disagree again, he's just as killy as any haemonculus, partly because he can survive to actually kill things and is good for instant killing other characters in combat because of extra attacks, initiative and WS. The only thing about Urien I don't like is the casket of flensing, which is just a useless item.
You could make a haemonculi or elder haemonculi more killy by adding a huskblade, but if you're going that route you might aswell do an archon instead. If elder haemonculi were T5 instead of 4 I would take them, but otherwise it leaves them still very vulnerable in combat
It's not as killy, because he's as killy (maybe a little killier) on his own as any individual, but you get 2-3 others for the cost. (or a tank.)
I would drop Urien.
He's not really anymore resilient than a regular Haem, he's not really anymore killy, and for the cost you can flesh out the rest of the army.
Reducing it by Urien, then 1 standard Haem gives you a lot of wiggle room, enough for an extra transport and some more toys at least.
Even if you're putting 2 Haemonculi to each of the Grotesques, replacing Urien with a standard Haem will give it the same result, be killier and have points left over for another transport.
Well I would agree to drop Urien in that list too, but only because he's not lending much to the army really, he's not taking advantage of the extra strength that Urien gives. The extra pain tokens though are useful so your guys don't run off the field
But certainly not because Urien isn't resilient, he is one of the toughest guys to kill ever. That extra toughness, the better FNP, regen and clonefield makes him fantastic. I put him at the front of the army and laugh maniacally.
As for killiness I would have to disagree again, he's just as killy as any haemonculus, partly because he can survive to actually kill things and is good for instant killing other characters in combat because of extra attacks, initiative and WS. The only thing about Urien I don't like is the casket of flensing, which is just a useless item.
You could make a haemonculi or elder haemonculi more killy by adding a huskblade, but if you're going that route you might aswell do an archon instead. If elder haemonculi were T5 instead of 4 I would take them, but otherwise it leaves them still very vulnerable in combat
It's not as killy, because he's as killy (maybe a little killier) on his own as any individual, but you get 2-3 others for the cost. (or a tank.)
My point was, he is a better killer because he can kill more, but also because he can survive to kill more. Haemonculi are really not that survivable, they're not going to survive challenges (or they'll either be sent to the back of the line and still not earn their points), they can't be used to distribute wounds because one missile, lascannon, meltaguns to the face will kill them with little to no defense, they can be wounded easier and only have 2 wounds to fall back on.
Haemonculi have their place, they're good, they can get liquifiers which are awesome, but Urien is easily worth his points and can kill his share.
You can buy a DE vehicle, which are super survivable these days
Reading this thread I saw several times people mention new rules about poisoned weapons.
The change is that they can now wound on values less then their "fixed value". For example wracks with furious charge against guardsmen, they would wound on a 3+ and be able to re-roll to wound (rather than wounding on a 4+ and re-rolling to wound last edition).
I feel it's a bit low on troops, having run a lot of lists with 2-3 troop choices in 6th I don't think it's adequate enough, especially such small squads.
For dedicated AI duty in sub 1000 point games would a 5 man squad of dual splinter cannon Scourges be preferable to a 5 man cluster caltrops Reaver squad? I like the increased toughness of the reavers and their 3+ cover, but it seems the Scourges are more reliable tactically in that they put out at least 8-12 shots a turn and can jump in after an enemy advance to erase a unit.
Also, does the respective usefulness of Scourges and Reaves change as points increase above 1000? Is there a point where having 9 Reavers nets you a sizable tactical advantage over 10 Scourges (be they on Haywire AT duty or Splinter cannon AI duty)?
Shredder wrote: Anyone tried deep striking with Duke Sliscus? Does it work?
I run two raiders with kabolite warriors in them, one has the Duke in the other has a hex rifle heamy. Both have night shields and splinter racks.
I also run 2 squads of 5 haywire wyches in venoms.
And a ravager (2nd one to be added soon).
Yes it does, there's no need for the wyches though because they WILL die on the next turn and they can't assault the turn they deep striked
I dont care if my 5 HWG wyches die after wrecking a tank. sacrificing 60 pts of wyches to take out a 150-250 pts tank is worth it to me. I usually have enough troops left to capture objectives anyway
Thanks for the report Mushkilla. I was planing on jumping into the DE bandwagon again after a long period withouth playing mutch and painting. This was inspiering.
I was supriced by how fast the ravenwing army gets to the other side, The darkshroud really helps at it buys him a lott of time. Do you shoot the darkshroud or the bikes? You do not have the time to do both in.
Next whennday I am up against IG. Never played them as DE before. I think they are suposebly my worst oponent.
