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Marthike wrote: All of you people saying abaddon has 10,000 years of battle experince is WRONG.
He live in the warp, time there is different for him. And I don't know if chaos makes him immortal but most space marine have a shelf life and that why so many of them want to be demon princes. Also why has abaddon not assended to being a demon prince if his that bad ass?
Fluff wise the chaos gods don't all that support him yet. Not like you think all chaos gods are watching him like his their "son", they probably pay no attension to him most of the time.
I did not compare kaldor draigo with logan but logan is probably as good as him consider the feats he has done.
fluff by fluff logan is no weaker than abaddon.
This is also a fist fight both of them basicly fight in termi armour 24/7. Abaddon do not for sure have more experince since he lives in the warp so no one knows how old he is.
And lastly people keeps comparing weapons, if you guys say abaddon's weapons are all that better than logan that means without them abaddon is not all that awesome?
Also SPEED read this bit from the BOOK:
"The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frecklesonfire wrote: I also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously??
Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Try to hide your fanboy ism a little better. It will help your arguement.
This is almost all assumptions with almost no supporting evidence from an objective source.
Didn't you learn that just because x beats y, and y beats z, it doesn't mean that x beats z.
Logan beat a GK Grandmaster that didn't even know they were fighting. If it was a fair fight, it may have turned out differently. Stop making assumptions. Also, a GK grandmaster AND dozens of paladins barely beat Angron. That's hardly the resounding 1 v 1 victory you are claiming. GK Grandmaster plus a even just a dozen paladins beats Logan, so no. Try again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 18:10:48
Marthike wrote: All of you people saying abaddon has 10,000 years of battle experince is WRONG.
He live in the warp, time there is different for him. And I don't know if chaos makes him immortal but most space marine have a shelf life and that why so many of them want to be demon princes. Also why has abaddon not assended to being a demon prince if his that bad ass?
Fluff wise the chaos gods don't all that support him yet. Not like you think all chaos gods are watching him like his their "son", they probably pay no attension to him most of the time.
I did not compare kaldor draigo with logan but logan is probably as good as him consider the feats he has done.
fluff by fluff logan is no weaker than abaddon.
This is also a fist fight both of them basicly fight in termi armour 24/7. Abaddon do not for sure have more experince since he lives in the warp so no one knows how old he is.
And lastly people keeps comparing weapons, if you guys say abaddon's weapons are all that better than logan that means without them abaddon is not all that awesome?
Also SPEED read this bit from the BOOK:
"The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frecklesonfire wrote: I also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously??
Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....
i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.
This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.
Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.
Try to hide your fanboy ism a little better. It will help your arguement.
This is almost all assumptions with almost no supporting evidence from an objective source.
Didn't you learn that just because x beats y, and y beats z, it doesn't mean that x beats z.
Logan beat a GK Grandmaster that didn't even know they were fighting. If it was a fair fight, it may have turned out differently. Stop making assumptions. Also, a GK grandmaster AND dozens of paladins barely beat Angron. That's hardly the resounding 1 v 1 victory you are claiming. GK Grandmaster plus a even just a dozen paladins beats Logan, so no. Try again.
same for you - Try to hide your fanboy ism a little better - Logan stomped him fair and square
ooo and Abby is like Abby> Logan & any other chaptermaster > GK grandmaster..try again
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
It is specifically stated that Abaddon passed up many opportunities to ascend to Princehood, because that would limit his activities in the material realm and entangle him in the politics of the Great Game.
He lives to see the galaxy burn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 21:59:15
Omegus wrote: It is specifically stated that Abaddon passed up many opportunities to ascend to Princehood, because that would limit his activities in the material realm and entangle him in the politics of the Great Game.
He lives to see the galaxy burn.
Living up to Horus dream....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/22 23:28:14
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
why are people saying, " try to hide your fanboyism " who cares? just because your a fan of a chapter or a epic character wont make your argument more liable. Facts are facts, and at the end of the day Matt ward is an arse. And in a fair fight Logan probably wouldnt beat a GKGM so easily, thats a credible fact, GKGM are not push overs like some people are claiming, and Logan even tho super cool, is not as bad ass, all compared to Abaddon. suck my 9 !
