So if you've gotten your hands on the Dark Vengeance edition of White Dwarf, and read through it, you'll have noticed that excerpt-story by C.Z. Dunn.

It actually bothered the crap outta me. Like, I just read it, and I hated it so much I had to make a post. That bad. It completely crapped on the fluff-established expertise of Space Marines. In the excerpt, Tactical Squad Raphael get into a firefight with a 10-man squad of Chaos Cultists (Shamelessly armed and described just like in the box-set)


The tactical squad's one Brother gets shot to bits by concentrated Autogun fire.
Fine, stupid according to fluff, that that can slide. I'll assume they're dumping every shot they've got at the one poor guy.

The veteran sergeant takes three shots with his Plasma Pistol, misses with two, and hits with one.
Okay....again, could just be coincidence...

Heavy Gunner takes aim, shoots at four cultists with his Plasma Cannon and "All Brother Heskia kills is a large patch of undergrowth."
No. In-game, scatters can work like that. Not in fluff. No.

Another bolter-boy takes aim, and fires at a group of four, kills one, and misses the other three, who charge him.
Nah man, I'm probably gunna throw up. This is ridiculous.

Same bolter boy gets TACKLED by the three of the cultists.
400lbs of armour, 250-300lbs of super-strong man...nah, a bunch of scrawny cultists aren't tackling that. No way.

AGAIN, same guy has one of the cultists shot off of him by the Sergeant, kills one with his hands, and the other stabs him in the throat. He was effectively killed by two cultists.
Nope. Brb vomiting.

So what's the deal; is BL trying to write their characters closer to In-game statlines? Or is this just horrible writing? I personally was disgusted; I'm not a space marine player, but they make the story behind the game interesting. Space marines are a good measuring tool that makes my army (IG) awesome. Oh, guard has to use 10,000 guys to do what 50 Space Marines could have done? Badass.

Not anymore though, if you were keeping track, Dark Angels killed three cultists, Cultists killed two Dark Angels. I'm calling bull.

I also really don't like the idea of BL trying to shift fluff closer to the game; it'll be much less interesting. The idea of power-armoured super-warriors going basically kill for kill against wimpy cultists with guns and knives sounds like a crap read.

Thoughts?
-TheCaptain

Almost at the end of the fluff you are referring to Raphael comments on his losses in the past 50+ years being only 4 in number, while having just lost two marines in one skirmish. Even the Sergeant thinks the writer is being ridiculous.

But to your point, in other fluff SM squads take down hundreds on lesser opponents in hand to hand, only being taken down by the crush of numbers or lucky shots. So comparing this to the Space Wolves and Soul Drinkers novels I have read does make it seem they are trying to humanize the SM more. IMO it is more fun when the fluff treats them like super heroes.

TLDR: SM have been established in the fluff as coming out with minimal losses against impossible odds, even without plot armor. You are right that this seems to be going in a more stat line, IMO worse, direction.

 TheCaptain wrote:
So if you've gotten your hands on the Dark Vengeance edition of White Dwarf, and read through it, you'll have noticed that excerpt-story by C.Z. Dunn.





Thoughts?
-TheCaptain

That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!
Marines are pretty dang tough but even they will die. Most of the current background has been pretty kind to them, so I'm glad to see a more realistic portrayal of Imperial Space Marines. Their best advantage isn't their armor, it's the alpha strike. If they don't have that advantage, well it's game over.

Plus I've always thought that the Marines in game were about as tough as they should be. Terminators are not a lot tougher to kill too, which makes sense.

Havent read it but from what you describe it seems like a blatent attempt to get the kids excited about chaos cultists so they will buy a load, insulting to the older gamers though who know their fluff.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!

Yours read something like...



(Get it because it made no sense LOLLLOOOLOLOLOLLLOLOL)

Marines are pretty dang tough but even they will die. Most of the current background has been pretty kind to them, so I'm glad to see a more realistic portrayal of Imperial Space Marines. Their best advantage isn't their armor, it's the alpha strike. If they don't have that advantage, well it's game over.

No. It's their armor.

Their tank-like armor. Not to mention their several extra organs. And inhuman ballistic skill.


If you've read any of the established SM fluff, you'd know this isn't a "realistic" portrayal of Space Marines. This is IG Veterans being mistakenly called Space Marines and getting butchered in kind.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a SM fanboy, I don't even play them. I just think such blatant disregard for established fluff is slowed. Just like newcrons fluff. (Who I don't play either.)

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!

Yours read something like...



(Get it because it made no sense LOLLLOOOLOLOLOLLLOLOL)

Why are you so offended about marines dying in the first place?
Also I love it when you try to make a come back, it's so cute and try-hard. :3

Not offended; confused by a sanctioned BL author's ignoring established fluff. I've already stated I don't care for or against marines.

To the second bit...yikes. No comment on how hardcore you must be.

Edit: Also, it's old, I know, but your workout regimen in your thread completely ignores lower back, butt, core, and Lats, which are all glamour muscles. Someone tryna get ripped should pay attention to those.

I've got to say, I've always found the SM fluff to be super lame. Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch? Mortality is one of the things that makes a character interesting, so to me the fact that the marines can die, and that they don't necessarily just auto-win is kinda a plus.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

I've seen several books that make it seem way too easy to kill Space Marines. Probably just due to the author not understanding how they're supposed to work.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I've seen several books that make it seem way too easy to kill Space Marines. Probably just due to the author not understanding how they're supposed to work.

I remember an article by Gav Thorpe that basically said "Space Marines are as tough as the story demands" and I think that's pretty dead on. I've read stories where they're one step off from being literal gods on the battlefield, then other stories where they're, well, Toughness 4 with a 3+ save! That's all up to the author and how they handle it.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?

It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.

Several black library books have had a single las gun shot kill a marine. The writers always get things wrong. Does anyone remember the cultists in brotherhood of the snake that with PITCHFORKS break a rhino apart and then tear the marine inside of it to pieces? Human cultists just put space marine strength to shame.

Gaunts ghosts have guardsmen with basic las guns gun down an entire squad of world eaters in a matter of minutes AFTER the world eaters caught them by surprise.

You really can't be upset over bad fluff. just ignore it and move on, especially white dwarf fluff no one will remember.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?

It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.

So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.

That is pretty stupid, but you have to realize that the Black Library isn't there to make canonical fluff. They simply want to write good stories and because of that the way Space Marines are portrayed changes from author to author. Honestly I haven't heard of this author before this novel so its possible we may have another C S Goto on our hands.

Joking aside, its probably just a marketing scheme to make Chaos look cooler since its the next codex.

 LoneLictor wrote:


So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.

But wait...I actually loved that.

Is that bad?

I personally was disgusted; I'm not a space marine player,

................
*looks at thread responses*
*facepalms*

Yes I agree it is horrible writing, I believe it might be C.S. Goto writing if any. Because I have also read it, it was missing quite a few things. One A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.

I was insulted.

Stupid Marketing ploy

 Asherian Command wrote:
A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.

You haven't read Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett, have you?

 DeffDred wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.

You haven't read Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett, have you?

Have you ever heard in terms of gaming taking a squad of 4 tactical marines?
NO YOU HAVE NOT!

 TheCaptain wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?

It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.

Yeah the problem is the game mechanics. I've been playing since Rogue Trader days and Marines have NEVER been what they should be in the background. The problem is, and this is not GW bashing, but if marines were represented like they should be in the actual game, you'd field about twenty or thirty and they would indeed be hard to kill, but they wouldn't sell that many. I mean no company can grow not selling things.

I mean earliest things I remember about SM is the fact that they would kill 100 enemies for every one of them that dies. Just doesn't happen in a game of 40k. I think it would be cool, plus, well you invest massive time and energy in training, organs, weapons, equipment and lose 50 -60 guys a battle. Hmm.

But sometimes this universe just doesn't jibe. 1000 SM chapters of 1000 each and that's all. That's one legion size. Not if they fight like they do in the game. SO yeah. Things don't add up.

I'd much rather see the small, powerful SM armies cutting swathes through the ranks of hordes than fielding half a company each game.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:


So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.

But wait...I actually loved that.

Is that bad?

Well, it depends. Did you love it because it was hilarious, or did you love it because it was suspenseful?

 TheCaptain wrote:


It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.

The other factions in 40k don't really exist just to be a punching bag for the marines, or at least they shouldn't.

I have a hard time enjoying any story in which there is really no risk to the protagonist. Superman was so powerful as to be basically omnipotent, having only a couple of weaknesses, so his comics ended up just being the same story over and over. The same can be said for some of the more clumsily written space marine bits.

I'll use the God-Man comic as an example. Sure it's funny for one page, but if you read comic after comic of God-Man poofing his enemies away, it would quickly become an exercise in futility. The fact that if you made the marines weaker, there would be a chance for them to actually fail. The marines don't always win. It's a fact established by the fluff. But when writers do things like make a small tactical squad with a captain able to carve their way through an entire opposing army, only losing casualties when the squad member has ceased to be useful to the author it just comes off as cheesy and boring, at least to me.

