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Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

So if you've gotten your hands on the Dark Vengeance edition of White Dwarf, and read through it, you'll have noticed that excerpt-story by C.Z. Dunn.

It actually bothered the crap outta me. Like, I just read it, and I hated it so much I had to make a post. That bad. It completely crapped on the fluff-established expertise of Space Marines. In the excerpt, Tactical Squad Raphael get into a firefight with a 10-man squad of Chaos Cultists (Shamelessly armed and described just like in the box-set)


The tactical squad's one Brother gets shot to bits by concentrated Autogun fire.
Fine, stupid according to fluff, that that can slide. I'll assume they're dumping every shot they've got at the one poor guy.

The veteran sergeant takes three shots with his Plasma Pistol, misses with two, and hits with one.
Okay....again, could just be coincidence...

Heavy Gunner takes aim, shoots at four cultists with his Plasma Cannon and "All Brother Heskia kills is a large patch of undergrowth."
No. In-game, scatters can work like that. Not in fluff. No.

Another bolter-boy takes aim, and fires at a group of four, kills one, and misses the other three, who charge him.
Nah man, I'm probably gunna throw up. This is ridiculous.

Same bolter boy gets TACKLED by the three of the cultists.
400lbs of armour, 250-300lbs of super-strong man...nah, a bunch of scrawny cultists aren't tackling that. No way.

AGAIN, same guy has one of the cultists shot off of him by the Sergeant, kills one with his hands, and the other stabs him in the throat. He was effectively killed by two cultists.
Nope. Brb vomiting.

So what's the deal; is BL trying to write their characters closer to In-game statlines? Or is this just horrible writing? I personally was disgusted; I'm not a space marine player, but they make the story behind the game interesting. Space marines are a good measuring tool that makes my army (IG) awesome. Oh, guard has to use 10,000 guys to do what 50 Space Marines could have done? Badass.

Not anymore though, if you were keeping track, Dark Angels killed three cultists, Cultists killed two Dark Angels. I'm calling bull.

I also really don't like the idea of BL trying to shift fluff closer to the game; it'll be much less interesting. The idea of power-armoured super-warriors going basically kill for kill against wimpy cultists with guns and knives sounds like a crap read.

Thoughts?
-TheCaptain


Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Focused Fire Warrior





Almost at the end of the fluff you are referring to Raphael comments on his losses in the past 50+ years being only 4 in number, while having just lost two marines in one skirmish. Even the Sergeant thinks the writer is being ridiculous.

But to your point, in other fluff SM squads take down hundreds on lesser opponents in hand to hand, only being taken down by the crush of numbers or lucky shots. So comparing this to the Space Wolves and Soul Drinkers novels I have read does make it seem they are trying to humanize the SM more. IMO it is more fun when the fluff treats them like super heroes.

TLDR: SM have been established in the fluff as coming out with minimal losses against impossible odds, even without plot armor. You are right that this seems to be going in a more stat line, IMO worse, direction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/25 20:10:55


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Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

 TheCaptain wrote:
So if you've gotten your hands on the Dark Vengeance edition of White Dwarf, and read through it, you'll have noticed that excerpt-story by C.Z. Dunn.





Thoughts?
-TheCaptain



That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!
Marines are pretty dang tough but even they will die. Most of the current background has been pretty kind to them, so I'm glad to see a more realistic portrayal of Imperial Space Marines. Their best advantage isn't their armor, it's the alpha strike. If they don't have that advantage, well it's game over.

Plus I've always thought that the Marines in game were about as tough as they should be. Terminators are not a lot tougher to kill too, which makes sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/25 20:34:54


 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Havent read it but from what you describe it seems like a blatent attempt to get the kids excited about chaos cultists so they will buy a load, insulting to the older gamers though who know their fluff.
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!


Yours read something like...



