Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Has anyone tried mandrake heavy lists? I know it seems like a waste but if you deploy them standard a joined IC could really boost them.

a guy at my club runs 30 of them and decapitator in every list. It is embarrassing. No they are never good.

They do make the best looking corpses on the battlefield though..

Gorgeous models, but the rules...yeahno.

It just sucks because in the original codex they were amazing for me. I get to march up untouched and pick one of three locations, double tap my pistols if positioned well and assault... 10 used to give me 50 s3 attacks out of thin air, I actually hate the new theme (well not hate simply prefer the old one). Too me they were bad asses when they were basically considered serial murderers by dark eldar standards, that's saying something.

I knew it was a bad question when right after I posted it I remember oh yea, harlequins, literally better in EVERY aspect and fit my original theme ha ha.

 Ascalam wrote:

not being able to assault from a WWP also killed the Talos's best tactic, popping out from a wwp and wrecking face. They can still pop out and shoot, but will die the next turn before they can get into CC. They are only 3 wound beasts, with 3+ armour, and can be taken down by bolters, let alone heavy weapons fire.

I really don't get this. Not being able to assault out of portals, it hasn't really changed anything.You can't use wyches out of a portal that's about all it's changed and it's not like your opponent kindly waited around the portal to get assaulted by wyches anyway. Reavers can blade vane or shoot, warriors/scourges want to be shooting and wracks are going to be coming on to score. As for talos who in their right mind would have got within 12" of a webway portal that had a talos in it last edition? No one. Taking liquifiers on the talos carries on that tradition, because no sane general would risk leaving his infantry anywhere within 12-14" near of a potential liquifier alpha strike. The only difference is that your opponent might be willing to risk his transports and tanks nearer the portal as the talos can't rip them up on the turn it comes in (but god help you if that talos is still standing next turn). Again having blasters coming out of the portal should dissuade this, if that transport goes the contents will be asking to be tear-drop liquified. You need a mixture of threats coming out the portal to get the most out of it.

The WWP is similar to proper Talos use in this respect, it's about projecting "fear" and using that "fear" to deny part of the board to your opponent. What if his blaster born come out and take out my land raider, what if his talos rolls a 3 on his liquifiers and take out half my assault marines, etc. If your opponent comes near a portal he has to be aware you are playing on home ground and you will get the jump on anything that enters portal territory.

The webway portal still has it's uses. I think the biggest misunderstanding of it comes from thinking that it's used to get units without transports further up field, this is wrong.

If you consider the safest way to deploy a webway portal: a big units of grotesques or harlequins deployed centrally on the board 12" in, then you get 12"+6"+3"+6" = 27" into the board now if you come in on turn 2 that put's you 3" further in than if you just deployed 12" in and moved 6" for two turns, and you can't charge. So the movement advantage is not the main reason for using the webway portal as it is unreliable at best.

What the webway portal does do, is protect units for 1-2 turns and removes the disadvantage of going second, as units coming out of the portal always get their shots in first. In fact going second is how the portal should be played as that way your units can avoid more of his shooting as even if you come in on turn 2 your opponent will miss two turns of shooting!

Uses:

1. Keeping small scoring units safe. Why spend points on larger units of troops when you can use smaller ones that will be just as effective as they will be immune to shooting for the first 1-2 turns.
2. Preventing fragile units from giving up first blood.
3. Increasing the threat range of blaster units coming in from reserve. Your opponent will think twice if anything within 30" of the portal could potentially be threatened by blasters mounted on reavers/scourges.
4. Delay anti infantry units until they are needed. Against a mechanised opponent they might not have anything to shoot at on the first turn, however by the time they come in from the portal a portion of the opponents armies will be demechanised.
5. Board control, the webway portal creates a bubble of potential threats around the centre of the board that will make your opponent think twice before commiting his forces, this is a fantastic edge in an objective based game.
6. Reducing the number of turns your opponent has to take out a threat. Three Talos marching across the board is intimidating. Three talos that may or may not appear in the centre of the board create a massive fear factor due to their liquifiers and splinter cannons. What's worse is they will be coming on at full wounds and potentially snap up a few pain tokens with their splinter/liquifier shooting when they come in (getting FNP). What makes this so much worse is rather than having 6 turns to deal with three talos your opponent now has 3-4 turns (if you are going second even if you come in on turn 2 your opponent will miss two turns of shooting!).