 TheCaptain wrote:
It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!
Marines are pretty dang tough but even they will die. Most of the current background has been pretty kind to them, so I'm glad to see a more realistic portrayal of Imperial Space Marines. Their best advantage isn't their armor, it's the alpha strike. If they don't have that advantage, well it's game over.

Plus I've always thought that the Marines in game were about as tough as they should be. Terminators are not a lot tougher to kill too, which makes sense.

That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying US marines suddenly turn to gak after the first engagement. They still have training, equipment and just about every other advantage you can think of over a small band of cultists. Cultists. Ya know, they insane rabble of the common masses working with gakky guns, no armor, no training TRYING to please a dark god who laughs at their pitiful efforts. Yeah, not buying it.

The way I look at it is that any 40k battles actually played are the one off battles where (regardless of outcome) like in the HH novel where the Blood Angels, Emperor's Children and Lunar Wolves take numbers of casualties on the world Murder, entire companies in the case of Blood Angels... (Horus Rising iirc)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically it's just a really bad day for the space marines... even if they win... or a normal day if they actually only take a couple casualties...

Ok, some of it is ridiculous, the three guy's tackling down a space marine for one(though if they were mutated with more muscle mass or w/e then that could balance it out), but having marines actually have to fight in an engagement isn't really a bad thing; it's definitely more of what the writings need at least, and some writers do kind of try for a balance... Though that seems mainly to be in the HH series from what i can recall..

 SaintTom wrote:
Ok, some of it is ridiculous, the three guy's tackling down a space marine for one(though if they were mutated with more muscle mass or w/e then that could balance it out), but having marines actually have to fight in an engagement isn't really a bad thing; it's definitely more of what the writings need at least, and some writers do kind of try for a balance... Though that seems mainly to be in the HH series from what i can recall..

The problem is the piece was written to showcase the cultists; and they wanted to showcase them as effective squads instead of adhering to fluff and writing the 10 man squad overrun by 50 cultists and taking 2 casualties (which would have passed the fluff-test.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.

Is my assertion that mankind finds them fascinating wrong?

They follow the same concept of "Insanely powerful, inhuman warrior wrecking face."

 TheCaptain wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.

Is my assertion that mankind finds them fascinating wrong?

Yes. It's even wrong stating that makind finds Norse mythology facsinating, because when you say mankind, you're at least talking about the majority of the human race. The majority of the human race doesn't even find Norse mythology fascinating, let alone a comic character or video game character.

Outright stating 'mankind finds fascinating' is a bold claim, and in this case, yes, very wrong.

That's the first story I've read where chaos cultists were actually effective. I bet those cultists will get promoted to sacrificial slaves next!

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Several black library books have had a single las gun shot kill a marine. The writers always get things wrong. Does anyone remember the cultists in brotherhood of the snake that with PITCHFORKS break a rhino apart and then tear the marine inside of it to pieces? Human cultists just put space marine strength to shame.

That book was even more confusing, because a few chapters before (or was it after) they had space marines killing thousands of dark eldar and orks. It was like SUPER CULTISTS, AWAY!

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Gaunts ghosts have guardsmen with basic las guns gun down an entire squad of world eaters in a matter of minutes AFTER the world eaters caught them by surprise.

Its not really basic lasguns. Its an ancient power sword, a plasma gun, a hot-shot lasgun, and a bundle of tube charges, as well as scores of heavy metal bolts applied to a skull. The one time a regular lasgun does it is when it is those vitrians, and they use high powered lasguns as well (or lasguns set on super high power). But I can get how those bits would be an issue, when would a power sword, a plasma gun, a hot-shot lasgun and a bundle of tube charges (basically a demo charge) kill marines easily?

Sorry, thats snarky. I just dislike when people say 'oh noes the ghosts killed some marines, its super unrealistic'. Well it is a little unrealistic, but it is future war. And it annoys me even more when they say 'without casualties'. There were buckets of dead, they were all just Nitanghe (or however you spell it).

 IcedAnimals wrote:
You really can't be upset over bad fluff. just ignore it and move on, especially white dwarf fluff no one will remember.

I have to agree with this. Although that fluff excerpt was particularly odd, I have to agree with captain (ha, didn't think I'd be saying that ever) in that it was poorly thought out and poorly written. And unnecessary.

This Dark Vengeance novel was probably rushed into publishing and made to be as close as possible to the boxset. The Dawn of War book series shows how horrible and nonsensical BL books get when they try to be an adaption of a specific game, as opposed to the 40k universe as a whole.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.

You haven't read Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett, have you?

great book and a decent look at what a SM should be imho.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 SaintTom wrote:
Ok, some of it is ridiculous, the three guy's tackling down a space marine for one(though if they were mutated with more muscle mass or w/e then that could balance it out), but having marines actually have to fight in an engagement isn't really a bad thing; it's definitely more of what the writings need at least, and some writers do kind of try for a balance... Though that seems mainly to be in the HH series from what i can recall..

The problem is the piece was written to showcase the cultists; and they wanted to showcase them as effective squads instead of adhering to fluff and writing the 10 man squad overrun by 50 cultists and taking 2 casualties (which would have passed the fluff-test.)

Oh yes, I know and agree with you on that; I was just saying that the writer certainly could of given it more credibility with them being mutated to actually be able to tackle down a space marine in full armor, compared to them being just crazed cultists.

 Harriticus wrote:
This Dark Vengeance novel was probably rushed into publishing and made to be as close as possible to the boxset. The Dawn of War book series shows how horrible and nonsensical BL books get when they try to be an adaption of a specific game, as opposed to the 40k universe as a whole.

Dawn of war books were by C.S Goto, thus your claim is rather invalid considering he's a very poor author to begin with. Backflippin terminators and exarch suits that are mass produced...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
This Dark Vengeance novel was probably rushed into publishing and made to be as close as possible to the boxset. The Dawn of War book series shows how horrible and nonsensical BL books get when they try to be an adaption of a specific game, as opposed to the 40k universe as a whole.

Dawn of war books were by C.S Goto, thus your claim is rather invalid considering he's a very poor author to begin with. Backflippin terminators and exarch suits that are mass produced...

Where is this part about the Backflipping Terminator? I seriously want to find that part and read it. Does anyone know the page?

What we have here, gentlemen, is nothing but the opposite extreme to the countless novels, computer games and RPGs that have hyped the Astartes up to a status of immortal demigods, nigh-impervious to barrages of enemy fire.
Allow me to pick some of the statements posted in the criticism:

TheCaptain wrote:Same bolter boy gets TACKLED by the three of the cultists.
400lbs of armour, 250-300lbs of super-strong man...nah, a bunch of scrawny cultists aren't tackling that. No way.

"On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being."
- Codex: Angels of Death p.8 : Power Armour Construction

TheCaptain wrote:Heavy Gunner takes aim, shoots at four cultists with his Plasma Cannon and "All Brother Heskia kills is a large patch of undergrowth."
No. In-game, scatters can work like that. Not in fluff. No.

Why "not in fluff"? All it takes is that bunch of cultists jumping out of the way in time before the ground they were standing on a moment before is reduced to slag. Improbable, but happens all the time in various movies and novels. Coincidentally, it's generally considered okay if Space Marines do it.

TheCaptain wrote:Oh, guard has to use 10,000 guys to do what 50 Space Marines could have done? Badass.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines - or, failing that, give me a thousand other warriors."
- Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists

TheCaptain wrote:No. It's their armor. Their tank-like armor.

"Individual plates of armour can be up to an inch thick and have a special honeycomb design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- Codex: Angels of Death p.8 : Power Armour Construction

As for the autoguns, I suppose it should be pointed out that they could be loaded with special ammunition. Now, personally, the story - if it truly mirrors the descriptions in the opening post - does not really meet my own interpretation of the setting, however the same goes for a whole load of "bolter porn" Pro-Marine books, which are generally accepted by a large segment of the community. Basically, I'm just saying that, for once, this is the other side of the coin. There should be more stories like this, so that public perception can finally meet in the middle again, where it all started and where I see GW's own fluff being situated.

tl;dr: What Brother SRM said.

 -Loki- wrote:

Yes. It's even wrong stating that makind finds Norse mythology facsinating, because when you say mankind, you're at least talking about the majority of the human race. The majority of the human race doesn't even find Norse mythology fascinating, let alone a comic character or video game character.

Outright stating 'mankind finds fascinating' is a bold claim, and in this case, yes, very wrong.

Sorry, "Mankind" doesn't have anything about majority in there. It just references a portion of humanity. Which is undeniable. Didn't say mankind as a whole, didn't say "most of", didn't say "much of". Just said mankind, referring to the human species. And even then, a large portion (relatively) finds each of these things interesting.

Semantics, my friend. They're important.
-TheCaptain

 LoneLictor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?

It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.

So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.