"There is no escape from chaos, it marks us all." "Only i can hear your prayers here my friend, and i'm afraid i will not answer them." "It must be magnificent to see a planet writhe and scream to feel it compulse beneath your own feet, witness it dying with living eyes such marvelous spectacle, the skulls are my gift, in time perhaps i will share this gift with every living soul in the galaxy."
2012/08/23 03:22:46
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Frecklesonfire wrote: why are people saying, " try to hide your fanboyism " who cares? just because your a fan of a chapter or a epic character wont make your argument more liable. Facts are facts, and at the end of the day Matt ward is an arse. And in a fair fight Logan probably wouldnt beat a GKGM so easily, thats a credible fact, GKGM are not push overs like some people are claiming, and Logan even tho super cool, is not as bad ass, all compared to Abaddon. suck my 9 !
Being a fanboy of something drastically changes your perception things. It makes you write posts ten Paragraphs long with no substance to it at all but completely denying something that may be right in front of you.
I'm not being a fanboy. Nothing I've state so far has been fanboyism. I've told people to think things through and stop making assumptions. Like stated above, facts are facts. When fanboyism gets in the way of thinking these facts through.
If you think Logan would win, fine. But give answers with substance to it. Not just "well space wolves are better bar fighters just because, and Logan is awesome. So he wins". Or thinking that sucker axing someone in the chest is fair and square.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 03:24:05
2012/08/23 04:54:39
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Frecklesonfire wrote: why are people saying, " try to hide your fanboyism " who cares? just because your a fan of a chapter or a epic character wont make your argument more liable. Facts are facts, and at the end of the day Matt ward is an arse. And in a fair fight Logan probably wouldnt beat a GKGM so easily, thats a credible fact, GKGM are not push overs like some people are claiming, and Logan even tho super cool, is not as bad ass, all compared to Abaddon. suck my 9 !
Being a fanboy of something drastically changes your perception things. It makes you write posts ten Paragraphs long with no substance to it at all but completely denying something that may be right in front of you.
I'm not being a fanboy. Nothing I've state so far has been fanboyism. I've told people to think things through and stop making assumptions. Like stated above, facts are facts. When fanboyism gets in the way of thinking these facts through.
If you think Logan would win, fine. But give answers with substance to it. Not just "well space wolves are better bar fighters just because, and Logan is awesome. So he wins". Or thinking that sucker axing someone in the chest is fair and square.
Why Am I being a fanboy? If I an a fan boy I am more of a GK fanboy since the only books and fluff I have full knwlage to are the GKs. I Have all codex fluff and what I can find on the internet and nothing really puts abaddon to be any better than logan.
Also my comparisson was a example to show that atleast I did some comparisson instead of someone just saying " abaddon is better because he just is. FOR CHOAS" I think there is alot of chaos fanboism here too you know?
No substance is your opinion not everyone's so stop trying to make it sound like it is. Lastly, what have you actully said? all you said is to criticise me but said nothing about the actual topic who would win. (Not on this page anyway)
Logan beat a GKGM probably full expecting it, if you read the whole section that was quoted. I just used the part that shows logan is faster than the GM. All my "assumptions" are atleast based on something written down, the only detailed book I know that talked about logan this much.
If there are any book extracts about abaddon please feel free to point me to it and I will read it and judge just how good abaddon is.
All I read now is that the chaos good like him. His the 1st captain of the luna wolfs. His larger than a normal terminator. (which chapter master isn't, they are all portait as been stronger larger and faster than the normal terminators)
He fought and survived that huge ork warboss and his guards. He fought loken. (if someone can tell me where this bit come from which book i would like to go read it)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 05:05:02
2012/08/23 06:13:42
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
He dominated Loken in Galaxy of Flames, albeit while wearing Terminator armour.
And no, hitting a GKGM in the chest with an axe when the GK didn't have his weapon drawn does not equate to "GK was fully expecting it and it was a fair fight".
It's a decent feat, but not as nice as you were making it to be, and certainly not enough to suggest Logan is even in the same ballpark as the characters you were trying to compare him to (You know who they are).
2012/08/23 06:19:48
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Logan beat a GKGM probably full expecting it, if you read the whole section that was quoted. I just used the part that shows logan is faster than the GM. All my "assumptions" are atleast based on something written down, the only detailed book I know that talked about logan this much.
