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So basically, don't get into close-combat with TEQs. Hellions and Beasts should be able to do fairly well against MEQs still.

Saturate TEQs with Poison and Darklight I guess. There should be less vehicles around but how are we supposed to even hit flyers?

FAQ is out. Agonizers are not mentioned so must be AP3. Same for Vect's scepter.

No helping hand on wyches.

Joined demiklaives as AP 2 was a nice step, but maybe not enough.

So now DE no longer get to hop over terrain on a skimmer to assault what is on the other side. In a way, it's become a very slow army, as now in terrain-dense tables they have to fly around stuff if they want to assault.

Night Vision helps shooting...but shooting didn't need much help.

So yeah, they are rewarding the crap out of blasterborn venomspam, perhaps with Hellions if you want to fool around with melee.

Not a game I want to play, sorry.

The funny thing is that I chose DE to play as my 2nd army. They were the POLAR opposites of my Tau gunlines...

Looks like I now own 2 stand and shoot armies lol...

Looks like I need to buy some more Kabalites to replace my wyches.

=[

Sasori wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah, Our offensive has gotten better, But what good does it do us if we cant last one turn:( Fnp has gotten slightly better, not enough to make a difference. I may have to use drazhar, his 2+ save will be awesome now

I don't think your skimmers are in any worse shape than before. HPs really don't make a big difference for an AV10 Open topped vehicle. Raiders have 3 HPs and Venoms have 2. If anything, it may make them a tad more survivable, since they won't get blown up from a Glancing hit anymore, unless it's lost all of it's hullpoints.

Raiders are 1/2 as resilient as they were before, while venoms are 1/3 as resilient.

Lack of AP2 CCW doesn't really make a HUGE difference, just take disintegraters ( they're damn good, underrated in 5th and even better in 6th what with glances removing hull points. )

The main issue I have is no more than 50% of the army in reserve, no assaulting out of reserve.
This is a severe kick in the teeth, especially being we finally get the ability to modify reserve rolls ( Autarch ally and/or Comms Relay on fortifications. )
At this point I'm sorely tempted to shelve the webway portals and additional Grotesques I've been working on for the last several months for a wwp list and figure out a different alternate list.

Of course that means the Autarch etc I bought once the allies rules were confirmed become a waste of money... Never thought the reserves rules would change much, certainly not this much.

I know how 4th edition eldar feel. You used to be a really fast army, and then a new edition comes along and makes you the same speed as everyone else.

DE just don't feel like a fast army anymore. Its a 'slow' as everyone else now.

Don't worry though guys, we've already had a year, so we only have 13 more to go before we get a new book.

Yeah. At least with my CSM I can hope the new book will lessen some of the suck.

With DE, it's borked for a decade now. Type "Dark Eldar Army" on eBay now if you want to lauch...or cry.

For added gloom, do the same for "Necron army".

Sephyr wrote:YWith DE, it's borked for a decade now. Type "Dark Eldar Army" on eBay now if you want to lauch...or cry.

-- People are not dumping their DE armies yet, if that's your mistaken impression. The only cheap DE armies are still the ones with old models.

-- I do feel a bit bent over the table so far with my Dark Eldar, but Allies soften the blow and it doesn't appear that my particularly army lists got too boned (I already used lots of haywire and beasts).

Last night there were two very pretty ones with new models. Guess they got sold.

I think necrons will be great allies to have.

I must say I was worried about FNP being reduced to a 5+....However with the boon that is now no longer negated by anything other than instant death, my grotesques have gained a huge leap in suvivability I feel. Combined with Urien and his clone field, the ability to challenge and to have people attack him whether they want to or not, plus no penalty to being fearless (Thankyouthankyouthankyou); I am feeling quite happy.

I am disappointed by the Talos being able to be wounded by S3, but when they most often died to lascannons it didn't come up much, and now killing tanks with them will be a dawdle (even without the 2d6).

Since I played a relatively slow army (coven) anyway, with the potential 12" charge now, I'm doing slightly better. And I can still enact my plan of Raider/Grot bombs.

