What your looking at is a guy who has wolf like powers and a fancy axe who is a superhuman and also is a prophet to a powerful psyker against a daemonic superhuman who also has the help of all of the dark gods and has a weapon that was wielded by Horus himself and perhaps one of the most powerful daemonic swords in exsitance, who also is a prophet of the the dark gods themselves...
This is just my opinion anyway, but there should be a poll here as well.
Also 9/10 Abbadon will beat him on the table (ive seen it happen... I think...).
What your looking at is a guy who has wolf like powers and a fancy axe...
Listen up lad! It be a dangerous mistake to call Grimnar’s prized weapon for a “fancy axe.” Morkai strikes with the force of a Powerfist and has blades as sharp as the teeth of a mighty Seadragon. Yarr!
Probably Abaddon. He's got thousands of years of battle-experience over Logan, and one does not remain the de facto leader of the Traitor Legions through charming personality alone. He's also what amounts to a second-generation Space Marine, with his geneseed being about as close to the source as its possible to get. Only Bjorn really has the status to make a similar claim.
And, yeah, he's got the Great Four and an unknown number of lesser Powers at his back. In such a fight, Logan might suffer an unfortunate accident and slip on a pile of wolf-gak and break his neck before Abaddon needs to even move... all according to plan.
Well Abaddon has been around for 10,000 years. He's backed by the four powers of Chaos and he has a daemonically-possessed weapon. In addition it takes a lot of skill to muster the amount of Chaos Space Marines to launch a Black Crusade.
Also he was a badass when it comes to fighting in the Horus Heresy books.
Logan Grimnar is powerful but he isn't so battle-hardened.
Note that the OP said in a fist fight, no demonic weapons or hammers, Stop bringing them into it.
Anyhoo, I think Logan would win.
Quote from Abaddon "Horus was weak, Horus was a fool. He had the entire galaxy in his hands and he let it slip through his fingers" Coming from a man who cant claim one planet utilizing thousands of marines and cultists... >>
No other factors? so the 4 ruinous powers jacking Abaddon up are gone for the fist fight, doesn't matter Abaddon still has 10,000 years of great crusade experience, Horus heresy experience, black crusade experience.
I think some people forget that Abaddon is a ' Luna wolf ' . He has everything that Logan has. On the exception of space wolves have better senses. Luna wolves have the most endurance of all the legions. Even the perfectionists of Fulgrim's legion are exhausted trying to keep up.
Abaddon has 10,000 years of fighting and tactical experience. Logan doesn't.
Abaddon was on Ullanor with Horus slaying the Warboss. A most impressive feat of strength for even a first captain.
Abaddon fought back from a crushing advance from the loyalists and reclaimed the war masters body. And yet again had to reclaim the war masters body from the Emperors children within the eye.
Only the daemon primarchs have as much power as Abaddon
Abaddon also has been waging war in his terminator armor all this time. There really isn't a time that hes not in it, and even when terminator armor was fist issued to the legions Abaddon is super fast and quick footed in it, Loken makes a note of it on Istvan 3, Imagine if he wasn't wearing it how fast he would be.
If it was Logan Vs Abaddon in a boxing ring or a field, he would be on the ground so fast its not funny. Logan would be weaker, Logan would be exhausted, Logan would be slower, Logan would be intellectually outmatched, Logan is not as battle hardened as Abaddon.
I'm trying hard not to be a Abaddon fan boy, but lets be real.
Harriticus wrote: Abaddon is out of Logan's league. Doubt Grimnar could even go head to head with the likes of Calgar/Dante
Spoiler:
Grimnar is believed by some observers to be one of the most powerful warriors in the Imperium, greater even than other Space Marine Chapter Masters such as Lord Commander Dante of the Blood Angels, Supreme Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels, and even Lord Marneus Calgar of the feared Ultramarines.
Not cool,but I doubt that they can go toe to toe with him - two of them -together
Space Wolves are famed for their CC abilities, I would probably say Logan Grimnar, but maybe I am being biased because I despise Chaos, and love the mighty Wolves
Frecklesonfire wrote: No other factors? so the 4 ruinous powers jacking Abaddon up are gone for the fist fight, doesn't matter Abaddon still has 10,000 years of great crusade experience, Horus heresy experience, black crusade experience.
I think some people forget that Abaddon is a ' Luna wolf ' . He has everything that Logan has. On the exception of space wolves have better senses. Luna wolves have the most endurance of all the legions. Even the perfectionists of Fulgrim's legion are exhausted trying to keep up.
Abaddon has 10,000 years of fighting and tactical experience. Logan doesn't.
Abaddon was on Ullanor with Horus slaying the Warboss. A most impressive feat of strength for even a first captain.
Abaddon fought back from a crushing advance from the loyalists and reclaimed the war masters body. And yet again had to reclaim the war masters body from the Emperors children within the eye.
Only the daemon primarchs have as much power as Abaddon
Abaddon also has been waging war in his terminator armor all this time. There really isn't a time that hes not in it, and even when terminator armor was fist issued to the legions Abaddon is super fast and quick footed in it, Loken makes a note of it on Istvan 3, Imagine if he wasn't wearing it how fast he would be.
If it was Logan Vs Abaddon in a boxing ring or a field, he would be on the ground so fast its not funny. Logan would be weaker, Logan would be exhausted, Logan would be slower, Logan would be intellectually outmatched, Logan is not as battle hardened as Abaddon.
I'm trying hard not to be a Abaddon fan boy, but lets be real.
I like abaddon and all, since I want to start a chaos army with him and chosen with lots of termis. (just epic)
But speed is not a problem. did you not read my comment that logan killed a GK supremme GM with 1 hit before he can even react, is that not fast? with all his psychic ability and mastery of the falchion and being the supreme GM he died to logan, also even a GK libby was beat by him. this libby shattered the demon sword of (the demon from the the first war of armorgedon).
Sorry i forget how to spell the names and exact details.
Guys, fluff wise Abaddon is HUGE. He is bigger than a normal Space Marine. In Shadow Point, he is standing next to his Terminator bodyguards and he stands a head taller than them. There is also a picture of him with some normal Black Legion CSM's and he stands a great deal larger than them. Abaddon, fluff wise, would absolutely crush Logan in a fist fight. However, I do think Logan would get a few good licks in before he died.
My vote would go to Abbadon. Grimnar only killed the GKGM by teleporting in with a sneak attack, but that's beside the point.
Abbadon is blessed with the power of chaos, as well as the aforementioned experience. His usage of uber lightning claws means he is much more practised in a straight up fist fight than Logan, who is used to his axe. While I'm sure drunken bar fights on Fenris have helped hone Grimnar's fisticuff abilities, I'm not sure raw speed and brutality will get the job done here. It's like having lucius get in a fight with Kharn; while Kharn is undoubtedly better at butchering large swathes of the enemy, he would likely lose to a specialised stylised duelist like Lucius. They're just designed for different roles, and have practiced different combat styles.
Abbadon... he has never caused much harm to me on the table (mainly b/c I point all my death at him) but his experience, exploits and size give him the definite edge.
I agree completely with Justicar_Thunderflanks. There is no contest whatsoever, Abaddon would win everytime, in everyway. Fistfight, Abaddon through sheer size, speed, strength and endurance. Duel, Abaddon through skill, experience and tactics.
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote: My vote would go to Abbadon. Grimnar only killed the GKGM by teleporting in with a sneak attack, but that's beside the point.
Abbadon is blessed with the power of chaos, as well as the aforementioned experience. His usage of uber lightning claws means he is much more practised in a straight up fist fight than Logan, who is used to his axe. While I'm sure drunken bar fights on Fenris have helped hone Grimnar's fisticuff abilities, I'm not sure raw speed and brutality will get the job done here. It's like having lucius get in a fight with Kharn; while Kharn is undoubtedly better at butchering large swathes of the enemy, he would likely lose to a specialised stylised duelist like Lucius. They're just designed for different roles, and have practiced different combat styles.
when i saw the word "teleport" I know you did not read the book properly.
The writer specificly said the space wolfs don't teleport and took the storm raven onto the GK battleship. Sneak or not THE GKGM is a psyker which he can predict logan's movements and he probably prepared for it since he took the blame of killing that many SW on logan's battleship by ordering to fire.
10,000 year of battle is not actully 10,000 years for abaddon, because remember he lives in the warp, for him is probably only 1000-2000 of his life. Thats why his black cursades takes so many years to organise, 10 years for his is 100 years outside the eye.
So to say his got more battle experince might not be so correct. He is large and the 1st genSM with very pure geneseed but how do you know logan is not also that big? Also SW were created to be SM killers (hinted in the horus heresy book). They are specialled are killing other space marines its in their instinct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also lastly, a 1st captain (or GM) of the GK chapter can defeat the Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters Traitor Legion, and logan can kill the GKGM. I would say logan would be a match for abaddon or even better than him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading through his fulff also found this:
"13th Black Crusade
During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "
This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.
Here are some facts about Logan nicely summed by 1d4chan :
Spoiler:
Logan Grimnar is Chapter Master of the Space Wolves, and all-around cool guy. He has been the Space Wolves Chapter master for over 700 years and has been kicking ass even longer, making him one of the oldest Chapter Masters currently serving. He has shown great battle prowess and his thirst for blood rivals that of their mighty Primarch, Leman Russ. As such, he is said to be the greatest living warrior in the Imperium. (At least until the Spiritual Liege Matt Ward gets his hands on him and nerfs him down below his favored sons the ultrasmurfs, until then suck on that Marneus Calgar) Grimnar wears a pimped out suit of terminator armour equipped with a storm bolter and carries his trusty axe Morkai (which he got from beating the gak out of a Chaos champion and stealing it from him, then beating the corruption out of the daemon weapon until it submitted to him) into war with him. As of the 5th Ed. Space Wolf Codex, he also has the ability to buff his squad with some fun tricks, give all nearby allied models an extra attack for one turn, AND makes Wolf Guard into a Troops choice, allowing you to pimp out your whole army. Isn't he generous? Well, he's certainly generous to the enemies of the Imperium - WITH THE ASS-KICKINGS!
The Ecclesiarchy does not like him, and has charged him on multiple counts of treason and heresy for being a decent person to the Imperial Guard and other non-Astartes organizations. Like after the Armageddon War (in which he actually managed to make Angron even ANGRIER), when those donkey-caves in the Inquisition decided to purge all the Guardsmen who fought there because they were "tainted" or some gak and Grimnar called them out on their dickery. As a result, the Inquisition keeps clear of Fenris whenever it can, for fear of what might happen. Yes, you read that right. The Inquisition has no fear of the heretic, the xeno, or the daemon, but Logan Grimnar? He fething terrifies them.
Grimnar is also the only non-Daemon entity to slay a Grey Knights Grand Master. Yes, you read that right, he fething decapitated a space marine that hunts Greater Daemons for a living... But you are probably thinking "Wait...Hold up. What the hell did a Chapter that has never fallen to Chaos, and is regarded to have geneseed directly from the Big E himself, do to earn the scorn of Grimnar so much that he slays one of their Grand Masters?" The answer kiddies is that the Inquisition strikes again, in slowed hindsight ordering the Knights to fire on the Wolf Wolf Ships during a *cough*peace meeting*cough* probably wasn't the best idea. Naturally, the Great Wolf being the Great Wolf, flies up to the Inquisitorial ship, walks right up to the Grand Master that gave the order and cuts his fething head off then shoots down four Grey Knight Justicars for the lulz. Long story short and much rage-only-the-screwing-up-of-the-inquisition-can-do later, Bjorn the Fell Handed had to finally step in and kick some Wolf and Knight balls in equal measure to remind them trolling around in 40k will not be tolerated. So everybody goes home pretty fethed up, but with their heads on straight (well except for the grand master, and the Lord Inquisitor who started it all (Yeah Grimmy didn't forget about him)).
When that fething failure Abaddon kicked off the 13th Black Crusade, good ol' Creed knew just the person to call. See Grimnar is an old drinking buddy of the clever Cadian (which says a lot about Creed's stamina, as Space Wolves only drink Fenrisian), and when the massed Legions of Chaos came knocking on the Cadian Gate he knew the Old Wolf would have his back. Grimnar rocked up and ran the show, combining his testosterone fuelled manliness with the brass balls of Creed to put the Armless Wonder back in his place. He was named Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces, which included Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition Forces, who took it about as well as you would expect.
