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Exergy wrote:And Necrons, who are supposed to be a slow race, get war scythes at full init?

To be fair, it is at I2.

However, like always, GW sells models not a game. They already had a great success over that past few months with the DE reboot. They don't need the players anymore until another decade passes and they can "reboot" them again. That's the cycle. Buff one army until it's really good, nerf it in order to force people to buy another army. Rinse wash repeat. They tread a narrow line of alienating players enough to switch armies, but not enough to quit the game. It seems like they might have stumbled. Time will tell if they fall.

Who sells more? Marines do. Who gets the better toys? Marines do. Who is easier to play? Marines are. Return to start of loop.

Welcome to 6th Edition 40k aka MEq/TerminatorHammer.

Finally, I'd like to add that despite all my anti-GW rhetoric, I am still willingly buying their products and thus encouraging this behaviour. It's just a game and like any other there's always going to be a meta that updates every so often.

Sasori wrote:

CorvidMP wrote:I heard totally unsubstantiated rumors relentless might give rapid fire an extra shot, (heresy online I think it was).

Additionally I've read they get 4+ cover save for just moving now, and a 3+ while boosting (aparently jet bikes get a 5+ cover just for moving and skilled rider bumps it up by one or some such)

I have the rulebook. Listen to me

Bikes and Jetbikes have Jink, which gives them a 5+ just for moving. Turboboosting in the Shooting phase will improve it to a 4+ They also have the Hammer of Wrath rule.

DE Reavers get +5 Jink... it's since they're skilled riders, it's a really a +4 Jink and they can ignore dangerous terrain to boot!

I still don't understand the jetbike's assualt move... is it 2d6 to charge? Or 2d6 move elsewhere during assault phase?

If people want to bring a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor in every squad, be my guest, because they wont be in rhinos, therefore, I'll just blast them away.

Honestly, I'm not worried, no 4+ cover is fine for me, because we get a free 5+ cover, so Night Fields are my new taker.

Wyches, couldn't you just model the Hekatrix with a Power Axe? Or is that illegal? Along with that, having a 4+ and then FNP even at a 5+ is fine with me. Sure overwatch hurts, but that makes it more of a challenge, which is what I think 40K should be, not just *Point, Charge, Kill, Consolidate*.

Honestly, until I play a few games, I'm not going to get caught up in the "OMG DE Are so debuffed" Mood.

Just my two cents though.

I really think people are blowing the overwatch against Wyches way out of proportion. With FNP you MAY lose a base or two against most opponents (which would be particularly shooty opponents that you should be handling in assault quite well anyway), and as others have mentioned you could certainly stick the Haeemie up front to eat those wounds for you. IIRC ICs don't bleed victory points anymore. Also, torrent of attacks is now one of the most legitemate ways to clear out Terms (in CC), Wyches have a clear roll here, and Haywire should be an auto include for the girls.

Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.

FNP change is a pretty big buff for Talos/Chronos (as is the cover save changes), as you now get something against the weapons that you feared the most (lazzies, Missles, Lances, etc).

The WWP change makes me a sad panda as well. I still think it's a good delivery system for the MCs, as well as scourges/mandrakes (who can always choose outflank instead), and its not the end of the world for Grots/Wracks coming out of it either, it's still a scatter free DS to get into the opponents grill. But still, no assault is quite a bit disappointing. You just can't base your list around it anymore, but you can still use it as a nasty surprise for a handful of units, and potentially save those units from several turns of shooting. Also, Mandrakes/Haemie becomes an interesting WWP deployment option.

As Exergy has been saying Drazhar is a strait up BEAST. All the IC's are little better (2+ save headaches aside) but Drazhar is nasty.

Reposting my post on /tg/ for all of you guys.
------------------------------------------------------------
People complaining about DE. Hear me!

The new premier assault unit is the beast pack.

Why you ask? Well because it has high wound models and you can even use the Clawed Fiend rule to take wounds and thereby improve its A characteristic by each wound it take.

