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I always fail my leadership tests, always, its not fair

sLeEpYrOcK wrote:
I always fail my leadership tests, always, its not fair

bundle up on pain tokens until you are fearless

A quick question for all of you find folks.

Has anyone ever run a webway portal and a squad of 20 warriors behind enemy lines? Does it work?

I haven't personally tried it, but it seems that the new easier reserves rolls make a wwp perform worse. Unless you drop it on your first turn, there's going to be a 2/3 chance per squad you don't get to use it.

Team with eldars and get an autarch. Runne them with grotesques and ad a haemonculy to the dark eldar warrior squads. Now you have a whole lott of wounds. I would probably run this with flyers and not so mutch else.

Mimete wrote:
I haven't personally tried it, but it seems that the new easier reserves rolls make a wwp perform worse. Unless you drop it on your first turn, there's going to be a 2/3 chance per squad you don't get to use it.

And there is no way i can think of to drop it on turn one further than 6'' from your deployment zone. Turn 2 yeas, if you don't mind losing an HQ and a fast as hell transport (or a Sliscus DS'ing one) to get him there, but odds are the reserves you want coming in will be plodding in from your board edge by then.

WWP are pretty much useless these days. They were spendy but useful in 5th.

 Ascalam wrote:

Mimete wrote:
I haven't personally tried it, but it seems that the new easier reserves rolls make a wwp perform worse. Unless you drop it on your first turn, there's going to be a 2/3 chance per squad you don't get to use it.

And there is no way i can think of to drop it on turn one further than 6'' from your deployment zone. Turn 2 yeas, if you don't mind losing an HQ and a fast as hell transport (or a Sliscus DS'ing one) to get him there, but odds are the reserves you want coming in will be plodding in from your board edge by then.

WWP are pretty much useless these days. They were spendy but useful in 5th.

I can think of a way to get it over 12"-15" from the deployment zone.
You deploy your transport at the deployment line
Move transport 6"
Troops get out 6"
Drop WWP in Base Contact with carrier
Close edge is 12" from deployment zone, far edge is 15" from deployment zone
Turn 2+, Troops can get out and move 6" from the WWP, putting them within 18"-21" from the deployment zone.
That's 30"-33" from the board edge. in standard straight-line deployment.

The problem for me is of course - no assault. So I rush in, drop my Webway Portals ready for my coven to come through - the enemy moves away.
My nice plodding flesh fiends are now playing catchup, instead of being able to get into combat...
I'll try a WWP list soon though... Eldar Allies with an Autarch, some Storm Guardians in a Wave Serpent and a Wraithlord, along with 3 Venoms containing Haemonculi and Wracks... should give me up 13 units I can deploy in the webway ( 3 Talos, 3 squads of Grotesques and 3 Squads of Wracks are 9, so I can do it the list at least )

Who knows how it'll do... probably poorly, we'll see.

OK 12'' then

If i wasn't so tired i would have spotted that i put 6.

The enemy D-zone is right out though.

I ran an all-coven WWP list in 5th, and i miss it. 6th's rules pretty much nix most of the ways the codex writer intended DE to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It can still work, sort of, but it's a pale shadow of it's former usefulness, especially at 35 pts a portal.

If you could assault out of them, I'd still use them. Now, I just put everyone in transports. :(

Yeah - if they'd have said something like 'Units deploying from Webway Portal are treated as disembarking from an Open-Topped vehicle, that'd be great - and they'd be usable as intended.
Sucks doesn't it.

Because I'm mildly bored, I made these:
_________________Dawn of War___________________________________Hammer and Anvil_________________________________Vanguard Strike_________________
__
These show the turn 1 Deployment Zones for a WWP.
In these diagrams, the 3 pronged Dark Blue Triangle is a Raider, the first Arrow is its movement, the second arrow the unit insides deployment, the Blue Circle is the Webway Portal Marker.
The Red Arrows (and circle under it) are the standard 6" move of units coming out of the portal. (Of course other unit types will be able to move further)
The first band (that ends in line with the far edge of the Blue WWP marker) shows the area in your deployment zone you'll be able to drop your WWP.
The second band shows the max distance 'standard' troops will be able to deploy from it. (In straight line from where the WWP was deployed.)