And he also shares the same resentment towards the Dark Angels as the rest of his chapter (Where's the fluff on this, exactly? He probably does, though. Bathrobe-wearing pansies.). Also among his hatreds is that of the Galactic Partridges, who have successfully managed to trollingly capitalize on his badassery for at least a few centuries now. Despite their dickishness, Logan still manages to maintain the bulk of the credit for his mighty deeds.
He is the only known furry that you can think is fething AWESOME without being HERE-BLAMMED.
He was probably created from the combined geneseed of both Leman Russ and Eddard Stark.
(A little known fact is that Fenris is actually the same world as the setting of a Song of Ice and Fire, thousands upon thousands of years later. They are just in their longest-ass winter yet.)
There is no conceivable way that Logan beats him. You can quote the same novel about killing a GK master all you want, it's not going to magically make Logan better. You quote it over and over telling everyone they read it wrong and we are ignoring what happened that one time, but choose to ignore everything else that is playing into this.
Abbadon is so unequivocally badass it just makes this entire thread moot.
And no, it doesn't show Logan is as tactically able as Abbadon. Eisenhower blasted through Rommel's Atlantic Wall but that doesn't mean he's a better tactician.
As everyone keeps saying, Abbadon wins hands down. The guy was second in command of the legion that the Emperor decided were his number one, now he's first in command of that legion, he wields the weapon of the Primarch who almost killed the Emperor AND some super powerful daemon sword.
Add in all the thousands of years of combat experience. What's that I hear you say, time flows slower in the Warp? Wrong. It flows differently, this guy could skip 1000 years in a few hours, or he can drag out a minute for centuries, just by asking his best friends the Chaos Gods to turn down the speed on time for a little while.
More badassery needed to sway your opinion? Say no more. The man has a topknot. Nothing says "I am going to kill you quicker than you can say 'What a glorious hairstyle'." like a goddamn topknot. Or how about his curious lack of facial hair? Logan has a beard, yeah that's manly and all, but not as manly as why Abbadon doesn't. He never gets out of his armour anymore, and it's hard to get Gilette in the EoT, so how does he shave? Using Drach'nyen. He shaves his face with a Daemon sword.
Still not swayed? Let's take a look at their rides. Pride of Fenris, yeah I suppose that's okay. Ain't got nothing on pimping round the galaxy in a ship named after what it does, especially when that ship is called Planetkiller.
And as for Abaddon failing all his Black Crusades, wrong again. Abaddon's made the Chaos Gods his homeboys, he's learned all their tricks. He's only JUST tried to take Cadia recently, every other Crusade has gone Just as Planned.
During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "
This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.
Other than the cadian sector was wrecked, the planet was wrecked, the resistance desperate and retreating.
If it wasn't for the necrons and the imperial navy they would have lost the sector completely rather than a sound thrashing. Not exactly a glowing record. But apparently all this has been retconned. Shame.
But this is all irrelevant as it is a fist fight.
Hmm fist fight I'd say close match grimnir probably having more experience in them but abaddon being naturally better.
As soon as any kind of weapon is involved its all abaddon.
During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "
This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.
Other than the cadian sector was wrecked, the planet was wrecked, the resistance desperate and retreating.
If it wasn't for the necrons and the imperial navy they would have lost the sector completely rather than a sound thrashing. Not exactly a glowing record. But apparently all this has been retconned. Shame.
But this is all irrelevant as it is a fist fight.
Hmm fist fight I'd say close match grimnir probably having more experience in them but abaddon being naturally better.
As soon as any kind of weapon is involved its all abaddon.
During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "
This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.
Other than the cadian sector was wrecked, the planet was wrecked, the resistance desperate and retreating.
If it wasn't for the necrons and the imperial navy they would have lost the sector completely rather than a sound thrashing. Not exactly a glowing record. But apparently all this has been retconned. Shame.
But this is all irrelevant as it is a fist fight.
Hmm fist fight I'd say close match grimnir probably having more experience in them but abaddon being naturally better.
As soon as any kind of weapon is involved its all abaddon.
More experience than Abbadon? Are you joking? Why do you automatically assume Space Wolf = experienced bar fighter? How can you say one has more experience than the other in fist fights? You don't know. We can only guess. Abbadon had dozens of other uner powerful lords at his heels at all times scheming their way into killing him and taking control. I would wager he's had more experience dealing with super powerful space marines than Logan does.
And also, have any of you watched a fight from two guys in different weight classes? It's generally lopsided. Here we have an example of that. Being at least a head taller and probably a hundred or so pounds more than Logan, Abbadon would crush him.
Who would have more experience fighting other Space Marines, the guy who fought during the Heresy and continued fighting for the next 10,000 years, or the guy who has only been around for 700 years and has fought various enemies during that time.
Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.
Durza wrote: Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.
Hm sorry for being ultra-loyalist, but for me Loken will always be no1 Luna Wolf -(end fight in "Galaxy in flames" shows that )
Harriticus wrote: Abaddon is out of Logan's league. Doubt Grimnar could even go head to head with the likes of Calgar/Dante
Ok, I agree Grimanr would lose to Abaddon 9/10 but surely you can't believe that Grimnar wouldn't be on equal footing with Calgar and Dante? They are all just Space Marine Chapter Masters, I doubt any of them would have any huge advantage over the other.
I also want to point out NObody can beat the Daemon Prince Primarch Angron 1 on 1, Sanguinius on a good day maybe.. that is a F'ing joke. Maybe a Daemon prince leman russ on a good day aha. Hilarious, a Grand master beating angron 1 on 1, what a joke. And didn't it take like 100 gak termies to fight him or chant some clafairy song?
also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously?? like really... i just want to point out that hunting down daemons, mindless beats most of the time with no real strategy or melee prowess other then overpowering swings.... ya.. good fight grey gaks.
Durza wrote: Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.
Hm sorry for being ultra-loyalist, but for me Loken will always be no1 Luna Wolf -(end fight in "Galaxy in flames" shows that )
I have read that book... and doesn't abbadon DESTROY Loken and collapse a building on them? Then get up and leave? End of the book Abbadon walks away victorious, unaware that Loken was alive still.
So, Abbadon wins me thinks. He's so powerful it's rumoured that he was a clone of Horus (CSM 'dex 4th ed)
Durza wrote: Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.
Hm sorry for being ultra-loyalist, but for me Loken will always be no1 Luna Wolf -(end fight in "Galaxy in flames" shows that )
I have read that book... and doesn't abbadon DESTROY Loken and collapse a building on them? Then get up and leave? End of the book Abbadon walks away victorious, unaware that Loken was alive still.
So, Abbadon wins me thinks. He's so powerful it's rumoured that he was a clone of Horus (CSM 'dex 4th ed)
Von Chogg
He was in Termi armor - that alone is huge advantage and still Loken owned him ( good portion of the fight )
Marthike wrote: Sneak or not THE GKGM is a psyker which he can predict logan's movements and he probably prepared for it since he took the blame of killing that many SW on logan's battleship by ordering to fire.
Not every psyker has precognition. Most don't, actually.
Also, you're seriously kidding yourself if you think Grimnar can take on Kaldor fething Draigo, which you implied in your post in some hilarious way to hype Grimnar up.
Said Brother Captain almost died against Angron, and to win he had to have his fellow dozens of Grey Knights focus and multiply their combined powers and attack him with pure awesomeness, in an attempt to banish him, which stunned him long enough for the Brocap to decapitate him.
Marthike wrote: [quote=Justicar_Thunderf
So to say his got more battle experince might not be so correct. He is large and the 1st genSM with very pure geneseed but how do you know logan is not also that big? Also SW were created to be SM killers (hinted in the horus heresy book). They are specialled are killing other space marines its in their instinct.
This is false. What is SAID in the HH novels is that the Wolves were chosen to enact the Emperor's judgement because they are unquestioningly loyal him and could be called to heel. Kharn states they are more hounds than wolves, and it's precisely that loyalty and restraint that his Legion abandoned when they stopped being the Emperor's War Hounds and became Angron's Eaters of Worlds.
As for the GK, Grimnar indeed owned him in one shot (granted, a surprise attack at a parley, but a one-shot regardless). The guy wasn't a supreme GM, however, but rather one of the candidates, and was consistently portrayed in the novel as overly ambitious, arrogant, and short-sighted, and consistently underestimated the Wolves. Full props to Logan, but if that's not reverse plot-armor, I don't know what is. And did anyone else find the scene where Bjorn chastised Logan like a child to be hilarious?
@Darthmarko
For sure no. But the campiagn was a minor Chaos victory, with Andy Chambers citing imperial sector control as a major factor.
The Blackstone fortress was driven off following the Necron assault preventing its orbital bombvardment from incinerating Cadian defensive postions.
The Imperial Fleet peeled away Chaos defensive squadrons and for the most part decimated the Chaos fleet. Although they themselves were too battered to press home the advantage.
If I recall correctly Russ also went off to hunt Alpha Legion Infiltrators rather than delegate the roll at one point.
@Ignatius
I don't expect Abaddon to lose, quite the opposite even. However given grimnir his due, unarmed and weaponless, I would expect him to have more experience than Abaddon, taven brawls ing more culturally acceptable for the space wolf and thus his experience, that time as a ale drinking blood claw is useful for something.
Whereas Abaddon probably rarely gets his hands dirty, I can imagine him using the talon, drach'nyen, bolter, a nod to his terminator Guards to off someone, just not removing his weapons and using his fists to club someone. As he's in termie armour you don't just disarm him. He is a weapon. He's probably more skilled and experienced than grimnir in every form of combat amnd war. Just not this one I don't think. I think abaddon would win, just not as easily as if he had the talon and drach'nyen in his hands.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: As everyone keeps saying, Abbadon wins hands down. The guy was second in command of the legion that the Emperor decided were his number one, now he's first in command of that legion, he wields the weapon of the Primarch who almost killed the Emperor AND some super powerful daemon sword.
Add in all the thousands of years of combat experience. What's that I hear you say, time flows slower in the Warp? Wrong. It flows differently, this guy could skip 1000 years in a few hours, or he can drag out a minute for centuries, just by asking his best friends the Chaos Gods to turn down the speed on time for a little while.
More badassery needed to sway your opinion? Say no more. The man has a topknot. Nothing says "I am going to kill you quicker than you can say 'What a glorious hairstyle'." like a goddamn topknot. Or how about his curious lack of facial hair? Logan has a beard, yeah that's manly and all, but not as manly as why Abbadon doesn't. He never gets out of his armour anymore, and it's hard to get Gilette in the EoT, so how does he shave? Using Drach'nyen. He shaves his face with a Daemon sword.
Still not swayed? Let's take a look at their rides. Pride of Fenris, yeah I suppose that's okay. Ain't got nothing on pimping round the galaxy in a ship named after what it does, especially when that ship is called Planetkiller.
And as for Abaddon failing all his Black Crusades, wrong again. Abaddon's made the Chaos Gods his homeboys, he's learned all their tricks. He's only JUST tried to take Cadia recently, every other Crusade has gone Just as Planned.
This post contains so much win in it I cant even begin describing it...
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard, what context aren't you telling us?
Grimnar nodded to their words, turning back to Joros and Kysnaros. ‘Tell me, which one of you whoresons gave the order to open fire on our shieldless, weaponless vessels?"
"It was I,’ said Joros. ‘It gave me no pleasure, but the deed was done for the greater good."
The jarl nodded. ‘I’ve marked your face, knight. I’ll remember it from now until the Wolftime. You have my word on that. No Fenrisian ever forgets one who violates the laws of sheathed blades and bared throats. Once those laws are broken, all rules of decorum and honour are abandoned. To betray a betrayer is never counted as a sin."
Kysnaros tied his long blond hair into a ponytail, keeping any stray strands from his face. ‘Enough of this. The Imperium’s woes will not bide while we stand here and make superstitious promises. Chapter Master Grimnar, you will surrender as agreed, and your Wolves will stand down.’ Jarl Grimnar gave us his canine smile again, showing wet fangs. ‘That,’ he said, ‘will not be happening.’
Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated. The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.
All of you people saying abaddon has 10,000 years of battle experince is WRONG.
He live in the warp, time there is different for him. And I don't know if chaos makes him immortal but most space marine have a shelf life and that why so many of them want to be demon princes. Also why has abaddon not assended to being a demon prince if his that bad ass?