(Get it because it made no sense LOLLLOOOLOLOLOLLLOLOL)


Marines are pretty dang tough but even they will die. Most of the current background has been pretty kind to them, so I'm glad to see a more realistic portrayal of Imperial Space Marines. Their best advantage isn't their armor, it's the alpha strike. If they don't have that advantage, well it's game over.


No. It's their armor.

Their tank-like armor. Not to mention their several extra organs. And inhuman ballistic skill.


If you've read any of the established SM fluff, you'd know this isn't a "realistic" portrayal of Space Marines. This is IG Veterans being mistakenly called Space Marines and getting butchered in kind.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a SM fanboy, I don't even play them. I just think such blatant disregard for established fluff is slowed. Just like newcrons fluff. (Who I don't play either.)

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

 TheCaptain wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:


That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!


Yours read something like...



(Get it because it made no sense LOLLLOOOLOLOLOLLLOLOL)

Why are you so offended about marines dying in the first place?
Also I love it when you try to make a come back, it's so cute and try-hard. :3

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/25 22:25:14


 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

Not offended; confused by a sanctioned BL author's ignoring established fluff. I've already stated I don't care for or against marines.

To the second bit...yikes. No comment on how hardcore you must be.

Edit: Also, it's old, I know, but your workout regimen in your thread completely ignores lower back, butt, core, and Lats, which are all glamour muscles. Someone tryna get ripped should pay attention to those.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/25 21:38:09


Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Duncan, B.C

I've got to say, I've always found the SM fluff to be super lame. Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch? Mortality is one of the things that makes a character interesting, so to me the fact that the marines can die, and that they don't necessarily just auto-win is kinda a plus.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.

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Aschknas, Sturmkrieg Sektor

I've seen several books that make it seem way too easy to kill Space Marines. Probably just due to the author not understanding how they're supposed to work.

As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.

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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I've seen several books that make it seem way too easy to kill Space Marines. Probably just due to the author not understanding how they're supposed to work.

I remember an article by Gav Thorpe that basically said "Space Marines are as tough as the story demands" and I think that's pretty dead on. I've read stories where they're one step off from being literal gods on the battlefield, then other stories where they're, well, Toughness 4 with a 3+ save! That's all up to the author and how they handle it.

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Battleship Captain





NYC

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?


It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.


It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Sister Vastly Superior




Colorado

Several black library books have had a single las gun shot kill a marine. The writers always get things wrong. Does anyone remember the cultists in brotherhood of the snake that with PITCHFORKS break a rhino apart and then tear the marine inside of it to pieces? Human cultists just put space marine strength to shame.

Gaunts ghosts have guardsmen with basic las guns gun down an entire squad of world eaters in a matter of minutes AFTER the world eaters caught them by surprise.

You really can't be upset over bad fluff. just ignore it and move on, especially white dwarf fluff no one will remember.

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 TheCaptain wrote:
 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?


It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.


It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.


So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.

   
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Baal Fortress Monastery

That is pretty stupid, but you have to realize that the Black Library isn't there to make canonical fluff. They simply want to write good stories and because of that the way Space Marines are portrayed changes from author to author. Honestly I haven't heard of this author before this novel so its possible we may have another C S Goto on our hands.

Joking aside, its probably just a marketing scheme to make Chaos look cooler since its the next codex.
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

 LoneLictor wrote:


So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.



But wait...I actually loved that.

Is that bad?

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

I personally was disgusted; I'm not a space marine player,

................
*looks at thread responses*
*facepalms*

Yes I agree it is horrible writing, I believe it might be C.S. Goto writing if any. Because I have also read it, it was missing quite a few things. One A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.

I was insulted.

Stupid Marketing ploy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/25 22:38:03


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Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

 Asherian Command wrote:
A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.


You haven't read Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett, have you?

Khorne Daemons 4000+pts
 
   
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Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 DeffDred wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
A single marine 4 man team does not go out unsupported.


You haven't read Brothers of the Snake by Dan Abnett, have you?

Have you ever heard in terms of gaming taking a squad of 4 tactical marines?
NO YOU HAVE NOT!

