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Actually, no. That would make a huge difference. I need to get some more games in 6th. I'm still missing a few rules on a regular basis.

 Foo wrote:

ThePhish wrote:
What's the general consensus on flickerfields in 6th? I'm torn. I've lost the roll to go first 3 out of the last 4 games I've played and it's cost 2-3 vehicles turn 1 with no save of any kind.

Are you remembering to roll for night fighting before deployment? At least half the time, you should be able to deploy almost without fear or at least +2 save.

Exactly. First you have a 50% to go first (or more with the Baron) and even if you go second, a 50% chance it's Nightfighting anyway. So a flickerfield with regards to first turn is only effective 25% of your games. That's not to say anything about assaults or cover ignoring weaponry.

 Ovion wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.

Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(

Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.

I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.

 lord_bobbington wrote:
Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.

I've been thinking of different ways of using heat lance reavers...

 htj wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.

Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(

Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.

I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.

Yeah - I'd spent the 5-6 months prior to 6th coming out making Webway Portals, and acquiring extra Haemonculi / Wracks / Grotesques / Talos for it.
Then with the proposed Allies rules being confirmed, I got an Autarch, and my next purchase after the 6th Ed rulebook was to be an Eldar Battleforce.
Then the 50% limit + cannot assault out Reserves hits, and it's kneecaps are blown off. :(

 Ovion wrote:

 htj wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.

Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(

Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.

I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.

Yeah - I'd spent the 5-6 months prior to 6th coming out making Webway Portals, and acquiring extra Haemonculi / Wracks / Grotesques / Talos for it.
Then with the proposed Allies rules being confirmed, I got an Autarch, and my next purchase after the 6th Ed rulebook was to be an Eldar Battleforce.
Then the 50% limit + cannot assault out Reserves hits, and it's kneecaps are blown off. :(

Yeah.

My All-coven WWP list went the same way. I still run all-coven lists sometimes, but it's not as cool as it once was.

 Ascalam wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 htj wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 lord_bobbington wrote:
Using a WWP for shooting units for the most part loses out on the turns they could normally be shooting. However there are a few exceptions that might make for a good WWP list, reavers with heat lances or getting an eldar detachment and putting in a squad of wraithguard, it gets them out right at the range which they can actually use their guns effectively without being shot up in the meantime and losing effectiveness.

Allies can't use the Webway Portals. :(

Would still like to get me some Wraithguard and Wraithlords though.

I was about to ask why when I thought to check the FAQ first. Well, that's rubbish. Once again, my plans to find a use for my converted webway portal are scuppered.

Yeah - I'd spent the 5-6 months prior to 6th coming out making Webway Portals, and acquiring extra Haemonculi / Wracks / Grotesques / Talos for it.
Then with the proposed Allies rules being confirmed, I got an Autarch, and my next purchase after the 6th Ed rulebook was to be an Eldar Battleforce.
Then the 50% limit + cannot assault out Reserves hits, and it's kneecaps are blown off. :(

Yeah.

My All-coven WWP list went the same way. I still run all-coven lists sometimes, but it's not as cool as it once was.

Want to guess how my wych list turned out after 6th edition was released?

Don't need to guess. I know :( Good against vehicles now, but gakky against most everything else.

I hadn't wanted to go Kabal-heavy, but i kindof have to these days. I can pull off surprising wins with all-coven sometimes, but it was the weakest of the 3 'pure' options in 5th, and is far worse now..

On the plus side, my Wet T-shirt Contest list is still doing very well in 6th.

Haemonculus w/ Liquifier and Shattershard

4x 5 Wracks w/ Liquifier Gun and Raider w/ Flickerfield and Dissie

3x 4 Trueborn w/ Blasters and Venom

3x Ravagers w/ Flickerfields.

Pretty straightforward list. Blasters and Dark Lances handle armor, venoms and liquifier guns handle infantry. Almost always gives away the Kill The Warlord victory point, but usually gets First Blood to make up for it, and is exceptional at clearing units, any units, off of objectives. You haven't lived until you've seen the results of 5 liquifier guns in a single shooting phase. Not to mention the disintegrators do dirty things to whatever isn't in cover. It's no good against lists with multiple fliers, but I'm pondering the idea of dropping the transports for more bodies and more liquifier guns. Plus, I know that list I just posted has plenty of spare points to futz around with, so I'll probably do something about that later. This is, after all, a list left over from 5th.

It's just served me well so far in 6th, I've won four out of the six games it's been used in.

 Ascalam wrote:
Don't need to guess. I know :( Good against vehicles now, but gakky against most everything else.

I hadn't wanted to go Kabal-heavy, but i kindof have to these days. I can pull off surprising wins with all-coven sometimes, but it was the weakest of the 3 'pure' options in 5th, and is far worse now..

