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 TheCaptain wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Yes. It's even wrong stating that makind finds Norse mythology facsinating, because when you say mankind, you're at least talking about the majority of the human race. The majority of the human race doesn't even find Norse mythology fascinating, let alone a comic character or video game character.

Outright stating 'mankind finds fascinating' is a bold claim, and in this case, yes, very wrong.

Sorry, "Mankind" doesn't have anything about majority in there. It just references a portion of humanity. Which is undeniable. Didn't say mankind as a whole, didn't say "most of", didn't say "much of". Just said mankind, referring to the human species. And even then, a large portion (relatively) finds each of these things interesting.

Semantics, my friend. They're important.
-TheCaptain

man·kind
   [man-kahynd for 1; man-kahynd for 2] Show IPA
noun
1.
the human race; human beings collectively without reference to sex; humankind.

No, it isn't about majority, it refers to 100% to the entire population of Earth.

It's called a figure of speech. If everyone used every single word according to its dictionary definition, meeting all the requirements set by that definition, no human in history would've been able to use the word 'mankind' as there will always be at least single person that does not meet the criteria posited.

Khem... Back on topic. The reason why marines are depicted as such is because the books is merely a sales vehicle for the starter set. Assuming the marines were as strong as it's suggested in the fluff, there would have to be at least a hundred cultist to fight off one tactical squad. Considering there's merely two squads of ten in the box, it's no wonder they got upped in power so that the chaos player doesn't feel like he stands no chance in a game of 40K against his friend who picked up the DA part of the set. In "real life" those three cultist would've been turned to red mist were that marine reach for his pistol and combat blade. Oh, well, it's just a dumb promotional piece of fluff...

It was one of the worst bits of writing I have read in a long time. That was disregarding what even happened in the excerpt. It isn't a mobbing, it is 10 Cultists that charged them, 9 after one was shot at the very beginning. The Marines should have won that in seconds. That is 10 Marines with bolters and plasma weapons. That sort of firepower should have cut down unarmoured Cultists no problem. Just a weak plot and weak writing.

Mankind is still a stupid way to describe it. If the vast majority of people abide by it, fine, I could live with that. But saying that the vast majority of the human race enjoys comics and Norse mythology, no.

Plus, I'm aware of what a figure of speech is, but the way he is tossing about does deserve the definition. It is about a majority or a significant proportion of humans which could be considered a whole; it does not refer to a niche of humanity.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Mankind is still a stupid way to describe it. If the vast majority of people abide by it, fine, I could live with that. But saying that the vast majority of the human race enjoys comics and Norse mythology, no.

Plus, I'm aware of what a figure of speech is, but the way he is tossing about does deserve the definition. It is about a majority or a significant proportion of humans which could be considered a whole; it does not refer to a niche of humanity.

Sorry, that's your opinion. Fact of the matter is, using "Mankind" as an indicator of the species isn't wrong, even if you ignorantly deem it "stupid". I'm sorry you can't "Live with that" but I never denoted vast majority. I only referenced species. Which your definition denotes. I used it as a collective for human beings. Not all of them; not the majority of them, but merely a collective of members of the race. You can interpret it however you want, just know certain interpretations are narrow enough to be actually wrong. Also, taking anything at full definitive value and not accounting for a measure of hyperbole looks silly. You've been speaking the language for a while, I assume. Understand it, and it's mechanics, please.

English major trumps googling "mankind definition" for the sake of an argument.

 Lynata wrote:
The "problem" with the foodchain is that it can easily be interrupted. It's not a simple "A will always defeat B" like you'd expect it when talking about a food chain in nature. Case in point, put that "trained soldier" behind a lascannon or give him a plasma gun, and he may easily take out one of those "altered human pimped-up super soldiers". Hell, even an angry and armed civilian could do that, he's just less likely to get his hands on that kind of equipment. But then again, those Cultists in the story aren't doing a 1:1 but swarming the squad, right?