>"But what about all the wyches I bought? They are worthless now."

Not so fair anon. Your beast pack will be multi assaulting the enemy to take their ovewatch fire before your wyches close to engage. FNP got a nerf and a buff, wyches can still tar pit enemies, particularly dedicated CC enemies that cannot overwatch them.

Wyches and Vehicles:Their haywire grenades are now 8 inch ranged and are now GODLY against all vehicles.

>"We can't capture with guys inside a vehicle on last turn anymore/We can't contest with vehicles anymore."

Well anon you need to invest in Kabal warriors or better yet Eldar allies! Stick some pathfinders in cover next to an obj, they will be hard to shift and you now have snipers! On a 6 they are AP1 and can choose their targets! For maximum trolling snipe guys to break the coherency of Heavy weapon troopers. You not only killed a powerful weapon but now they have to move and can only Snap Shot!

Now you can snipe out those pesky heavy weapons from a devestator squad while making sure you can cap an obj.

>"But vehicles are nerfed, our raiders will be glanced to death!"

Yes and no. Now when you flat out you get 4+ which is decent but more importantly if it is night (50% chance 1st turn and 50% chance on 5th turn and after, if triggered, permanent) you can move up to the 13 inch sweet spot in front of the enemy. you get a +1 to that making it a 3+ cover save if they sit and shoot. If they approach (making it easier for you to charge them with wyches next turn) then you still get a 4+.

Ravagers can sit at the 24-36 sweet spot and get 2+ from shrouded every turn. If they move between 1 and 12 inches each turn they get the 5+ jink cover save plus this 2+ to give them a 3+ cover save while still being able to fire ALL their dark lances.

Venoms with blaster born! Move six, deploy six and shoot 18. thats an effective 30 inch range. If you enemy deploys within 6 of the edge of the deployment zone that is close to you, then you have a fair chance of shooting them. Otherwise, FLAT OUT shenanigans and then shoot them to gak. Venoms also sit in the 24-36 sweet spot for 3+ save while shooting their splinter cannons.

>"Yes but that means we need alpha strike or night fighting, those are not guarenteed!"

True anon but get this. Baron Sathonyx instead of giving a +1 to deployment gives a +1 to the 'who goes first turn' roll. HOLY gak THAT IS AWESOME. Stick him with the beasts to confer his "stealth" special rule to that massive assault unit. Take advantage of cover while crossing the board with the beasts for maximum win!

Make him your warlord and pick you 'warlord table'. I will personally be going for strategic for that 16% chance to force night-fighting regardless.

>"But we have no pyskers!'

bs! We can take eldar psykers now, throw on some fortune, guide and warding runes and he is pretty kick ass.

Also, FWIW, Flicker Fields will still help against assault,templates, and turns you don't move (for what ever reason that might be), and keep in mind CC is a much bigger threat to vehicles then before, so FF still have a roll to play Space Drow Friends.

Absolutely, the days of drive bys with liquifiers while the enemy had to roll 6's to hit are gone. Don't go throwing those FF saves away for Night Shields just yet guys!

I may however switch out my FF's for NS on ravagers as I will almost always trying to stay very far away with them.

I too see no reason for Ravagers or either of the fliers to take FF. Those guys should be playing the range game now, as such Night shields look to be very tempting.

Venoms are stuck with FF and the built in cost. Not much you can do about that, meh. Still a fun shooting platform.

I think raiders might want to stick with them though. As it will now be more important than ever to get that first turn boost and get right into the guys face so that the assault unit inside it has a better chance of getting the charge off.

Just having a Ravager with Disintegrators is alright for 1/3 HS slots, right? The others can be filled with Lance Ravagers or the Fliers.

I dont think my DE army is really changed negatively by the new Ed much.

My reavers will always have a cover save now, my warriors in gunboats can move and fire further.

The numerous dissies I have just got even better.

Im saving 10pts on most vehicles now so I can take some more stuff instead.

