Logan Grimnar vs Abaddon the Despoiler?

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**Castiel**

Abaddon. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

**Eetion**

Marthike wrote:

"13th Black Crusade

During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "

This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.

Other than the cadian sector was wrecked, the planet was wrecked, the resistance desperate and retreating.
If it wasn't for the necrons and the imperial navy they would have lost the sector completely rather than a sound thrashing. Not exactly a glowing record. But apparently all this has been retconned. Shame.

But this is all irrelevant as it is a fist fight.

Hmm fist fight I'd say close match grimnir probably having more experience in them but abaddon being naturally better.
As soon as any kind of weapon is involved its all abaddon.

**Andilus Greatsword**

I'm a Space Wolves player and fan, but I totally agree - Abaddon would beat Logan. It'd probably be a good fight though.

**DarthMarko**

Eetion wrote:
Marthike wrote:

"13th Black Crusade

During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "

This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.

Other than the cadian sector was wrecked, the planet was wrecked, the resistance desperate and retreating.
If it wasn't for the necrons and the imperial navy they would have lost the sector completely rather than a sound thrashing. Not exactly a glowing record. But apparently all this has been retconned. Shame.

But this is all irrelevant as it is a fist fight.

Hmm fist fight I'd say close match grimnir probably having more experience in them but abaddon being naturally better.
As soon as any kind of weapon is involved its all abaddon.

text removed.
reds8n

**Ignatius**

Eetion wrote:
Marthike wrote:

"13th Black Crusade

During Abaddon’s 13th Black Crusade, Logan Grimnar was selected as the supreme commander for the defending Imperial forces of the Cadian Gate. Under his command, many key victories by the Imperial forces were won. If it were not for his leadership, more of Cadia would have been lost to the hands of Chaos. At the Battle of Kasr Sonnen on Cadia, Logan and his Great Company fought alongside the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels, Azrael, and defeated a Chaos force many times their size by putting aside their mutual resentment of one another. "

This shows logan is also no worse than abaddon in tactical abilities.

Other than the cadian sector was wrecked, the planet was wrecked, the resistance desperate and retreating.
If it wasn't for the necrons and the imperial navy they would have lost the sector completely rather than a sound thrashing. Not exactly a glowing record. But apparently all this has been retconned. Shame.

But this is all irrelevant as it is a fist fight.

Hmm fist fight I'd say close match grimnir probably having more experience in them but abaddon being naturally better.
As soon as any kind of weapon is involved its all abaddon.

More experience than Abbadon? Are you joking? Why do you automatically assume Space Wolf = experienced bar fighter? How can you say one has more experience than the other in fist fights? You don't know. We can only guess. Abbadon had dozens of other uner powerful lords at his heels at all times scheming their way into killing him and taking control. I would wager he's had more experience dealing with super powerful space marines than Logan does.

And also, have any of you watched a fight from two guys in different weight classes? It's generally lopsided. Here we have an example of that. Being at least a head taller and probably a hundred or so pounds more than Logan, Abbadon would crush him.

**daveNYC**

Who would have more experience fighting other Space Marines, the guy who fought during the Heresy and continued fighting for the next 10,000 years, or the guy who has only been around for 700 years and has fought various enemies during that time.

Abaddon in a first round knockout.

**Durza**

Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.

**DarthMarko**

Durza wrote:
Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.

Hm sorry for being ultra-loyalist, but for me Loken will always be no1 Luna Wolf -(end fight in "Galaxy in flames" shows that )

**SaintTom**

Abaddon would win hands down. With the difference in size the worst the pup would probably do is bite off a couple fingers.

**OverwatchCNC**

Harriticus wrote:
Abaddon is out of Logan's league. Doubt Grimnar could even go head to head with the likes of Calgar/Dante

Ok, I agree Grimanr would lose to Abaddon 9/10 but surely you can't believe that Grimnar wouldn't be on equal footing with Calgar and Dante? They are all just Space Marine Chapter Masters, I doubt any of them would have any huge advantage over the other.

**purplefood**

Abbaddon would win but it's not like he'd do it easily...
Grimnar hasn't been chapter master of the SW for over 500 years for no reason...

**Frecklesonfire**

I also want to point out NObody can beat the Daemon Prince Primarch Angron 1 on 1, Sanguinius on a good day maybe.. that is a F'ing joke. Maybe a Daemon prince leman russ on a good day aha. Hilarious, a Grand master beating angron 1 on 1, what a joke. And didn't it take like 100 gak termies to fight him or chant some clafairy song?

also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously?? like really... i just want to point out that hunting down daemons, mindless beats most of the time with no real strategy or melee prowess other then overpowering swings.... ya.. good fight grey gaks.