Fluff wise the chaos gods don't all that support him yet. Not like you think all chaos gods are watching him like his their "son", they probably pay no attension to him most of the time.
I did not compare kaldor draigo with logan but logan is probably as good as him consider the feats he has done.
fluff by fluff logan is no weaker than abaddon.
This is also a fist fight both of them basicly fight in termi armour 24/7. Abaddon do not for sure have more experince since he lives in the warp so no one knows how old he is.
And lastly people keeps comparing weapons, if you guys say abaddon's weapons are all that better than logan that means without them abaddon is not all that awesome?
Also SPEED read this bit from the BOOK:
"The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frecklesonfire wrote: I also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously??
Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: As everyone keeps saying, Abbadon wins hands down. The guy was second in command of the legion that the Emperor decided were his number one, now he's first in command of that legion, he wields the weapon of the Primarch who almost killed the Emperor AND some super powerful daemon sword.
Add in all the thousands of years of combat experience. What's that I hear you say, time flows slower in the Warp? Wrong. It flows differently, this guy could skip 1000 years in a few hours, or he can drag out a minute for centuries, just by asking his best friends the Chaos Gods to turn down the speed on time for a little while.
More badassery needed to sway your opinion? Say no more. The man has a topknot. Nothing says "I am going to kill you quicker than you can say 'What a glorious hairstyle'." like a goddamn topknot. Or how about his curious lack of facial hair? Logan has a beard, yeah that's manly and all, but not as manly as why Abbadon doesn't. He never gets out of his armour anymore, and it's hard to get Gilette in the EoT, so how does he shave? Using Drach'nyen. He shaves his face with a Daemon sword.
Still not swayed? Let's take a look at their rides. Pride of Fenris, yeah I suppose that's okay. Ain't got nothing on pimping round the galaxy in a ship named after what it does, especially when that ship is called Planetkiller.
And as for Abaddon failing all his Black Crusades, wrong again. Abaddon's made the Chaos Gods his homeboys, he's learned all their tricks. He's only JUST tried to take Cadia recently, every other Crusade has gone Just as Planned.
DarthMarko wrote:Even thou Abbadon is OP - he would Fail because he has tradition of Failing (Failbaddon)
Does he?
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Ok I'm not impartial but I hate that guy so much, every book I've read, hatred was bigger and bigger and when he snarled on Alpharius (f***ng primarch) like he was common G.I. joe I wanted to kill him...
DarthMarko wrote:Even thou Abbadon is OP - he would Fail because he has tradition of Failing (Failbaddon)
Does he?
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Ok I'm not impartial but I hate that guy so much, every book I've read, hatred was bigger and bigger and when he snarled on Alpharius (f***ng primarch) like he was common G.I. joe I wanted to kill him...
He's not very likeable, well after Davin at least, but that's what is great about him in a way. No one likes him, not many believe that he should be Warmaster but still he holds ultimate sway over the Chaos forces. It's arguable that he has achieved more than the traitor Primarchs did in their fight against the Imperium, there's certainly a couple of characters in the Night Lords trilogy that think this. So he hasn't reached Terra yet in all this time, but has each Black Crusades goal actually been Terra, I don't think so. Each so far has had it's own aim, and for the most part, Abaddon has achieved this. Whats another 10,000 years to wait if after all that you get to stand on the charred earth of Terran soil after pulling the rotten corpse of the False Emperor from his throne.
Alpharius would have put him back in his place, I would have loved to have seen that
Just thought I'd bring up this avatar:
Kinda hints at a bias, yes? 'Specially when everyone else seems to agree it'd be abbadon... including me, BTW...
p_gray99 wrote: Just thought I'd bring up this avatar:
Kinda hints at a bias, yes? 'Specially when everyone else seems to agree it'd be abbadon... including me, BTW...
No I wroted Logan ( I'm not the only one :-) just because I hate Abby - I know he is "underdog" in this (so is any chapter master btw ) ....
Red Viper wrote: Let Logan battle the likes of Kharn, Typhus, Lucius.
Logan could probably take Kharn. The battle against Typhus would depend on how much Typhus could bring his powers into play. Lucius? Logan is doomed either way.
Red Viper wrote: Let Logan battle the likes of Kharn, Typhus, Lucius.
Logan could probably take Kharn. The battle against Typhus would depend on how much Typhus could bring his powers into play. Lucius? Logan is doomed either way.
Ooo just to think how Logan would enjoyed killing Lucius ( add howling to that image ) - and then - puff -opening space in the chapter master chair
Logan would more or less be used as a training dummy by Draigo, let alone an equal opponent.
Is that you Ward?And we are talking about Abaddon vs Draigo...
Hey, I'm not liking it lol, just that Draigo's superhero feats speak for themselves.
Abaddon wouldn't really be capable of fighting Draigo either, I mean, we ARE talking about a dude that has trolled the Warp so much that only the most crazy of Khorne's demons bother attacking him anymore.
Logan would more or less be used as a training dummy by Draigo, let alone an equal opponent.
Is that you Ward?And we are talking about Abaddon vs Draigo...
Hey, I'm not liking it lol, just that Draigo's superhero feats speak for themselves.
Abaddon wouldn't really be capable of fighting Draigo either, I mean, we ARE talking about a dude that has trolled the Warp so much that only the most crazy of Khorne's demons bother attacking him anymore.
Dude now I don't know are you being sarcastic or serious and what is your stance on Draigo....
Logan would more or less be used as a training dummy by Draigo, let alone an equal opponent.
Is that you Ward?And we are talking about Abaddon vs Draigo...
Hey, I'm not liking it lol, just that Draigo's superhero feats speak for themselves.
Abaddon wouldn't really be capable of fighting Draigo either, I mean, we ARE talking about a dude that has trolled the Warp so much that only the most crazy of Khorne's demons bother attacking him anymore.
Dude now I don't know are you being sarcastic or serious and what is your stance on Draigo....
My stance on Draigo is that he is a cartoon mary sue superhero that shouldn't be used in comparison to other 40k characters because the way Ward wrote him makes him out to be so much stronger then most other 40k characters.
My stance on Draigo is that he is a cartoon mary sue superhero that shouldn't be used in comparison to other 40k characters because the way Ward wrote him makes him out to be so much stronger then most other 40k characters.
My stance on Draigo is that he is a cartoon mary sue superhero that shouldn't be used in comparison to other 40k characters because the way Ward wrote him makes him out to be so much stronger then most other 40k characters.
Marthike wrote: Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Draigo is directly stated to be the most decorated Grey Knight in history save maybe the founder of their order, and is to date the only character who has ever beaten a Daemon Primarch one on one, let alone dominating one like Draigo did. Draigo is without doubt the most powerful Grey Knight, nay, the most powerful Space Marine, we have seen in action.
Draigo could beat Abaddon and Logan with the same amount of difficulty. Which is to say none at all.
Stop trying to use Draigo's feats to make Logan look good, it's sad.
As much as it pains me to say it. Draigo wins on fluff.
Yet only because his fluff was written by at best a stroppy hyperactive 12 year old... I wantz my generulz to be da bestest, he swims in the warp, beat up a primarch, nofing can touch him, he can eat stars and fart fireballs.... Yeah! Suck on that realism.
So yes Draigo wins, but the entire 40k universe is lessend because of it.
So with background like that I advocate the following.
'Grudgingly concede defeat in versus threads of anykind, personally disregard any and all fluff regarding him as detrimental to the background of the 40k universe, and finally round up a lynch mob for the stroppy hyperactive 12 year old'
Personally I hopw Ward gets the next ork dex so a grot can kill him in hand to hand combat with a rusty spork.
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Ha ha oh he ha he he, and i thought my jokes were bad!?
A daemon prince stronger then Abaddon seriously.. man i dont know what you've read about daemons etc, but a lot of daemon princes are very weak and not very good. HOWEVER there are many who are very strong, in the chaos codex's 4th and 5th, it states that there are Daemon Princes, and Greater daemons that are stronger then the Primarchs. They are so ancient etc.
There are several weak daemon princes. Ever heard of Hunt for Voldorius? well i'm not going to spoil anything but a weak characters kill a daemon prince very easily. All you have to do to become a prince is to gain a lot of favor from the gods, sacrificing peeps...
I'm not going into anymore detail your comment is hilarious and im just to tired.. Abaddon could defeat about 80% of the Galaxies Greater daemons and Daemon Princes. If you dont like that just read a book lol, better yet warhammer 40k wiki or Lex.. Have fun !
I totally read your comment wrong... wow my bad lmao, but ya umm i think Abaddon could beat Mortarion, maybe Perturbs.. thats a stretch but apparently Abaddon is just as powerful if not more so then Horus ever was with his new weapons and the gods suping him up..
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Ha ha oh he ha he he, and i thought my jokes were bad!?
A daemon prince stronger then Abaddon seriously.. man i dont know what you've read about daemons etc, but a lot of daemon princes are very weak and not very good. HOWEVER there are many who are very strong, in the chaos codex's 4th and 5th, it states that there are Daemon Princes, and Greater daemons that are stronger then the Primarchs. They are so ancient etc.
There are several weak daemon princes. Ever heard of Hunt for Voldorius? well i'm not going to spoil anything but a weak characters kill a daemon prince very easily. All you have to do to become a prince is to gain a lot of favor from the gods, sacrificing peeps...
I'm not going into anymore detail your comment is hilarious and im just to tired.. Abaddon could defeat about 80% of the Galaxies Greater daemons and Daemon Princes. If you dont like that just read a book lol, better yet warhammer 40k wiki or Lex.. Have fun !
I totally read your comment wrong... wow my bad lmao, but ya umm i think Abaddon could beat Mortarion, maybe Perturbs.. thats a stretch but apparently Abaddon is just as powerful if not more so then Horus ever was with his new weapons and the gods suping him up..
So like Abby would win against Mortarion ?Fulgrim maybe ?I say no chance...maybe he is too strong for any of the fantastic 4 (Dante,Logan,Azrael & Calgar ) but even Perturabo would blow him away....
Marthike wrote: Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Draigo is directly stated to be the most decorated Grey Knight in history save maybe the founder of their order, and is to date the only character who has ever beaten a Daemon Primarch one on one, let alone dominating one like Draigo did. Draigo is without doubt the most powerful Grey Knight, nay, the most powerful Space Marine, we have seen in action.
Draigo could beat Abaddon and Logan with the same amount of difficulty. Which is to say none at all.
Stop trying to use Draigo's feats to make Logan look good, it's sad.
I never said draigo. a GK paladin is a paladin by defeating one of the 666 most power demons. So a GKGM must be one of the best paladins to reach that status. This puts them to be close to defeating/fighting the greater demons and demon primarchs. This then puts logan to be probably equal/ better than the GKGM so probably equal to most demon princes and probably just a big worse than the demon primarchs. Now, this puts abaddon and logan to be pretty simmilar.
oh I forgot to mention (can't remember if its for killing these demons) but the paladins do it not wearing armour and with their fists.
Forgot if they are allowed weapons or I am quoting a seperate fluff. please some one confirm this.
Lastly, If would be nice for you to stop insulting people when your the one who keeps thinking about draigo. I don't think calling someone sad with out reason other than your own made up reason is very civil
Logan would more or less be used as a training dummy by Draigo, let alone an equal opponent.
Is that you Ward?And we are talking about Abaddon vs Draigo...
Hey, I'm not liking it lol, just that Draigo's superhero feats speak for themselves.
Abaddon wouldn't really be capable of fighting Draigo either, I mean, we ARE talking about a dude that has trolled the Warp so much that only the most crazy of Khorne's demons bother attacking him anymore.
Dude now I don't know are you being sarcastic or serious and what is your stance on Draigo....
My stance on Draigo is that he is a cartoon mary sue superhero that shouldn't be used in comparison to other 40k characters because the way Ward wrote him makes him out to be so much stronger then most other 40k characters.
Draigo is so powerful he drinks tea with the emporer in the warp.
a GK paladin is a paladin by defeating one of the 666 most power demons. So a GKGM must be one of the best paladins to reach that status. This puts them to be close to defeating/fighting the greater demons and demon primarchs. This then puts logan to be probably equal/ better than the GKGM so probably equal to most demon princes and probably just a big worse than the demon primarchs. Now, this puts abaddon and logan to be pretty simmilar.
Lorgar, who at the time was likely the weakest Primarch, beat An'ggrath, the strongest of Khorne's Bloodthirsters, while in the Warp.