If there are any book extracts about abaddon please feel free to point me to it and I will read it and judge just how good abaddon is.
All I read now is that the chaos good like him. His the 1st captain of the luna wolfs. His larger than a normal terminator. (which chapter master isn't, they are all portait as been stronger larger and faster than the normal terminators)
He fought and survived that huge ork warboss and his guards. He fought loken. (if someone can tell me where this bit come from which book i would like to go read it)
He fought Loken in Galaxy of Flames by Ben Counter, he's also been in the books Horus Rising, False Gods.
He's also big enough that the Horus Talons are normal sized to him, which they were designed personally for his much larger than average Primarch who was close to the emporer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 06:21:44
Your talking about three guys whos most recent fluff is written by Matt Ward.... I'm going to call their greatness over inflated. Abaddon has old fluff history of being a total badass back when the feats of the Astarties was much more calm (yet still impressive).
Fair enough. Yeah, I realized they were all from Ward's books as I wrote it, hah.
Playing: Droids (Legion), Starks (ASOIAF), BB2
Working on: Starks (ASOIAF), Twilight Kin (KoW). Droids (Legion)
2012/08/23 12:19:17
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
THE ENERGISED CLAW swung at Loken’s head, and he ducked, too late seeing it for the feint it was. Abaddon grabbed him by the edge of his shoulder guard and drove his knee into Loken’s stomach. Ceramite buckled and Loken felt pain knife into him as bones broke.
Abaddon released him and punched him in the face. He was thrown against the wall of the parliament, scorched plaster and brick falling around him.
‘The Warmaster wanted me to bring the Justaerin, but I told him it was an insult.’
Loken saw his sword lying on the floor beside him and slid down the wall to grab it. He pushed off the wall, pivoting past Abaddon’s slashing fist, swinging the blade towards the first captain’s face.
Abaddon blocked the blow with his forearm, reaching out to pluck Loken from his feet and hurl him towards the parliament building’s wall. The world spun away from him and suddenly there was pain.
His vision blurred as he smacked into the ground and shards of stone flew up around him. The pain within him felt strange, as if it belonged to someone else. It felt as if his back was broken and a treacherous voice in his mind whispered that the pain would go away if he just gave up and let it all go away in a fog of oblivion. His grip tightened on his sword and he let his anger fuel his strength to fight against the voice in his head that told him to give up.
A long time ago, Loken had sworn an oath to his Emperor, and that oath was never to give up, even as the moment of death approached. His vision swam back into focus, and he looked up to see the hole in the parliament house’s wall his body had smashed.
Loken rolled onto his front as Abaddon’s massive armoured form charged towards him, smashing aside the blackened remains of the breach.
He scrambled to his feet and backed away, letting Abaddon’s fist swing past him. He darted in, stabbing with his sword, but the thick plates of his enemy’s armour turned the blade aside. He scrambled back up the steps of the parliament house, hearing Torgaddon and Little Horus fighting within and knowing that he needed his brother’s strength to triumph.
‘You can’t run forever!’ roared Abaddon as he turned to follow him, his steps ponderous and heavy.
Spoiler:
TERMINATOR ARMOUR WAS huge. It made a man into a walking tank, but what it added in protection, it lost in speed. Abaddon was skilful and could fight almost as fast as any other Astartes while clad in its thick plates.
But ‘almost’ wasn’t good enough when life or death was at stake.
Chunks of rubble spilled into the parliament house as Abaddon battered his way back inside, the brutal high-shouldered shape of his Terminator armour wreathed in chalky plaster dust. As Abaddon smashed his way back inside, he passed beneath a sagging portico that supported a vast swathe of sculpted marble statuary above. Loken struck out at one of the cracked pillars supporting the portico, the fluted support smashing apart under the power of the blow.
The parliament filled with dust as the huge slabs above came down on Abaddon, the entire weight of the statuary collapsing on top of the first captain. Loken could hear Abaddon roaring in anger as the stonework thundered down in a flurry of rubble and destruction.
He turned away from the avalanche of debris and fought his way through the billowing clouds of dust towards the centre of the parliament building.
Spoiler:
Abaddon’s free hand reached up and grabbed Loken’s wrist as Loken drove his chainsword towards Abaddon’s face.
