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"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponents fate."
Sun Tzu
http://s1.zetaboards.com/New_Badab/index/
JOIN THE ETERNAL WAR. SAY YOU FOLLOWED MY LINK IN YOUR INTRODUCTION TO HELP TZEENTCHS CAUSE.
*bursts though room with axe* HEEEAAARRRS JHONNY!!!
Abbaddon.
What your looking at is a guy who has wolf like powers and a fancy axe who is a superhuman and also is a prophet to a powerful psyker against a daemonic superhuman who also has the help of all of the dark gods and has a weapon that was wielded by Horus himself and perhaps one of the most powerful daemonic swords in exsitance, who also is a prophet of the the dark gods themselves...
This is just my opinion anyway, but there should be a poll here as well.
Also 9/10 Abbadon will beat him on the table (ive seen it happen... I think...).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/18 18:54:21
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
What your looking at is a guy who has wolf like powers and a fancy axe...
Listen up lad! It be a dangerous mistake to call Grimnar’s prized weapon for a “fancy axe.” Morkai strikes with the force of a Powerfist and has blades as sharp as the teeth of a mighty Seadragon. Yarr!
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Probably Abaddon. He's got thousands of years of battle-experience over Logan, and one does not remain the de facto leader of the Traitor Legions through charming personality alone. He's also what amounts to a second-generation Space Marine, with his geneseed being about as close to the source as its possible to get. Only Bjorn really has the status to make a similar claim.
And, yeah, he's got the Great Four and an unknown number of lesser Powers at his back. In such a fight, Logan might suffer an unfortunate accident and slip on a pile of wolf-gak and break his neck before Abaddon needs to even move... all according to plan.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Well Abaddon has been around for 10,000 years. He's backed by the four powers of Chaos and he has a daemonically-possessed weapon. In addition it takes a lot of skill to muster the amount of Chaos Space Marines to launch a Black Crusade.
Also he was a badass when it comes to fighting in the Horus Heresy books.
Logan Grimnar is powerful but he isn't so battle-hardened.
Note that the OP said in a fist fight, no demonic weapons or hammers, Stop bringing them into it.
Anyhoo, I think Logan would win.
Quote from Abaddon "Horus was weak, Horus was a fool. He had the entire galaxy in his hands and he let it slip through his fingers" Coming from a man who cant claim one planet utilizing thousands of marines and cultists... >>
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/19 11:19:32
2012/08/20 01:21:11
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
No other factors? so the 4 ruinous powers jacking Abaddon up are gone for the fist fight, doesn't matter Abaddon still has 10,000 years of great crusade experience, Horus heresy experience, black crusade experience.
I think some people forget that Abaddon is a ' Luna wolf ' . He has everything that Logan has. On the exception of space wolves have better senses. Luna wolves have the most endurance of all the legions. Even the perfectionists of Fulgrim's legion are exhausted trying to keep up.
Abaddon has 10,000 years of fighting and tactical experience. Logan doesn't.
Abaddon was on Ullanor with Horus slaying the Warboss. A most impressive feat of strength for even a first captain.
Abaddon fought back from a crushing advance from the loyalists and reclaimed the war masters body. And yet again had to reclaim the war masters body from the Emperors children within the eye.
Only the daemon primarchs have as much power as Abaddon
Abaddon also has been waging war in his terminator armor all this time. There really isn't a time that hes not in it, and even when terminator armor was fist issued to the legions Abaddon is super fast and quick footed in it, Loken makes a note of it on Istvan 3, Imagine if he wasn't wearing it how fast he would be.
If it was Logan Vs Abaddon in a boxing ring or a field, he would be on the ground so fast its not funny. Logan would be weaker, Logan would be exhausted, Logan would be slower, Logan would be intellectually outmatched, Logan is not as battle hardened as Abaddon.
I'm trying hard not to be a Abaddon fan boy, but lets be real.
"There is no escape from chaos, it marks us all." "Only i can hear your prayers here my friend, and i'm afraid i will not answer them." "It must be magnificent to see a planet writhe and scream to feel it compulse beneath your own feet, witness it dying with living eyes such marvelous spectacle, the skulls are my gift, in time perhaps i will share this gift with every living soul in the galaxy."