**Coolyo294**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
I also want to point out NObody can beat the Daemon Prince Primarch Angron 1 on 1

Brother-Captain Aurellian begs to differ.

**Von Chogg**

DarthMarko wrote:
Durza wrote:
Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.

Hm sorry for being ultra-loyalist, but for me Loken will always be no1 Luna Wolf -(end fight in "Galaxy in flames" shows that )

I have read that book... and doesn't abbadon DESTROY Loken and collapse a building on them? Then get up and leave? End of the book Abbadon walks away victorious, unaware that Loken was alive still.

So, Abbadon wins me thinks. He's so powerful it's rumoured that he was a clone of Horus (CSM 'dex 4th ed)

Von Chogg

**DarthMarko**

Von Chogg wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:
Durza wrote:
Abaddon. He has the blessing of all four Chaos gods, and even without them, he was the best out of the Luna Wolves. He also has ten thousand years of battle experience, give or take a few thousand years on either side thanks to weird Eye of Terror time.

Hm sorry for being ultra-loyalist, but for me Loken will always be no1 Luna Wolf -(end fight in "Galaxy in flames" shows that )

I have read that book... and doesn't abbadon DESTROY Loken and collapse a building on them? Then get up and leave? End of the book Abbadon walks away victorious, unaware that Loken was alive still.

So, Abbadon wins me thinks. He's so powerful it's rumoured that he was a clone of Horus (CSM 'dex 4th ed)

Von Chogg

He was in Termi armor - that alone is huge advantage and still Loken owned him ( good portion of the fight )

**Void__Dragon**

Marthike wrote:
Sneak or not THE GK GM is a psyker which he can predict logan's movements and he probably prepared for it since he took the blame of killing that many SW on logan's battleship by ordering to fire.

Not every psyker has precognition. Most don't, actually.

Also, you're seriously kidding yourself if you think Grimnar can take on Kaldor fething Draigo, which you implied in your post in some hilarious way to hype Grimnar up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coolyo294 wrote:
Brother-Captain Aurellian begs to differ.

Said Brother Captain almost died against Angron, and to win he had to have his fellow dozens of Grey Knights focus and multiply their combined powers and attack him with pure awesomeness, in an attempt to banish him, which stunned him long enough for the Brocap to decapitate him.

Angron wasn't beaten in single combat.

**Omegus**

Marthike wrote:
[quote=Justicar_Thunderf
So to say his got more battle experince might not be so correct. He is large and the 1st gen SM with very pure geneseed but how do you know logan is not also that big? Also SW were created to be SM killers (hinted in the horus heresy book). They are specialled are killing other space marines its in their instinct.

This is false. What is SAID in the HH novels is that the Wolves were chosen to enact the Emperor's judgement because they are unquestioningly loyal him and could be called to heel. Kharn states they are more hounds than wolves, and it's precisely that loyalty and restraint that his Legion abandoned when they stopped being the Emperor's War Hounds and became Angron's Eaters of Worlds.

As for the GK, Grimnar indeed owned him in one shot (granted, a surprise attack at a parley, but a one-shot regardless). The guy wasn't a supreme GM, however, but rather one of the candidates, and was consistently portrayed in the novel as overly ambitious, arrogant, and short-sighted, and consistently underestimated the Wolves. Full props to Logan, but if that's not reverse plot-armor, I don't know what is. And did anyone else find the scene where Bjorn chastised Logan like a child to be hilarious?

**Eetion**

@Darthmarko
For sure no. But the campiagn was a minor Chaos victory, with Andy Chambers citing imperial sector control as a major factor.
The Blackstone fortress was driven off following the Necron assault preventing its orbital bombvardment from incinerating Cadian defensive postions.
The Imperial Fleet peeled away Chaos defensive squadrons and for the most part decimated the Chaos fleet. Although they themselves were too battered to press home the advantage.
If I recall correctly Russ also went off to hunt Alpha Legion Infiltrators rather than delegate the roll at one point.