The two warriors froze, locked face to face in a battle that would determine who lived and who died. Loken gritted his teeth and forced his arm down against Abaddon’s grip.
Abaddon looked into Loken’s face and saw the hatred and loss there.
‘There’s hope for you yet, Loken,’ he snarled.
Loken forced the roaring point of the sword down with more strength than he thought could ever inhabit one body. The betrayal of the Astartes – their very essence – flashed through Loken’s mind and he found the target of his hatred embodied in Abaddon’s violent features.
The chainblade’s teeth whirred. Abaddon forced the point down and it ripped into his breastplate. Sparks sprayed as Loken pushed the point onwards, through thick layers of ceramite. The sword juddered, but Loken kept it true.
He knew where it would break through, straight through the bone shield that protected Abaddon’s chest cavity and then into his heart.
Even as he savoured the idea of Abaddon’s death, [spoiler]the first captain smiled and pushed his hand upwards. Astartes battle plate enhanced a warrior’s strength, but Terminator armour boosted it to levels beyond belief, and Abaddon called upon that power to dislodge Loken.
Abaddon surged upwards from the rubble with a roar of anger and slammed his energized fist into Loken’s chest. His armour cracked open and the bone shield protecting his own chest cavity shattered into fragments. He staggered away from Abaddon, managing to keep his feet for a few seconds before his legs gave out and he collapsed to his knees, blood dribbling from his cracked lips in bloody ropes.
Here is a pretty much a whole fight...Abby vs Loken - you judge
and poor GKGM - he was just to slow....Logan would kill him 10/10 even if he had 24 hours to prepare and charge his stick for the duel...but I agree, Abby is more badass during the Heresy, again how he growled on Alphairus,like he was nothing....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Where did this growling down Alpharius come from. Iv not read that. Worth a read?
"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponents fate."
Sun Tzu
http://s1.zetaboards.com/New_Badab/index/
JOIN THE ETERNAL WAR. SAY YOU FOLLOWED MY LINK IN YOUR INTRODUCTION TO HELP TZEENTCHS CAUSE.
Eetion wrote: Where did this growling down Alpharius come from. Iv not read that. Worth a read?
Deliverance lost I' think,moment when Alpharius came to Horus to justify his actions
Spoiler:
Letting RG slip free
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/23 18:41:19
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/23 18:41:56
Why Am I being a fanboy? If I an a fan boy I am more of a GK fanboy since the only books and fluff I have full knwlage to are the GKs. I Have all codex fluff and what I can find on the internet and nothing really puts abaddon to be any better than logan.
Also my comparisson was a example to show that atleast I did some comparisson instead of someone just saying " abaddon is better because he just is. FOR CHOAS" I think there is alot of chaos fanboism here too you know?
No substance is your opinion not everyone's so stop trying to make it sound like it is. Lastly, what have you actully said? all you said is to criticise me but said nothing about the actual topic who would win. (Not on this page anyway)
Logan beat a GKGM probably full expecting it, if you read the whole section that was quoted. I just used the part that shows logan is faster than the GM. All my "assumptions" are atleast based on something written down, the only detailed book I know that talked about logan this much.
If there are any book extracts about abaddon please feel free to point me to it and I will read it and judge just how good abaddon is.
All I read now is that the chaos good like him. His the 1st captain of the luna wolfs. His larger than a normal terminator. (which chapter master isn't, they are all portait as been stronger larger and faster than the normal terminators)
He fought and survived that huge ork warboss and his guards. He fought loken. (if someone can tell me where this bit come from which book i would like to go read it)
I've made my point, which was show which side I supported. Everything that I was going to say had already been said, so there is no point in me just repeating it. I wouldn't have been of any use to the conversation. I can be of use by challenging the other side to see if the basis for their arguement is in fact solid. Which it didn't appear to me. When I challenged those arguments by asking seemingly insulting questions, the only answers I got were assumptions and not a lot of information. Things like (an when I say these things I don't mean just you) "Logan has more experience in hand to hand fighting" or "Abbadon could be big, but Logan is probably almost his size" and "Logan is quicker". If you believe those things to be true, then say so and provide evidence.
And before you say it, the GK story is not very sound. This is the reason I called you a fanboy. I have repeadily said that it wasn't a fair fight and that jazz, but you still hold onto it like it is the absolute end all to this conversation. It is in fact not, because it wasn't a fair fight. The GK didn't even know he was fighting.