Thanks, Ovion!

Avid fan of DE here. Just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone for contributing to this forum, it has been very helpful to me so far. I live in NJ and have been without power for almost two weeks now thanks to the storm that decimated the north east and one of the things I have done to stave off the boredom is crack open my codex and number crunch and study. Thanks to my job (there now, work at a comic book store ) and lovely girlfriend (who lives five mins from my store) I have had access to electricity and therefore this forum which has helped me make some tough decisions, reaffirmed some strategies I had, helped rethink other strategies I had in 5th, the list goes on.

At the risk of sounding redundant I am going to offer my opinions on what I have read thus far. While I do agree with many of the people who are griping about 6th changing how the DE were meant to be played (less powerful assault and alpha strike for a very assault themed race both fluff wise and game wise etc etc) I also agree with the sentiment that it just means we have to grin, bear it, and adapt our play style. The meta shift in 6th to more infantry based army lists I feel is a boon not a hindrance to DE because I feel DE excel at anti infantry more than anti armor. Being a DE player in 5th was rough at times since one of my friends who I play with fields IG. Even with him trying not to cheese out since we play for fun casually I still found it difficult to deal with his list since IG's strong point (one of them anyway) is their armored division. Since switching to a more shooty based army in 6th I have had a good deal of success so far at my FLGS and my DE are making the group I play with take heed especially now that I have transitioned my wyches role to being anti armor assault MSU's.

Overall DE are still a great army, but just like before 6th they are an army that requires a good grasp of the game's mechanics and strategy to do well with. Even in a casual setting DE are almost always a blowout army, either you curb stomp them or they curb stomp you, very rare is it an even, tit-for-tat kind of game with them involved which means the victories can feel great but the defeats can be rather discouraging. That being said, though I would not recommend everyone get into 40k with them as your first army like I did I am still glad I chose them as my first, it has forced me to become a better player quicker than I might have otherwise and fluff wise I find them to be the coolest thing in the 40k universe.

Just my two cents worth from personal experience, reaver jet bikes are amazing whether they are a 3-man bladevane nuisance or a six+ deathstar. Also, thanks to this forum I have discovered how amazing Baron is as an HQ. Just wanted everyone's thoughts on putting him with scourges? Of all my models I am the most proud of the paint job on my scourges yet I have had trouble in the past justifying running them due to their relative fragility and high point cost. I recently tried them as a five man with two dark lances with Baron attached to give them a 3+ cover in ruins to great success, and the hit-and-run and defensive grenades Baron gives them allowed them to survive an Incubi assault, break away and exact revenge by shooting the Incubi to death the next turn.

Your thoughts?

If I were running scourges, it'd be 5 man, two splinter cannons.

Using the baron with them is an interesting take, something I hadn't thought of and may just have to try in the future. But yeah, you pay out the ass for those shardcarbines and don't get a points discount for further upgrades. Which is silly beyond belief but I digress. You want to be shooting those shardcarbines, putting out as many wounds as possible. All of the AT options for scourges conflict with this, and you can't spam them with scourges. Two per five just isn't enough firepower to reliably kill tanks. You can annoy tanks with haywire blasters, I'd rather just throw the splinter cannons in there to make them really really fething good at killing infantry. Keep them focused and they can absolutely maul infantry units. The splinter pods on Baron's skyboard help with this as well, he contributes firepower to the unit.

There's actually a good deal of synergy here that I hadn't previously thought of.

A warrior blob experiment goes horribly wrong as I desperately search for the solution to winning Dark Eldar Mirror match-ups. Battle report bellow (pictures as usual).

BR14: The Black Buzzards VS DE The Sky Serpen - 1500pts

Warrior blobs seem to be able to take a real beating if they have a good cover save, however due to their static nature they force you to split your forces.

Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?

@Lokas

Agree with almost everything there, but I would not bother with the Splinter Cannons. The high cost of the uprgrade, for me, makes the unit too costly for it's vulnerability. Five shardcarbines can harrass enemy infantry whilst keeping in relative cover, and in my experience, tend to not draw fire as other, more threatening targets, approach them enemy. This mistake can be quite costly for the enemy.

@Mushkilla

Nice batrep. Personally, I would have put Haemonculi in the Warrior blobs - I think it would have mitigated your losses a fair bit,.

 Mushkilla wrote:
A warrior blob experiment goes horribly wrong as I desperately search for the solution to winning Dark Eldar Mirror match-ups. Battle report bellow (pictures as usual).

BR14: The Black Buzzards VS DE The Sky Serpen - 1500pts

Warrior blobs seem to be able to take a real beating if they have a good cover save, however due to their static nature they force you to split your forces.

Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?

I haven't had too much experience, but a haemy would reduce their losses, hopefully, buy a bit, and IMO dark lances aren't that good in warrior squads, maybe next time use splinter cannons and/or shredders, as str 6 blast weapons can still take out a raider, ravager and insta-kill most DE squads, love your batreps, especially your civil war ones, much insight into out own weaknesses, and I still chuckle whenever refers to an AV 11 ravager 'armour'.

 htj wrote:
@Lokas

Agree with almost everything there, but I would not bother with the Splinter Cannons. The high cost of the uprgrade, for me, makes the unit too costly for it's vulnerability. Five shardcarbines can harrass enemy infantry whilst keeping in relative cover, and in my experience, tend to not draw fire as other, more threatening targets, approach them enemy. This mistake can be quite costly for the enemy.

See, I partially agree with you there. I pondered a lot about the upgrades for Scourges, but in the end it wasn't the extra shots of the splinter cannons that made me decide they were worth taking. It was the range.

There are certain situations you just do not want to be within 18 inches of the enemy. You don't have enough local forces to overwhelm your enemy with target saturation, you're facing fast-moving assault units, there's lots of mechanized forces on the field, etcetera, etcetera. The points you spend on the splinter cannons give you the flexibility to have a much wider threat range, and this is a massive defensive boon for Scourges because it limits the number of units that can fire back. And you can still bound into their shardcarbine range to totally wipe out depleted units, or when the situation calls for it, but you also can hang back and keep your unit more reliably alive. I know it seems a bit silly to pour more points into an already overpriced unit to make the most of it, but really, the extra points for the splinter cannons makes them so much more durable because you don't have to throw them into bad situations because of their short range or face the alternative of just not shooting at all.

 Lokas wrote:

 htj wrote:
@Lokas

Agree with almost everything there, but I would not bother with the Splinter Cannons. The high cost of the uprgrade, for me, makes the unit too costly for it's vulnerability. Five shardcarbines can harrass enemy infantry whilst keeping in relative cover, and in my experience, tend to not draw fire as other, more threatening targets, approach them enemy. This mistake can be quite costly for the enemy.

See, I partially agree with you there. I pondered a lot about the upgrades for Scourges, but in the end it wasn't the extra shots of the splinter cannons that made me decide they were worth taking. It was the range.

There are certain situations you just do not want to be within 18 inches of the enemy. You don't have enough local forces to overwhelm your enemy with target saturation, you're facing fast-moving assault units, there's lots of mechanized forces on the field, etcetera, etcetera. The points you spend on the splinter cannons give you the flexibility to have a much wider threat range, and this is a massive defensive boon for Scourges because it limits the number of units that can fire back. And you can still bound into their shardcarbine range to totally wipe out depleted units, or when the situation calls for it, but you also can hang back and keep your unit more reliably alive. I know it seems a bit silly to pour more points into an already overpriced unit to make the most of it, but really, the extra points for the splinter cannons makes them so much more durable because you don't have to throw them into bad situations because of their short range or face the alternative of just not shooting at all.