@Ignatius
I don't expect Abaddon to lose, quite the opposite even. However given grimnir his due, unarmed and weaponless, I would expect him to have more experience than Abaddon, taven brawls ing more culturally acceptable for the space wolf and thus his experience, that time as a ale drinking blood claw is useful for something.
Whereas Abaddon probably rarely gets his hands dirty, I can imagine him using the talon, drach'nyen, bolter, a nod to his terminator Guards to off someone, just not removing his weapons and using his fists to club someone. As he's in termie armour you don't just disarm him. He is a weapon. He's probably more skilled and experienced than grimnir in every form of combat amnd war. Just not this one I don't think. I think abaddon would win, just not as easily as if he had the talon and drach'nyen in his hands.

**Bobakos**

Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
As everyone keeps saying, Abbadon wins hands down. The guy was second in command of the legion that the Emperor decided were his number one, now he's first in command of that legion, he wields the weapon of the Primarch who almost killed the Emperor AND some super powerful daemon sword.
Add in all the thousands of years of combat experience. What's that I hear you say, time flows slower in the Warp? Wrong. It flows differently, this guy could skip 1000 years in a few hours, or he can drag out a minute for centuries, just by asking his best friends the Chaos Gods to turn down the speed on time for a little while.
More badassery needed to sway your opinion? Say no more. The man has a topknot. Nothing says "I am going to kill you quicker than you can say 'What a glorious hairstyle'." like a goddamn topknot. Or how about his curious lack of facial hair? Logan has a beard, yeah that's manly and all, but not as manly as why Abbadon doesn't. He never gets out of his armour anymore, and it's hard to get Gilette in the EoT, so how does he shave? Using Drach'nyen. He shaves his face with a Daemon sword.
Still not swayed? Let's take a look at their rides. Pride of Fenris, yeah I suppose that's okay. Ain't got nothing on pimping round the galaxy in a ship named after what it does, especially when that ship is called Planetkiller.
And as for Abaddon failing all his Black Crusades, wrong again. Abaddon's made the Chaos Gods his homeboys, he's learned all their tricks. He's only JUST tried to take Cadia recently, every other Crusade has gone Just as Planned.

This post contains so much win in it I cant even begin describing it...

**BlaxicanX**

Void__Dragon wrote:

That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard, what context aren't you telling us?

Grimnar nodded to their words, turning back to Joros and Kysnaros. ‘Tell me, which one of you whoresons gave the order to open fire on our shieldless, weaponless vessels?"

"It was I,’ said Joros. ‘It gave me no pleasure, but the deed was done for the greater good."

The jarl nodded. ‘I’ve marked your face, knight. I’ll remember it from now until the Wolftime. You have my word on that. No Fenrisian ever forgets one who violates the laws of sheathed blades and bared throats. Once those laws are broken, all rules of decorum and honour are abandoned. To betray a betrayer is never counted as a sin."

Kysnaros tied his long blond hair into a ponytail, keeping any stray strands from his face. ‘Enough of this. The Imperium’s woes will not bide while we stand here and make superstitious promises. Chapter Master Grimnar, you will surrender as agreed, and your Wolves will stand down.’
Jarl Grimnar gave us his canine smile again, showing wet fangs. ‘That,’ he said, ‘will not be happening.’

Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated. The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.

And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.

That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.

- The Emperor's Gift, Chapter 22.

Get upset.

**Marthike**

All of you people saying abaddon has 10,000 years of battle experince is WRONG.

He live in the warp, time there is different for him. And I don't know if chaos makes him immortal but most space marine have a shelf life and that why so many of them want to be demon princes. Also why has abaddon not assended to being a demon prince if his that bad ass?

Fluff wise the chaos gods don't all that support him yet. Not like you think all chaos gods are watching him like his their "son", they probably pay no attension to him most of the time.

I did not compare kaldor draigo with logan but logan is probably as good as him consider the feats he has done.

fluff by fluff logan is no weaker than abaddon.

This is also a fist fight both of them basicly fight in termi armour 24/7. Abaddon do not for sure have more experince since he lives in the warp so no one knows how old he is.

And lastly people keeps comparing weapons, if you guys say abaddon's weapons are all that better than logan that means without them abaddon is not all that awesome?

Also SPEED read this bit from the BOOK:

"The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades. A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned.

And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain.
"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frecklesonfire wrote:
I also saying Logan beat a gk grand master is like saying Abaddon beats Logan, obviously??

Obviously? any reason? is there any book I missed where it said logan and abaddon fought and abaddon one shotted logan....

i think you will not argue with me when I say a demon prince primarch is stronger than abaddon. When GK grandmasters are probably equal match with a demon prince primarch not always but 50/50 one dies another kills it. Then logan can kills one with a suprise attack but this grand master is trained to be super fast reaction like the book said that puts logan to be better than a GK grandmaster.