Let me ask you this. If you were walking by me on the street, and you had no idea who I was, would you be prepared for the sucker punch I just aimed at your teeth? Probably not. You wouldn't be expecting it and even if you were normally quicker than I was, you probably won't be able to block it or put up a defense before the blow landed.
Now let's go to a different setting. I just called you out. You turn around and prepare to fight. You're in the mindset that we will be trading punches and are ready to both block and attack. Again, I throw a punch at your mouth. Chances are, you will block it, or at least have a better chance of blocking it this time than on the street.
Translate into the Logan vs Grey Knight match. See the resemblance? That's what I am getting at. You probably wouldn't call the first situation a fair fight would you? So you can't call the Logan v GK match a fair fight either.
Abbadon, so it seems, is about the size of Horus. Whether this was just natural growth, or through the influence of Chaos, I don't know but the evidence is in him using The Talon of Horus as if it were fit to his own hands. So while Chapter Masters may be larger than their marines, Abbadon is even larger.
Omegus wrote: It is specifically stated that Abaddon passed up many opportunities to ascend to Princehood, because that would limit his activities in the material realm and entangle him in the politics of the Great Game.
He lives to see the galaxy burn.
Living up to Horus dream....
Not exactly. Horus wanted to become the new Emperor. Abaddon wants to destroy everything the Imperium stands for.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
2012/08/23 20:09:48
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
The energised claw swung at Loken’s head, and he ducked, too late seeing it for the feint it was. Abaddon grabbed him by the edge of his shoulder guard and drove his knee into Loken’s stomach. Ceramite buckled and Loken felt pain knife into him as bones broke.
Abaddon released him and punched him in the face. He was thrown against the wall of the parliament, scorched plaster and brick falling around him.
‘The Warmaster wanted me to bring the Justaerin, but I told him it was an insult.’
Loken saw his sword lying on the floor beside him and slid down the wall to grab it. He pushed off the wall, pivoting past Abaddon’s slashing fist, swinging the blade towards the first captain’s face.
Abaddon blocked the blow with his forearm, reaching out to pluck Loken from his feet and hurl him towards the parliament building’s wall. The world spun away from him and suddenly there was pain.
His vision blurred as he smacked into the ground and shards of stone flew up around him. The pain within him felt strange, as if it belonged to someone else. It felt as if his back was broken and a treacherous voice in his mind whispered that the pain would go away if he just gave up and let it all go away in a fog of oblivion. His grip tightened on his sword and he let his anger fuel his strength to fight against the voice in his head that told him to give up.
A long time ago, Loken had sworn an oath to his Emperor, and that oath was never to give up, even as the moment of death approached. His vision swam back into focus, and he looked up to see the hole in the parliament house’s wall his body had smashed.
Loken rolled onto his front as Abaddon’s massive armoured form charged towards him, smashing aside the blackened remains of the breach.
He scrambled to his feet and backed away, letting Abaddon’s fist swing past him. He darted in, stabbing with his sword, but the thick plates of his enemy’s armour turned the blade aside. He scrambled back up the steps of the parliament house, hearing Torgaddon and Little Horus fighting within and knowing that he needed his brother’s strength to triumph.
‘You can’t run forever!’ roared Abaddon as he turned to follow him, his steps ponderous and heavy.
Spoiler:
Terminator armour was huge. It made a man into a walking tank, but what it added in protection, it lost in speed. Abaddon was skilful and could fight almost as fast as any other Astartes while clad in its thick plates.
But ‘almost’ wasn’t good enough when life or death was at stake.
Chunks of rubble spilled into the parliament house as Abaddon battered his way back inside, the brutal high-shouldered shape of his Terminator armour wreathed in chalky plaster dust. As Abaddon smashed his way back inside, he passed beneath a sagging portico that supported a vast swathe of sculpted marble statuary above. Loken struck out at one of the cracked pillars supporting the portico, the fluted support smashing apart under the power of the blow.
The parliament filled with dust as the huge slabs above came down on Abaddon, the entire weight of the statuary collapsing on top of the first captain. Loken could hear Abaddon roaring in anger as the stonework thundered down in a flurry of rubble and destruction.