Mushkilla wrote: Finally got round to another game, this time with a more traditional shooty kabalite dark eldar list against space wolves, the report is below if anyone is interested (pictures as usual):
It got me thinking how do people run their gunboats and why?
good report
you did the correct thing since you were going second
when i run by gunboats is essential to take 2 venoms (i did put in a 3rd in another list but i'll see about that...) as a very efficient distraction, and a right royal pain in the arse
in my experience its essential to have a blistering response to any potential long range threats, so those long fangs would get mercelessly spammed by splinter shots, or if i feel really mean my raider with my trueborn would stop by for a little chat about firepower suppress these and then you have an advantage. And when using mine i always err on the side of not getting out until it suits me to do so (though this never happens most of the time, unless they get blown up), people don't really like it when you slowly glide across the table shooting the crap out of them.
As always opponents have to learn the hard way to take out those venoms before they start killing things in short order! some don't seem to get that big mistake
Niiai wrote: I was supriced by how fast the ravenwing army gets to the other side, The darkshroud really helps at it buys him a lott of time. Do you shoot the darkshroud or the bikes? You do not have the time to do both in.
I ignored the darkshrouds completely. Cover saves are great but splinter fire doesn't care about cover, as the bikers armour value is better, and wounding on 4+ means they just get slaughtered. I focus my dark lance fire on the regular landspeeders as they seemed more of a threat.
Niiai wrote: Next whennday I am up against IG. Never played them as DE before. I think they are suposebly my worst oponent.
It's a tough matchup if you run into amour 12 spam, otherwise it's not too bad.
when i run by gunboats is essential to take 2 venoms (i did put in a 3rd in another list but i'll see about that...) as a very efficient distraction, and a right royal pain in the arse
in my experience its essential to have a blistering response to any potential long range threats, so those long fangs would get mercelessly spammed by splinter shots, or if i feel really mean my raider with my trueborn would stop by for a little chat about firepower suppress these and then you have an advantage.
Venoms are amazing with their range and ability to slaughter stuff. I'm a bit oldschool in that I just prefer raiders, even though venoms are probably the superior choice.
I have 850pts to spend and a fairly limited range of models.
I have wyches, warriors, incubi, raiders, scourges, a ravager, drazhar, archon, and reavers~
I was thinking of taking Lady Malys and putting her in a squad of wyches in a raider, kitted out with haywire, and then a full squad of 10 warriors in another raider, then bringing the ravager for MEQ-killing and a bunch of scourges with blasters for tankbusting.
Ideally I don't want to go out and spend a bunch on expensive models - not in the short term anyway. For the moment just looking to build something good using what I have.
For 850pts, I wouldn't be running a Special Character due to the cost - even Malys' 130pts is roughly 15% of the army, especially being you want to put her with a suicide squad of Haywire Wyches...
I would put Haywire Wyches in squads of 5, in Venoms (cheap with a Flickerfield by default.)
With what you've listed... Budget Archon with a PGL and Venom Blade for the HQ, to go with the Incubi in a Raider would probably be best.
Though getting a Haemonculi for a cheapo, cheapo HQ (65pts for any reasonable loadout. . Be it Haem + Venom Blade + Liquifier Gun or Haem + Hex Rifle)
But ultimately - at 850pts, that means you can fit in quite a bit of stuff with DE - Fairly sure I could fit 8 vehicles in there.
Problem is doing it with the existing bunch of models I have - unfortunately I dont have any venoms and they're a bit cost prohibitive to pick up in the short term =/
Oh I understand completely, and Raiders work fine, just a teency bit more expensive.
But definately, start with the Ravagers and Raiders fill the raiders with a cheap HQ and your troops, then take the Scourges with Haywire Blasters, then possibly the bikes with Cluster Caltrops if there's points to spare.
Haywire Blasters will be better for tank hunting, as they have an effective range of 36", are almost garunteed to glance if they hit (with a slight chance of 2 glances on AV10) and a 1/6 chance of a pen regardless of armour. All for 10pts cheaper than the 18-30" range of the Str8 AP2 blasters.
Furthermore, I'd take Dissie cannons on the Raiders for hunting terminators and light vehicles.
I kinda wanted to take Sliscus and stick him with the warriors in the raider, but the 10 model limit would have prevented me taking a splinter cannon, so I really wanted to keep that - it seemed easier to bring 9 wyches and a HQ in that squad just for the sake of efficiency.
Good news is, i have a line on some cheap Venoms
Bad news is, I wont have them in time for the tourney. So need to build around my 3x raiders and 1x ravager for the moment.
850pts is pretty awkward :(
It either feels like I'm one unit short of where i need to be, or when i push for that extra one, then everyone seems a bit weak.
My latest attempt has:
an Archon with a power weapon, with 4 incubi, which will sit near an objective
2 squads of 5 wyches with haywire, in raiders
1 squad of 10 warriors with a splinter cannon, in a raider with a splinter rack
1 squad of 5 scourges with 2 haywire blasters
1 ravager with dark lances
Will see what I can put together from my collection (its not very big unfortunately).
Don't really have time or money to get new models before the tournament starts - although I might get lucky and have some venoms arrive in the mail on friday.