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Flashy Flashgitz





Pacific Northwest

 TheCaptain wrote:
 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
Who wants to read about a guy wading through hundreds of people with nary a scratch?


It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.


It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.



Yeah the problem is the game mechanics. I've been playing since Rogue Trader days and Marines have NEVER been what they should be in the background. The problem is, and this is not GW bashing, but if marines were represented like they should be in the actual game, you'd field about twenty or thirty and they would indeed be hard to kill, but they wouldn't sell that many. I mean no company can grow not selling things.

I mean earliest things I remember about SM is the fact that they would kill 100 enemies for every one of them that dies. Just doesn't happen in a game of 40k. I think it would be cool, plus, well you invest massive time and energy in training, organs, weapons, equipment and lose 50 -60 guys a battle. Hmm.

But sometimes this universe just doesn't jibe. 1000 SM chapters of 1000 each and that's all. That's one legion size. Not if they fight like they do in the game. SO yeah. Things don't add up.

I'd much rather see the small, powerful SM armies cutting swathes through the ranks of hordes than fielding half a company each game.

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 TheCaptain wrote:
 LoneLictor wrote:


So you think what makes a story interesting is how strong the protagonist is?

You'd love God Man.



But wait...I actually loved that.

Is that bad?


Well, it depends. Did you love it because it was hilarious, or did you love it because it was suspenseful?
   
Made in ca
Emboldened Warlock




Duncan, B.C

 TheCaptain wrote:


It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.

I can see why people are mad that it's going against the established fluff, but the fact that the fluff was ridiculous to begin with makes this seem less rage inducing and more a step in the right direction. I also think that if the marines had more reasonable fluff it would also stop some of the smurf hate that seems to go on.


It's a game about supersoldiers, and everyone else is just supporting characters to show how powerful the supersoldiers are.

Why would it be good for the supersoldiers to get weaker. So they require 120 Marines to kill a Hive fleet instead of 115?


yay.


The other factions in 40k don't really exist just to be a punching bag for the marines, or at least they shouldn't.

I have a hard time enjoying any story in which there is really no risk to the protagonist. Superman was so powerful as to be basically omnipotent, having only a couple of weaknesses, so his comics ended up just being the same story over and over. The same can be said for some of the more clumsily written space marine bits.

I'll use the God-Man comic as an example. Sure it's funny for one page, but if you read comic after comic of God-Man poofing his enemies away, it would quickly become an exercise in futility. The fact that if you made the marines weaker, there would be a chance for them to actually fail. The marines don't always win. It's a fact established by the fluff. But when writers do things like make a small tactical squad with a captain able to carve their way through an entire opposing army, only losing casualties when the squad member has ceased to be useful to the author it just comes off as cheesy and boring, at least to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/26 00:10:36


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Norn Queen






 TheCaptain wrote:
It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.


Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.
   
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Big Fat Gospel of Menoth





The other side of the internet

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!
Marines are pretty dang tough but even they will die. Most of the current background has been pretty kind to them, so I'm glad to see a more realistic portrayal of Imperial Space Marines. Their best advantage isn't their armor, it's the alpha strike. If they don't have that advantage, well it's game over.

Plus I've always thought that the Marines in game were about as tough as they should be. Terminators are not a lot tougher to kill too, which makes sense.


That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying US marines suddenly turn to gak after the first engagement. They still have training, equipment and just about every other advantage you can think of over a small band of cultists. Cultists. Ya know, they insane rabble of the common masses working with gakky guns, no armor, no training TRYING to please a dark god who laughs at their pitiful efforts. Yeah, not buying it.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

RAGE

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A top the tip of the endless spire

The way I look at it is that any 40k battles actually played are the one off battles where (regardless of outcome) like in the HH novel where the Blood Angels, Emperor's Children and Lunar Wolves take numbers of casualties on the world Murder, entire companies in the case of Blood Angels... (Horus Rising iirc)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically it's just a really bad day for the space marines... even if they win... or a normal day if they actually only take a couple casualties...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/26 00:34:19


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Ok, some of it is ridiculous, the three guy's tackling down a space marine for one(though if they were mutated with more muscle mass or w/e then that could balance it out), but having marines actually have to fight in an engagement isn't really a bad thing; it's definitely more of what the writings need at least, and some writers do kind of try for a balance... Though that seems mainly to be in the HH series from what i can recall..