Harriticus wrote: Abaddon is out of Logan's league. Doubt Grimnar could even go head to head with the likes of Calgar/Dante
Spoiler:
Grimnar is believed by some observers to be one of the most powerful warriors in the Imperium, greater even than other Space Marine Chapter Masters such as Lord Commander Dante of the Blood Angels, Supreme Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels, and even Lord Marneus Calgar of the feared Ultramarines.
Not cool,but I doubt that they can go toe to toe with him - two of them -together
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 02:21:08
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Space Wolves are famed for their CC abilities, I would probably say Logan Grimnar, but maybe I am being biased because I despise Chaos, and love the mighty Wolves
Blood Angels 3rd Company
Space Wolves Ragnar Blackmane's Great Company
Rynn's World Battle Force
2012/08/20 01:51:20
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Frecklesonfire wrote: No other factors? so the 4 ruinous powers jacking Abaddon up are gone for the fist fight, doesn't matter Abaddon still has 10,000 years of great crusade experience, Horus heresy experience, black crusade experience.
I think some people forget that Abaddon is a ' Luna wolf ' . He has everything that Logan has. On the exception of space wolves have better senses. Luna wolves have the most endurance of all the legions. Even the perfectionists of Fulgrim's legion are exhausted trying to keep up.
Abaddon has 10,000 years of fighting and tactical experience. Logan doesn't.
Abaddon was on Ullanor with Horus slaying the Warboss. A most impressive feat of strength for even a first captain.
Abaddon fought back from a crushing advance from the loyalists and reclaimed the war masters body. And yet again had to reclaim the war masters body from the Emperors children within the eye.
Only the daemon primarchs have as much power as Abaddon
Abaddon also has been waging war in his terminator armor all this time. There really isn't a time that hes not in it, and even when terminator armor was fist issued to the legions Abaddon is super fast and quick footed in it, Loken makes a note of it on Istvan 3, Imagine if he wasn't wearing it how fast he would be.
If it was Logan Vs Abaddon in a boxing ring or a field, he would be on the ground so fast its not funny. Logan would be weaker, Logan would be exhausted, Logan would be slower, Logan would be intellectually outmatched, Logan is not as battle hardened as Abaddon.
I'm trying hard not to be a Abaddon fan boy, but lets be real.
I like abaddon and all, since I want to start a chaos army with him and chosen with lots of termis. (just epic)
But speed is not a problem. did you not read my comment that logan killed a GK supremme GM with 1 hit before he can even react, is that not fast? with all his psychic ability and mastery of the falchion and being the supreme GM he died to logan, also even a GK libby was beat by him. this libby shattered the demon sword of (the demon from the the first war of armorgedon).
Sorry i forget how to spell the names and exact details.
As much as I hate Abby (and I do hate him) Abby will beat Logan into the last milenia.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
In the new GK book, he wounded a GK tech marine and beat a future GK libby by just 2-3 hits.
He killed the GK superme grandmaster in 1 hit before the GK supreme GM can react.
Just by this single act I think he can beat abadon.
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard, what context aren't you telling us?
"Emperor's gift"
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/08/20 07:07:09
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Guys, fluff wise Abaddon is HUGE. He is bigger than a normal Space Marine. In Shadow Point, he is standing next to his Terminator bodyguards and he stands a head taller than them. There is also a picture of him with some normal Black Legion CSM's and he stands a great deal larger than them. Abaddon, fluff wise, would absolutely crush Logan in a fist fight. However, I do think Logan would get a few good licks in before he died.
"Most mortals will die from this procedure...and so will you!"
My vote would go to Abbadon. Grimnar only killed the GKGM by teleporting in with a sneak attack, but that's beside the point.
Abbadon is blessed with the power of chaos, as well as the aforementioned experience. His usage of uber lightning claws means he is much more practised in a straight up fist fight than Logan, who is used to his axe. While I'm sure drunken bar fights on Fenris have helped hone Grimnar's fisticuff abilities, I'm not sure raw speed and brutality will get the job done here. It's like having lucius get in a fight with Kharn; while Kharn is undoubtedly better at butchering large swathes of the enemy, he would likely lose to a specialised stylised duelist like Lucius. They're just designed for different roles, and have practiced different combat styles.