Let you know what list I take and how it did, monday, after the tourney is over
I had my game against DA Raven wing yesterday. My list was:
Duke
Haemy with hex rifle, crucible of malediction
9 Warriors in Raider, DL, Night shield (With Duke)
9 Warriors in Raider, DL, Night Shield (With Heamy)
5 Haywire Wyches in Venom extra splinter cannon
5 Haywire Wyches in Venom extra splinter cannon
4 Blaster Trueborn in Venom extra splinter cannon
4 Blaster Trueborn in Venom extra splinter cannon
6 Reavers, 2 blasters, cluster caltrops (2 units of 3)
Ravager, Nightsheilds
Cronos
Razorwing
His list was something like
Sammael
2 units of 6 bikes with attack bikes
2 landerspeeder typhoon
Ravenwing command squad I think one of them was a librarian
2 darkshroud landspeeders
Landspeeder vengeance (?)
One of the flyer things
There may have been more bikes, I can't quite remember, and I'm not familiar with the codex.
The game was very enjoyable, we played the relic, and by the end of turn 5 when the game ended, I was left with 4 reavers, everything else had been destroyed!
He had the command squad (this unit proved almost indestructible), the flyer, Sammael and about 4 or 5 bikes left.
He shot my last squad off the relic and grabbed it on the last turn, giving him the victory.
It was a close game, but the amount of 2+ cover saves, 3+ armour saves and 4+ invulnerable saves he could take really made his army hard to kill and they soaked up a huge amount of fire power.
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Yeah, Our offensive has gotten better, But what good does it do us if we cant last one turn:( Fnp has gotten slightly better, not enough to make a difference. I may have to use drazhar, his 2+ save will be awesome now
Play a Haemy with your troops. They start with a pain token and that helps.
I am running baron with beats, venom haywire wytches, warrior raider, trueborn blasters with venom and ravagers. Sometimes a razorwing. I also have some other models.
What would be the best anti air gun? Would that be a an aegis defence line or the tower/building? I imagine that I could hide behind the building and it is also harder to block line of sight to.
Razorwings are decent enough at AA, Voidravens are better.
The AA Gun from the defences is always going to be the Quad Gun or Lascannon, but which to take will ultimately depend on you, your army and your local opponents.
If there's a lot of Anti-Tank that can deal with AV14, a building is probably a bad plan, as it'll be blown up in short order
OR you have a lot of stationary foot infantry or vehicles with long range firepower.
In this case the Aegis Defence Line would be best as it'll give a bonus to things cover saves.
If there's not much reliable Anti-AV14 floating about, you have very little stationary infantry or vehicles and/or want something to hide behind in deployment, and/or want a decent fire point with great LOS, then the Bastion is going to be a better bet.
An honourable mention to Fortress of Redemption, which though expensive, gives great line of sight, a great hiding place for deployment, has 2 powerful guns and spots for 4 units. (Plus can give extra firepower with 4 Heavy Bolters - less impressive for some, fantastic for Sisters of Battle. )
But I doubt it would be particularly useful here.
That said, very little of your list seems like it would benefit from the Aegis much - the Ravagers maybe?
But whacking a small squad of Trueborn with 2 lances on top of Bastion wouldn't be a bad plan.
I am running baron with beats, venom haywire wytches, warrior raider, trueborn blasters with venom and ravagers. Sometimes a razorwing. I also have some other models.
What would be the best anti air gun? Would that be a an aegis defence line or the tower/building? I imagine that I could hide behind the building and it is also harder to block line of sight to.
I think it has been mentioned a couple of times, but the best way to counter air is to avoid it altogether, by moving out of their maneuverable range. Failing that, you could look at:
* One or two Voidraven Bombers (model rumoured to be out soon);
* An aegis defense line with a quad-gun manned by a small naked warrior squad or trueborn with dark lances;
* An aegis defense line with an icarus lascannon manned by an allied farseer with rangers or fire dragons with crack shot/tank hunter exarch.
I am currently trying to wrap my barin around the IG flyers who seem bad. I bet necrons as well would be quite bad. Finaly I read the rules on the inteseptor corectly and it seemed quite good.
It would seem like a funn idea with allies. I can not currently see DE as having mutch use with the quad gun.
A bastion does not seem so bad for the points. If you are up against DE you need a lott of medium fierpower vs thev transports. A AV 14 could ruin somebodies day.
PS: Regarding the razorwing, sice it is mostly anti infantery, would it not be better to give it the heavy 3 cannon instead of the dark lances? I mean, it goes good with the rockets and the venom cannon. That would be an unholy amount of shots. Perhaps it cuuld cut down on the venom spam as well. Eldar allies seems interesting although I am gonne stick to DE for now until they are painted.
Edit: PSS: How about a bastion with a dark reaper echark? Would he get +1 shot and/or ignore cover with the icarus lascannon? That would be mean. Or maguan ra doing it, haha. Somebody mentioned in another thread that they used fuegan on the bastion and he would not jump down due to fearles once the bastion went kablomi. The same would be for magian ra.