The difference between your average punkass Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon is huge. There's a reason why Angron has 12 of the things as his personal bodyguard. They're troop choices compared to him.
oh I forgot to mention (can't remember if its for killing these demons) but the paladins do it not wearing armour and with their fists
Forgot if they are allowed weapons or I am quoting a seperate fluff. please some one confirm this.
They are permitted a Nemesis Force Weapon, along with the Greater Daemons's true name. Beyond that, Grey Knights are by their very nature super effective against Daemonkind.
purplefood wrote: Abbaddon would win but it's not like he'd do it easily...
Grimnar hasn't been chapter master of the SW for over 500 years for no reason...
Exactly this hear. I would put my money on Abbadon but it would be a good fight for sure
Grimnar vs pretty much anyone else and I beleive he walks away the victor. Some fights will be much closer than others.
However, I agree with pretty much everyone else. Chaos' poster boy is going to take this one. There are probably only a small handfull of guys in the universe who could take him down one on one. None of them being from the IOM.
I dunno... Mephiston is really that great fluff-wise, its only in-game. To be honest, I reckon Grimaldus would stand a better chance than Mephiston (barring the use of his psychic powers, because they aren't really part of a fist fight).
However, I agree with pretty much everyone else. Chaos' poster boy is going to take this one. There are probably only a small handfull of guys in the universe who could take him down one on one. None of them being from the IOM.
I think Draigo, Sanguinor, and Mephiston could all make a case for beating Abaddon, I see them as a step ahead of the Chapter Masters and guys like Kharn, Typhus, Lucius.
However, I agree with pretty much everyone else. Chaos' poster boy is going to take this one. There are probably only a small handfull of guys in the universe who could take him down one on one. None of them being from the IOM.
I think Draigo, Sanguinor, and Mephiston could all make a case for beating Abaddon, I see them as a step ahead of the Chapter Masters and guys like Kharn, Typhus, Lucius.
Sanguinor ? How do you add that ? Ghost vs Grand Master of Chaos ? Fluffwise I mean....
However, I agree with pretty much everyone else. Chaos' poster boy is going to take this one. There are probably only a small handfull of guys in the universe who could take him down one on one. None of them being from the IOM.
I think Draigo, Sanguinor, and Mephiston could all make a case for beating Abaddon, I see them as a step ahead of the Chapter Masters and guys like Kharn, Typhus, Lucius.
Your talking about three guys whos most recent fluff is written by Matt Ward.... I'm going to call their greatness over inflated. Abaddon has old fluff history of being a total badass back when the feats of the Astarties was much more calm (yet still impressive).
The Sanguinor would pop in, smile, get backfisted into the mat, and then just lay there moaning. At least Mephiston has a history of being tough, that I could see being a good fight, however his newest incarnation is nothing more than a fanboys wet dream (same with Draigo). But old Mephiston has the historical toughness to go the rounds, but I still see Abaddon winning this one.
Marthike wrote: All of you people saying abaddon has 10,000 years of battle experince is WRONG.
He live in the warp, time there is different for him. And I don't know if chaos makes him immortal but most space marine have a shelf life and that why so many of them want to be demon princes. Also why has abaddon not assended to being a demon prince if his that bad ass?
Fluff wise the chaos gods don't all that support him yet. Not like you think all chaos gods are watching him like his their "son", they probably pay no attension to him most of the time.
I did not compare kaldor draigo with logan but logan is probably as good as him consider the feats he has done.
fluff by fluff logan is no weaker than abaddon.
This is also a fist fight both of them basicly fight in termi armour 24/7. Abaddon do not for sure have more experince since he lives in the warp so no one knows how old he is.
And lastly people keeps comparing weapons, if you guys say abaddon's weapons are all that better than logan that means without them abaddon is not all that awesome?
Also SPEED read this bit from the BOOK:
"The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frecklesonfire wrote: I also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously??
Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Try to hide your fanboy ism a little better. It will help your arguement.
This is almost all assumptions with almost no supporting evidence from an objective source.
Didn't you learn that just because x beats y, and y beats z, it doesn't mean that x beats z.
Logan beat a GK Grandmaster that didn't even know they were fighting. If it was a fair fight, it may have turned out differently. Stop making assumptions. Also, a GK grandmaster AND dozens of paladins barely beat Angron. That's hardly the resounding 1 v 1 victory you are claiming. GK Grandmaster plus a even just a dozen paladins beats Logan, so no. Try again.
Marthike wrote: All of you people saying abaddon has 10,000 years of battle experince is WRONG.
He live in the warp, time there is different for him. And I don't know if chaos makes him immortal but most space marine have a shelf life and that why so many of them want to be demon princes. Also why has abaddon not assended to being a demon prince if his that bad ass?
Fluff wise the chaos gods don't all that support him yet. Not like you think all chaos gods are watching him like his their "son", they probably pay no attension to him most of the time.
I did not compare kaldor draigo with logan but logan is probably as good as him consider the feats he has done.
fluff by fluff logan is no weaker than abaddon.
This is also a fist fight both of them basicly fight in termi armour 24/7. Abaddon do not for sure have more experince since he lives in the warp so no one knows how old he is.
And lastly people keeps comparing weapons, if you guys say abaddon's weapons are all that better than logan that means without them abaddon is not all that awesome?
Also SPEED read this bit from the BOOK:
"The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frecklesonfire wrote: I also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously??
Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Try to hide your fanboy ism a little better. It will help your arguement.
This is almost all assumptions with almost no supporting evidence from an objective source.
Didn't you learn that just because x beats y, and y beats z, it doesn't mean that x beats z.
Logan beat a GK Grandmaster that didn't even know they were fighting. If it was a fair fight, it may have turned out differently. Stop making assumptions. Also, a GK grandmaster AND dozens of paladins barely beat Angron. That's hardly the resounding 1 v 1 victory you are claiming. GK Grandmaster plus a even just a dozen paladins beats Logan, so no. Try again.
same for you - Try to hide your fanboy ism a little better - Logan stomped him fair and square
ooo and Abby is like Abby> Logan & any other chaptermaster > GK grandmaster..try again
It is specifically stated that Abaddon passed up many opportunities to ascend to Princehood, because that would limit his activities in the material realm and entangle him in the politics of the Great Game.
Omegus wrote: It is specifically stated that Abaddon passed up many opportunities to ascend to Princehood, because that would limit his activities in the material realm and entangle him in the politics of the Great Game.
why are people saying, " try to hide your fanboyism " who cares? just because your a fan of a chapter or a epic character wont make your argument more liable. Facts are facts, and at the end of the day Matt ward is an arse. And in a fair fight Logan probably wouldnt beat a GKGM so easily, thats a credible fact, GKGM are not push overs like some people are claiming, and Logan even tho super cool, is not as bad ass, all compared to Abaddon. suck my 9 !
Frecklesonfire wrote: why are people saying, " try to hide your fanboyism " who cares? just because your a fan of a chapter or a epic character wont make your argument more liable. Facts are facts, and at the end of the day Matt ward is an arse. And in a fair fight Logan probably wouldnt beat a GKGM so easily, thats a credible fact, GKGM are not push overs like some people are claiming, and Logan even tho super cool, is not as bad ass, all compared to Abaddon. suck my 9 !
Being a fanboy of something drastically changes your perception things. It makes you write posts ten Paragraphs long with no substance to it at all but completely denying something that may be right in front of you.
I'm not being a fanboy. Nothing I've state so far has been fanboyism. I've told people to think things through and stop making assumptions. Like stated above, facts are facts. When fanboyism gets in the way of thinking these facts through.
If you think Logan would win, fine. But give answers with substance to it. Not just "well space wolves are better bar fighters just because, and Logan is awesome. So he wins". Or thinking that sucker axing someone in the chest is fair and square.
Frecklesonfire wrote: why are people saying, " try to hide your fanboyism " who cares? just because your a fan of a chapter or a epic character wont make your argument more liable. Facts are facts, and at the end of the day Matt ward is an arse. And in a fair fight Logan probably wouldnt beat a GKGM so easily, thats a credible fact, GKGM are not push overs like some people are claiming, and Logan even tho super cool, is not as bad ass, all compared to Abaddon. suck my 9 !
Being a fanboy of something drastically changes your perception things. It makes you write posts ten Paragraphs long with no substance to it at all but completely denying something that may be right in front of you.
I'm not being a fanboy. Nothing I've state so far has been fanboyism. I've told people to think things through and stop making assumptions. Like stated above, facts are facts. When fanboyism gets in the way of thinking these facts through.
If you think Logan would win, fine. But give answers with substance to it. Not just "well space wolves are better bar fighters just because, and Logan is awesome. So he wins". Or thinking that sucker axing someone in the chest is fair and square.
Why Am I being a fanboy? If I an a fan boy I am more of a GK fanboy since the only books and fluff I have full knwlage to are the GKs. I Have all codex fluff and what I can find on the internet and nothing really puts abaddon to be any better than logan.
Also my comparisson was a example to show that atleast I did some comparisson instead of someone just saying " abaddon is better because he just is. FOR CHOAS" I think there is alot of chaos fanboism here too you know?
No substance is your opinion not everyone's so stop trying to make it sound like it is. Lastly, what have you actully said? all you said is to criticise me but said nothing about the actual topic who would win. (Not on this page anyway)
Logan beat a GKGM probably full expecting it, if you read the whole section that was quoted. I just used the part that shows logan is faster than the GM. All my "assumptions" are atleast based on something written down, the only detailed book I know that talked about logan this much.
If there are any book extracts about abaddon please feel free to point me to it and I will read it and judge just how good abaddon is.
All I read now is that the chaos good like him. His the 1st captain of the luna wolfs. His larger than a normal terminator. (which chapter master isn't, they are all portait as been stronger larger and faster than the normal terminators)
He fought and survived that huge ork warboss and his guards. He fought loken. (if someone can tell me where this bit come from which book i would like to go read it)
He dominated Loken in Galaxy of Flames, albeit while wearing Terminator armour.
And no, hitting a GKGM in the chest with an axe when the GK didn't have his weapon drawn does not equate to "GK was fully expecting it and it was a fair fight".
It's a decent feat, but not as nice as you were making it to be, and certainly not enough to suggest Logan is even in the same ballpark as the characters you were trying to compare him to (You know who they are).
Logan beat a GKGM probably full expecting it, if you read the whole section that was quoted. I just used the part that shows logan is faster than the GM. All my "assumptions" are atleast based on something written down, the only detailed book I know that talked about logan this much.
If there are any book extracts about abaddon please feel free to point me to it and I will read it and judge just how good abaddon is.
All I read now is that the chaos good like him. His the 1st captain of the luna wolfs. His larger than a normal terminator. (which chapter master isn't, they are all portait as been stronger larger and faster than the normal terminators)
He fought and survived that huge ork warboss and his guards. He fought loken. (if someone can tell me where this bit come from which book i would like to go read it)
He fought Loken in Galaxy of Flames by Ben Counter, he's also been in the books Horus Rising, False Gods.
He's also big enough that the Horus Talons are normal sized to him, which they were designed personally for his much larger than average Primarch who was close to the emporer.
Your talking about three guys whos most recent fluff is written by Matt Ward.... I'm going to call their greatness over inflated. Abaddon has old fluff history of being a total badass back when the feats of the Astarties was much more calm (yet still impressive).
Fair enough. Yeah, I realized they were all from Ward's books as I wrote it, hah.
THE ENERGISED CLAW swung at Loken’s head, and he ducked, too late seeing it for the feint it was. Abaddon grabbed him by the edge of his shoulder guard and drove his knee into Loken’s stomach. Ceramite buckled and Loken felt pain knife into him as bones broke.
Abaddon released him and punched him in the face. He was thrown against the wall of the parliament, scorched plaster and brick falling around him.
‘The Warmaster wanted me to bring the Justaerin, but I told him it was an insult.’
Loken saw his sword lying on the floor beside him and slid down the wall to grab it. He pushed off the wall, pivoting past Abaddon’s slashing fist, swinging the blade towards the first captain’s face.
Abaddon blocked the blow with his forearm, reaching out to pluck Loken from his feet and hurl him towards the parliament building’s wall. The world spun away from him and suddenly there was pain.