Lastly, I can have Eldar! Psykers! How cool I say.

What role is that one ravager playing? and if it is a vital role you need to make sure there is a redundancy... which means switching more ravagers to desintigrator cannons. Thus hurting your darklight spam.

Ok, So giving Drazhar a pain token, pretty much gives him a 5++

Since his eternal warrior cancels out instant death.

ONe of the cool things now is he will get his 2+ save more often, means more chance for his riposte attacks to trigger.

Xeriapt wrote:ONe of the cool things now is he will get his 2+ save more often, means more chance for his riposte attacks to trigger.

Yeah I have been wanting to actually use that . but which AP would you use? ap 3 or ap 2?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would you even get to use an ap?(for Riposte)

Well you choose at the start of the round so I imagine it would be whichever profile you chose at the start.

It just says at his basic str, says nothing about not being able to wield his weapons

Well I guess a basic attack would depend on which ap he use during that sub-phase. Sounds about right too me.

He gets DemiKlaives, so he can either have S4 AP3 attacks or S6 AP2 attacks.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.

This is VERY wrong and Mandrakes are still ass.
ICs without infiltrate cannot join a squad WITH infiltrate during deployment.

Ovion wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Mandrakes got MUCH better. They can Outflank/Infiltrate with a Haemie now, and bring more then enough attacks (and shots) to kill any AV 10 (rear) vehicle. I can't say this enough, the major problematic element to Mandrakes was getting them that first PT, and the fact they didn't really threaten transports. Now they have both they are a pretty amazing buy for 15 points a model.

This is VERY wrong and Mandrakes are still ass.
ICs without infiltrate cannot join a squad WITH infiltrate during deployment.

Spoiler:

I thought I saw that somewhere, I was looking under outflank though lol.

revackey wrote:If people want to bring a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor in every squad, be my guest, because they wont be in rhinos, therefore, I'll just blast them away.

they can also give them runic armor, which is like artificer armor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Well I guess a basic attack would depend on which ap he use during that sub-phase. Sounds about right too me.

does he use his weapons for his special attacks back? I thought they were str4 ap-


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think necrons will be great allies to have.

too bad Necrons are, along with Nids, DA and BA, the only allies DE cannot have.

Jayden63 wrote:Since the stock missiles are pie plates anyway, I'd use the full BS on the two lances and two missiles and then snap the last two missiles. This is even more true if you have changed out the lances for disintegrators.

You can't snap-fire blast / template weapons.

The Good
* Reaver Jetbikes got a lot better. They are much more manuverable than before.

* Talos pain engine got better with changes to MCs. Namely fear and hammer

* Voidraven bombers are extremely good. Only hit on a 6 from shooting, and a 5+ flickerfield save is extremely nice!

* AV 10 open topped vehicles are slightly better. 3 glancing hits still destroyed it on average, so at least they can still move and shoot after being glanced.

* Changes to rapid fire make warriors better. You can now move and shoot 24", making more poisoned shots hit the table.

* Harlequins got much better. Shroud and Stealth gives 2+ cover in woods.

* FNP changes make wracks slightly tougher -- being able to FNP PWs and PGs.

* Beast packs are still very good, and very affordable for what they do.


The Bad
* Assaulting from raiders got worse. You can only move 6", exit, then assault.

* Overwatch makes assaulting with wytches harder now -- though not impossible. A bolter snap shot only has a 1/9 chance of killing a wytch without FNP.

* Wolf guard terminators will be a problem -- though most SW players don't bring them as they cannot fit in most transports. You might also run across runic armor SWs, which can be in transports.

* You can no longer reserve your entire army. You will need to have a squad or two on the foot at the start of the game. Allied pathfinders or DE warriors will do the trick since your 3 flyers won't count to this.

* For 50 points you can bring an aegis defensive line to stick your warriors/pathfinders behind. This helps to keep them alive until your reserves arrive.


The Ally
* Ally with Eldar to gain access to Eldrad -- one of the best force multipliers in the game.