Maguan ra, some cheap scoring rangers (lets face it, warriors die to an exploding raider) and some war walkers would be nice. Fire dragon optional? (I do not feel DE need melta? Haywire/blaster born are cheaper arent they?)
Niiai wrote: I am currently trying to wrap my barin around the IG flyers who seem bad. I bet necrons as well would be quite bad. Finaly I read the rules on the inteseptor corectly and it seemed quite good.
It would seem like a funn idea with allies. I can not currently see DE as having mutch use with the quad gun.
A bastion does not seem so bad for the points. If you are up against DE you need a lott of medium fierpower vs thev transports. A AV 14 could ruin somebodies day.
PS: Regarding the razorwing, sice it is mostly anti infantery, would it not be better to give it the heavy 3 cannon instead of the dark lances? I mean, it goes good with the rockets and the venom cannon. That would be an unholy amount of shots. Perhaps it cuuld cut down on the venom spam as well. Eldar allies seems interesting although I am gonne stick to DE for now until they are painted.
Edit: PSS: How about a bastion with a dark reaper echark? Would he get +1 shot and/or ignore cover with the icarus lascannon? That would be mean. Or maguan ra doing it, haha. Somebody mentioned in another thread that they used fuegan on the bastion and he would not jump down due to fearles once the bastion went kablomi. The same would be for magian ra.
Maguan ra, some cheap scoring rangers (lets face it, warriors die to an exploding raider) and some war walkers would be nice. Fire dragon optional? (I do not feel DE need melta? Haywire/blaster born are cheaper arent they?)
Maugan Ra is 190+ points and in an allied list you then lose the insanely useful Farseer. The Dark Reaper Exarch will set you back about 135 points for three models and makes you lose the heavy support slot, in which you'd rather have Warwalkers with Scatter Lasers/Shuriken Cannons or a Night Spinner. The Fire Dragon squad only sets you back slightly more than 110 points for five models with a fully upgraded Exarch with Tank Hunters and Crack Shot. And unless you want a Harliestar (as well), that Elite slot is not that awesome. Fast shot is awesome though, especially with the Icarus Lascannon.
Niiai wrote: Soooo...some fire dragons of top of a building with a quad gun = 4 shots with re-roll at BS 5 with S8? Seems good vs flyers.
Or is the lascannon better? S10 vs flyers. How often do snake eyes happen? One in every 36 shooting phases?
Depends on the flyer. Versus AV10-11 flyers you're better off with the quad-gun (which is only S7 and doesn't get +1 on the damage chart due to AP4, but does get rerolls on both to hit and armour penetration with the Exarch). Versus AV12 flyers I'd go for the Lascannon.
Oh, and although the gun is on top of the building, you actually have to be inside the bastion to fire it. Myself, I'd still go for the aegis defense line to abuse cover and objective shenanigans (remember you can't claim objectives from inside vehicles/buildings).
The wych build is nerfed but the relatively cheap DE vehicles retain their power.
The DE are still a slightly less than alpha strike army. If a DE goes first, they still have the capability of gutting an opponent before he even gets to do anything.
DEIMO remains an army that you know how the game is going to go by turn 2. If the majority of the vehicles are alive, they will probably win. If they are smoking wrecks the T3 troops will die horribly fast.
Remember the opposite side, the opponent also has to deal with HP. 3 penetrating hits and most of his stuff is going to be dead.
I think the nature of the DE build has changed but it is still the glass hammer it always was.
1 Baron Satonyx
12 Nightmare beasts, 4 razorbeack, 2 beastmasters.
Two units of warriors with shard cannon in raider
Two units of grenade wytches in venoms
4 blasterborn in a venom
3 Ravangers
My oponent had IG elysian troops I think
1 Vendetta las cannons
1 Flyer with 20 shots gun with strafing run
1 Flyer with lascannon/autocannon and 4 larger missiles with flamer template
A lot of random units, including some storm troopers, a unit of 3 flamers, a unit with 3 mortars and 2 units with sentinels with heavy bolter.
The mission was an odd mission he had made up based on an old mission from an older edition.
The map was a huge water place. Islands everywhere. The water was dangerous terrain that you could not run in. Skimmers could travel them safely. Some islands and a walkway with some petrol towers on the defenders deployment zone.
A tech priest and some IG was starting near his board edge and trying to move off. Nothing else started on the map. (A bit lame since it negates the bad things with flyers.) My fast attack choise came up on the short board edge turn 1.
My reserves could come from eater side of the long board edges from turn 3.
We had night fighting the first 3 turns (turn 1 nothing really happens) and some odd weather condition makes everything scatter twice the distance, skimmers fly 6" shorter in the movement phase. Flyers have to roll a dice when they move, on a 1 they loose a hull point. Jump infantry moves 6.
We let the baron join the best pack and come on turn 1 (there where nowhere else he could go in my list) and we agreed that he could move the regular 12".