Abbadon... he has never caused much harm to me on the table (mainly b/c I point all my death at him) but his experience, exploits and size give him the definite edge.
I agree completely with Justicar_Thunderflanks. There is no contest whatsoever, Abaddon would win everytime, in everyway. Fistfight, Abaddon through sheer size, speed, strength and endurance. Duel, Abaddon through skill, experience and tactics.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:In the grim darkness of the far future, the guy with a rifle is the weakest man on the battlefield, left to quake in terror, hoping the two or three shots he gets do the job before somebody runs screaming across the battlefield to hit him with an energized stick.
Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote: My vote would go to Abbadon. Grimnar only killed the GKGM by teleporting in with a sneak attack, but that's beside the point.
Abbadon is blessed with the power of chaos, as well as the aforementioned experience. His usage of uber lightning claws means he is much more practised in a straight up fist fight than Logan, who is used to his axe. While I'm sure drunken bar fights on Fenris have helped hone Grimnar's fisticuff abilities, I'm not sure raw speed and brutality will get the job done here. It's like having lucius get in a fight with Kharn; while Kharn is undoubtedly better at butchering large swathes of the enemy, he would likely lose to a specialised stylised duelist like Lucius. They're just designed for different roles, and have practiced different combat styles.
when i saw the word "teleport" I know you did not read the book properly.
The writer specificly said the space wolfs don't teleport and took the storm raven onto the GK battleship. Sneak or not THE GKGM is a psyker which he can predict logan's movements and he probably prepared for it since he took the blame of killing that many SW on logan's battleship by ordering to fire.
10,000 year of battle is not actully 10,000 years for abaddon, because remember he lives in the warp, for him is probably only 1000-2000 of his life. Thats why his black cursades takes so many years to organise, 10 years for his is 100 years outside the eye.
So to say his got more battle experince might not be so correct. He is large and the 1st genSM with very pure geneseed but how do you know logan is not also that big? Also SW were created to be SM killers (hinted in the horus heresy book). They are specialled are killing other space marines its in their instinct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also lastly, a 1st captain (or GM) of the GK chapter can defeat the Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters Traitor Legion, and logan can kill the GKGM. I would say logan would be a match for abaddon or even better than him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading through his fulff also found this:
"13th Black Crusade
During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "
This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/08/20 10:31:57
2012/08/20 13:19:02
Subject: Re:Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?
Here are some facts about Logan nicely summed by 1d4chan :
Spoiler:
Logan Grimnar is Chapter Master of the Space Wolves, and all-around cool guy. He has been the Space Wolves Chapter master for over 700 years and has been kicking ass even longer, making him one of the oldest Chapter Masters currently serving. He has shown great battle prowess and his thirst for blood rivals that of their mighty Primarch, Leman Russ. As such, he is said to be the greatest living warrior in the Imperium. (At least until the Spiritual Liege Matt Ward gets his hands on him and nerfs him down below his favored sons the ultrasmurfs, until then suck on that Marneus Calgar) Grimnar wears a pimped out suit of terminator armour equipped with a storm bolter and carries his trusty axe Morkai (which he got from beating the gak out of a Chaos champion and stealing it from him, then beating the corruption out of the daemon weapon until it submitted to him) into war with him. As of the 5th Ed. Space Wolf Codex, he also has the ability to buff his squad with some fun tricks, give all nearby allied models an extra attack for one turn, AND makes Wolf Guard into a Troops choice, allowing you to pimp out your whole army. Isn't he generous? Well, he's certainly generous to the enemies of the Imperium - WITH THE ASS-KICKINGS!
The Ecclesiarchy does not like him, and has charged him on multiple counts of treason and heresy for being a decent person to the Imperial Guard and other non-Astartes organizations. Like after the Armageddon War (in which he actually managed to make Angron even ANGRIER), when those donkey-caves in the Inquisition decided to purge all the Guardsmen who fought there because they were "tainted" or some gak and Grimnar called them out on their dickery. As a result, the Inquisition keeps clear of Fenris whenever it can, for fear of what might happen. Yes, you read that right. The Inquisition has no fear of the heretic, the xeno, or the daemon, but Logan Grimnar? He fething terrifies them.