His vision blurred as he smacked into the ground and shards of stone flew up around him. The pain within him felt strange, as if it belonged to someone else. It felt as if his back was broken and a treacherous voice in his mind whispered that the pain would go away if he just gave up and let it all go away in a fog of oblivion. His grip tightened on his sword and he let his anger fuel his strength to fight against the voice in his head that told him to give up.
A long time ago, Loken had sworn an oath to his Emperor, and that oath was never to give up, even as the moment of death approached. His vision swam back into focus, and he looked up to see the hole in the parliament house’s wall his body had smashed.
Loken rolled onto his front as Abaddon’s massive armoured form charged towards him, smashing aside the blackened remains of the breach.
He scrambled to his feet and backed away, letting Abaddon’s fist swing past him. He darted in, stabbing with his sword, but the thick plates of his enemy’s armour turned the blade aside. He scrambled back up the steps of the parliament house, hearing Torgaddon and Little Horus fighting within and knowing that he needed his brother’s strength to triumph.
‘You can’t run forever!’ roared Abaddon as he turned to follow him, his steps ponderous and heavy.
Spoiler:
TERMINATOR ARMOUR WAS huge. It made a man into a walking tank, but what it added in protection, it lost in speed. Abaddon was skilful and could fight almost as fast as any other Astartes while clad in its thick plates.
But ‘almost’ wasn’t good enough when life or death was at stake.
Chunks of rubble spilled into the parliament house as Abaddon battered his way back inside, the brutal high-shouldered shape of his Terminator armour wreathed in chalky plaster dust. As Abaddon smashed his way back inside, he passed beneath a sagging portico that supported a vast swathe of sculpted marble statuary above. Loken struck out at one of the cracked pillars supporting the portico, the fluted support smashing apart under the power of the blow.
The parliament filled with dust as the huge slabs above came down on Abaddon, the entire weight of the statuary collapsing on top of the first captain. Loken could hear Abaddon roaring in anger as the stonework thundered down in a flurry of rubble and destruction.
He turned away from the avalanche of debris and fought his way through the billowing clouds of dust towards the centre of the parliament building.
Spoiler:
Abaddon’s free hand reached up and grabbed Loken’s wrist as Loken drove his chainsword towards Abaddon’s face.
The two warriors froze, locked face to face in a battle that would determine who lived and who died. Loken gritted his teeth and forced his arm down against Abaddon’s grip.
Abaddon looked into Loken’s face and saw the hatred and loss there.
‘There’s hope for you yet, Loken,’ he snarled.
Loken forced the roaring point of the sword down with more strength than he thought could ever inhabit one body. The betrayal of the Astartes – their very essence – flashed through Loken’s mind and he found the target of his hatred embodied in Abaddon’s violent features.
The chainblade’s teeth whirred. Abaddon forced the point down and it ripped into his breastplate. Sparks sprayed as Loken pushed the point onwards, through thick layers of ceramite. The sword juddered, but Loken kept it true.
He knew where it would break through, straight through the bone shield that protected Abaddon’s chest cavity and then into his heart.
Even as he savoured the idea of Abaddon’s death, [spoiler]the first captain smiled and pushed his hand upwards. Astartes battle plate enhanced a warrior’s strength, but Terminator armour boosted it to levels beyond belief, and Abaddon called upon that power to dislodge Loken.
Abaddon surged upwards from the rubble with a roar of anger and slammed his energized fist into Loken’s chest. His armour cracked open and the bone shield protecting his own chest cavity shattered into fragments. He staggered away from Abaddon, managing to keep his feet for a few seconds before his legs gave out and he collapsed to his knees, blood dribbling from his cracked lips in bloody ropes.
Here is a pretty much a whole fight...Abby vs Loken - you judge
and poor GKGM - he was just to slow....Logan would kill him 10/10 even if he had 24 hours to prepare and charge his stick for the duel...but I agree, Abby is more badass during the Heresy, again how he growled on Alphairus,like he was nothing....
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
Why Am I being a fanboy? If I an a fan boy I am more of a GK fanboy since the only books and fluff I have full knwlage to are the GKs. I Have all codex fluff and what I can find on the internet and nothing really puts abaddon to be any better than logan.
Also my comparisson was a example to show that atleast I did some comparisson instead of someone just saying " abaddon is better because he just is. FOR CHOAS" I think there is alot of chaos fanboism here too you know?
No substance is your opinion not everyone's so stop trying to make it sound like it is. Lastly, what have you actully said? all you said is to criticise me but said nothing about the actual topic who would win. (Not on this page anyway)
Logan beat a GKGM probably full expecting it, if you read the whole section that was quoted. I just used the part that shows logan is faster than the GM. All my "assumptions" are atleast based on something written down, the only detailed book I know that talked about logan this much.
If there are any book extracts about abaddon please feel free to point me to it and I will read it and judge just how good abaddon is.
All I read now is that the chaos good like him. His the 1st captain of the luna wolfs. His larger than a normal terminator. (which chapter master isn't, they are all portait as been stronger larger and faster than the normal terminators)
He fought and survived that huge ork warboss and his guards. He fought loken. (if someone can tell me where this bit come from which book i would like to go read it)
I've made my point, which was show which side I supported. Everything that I was going to say had already been said, so there is no point in me just repeating it. I wouldn't have been of any use to the conversation. I can be of use by challenging the other side to see if the basis for their arguement is in fact solid. Which it didn't appear to me. When I challenged those arguments by asking seemingly insulting questions, the only answers I got were assumptions and not a lot of information. Things like (an when I say these things I don't mean just you) "Logan has more experience in hand to hand fighting" or "Abbadon could be big, but Logan is probably almost his size" and "Logan is quicker". If you believe those things to be true, then say so and provide evidence.
And before you say it, the GK story is not very sound. This is the reason I called you a fanboy. I have repeadily said that it wasn't a fair fight and that jazz, but you still hold onto it like it is the absolute end all to this conversation. It is in fact not, because it wasn't a fair fight. The GK didn't even know he was fighting.
Let me ask you this. If you were walking by me on the street, and you had no idea who I was, would you be prepared for the sucker punch I just aimed at your teeth? Probably not. You wouldn't be expecting it and even if you were normally quicker than I was, you probably won't be able to block it or put up a defense before the blow landed.
Now let's go to a different setting. I just called you out. You turn around and prepare to fight. You're in the mindset that we will be trading punches and are ready to both block and attack. Again, I throw a punch at your mouth. Chances are, you will block it, or at least have a better chance of blocking it this time than on the street.
Translate into the Logan vs Grey Knight match. See the resemblance? That's what I am getting at. You probably wouldn't call the first situation a fair fight would you? So you can't call the Logan v GK match a fair fight either.
Abbadon, so it seems, is about the size of Horus. Whether this was just natural growth, or through the influence of Chaos, I don't know but the evidence is in him using The Talon of Horus as if it were fit to his own hands. So while Chapter Masters may be larger than their marines, Abbadon is even larger.
Omegus wrote: It is specifically stated that Abaddon passed up many opportunities to ascend to Princehood, because that would limit his activities in the material realm and entangle him in the politics of the Great Game.
He lives to see the galaxy burn.
Living up to Horus dream....
Not exactly. Horus wanted to become the new Emperor. Abaddon wants to destroy everything the Imperium stands for.
The energised claw swung at Loken’s head, and he ducked, too late seeing it for the feint it was. Abaddon grabbed him by the edge of his shoulder guard and drove his knee into Loken’s stomach. Ceramite buckled and Loken felt pain knife into him as bones broke.
Abaddon released him and punched him in the face. He was thrown against the wall of the parliament, scorched plaster and brick falling around him.
‘The Warmaster wanted me to bring the Justaerin, but I told him it was an insult.’
Loken saw his sword lying on the floor beside him and slid down the wall to grab it. He pushed off the wall, pivoting past Abaddon’s slashing fist, swinging the blade towards the first captain’s face.
Abaddon blocked the blow with his forearm, reaching out to pluck Loken from his feet and hurl him towards the parliament building’s wall. The world spun away from him and suddenly there was pain.
His vision blurred as he smacked into the ground and shards of stone flew up around him. The pain within him felt strange, as if it belonged to someone else. It felt as if his back was broken and a treacherous voice in his mind whispered that the pain would go away if he just gave up and let it all go away in a fog of oblivion. His grip tightened on his sword and he let his anger fuel his strength to fight against the voice in his head that told him to give up.
A long time ago, Loken had sworn an oath to his Emperor, and that oath was never to give up, even as the moment of death approached. His vision swam back into focus, and he looked up to see the hole in the parliament house’s wall his body had smashed.
Loken rolled onto his front as Abaddon’s massive armoured form charged towards him, smashing aside the blackened remains of the breach.
He scrambled to his feet and backed away, letting Abaddon’s fist swing past him. He darted in, stabbing with his sword, but the thick plates of his enemy’s armour turned the blade aside. He scrambled back up the steps of the parliament house, hearing Torgaddon and Little Horus fighting within and knowing that he needed his brother’s strength to triumph.
‘You can’t run forever!’ roared Abaddon as he turned to follow him, his steps ponderous and heavy.
Spoiler:
Terminator armour was huge. It made a man into a walking tank, but what it added in protection, it lost in speed. Abaddon was skilful and could fight almost as fast as any other Astartes while clad in its thick plates.
But ‘almost’ wasn’t good enough when life or death was at stake.
Chunks of rubble spilled into the parliament house as Abaddon battered his way back inside, the brutal high-shouldered shape of his Terminator armour wreathed in chalky plaster dust. As Abaddon smashed his way back inside, he passed beneath a sagging portico that supported a vast swathe of sculpted marble statuary above. Loken struck out at one of the cracked pillars supporting the portico, the fluted support smashing apart under the power of the blow.
The parliament filled with dust as the huge slabs above came down on Abaddon, the entire weight of the statuary collapsing on top of the first captain. Loken could hear Abaddon roaring in anger as the stonework thundered down in a flurry of rubble and destruction.
He turned away from the avalanche of debris and fought his way through the billowing clouds of dust towards the centre of the parliament building.
Spoiler:
Abaddon’s free hand reached up and grabbed Loken’s wrist as Loken drove his chainsword towards Abaddon’s face.
The two warriors froze, locked face to face in a battle that would determine who lived and who died. Loken gritted his teeth and forced his arm down against Abaddon’s grip.
Abaddon looked into Loken’s face and saw the hatred and loss there.
‘There’s hope for you yet, Loken,’ he snarled.
Loken forced the roaring point of the sword down with more strength than he thought could ever inhabit one body. The betrayal of the Astartes – their very essence – flashed through Loken’s mind and he found the target of his hatred embodied in Abaddon’s violent features.
The chainblade’s teeth whirred. Abaddon forced the point down and it ripped into his breastplate. Sparks sprayed as Loken pushed the point onwards, through thick layers of ceramite. The sword juddered, but Loken kept it true.
He knew where it would break through, straight through the bone shield that protected Abaddon’s chest cavity and then into his heart.
Even as he savoured the idea of Abaddon’s death, [spoiler]the first captain smiled and pushed his hand upwards. Astartes battle plate enhanced a warrior’s strength, but Terminator armour boosted it to levels beyond belief, and Abaddon called upon that power to dislodge Loken.
Abaddon surged upwards from the rubble with a roar of anger and slammed his energized fist into Loken’s chest. His armour cracked open and the bone shield protecting his own chest cavity shattered into fragments. He staggered away from Abaddon, managing to keep his feet for a few seconds before his legs gave out and he collapsed to his knees, blood dribbling from his cracked lips in bloody ropes.
Here is a pretty much a whole fight...Abby vs Loken - you judge
and poor GKGM - he was just to slow....Logan would kill him 10/10 even if he had 24 hours to prepare and charge his stick for the duel...but I agree, Abby is more badass during the Heresy, again how he growled on Alphairus,like he was nothing....
As for as I can see, Abaddon dominated Loken for most of that fight. And it's not really fair to describe the GK as too slow when Logan attacked while pretending to surrender to them.