The rules where all over the place. Badly incorporated with 6th edition: a lot of the warlord traits did not function as we where fighting for the control of the teckpriest as the only price. Had we not tweaked the movement rule of the baron I would never have made it over the table in time. Why did the beasts have to run up on the short table edge? It is much better to be in reserves as they could come on from the sides. The terrain, while there was a lot of it, did not really give cover saves (it was little aria terrain, only water vs non water mostly) Also the weather table double scatter really messed up his reserves since all of his came dropping out of the sky. Also, the fact that nothing started on the map sort a ruined some good turns of fun before the flyers appeared.
That being sead it was a really fun game. We had to end it on turn 4 because we had to leave. Some of his units where holding the techpriest so he got the victory. My beast pack would have eaten him the next turn and given me the teckpriest. I also had managed to kill 2 of his flyers and the last one (the rocket ship) did not have any missiles left.
I had no previous experience with flyers, but as long as you keep hugging the sides of the table and do not have targets in every direction that they can shoot at they do not seem so game breaking. True there is no hiding from them on some turns because they shoot like hell. The one I did take out was 6 dark lances getting lucky from a ravager (I had tried for 2 rounds) the other one got taken out in a charge from satonyx and beasts in a multi charge. I charged the vendetta that had dropped of the unit to pick up the techpriest. Unfortunately my opponent rolled a 6 while I rolled a 1 on the sweeping advance.
All in all a very fun match even with the dodgy rules. I do feel the rules need to be incorporated into 6th edition though as victory points are quite crucial. Also, some of the deployment rules where way off. Beast being forced to enter on the short table edge and run across the table? What if it was jump infantry that could only move 6? Sounds odd. Also bringing structures in an army list would not have worked that great since I had no deployment zone.
I was a bit underwhelmed by how fast my things died once they started getting shot at.
I was thinking of running a 20 man blob of warriors with the Duke behind an aegis defense line with quad gun, sit them on an objective. Have the Duke shoot the quad gun, sounds like it could be quite effective.
Can you throw haywire grenades at flyers? A lucky shot would end a flyers day for sure. I may try that when my mate get some flyers, just wyches in venom's with haywire grenades XD that would be awesome
I threw some grenades at flyers yesterday as they came zoooming past. But I did not even hit it. :-/
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am also wondering about a new "unit" for dark eldar. We often use wytches now for the haywire grenades, but upon fielding them I was not so impressed. (My oponent had no tanks :-p) However it is a very limited unit that cannot really acive anything. All it does it runn around like a headles chicken, because it would die to owerwatch. How about using true born? They can get haywire grenades. In the meantime give the splinter cannons or carbines for anti infantery. Sudenly you have a double purpose model?
Niiai wrote: fire dragons cannot claim onjectives anyway.
But the defense line will not help my gliding boats :-( They are to high up I belive? The building looks cool enough.
Yeah that's true. The Aegis Defense Line won't help any vehicle in both the DE or CWE army as you don't get 25% cover.
It'd probably help War Walkers.
But yeah, my personal preference is Bastion / Fortress.
I'd also go with Barebones Trueborn with lances, or maybe a lone Haemonculi to fire it.
Even though I haven't tested it myself, I think the ADL won't provide cover to more than 25% of the War Walkers.
25% of the height not 25% of the model
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Can you throw haywire grenades at flyers? A lucky shot would end a flyers day for sure. I may try that when my mate get some flyers, just wyches in venom's with haywire grenades XD that would be awesome
i have hit a flyer with a haywire grenade. immortal, drugged up, gladiator hags can do anything.
Niiai wrote: I threw some grenades at flyers yesterday as they came zoooming past. But I did not even hit it. :-/
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am also wondering about a new "unit" for dark eldar. We often use wytches now for the haywire grenades, but upon fielding them I was not so impressed. (My oponent had no tanks :-p) However it is a very limited unit that cannot really acive anything. All it does it runn around like a headles chicken, because it would die to owerwatch. How about using true born? They can get haywire grenades. In the meantime give the splinter cannons or carbines for anti infantery. Sudenly you have a double purpose model?
For Splinter cannon trueborn, I'd say go for it. I'm planning on it, just haven't come up with the right build yet. It's only 6pts for a group of three, IMO it's worth the small investment to enable the unit to take out a couple hull points if needed.
In a blasterborn unit, I wouldn't take them tough. They're expensive enough as it is, and they already pop tanks.
The only real disadvantage is they aren't scoring like Wyches are, so it's kind of a toss-up.
Gha...played with DE the other day and it struck me that AP 2 weapons has a 4 in 6 chance of destroying us. :-/ Quite anoying.
On another mote has somebody tryed a reserved heavy flyers list?
We are very fragile this edition, but if you drop some WWP turn one, then turn 2 you can get a lott of flyers and troops on the table. Sutch a list would not use many transports exept for perhaps WWP delivery.
One could potensially ally with regular eldar to get axes to scoring bikes (late turn objective grabbers?) autarch, a better plane (if forge world allowed) and some outflanking war walkers.