To an extent, yes. No one wants to hear about "This guy has been trained for decades, has fought a thousand battles on a hundred worlds, and has slain numberless enemies. Now watch as a half starved human punches him to death." The idea that marines are only marginally better than regular humans is just stupid, why spend so much resources making them if they can't do anything apparently?

That's a good point. For all the training and SCIENCE it takes to make a space marine, they need to get a lot of use out of them before they die. It's even worse with Grey Knights, who are even hard to train & create.

Buttons wrote:To an extent, yes. No one wants to hear about "This guy has been trained for decades, has fought a thousand battles on a hundred worlds, and has slain numberless enemies. Now watch as a half starved human punches him to death." The idea that marines are only marginally better than regular humans is just stupid, why spend so much resources making them if they can't do anything apparently?

Here we are at hyperbole again. I often have the feeling that, to a lot of people, Space Marines absolutely have to be a bunch of plot-armoured supermen punching hordes of enemies left and right with maybe a token casualty in their squad. If they can't do this, they're apparently completely useless, even when they are still represented as the best warriors the Imperium can produce.

Modern militaries spend ~5 million US dollar on a single Abrams tank compared to $33.500 for a Sherman in WW2. And still, an Abrams can be taken down by a $750 RPG. "Why spend so much resources making Abrams?"

Sometimes you just need to project as much power as possible onto a spot as small as possible, which is when you get the Space Marines. They don't have to waltz through there with godmode on, they just are the best way to do it.

... are you sure an Abrams can be taken down by an RPG? I was under the impression that those tanks are nigh impossible to kill. Not that I have a military background or anything.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I've seen several books that make it seem way too easy to kill Space Marines. Probably just due to the author not understanding how they're supposed to work.

most killing strikes to a space marine in novels I have read are

head shot with a bolter round, pretty much a given if a bomb hits your head even if you have a helmet on you are dead
shots/strikes to the joints in the armor, pretty mush has been happening since armor was made
a mob against one, well they all can't be Calgar

I think that the depiction of overly weak marines is just as immersion breaking as the (far more frequent) depiction of invincible god-marines. My favorite 40k stories are those where the marines fall somewhere in the middle: Henry Zou does this well with his Chaos Marines, IMO.

A single marine is quite dangerous, but he's not invincible, and will end up quite dead in the wrong situation, like charging across an open field headlong into a Heavy Bolter nest, getting ambushed by a squad of Kabalite Warriors, or getting overwhelmed in close-combat by a ravenous horde of tyrannids. On the other hand, the Marine, a veteran of decades of warfare, likely knows how to maximize his strengths in almost every combat situation imaginable, choosing to strike when he knows victory is attainable, or at the very least creating a situation wherein he can take as many foes with him before he dies. Rather than charge the Heavy Bolter head on, the Marine would suppress it with bolter fire while a squadmate flanked and cleared it with a frag. Scouts, auspex sweeps, and veteran intuition would prevent the marines from walking into the Kabalite ambush, allowing them to turn the tables on their would-be hunters and launch a surprise attack of the own. The outnumbered marine would fall back from the swarm of charging hormagaunts, taking refuge in a chokepoint to mitigate their advantage of numbers, so he could kill them two by two rather than be taken down under the weight of their charge.

 TheCaptain wrote:
So what's the deal; is BL trying to write their characters closer to In-game statlines? Or is this just horrible writing? I personally was disgusted

I'm sorry, I must have missed the memo where you were made the final arbiter of the relative abilities of all persons in the 40K universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Buttons wrote:To an extent, yes. No one wants to hear about "This guy has been trained for decades, has fought a thousand battles on a hundred worlds, and has slain numberless enemies. Now watch as a half starved human punches him to death." The idea that marines are only marginally better than regular humans is just stupid, why spend so much resources making them if they can't do anything apparently?

Here we are at hyperbole again. I often have the feeling that, to a lot of people, Space Marines absolutely have to be a bunch of plot-armoured supermen punching hordes of enemies left and right with maybe a token casualty in their squad. If they can't do this, they're apparently completely useless, even when they are still represented as the best warriors the Imperium can produce.

Modern militaries spend ~5 million US dollar on a single Abrams tank compared to $33.500 for a Sherman in WW2. And still, an Abrams can be taken down by a $750 RPG. "Why spend so much resources making Abrams?"

Sometimes you just need to project as much power as possible onto a spot as small as possible, which is when you get the Space Marines. They don't have to waltz through there with godmode on, they just are the best way to do it.

QFT.

So, from what I have read of the OP, he has the following issues.
1) Autoguns can kill a Marine. (seems plausible. At that close of range I am sure a sustained burst would be able to do some damage.)
2) Space Marines miss shots. (Yup, the plasma cannon missed. gak happens, even for a superhuman soldier.)
3) Space Marines kill things "inefficently." (Bit of a wording issue, but I viewed it more of them firing into the charging cultists, and the marines each hitting one, maybe two cultists with their bursts, rather than how the OP viewed it as hitting one shot, then drastically missing the rest.)
4) The fact that marines can be knocked down my 3 or 4 cultists. (pretty sure it can happen.)
5) That a knife to the throat kills a marine. (It is a weakness in the Power armor, why not?)

Noisy_Marine wrote:... are you sure an Abrams can be taken down by an RPG? I was under the impression that those tanks are nigh impossible to kill.

Not any RPG for sure, but this one was specifically developed for that job. The weapon system itself supposedly costs $500 with a single projectile coming in at another $250 (admittedly, with the price I'm going by this forum post; then again, I'm sure it is nowhere near the cost of a tank).

Black Library stories have often portrayed the fighting completely different than actual game play, this has been going on forever , a good example is the Dreadnaught , an awe inspiring relentless engine of destruction in print that barely makes it out of the first turn alive in game .

In one Black Library book a space marine gets taken down by a simple spear. (props to the one that figures it out first.)

The WD story is not too unbelievable IMO.

You know, I read the WD story and had a very different take on it.

So, in the story, one Dark Angels Marine is struck by a shotgun blast, followed by focused fire from many cultists firing autoguns-- and even then he is only killed thanks to a lucky hit that penetrates his visor. The cultists with autoguns are also battle-hardened, and they are led by a heretical ex-Commissar who one of the Marines notes as having a high degree of tactical competency. Also, when the Dark Angel with plasma cannon fires on the cultists, they dive deep into cover to avoid being hit.

Another Dark Angel is then assaulted and overwhelmed by a different group of three cultists equipped with melee weapons. The other Dark Angels come to his aid, killing two of the assaulting cultists. The last cultist stabs the Marine in one of his armor's weak points (I think the neck but I don't remember). The downed Marine grabs the cultist's head and crushes it, but as he does so the cultist twists the knife in the Marine's neck and finishes him off, and they die together.

The Marine Sergeant then reflects on how it is rare to take fatal casualties, especially two in a single mission. All of this seems entirely reasonable to me, and meshes well with the game rules to boot. The Marines are very powerful but can be brought down by a mix of concentrated and lucky attacks-- the cultists are weak and ill-equipped relative to the Marines, but are competently led and should not be underestimated.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
So what's the deal; is BL trying to write their characters closer to In-game statlines? Or is this just horrible writing? I personally was disgusted

I'm sorry, I must have missed the memo where you were made the final arbiter of the relative abilities of all persons in the 40K universe.

I'm sorry, you must have also missed pretty much all GW-released fluff on Space Marines. Doesn't matter how crappily the SM codex was written, that's their fluff now, according to GW. Ward is the arbiter, big guy.

 Kaldor wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Buttons wrote:To an extent, yes. No one wants to hear about "This guy has been trained for decades, has fought a thousand battles on a hundred worlds, and has slain numberless enemies. Now watch as a half starved human punches him to death." The idea that marines are only marginally better than regular humans is just stupid, why spend so much resources making them if they can't do anything apparently?

Here we are at hyperbole again. I often have the feeling that, to a lot of people, Space Marines absolutely have to be a bunch of plot-armoured supermen punching hordes of enemies left and right with maybe a token casualty in their squad. If they can't do this, they're apparently completely useless, even when they are still represented as the best warriors the Imperium can produce.

Modern militaries spend ~5 million US dollar on a single Abrams tank compared to $33.500 for a Sherman in WW2. And still, an Abrams can be taken down by a $750 RPG. "Why spend so much resources making Abrams?"

Sometimes you just need to project as much power as possible onto a spot as small as possible, which is when you get the Space Marines. They don't have to waltz through there with godmode on, they just are the best way to do it.

QFT.

Not QFT at all. First, an Abrams has Tungsten-Uranium armor. Like ridiculously thick, hard stuff. Second, a RPG has very little chances of damaging an Abrams, even the new "Tank killing RPG" you posted.

Shown here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fcc_1304114951

That was an Abrams variant without the now-standard in urban environments TUSK upgrade package which includes heavier armor plating, and explosive-reactive anti-projectile countermeasures (as in less RPG hits, and the hits do less damage).