He turned away from the avalanche of debris and fought his way through the billowing clouds of dust towards the centre of the parliament building.
Spoiler:
Abaddon’s free hand reached up and grabbed Loken’s wrist as Loken drove his chainsword towards Abaddon’s face.
The two warriors froze, locked face to face in a battle that would determine who lived and who died. Loken gritted his teeth and forced his arm down against Abaddon’s grip.
Abaddon looked into Loken’s face and saw the hatred and loss there.
‘There’s hope for you yet, Loken,’ he snarled.
Loken forced the roaring point of the sword down with more strength than he thought could ever inhabit one body. The betrayal of the Astartes – their very essence – flashed through Loken’s mind and he found the target of his hatred embodied in Abaddon’s violent features.
The chainblade’s teeth whirred. Abaddon forced the point down and it ripped into his breastplate. Sparks sprayed as Loken pushed the point onwards, through thick layers of ceramite. The sword juddered, but Loken kept it true.
He knew where it would break through, straight through the bone shield that protected Abaddon’s chest cavity and then into his heart.
Even as he savoured the idea of Abaddon’s death, [spoiler]the first captain smiled and pushed his hand upwards. Astartes battle plate enhanced a warrior’s strength, but Terminator armour boosted it to levels beyond belief, and Abaddon called upon that power to dislodge Loken.
Abaddon surged upwards from the rubble with a roar of anger and slammed his energized fist into Loken’s chest. His armour cracked open and the bone shield protecting his own chest cavity shattered into fragments. He staggered away from Abaddon, managing to keep his feet for a few seconds before his legs gave out and he collapsed to his knees, blood dribbling from his cracked lips in bloody ropes.
Here is a pretty much a whole fight...Abby vs Loken - you judge
and poor GKGM - he was just to slow....Logan would kill him 10/10 even if he had 24 hours to prepare and charge his stick for the duel...but I agree, Abby is more badass during the Heresy, again how he growled on Alphairus,like he was nothing....
As for as I can see, Abaddon dominated Loken for most of that fight. And it's not really fair to describe the GK as too slow when Logan attacked while pretending to surrender to them.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
2012/08/23 20:17:18
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
Nice...and @Ignatius stop fething around and read the damn book...Logan is a badass ,not so much as Abaddon true, but still coming to GKCM ( Wardish, best of the bestest ) calling him in a ******* and then slapping him silly is a damn good move....
and when someone comes to your face and call's you a bad name and then tries to punch you - DUCK first - dont try to counter him
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
2012/08/24 01:06:43
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Abaddon strikes first regardless. 1/6 chance of hitting himself, has an average of 7.5 attacks per turn. 5 hits, 4.17 wounds, 2.13 unsaved wounds.
Logan gets +1 attack once per game and has Preferred Enemy. 6 Attacks, 5.3 hits, 4.42 wounds, 2.21 unsaved wounds.
Logan has less wounds so he should lose in round 1 if Abaddon rolls a 6 and gets 10 attacks, or round 2 if Abaddon rolls poorly. Abaddon should win the majority of the time (4/5), but the odds of him striking himself increase as the fight goes on. Should he roll a 1 in round 1 or 2 he will probably lose.
Logan makes up for his comparable lack in melee by being a superior force multiplier.
Nice...and @Ignatius stop fething around and read the damn book...Logan is a badass ,not so much as Abaddon true, but still coming to GKCM ( Wardish, best of the bestest ) calling him in a ******* and then slapping him silly is a damn good move....
and when someone comes to your face and call's you a bad name and then tries to punch you - DUCK first - dont try to counter him
Easy. I never said anything bad about Logan. Not even once. I like him as a matter of fact. So don't make assumptions. You know what they say about those. All I did was tell people to think things through and not just immediately go with whoever you like more. I apologize for somehow fetching around. And by the way- different authors have different favorites. Everything is inflated and over the top in BL books as well as codecies. So Ward saying the GK were great had NO impact on that story and the way it played out.
No matter how you want to spin it, it wasn't a fair fight. At least I've framed my argument in a logical way.
Game rules have no bearing on this discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/24 01:08:55
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard, what context aren't you telling us?
Spoiler:
Grimnar nodded to their words, turning back to Joros and Kysnaros. ‘Tell me, which one of you whoresons gave the order to open fire on our shieldless, weaponless vessels?"