Had another game against Chaos, man the new turret flamer helldrake and the ignore cover vector strike is really brutal against us, the report is below if anyone is interested (pictures as usual):
I do like your bikes. I wish I had some (I am currently painting my beasts for the barron) 3 drakes is a lott in sutch a small game. I recently played against 3 flyers in a 1500 point game and I felt mobilaty was my only way to survive them. You also have a very keen tactical mind and plan on how you are going to winn from the start. Not a bad idea.
I do like your bikes. I wish I had some (I am currently painting my beasts for the barron) 3 drakes is a lott in sutch a small game. I recently played against 3 flyers in a 1500 point game and I felt mobilaty was my only way to survive them. You also have a very keen tactical mind and plan on how you are going to winn from the start. Not a bad idea.
Thanks. Honestly I think three drakes is overkill it's a lot of points on stuff that isn't on the board first turn. As for having a plan, it's all about being the active player!
Hi there! I'm a new Dark Eldar player, and wanted to get some information from people who have experience playing them.
This would be the first army I've played, as I got into 40k a few years ago, but never managed to get a complete army together (partially because I never could make up my mind as to what I wanted, based on factors such as looks and play style). Now, I have bought the 6th edition rulebook (which seems at first glance to be a bit more complicated than 5th Ed appeared, to me, anyway), and a copy of the Dark Eldar codex, but I have only a vague idea of how they play. I was hoping you guys could give me a few tips on which units are good for what, and perhaps some ideas on what I should take in order to build a decently competitive army, without making it too cheesy. I have read a good portion of this thread, and have managed to gather a small idea as to how the DE should be fielded, but, again, would like some guidance as to how I should form my army.
Now, I'm not asking someone to come and throw a list at me or anything, as I know that simply using something someone else created really isn't going to help to understand the playstyle (hell, I'm going to need to find someone in my area who'd be willing to help me get the basic rules down), but I will probably try to post a list or two if I can get some advice from this thread, and maybe you guys would be able to tell me what would be utter crap, and what could potentially work.
Sweord wrote: Hi there! I'm a new Dark Eldar player, and wanted to get some information from people who have experience playing them.
This would be the first army I've played, as I got into 40k a few years ago, but never managed to get a complete army together (partially because I never could make up my mind as to what I wanted, based on factors such as looks and play style). Now, I have bought the 6th edition rulebook (which seems at first glance to be a bit more complicated than 5th Ed appeared, to me, anyway), and a copy of the Dark Eldar codex, but I have only a vague idea of how they play. I was hoping you guys could give me a few tips on which units are good for what, and perhaps some ideas on what I should take in order to build a decently competitive army, without making it too cheesy. I have read a good portion of this thread, and have managed to gather a small idea as to how the DE should be fielded, but, again, would like some guidance as to how I should form my army.
Now, I'm not asking someone to come and throw a list at me or anything, as I know that simply using something someone else created really isn't going to help to understand the playstyle (hell, I'm going to need to find someone in my area who'd be willing to help me get the basic rules down), but I will probably try to post a list or two if I can get some advice from this thread, and maybe you guys would be able to tell me what would be utter crap, and what could potentially work.
Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read this.
As you say someone giving you a list is not the way to go. The biggest thing to me is your personnal style. For instance, I love reavers, kalabites and raiders. Look at other DE armies and they will be based around beast masters, wyches and venoms. Specialist lists will emphasize wracks, haemonculi etc. You have to know what you want your army to accomplish... I can give you my thoughts but this is up to you.
1. I like raiders over venoms. I like distributed anti-tank firepower so having 6 raiders over 6 venoms seems better to me. Emphasizing kalabites seems better to me than wyches in 6th edition.
2. I LOVE reavers... 2 caltrops and 2 heat lances... killing or softening up targets in the MOVEMENT phase is big. 2D6 S6 and 4D3 S4 hits means Demon Lords must beware as also the marine 10-man squad will be cut down to size so that your kalabites can easily obtain pain tokens. Yes they are brittle but what DE unit is not brittle.
3. Anti-tank vs anti-personnel. I think this is the biggest shift in 6th edition. I used to run 2 ravagers and 1 razorwing in 5th edition, I think I will shift this to 2 or 3 razorwings. They still provide you with great anti-tank - not as good as ravagers - but still great. The missiles and to a lesser degree the splinter cannon provides you with great anti-horde capability and I think the multi-task nature as well as the "protection" of being a flyer makes them superior choices.
4. After that, I like 1 or 2 elites in venoms to provide that extra oomph to the army. Hellbrides, trueborne, or incubi depending on your taste.
Now that is my style of DE but as I said, there are many viable choices for DE to build around. The common theme is lethal but brittle choices. other than some specialist lists (WWP come to mind) speed is the other constant. So it is what cheap, lethal paper airplanes carrying what asthmatic psychopaths you want.
Sweord wrote: Hi there! I'm a new Dark Eldar player, and wanted to get some information from people who have experience playing them.