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
Nice...and @Ignatius stop fething around and read the damn book...Logan is a badass ,not so much as Abaddon true, but still coming to GKCM ( Wardish, best of the bestest ) calling him in a ******* and then slapping him silly is a damn good move....
and when someone comes to your face and call's you a bad name and then tries to punch you - DUCK first - dont try to counter him
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
Nice...and @Ignatius stop fething around and read the damn book...Logan is a badass ,not so much as Abaddon true, but still coming to GKCM ( Wardish, best of the bestest ) calling him in a ******* and then slapping him silly is a damn good move....
and when someone comes to your face and call's you a bad name and then tries to punch you - DUCK first - dont try to counter him
Easy. I never said anything bad about Logan. Not even once. I like him as a matter of fact. So don't make assumptions. You know what they say about those. All I did was tell people to think things through and not just immediately go with whoever you like more. I apologize for somehow fetching around. And by the way- different authors have different favorites. Everything is inflated and over the top in BL books as well as codecies. So Ward saying the GK were great had NO impact on that story and the way it played out.
No matter how you want to spin it, it wasn't a fair fight. At least I've framed my argument in a logical way.
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard, what context aren't you telling us?
Spoiler:
Grimnar nodded to their words, turning back to Joros and Kysnaros. ‘Tell me, which one of you whoresons gave the order to open fire on our shieldless, weaponless vessels?"
"It was I,’ said Joros. ‘It gave me no pleasure, but the deed was done for the greater good."
The jarl nodded. ‘I’ve marked your face, knight. I’ll remember it from now until the Wolftime. You have my word on that. No Fenrisian ever forgets one who violates the laws of sheathed blades and bared throats. Once those laws are broken, all rules of decorum and honour are abandoned. To betray a betrayer is never counted as a sin."
Kysnaros tied his long blond hair into a ponytail, keeping any stray strands from his face. ‘Enough of this. The Imperium’s woes will not bide while we stand here and make superstitious promises. Chapter Master Grimnar, you will surrender as agreed, and your Wolves will stand down.’
Jarl Grimnar gave us his canine smile again, showing wet fangs. ‘That,’ he said, ‘will not be happening.’
Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated. The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.
- The Emperor's Gift, Chapter 22.
Get upset.
Logan, went from leaning on his ax to covering 10 paces and cutting down a renowned duelist, before he could act. But what's more impressive is the opinion of the main character from The Emperor's Gift. Which after facing Deamon prince Angron and breaking his black sword. He calls Logan an "Unkillable Jarl".
Not to put Grimnar on Angron's level. It's just to add context to what else he had witnessed before coming to that opinion.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote: Guys, fluff wise Abaddon is HUGE. He is bigger than a normal Space Marine. In Shadow Point, he is standing next to his Terminator bodyguards and he stands a head taller than them. There is also a picture of him with some normal Black Legion CSM's and he stands a great deal larger than them. Abaddon, fluff wise, would absolutely crush Logan in a fist fight. However, I do think Logan would get a few good licks in before he died.
Fluff wise, Logan hunts five mile long kraken with nothing but a spear, loincloth, and his fists .Abaddons size makes little difference.
( the krakens tentacles are four times it's length)
Logan would probably beat Abaddon...realistically speaking though, as realistic and reasonable as you can be for a sci-fi/fantasy, Logan doesn't stand even a hope of a chance of winning.
One bit of context, I think is missing from the Emperor's Gift quote, It's was eistablished quite clearly both before and after, that Joros screwed up the entire situation with Logan, MASSIVLY underestimating the man in a pretty much textbook case of hubris,
That said, Logan's speed vs a random NPC, is pretty unimportant. let's compare him to Abby, both have plenty of impressive feats to name to them, we could go back and forth all week listing awesome feats they did.
At the end of the day however, GW gives Abby an init of 6 vs Logan's init of 5. thus according to Games workshop, Abbaddon is faster. (in weapons fight this gets even worse when you realize that to get an AP 2 weapon, Logan's init drops to 1)
Lysit wrote: At actual fisty cuffs? Im going to Favor Logan in that fight.
With all there fancy toys to murder each other? Abaddon 9 times out of 10.
Except for the part where Abaddon is Warmaster. Not only that but he no longer follows the code of honor that most Astartes stick by, or only pretends to follow if its beneficial to him. There is no way he would give Logan even a little chance. If Logan ever comes up against Abaddon it will never be by chance. And if they ever come across each other, Logans fate has already been determined.
Ok, yeah its a necro thread, but I think it's a fine question for faffing around with. Mods, give it a pass?
Generally I like failbaddon more than father Christmas but in straight up fisty cuffs, I think it's Logan.
Reasons: Abaddon fights in terminator armor for most of his life. All his training is for a slow, overwhelming fight where he is tougher than nails. He beats Loken a fair bit because of that armor advantage.
Logan is a wolf and they do massively stupid armor-less stuff all the time. I think he's a scrapper and that will serve him better in a classic boxing match.
Logan is a wolf and they do massively stupid armor-less stuff all the time. I think he's a scrapper and that will serve him better in a classic boxing match.
Plus Abaddon will be suffering withdrawal from lack of Chaos powers and Deamon weapon, Logan would definitely beat the crap out of him.
Frecklesonfire wrote: No other factors? so the 4 ruinous powers jacking Abaddon up are gone for the fist fight, doesn't matter Abaddon still has 10,000 years of great crusade experience, Horus heresy experience, black crusade experience.
I think some people forget that Abaddon is a ' Luna wolf ' . He has everything that Logan has. On the exception of space wolves have better senses. Luna wolves have the most endurance of all the legions. Even the perfectionists of Fulgrim's legion are exhausted trying to keep up.
Abaddon has 10,000 years of fighting and tactical experience. Logan doesn't.
Abaddon was on Ullanor with Horus slaying the Warboss. A most impressive feat of strength for even a first captain.
Abaddon fought back from a crushing advance from the loyalists and reclaimed the war masters body. And yet again had to reclaim the war masters body from the Emperors children within the eye.
Only the daemon primarchs have as much power as Abaddon
Abaddon also has been waging war in his terminator armor all this time. There really isn't a time that hes not in it, and even when terminator armor was fist issued to the legions Abaddon is super fast and quick footed in it, Loken makes a note of it on Istvan 3, Imagine if he wasn't wearing it how fast he would be.
If it was Logan Vs Abaddon in a boxing ring or a field, he would be on the ground so fast its not funny. Logan would be weaker, Logan would be exhausted, Logan would be slower, Logan would be intellectually outmatched, Logan is not as battle hardened as Abaddon.
I'm trying hard not to be a Abaddon fan boy, but lets be real.
I like abaddon and all, since I want to start a chaos army with him and chosen with lots of termis. (just epic)
But speed is not a problem. did you not read my comment that logan killed a GK supremme GM with 1 hit before he can even react, is that not fast? with all his psychic ability and mastery of the falchion and being the supreme GM he died to logan, also even a GK libby was beat by him. this libby shattered the demon sword of (the demon from the the first war of armorgedon).
Sorry i forget how to spell the names and exact details.
He killed the Supreme Grand Master becasue he wasn't ready for it. The act itself is heresy, attacking one of the Emperor's own. That is hardly testament to beating him in combat. In the hypothesised scenario, Abby and Santa Logan would be both ready and prepped for the fight. Backstabbing is not of any use here.
Frecklesonfire wrote: No other factors? so the 4 ruinous powers jacking Abaddon up are gone for the fist fight, doesn't matter Abaddon still has 10,000 years of great crusade experience, Horus heresy experience, black crusade experience.
I think some people forget that Abaddon is a ' Luna wolf ' . He has everything that Logan has. On the exception of space wolves have better senses. Luna wolves have the most endurance of all the legions. Even the perfectionists of Fulgrim's legion are exhausted trying to keep up.
Abaddon has 10,000 years of fighting and tactical experience. Logan doesn't.
Abaddon was on Ullanor with Horus slaying the Warboss. A most impressive feat of strength for even a first captain.
Abaddon fought back from a crushing advance from the loyalists and reclaimed the war masters body. And yet again had to reclaim the war masters body from the Emperors children within the eye.
Only the daemon primarchs have as much power as Abaddon
Abaddon also has been waging war in his terminator armor all this time. There really isn't a time that hes not in it, and even when terminator armor was fist issued to the legions Abaddon is super fast and quick footed in it, Loken makes a note of it on Istvan 3, Imagine if he wasn't wearing it how fast he would be.
If it was Logan Vs Abaddon in a boxing ring or a field, he would be on the ground so fast its not funny. Logan would be weaker, Logan would be exhausted, Logan would be slower, Logan would be intellectually outmatched, Logan is not as battle hardened as Abaddon.
I'm trying hard not to be a Abaddon fan boy, but lets be real.
I like abaddon and all, since I want to start a chaos army with him and chosen with lots of termis. (just epic)
But speed is not a problem. did you not read my comment that logan killed a GK supremme GM with 1 hit before he can even react, is that not fast? with all his psychic ability and mastery of the falchion and being the supreme GM he died to logan, also even a GK libby was beat by him. this libby shattered the demon sword of (the demon from the the first war of armorgedon).
Sorry i forget how to spell the names and exact details.
He killed the Supreme Grand Master becasue he wasn't ready for it. The act itself is heresy, attacking one of the Emperor's own. That is hardly testament to beating him in combat. In the hypothesised scenario, Abby and Santa Logan would be both ready and prepped for the fight. Backstabbing is not of any use here.
Considering that Logan Grimnar is
A: A Space Marine
B: A Chapter Master
C: Most importantly, A Space Wolf.
That plot armor is so powerful on the base Space Puppies that Abbadon will be beaten and then tossed out the airlock, he'll survive somehow due to the chaos gods but Logan won't even be scratched.
Abaddon beats Logan in every way.
As a commander, Abaddon has orchestrated a 10,000 year campaign against the Imperium with only 2 canonical defeats and it cumulated with the conquest of Segmentum Obscuras.
As a Warrior, Abaddon beat The Horus Clone and Sigismund, the greatest warrior in the great crusade.
In a straight up brawl, Abaddon was supposedly the strongest marine alive, able to use terminator armor like normal marines use power armor.
Easy, Huron Blackheart. While Grimnar and Abaddon punch each other, he takes the opportunity to highjack both their flagships and escape back to the Maelstrom. Dude has the second largest Chaos army after Abbadon, and billions of pirates and renegades to boot.
So , ´till now, the only advantage Abby have over Grimnar is the 10k years of veterany, yeah, 10k years relaying in the favors of the 4 chaos powers, and the reason he is always making offerings to them, because he know that even with 10k of experience he needs the extra punch of daddy´s chaos gods.
When the fight happen and Logan is face to face with Abby, you now, the 4 gods feel that the fight is a perfect test to mr. chaos pony tail and leave him without the backup of the chaos gifts, becaus you know they are the chaos gods and they are a s.
Clean fist against clean fist (and giant pony tail) i think Logan would win, because Logan relay in his strenght and cunning (as a feral wolf), and Abby relay to much on his chaos power to gain more power (like a hunter with a big rifle) but if he losee all the gifts given by the chaos is left like a naked baby in the woods ( the masquerade, anyone?) (so you take the big rifle and gear out of the hunter and you have nothing more than a scare man in the woods)
Ironically, power is the deafeat of Abby, all those power granted by the chaos would make him so confident to himself that will understimated Logan, but in the fight of pure an raw skill (without fancy claws or crazy daemons swords) Logan will overcome his adversary, thanks to his skill been developed figthing without relaying on fancy powers or equipent, Logan always win his fight by pure skill, strenght and cunning
PD: pardon the bad english, i had a long shift on my job
I'm going to go with the Despoiler on this one. I love Logan as much as the next SW fanboy, but there is no way any SM character can stand up to Abby. You can take away their armor, you can take away their weapons. But you can't take away their fight and Abby pretty much wins this hands down. I also find it pretty hard to believe that the Chaos Gods can turn on and off their gifts on a whim (or would even bother to do so). So any advantages the four big powers have given Abby, he takes them into battle.
Abbys crusades have all fallen because he is one man in a legion and what he needs is a Legion of one man.
Jayden63 wrote: I'm going to go with the Despoiler on this one. I love Logan as much as the next SW fanboy, but there is no way any SM character can stand up to Abby. You can take away their armor, you can take away their weapons. But you can't take away their fight and Abby pretty much wins this hands down. I also find it pretty hard to believe that the Chaos Gods can turn on and off their gifts on a whim (or would even bother to do so). So any advantages the four big powers have given Abby, he takes them into battle.
Abbys crusades have all fallen because he is one man in a legion and what he needs is a Legion of one man.
I'm not sure I'd say his crusades have fallen eaither. in all of the black crusades he's acheived his war aims. the Imperium just has a tendancy to when Abby gets what he wants and pulls out, to declare victory. in fairness a lot of the time they're in the dark what the crusade is really about.