Edit:

Hmmmmmm, I am pondering over having some eldar Warlocks join my grotesques, I think it's actually making my mouth water.

lord_bobbington wrote:I must say I was worried about FNP being reduced to a 5+....However with the boon that is now no longer negated by anything other than instant death, my grotesques have gained a huge leap in suvivability I feel. Combined with Urien and his clone field, the ability to challenge and to have people attack him whether they want to or not, plus no penalty to being fearless (Thankyouthankyouthankyou); I am feeling quite happy.

I am disappointed by the Talos being able to be wounded by S3, but when they most often died to lascannons it didn't come up much, and now killing tanks with them will be a dawdle.

Since I played a relatively slow army (coven) anyway, with the potential 12" charge now, I'm doing slightly better. And I can still enact my plan of Raider/Grot bombs.

The Talos can't be wounded by Str 3.
It's still T7, and Str 3 can still only wound T5/6

Also - how have Warlocks join?

Ovion wrote:

lord_bobbington wrote:I must say I was worried about FNP being reduced to a 5+....However with the boon that is now no longer negated by anything other than instant death, my grotesques have gained a huge leap in suvivability I feel. Combined with Urien and his clone field, the ability to challenge and to have people attack him whether they want to or not, plus no penalty to being fearless (Thankyouthankyouthankyou); I am feeling quite happy.

I am disappointed by the Talos being able to be wounded by S3, but when they most often died to lascannons it didn't come up much, and now killing tanks with them will be a dawdle.

Since I played a relatively slow army (coven) anyway, with the potential 12" charge now, I'm doing slightly better. And I can still enact my plan of Raider/Grot bombs.

The Talos can't be wounded by Str 3.
It's still T7, and Str 3 can still only wound T5/6

Oooh goody, well that is good, I am happy to have misread that

Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing got a ton better. That's an upside. And by strong, I mean, light you up strong.

Talk about a fun list:

Razowing Jetfighter x 6

Everything else....

Hello, 24 missiles.....

drakkenj wrote:Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing got a ton better. That's an upside. And by strong, I mean, light you up strong.

Talk about a fun list:

Razowing Jetfighter x 6

Everything else....

Hello, 24 missiles.....

They lose Aerial Assault, and cannot hover (so must move a minimum of 18" a turn) so can only fire 4 weapons at full BS a turn ( remainder at BS1 )
So they can fire the 4 missiles at full BS then snapshot the rest.
Just so you know...

Ovion wrote:

drakkenj wrote:Voidraven Bomber and Razorwing got a ton better. That's an upside. And by strong, I mean, light you up strong.

Talk about a fun list:

Razowing Jetfighter x 6

Everything else....

Hello, 24 missiles.....

They lose Aerial Assault, and cannot hover (so must move a minimum of 18" a turn) so can only fire 4 weapons at full BS a turn ( remainder at BS1 )
So they can fire the 4 missiles at full BS then snapshot the rest.
Just so you know...

Yep, you fire 4x Missiles and 2x Lances in Snap Shot. Next turn you've only got 2x lances anyway. And you're moving 18" or 36".

Or you could 2x Lances, 2x Missiles, and save the rest for another turn. Still a devastating amount of firepower that you can drop on the battlefield. If each jet drops 2x missiles or 4x missiles.

Since the stock missiles are pie plates anyway, I'd use the full BS on the two lances and two missiles and then snap the last two missiles. This is even more true if you have changed out the lances for disintegrators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal list hasn't really changed much. At 1400 points I only had 1 unit of wyches as a counter assault unit anyway. Now, to bring up the points its going to be a unit of Incubi with Klaivex w/demiklaves and Drazhar

Who else is thinking that the default Haemi in 5th ed wych squads will be doing a lot of solo charges to absorb Overwatch in 6th? That way the wyches can get in unscathed? (Leaving pain token with the wyches of course)

Does anyone think that will work ? In movement phase get 2.1 inches away from your unit with haemi. Then in assault haemi goes in first and alone.. enemy unit either overwatches him down or waits and hopes haemi does not make it in.