This would be the first army I've played, as I got into 40k a few years ago, but never managed to get a complete army together (partially because I never could make up my mind as to what I wanted, based on factors such as looks and play style). Now, I have bought the 6th edition rulebook (which seems at first glance to be a bit more complicated than 5th Ed appeared, to me, anyway), and a copy of the Dark Eldar codex, but I have only a vague idea of how they play. I was hoping you guys could give me a few tips on which units are good for what, and perhaps some ideas on what I should take in order to build a decently competitive army, without making it too cheesy. I have read a good portion of this thread, and have managed to gather a small idea as to how the DE should be fielded, but, again, would like some guidance as to how I should form my army.
Now, I'm not asking someone to come and throw a list at me or anything, as I know that simply using something someone else created really isn't going to help to understand the playstyle (hell, I'm going to need to find someone in my area who'd be willing to help me get the basic rules down), but I will probably try to post a list or two if I can get some advice from this thread, and maybe you guys would be able to tell me what would be utter crap, and what could potentially work.
Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read this.
Honestly, pick out what what you like and build around that. The only 'bad' unit in the Dex are Mandrakes, so stear clear of those if possible. Webway Portals don't work so well anymore either.
I got into DE because they have the best models IMO. I love the Hellion and Reaver models (and Scourges, but haven't worked them in yet), so my lists are based on that core. Other units have grown on me as I've progressed.
Another option is to pick the HQ choice you like the best, and build a list to fit him/her. I really like the Baron and Lady Malys, or sometimes the Duke, and its not too hard to tailor lists around them.
Two pieces of advice. Don't try to get many units that are slow or need to be immobile to work (Dark Lances on foot, etc.). Don't go heavy on unit upgrades, the base stats/equipment on most DE units is usually pretty good. Its better to take more cheaper units than fewer expensive ones.
Let us know what you like and we can give you more specific advice.
Well, I like the idea of a fast army, using things such as Reavers and Hellions, and probably Kabalites in Raiders. I guess the main thing I like about DE are the vehicles, in that they don't look the same as other vehicles in 40k.
I played against Tau Saturday and went all in on assaults turn 2 (Emperor's will game type). I made it across the board turn 1 but his turn of shooting wrecked 2 raiders and pretty much pinned me down 3 inches in front of his entire army for the next turn. Would it be better to dance out of his range for a turn or two and wear him down before going for the assault? A 12 man Fire Warrior squad in rapid fire range will glance a raider to death if you get caught; I made this mistake and it cost me the game.
Also, Lelith was my HQ but got ID'd by a snap fired melta on a crisis suit... How do people run her usually?
I've only ever played Tau (minor games vs others though nothing worth talking about) and find that swamping him 1 unit at a time really does for them.
Last game I committed 2 venoms with dual SC's to one squad of FW's 9cover was blocking los from his other units), wiped them out and reduced his total number of shots per turn by about a third.
The thing I've struggled with is when he castles up, and he has those missile launchers that can blind fire over cover - I struggle to get to him whilst keeping myself safe. In this instance I actually just kept out of his range, crawled under cover and let him close the gap, using my higher BS to wither him down as he came on.
Raiders with FF's and splinter racks are your best friend
I've been criticised for this before, though I'll say it again. Using Mandrakes to assault his XV88's simply to stop them shooting me down at the mid table point is the best thing ever. They do feth all damage, but when they're saving a 150 point squad per turn from getting bogged down I consider them worth it
Automatically Appended Next Post: (that was 5th ed)
Yea, I kind of felt like I played entirely to his strengths and not to my own. My list was also built to harass and pick off MEQ armies with lots of armor and he brought 4 full squads of warriors. I was unfamiliar with tau and their weaponry as well and kind of gave him a lot of easy kills. Next game I'll go for a more cat and mouse approach.
So, I was trying to make a 500 point list for my potential DE army, and this is what I came up with. Please tell me what you honestly think, it won't bother me if you guys tell me it's going to do horribly, I can just keep at it until it works.
it'll do fine but I personally prefer a succubus with an agonizer at this point level, nightshields would be better than shock prow if you can fit it, otherwise you could also try just two squads of 5 kabalite warriors in venoms as your troops and go from there. Grotesques make excellent body guards.
Also if you're looking for help on a list, bring this over to the army lists section of the forum
Had my first game against tyranids since 4th edition, those flying hive tyrants can sure take a beating! The report is bellow if anyone is interested (with pictures as usual):
Hey guys, been out of 40k for a few months and only had a few games in 6th edition (though almost all of them have been in tournaments). I wanted to run my list by some fellow Dark Eldar players and see what you guys thought. I’ve had a ton of success so far, but my lack of knowledge of the current meta is leaving me a bit nervous.