* Ally with Eldar to gain fire dragons -- excellent AV 14 crackers

* Ally with Eldar to gain pathfinders, excellent at sniping PFs or special weapons.

You'll have to deploy more than a squad or two.
Unless you only want to reserve a squad or two.

I'm toying with some sort of shooty webway list... maybe some waveserpents as back up? iunno.

labmouse42 wrote:The Good
* Harlequins got much better. Shroud and Stealth gives 2+ cover in woods. .

you use to be unable to shoot them at all. 2+ cover is worse than unable to shoot at all.
their rending is better now that PW took a nerf

Ovion wrote:You'll have to deploy more than a squad or two.
Unless you only want to reserve a squad or two.

I'm toying with some sort of shooty webway list... maybe some waveserpents as back up? iunno.

Here are my thoughts. Bring 2 squads of warriors and 2 squads of pathfinders. If your ally is eldar, then take a farseer to dual guide/fortune them. Put them all behind an aegis defense line to protect them.

If you take 3 flyers, that lets you reserve 5 other types of transports. I'm not sure the point costs of that army right now, but that should get you close to what you are looking for.

How to take down flying MC's with a 3 ravager list and no skyfire weapons

Venom fires dual splinter cannons. 12 shots. 2 hits average on 6's. Forces grounded check 3+ they pass, otherwise they slam into the ground. 4+ for poison so one wound.

Once you have them on the ground, hit with darklight or more splinter fire until they die.

How to take down flyers with a 3 ravager list and no skyfire weapons

...Darklight spam... Thats all I can think of atm. Good thing is we generally have a lot of them.

Target Priority is probably going to be other targets of opportunity but it depends.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Exergy wrote:And Necrons, who are supposed to be a slow race, get war scythes at full init?

To be fair, it is at I2.

It's still going before power fists and thunder hammers, which is the point. Incubi 'sargeants' also get demiklaives that can get AP2 at regular Initiative. AS THEY SHOULD.

I understand the mechanics of not having every single power weapon out there cleave through temris. But special weapons only sargeants/HQs can take should be AP 2 at regular Ini if they have no other 'strong' rule, such as wounding on 2+, extra pen dice and whatnot.

labmouse42 wrote:

Ovion wrote:You'll have to deploy more than a squad or two.
Unless you only want to reserve a squad or two.

I'm toying with some sort of shooty webway list... maybe some waveserpents as back up? iunno.

Here are my thoughts. Bring 2 squads of warriors and 2 squads of pathfinders. If your ally is eldar, then take a farseer to dual guide/fortune them. Put them all behind an aegis defense line to protect them.

If you take 3 flyers, that lets you reserve 5 other types of transports. I'm not sure the point costs of that army right now, but that should get you close to what you are looking for.

Units that HAVE to be put in reserve like flyers are not counted towards the units you can put in reserve.
So 3 Flyers and 5 other units means you can only put 3 into reserve.

Exergy wrote:

revackey wrote:If people want to bring a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor in every squad, be my guest, because they wont be in rhinos, therefore, I'll just blast them away.

they can also give them runic armor, which is like artificer armor


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Well I guess a basic attack would depend on which ap he use during that sub-phase. Sounds about right too me.

does he use his weapons for his special attacks back? I thought they were str4 ap-


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:I think necrons will be great allies to have.

too bad Necrons are, along with Nids, DA and BA, the only allies DE cannot have.

It just says he gets a bonus attack at basic str of 4.

Ovion wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Since the stock missiles are pie plates anyway, I'd use the full BS on the two lances and two missiles and then snap the last two missiles. This is even more true if you have changed out the lances for disintegrators.

You can't snap-fire blast / template weapons.

Also you can only fire two missiles in any given turn.

Malt wrote:... more importantly if it is night (50% chance every turn, if triggered, permanent)....

Night Fight doesn't work that way.
There is a 50% chance on first turn only.
If not first turn then maybe on Turns 5+