There is no problem of this picking order if the "showcased" cultists are what we see in this starter box. I thought thats a given here.

If unit A has nothing to achieve anything beyond scratching the paintjob of unit B, then people will question why unit A is part of the boxed set at all. So unit A got a fluff justification based on the possibilities of the tabletop game ( lucky punch ).
So tell me, which role has the other chaos scum got? If the chaos lord for example fails to kill more than 2 marines, gnashing of teeth ensues?
Because as the supposed alpha dog of that warband, shouldn't he be the deadliest?


I know the setup looks imbalanced, DA maybe around 750pts IMO. Chaos has to be expensive, to come close.
Thus chaotic "upgrades". Something that isn't WYSIWYG.
The cannonfodder ( cultists ), however may act as ablative wounds, but the punch is most likely the CSM/Hellbrute and should have been in the story too. Would Grots need to win, to be useful?

Ah, that comment was more directed towards "food chain thinking" in general, rather than just this specific instance. I too noticed that the boxed set seems a bit unbalanced pointswise.

As for the Chaos Space Marines not being in the story, I would actually expect them to make an appearance, too, if the book is supposed to accompany the new minis.
Wait ... is this excerpt not from a Black Library novel? Is it really just a short story as they occasionally appear in WD? BL was mentioned in the opening post, so I thought we'd be talking a novel here rather than GW fluff. Important difference.

If it's a "full" short story, I suppose they left out CSM because they had so much focus in the past, and they wanted to highlight Cultists for a change, showing that those can be "cool" too. This would obviously be a marketing decision, then, much like we're used to read more about Space Marine fights rather than Imperial Guard engagements, regardless of the latter actually happening more often.

"Ignoring established fluff" would be a space marine in flak armour worshipping the god Yahweh and shooting a flamer out of his arse.

What you are describing is "slightly different from established fluff". No need to exaggerate.

It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

 Testify wrote:


It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

I don't like Dark Eldar. At all. Not even a little bit. I'd never buy their models, proxy them, just not a fan.

That said, if there was a story in WD about their elite soldiers getting melee'd to death by Tau Etherals, I'd be rather annoyed. Fanboyism has nothing to do with it.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Mankind is still a stupid way to describe it. If the vast majority of people abide by it, fine, I could live with that. But saying that the vast majority of the human race enjoys comics and Norse mythology, no.

Plus, I'm aware of what a figure of speech is, but the way he is tossing about does deserve the definition. It is about a majority or a significant proportion of humans which could be considered a whole; it does not refer to a niche of humanity.

Sorry, that's your opinion. Fact of the matter is, using "Mankind" as an indicator of the species isn't wrong, even if you ignorantly deem it "stupid". I'm sorry you can't "Live with that" but I never denoted vast majority. I only referenced species. Which your definition denotes. I used it as a collective for human beings. Not all of them; not the majority of them, but merely a collective of members of the race. You can interpret it however you want, just know certain interpretations are narrow enough to be actually wrong. Also, taking anything at full definitive value and not accounting for a measure of hyperbole looks silly. You've been speaking the language for a while, I assume. Understand it, and it's mechanics, please.

English major trumps googling "mankind definition" for the sake of an argument.

Fine, fine, you can use it to say that mankind enjoys it, however are far better word to describe a collective of humans would be 'people'. I still feel that saying mankind is slightly askew.

"I had to stop it, or mankind would be doomed!"

"I had to stop it, or the soldiers would be doomed!"

See my perspective?

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Testify wrote:


It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

I don't like Dark Eldar. At all. Not even a little bit. I'd never buy their models, proxy them, just not a fan.

That said, if there was a story in WD about their elite soldiers getting melee'd to death by Tau Etherals, I'd be rather annoyed. Fanboyism has nothing to do with it.

You're exaggerating again.

What actually happened here? A Space Marine didn't hit every single time. Well okay. They're not supposed to. Even the most accurate of shots will miss 90% of the time. a 1/3 hit rate against a moving target isn't bad.