The list:
Baron
Haemie VB, Liquifier
X3 3 Blasterborn
X3 Venom +SC, NS
X2 5 Warriors Blaster
X2 Venom +SC, NS
5 Wyches Haywire Grenades
Venom +SC, NS
8 Wracks +liquifer, Acothyst
Raider +NS
5 Wracks liquifier
Venom +SC, NS
4 Wracks
3 Beastmasters/4 Khymarae/4 Razorwing Swarms
X3 Ravagers +NS
ADL +quad gun (baron and wracks on foot man gun)
So far this list has managed to murder everything its come across save a massed Necron flier list and a Tau suit spam list played by an amazing general and some crazy dice. Anything less than 2 fliers has been handled by the Quad Gun and massed lance/blaster fire.
I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I have radically changed my list from what I had been playing earlier. Both in 5th ed., and right away into 6th.
My 1850 list (which I think I'm going to play at tournaments) is:
HQ The Duke
Elite
3- blasterborn
venom, sc, ns
3- trueborn with 2 sc venom, sc, ns
Troop
9 wyches, haywire, hg, vb, pgl raider, ns
10 wyches, haywire, 2 hg, vb, pgl raider, ns
10 wyches, haywire, 2 hg, vb, pgl raider, ns
5 wyches, haywire
venom, ns, sc
5 wyches, haywire
venom, ns, sc
Heavy Support
Ravager, ff, ns
voidraven, ff
razorwing jetfighter, ff, 2 ss missiles, sc
That I believe is right on the head at 1850. That is 10 vehicles, and a lot of anti-armor, and anti infantry/ everything else.
My tactic is deploy defensively by giving cover to my raiders from the venoms. Turn 1 the duke jumps in the raider with 9 wyches, and the three trueborn with the sc's stay in cover and just keep shooting for maximum shots. I figure out how my opponent deploys, and flat out turn 1 with everything to hit him on one of his flanks. Turn two I am usually in close combat with one of my wych squads.
I really like DE and think that they are still a really hard hitting army. Just have to be precise with them. Can't make a lot of mistakes and still pull out a victory.
I'm looking forward to playing against a pretty competitive Imp guard list these next few weeks, just because that is a pretty hard army to beat as DE.
I'm starting to think the way to go against tau is deepstriking raiders and venoms, negate their range from the off. Maybe drop empty transports to avoid snapshot restrictions, watch them panic and go for a turn 2 blaster rush.
Also, I cannot beat my bro in laws shas el at all. I have bad luck on my sf rolls then get id'd after he vector jumps away from me, it sucks, I haven't beaten him once!
Ah Tau. My speciality. I play a lot of armies, but Tau are my most loved.
Tau are more dangerous at short range than long, but disorganized charges are the key to killing the Tau and you're onto something there. Deep striking a bunch of raiders means that whether the Tau blow the Raiders up or they dont, they are getting charged next round as long as pinning checks are successful.
Disorganized charge the hell out of them. It's a good way to go. Also, dont forget that Tau dont like your Night shields very much. They lose rapid firing at a certain distance because of it so its doubly useful to take those if DS'ing.
And DE characters with loads of attacks should manhandle the Shas'El.
What do you mean you get Instant Death'd when he vector jumps. His jump is just hit and run. Do you mean that he shoots you afterwards? Just trying to be clear. He's not dropping the failsafe after jumping or anything hokey like that is he?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah Tau. My speciality. I play a lot of armies, but Tau are my most loved.
Tau are more dangerous at short range than long, but disorganized charges are the key to killing the Tau and you're onto something there. Deep striking a bunch of raiders means that whether the Tau blow the Raiders up or they dont, they are getting charged next round as long as pinning checks are successful.
Disorganized charge the hell out of them. It's a good way to go. Also, dont forget that Tau dont like your Night shields very much. They lose rapid firing at a certain distance because of it so its doubly useful to take those if DS'ing.
And DE characters with loads of attacks should manhandle the Shas'El.
What do you mean you get Instant Death'd when he vector jumps. His jump is just hit and run. Do you mean that he shoots you afterwards? Just trying to be clear. He's not dropping the failsafe after jumping or anything hokey like that is he?
A disorganised charge is a multicharge.
You move your unit into combat with more than 1 unit.
You don't gain the bonus attacks for charging when you do this though.
But against Tau it won't really matter.
Well do you have to make it into base with both units? Or just one and then consolidate into the other squad? Also Overwatch from two squads will hurt so make sure you get close enough to take some casualties
1. Declear multi charge. (Look out for flamers.)
2. Take hits from ovverwatch.
3. Move closest to the closest first unit (I think you need to decleare who this is from the start?)
4. Move the nect unit into base to base with the first unit but you must remain within 2" of the first model you moved ass all units you move must be in base to base.
5. After all of the first units models are in base to base you can now try to move into base to base with the new unit. Remember this means you stil need to be 2" close to the already charged models. This can be tricky.
That said, I think it is it's only bad match up, it just made me chuckle that the first bat rep I have seen with a MF it has to face haywire nades 
Will look forward to part 2.
Guard, 
_
_
) cause a lot of problems i like to abuse the fact you can shoot the transported squad at a different target, my 5 man warrior squads with blasters have caused much havock.
big mistake