I am proud of the victory against a gunline guard army with my wych cult list in 6th though. My succubus survived 2 direct hits from a manticore.

Nice!

I've had the odd surprise with my Coven, but in general 6th isn't kind to them.

At least I also have my Orks

One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?

The Cranulator wrote:
One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?

How do they play against razorwings?

 Ascalam wrote:
Nice!

I've had the odd surprise with my Coven, but in general 6th isn't kind to them.

At least I also have my Orks

I've found the opposite actually, but I play more grotesques than wracks, and FNP for tougher units is much better than it was in 5th. I also put eldrad in my list so I can get the 4++ and give it to both groups and watch people try impotently to destroy them, I put Urien out at the front of one, do some LoS and if if he takes a wound, so what

I used to play a WWP list but with all the changes and the vulnerability of venoms I just go for toughness and walk up the board. Though I am toying with putt a WWP on the Haemonculus in one of my grotesque squads so I can put the talos in there to help with their survivability. Though getting easy cover saves for them is nice.

I do love my scourges, they are beautiful looking models, but often I just wish reavers were coven fluffy.

 gaovinni wrote:

The Cranulator wrote:
One thing I am having trouble with as of late is my friends newly formed Chaos army. The main issue I am having is he uses noise marines as troop types and their weapons are proving quite troublesome. The blast masters take out all DE vehicles quite effectively and the fact that the entire squad negates jink saves (and all cover for that matter) is making things very difficult for me to deal with. Anyone have any suggestions?

How do they play against razorwings?

I completely obliterated a squad with a Razorwing just two days ago. They become a bit of a threat if they're using a Skyfire Nexus, but otherwise I would agree that this is a good solution. Although, it's one that requires you to weather an indeterminate number of turns of shooting before it gets there.

Other option would be Dissie Ravagers. So long as you maneuver carefully, you should be able to strip away a few squads with relative ease.

 lord_bobbington wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Nice!

I've had the odd surprise with my Coven, but in general 6th isn't kind to them.

At least I also have my Orks

I've found the opposite actually, but I play more grotesques than wracks, and FNP for tougher units is much better than it was in 5th. I also put eldrad in my list so I can get the 4++ and give it to both groups and watch people try impotently to destroy them, I put Urien out at the front of one, do some LoS and if if he takes a wound, so what

I used to play a WWP list but with all the changes and the vulnerability of venoms I just go for toughness and walk up the board. Though I am toying with putt a WWP on the Haemonculus in one of my grotesque squads so I can put the talos in there to help with their survivability. Though getting easy cover saves for them is nice.

I do love my scourges, they are beautiful looking models, but often I just wish reavers were coven fluffy.

Interesting

I'm not a fan of the allies thing, but i might give a variant of that a shot.

I only have 10 grotesques so far. I've not had time to cobble together the other 20.

You could do Reavers piloted by wracks Or convert up some creepy flesh-mech monster analogue to them

I love my scourges. Among the best models GW ever out put out imo. Gitz won't bunch up neatly for deepstrike though..

 Ascalam wrote:


Interesting

I'm not a fan of the allies thing, but i might give a variant of that a shot.

I only have 10 grotesques so far. I've not had time to cobble together the other 20.

You could do Reavers piloted by wracks Or convert up some creepy flesh-mech monster analogue to them

I love my scourges. Among the best models GW ever out put out imo. Gitz won't bunch up neatly for deepstrike though..

My friend and I used to joke that about having grotesques on jetbikes.

30 Grotesques would be horrible to face, I would dearly love to have that many *manaical laughter* especially if you then combine that with eldar allies.

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere on dakka or this thread.
What's the general consensus on Scourges? I think they're nice models, and I love deepstriking jump infantry, but otherwise they look like they put out about the same kind of firepower as a warriors squad just with a few more shots and more mobility. How do you all use them?

lizardwolf19 wrote:
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere on dakka or this thread.
What's the general consensus on Scourges? I think they're nice models, and I love deepstriking jump infantry, but otherwise they look like they put out about the same kind of firepower as a warriors squad just with a few more shots and more mobility. How do you all use them?

Well they are one of the rare ways of fielding haywire cannons assuming that they are what you want them to use but in my opinnion splinter cannons would work for deepstriking purposes. Shard carbines and splinter cannons would put out an impressive amount of shots and as they are assault weapons they allow charging in the assault phase though scourges do not belong into melee. I don't personally use them. I bought the box for some of the bits although I did end up putting the squad together but I have never used it.