Hmm, interesting thought. My main problem with that is, yes, the points cost for having a unit that only firing from two models - but that's not to say that I don't see the merit there. It's a nice way to add in some extra AI firepower from a flexible and mobile position - one that's arguably tougher than, say, a venom. I might have to give it a try at some point, see how it works for me. As it stands, I've had a lot of use with naked Scourges popping around the back field hiding in cover and forcing the opponent to absorb the shardcarbine fire or to split his assault - this would be an interesting new way to use them.

 Mushkilla wrote:
Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?

Actually, yes, yes I have.

In my 1850 list, I run a warrior blob with 2 splinter cannons to great effect.

Looking at your list, I'd suggest you take the same route I do with them since your list and my list actually share a lot of common traits.

Take the duke as an HQ instead. You can deploy him with the warrior blob to make the entire mess a lot more deadly. I'd suggest taking splinter cannons to make the most of this, especially since you can put the splinter cannons in the second rank of a unit, move 6" forward and keep the splinter cannon guys totally still, just move the rest of the unit, and fire their 6 shots. Free turn of full strength shooting while moving forward. Sometimes you can get two turns of that before they're forced to move if you're clever. Now, when those splinter cannons are wounding on a 3+? That's really really bueno.

The duke would also benefit other elements of your army very well. Does army-wide feel no pain sound nice to you? I bet it does, and with the duke's reroll on the drug table, it's totally plausible. Even if you want the duke to go off and assault with the wyches, you can detach him from the warrior unit to join his harem and just leave the pain token with the Warriors for an ultra-durable blob. Your Reavers will have their pick of the drug crop and they will thank you for it.

That being said, I'd suggest only taking one warrior blob and keeping the rest of your troops mechanized. A warrior blob functions as a good anvil, durable as long as it's got cover or feel no pain and has enough wounds to deal with getting shot at for a few turns. Your rest of the army can function as the hammer, moving quickly to hit the enemy hard where they hide while your blob anchors down the flank and says 'Nope, no escape for you over here!'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 htj wrote:
Hmm, interesting thought. My main problem with that is, yes, the points cost for having a unit that only firing from two models - but that's not to say that I don't see the merit there. It's a nice way to add in some extra AI firepower from a flexible and mobile position - one that's arguably tougher than, say, a venom. I might have to give it a try at some point, see how it works for me. As it stands, I've had a lot of use with naked Scourges popping around the back field hiding in cover and forcing the opponent to absorb the shardcarbine fire or to split his assault - this would be an interesting new way to use them.

Oh, I hate having to back off and only fire 2 models. It sucks wasting your shardcarbines. But it's better than throwing them in, losing them all, or backing off and firing none.

I'll often deploy them on the tallest piece of terrain in my deployment zone to give them a good field of view and try to use their splinter cannons to full effect before either diving in with the rest of my assault to do their dirty deeds or redeploying defensively. It's worked well the few times I've fussed with scourges, which are arguably going to increase since the synergy with them and Sathy brought to my attention.

I can definitely see some merit in using them as backfield harassers though. Personally, I wouldn't want to, as I don't trust any kind of deep strike that doesn't have a way to reduce scatter or reroll it. That's just my personal call though, I can totally see it as a good strategy.

 Mushkilla wrote:
A warrior blob experiment goes horribly wrong as I desperately search for the solution to winning Dark Eldar Mirror match-ups. Battle report bellow (pictures as usual).

BR14: The Black Buzzards VS DE The Sky Serpen - 1500pts

Warrior blobs seem to be able to take a real beating if they have a good cover save, however due to their static nature they force you to split your forces.

Has anyone had any experience with them? Thoughts ideas?

Thank you very much for the data! I will take this into consideration!

 Lokas wrote:

Take the duke as an HQ instead.

Yeah, I should really give the duke a try.

So any tips against Tau Mechanised lists with their 3+ jink saves? And Tetras?

I had a game against them today and had a real tough time, to be frank I got Monta'Kaed. My list seems to suffer against armies that can spread out but are still mobile enough to concentrate their firepower. Here is the report (pictures as usual).