It's these strengths that make the Webway Portal a cheap investment all things considered, it guarantees that units coming on form reserve will be at full strength and appear in a central position on the board, it denies at least two turns of your enemies shooting against the units in reserve (As you want to go second with a WWP army). Finally it guarantees that the units in reserve get their "Alpha Strike".

If you want to play a Dark Eldar army that doesn't depend on going first then the webway portal is a solid option. Just don't do anything fancy and use a solid foot unit to deploy it.

Hope that helps people who still want to use the WWP in 6th.

Yeah, you don't get it You don't GIVE them the option of not being in range of the portal. You drop several of them in his endzone Not really doable these days.

Back in 5th, you could drop a WWP, and be pretty sure that a Talos could move out of it at full move, shoot, then plow into a unit and assault it, without getting shot to death in the process.

No-one is afraid of Taloi these days. They can be boltered down, only have 3 wounds and are ONLY good in CC. You never see them on a table for a reason.

WWP's still have a use, but now you have to be sure to get them into postion turn 1 (with a greatly reduced range to do this due to the new rules for disembarking fast vehicles) before the Talos is forced to walk in from your board edge, and die...

If you can somehow make WWP work, and miraculously not roll your reserves in while you are getting it anywhere useful, more power to you.

If your reserves come in before your WWP is deployed, your WWP is just a box with a button on it.

So i have been thinking about 10 warriors in a raider. One of them has a venom cannon. What i am torn as to what is good to give the rest. A shredder for one person (short range) or give the boat a splinter rack? What do you think?

Splinter rack. The Shredder is very rarely useful. DE need a large volume of hits and the racks help you with that. Sure, it'll be gone when the Raider explodes (which it will) but if the squad inside has the purpose of shooting quick and often, anything that helps them is important.

I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)

 Niiai wrote:
I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)

That's almost exactly the list I'm planning on except I want to run 3 units of 3 reavers in stead of the beasts and I would run the duke in a raider instead of the baron.

 Ascalam wrote:

No-one is afraid of Taloi these days. They can be boltered down, only have 3 wounds and are ONLY good in CC. You never see them on a table for a reason.

They got a whole load of buffs, like benefiting from area terrain cover saves, only needing to be 25% obscured to get a cover save, random charge range (greater potential threat), FNP working against AP1-2 weapons, smash attack, impact hits, scoring in 1/6 missions, the list goes on. At the end of the day they are a very cheap and resilient MC who's only downfall is that it competes with ravagers for heavy support slots.

As for being only good in CC I completely disagree with that, the talos is effective even without reaching combat as it draws fire away from the rest of your army. Give it a twin-linked liquifier and a twin linked splinter cannon and it can tear through infantry in the shooting phase, those cannons are perfect for snatching up pain tokens to boot.

 Ascalam wrote:

WWP's still have a use, but now you have to be sure to get them into postion turn 1 (with a greatly reduced range to do this due to the new rules for disembarking fast vehicles) before the Talos is forced to walk in from your board edge, and die...

Why wouldn't you deploy your portal turn 1?

 Ascalam wrote:

If you can somehow make WWP work, and miraculously not roll your reserves in while you are getting it anywhere useful, more power to you.

If your reserves come in before your WWP is deployed, your WWP is just a box with a button on it.

I don't think this version of the webway portal was ever meant to be used to "rush" your opponent, that's what raiders/venoms are for. In my opinion it's about protecting a bunch of units whilst creating board control and guaranteeing they will get their shots in first.

I think people got trapped trying to use the portal the way it was used in the old codex, basically a portal bomb that you charge into your opponents line and beat face out of. Now that's you can't prevent the units from coming in from reserve that tactic isn't reliable.

As for why I'm not a fan of mechanised portal delivery units:

1. You need first turn.
2. You need a fast fragile portal delivery unit, or two (large investment of points).
3. If you go second those delivery units will probably be out of position (as they are fragile and need to be hidden), so their bonus movement is often wasted.
4. It tends to be a lot of points to invest in a fragile unit who's only purpose is to deliver the portal (an then get shot off the board).

A foot units is survivable, won't give up first blood and can almost always be deployed centrally. And lets you plan to go second as you know they can shrug off a lot of fire power. They also tend to double up as a beat face assault unit (grotesques or harlequins) and would have been on foot anyway, so the cost of using the portal is 35pts. Not 170pts for a naked haemi and three wracks mounted in a venom who's only purpose is to set up a portal. Also with central deployment you only need one portal.

Grotesques are ideal being T5 and having FNP, deployed centrally in the open or preferably in some area terrain and they will do a good job (watch out for manticores). Or Harlequins with an archon in cover with veil of tears. Both are fantastic counter assault units that can withstand a lot of shooting.