Pandorax is a pretty good example, in small scale, of the black crusades really
I'm giving the win to Abby here, he has too many feats to deny his superiority. Just the fact he beat a clone of Horus, the person who put the Big E on his throne, speaks enough about his prowess.
I think its safe to say anyone. save a Primarch, isn't GUARANTEED to beat him.
Quickjager wrote: I'm giving the win to Abby here, he has too many feats to deny his superiority. Just the fact he beat a clone of Horus, the person who put the Big E on his throne, speaks enough about his prowess.
I think its safe to say anyone. save a Primarch, isn't GUARANTEED to beat him.
Draigo would defeat him with a single blow and not so much as a scratch. It's flat out stated that the Chaos gods themselves are not powerful enough to overcome Draigo within their own realms. Their pawn Abaddon wouldn't stand a chance.
Quickjager wrote: I'm giving the win to Abby here, he has too many feats to deny his superiority. Just the fact he beat a clone of Horus, the person who put the Big E on his throne, speaks enough about his prowess.
I think its safe to say anyone. save a Primarch, isn't GUARANTEED to beat him.
Draigo would defeat him with a single blow and not so much as a scratch. It's flat out stated that the Chaos gods themselves are not powerful enough to overcome Draigo within their own realms. Their pawn Abaddon wouldn't stand a chance.
A Submarine can sink a battleship, but a destroyer can sink a submarine, does this imply a destroyer is more powerful then a battleship?
Dragio is basicly a anti-deamon SPECIALIST. it does NOT stand to reason he'd nesscarily be able to pwn any chaos Marine simply because of his skill vs deamons.
Dragio vs abby would be a good fight, and eaither could win, that said Abby has the edge in terms of speed and skill according to their codex entries.
A guy called "the armless" against someone called "wolf wolf wolf something?" That's so far from a fair fight that Abby can just stay home and sulk instead. He's been useless for ten millennia, waiting for Logan to die of old age isn't going to make any difference.
Quickjager wrote: I'm giving the win to Abby here, he has too many feats to deny his superiority. Just the fact he beat a clone of Horus, the person who put the Big E on his throne, speaks enough about his prowess.
I think its safe to say anyone. save a Primarch, isn't GUARANTEED to beat him.
Draigo would defeat him with a single blow and not so much as a scratch. It's flat out stated that the Chaos gods themselves are not powerful enough to overcome Draigo within their own realms. Their pawn Abaddon wouldn't stand a chance.
Its not that. In the new Codex, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch is literally unable to see Draigo, and sees just a black mark where Draigo is. Nor can he predict anything Draigo does. The passage cites that Draigo's fate is promised to another, which is M'kar. In the same Codex, M'kar promises Draigo ten millenia of pain and torment. That's a prophecy/curse. Draigo can't die until 999M51.
Abaddon got whooped in single combat by Eldrad and had to get teleported away by the Gods to avoid being Fatality'd.
Logan Grimnar by comparison has speed-blitzed Grey Knights- specifically, beheading a Grey Knights Grandmaster with such speed that the other Grey Knights and Inquisitors in the room didn't comprehend that the Grand Master had just been decapitated until Grimnar was teleporting away back to his ship.
The matter is simple:
Who has the most intimidating beard? Logan Grimnar of course!
Abbadon is a hairless pussy eunuch and will therefore die from shock alone when faced with Grimnar's manliness.
BlaxicanX wrote: Abaddon got whooped in single combat by Eldrad and had to get teleported away by the Gods to avoid being Fatality'd.
Logan Grimnar by comparison has speed-blitzed Grey Knights- specifically, beheading a Grey Knights Grandmaster with such speed that the other Grey Knights and Inquisitors in the room didn't comprehend that the Grand Master had just been decapitated until Grimnar was teleporting away back to his ship.
/thread
you keep repeating that like his killing a man who under estimated Logan and idioticly expected him to maintain a flag of truce once broken was any great acheivement.
Iron_Captain wrote: The matter is simple:
Who has the most intimidating beard? Logan Grimnar of course!
Abbadon is a hairless pussy eunuch and will therefore die from shock alone when faced with Grimnar's manliness.
Logan's the one with the stupid sleigh and wolf-murder-claws.
Who's the manliest now, huh?
Iron_Captain wrote: The matter is simple:
Who has the most intimidating beard? Logan Grimnar of course!
Abbadon is a hairless pussy eunuch and will therefore die from shock alone when faced with Grimnar's manliness.
Logan's the one with the stupid sleigh and wolf-murder-claws.
Who's the manliest now, huh?
Well, that is a valid point...
Still, as long as Abbadon keeps on using that laughable hairstyle, he will always lose automatically. Unless Logan laughs himself to death upon seeing Abbadon's ridiculous hair tower of course. It is almost on the same level of silliness as old Nagash's hat
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
To each their own. Frankly, I'm in no mood to argue about it, so good day sir.
For some reason people expect Abby to be meeting Mr. Wolfie under a flag of truce and with his weapons sheathed. If a surprise attack on a idiot counts as a feat when your weapon is already drawn and his isn't then I believe we have more Heroes of the Imperium than you can shake a warding stave at.
If the Space Wolf standard is they way Logan acts, then that's sad, he may have a grasp of tactics, but if "MUH HONOR!!1!" is his motivation for the majority of his actions then we're probably going to see a repeat of the Battle of the Fang.
Oh wait.
If you ask me Bjorn The Fell-Handed has a better chance of beating Abby. But you don't see any SW nominating him! He hates the reverence people hold him with, he sees himself as a warrior, he hates the decorations the SW of the 40k era put on his chasis. He's got more experience than Logan, more firepower, tango-ed with a Primarch, and has saved the SW chapter more times than not.
Iron_Captain wrote: The matter is simple:
Who has the most intimidating beard? Logan Grimnar of course!
Abbadon is a hairless pussy eunuch and will therefore die from shock alone when faced with Grimnar's manliness.
Logan's the one with the stupid sleigh and wolf-murder-claws.
Who's the manliest now, huh?
Well, that is a valid point...
Still, as long as Abbadon keeps on using that laughable hairstyle, he will always lose automatically. Unless Logan laughs himself to death upon seeing Abbadon's ridiculous hair tower of course. It is almost on the same level of silliness as old Nagash's hat
Iron_Captain wrote: The matter is simple:
Who has the most intimidating beard? Logan Grimnar of course!
Abbadon is a hairless pussy eunuch and will therefore die from shock alone when faced with Grimnar's manliness.
Logan's the one with the stupid sleigh and wolf-murder-claws.
Who's the manliest now, huh?
Well, that is a valid point...
Still, as long as Abbadon keeps on using that laughable hairstyle, he will always lose automatically. Unless Logan laughs himself to death upon seeing Abbadon's ridiculous hair tower of course. It is almost on the same level of silliness as old Nagash's hat
Until Abaddon lets it down, forming a beard that puts the whole SW chapter to shame, who procede to slink away in shame.
Iron_Captain wrote: The matter is simple:
Who has the most intimidating beard? Logan Grimnar of course!
Abbadon is a hairless pussy eunuch and will therefore die from shock alone when faced with Grimnar's manliness.
Logan's the one with the stupid sleigh and wolf-murder-claws.
Who's the manliest now, huh?
Well, that is a valid point...
Still, as long as Abbadon keeps on using that laughable hairstyle, he will always lose automatically. Unless Logan laughs himself to death upon seeing Abbadon's ridiculous hair tower of course. It is almost on the same level of silliness as old Nagash's hat
What's wrong with the topknot?
Better ask what isn't wrong with it It is not a topknot, it is a toptower!
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
Which is proably why 7th Ed's GK codex has toned it down very slightly (for one thing not telling us anything about what he's doing in the warp. in fact he's only JUST been trapped there) I honestly don't think there's anything with the current fluff that is terriably "disregarding of canon" especially as the audio drama explains they had Mortorian's true name
purplefood wrote: Abbaddon would win but it's not like he'd do it easily...
Grimnar hasn't been chapter master of the SW for over 500 years for no reason...
What is harder, being chapter master of the SW or being warmaster of all of the Chaos forces in the eye, battling usurpers and treatury at the momenet notice?
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
Which is proably why 7th Ed's GK codex has toned it down very slightly (for one thing not telling us anything about what he's doing in the warp. in fact he's only JUST been trapped there) I honestly don't think there's anything with the current fluff that is terriably "disregarding of canon" especially as the audio drama explains they had Mortorian's true name
Just out of curiosity, what is Mortarion's true name? Is it "Mortarion"? Because that might explain why Ezekyle Abaddon doesn't want to be a daemon prince.
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
Which is proably why 7th Ed's GK codex has toned it down very slightly (for one thing not telling us anything about what he's doing in the warp. in fact he's only JUST been trapped there) I honestly don't think there's anything with the current fluff that is terriably "disregarding of canon" especially as the audio drama explains they had Mortorian's true name
Just out of curiosity, what is Mortarion's true name? Is it "Mortarion"? Because that might explain why Ezekyle Abaddon doesn't want to be a daemon prince.
I've not heard the audio drama first hand so I'm not sure they nesscarily spell it out, but no it's not. His true name is apparently the name the Emperor gave him.
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
Which is proably why 7th Ed's GK codex has toned it down very slightly (for one thing not telling us anything about what he's doing in the warp. in fact he's only JUST been trapped there) I honestly don't think there's anything with the current fluff that is terriably "disregarding of canon" especially as the audio drama explains they had Mortorian's true name
Just out of curiosity, what is Mortarion's true name? Is it "Mortarion"? Because that might explain why Ezekyle Abaddon doesn't want to be a daemon prince.
Mortarion is the name the tyrant on Barbarus gave him. Draigo knew the name the Emperor orginally intended to call him, his True Name.
Yes it is a character which was written by frankly a crappy writer, and completely disregards the lore and story of 40k
Abaddon, the chaos gods, the primarchs etc. have all been around for some time, each story being developed for 20 odd years in conjuction with the fluff
All completely disregarded in the manner of a few pen strokes.
Which is proably why 7th Ed's GK codex has toned it down very slightly (for one thing not telling us anything about what he's doing in the warp. in fact he's only JUST been trapped there) I honestly don't think there's anything with the current fluff that is terriably "disregarding of canon" especially as the audio drama explains they had Mortorian's true name
Just out of curiosity, what is Mortarion's true name? Is it "Mortarion"? Because that might explain why Ezekyle Abaddon doesn't want to be a daemon prince.
Mortarion is the name the tyrant on Barbarus gave him. Draigo knew the name the Emperor orginally intended to call him, his True Name.
I was kinda joking. I actually assumed his daemon true name would have been something bestowed upon him by Nurgle. If a daemon prince's true name is just his original mortal name then that's actually a very glaring weakness, and well... kinda dumb.
So assuming Ezekyle Abaddon is actually the Warmaster's given name that would be a very good reason for him to never ever become a daemon prince - he's so notorious your average imperial citizen would be able to banish him.
I suppose that depends on the nature of true names, I suspect in most cases someone's true name is not simply their birthname. in the case of the Primarchs however, because of how the Primarchs where created, by as much sorcery as science, it may be that the name the emperor intended for them thus was, due to the unique circumstances of what they are, what would become their true name
Corruption wrote: Straight up fisty cuff, no other factors. Who wins.
Just use their game stats. Straight up WS, Wounds, Initiative, Strength, and Attacks without benifit of armor saves unless it's an inate ability or skill. What does Math Hammer tell us?
Corruption wrote: Straight up fisty cuff, no other factors. Who wins.
Just use their game stats. Straight up WS, Wounds, Initiative, Strength, and Attacks without benifit of armor saves unless it's an inate ability or skill. What does Math Hammer tell us?
Corruption wrote: Straight up fisty cuff, no other factors. Who wins.
Just use their game stats. Straight up WS, Wounds, Initiative, Strength, and Attacks without benifit of armor saves unless it's an inate ability or skill. What does Math Hammer tell us?
Logan Grimnar's sleigh is his beard. Actually, anything below Logan's chin is his beard. And opponents treat area within 6' of Logan as beard and dangerous. That's how manly he is.
BrianDavion wrote: you keep repeating that like his killing a man who under estimated Logan and idioticly expected him to maintain a flag of truce once broken was any great acheivement.