Viable tactic? Poke holes.... GO

That will all depend if you get to pick and choose which unit overwatch fires onto. If they have to fire into the first unit that charges then sending in the sacrifical lamb should work.You could also just keep the hami in the unit but out front. As he has two wounds, he should be able to absorb most of the incoming fire. It also wont matter that the hami doesn't have fleet too much anymore, since fleet doesn't do much of anything anyway. Reroll is nice, but if you start close enough, it wont matter that much.

Jayden63 wrote:

Archon with huskblade, soul trap, blast pistol, shadowfield will be a beast in challenges and only get better as the game moves on.

but huskblades are AP3, and everyone is going to be giving their chars 2+ saves


Automatically Appended Next Post:

acsmedic wrote:Who else is thinking that the default Haemi in 5th ed wych squads will be doing a lot of solo charges to absorb Overwatch in 6th? That way the wyches can get in unscathed? (Leaving pain token with the wyches of course)

Does anyone think that will work ? In movement phase get 2.1 inches away from your unit with haemi. Then in assault haemi goes in first and alone.. enemy unit either overwatches him down or waits and hopes haemi does not make it in.

Viable tactic? Poke holes.... GO

sounds good actually


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:
My personal list hasn't really changed much. At 1400 points I only had 1 unit of wyches as a counter assault unit anyway. Now, to bring up the points its going to be a unit of Incubi with Klaivex w/demiklaves and Drazhar

Drazhar is a BEAAST now. I am still not sure if he can challenge, and then get out of the challenge but it sounds like it. He can dance around powerfists and axes or just murder them.

DE are very well off in 6th.

First of all DE vehicles got better... not worse, unless loosing our last hull point a glance cant kill us.

Night fighting will come into effect more often.

We can ally with eldar meaning we have access to one of the best psyker shut downs in the game.

If you want your wyches to avoid overwatch, declare a charge with a tougher unit like wracks(or grotesques) first, the charged unit has to fire at them(even if they are like 12" away and the wyches are like 6" away) , then charge in with the wyches.

FNP is worse, but better against PW and other things that used to ignore it.

If you are worried about turn 1, take a skyshield, 4+ invul save while on the pad, hmmm I wonder how many raiders I can fit onto it.

Razorwings are still good, and the bomber makes sense now.

As I said before, beasts are really good. Also anything with multiple shots is as well, scourge, and hellions, they have lots of shots on the move and lots of shots on the charge.

One of the -biggest- changes to the game is that units can regroup if at 25%... (if less then only on snake eyes)
- there is no longer a restriction for nearby enemy!
- units with an independent character always regroup at their base LD

this is hugely important, because of our high initiative we can more then likely break from an assault safely and as we run we are still a threat to the enemy, no longer will a depleted unit be useless. To make the most of this you can build your units in multiples of 4 to take advantage.

Anyhow, I could go, on and on and on. But I am very optimistic about the power of DE in the new edition.

Exergy wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

Archon with huskblade, soul trap, blast pistol, shadowfield will be a beast in challenges and only get better as the game moves on.

but huskblades are AP3, and everyone is going to be giving their chars 2+ saves


/quote]

Yeah, but anyone can roll a 1. And since my 2++ above is invunerable it will be a race to see who rolls a one first.

I had another thought. Modeling for advantage. Succubus, Heckitrix can take a power weapon as a weapon upgrade. If you model it to look like an axe, why could you not call it a power axe. I don't see anything stopping this. Thus gaining +1 Str (effectively the same as an agonizer against T4 and since we seem to be mostly concerned about termis here, its a wash), AP 2 which is what everyone is clamoring about, but gain unwieldly. So yeah, the model is striking at the same time as the terminator. But at least you are damaging them and leaving them with the Inv. to save their butts.