So yeah, maybe an Abrams could get taken down by an RPG. But it would take a LOT of RPG. About the same as the amount of cultists it would take to kill a "GW-fluff" Space marine...

TheCaptain wrote: Not QFT at all. First, an Abrams has Tungsten-Uranium armor. Like ridiculously thick, hard stuff.

What, you mean the Chobham armour that gets fitted on the Challenger 2 as well?
http://web.archive.org/web/20110604101651/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551418/MoD-kept-failure-of-best-tank-quiet.html
Or perhaps like what the IDF Merkava sports?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/hezbollah-anti-tank-fire-causing-most-idf-casualties-in-lebanon-1.194528

Let's face it, the Soviets (and now the Russians) have developed these two-stage babies specifically to deal with NATO reactive armour; it's kind of naive to ignore it just because of the nimbus and because the military has a habit of keeping such weaknesses out of public perception.
http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-1-04/rpg-threat.htm
Here's the newest product of the line: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/rpg-30-unveiled-the-m1-abrams-killer/

I've been reading a lot of Ork-based BL stuff, as I've been working on my Ork army. After reading Hellsreach, Rynn's World and The Purging of Kadillus, i can safely say Marines die a lot more than we are lead to believe sometimes. It really depends on where the focus of the narrative comes from with BL books.

If the story is from the imperium point of view, each space marine death is a travesty, a warrior selling his life to buy precious moments for his brothers-in-arms, or fighting to the death to defend his objective.
If the story is from a xeno's angle,. every single Space Marine is a high-priority target. A "tuff hummie" that every alien wants the glory of killing.

From whats been quoted, the Dark Vengance book sounds about right. A squad of babbling, frothing zealots throw themselves against a small unit of DA. The Da fight valiantly, but are overrun/ overwhelmed by the maddened religious zealots, fighting not for themselves, but for their dark gods and masters.

It is easy to assume that cultists are weak, ill equipped morons, but if they're surviving the touch of chaos, then they are probably made of tougher stuff than they look.

 Gorgrimm wrote:

I'd much rather see the small, powerful SM armies cutting swathes through the ranks of hordes than fielding half a company each game.

The sad thing is that GW did once represent that in a game - which unfortunately is really no longer supported. The latest incarnation of the Epic rules did a great job of implementing marines as a rapid, elite strikeforce that hit like a hammer but would never outnumber anyone and couldn't afford too many casualties or protracted engagements. You could very easily be fighting with 10:1 odds with the game still being well balanced.

Assuming its an excerpt of the BL-novel to support the starter-box release and we don't know the full story yet, I'd guess ( as I am one of the fools who subscribed.. ) this is meant to show us each unit and model we find in said box.
Maybe if reds8n or any regular of the BL N&R thread gave it a thumbs up in a review, it could be acceptable even if the small bit in a WD isn't good. Looking at the OP, this sounds rather like another "firewarrior" accident...

Lynata wrote:What we have here, gentlemen, is nothing but the opposite extreme to the countless novels, computer games and RPGs that have hyped the Astartes up to a status of immortal demigods, nigh-impervious to barrages of enemy fire.

Yes the way the OP presented it, reads like its extreme and opposed to the background of 40k.
Lucky punches may happen, but I don't think a "success" of a few cheap 4pt models against something in the 15pts range should be part of a story if the goal is to promote the box contents.

But thats not the worst part.
The issue may be, if the course is to get those models names and a background, they will become those 'characters' and aren't given the freedom of the unnamed, basic model that will rely upon YOUR creativity and imagination.
Sure this will generate a few bucks for the company, selling boxes and books, audios and such.
Still the main advantage of 40k was its been a setting. Not a story. Not tied to a 'cinematic' . What happens if the 'replay' doesn't work?
When the 'characters' of the story can't provide? Because we haven't seen the power level of the rest, those who aren't troops....
Basically the idea of a combined release of GW and BL is good. Just don't tie all those models to a story. Maybe a few characters, maybe a type or specific loadout, but please not an all encompassing backstory.

So back to the subject of Space Marines in 40k in general.
Sure we see different takes from different authors.

But, and thats a big but, there is a given 'food chain'. If the enhanced super soldier cannot perform at the level it is expected to, because something the PDF should be able to handle is now going to get lucky, I believe this means the background was sacrificed to the demands of the bean-counters. The believable 'food-chain' ignored because a limited setup made for a pretty limited story.

What is a belivable 'food chain'?
- a civilian as the lowliest
- an angry and armed civilian
- a trained soldier
- a veteran soldier
- a enhanced soldier
- a altered human, pimped to super soldier

..and cultistst are at best on par with angry civilians IMO...

Maybe if that was traitor guard, or mutants or at least possessed..but no. Cultists, something that makes Grots look like valuable assets.

Wouldn't be much of an advert for the Chaos force in the boxed game if the cultists just got ripped to shreds in a short one sided ass kicking by the Marines...

Dunno, BL advertised the C.Z.dunn book/audio combo as Dark Angel related...

And there are the chosen, the chaos Lord and the hellbrute, wouldn't they want the spotlight in this?
If the Chaos meatshields can handle it on their own....

The "problem" with the foodchain is that it can easily be interrupted. It's not a simple "A will always defeat B" like you'd expect it when talking about a food chain in nature. Case in point, put that "trained soldier" behind a lascannon or give him a plasma gun, and he may easily take out one of those "altered human pimped-up super soldiers". Hell, even an angry and armed civilian could do that, he's just less likely to get his hands on that kind of equipment. But then again, those Cultists in the story aren't doing a 1:1 but swarming the squad, right?

As I said, it still doesn't really fit in with my own interpretation of the fluff (unless those Cultists were themselves boosted in some way, with combat stims or daemonic sorcery) - but so do a lot of "Pro-Marine" books that many people around here present as gospel, so ... meh. From what I can see it's but a case of "getting a taste of their own medicine" for once.

xttz wrote:The sad thing is that GW did once represent that in a game - which unfortunately is really no longer supported. The latest incarnation of the Epic rules did a great job of implementing marines as a rapid, elite strikeforce that hit like a hammer but would never outnumber anyone and couldn't afford too many casualties or protracted engagements. You could very easily be fighting with 10:1 odds with the game still being well balanced.

It saddens me that I missed the great era of Epic. I wish GW would pick it up again and expand it. :(

The fluff was awful. In every way.

L. Wrex

 Lynata wrote:

TheCaptain wrote: Not QFT at all. First, an Abrams has Tungsten-Uranium armor. Like ridiculously thick, hard stuff.

What, you mean the Chobham armour that gets fitted on the Challenger 2 as well?
http://web.archive.org/web/20110604101651/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551418/MoD-kept-failure-of-best-tank-quiet.html
Or perhaps like what the IDF Merkava sports?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/hezbollah-anti-tank-fire-causing-most-idf-casualties-in-lebanon-1.194528

Let's face it, the Soviets (and now the Russians) have developed these two-stage babies specifically to deal with NATO reactive armour; it's kind of naive to ignore it just because of the nimbus and because the military has a habit of keeping such weaknesses out of public perception.
http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-1-04/rpg-threat.htm
Here's the newest product of the line: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/11/20/rpg-30-unveiled-the-m1-abrams-killer/

So what, two RPGs have killed DONE DAMAGE to those (the Challenger 2) tanks in four years? Not destroyed, pierced the armour. Akin to doing a wound to a model and it rolls it's save. Or rolling to pen and getting a stunned result.

Not to mention neither of those are the Abrams, which the discussion was about. Kindof naive to think you can just change your argument to suit an advantageous positioning of yourself.

That'd be like someone coming in and saying "Well, the SM were right to die so easy! Guardsmen die that easy and they're both infantry with skin and faces."

You prove my point. It can happen, but it's (comparatively) as rare as a SM getting killed.

While I generally detest SM bolter porn and DO yearn for more realistic (yet still superhuman) depictions of SM in battle, I think this particular story swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. 3 cultists for 2 SM? That ratio has to be one in a million, otherwise Chaos has as good as won. I mean how many cultists are there in the galaxy vs SM.

TheCaptain wrote:So what, two RPGs have killed DONE DAMAGE to those (the Challenger 2) tanks in four years? Not destroyed, pierced the armour. Akin to doing a wound to a model and it rolls it's save. Or rolling to pen and getting a stunned result.
Not to mention neither of those are the Abrams, which the discussion was about. Kindof naive to think you can just change your argument to suit an advantageous positioning of yourself.

What? First of all, I'm not sure what you expect from anti-tank weapons. The real world isn't some action movie where a tank blows up leaving nothing but a pile of armour plates. Weapons such as these are designed to pierce the armour and do sufficient damage to either the machinery or the crew to disable/neutralise it. This is the way tanks and weapons against them have worked and evolved since ... about when they were first invented.

Secondly, the report isn't about two Challengers and their crews being "damaged" in four years, but about a government intentionally misleading the public and its own soldiers into thinking that this cannot happen. This was revealed only as the family of one injured tanker came forward to dispute the government's claim, so who knows how many other instances of this there were? Not me, and certainly not you either. What the report does is to dispel the common myth that the Challenger's armour - the same kind used on Abrams tanks - is somehow invulnerable against weapons such as these.