I like Scourges a lot too, mainly for the models. Its a hard choice on how to arm them, either all splinter weapons, or sort of a Jack of all Trades (with some anti-armor weapons). On one hand taking 10 just with a Solarite and full Splinter cannons gives the unit one job, and they do it well, with flexibility of extra range. But we already have many units that excel at killing infantry. On the other hand, throw some Heat Lances in and they can hurt tanks. Problem is, you can only 'plan' on them doing 2 HP per turn, not too great for the cost. And you're losing out on the carbines from the rest of the squad.

Personally, I take the splinter cannon setup and leave anti-hunting to wyches, reavers and the heavies. For a really competitive list, probably leave them at home, going for warriors/trueborn/beastpacks/venoms is a more efficient means to kill infantry IMO.

Of course, every time I try to leave them out of a list, I look at the models... and put them right back in.

lizardwolf19 wrote:
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere on dakka or this thread.
What's the general consensus on Scourges? I think they're nice models, and I love deepstriking jump infantry, but otherwise they look like they put out about the same kind of firepower as a warriors squad just with a few more shots and more mobility. How do you all use them?

the problem with scorges is that you have to pay for those fancy shardcarbines, ghost plate, and jump packs which make them very expensive. At that point giving them heat lances, blasters or haywire blasters wastes your shardcarbines. Heatlances arent great either, slightly longer range poor mans meltaguns. And by that I mean very poor mans melta guns. Haywireblasters seem good as they strip a hull point on 2+, but they have to hit, and a blaster will strip as hull point on 4+(or better) has twice the chance to pen and on a pen twice the chance to explode. On top of that they can ID T4 AND deny armor saves. Not a good deal.

If you want to run them, run with splinter cannons for anti infantry. You can move and shoot a ton at 18" or stand still and shoot a bunch out to 36". Also note these guys got a lot better against assault with all the shots in overwatch.

Wyches now take out armor very well at short range, perhaps you could give scourges haywires.

My question is now that you get cover saves in addition to normal saves and Jink is a cover save would you get Jink and Flickerfields?

 CaptainHonkey wrote:
My question is now that you get cover saves in addition to normal saves and Jink is a cover save would you get Jink and Flickerfields?

Can a model take a cover save and an invul?
Nope, just 1.

Both apply simultaneously.

Flickerfields work even when you aren't moving, and are an invulnerable save. They work on Dangerous terrain and in CC also. (but you have to pay for them, except on venoms)

Jink only works only when mobile, and is a cover save (which can be negated by some weapons). It can be improved by anything that improves your cover save, such as stealth and shrouded (iirc). It doesn't work in CC or for Dangerous Terrain.

You only get to take one save, though. Flickerfields are more generally useful, especially on turn one when you go second (no jink, as you haven't moved yet).

 CaptainHonkey wrote:
My question is now that you get cover saves in addition to normal saves and Jink is a cover save would you get Jink and Flickerfields?

no, you get the 5+ or the 5++. Just like nob bikers and their 4+ or 4+

Has anyone tried mandrake heavy lists? I know it seems like a waste but if you deploy them standard a joined IC could really boost them.

Yes.

They're still terrible.

A Haemonculus can boost them up to a viable shooting threat and make them kinda durable, but they can do the same for a Kabalite squad who was already a more potent shooting threat to begin with.

Mandrakes are bad, full stop. There is no way to make them good that doesn't involve devoting more points, time and energy into them than they are worth.

Reavders got good in sixth. Like, really good. You might not be able to assault out of a wwp, but those bladevanes aren't used.in assault. And readers can be abit shooty, which is never bad. DEjust got changed to a moe shootsy army.

Kabalite DE (shooty) work well, still.

Problem is, that's only 1/3 to 1/2 of the codex.

The other 1/2 to 2/3 were assault units that depended on being able to zoom up up in raiders, jump out and then assault

They can still putt-putt over in raiders and assault, but it's not the same thing....

not being able to assault from a WWP also killed the Talos's best tactic, popping out from a wwp and wrecking face. They can still pop out and shoot, but will die the next turn before they can get into CC. They are only 3 wound beasts, with 3+ armour, and can be taken down by bolters, let alone heavy weapons fire.

DE can still be very effective, but the number of units that you can be very effective with, and the tactics you can use to do so, are reduced by 6th edition.

I agree that mandrakes are terrible but if you are going to use them, the best tactic I've found after several hours of searching is to deploy them 12" ahead of a venom or raider with a squad and a Haemy, drop the Haemy 6" and have him join the mandrakes then have everything shoot, maybe have the Haemy drop a WWP or something, if not the. You could infiltrate the mandrakes a little farther and have him run to catch up. Make sure they are in cover.

Yes reavers kick butt, woe to you who faces SoB or Noise Marines