Grimnar is also the only non-Daemon entity to slay a Grey Knights Grand Master. Yes, you read that right, he fething decapitated a space marine that hunts Greater Daemons for a living... But you are probably thinking "Wait...Hold up. What the hell did a Chapter that has never fallen to Chaos, and is regarded to have geneseed directly from the Big E himself, do to earn the scorn of Grimnar so much that he slays one of their Grand Masters?" The answer kiddies is that the Inquisition strikes again, in slowed hindsight ordering the Knights to fire on the Wolf Wolf Ships during a *cough*peace meeting*cough* probably wasn't the best idea. Naturally, the Great Wolf being the Great Wolf, flies up to the Inquisitorial ship, walks right up to the Grand Master that gave the order and cuts his fething head off then shoots down four Grey Knight Justicars for the lulz. Long story short and much rage-only-the-screwing-up-of-the-inquisition-can-do later, Bjorn the Fell Handed had to finally step in and kick some Wolf and Knight balls in equal measure to remind them trolling around in 40k will not be tolerated. So everybody goes home pretty fethed up, but with their heads on straight (well except for the grand master, and the Lord Inquisitor who started it all (Yeah Grimmy didn't forget about him)).
When that fething failure Abaddon kicked off the 13th Black Crusade, good ol' Creed knew just the person to call. See Grimnar is an old drinking buddy of the clever Cadian (which says a lot about Creed's stamina, as Space Wolves only drink Fenrisian), and when the massed Legions of Chaos came knocking on the Cadian Gate he knew the Old Wolf would have his back. Grimnar rocked up and ran the show, combining his testosterone fuelled manliness with the brass balls of Creed to put the Armless Wonder back in his place. He was named Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces, which included Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition Forces, who took it about as well as you would expect.
And he also shares the same resentment towards the Dark Angels as the rest of his chapter (Where's the fluff on this, exactly? He probably does, though. Bathrobe-wearing pansies.). Also among his hatreds is that of the Galactic Partridges, who have successfully managed to trollingly capitalize on his badassery for at least a few centuries now. Despite their dickishness, Logan still manages to maintain the bulk of the credit for his mighty deeds.
He is the only known furry that you can think is fething AWESOME without being HERE-BLAMMED.
He was probably created from the combined geneseed of both Leman Russ and Eddard Stark.
(A little known fact is that Fenris is actually the same world as the setting of a Song of Ice and Fire, thousands upon thousands of years later. They are just in their longest-ass winter yet.)
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
There is no conceivable way that Logan beats him. You can quote the same novel about killing a GK master all you want, it's not going to magically make Logan better. You quote it over and over telling everyone they read it wrong and we are ignoring what happened that one time, but choose to ignore everything else that is playing into this.
Abbadon is so unequivocally badass it just makes this entire thread moot.
And no, it doesn't show Logan is as tactically able as Abbadon. Eisenhower blasted through Rommel's Atlantic Wall but that doesn't mean he's a better tactician.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/20 14:26:31
As everyone keeps saying, Abbadon wins hands down. The guy was second in command of the legion that the Emperor decided were his number one, now he's first in command of that legion, he wields the weapon of the Primarch who almost killed the Emperor AND some super powerful daemon sword.
Add in all the thousands of years of combat experience. What's that I hear you say, time flows slower in the Warp? Wrong. It flows differently, this guy could skip 1000 years in a few hours, or he can drag out a minute for centuries, just by asking his best friends the Chaos Gods to turn down the speed on time for a little while.
More badassery needed to sway your opinion? Say no more. The man has a topknot. Nothing says "I am going to kill you quicker than you can say 'What a glorious hairstyle'." like a goddamn topknot. Or how about his curious lack of facial hair? Logan has a beard, yeah that's manly and all, but not as manly as why Abbadon doesn't. He never gets out of his armour anymore, and it's hard to get Gilette in the EoT, so how does he shave? Using Drach'nyen. He shaves his face with a Daemon sword.
Still not swayed? Let's take a look at their rides. Pride of Fenris, yeah I suppose that's okay. Ain't got nothing on pimping round the galaxy in a ship named after what it does, especially when that ship is called Planetkiller.
And as for Abaddon failing all his Black Crusades, wrong again. Abaddon's made the Chaos Gods his homeboys, he's learned all their tricks. He's only JUST tried to take Cadia recently, every other Crusade has gone Just as Planned.
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