Iago wrote:Beasts are awesome, with grenades now. And we now purchase night shields instead of flicker

Beasts are indeed awesome. THey dont have grenades but the baron can keep up with them now and he has a PGL.
PGLs are good, they give defensive grenades which now gives you stealth if within 8" of the shooting unit. The baron already has stealth, but i wonder if that will give you +2?


I already took night shields so now I am losing the flicker field.
now sure how the nightfigting rules work with the 5+ jink save, but can it become 4+ or 3+ depending on distance? or is it always 5+ and thus having stealth makes no difference.
Venoms, already nerfed by the 2 hull points, have to pay for their flicker fields stock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:
I had another thought. Modeling for advantage. Succubus, Heckitrix can take a power weapon as a weapon upgrade. If you model it to look like an axe, why could you not call it a power axe. I don't see anything stopping this. Thus gaining +1 Str (effectively the same as an agonizer against T4 and since we seem to be mostly concerned about termis here, its a wash), AP 2 which is what everyone is clamoring about, but gain unwieldly. So yeah, the model is striking at the same time as the terminator. But at least you are damaging them and leaving them with the Inv. to save their butts.

Thats not modeling for advantage, you are supposed to do that. You are supposed to go out and buy a bunch of axes to convert all your old models. I already have 2, with "halberds."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The flyers obviously got much much better. The razorwing is now an almost autotake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I havent seen this mentioned, but the strength of the hit caused by "Vehicle Explodes" went from 3 to 4 for open topped vehciles. That is a nerf for DE as we will now lose 33% more models to explosions, and with the FNP nerf almost double

What's the word on assaulting out of Webway Portals?

catharsix wrote:What's the word on assaulting out of Webway Portals?

you cant

Iago wrote:DE are very well off in 6th.

First of all DE vehicles got better... not worse, unless loosing our last hull point a glance cant kill us.

Raiders are exactly 1/2 as resilient as they were, venoms are 1/3 as resilient. Str4 hits don't need to roll 2 6's in a row.

Night fighting will come into effect more often.

We can ally with eldar meaning we have access to one of the best psyker shut downs in the game.

If you want your wyches to avoid overwatch, declare a charge with a tougher unit like wracks(or grotesques) first, the charged unit has to fire at them(even if they are like 12" away and the wyches are like 6" away) , then charge in with the wyches.

FNP is worse, but better against PW and other things that used to ignore it.

If you are worried about turn 1, take a skyshield, 4+ invul save while on the pad, hmmm I wonder how many raiders I can fit onto it.

I would say between 6 and 8 if you really pack it in, but frankly I'd rather take the fortress for them to outright hide behind, no Line of Sight = no shots at them.

Razorwings are still good, and the bomber makes sense now.

As I said before, beasts are really good. Also anything with multiple shots is as well, scourge, and hellions, they have lots of shots on the move and lots of shots on the charge.

One of the -biggest- changes to the game is that units can regroup if at 25%... (if less then only on snake eyes)
- there is no longer a restriction for nearby enemy!
- units with an independent character always regroup at their base LD

this is hugely important, because of our high initiative we can more then likely break from an assault safely and as we run we are still a threat to the enemy, no longer will a depleted unit be useless. To make the most of this you can build your units in multiples of 4 to take advantage.

Anyhow, I could go, on and on and on. But I am very optimistic about the power of DE in the new edition.

The main problems for me are that you can't assault out of reserves and you can't put more than 50% of the army into reserve. They could have fixed it by allowing you to assault out of the Webway, but you can't, meaning everyone with wwp lists has put a reasonable amount of money and time into their army now has a force that can't really work, as you can't put the same number of units into reserve and when you do come in out of reserve, your units get to wait around for a turn and get shot at while the enemy moves away from your assaulty troops.

So basically, anyone with a shooty list is fine, anyone with anything with a bit more flavour has taken something of a hit, and anyone running a Webway Portal Army needs to remake their list(s) from the ground up.

To be honest, I haven't had a problem with anything else about 6th so far, and to be fair, if you could assault out of the webway (and bring battle brother allies through it... but hey) then I'd be fine, but as it is - a lot of time and money (webway portals, additional grotesques and wracks) are now pretty unusable.