You say this expecting me to care.
The Grand Master "underestimating" Logan is entirely irrelevant, considering he was looking right at Logan when he drew his weapon and proceeded to chop his head off. The Grand Master might not have been expecting Logan to attack him initially, but one would think that:
"Hmm, he's drawing his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's stepping toward me with his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's raising his huge fething axe while stepping toward me while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's swinging his huge fething axe at me while glaring at me"
would be a decent indication of Grimnar's intentions.
But it didn't matter, as Logan kjust killed him before he could react in any way.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
BrianDavion wrote: you keep repeating that like his killing a man who under estimated Logan and idioticly expected him to maintain a flag of truce once broken was any great acheivement.
You say this expecting me to care.
The Grand Master "underestimating" Logan is entirely irrelevant, considering he was looking right at Logan when he drew his weapon and proceeded to chop his head off. The Grand Master might not have been expecting Logan to attack him initially, but one would think that:
"Hmm, he's drawing his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's stepping toward me with his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's raising his huge fething axe while stepping toward me while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's swinging his huge fething axe at me while glaring at me"
would be a decent indication of Grimnar's intentions.
But it didn't matter, as Logan kjust killed him before he could react in any way.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
Come on, Dakka. Impress me.
The Math Hammer science is proven. Abbadon wins, game over.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
Come on, Dakka. Impress me.
Lol at the double standard. Abaddon ruins Loken, who cares about his armour. Logan was wearing his usual terminator gear when he cheapshotted the Grey Knight.
Also in the upcoming trilogy Abaddon kills someone much more impressive than this old wet dog.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
Come on, Dakka. Impress me.
Lol at the double standard. Abaddon ruins Loken, who cares about his armour. Logan was wearing his usual terminator gear when he cheapshotted the Grey Knight.
Also in the upcoming trilogy Abaddon kills someone much more impressive than this old wet dog.
It's almost certain that the two will oppose each other - the author has said as much - but we don't strictly know what happens or how. I mean, one of them is obviously still alive in the 41st millenium and the other one almost certainly isn't, so...
BrianDavion wrote: you keep repeating that like his killing a man who under estimated Logan and idioticly expected him to maintain a flag of truce once broken was any great acheivement.
You say this expecting me to care.
The Grand Master "underestimating" Logan is entirely irrelevant, considering he was looking right at Logan when he drew his weapon and proceeded to chop his head off. The Grand Master might not have been expecting Logan to attack him initially, but one would think that:
"Hmm, he's drawing his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's stepping toward me with his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's raising his huge fething axe while stepping toward me while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's swinging his huge fething axe at me while glaring at me"
would be a decent indication of Grimnar's intentions.
But it didn't matter, as Logan kjust killed him before he could react in any way.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
Come on, Dakka. Impress me.
What with the forces of the Imperium having pretty crazy plot armor, I'm pretty sure Abby would destroy a Grey Knights Grand Master.
He is literally The Warmaster of Chaos, what is Logan? Some old as dirt space marine, I'm sure he is powerful but Abby is just on another plane of power.
I don't think it would even be a solid fight if Logan wasn't a good guy and thus plot armor.
BrianDavion wrote: you keep repeating that like his killing a man who under estimated Logan and idioticly expected him to maintain a flag of truce once broken was any great acheivement.
You say this expecting me to care.
The Grand Master "underestimating" Logan is entirely irrelevant, considering he was looking right at Logan when he drew his weapon and proceeded to chop his head off. The Grand Master might not have been expecting Logan to attack him initially, but one would think that:
"Hmm, he's drawing his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's stepping toward me with his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's raising his huge fething axe while stepping toward me while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's swinging his huge fething axe at me while glaring at me"
would be a decent indication of Grimnar's intentions.
But it didn't matter, as Logan kjust killed him before he could react in any way.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
Come on, Dakka. Impress me.
What with the forces of the Imperium having pretty crazy plot armor, I'm pretty sure Abby would destroy a Grey Knights Grand Master.
He is literally The Warmaster of Chaos, what is Logan? Some old as dirt space marine, I'm sure he is powerful but Abby is just on another plane of power.
I don't think it would even be a solid fight if Logan wasn't a good guy and thus plot armor.
Abaddon has more plot armour than Logan has beard. Abaddon could have fought Loken literally stark naked with a stool sample and still won because of his plot armour.
Because he must lead the 13th Black Crusade we will never find out about. He literally cannot die until the Crusade is launched and we are frozen at a point in time just before that occurs.
Because he must lead the 13th Black Crusade we will never find out about. He literally cannot die until the Crusade is launched and we are frozen at a point in time just before that occurs.
That's irrelevant. Any feat he performs could just as well be due to his own skill and might.
BrianDavion wrote: you keep repeating that like his killing a man who under estimated Logan and idioticly expected him to maintain a flag of truce once broken was any great acheivement.
You say this expecting me to care.
The Grand Master "underestimating" Logan is entirely irrelevant, considering he was looking right at Logan when he drew his weapon and proceeded to chop his head off. The Grand Master might not have been expecting Logan to attack him initially, but one would think that:
"Hmm, he's drawing his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's stepping toward me with his huge fething axe while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's raising his huge fething axe while stepping toward me while glaring at me"
"Hmm, he's swinging his huge fething axe at me while glaring at me"
would be a decent indication of Grimnar's intentions.
But it didn't matter, as Logan kjust killed him before he could react in any way.
Meanwhile, who's Abaddon beaten again? He lost to a 10,000 year old Eldrad who's confirmed to be on his proverbial death-bed... would have lost to Loken had he not been wearing armor that made him completely invulnerable to Loken's attacks, any other feats of single combat worth nothing?
Come on, Dakka. Impress me.
What with the forces of the Imperium having pretty crazy plot armor, I'm pretty sure Abby would destroy a Grey Knights Grand Master.
He is literally The Warmaster of Chaos, what is Logan? Some old as dirt space marine, I'm sure he is powerful but Abby is just on another plane of power.
I don't think it would even be a solid fight if Logan wasn't a good guy and thus plot armor.
Abaddon has more plot armour than Logan has beard. Abaddon could have fought Loken literally stark naked with a stool sample and still won because of his plot armour.
Ok taking into account plot armor, nothing would happen because screw advancing storyline.
If we ignore both sides plot armor then Abby would rape due to the whole being the Warmaster of Chaos type situation, and Logan being an old space marine who has done some cool things in his time but was not pretty much second in command to the most honored space marine legion in history.
Well going by most recent books only one Chaos Primarch even will have the gall to stand up to Abadon and even that Primarch will eventually take a knee to him. So unless ADB makes Grimnar even more powerful in his next book. (maybe Grimnar takes down a Titan legion on his own or something) Then we can have a fairer fight
Right now we have a guy who can beat a Horus Clone and make ALL the other Primarchs in the eye follow him whether they are willing or not (according to ADB). So if Primarchs are pretty much not of worry to Abaddon, I would think Grimnar would be a joke for him to contemplate.
So doesn't that mean that no-one that we know can beat Abaddon?
Abbadon's base stats are better than Logan's base stats. Abbadon has a daemon weapon, which is going to be really rough to survive against. In armor/wargear or without armor/wargear, abbadon will win.
There are not many who can stand up to the dude, so it doesn't surprise me. I think Bjorn the Fell handed would be a better, and more fitting match.
CShaffer wrote: A better topic would be the GK Mary Sue VS. Abby
it's up to the dice on that one.
Abby is gonna hit more often,(and first) but at a lower STR and Dragio has a lower invul save. honestly in that fight it's anyone's guess.
Already playtested 10 times. Abaddon won all times. I elected for him to use Drachn'yen each time. Starting from 15" away, roll off for who goes first.
Outside 12" Draigo has the advantage with having 2 shots but Abaddon is more accurate. Inside 12" Abaddon dominates with the same number of shots as Draigo and more accurate due to TL. In the first round of combat Abaddon typically dishes out 2 or 3 unsaved wounds. Hatred + Rage + 4+D6 attacks hitting and wounding on a 3+ kills stuff hard.
Note I was using 6th Ed rules for psychic tests as it was much simpler and in fact easier for Draigo to cast powers. Banishment and GoI were largely useless kiting but its not a good strategy so I stuck to Purge Soul and hammerhand. Purge Soul rarely did anythinf but did knock a wound off once. Hammerhand did help a lot but it didn't make a difference.
Abaddon won all 10 matches in my testing. And that's assuming Abaddon doesn't defeat some scrub Sergeant and get a bonus.
CShaffer wrote: A better topic would be the GK Mary Sue VS. Abby
it's up to the dice on that one.
Abby is gonna hit more often,(and first) but at a lower STR and Dragio has a lower invul save. honestly in that fight it's anyone's guess.
Already playtested 10 times. Abaddon won all times. I elected for him to use Drachn'yen each time. Starting from 15" away, roll off for who goes first.
Outside 12" Draigo has the advantage with having 2 shots but Abaddon is more accurate. Inside 12" Abaddon dominates with the same number of shots as Draigo and more accurate due to TL. In the first round of combat Abaddon typically dishes out 2 or 3 unsaved wounds. Hatred + Rage + 4+D6 attacks hitting and wounding on a 3+ kills stuff hard.
Note I was using 6th Ed rules for psychic tests as it was much simpler and in fact easier for Draigo to cast powers. Banishment and GoI were largely useless kiting but its not a good strategy so I stuck to Purge Soul and hammerhand. Purge Soul rarely did anythinf but did knock a wound off once. Hammerhand did help a lot but it didn't make a difference.
Abaddon won all 10 matches in my testing. And that's assuming Abaddon doesn't defeat some scrub Sergeant and get a bonus.
Prefered enemy really helps Abbaddon against SM heros. Beast + PE is just hard to counter. He occationally has trouble with some xenos but rarely with SMs.
CShaffer wrote: A better topic would be the GK Mary Sue VS. Abby
it's up to the dice on that one.
Abby is gonna hit more often,(and first) but at a lower STR and Dragio has a lower invul save. honestly in that fight it's anyone's guess.
Already playtested 10 times. Abaddon won all times. I elected for him to use Drachn'yen each time. Starting from 15" away, roll off for who goes first.
Outside 12" Draigo has the advantage with having 2 shots but Abaddon is more accurate. Inside 12" Abaddon dominates with the same number of shots as Draigo and more accurate due to TL. In the first round of combat Abaddon typically dishes out 2 or 3 unsaved wounds. Hatred + Rage + 4+D6 attacks hitting and wounding on a 3+ kills stuff hard.
Note I was using 6th Ed rules for psychic tests as it was much simpler and in fact easier for Draigo to cast powers. Banishment and GoI were largely useless kiting but its not a good strategy so I stuck to Purge Soul and hammerhand. Purge Soul rarely did anythinf but did knock a wound off once. Hammerhand did help a lot but it didn't make a difference.
Abaddon won all 10 matches in my testing. And that's assuming Abaddon doesn't defeat some scrub Sergeant and get a bonus.
Prefered enemy really helps Abbaddon against SM heros. Beast + PE is just hard to counter. He occationally has trouble with some xenos but rarely with SMs.
Abaddon was entirely designed to kill Marines, no question. On one hand (lol) he has a lightning claw that ID's MEQ, in the other he murders TEQ with loads of AP2 attacks. He's faster, tougher, more skilled, more killy, than basically any Marine character. He has Hatred against them (reroll all hits on the first round) and preferred enemy (reroll all to-hit and wound rolls of 1, which is more for Drachnyen than the Talon).
He is a literal CC beast. Very few characters can actually go toe to toe, the Swarmlord and a zmSS Overlord springing to mind.
I am a huge fan of the space wolves myself, and of grimnar, but in all honest and respect to the space wolves, it just got to give it to abbadon. All astartes are geneticly modified with an organ called an ossmodula. The ossmodula stimulates bone growth, so as a space marine gets older he grows instead of the human body habit to shrink. Many space marine veterans who have fought for a few hundred years have grown 9-10 feet tall. After 10,000 years, abbadon should be at least the size of a primarch, he is tainted by the warp which I don't know how it would effect the organs function. If the ossmodula works how I think it is, Logan won't stand a chance, because abbadon has a huge advantage in size, maybe a better match up is pretty heresy abbadon vs grimnar
suck my 9 !
s.
the masquerade, anyone?) (so you take the big rifle and gear out of the hunter and you have nothing more than a scare man in the woods)