See also: http://web.archive.org/web/20061125174132/http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw030620_1_n.shtml
"Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where 25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds from an unidentified weapon disabled a US tank near Najaf after penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartment and one was lost in Baghdad after its external auxiliary power unit was set on fire by medium-calibre fire."

And that's just from the short war; unfortunately we lack accurate numbers from insurgency fighting.
I certainly don't claim every single RPG-29 fired on an M1 has to kill it - what I did say it can happen. Which you opposed and then went on to claim how it can "maybe" happen but it would take "a LOT". So please, it's actually you trying to turn the argument around.

Thirdly, it appears you have missed the point. My argument isn't even about the Abrams at all; I've pulled it as a random example to show why Space Marines are worth the investment even when not deployed in godmode. I could have just as well compared the worth of an AH-64 Apache helo to a Stinger missile, just off the top of my head. Or the cost of a modern infantryman's training and equipment compared to that single 7.62mm FMJ bullet that can take him out. This isn't a particularly difficult concept, and Space Marines are certainly not the only elite Imperial force that take a lot of resources to raise. Others die even easier.

TheCaptain wrote:It can happen, but it's (comparatively) as rare as a SM getting killed.

Right, it's not like entire Chapters have been wiped out by non-Marines in the past, huh?

rabidaskal wrote:That ratio has to be one in a million, otherwise Chaos has as good as won. I mean how many cultists are there in the galaxy vs SM.

Whilst I do agree with the pendulum comparison, I would like to add that "one to a million" is way too far on the other side yet again. Let's keep in mind that the Space Marines are not the Imperium's only defenders. Indeed, they are not even its most important defenders. That would be the Imperial Guard and the PDF as well as locally raised Frateris Militias, the armies that truly keep those millions of cultists at bay. If we were to take another look at the real world again, it's like comparing the SEALs to the normal army. You wouldn't throw the former into a straight confrontation with a military force either - they would perform admirably for the short time they survive, sure, but the sheer numbers would soon overwhelm them. They've got other jobs to do, and so have the Space Marines. Their focus on rapid reaction and mobility is as important as their superhuman toughness and melee power. With the Astartes, it's all about "shock and awe" rather than protracted trench fighting (though I believe one or two Chapters have actually specialised in siege warfare).

 TheCaptain wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Yes. It's even wrong stating that makind finds Norse mythology facsinating, because when you say mankind, you're at least talking about the majority of the human race. The majority of the human race doesn't even find Norse mythology fascinating, let alone a comic character or video game character.

Outright stating 'mankind finds fascinating' is a bold claim, and in this case, yes, very wrong.

Sorry, "Mankind" doesn't have anything about majority in there. It just references a portion of humanity. Which is undeniable. Didn't say mankind as a whole, didn't say "most of", didn't say "much of". Just said mankind, referring to the human species. And even then, a large portion (relatively) finds each of these things interesting.

Semantics, my friend. They're important.
-TheCaptain

man·kind
   [man-kahynd for 1; man-kahynd for 2] Show IPA
noun
1.
the human race; human beings collectively without reference to sex; humankind.

No, it isn't about majority, it refers to 100% to the entire population of Earth.

It's called a figure of speech. If everyone used every single word according to its dictionary definition, meeting all the requirements set by that definition, no human in history would've been able to use the word 'mankind' as there will always be at least single person that does not meet the criteria posited.

Khem... Back on topic. The reason why marines are depicted as such is because the books is merely a sales vehicle for the starter set. Assuming the marines were as strong as it's suggested in the fluff, there would have to be at least a hundred cultist to fight off one tactical squad. Considering there's merely two squads of ten in the box, it's no wonder they got upped in power so that the chaos player doesn't feel like he stands no chance in a game of 40K against his friend who picked up the DA part of the set. In "real life" those three cultist would've been turned to red mist were that marine reach for his pistol and combat blade. Oh, well, it's just a dumb promotional piece of fluff...

It was one of the worst bits of writing I have read in a long time. That was disregarding what even happened in the excerpt. It isn't a mobbing, it is 10 Cultists that charged them, 9 after one was shot at the very beginning. The Marines should have won that in seconds. That is 10 Marines with bolters and plasma weapons. That sort of firepower should have cut down unarmoured Cultists no problem. Just a weak plot and weak writing.

Mankind is still a stupid way to describe it. If the vast majority of people abide by it, fine, I could live with that. But saying that the vast majority of the human race enjoys comics and Norse mythology, no.

Plus, I'm aware of what a figure of speech is, but the way he is tossing about does deserve the definition. It is about a majority or a significant proportion of humans which could be considered a whole; it does not refer to a niche of humanity.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Mankind is still a stupid way to describe it. If the vast majority of people abide by it, fine, I could live with that. But saying that the vast majority of the human race enjoys comics and Norse mythology, no.

Plus, I'm aware of what a figure of speech is, but the way he is tossing about does deserve the definition. It is about a majority or a significant proportion of humans which could be considered a whole; it does not refer to a niche of humanity.

Sorry, that's your opinion. Fact of the matter is, using "Mankind" as an indicator of the species isn't wrong, even if you ignorantly deem it "stupid". I'm sorry you can't "Live with that" but I never denoted vast majority. I only referenced species. Which your definition denotes. I used it as a collective for human beings. Not all of them; not the majority of them, but merely a collective of members of the race. You can interpret it however you want, just know certain interpretations are narrow enough to be actually wrong. Also, taking anything at full definitive value and not accounting for a measure of hyperbole looks silly. You've been speaking the language for a while, I assume. Understand it, and it's mechanics, please.

English major trumps googling "mankind definition" for the sake of an argument.

 Lynata wrote:
The "problem" with the foodchain is that it can easily be interrupted. It's not a simple "A will always defeat B" like you'd expect it when talking about a food chain in nature. Case in point, put that "trained soldier" behind a lascannon or give him a plasma gun, and he may easily take out one of those "altered human pimped-up super soldiers". Hell, even an angry and armed civilian could do that, he's just less likely to get his hands on that kind of equipment. But then again, those Cultists in the story aren't doing a 1:1 but swarming the squad, right?

There is no problem of this picking order if the "showcased" cultists are what we see in this starter box. I thought thats a given here.

If unit A has nothing to achieve anything beyond scratching the paintjob of unit B, then people will question why unit A is part of the boxed set at all. So unit A got a fluff justification based on the possibilities of the tabletop game ( lucky punch ).
So tell me, which role has the other chaos scum got? If the chaos lord for example fails to kill more than 2 marines, gnashing of teeth ensues?
Because as the supposed alpha dog of that warband, shouldn't he be the deadliest?


I know the setup looks imbalanced, DA maybe around 750pts IMO. Chaos has to be expensive, to come close.
Thus chaotic "upgrades". Something that isn't WYSIWYG.
The cannonfodder ( cultists ), however may act as ablative wounds, but the punch is most likely the CSM/Hellbrute and should have been in the story too. Would Grots need to win, to be useful?

Ah, that comment was more directed towards "food chain thinking" in general, rather than just this specific instance. I too noticed that the boxed set seems a bit unbalanced pointswise.

As for the Chaos Space Marines not being in the story, I would actually expect them to make an appearance, too, if the book is supposed to accompany the new minis.
Wait ... is this excerpt not from a Black Library novel? Is it really just a short story as they occasionally appear in WD? BL was mentioned in the opening post, so I thought we'd be talking a novel here rather than GW fluff. Important difference.

If it's a "full" short story, I suppose they left out CSM because they had so much focus in the past, and they wanted to highlight Cultists for a change, showing that those can be "cool" too. This would obviously be a marketing decision, then, much like we're used to read more about Space Marine fights rather than Imperial Guard engagements, regardless of the latter actually happening more often.

"Ignoring established fluff" would be a space marine in flak armour worshipping the god Yahweh and shooting a flamer out of his arse.

What you are describing is "slightly different from established fluff". No need to exaggerate.

It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

 Testify wrote:


It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

I don't like Dark Eldar. At all. Not even a little bit. I'd never buy their models, proxy them, just not a fan.

That said, if there was a story in WD about their elite soldiers getting melee'd to death by Tau Etherals, I'd be rather annoyed. Fanboyism has nothing to do with it.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Mankind is still a stupid way to describe it. If the vast majority of people abide by it, fine, I could live with that. But saying that the vast majority of the human race enjoys comics and Norse mythology, no.

Plus, I'm aware of what a figure of speech is, but the way he is tossing about does deserve the definition. It is about a majority or a significant proportion of humans which could be considered a whole; it does not refer to a niche of humanity.