BR15: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mech - 1500pts

 Mushkilla wrote:
So any tips against Tau Mechanised lists with their 3+ jink saves? And Tetras?

I had a game against them today and had a real tough time, to be frank I got Monta'Kaed. My list seems to suffer against armies that can spread out but are still mobile enough to concentrate their firepower. Here is the report (pictures as usual).

BR15: The Black Buzzards VS Tau Mech - 1500pts

One thing you may want to consider. If you're up against a mobile army that 'can' move to concentrate their firepower, you can still spread him out, and out-maneuver him. You castled up to begin with, when you could have hidden your reavers on the other end of the table, then turbo boosted back toward the rest of your forces, leaving 1/3 of his army out of range maybe if he moves to engage the reavers.

Also, as you suggested, dropping some of the reavers would probably be a good idea. I don't ever run any army over 1.5k without all 3 heavy slots filled. Half your army in jetbikes limits you on a lot of things. For all the good they do, they're expensive and eat points.

I just wanted to come on this post as I'm starting up 40k after a long break, and Im wanting to start up a DE army, Im not sure what units i should be buying etc. but I'll have about £120 to spend at the start, and will be obviously using discount stores.
I'm looking for a 750 pt army with that kind of money, but if it would have to be stretched then i wouldnt mind just getting a good core and building up to 750 later.
THANKYOU

It depends on what you want really.

I say start with the Codex and probably the Battleforce, a Venom, an Archon -or- Haemonculi and a Ravager -or- Razorwing - this will give you a solid starting force, in that points range and give you a decent spread of models to play with.

Certainly start with the codex though!

Ok thankyou. Where would you go after that? I mean i like the idea of Infantry, and the Elite infantry from DE is really cool.

And what are the differences with Archon and Haemonculus?

Thanks again

An Archon is a combat beasty, that boosts things like Incubi, Wyches and such.

The Haem is a cheap and cheerful HQ that has some fun toys, unlocks Wracks as troops and gives a unit a Pain Token.

I think really, as to where to go from there - that's up to you.
The big thing here is definately getting your hands on the codex.

The only things you really want to avoid are Mandrakes, I think pretty much everything else in the codex is at least reasonably useful and relatively decent.
Obviously some things do certain things better, but Mandrakes are almost universally awful, being too expensive for what they do (which is a shame, because I loved the original models and background, and thing the new models and fluff is awesome.)

Ok well I guess I'll choose the HQ when I understand a little more.

I'll go pick up a codex tomorrow.

But as i have no experience of 40k its all new to me.

I wouldnt know what to go with after what youve said.

But I definitily Like infantry unites and things like scourges hellions and reavers. as well as Incubi and Wracks aswell as the troupe. What advice would you have to give about what to go based on what ive said?

But i see a lot of lists with just a mass of venoms

That's because venoms are insanely effective and redundancy is important in any list, even a fluffernutter list.

If you want a foot DE list, I'd suggest looking around for NOVA tournament info. There was some player there (whose name escapes me at the moment) who placed very well there with a primarily foot list if memory serves me correctly. That would be a good jumping off point for a primarily foot list if you don't want to do a mass of venoms.

Personally, I love the aesthetic of a massive fleet of elegant skimmers, it's what drew me to the army to begin with.

 Joel1 wrote:
Ok well I guess I'll choose the HQ when I understand a little more.

I'll go pick up a codex tomorrow.

But as i have no experience of 40k its all new to me.

I wouldnt know what to go with after what youve said.

But I definitily Like infantry unites and things like scourges hellions and reavers. as well as Incubi and Wracks aswell as the troupe. What advice would you have to give about what to go based on what ive said?

But i see a lot of lists with just a mass of venoms

Just venom lists I think are boring too - I like a mix.
From what you've said - definately go with a HQ + a Battleforce or two + 1-2 Venoms (50/50 split of Raiders / Venoms ), then probably choose an Elites unit and Heavy Support unit to add flavour.