This means he might stand a chance with a demon prince primarch so surely is a match with abaddon.

Here I gave you a comparison instead of you just say abaddon is better with no reason.

**BlaxicanX**

Did you like, read only the first five posts in the thread and then start writing up a reply? Serious question.

**redkommando**

Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
As everyone keeps saying, Abbadon wins hands down. The guy was second in command of the legion that the Emperor decided were his number one, now he's first in command of that legion, he wields the weapon of the Primarch who almost killed the Emperor AND some super powerful daemon sword.
Add in all the thousands of years of combat experience. What's that I hear you say, time flows slower in the Warp? Wrong. It flows differently, this guy could skip 1000 years in a few hours, or he can drag out a minute for centuries, just by asking his best friends the Chaos Gods to turn down the speed on time for a little while.
More badassery needed to sway your opinion? Say no more. The man has a topknot. Nothing says "I am going to kill you quicker than you can say 'What a glorious hairstyle'." like a goddamn topknot. Or how about his curious lack of facial hair? Logan has a beard, yeah that's manly and all, but not as manly as why Abbadon doesn't. He never gets out of his armour anymore, and it's hard to get Gilette in the EoT, so how does he shave? Using Drach'nyen. He shaves his face with a Daemon sword.
Still not swayed? Let's take a look at their rides. Pride of Fenris, yeah I suppose that's okay. Ain't got nothing on pimping round the galaxy in a ship named after what it does, especially when that ship is called Planetkiller.
And as for Abaddon failing all his Black Crusades, wrong again. Abaddon's made the Chaos Gods his homeboys, he's learned all their tricks. He's only JUST tried to take Cadia recently, every other Crusade has gone Just as Planned.

Constructive, I know

**DarthMarko**

Even thou Abbadon is OP - he would Fail because he has tradition of Failing (Failbaddon)

**Pilau Rice**

DarthMarko wrote:Even thou Abbadon is OP - he would Fail because he has tradition of Failing (Failbaddon)

Does he?

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

**DarthMarko**

Pilau Rice wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:Even thou Abbadon is OP - he would Fail because he has tradition of Failing (Failbaddon)

Does he?

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Ok I'm not impartial but I hate that guy so much, every book I've read, hatred was bigger and bigger and when he snarled on Alpharius (f***ng primarch) like he was common G.I. joe I wanted to kill him...

**Pilau Rice**

DarthMarko wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:Even thou Abbadon is OP - he would Fail because he has tradition of Failing (Failbaddon)

Does he?

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Ok I'm not impartial but I hate that guy so much, every book I've read, hatred was bigger and bigger and when he snarled on Alpharius (f***ng primarch) like he was common G.I. joe I wanted to kill him...

He's not very likeable, well after Davin at least, but that's what is great about him in a way. No one likes him, not many believe that he should be Warmaster but still he holds ultimate sway over the Chaos forces. It's arguable that he has achieved more than the traitor Primarchs did in their fight against the Imperium, there's certainly a couple of characters in the Night Lords trilogy that think this. So he hasn't reached Terra yet in all this time, but has each Black Crusades goal actually been Terra, I don't think so. Each so far has had it's own aim, and for the most part, Abaddon has achieved this. Whats another 10,000 years to wait if after all that you get to stand on the charred earth of Terran soil after pulling the rotten corpse of the False Emperor from his throne.

Alpharius would have put him back in his place, I would have loved to have seen that

**p_gray99**

Just thought I'd bring up this avatar:

Kinda hints at a bias, yes? 'Specially when everyone else seems to agree it'd be abbadon... including me, BTW...

**DarthMarko**

p_gray99 wrote:
Just thought I'd bring up this avatar:

Kinda hints at a bias, yes? 'Specially when everyone else seems to agree it'd be abbadon... including me, BTW...

No I wroted Logan ( I'm not the only one :-) just because I hate Abby - I know he is "underdog" in this (so is any chapter master btw ) ....

**Red Viper**

There's probably diminishing returns on battle experience. A guy in his first battle vs a guy in his second, yeah big difference.

A guy who has been fighting for 10,000 vs a guy that has been fighting for 1,000? Probably not a big difference really.

Regardless, Abaddon takes this. Logan is a beast and among the best the imperium has, but Abaddon is a step above him.

Draigo vs Abaddon is more like it imo... but that's a whole 'nother thread.

Let Logan battle the likes of Kharn, Typhus, Lucius.