Sorry, that's your opinion. Fact of the matter is, using "Mankind" as an indicator of the species isn't wrong, even if you ignorantly deem it "stupid". I'm sorry you can't "Live with that" but I never denoted vast majority. I only referenced species. Which your definition denotes. I used it as a collective for human beings. Not all of them; not the majority of them, but merely a collective of members of the race. You can interpret it however you want, just know certain interpretations are narrow enough to be actually wrong. Also, taking anything at full definitive value and not accounting for a measure of hyperbole looks silly. You've been speaking the language for a while, I assume. Understand it, and it's mechanics, please.

English major trumps googling "mankind definition" for the sake of an argument.

Fine, fine, you can use it to say that mankind enjoys it, however are far better word to describe a collective of humans would be 'people'. I still feel that saying mankind is slightly askew.

"I had to stop it, or mankind would be doomed!"

"I had to stop it, or the soldiers would be doomed!"

See my perspective?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Testify wrote:


It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

I don't like Dark Eldar. At all. Not even a little bit. I'd never buy their models, proxy them, just not a fan.

That said, if there was a story in WD about their elite soldiers getting melee'd to death by Tau Etherals, I'd be rather annoyed. Fanboyism has nothing to do with it.

You're exaggerating again.

What actually happened here? A Space Marine didn't hit every single time. Well okay. They're not supposed to. Even the most accurate of shots will miss 90% of the time. a 1/3 hit rate against a moving target isn't bad.

And then swamped in CC? We went through this in background. You said a marine weighs about 400lb? Assuming the average cultist is 150lb, 3 of them would easily be able to take down a space marine.

You'd have a point if a single cultist had knifed a marine to death. But he didn't. So yeah, I call fanboyism.

 Testify wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Testify wrote:


It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

I don't like Dark Eldar. At all. Not even a little bit. I'd never buy their models, proxy them, just not a fan.

That said, if there was a story in WD about their elite soldiers getting melee'd to death by Tau Etherals, I'd be rather annoyed. Fanboyism has nothing to do with it.

You're exaggerating again.

What actually happened here? A Space Marine didn't hit every single time. Well okay. They're not supposed to. Even the most accurate of shots will miss 90% of the time. a 1/3 hit rate against a moving target isn't bad.

And then swamped in CC? We went through this in background. You said a marine weighs about 400lb? Assuming the average cultist is 150lb, 3 of them would easily be able to take down a space marine.

You'd have a point if a single cultist had knifed a marine to death. But he didn't. So yeah, I call fanboyism.

Space marines that train for decades shouldn't be hitting 1/3 times.

Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

And a single cultist did knife a marine to death. Read the story. He "the third cultist is able to jam his serrated blade into the soft seal between [brother] Selaphiel's helmet and chestplate." Well, considering we have fabrics/materiels that can stop knives NOW integrated into armor, in 30,000 years (Power-armour-creation time-ish) I hardly see a makeshift cult-knife having an easy time stabbing through the gaps between his armor, assuming he had anything better than kevlar in there. No wait, Space Marines just wear wool shirts under their armor, don't they?

Again, I don't own a single space marine model, I've never played their army, I don't particularly like their over the top fluff. They just happen to be the protagonists to the story whose associated game I immerse myself in; I play guard, and the fact that guard achieve what SM can (albeit in greater numbers) is what makes guard impressive. If anything, I'm an IG fanboy.

So yeah, call fanboyism if you like, go ahead. Call horse. Call lamp. Call santa claus. I can call you an XBox if I like. Doesn't make it right. Your logic is ignorantly warped in that by supporting established SM fluff, I am thus fanboy. I assume if I said I think the new Tomb Kings in Space fluff for necrons is silly, I'd be an established OldCron fanboy too. And if I said dogs should get fed 3 times a day "LOLOL DOG FANBOI" would be called?

Yeah. I'm exaggerating. Because hyperbole is the clearest way to expose awful logic.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Space marines that train for decades shouldn't be hitting 1/3 times.

Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

And a single cultist did knife a marine to death. Read the story.

So yeah, call fanboyism if you like, go ahead. Call horse. Call lamp. Call santa claus. Doesn't make it right.

Why not? Why would you assume that a marine's training is capable of ignoring the (probably considerable) recoil on a plasma gun? It stinks of fanboyism to say that a marine will ALWAYS be deadly accurate, regardless of any environmental circumstances whatsoever, bordering on the insane. Do you know the light levels? Do you know the wind speed?

Force = mass*velocity. I'm a big guy and i've been taken down by people far smaller than me. It can happen to marines too.

And it's generally accepted that marines have a week point below their helmet, in the neck area. He got stabbed in it. Honestly, where is the problem with that?

 TheCaptain wrote:
Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

Codex: Dark Angels (emphasis mine) wrote:On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

Why not? Why would you assume that a marine's training is capable of ignoring the (probably considerable) recoil on a plasma gun? It stinks of fanboyism to say that a marine will ALWAYS be deadly accurate, regardless of any environmental circumstances whatsoever, bordering on the insane. Do you know the light levels? Do you know the wind speed?

Force = mass*velocity. I'm a big guy and i've been taken down by people far smaller than me. It can happen to marines too.

And it's generally accepted that marines have a week point below their helmet, in the neck area. He got stabbed in it. Honestly, where is the problem with that?

Light levels? Wind speed?

Well first of all, wind speed doesn't affect plasma, AFAIK, second, 1/3 accuracy is just poor. Sorry, no way you can argue that. Especially given the constant training they take.

You can say it was bad luck, sure, but trying to tell me it's because of light levels and wind speed is ridonkulus. The cultists were at a short enough range where they could charge the marines (within 12 inches, clearly )

For the neck thing, yeah. It's a weak point, but I don't expect a knife to do it. Like I said, we have, today, flexible joint materials that could stop that. I see the neck-weakness as a fair explanation for getting, oh, shot in the neck, fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

Codex: Dark Angels (emphasis mine) wrote:On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

Didn't know this; if this is still true, then wow. That's kindof silly, but I'll concede that. Not sure why they'd want to lower their inertia. Especially considering if they WERE lowered to the weight of a human being, with their enhanced muscles and enhanced strength from the suit, they'd be able to run at breakneck speeds and jump upwards of 3 yards in the air.

I smell discontinuity.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Why not? Why would you assume that a marine's training is capable of ignoring the (probably considerable) recoil on a plasma gun? It stinks of fanboyism to say that a marine will ALWAYS be deadly accurate, regardless of any environmental circumstances whatsoever, bordering on the insane. Do you know the light levels? Do you know the wind speed?

Force = mass*velocity. I'm a big guy and i've been taken down by people far smaller than me. It can happen to marines too.

And it's generally accepted that marines have a week point below their helmet, in the neck area. He got stabbed in it. Honestly, where is the problem with that?

Light levels? Wind speed?

Well first of all, wind speed doesn't affect plasma, AFAIK, second, 1/3 accuracy is just poor. Sorry, no way you can argue that. Especially given the constant training they take.

You can say it was bad luck, sure, but trying to tell me it's because of light levels and wind speed is ridonkulus. The cultists were at a short enough range where they could charge the marines (within 12 inches, clearly )

For the neck thing, yeah. It's a weak point, but I don't expect a knife to do it. Like I said, we have, today, flexible joint materials that could stop that. I see the neck-weakness as a fair explanation for getting, oh, shot in the neck, fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

Codex: Dark Angels (emphasis mine) wrote:On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

Didn't know this; if this is still true, then wow. That's kindof silly, but I'll concede that. Not sure why they'd want to lower their inertia. Especially considering if they WERE lowered to the weight of a human being, with their enhanced muscles and enhanced strength from the suit, they'd be able to run at breakneck speeds and jump upwards of 3 yards in the air.

I smell discontinuity.

Your forgetting 1 very important, key issue here... It's all made up fiction. It's not real.

When dealing with made up things, authors can take a certain "creative" appraoch, to help make the story interesting. Who is genuinely gonna buy a book that begins: "The 10 cultists charged the Space Marines. Before they could take more than a few steps, the accurate bolter fire from the marines killed them all. The end"

Really, this is a silly post. A story is a story, and these "improbabilities" help keep it interesting. Just take a step back and don't take it all so personally.

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
... are you sure an Abrams can be taken down by an RPG? I was under the impression that those tanks are nigh impossible to kill. Not that I have a military background or anything.

RPGS cannot disable an Abrams tank or remotely come close to destroying it. All they can do is destroy the tank tracks.
My cousin was an Artillery Regiment and they shot rpgs at them all the time and it just bounced off.
Their armor is what saved them not their skills.
Now humvees would get owned.

Now on Space Marines getting killed by auto guns the writer is just an idiot. Because that would be one hell of a lucky shot.

TheCaptain wrote:Didn't know this; if this is still true, then wow.

I posted that quote on the very first page of this thread, along with a few other remarks of the things that supposedly violate GW fluff.

TheCaptain wrote:Not sure why they'd want to lower their inertia. Especially considering if they WERE lowered to the weight of a human being, with their enhanced muscles and enhanced strength from the suit, they'd be able to run at breakneck speeds and jump upwards of 3 yards in the air.