The point wasn't that you have to deploy them 1st turn, it was that the 1st turn deployment range is dramatically shorter. To get them where i'd want them i'd have to put them down on turn 2, by which time they will have already arrived at the start of the turn. In 5th you could risk your units not coming in on turn 2 (4+ chance) and get the portal exactly where you wanted it if you lucked out, however. You could still try that, but on a 3+ it's not really worth it.

These days you can get them in about 12'' on turn 1 and still be able to deploy them turn 1. 6'' vehicle move, 6'' disembark.

In the old days you could get them in 12 '' (vehicle move, plus 2'' disembark, plus 6'' move = 20''. That's a whole turn's movement for the talos closer and more.


MC's have gained some neat tricks in 6th. I'm not denying that. Smash in particular has made the Cronos a whole lot better. They have lost some stuff too though.

Average charge range hasn't changed much. You do have the potential for a 12'' charge, true, but you also have the potential for a 2'' one.

Either way the Talos is still a fragile as hell MC, with few wounds and decent but not fantastic armour. It's really depressingly easy to take one down. I've had them die to snapshots just from entering combat with bog-ordinary tac marine squads. They can put out some decent anti-infantry firepower, especially when at very very short range, but one volley from a unit of long fangs or whatever and it's adios Talos. Odds are one volley from a tac squad will kill one before it can close enough to do any good.

Venoms and raiders aren't good for rushing the enemy any more either, as you can't disembark if you moved more than 6''. Sure, you can zoom up on one turn, then disembark the next, but they have lost a lot of rush-ability since 5th too.

Grotesques work well from WWP, as they can survive a turn of shooting before they close even with the reduced WWP distance.

I ran a cc-oriented all-coven list that worked well in 5th, but is turgid to play and far more fragile in 6th. FNP working on everything helps, but 5+ when your FNP is backing a 6+ save still results in more deaths on the whole. Taloi and Cronoi can only get FNP by killing a unit first, or from a Cronos. They have to survive long enough to do this, which is where i'm running into issues.

Sure, i can run an all-shooty kabalite list and wreck face with it. It thrills me about as much as a visit to the dentist. I got into the DE for the Coven stuff, and mono-coven is now pretty much futile.

A mixed list still works (harlies are pretty good, and Kabalite with haemy support can be effective) but a proper WWP delivered wrack/haemy/grotesque liquifier/assault list does not.


My views of course, YMMV I can adapt my forces and win, but the army ceases to be what drew me to the army in the first place.

Being able to keep a unit off the chopping block for a turn is useful-ish, assuming you can get the WWP somewhere tactically useful for turn 2, but you could get the same result for most units by giving them a raider and deep-striking it, or having them walk on, and hugging cover on turn 1.

Grotesques/Harlies are about the only assault units i would use with a WWP these days. Shooty stuff through a WWP still works, and i've been playing with scourges delivered that way.

 Ascalam wrote:


In the old days you could get them in 12 '' (vehicle move, plus 2'' disembark, plus 6'' move = 20''. That's a whole turn's movement for the talos closer and more.

Actually the difference between how far you can deploy the WWP out of a vehicle between this edition and 5th is about 2.5" not 8". Because in the last edition you couldn't move after you disembarked, if the vehicle moved.

5th, vehicle moves 12", you disembark 2", the base of your model only had to be just inside so less than an inch", so 14.5", rather than the 12" we have today. It does make a difference, but not that much. The problem is, even if all that was the same random assault ranges would make that gambit even more unreliable.

I'm actually still running a WWP however with my coven. Running two groups of grotesques, with Urien, Eldrad in group and haemonculi with the portal in another. Eldrad can get the 4++ and the ability to roll 3d6 for reserves, which gives me the durability to march up the field and the time to only place my portal in the second turn, rather than the first. However, without Eldrad I wouldn't run a WWP, because then I'd have to place it first turn, and I've gained only one turn's worth of my more fragile units not being shot

You're right, by thunder

I was misremembering the 5th ed rule.

I still run a full on coven list at home, once in a while, but i dont take my DE out nearly as much as i used to. My Orks get to go to tournaments etc, while i get my DE painted up and try to come up with a competitive list that actually interests me.

I'm not a fan of Allies, as a whole, either. I know i could ally up for more oomph, but it doesn't really fit for me. Lately i've been running a scourge-heavy wrack-intensive variant on my DE which i might expand to include a very few non-coven units, like the fliers (wrack pilots!) or Reavers (wrack converted riders )

So yes, i am handicapping myself for the sake of theme. I might have to take a look at building a non-pure coven army that wins games, and hope that this endears it to me, or my DE might become a painting/home game project for a few years.