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NYC

 SaintTom wrote:
Ok, some of it is ridiculous, the three guy's tackling down a space marine for one(though if they were mutated with more muscle mass or w/e then that could balance it out), but having marines actually have to fight in an engagement isn't really a bad thing; it's definitely more of what the writings need at least, and some writers do kind of try for a balance... Though that seems mainly to be in the HH series from what i can recall..


The problem is the piece was written to showcase the cultists; and they wanted to showcase them as effective squads instead of adhering to fluff and writing the 10 man squad overrun by 50 cultists and taking 2 casualties (which would have passed the fluff-test.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 -Loki- wrote:
 TheCaptain wrote:
It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.


Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.


Is my assertion that mankind finds them fascinating wrong?

They follow the same concept of "Insanely powerful, inhuman warrior wrecking face."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/26 01:17:27


Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Norn Queen






 TheCaptain wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 TheCaptain wrote:
It's literally the entire premise of Superman, Halo, Viking Religion, and thousands of other stories about powerful beings mankind finds fascinating.


Putting Halo and Superman in there with Norse mythology as 'tales Mankind finds fascinating' is pretty insulting to Norse mythology.


Is my assertion that mankind finds them fascinating wrong?


Yes. It's even wrong stating that makind finds Norse mythology facsinating, because when you say mankind, you're at least talking about the majority of the human race. The majority of the human race doesn't even find Norse mythology fascinating, let alone a comic character or video game character.

Outright stating 'mankind finds fascinating' is a bold claim, and in this case, yes, very wrong.

   
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The sink.

That's the first story I've read where chaos cultists were actually effective. I bet those cultists will get promoted to sacrificial slaves next!
   
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Brisbane

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Several black library books have had a single las gun shot kill a marine. The writers always get things wrong. Does anyone remember the cultists in brotherhood of the snake that with PITCHFORKS break a rhino apart and then tear the marine inside of it to pieces? Human cultists just put space marine strength to shame.


That book was even more confusing, because a few chapters before (or was it after) they had space marines killing thousands of dark eldar and orks. It was like SUPER CULTISTS, AWAY!

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Gaunts ghosts have guardsmen with basic las guns gun down an entire squad of world eaters in a matter of minutes AFTER the world eaters caught them by surprise.


Its not really basic lasguns. Its an ancient power sword, a plasma gun, a hot-shot lasgun, and a bundle of tube charges, as well as scores of heavy metal bolts applied to a skull. The one time a regular lasgun does it is when it is those vitrians, and they use high powered lasguns as well (or lasguns set on super high power). But I can get how those bits would be an issue, when would a power sword, a plasma gun, a hot-shot lasgun and a bundle of tube charges (basically a demo charge) kill marines easily?

Sorry, thats snarky. I just dislike when people say 'oh noes the ghosts killed some marines, its super unrealistic'. Well it is a little unrealistic, but it is future war. And it annoys me even more when they say 'without casualties'. There were buckets of dead, they were all just Nitanghe (or however you spell it).

 IcedAnimals wrote:
You really can't be upset over bad fluff. just ignore it and move on, especially white dwarf fluff no one will remember.


I have to agree with this. Although that fluff excerpt was particularly odd, I have to agree with captain (ha, didn't think I'd be saying that ever) in that it was poorly thought out and poorly written. And unnecessary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/26 02:09:40


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This Dark Vengeance novel was probably rushed into publishing and made to be as close as possible to the boxset. The Dawn of War book series shows how horrible and nonsensical BL books get when they try to be an adaption of a specific game, as opposed to the 40k universe as a whole.

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