*shrug* Perhaps that's the point? Though I would not necessarily reach for such high numbers. More importantly would be that a normal weight would enable them to operate in an environment designed for humans. How many threads did dakka have about Space Marines unable to use stairs?

TheCaptain wrote:I smell discontinuity.

Discontinuity would necessitate GW having offered different fluff in the past, which to my knowledge they did not. What you could do is claim physical improbability or something like that.

TheCaptain wrote:Well, considering we have fabrics/materiels that can stop knives NOW integrated into armor, in 30,000 years (Power-armour-creation time-ish) I hardly see a makeshift cult-knife having an easy time stabbing through the gaps between his armor, assuming he had anything better than kevlar in there. No wait, Space Marines just wear wool shirts under their armor, don't they?

What they wear under the armoured plates is a suit made of electrically motivated fibre bundles, and that's it. Anything more would just needlessly obstruct the interface. The waste recyclers, the drug dispensers, the half a dozen connectors on the backside of the armour all need to link up with the Marine's body.

That aside, the knife does not necessarily have to be makeshift. Monofilament melee weapons (which can cut even through power armour plating!) do exist, and it's not just the Eldar / Dark Eldar who have access to them. I'm willing to give the story the benefit of the doubt when it says that the seal between helmet and chestplate is soft enough for normal knives, though. After all, this isn't exactly the first instance of something like this happening. In Codex Planetstrike, there's a bit about Colonel Straken killing a CSM Lord by strangling him with a poisonous barbed root.

Asherian Command wrote:RPGS cannot disable an Abrams tank or remotely come close to destroying it. All they can do is destroy the tank tracks.

Even the Army itself already admitted the opposite of what you say.

Asherian Command wrote:My cousin was an Artillery Regiment and they shot rpgs at them all the time and it just bounced off.

Then your cousin was lucky that insurgents are mostly using RPG-7s and not RPG-29s. Huge difference.

Established fluff. That means something to us fans but to the writers or mat ward it means nothing. They write stuff to sell more models. Why should they be bothered by what a marine can and cant do. They still sell and will continue to do so

There's also something to be said for BL =/= Canon. The writers can twist the world of 40k to their advantage, they don't have to stick to Codex-like fluff.

My main thing with making the SM die so much is I think they will need to change the whole 1000 per chapter rule =P I always thought that was a bit low anyways if you start raising the casualty numbers for every small battle and suddenly the chapters ability to recruit and train new space marines won't be able to keep up.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
So if you've gotten your hands on the Dark Vengeance edition of White Dwarf, and read through it, you'll have noticed that excerpt-story by C.Z. Dunn.





Thoughts?
-TheCaptain

That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!

P.S. Wind does effect plasma as plasma does indeed have mass. Credible in this account though? No, as you would need intense wind speeds to noticeably drift a plasma bolt during it's quick flight.

 TheCaptain wrote:
I'm sorry, you must have also missed pretty much all GW-released fluff on Space Marines. Doesn't matter how crappily the SM codex was written, that's their fluff now, according to GW. Ward is the arbiter, big guy

Take it easy son.

Perhaps, in the interests of furthering the conversation, you could outline the exact combat capabilities of members of the Astartes squad in question, compare those to the capabilities of the Heretic squad in question, compile a list of all relevant factors and an analysis of their effects on the skirmish as outlined in the passage in question, and then give us your summary?

Because at the moment all we've got from you is "Marines are the best hurr durr, no way would that happen".

Which is wrong.

The story is bad, but not because of the abilities of the Marines or the Heretics. It's just not very well written.

Have a nice day

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the fiction in the starter set is always rubbish. It's supposed to wet the appetite of new gamers, not be anything spectacular.

It also appears to be more "gamey" than proper fluff...maybe it's to help new gamers get into the game?

For example when the guys at GW are introducing someone to the game, if someone rolls a 1 on a to-hit roll, it won't just be "bad luck", it'll be "ohh and he's sent it into the other side of the battlefield!". They build a narrative for the new kids, so it's probably something GW are aware of and have consciously tried to implement in the starter set fiction.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I'm sorry, you must have also missed pretty much all GW-released fluff on Space Marines. Doesn't matter how crappily the SM codex was written, that's their fluff now, according to GW. Ward is the arbiter, big guy

Take it easy son.

Perhaps, in the interests of furthering the conversation, you could outline the exact combat capabilities of members of the Astartes squad in question, compare those to the capabilities of the Heretic squad in question, compile a list of all relevant factors and an analysis of their effects on the skirmish as outlined in the passage in question, and then give us your summary?

Because at the moment all we've got from you is "Marines are the best hurr durr, no way would that happen".

Which is wrong.

The story is bad, but not because of the abilities of the Marines or the Heretics. It's just not very well written.

Have a nice day

If you think it makes sense, there's no discussing anything with you. I think it doesn't because fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs; you think it doesn't because, well...seemingly because you simply desire to take an argumentative stance. You've presented no counterpoint, you simply mocked my OP and said it was "wrong". Not a very solid argument, chief.

 TheCaptain wrote:
You've presented no counterpoin

A counterpoint would require that you made a point to start with, champ.

So what is it? Because all I'm getting is "Marines should never miss and, should be unkillable!" with nothing to back that up.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
You've presented no counterpoin

A counterpoint would require that you made a point to start with, champ.

So what is it? Because all I'm getting is "Marines should never miss and, should be unkillable!" with nothing to back that up.

My OP, every post I've made since, and my post immediately preceding your most recent all provide points.

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

(there you go, big guy. Nice and easy)

One particular source-based example incase that's what you mean by my "not backing it up"
pg. 59 Codex: Space Marines: "For a Space Marine to be assigned to a tactical squad he must have proven himself beyond doubt in all aspects of war. [...] This progression must be earned in blood and can last for years or even decades." Elite soldiers trained for years/decades.

I hardly think I needed to point out this horribly common-knowledge, but you seemed to need it. I suggest you familiarize yourself further with 40k's fluff; some of it is quite nice.

Even if you deem I have no point, you've yet to provide one. All you've done is say my stance is either wrong, or doesn't exist.

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

The thing is cultists are endless variables, you've got your well trained cults (Vraksian Traitor Militia, Blood Pact, Sons of Sek, ), your crazed maniacs ( Shriven, Infardi, Children of the Merciful Lord)

Cultists can be well trained elites, untrained canon fodder, contain very fancy gear, have autopistols with cheap slugs or fancy special ammo, basic clubs or monofiliment blades that can potentially even cut through standard power armor, some will have rags and torn equipment, and some will have gear that would even surprise the Astartes for having it. Not to mention there's those that give themselves to daemons and gain power and strength that way...

To say a few cultists couldn't kill an Astartes is not understanding that cults are big, and that they can contain many members of varied quality, not all of them are team canon fodder. Not to mention some humans live and train for decades as well, considering some humans lifespans (nobles usually, but still) can live hundreds of years in a high quality of life.

 TheCaptain wrote:

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

(there you go, big guy. Nice and easy)

One particular source-based example incase that's what you mean by my "not backing it up"
pg. 59 Codex: Space Marines: "For a Space Marine to be assigned to a tactical squad he must have proven himself beyond doubt in all aspects of war. [...] This progression must be earned in blood and can last for years or even decades." Elite soldiers trained for years/decades.

And?

How does that indicate in any way that they'd never miss? Or that the accuracy in the story is unreasonable?

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

(there you go, big guy. Nice and easy)

One particular source-based example incase that's what you mean by my "not backing it up"
pg. 59 Codex: Space Marines: "For a Space Marine to be assigned to a tactical squad he must have proven himself beyond doubt in all aspects of war. [...] This progression must be earned in blood and can last for years or even decades." Elite soldiers trained for years/decades.

And?

How does that indicate in any way that they'd never miss? Or that the accuracy in the story is unreasonable?

Really? Like...really? Or are you just messing with me.

I'll bite.

The veteran sergeant takes three shots with his Plasma Pistol, misses with two, and hits with one.

Heavy Gunner takes aim, shoots at four cultists with his Plasma Cannon and "All Brother Heskia kills is a large patch of undergrowth."

Another bolter-boy takes aim, and fires at a group of four, kills one, and misses the other three, who charge him.

1. Sergeant with decades of training: 33% accuracy at charging-range.
2. Tactical Squad Heavy Gunner (Meaning he showed proficiency enough to carry on using his heavy weapon past Devastator Squad status) misses a very large target of four cultists. Didn't hit one. With a plasma blast. Even if you explain it away that they all jumped out of the way; how? How did all four dodge that?
3. Tactical Marine: 25% accuracy.

Sorry man, that's not befitting of an elite squad of supersoldiers. I'd be just as ticked if it was eldar or chaos marines, frankly. We have better marksmen than this today; and they're unenhanced humans.

I'm afraid if this doesn't sell you; you and I understand SM fluff differently, and I give up trying to convince you. Your adamancy that SM should shoot like Star Wars Stormtroopers is staggering, and exhausting. You've still held back on any counterpoint, other than having me re-explain myself over and over in greater detail; detail which should be obvious to the standard observer.