I was poking through dakka the other day and came across Dark_Gear's blog (here, mid-page) and he had some interesting ideas on using the cronos for a force multiplier. I think it would go along well with what Mush was saying with the Talos and might be useable with a wwp. What do you guys think? It still has to earn it's pain tokens though, so Ascalam's point about them lasting long enough to actually be useful is a good one. Getting MC's a cover save is much easier though.

I've actually had decent luck with the Cronos lately. They tend to die if directly stomped on, but unlike the Cronos they are viewed as being trash units by a lot of opponents, which means they get ignored right up until they vape a unit and hand out Pain like candy. THEN they die, but they will have at least served a purpose.

Plus i love the models

 Ascalam wrote:
I've actually had decent luck with the Cronos lately. They tend to die if directly stomped on, but unlike the Cronos they are viewed as being trash units by a lot of opponents, which means they get ignored right up until they vape a unit and hand out Pain like candy. THEN they die, but they will have at least served a purpose.

Plus i love the models

"Sir. That monstrosity looks dangerous."
"Ignore the flying piece of meat for now, soldier. It is not a threat at all."
"Yes Sir."

*the cronos proceeds to rape, humiliate and completely obliterate an important squad* "PaaaIIin for ThE aRmYYyy..." *and throws around pain all over the dark eldar lines making everyone else more dangerous.*

"Um, Sir? It took out our veterans and the enemy got more ferocious."
"By the emperor. ALL GUNS, TAKE DOWN THE HOVERING MEATLOAF!"

Pretty much

What's even more hilarious is that the opponent's army will then get their minds wiped after the battle, because the same guys will forget the Cronos's doing that, or write it off as a fluke,

Its like the times my Flash Gitz just obliterate a full termie squad, but everyone KNOWS flash gitz are a junk squad no-one ever takes except in a themed list...

Just like the guy who just "forgot" how 2 bloodbrides, 4 wyches and a succubus obliterated his IG gunline in 6th ed. (that was all that was left when I got into close combat) It's the "it only happens once in a lifetime" attitude... which I exploit more often than anyone should.

Sounds like fun

I've had similar moments on occasion. I once had 2 wracks hold up a Triarch Stalker for a whole game in CC. It stomped on them, they made their save or FNP roll... Next turn...

 Ascalam wrote:
I've actually had decent luck with the Cronos lately. They tend to die if directly stomped on, but unlike the Cronos they are viewed as being trash units by a lot of opponents, which means they get ignored right up until they vape a unit and hand out Pain like candy. THEN they die, but they will have at least served a purpose.

Plus i love the models

I love using grotesques in that capacity. No one knows what they do really, just think that they are bad. If they ask I tell them they are AP- in combat, even the champion and they ease off till they wreck face.

Yeah, until you hit combat and go 'right, so that's 4 Str6 attacks for each grunt... then another 6 Str6 Poison 2+ attacks on the Ab, they don't seem to think they're that huge a threat.

 Ovion wrote:
Yeah, until you hit combat and go 'right, so that's 4 Str6 attacks for each grunt... then another 6 Str6 Poison 2+ attacks on the Ab, they don't seem to think they're that huge a threat.

lol, and with FC Ive multi assaulted two rhinos and a combat squad and exploded/wrecked the rhinos and beat the squad up and was safely locked in his turn

Hey guys. I'm looking into starting a DE army soon and I was wondering what would be some of the better buys.

I'm probably going to get 2 battleforces, then 2 venoms, a flyer (dont know which one yet), an Autarch, and then some flavor units. Probably a unit of Scourges and then some wracks or incubi for fun. Any suggestions on where to go? I've read through the codex and a gun boat hit and run style army sounds fun, as well as an assaulty army using lots of transports.

Autarch is regular Eldar, so you'd need an Archon unless you are planning on allies. HQ boss guy

There is only one flyer kit, the Razorwing. Most folk will be fine with you using it as either a Razorwing or a Voidraven.

Scourges are awesome models, and not bad in game if you se them right.

Incubi are spendy, and in game are a bit fragile. They can kick some butt though

Wracks are neat, but i don't like the GW models. I made my own

The fast assaulty army that half the codex was designed for got a stiff kick in the shorts. You can still do it. but it's not as good as it might be. Gunboat hit and run still works.