"It was I,’ said Joros. ‘It gave me no pleasure, but the deed was done for the greater good."
The jarl nodded. ‘I’ve marked your face, knight. I’ll remember it from now until the Wolftime. You have my word on that. No Fenrisian ever forgets one who violates the laws of sheathed blades and bared throats. Once those laws are broken, all rules of decorum and honour are abandoned. To betray a betrayer is never counted as a sin."
Kysnaros tied his long blond hair into a ponytail, keeping any stray strands from his face. ‘Enough of this. The Imperium’s woes will not bide while we stand here and make superstitious promises. Chapter Master Grimnar, you will surrender as agreed, and your Wolves will stand down.’
Jarl Grimnar gave us his canine smile again, showing wet fangs. ‘That,’ he said, ‘will not be happening.’
Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated. The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.
And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.
- The Emperor's Gift, Chapter 22.
Get upset.
Logan, went from leaning on his ax to covering 10 paces and cutting down a renowned duelist, before he could act. But what's more impressive is the opinion of the main character from The Emperor's Gift. Which after facing Deamon prince Angron and breaking his black sword. He calls Logan an "Unkillable Jarl".
Not to put Grimnar on Angron's level. It's just to add context to what else he had witnessed before coming to that opinion.
2014/09/05 05:53:11
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
TheCrazyCryptek wrote: Guys, fluff wise Abaddon is HUGE. He is bigger than a normal Space Marine. In Shadow Point, he is standing next to his Terminator bodyguards and he stands a head taller than them. There is also a picture of him with some normal Black Legion CSM's and he stands a great deal larger than them. Abaddon, fluff wise, would absolutely crush Logan in a fist fight. However, I do think Logan would get a few good licks in before he died.
Fluff wise, Logan hunts five mile long kraken with nothing but a spear, loincloth, and his fists .Abaddons size makes little difference.
( the krakens tentacles are four times it's length)
Dem Inquisishun humies can't be trusted any further dan day can be thrown, which in dat one's case might be a bad example.
Logan would probably beat Abaddon...realistically speaking though, as realistic and reasonable as you can be for a sci-fi/fantasy, Logan doesn't stand even a hope of a chance of winning.
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less.
One bit of context, I think is missing from the Emperor's Gift quote, It's was eistablished quite clearly both before and after, that Joros screwed up the entire situation with Logan, MASSIVLY underestimating the man in a pretty much textbook case of hubris,
That said, Logan's speed vs a random NPC, is pretty unimportant. let's compare him to Abby, both have plenty of impressive feats to name to them, we could go back and forth all week listing awesome feats they did.
At the end of the day however, GW gives Abby an init of 6 vs Logan's init of 5. thus according to Games workshop, Abbaddon is faster. (in weapons fight this gets even worse when you realize that to get an AP 2 weapon, Logan's init drops to 1)
2014/09/05 09:12:49
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Lysit wrote: At actual fisty cuffs? Im going to Favor Logan in that fight.
With all there fancy toys to murder each other? Abaddon 9 times out of 10.
Except for the part where Abaddon is Warmaster. Not only that but he no longer follows the code of honor that most Astartes stick by, or only pretends to follow if its beneficial to him. There is no way he would give Logan even a little chance. If Logan ever comes up against Abaddon it will never be by chance. And if they ever come across each other, Logans fate has already been determined.
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less.
Ok, yeah its a necro thread, but I think it's a fine question for faffing around with. Mods, give it a pass?
Generally I like failbaddon more than father Christmas but in straight up fisty cuffs, I think it's Logan.
Reasons: Abaddon fights in terminator armor for most of his life. All his training is for a slow, overwhelming fight where he is tougher than nails. He beats Loken a fair bit because of that armor advantage.
Logan is a wolf and they do massively stupid armor-less stuff all the time. I think he's a scrapper and that will serve him better in a classic boxing match.
Logan is a wolf and they do massively stupid armor-less stuff all the time. I think he's a scrapper and that will serve him better in a classic boxing match.
Plus Abaddon will be suffering withdrawal from lack of Chaos powers and Deamon weapon, Logan would definitely beat the crap out of him.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
suck my 9 !
.Abaddons size makes little difference.
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