Ovion wrote:
The main problems for me are that you can't assault out of reserves and you can't put more than 50% of the army into reserve. They could have fixed it by allowing you to assault out of the Webway, but you can't, meaning everyone with wwp lists has put a reasonable amount of money and time into their army now has a force that can't really work, as you can't put the same number of units into reserve and when you do come in out of reserve, your units get to wait around for a turn and get shot at while the enemy moves away from your assaulty troops.

So basically, anyone with a shooty list is fine, anyone with anything with a bit more flavour has taken something of a hit, and anyone running a Webway Portal Army needs to remake their list(s) from the ground up.

To be honest, I haven't had a problem with anything else about 6th so far, and to be fair, if you could assault out of the webway (and bring battle brother allies through it... but hey) then I'd be fine, but as it is - a lot of time and money (webway portals, additional grotesques and wracks) are now pretty unusable.

This. As pissed as I am with the treatment DE got, it's doubly maddening just how easy it would have been to make them work without being overpowered.

1-) Give some sargeant-equivalents the option of a fast AP2 weapon. Other armies have the toughness and the saves to last in combat. Dark Eldar need to have a strong fast punch to think out the enemy or they -will- get pulped right afterward. If the Agonizer was AP 2 and normal (hell, even HALF) initiative, I'd be plenty happy. But no, Space Marine captains felt want to put on a 2+ armor and smack xenos around without fear of ever losing their saves, so there we go. When you remember that Space Marines all but swim in 4+ and 3+ invulnerable saves, it gets extra funny.

2-) The webway portal nerf makes no damn sense. DE are fast enough; if they're not going to get the assaut, they are better off zooming around the table. We don't even have that many shooty units that benefit that much from popping up close to their front-lines: even the Talos and Chronos are stronger in assault than in shooting and portals were one of the ways to make them feasible instead of vaped by lascannons as they trudged along the board.

3-) It just dawned on me that Archons, Succubi, Vext, Haemonculi and many other CC 'monsters' truly have no recourse against 2+ armor.

It's pretty simple really..

Which codexes can spam 2+ saves like there's no tomorrow?

Which codexes are the only ones in the game with thunderhammers, chain fists et al..

SM

Riddle answered. Gods forbid that the SM would have to strain themselves or risk injury.

I'll still play my DE, but those 2+ saves are going to be a pain.

DE went from being a decent fast assualt army to a mediocre shooting army.

Note Beasts dont need Granades ... they flat out ignore Terrain.

You can still assault from Open topped vehicles.

Wytches never killed Termies with Power Weapons. You did it by doing 40 wounds on a Charge.

Your shooting got better ...

You have some pretty strong allies.

Your Lances are still the same and your other tank killer abilities are better.

FNP was way too powerful where it was and so was cover. They were put right where they need to be.

Ascalam wrote:It's pretty simple really..

Which codexes can spam 2+ saves like there's no tomorrow?

Which codexes are the only ones in the game with thunderhammers, chain fists et al..

SM

Riddle answered. Gods forbid that the SM would have to strain themselves or risk injury.

I'll still play my DE, but those 2+ saves are going to be a pain.

DE went from being a decent fast assualt army to a mediocre shooting army.

the proble\m is not the 2+ save squads its the 3+ squads with 2+ saves in them. Every SW grey hunter squad is now going to have a wolfguard in terminator armor in it. It will be worthless to have a power sword or agonizer in your squad of wyches because the wolf guard will simply challenge you, either you use your 40+ point seargent to attack uselessly against 2+ armor or you simply dont fight. Artificer armor and Chaos armor are going to be similarly problematic. And Necrons, who are supposed to be a slow race, get war scythes at full init?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyrs13 wrote:Note Beasts dont need Granades ... they flat out ignore Terrain.

You have some pretty strong allies.

they ignore terrain, but if any model passed through terrain they strike at i1, even if they ignored that terrain.

DE have only one ally that is not a grudging strained allience, eldar.

Eldar are awesome though.

More so last edition