Autarch Archon, Tomato Tomato lol. I picked up 1 battleforce, a box of scourges, a venom, and an Archon. Should make for a good fast/gun boat style army beginnings.

Still good, slightly more flimsy

 Ascalam wrote:


The fast assaulty army that half the codex was designed for got a stiff kick in the shorts. You can still do it. but it's not as good as it might be. Gunboat hit and run still works.

I dont feel this is 100% true. I play exactly that sort of assaulty army, even though its out of vogue. I can see having played fairly assaulty that it's far from ineffective, though I will; conce3de that shooting is a necessary companionto the assaults. It would take only one mod to the list to afford the webwy portals if it seemed necessary (which it really hasn't seemed, to date, though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to doing it against IG). Here's a link to one of my battle reports against a Blood angel opponent, with pics.: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2012/07/blood-angels-vs-dark-eldar-battle-report.html

The list I CURRENTLY use is here though and has evolved from that. here is the list I use now:

Talos Pain Engine (TL Liquefier, TL HeatLance)

VoidRaven Bomber (2 x necrotoxin, 1 x Shatterfield, I like the AP and pinning of the Necrotoxin. Fits the terror theme better but the AP is the big thing. I have a Voidbomb so I dont NEED the 4th missile really, even though it would be nice.

4 units 5 Wracks (Liquefier, Acothyst with Hexrifle)

2 Raiders (Shock Prow, Torment Launchers, Flickerfield to be able to rush the enemy with lesser units and force them to look at things besides my bigger monsters. Currently, enemies key in on the mean nasty big units (and for good reason). Need to force the issue.

1 Raider (Shock Prow, Torment Launchers)

2 Venoms (Extra Splinter Cannons)

5 Truborn (4 Blasters, 1 Splinter Cannon since the unit seems to move SO often, no sense in the Dark Lance I usually take)

6 Grotesques (Liquefier, Aberration with Scissorhands for maximum STR 7 carnage, Master Homonculae upgrade).

Urien Rakarth

3 Reaver Jetbikes (Blaster to help the rushing Raiders out by saturating the enemy backfield and killing tanks.)

3 Reaver Jetbikes (Blaster, same as the other one)

5 Beast Masters (+4 Clawed Fiends, +2 Razorwing flocks)

1997 pts.
Models: 56
Kill Points: 17



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Has anyone tried mandrake heavy lists? I know it seems like a waste but if you deploy them standard a joined IC could really boost them.

a guy at my club runs 30 of them and decapitator in every list. It is embarrassing. No they are never good.

My first list had a lot of Mandrakes, about 24. Good times.

 Niiai wrote:
I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)

solid list there

warriors i find tend to do well with a blaster as the second weapon- always handy if you need a quick shot at a vehicle

and never get that cocky about people shooting the warriors first being daft- you shouldn't put them in that postion in the first place

you will find that venoms (twin SCs for extra ) cause a lot of problems i like to abuse the fact you can shoot the transported squad at a different target, my 5 man warrior squads with blasters have caused much havock.

Happy hunting

Art_of_war wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I was thinking two warrior raiders, two haywire wytch venoms, two blaster born venoms, two ravagers, a razorwing and a full squad of beasts with the barron. If the warriors are the first that get shot i am counting my oponent a bit daft. :-)

solid list there

warriors i find tend to do well with a blaster as the second weapon- always handy if you need a quick shot at a vehicle

and never get that cocky about people shooting the warriors first being daft- you shouldn't put them in that postion in the first place

you will find that venoms (twin SCs for extra ) cause a lot of problems i like to abuse the fact you can shoot the transported squad at a different target, my 5 man warrior squads with blasters have caused much havock.

Happy hunting

Venoms with twin SC:s are very killy and very good at backing up wyches before they charge in. I still run almost the same list I did in 5th ed. When the current DE line came out I just fell in love with the models. I built my army pretty much completely around the models I like and they did well. I run several 5 strong wych squads in venoms (twin-SC.s naturally), reavers, beastmasters, razorwings jetfighters and a Succubus accompanied by bloodbrides in a venom. I do not play competitively by the way. The list did fine in 5th but now in 6th it kinda struggles and I changed the list that there is at least one warrior squad in a venom with a blaster but to keep them with the theme I put warrior arms on wyches. Those warriors made the list more survivable. I love the list. It has been fun to play with even though it loses a lot.

Anyone had any good use of Scourges? They seem like a solid choice for popping tanks with blasters and haywire grenades. I've pretty much got a squad of 5 in mind for popping a Leman Russ turn 2.