Yeah, using Codex fluff to rule how a soldier/whatnot performs makes no sense. The Tyranid Codex calls Carnfexen unstoppable but they're actually not that difficult to take down. Gargoyles, according to the BRB, walk when not using their wings . . . but they don't have legs. SM Codex-faithfulness is worlds better in that story.

 60mm wrote:
Yeah, using Codex fluff to rule how a soldier/whatnot performs makes no sense. The Tyranid Codex calls Carnfexen unstoppable but they're actually not that difficult to take down. Gargoyles, according to the BRB, walk when not using their wings . . . but they don't have legs. SM Codex-faithfulness is worlds better in that story.

Codex fluff is the closest thing to canon we have; since it is what GW releases as their description for their own creations. If the next IG codex says Guardsmen all throw pies and drink blended rocks; don't care how silly it is; it's the fluff.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 60mm wrote:
Yeah, using Codex fluff to rule how a soldier/whatnot performs makes no sense. The Tyranid Codex calls Carnfexen unstoppable but they're actually not that difficult to take down. Gargoyles, according to the BRB, walk when not using their wings . . . but they don't have legs. SM Codex-faithfulness is worlds better in that story.

Codex fluff is the closest thing to canon we have; since it is what GW releases as their description for their own creations. If the next IG codex says Guardsmen all throw pies and drink blended rocks; don't care how silly it is; it's the fluff.

Except for the fact that at times alot of the fluff is shown as propaganda, many things will change, and viewpoints often differ.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 60mm wrote:
Yeah, using Codex fluff to rule how a soldier/whatnot performs makes no sense. The Tyranid Codex calls Carnfexen unstoppable but they're actually not that difficult to take down. Gargoyles, according to the BRB, walk when not using their wings . . . but they don't have legs. SM Codex-faithfulness is worlds better in that story.

Codex fluff is the closest thing to canon we have; since it is what GW releases as their description for their own creations. If the next IG codex says Guardsmen all throw pies and drink blended rocks; don't care how silly it is; it's the fluff.

Except for the fact that at times alot of the fluff is shown as propaganda, many things will change, and viewpoints often differ.

Where is that clarified; AFAIK the codices are to be taken at face value. Sure; if there's a sentence in the dex saying "Space Marines are the bestest and can't lose evar!" It's probably hyperbole; but parts of the dex that say SM train for years and have daily training routines, that doesn't seem like hyperbole, just statements.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 60mm wrote:
Yeah, using Codex fluff to rule how a soldier/whatnot performs makes no sense. The Tyranid Codex calls Carnfexen unstoppable but they're actually not that difficult to take down. Gargoyles, according to the BRB, walk when not using their wings . . . but they don't have legs. SM Codex-faithfulness is worlds better in that story.

Codex fluff is the closest thing to canon we have; since it is what GW releases as their description for their own creations. If the next IG codex says Guardsmen all throw pies and drink blended rocks; don't care how silly it is; it's the fluff.

Except for the fact that at times alot of the fluff is shown as propaganda, many things will change, and viewpoints often differ.

Where is that clarified; AFAIK the codices are to be taken at face value. Sure; if there's a sentence in the dex saying "Space Marines are the bestest and can't lose evar!" It's probably hyperbole; but parts of the dex that say SM train for years and have daily training routines, that doesn't seem like hyperbole, just statements.

I think what he meant was that a lot of the fluff really seems blown out of proportion. Most of the codices are filled with stories of how awesome that said army is. It doesn't really seem to be 100% truth all of the time since the canon is constantly in flux if you look at it. When I read the Blood Angels fluff it reads like propaganda that is sent out to Hive Worlds telling them about the great and powerful deeds of said SM chapter.

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
... are you sure an Abrams can be taken down by an RPG? I was under the impression that those tanks are nigh impossible to kill. Not that I have a military background or anything.

Modern-day RPG-7V2 can probably penetrate an Abrams side/rear armor at a relatively close range. In the IDF you learn that even basic RPG's can put dents in the most modern MBT's....

The Challenger 2's were penetrated by RPG-29's, really nasty/sophisticated weapons that are in an entirely different ballpark from RPG-7. Hell surprising the Challenger's survived that.


That being said, there's a key difference between IRL realities and what is entertaining fluff. I agree that making Marines only marginally/slightly better then humans makes for poor stories and defeats the purpose of their representation in fluff. Space Marines are meant to be the ultimate warriors, and the best fluff always reflects this over "watch them get punched out by a human". Now obviously omg-mega Marines that can kill 100 guardsmen by themselves effortlessly with their bare hands is another bad thing. The key is to not take extremes, it's to find the middle ground. I think the best GW depictions of Marines (Night Lords trilogy and what not) achieve this.

This is an entire different world from tabletop, where "Marines are a bit better then humans" makes more sense for gameplay reasons.

I think it works fairly well for the tabletop, if you keep the abstract nature in mind. A Marine whose mini gets "killed" on the TT does not necessarily have to be dead, he's just out of action. Could be lying around on the ground, trying to crawl to a nearby weapon with a chunk of his torso blown to bits. This has zero effect on the ongoing game, but he could be "made whole again" from a fluff perspective. This is where their increased toughness comes into play also.

In my opinion, any and all weapons that get deployed in these games can "neutralise" a Space Marine, and even lasguns are not the "flashlights" they are commonly regarded as. The problem that I see with the tabletop is not the stats, but that the Space Marines are rarely deployed in a style befitting their nature (meaning: high mobility shock-and-awe insertion). What we have in the TT amounts to two sides charging at each other headfirst (which is a tactic Space Marines rightfully suck at, compared to how they'd do it in the fluff). This is more of a problem with the general ruleset and not the armies, though.

 Lynata wrote:
I think it works fairly well for the tabletop, if you keep the abstract nature in mind. A Marine whose mini gets "killed" on the TT does not necessarily have to be dead, he's just out of action. Could be lying around on the ground, trying to crawl to a nearby weapon with a chunk of his torso blown to bits. This has zero effect on the ongoing game, but he could be "made whole again" from a fluff perspective. This is where their increased toughness comes into play also.

In my opinion, any and all weapons that get deployed in these games can "neutralise" a Space Marine, and even lasguns are not the "flashlights" they are commonly regarded as. The problem that I see with the tabletop is not the stats, but that the Space Marines are rarely deployed in a style befitting their nature (meaning: high mobility shock-and-awe insertion). What we have in the TT amounts to two sides charging at each other headfirst (which is a tactic Space Marines rightfully suck at, compared to how they'd do it in the fluff). This is more of a problem with the general ruleset and not the armies, though.

Epic was (is) played at a much larger scale. The analogy was often thrown around that a single assault move in Epic, represented an entire game of 40K: that is to say, two forces battling it out until there is a clear winner and lose.

Now, playing as Space Marines, if you wanted to win an assault in Epic, you needed to plan ahead and stack the deck. You'd teleport in Terminators, deploy via Thunderhawk, and overwhelm the enemy position. In 40k terms, you'd be playing every game with three times as many points as your opponent, complete with orbital and super-heavy assets.

As you rightly observe though, this isn't how regular games of 40K are played though. It's not so much a disparity between the abilities of the models on the table-top versus the fluff, but the types of engagements the Marines are thrown in to. On the table-top they are evenly matched against their enemies, but in the background there strength comes from being able to pick and choose their fights.

Well said.

And I have to say it again, GW needs to reinvigorate Epic! My only experience - if you can call it that - with this system was the Final Liberation computer game, but I certainly had a blast.

This is one of the first time I've agreed with Kaldor...

Cosmic...

Anyway, despite your protestations, what the marines have essentially done is overwatch. They decided to take pot-shots at Cultists who were charging them, with less time to aim and prepare (hence less accuracy), didn't brace for the charge and paid the price.

 TheCaptain wrote:
-Snip!-

I actually really liked the short piece in there. One space marine was taken out by a lucky shot through his optics. Space marines miss, big deal. The cultists obviously dove to the floor to avoid the plascannon, the marine that was tackled could well have been tripped. The principle of leverage is a method of force multiplication.

The space marines also still won the skirmish.

I like these space marines that are tough but have mortality. Thus far, I don't have a problem with the writing they were included in either.

 TheCaptain wrote:

If you think it makes sense, there's no discussing anything with you.

"I know its your opinion but your opinion is wrong! Only I am right!
Most of your arguments have pretty much just been:
No. You are wrong. I am right. Go away.

 -Loki- wrote:
Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.

I know right?

Superman is far more relevant and better-written.

Anyway, the only aspect that really jumps out to me as especially bad is three cultists overpowering a Marine. That's stupid.

Also, the notion that a Space Marine weighs as little as 300 pounds is an amusing one.

We're talking 500 pounds bare minimum, considering the sheer girth and density of their bodies, as well as extra bits, probably close to 700.