And then swamped in CC? We went through this in background. You said a marine weighs about 400lb? Assuming the average cultist is 150lb, 3 of them would easily be able to take down a space marine.

You'd have a point if a single cultist had knifed a marine to death. But he didn't. So yeah, I call fanboyism.

 Testify wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Testify wrote:


It's also difficult to take "I'm not a space marine fan boy" when, as far as I can tell, the entire crux of your complaint is that the space marines are too weak

I don't like Dark Eldar. At all. Not even a little bit. I'd never buy their models, proxy them, just not a fan.

That said, if there was a story in WD about their elite soldiers getting melee'd to death by Tau Etherals, I'd be rather annoyed. Fanboyism has nothing to do with it.

You're exaggerating again.

What actually happened here? A Space Marine didn't hit every single time. Well okay. They're not supposed to. Even the most accurate of shots will miss 90% of the time. a 1/3 hit rate against a moving target isn't bad.

And then swamped in CC? We went through this in background. You said a marine weighs about 400lb? Assuming the average cultist is 150lb, 3 of them would easily be able to take down a space marine.

You'd have a point if a single cultist had knifed a marine to death. But he didn't. So yeah, I call fanboyism.

Space marines that train for decades shouldn't be hitting 1/3 times.

Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

And a single cultist did knife a marine to death. Read the story. He "the third cultist is able to jam his serrated blade into the soft seal between [brother] Selaphiel's helmet and chestplate." Well, considering we have fabrics/materiels that can stop knives NOW integrated into armor, in 30,000 years (Power-armour-creation time-ish) I hardly see a makeshift cult-knife having an easy time stabbing through the gaps between his armor, assuming he had anything better than kevlar in there. No wait, Space Marines just wear wool shirts under their armor, don't they?

Again, I don't own a single space marine model, I've never played their army, I don't particularly like their over the top fluff. They just happen to be the protagonists to the story whose associated game I immerse myself in; I play guard, and the fact that guard achieve what SM can (albeit in greater numbers) is what makes guard impressive. If anything, I'm an IG fanboy.

So yeah, call fanboyism if you like, go ahead. Call horse. Call lamp. Call santa claus. I can call you an XBox if I like. Doesn't make it right. Your logic is ignorantly warped in that by supporting established SM fluff, I am thus fanboy. I assume if I said I think the new Tomb Kings in Space fluff for necrons is silly, I'd be an established OldCron fanboy too. And if I said dogs should get fed 3 times a day "LOLOL DOG FANBOI" would be called?

Yeah. I'm exaggerating. Because hyperbole is the clearest way to expose awful logic.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Space marines that train for decades shouldn't be hitting 1/3 times.

Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

And a single cultist did knife a marine to death. Read the story.

So yeah, call fanboyism if you like, go ahead. Call horse. Call lamp. Call santa claus. Doesn't make it right.

Why not? Why would you assume that a marine's training is capable of ignoring the (probably considerable) recoil on a plasma gun? It stinks of fanboyism to say that a marine will ALWAYS be deadly accurate, regardless of any environmental circumstances whatsoever, bordering on the insane. Do you know the light levels? Do you know the wind speed?

Force = mass*velocity. I'm a big guy and i've been taken down by people far smaller than me. It can happen to marines too.

And it's generally accepted that marines have a week point below their helmet, in the neck area. He got stabbed in it. Honestly, where is the problem with that?

 TheCaptain wrote:
Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

Codex: Dark Angels (emphasis mine) wrote:On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

Why not? Why would you assume that a marine's training is capable of ignoring the (probably considerable) recoil on a plasma gun? It stinks of fanboyism to say that a marine will ALWAYS be deadly accurate, regardless of any environmental circumstances whatsoever, bordering on the insane. Do you know the light levels? Do you know the wind speed?

Force = mass*velocity. I'm a big guy and i've been taken down by people far smaller than me. It can happen to marines too.

And it's generally accepted that marines have a week point below their helmet, in the neck area. He got stabbed in it. Honestly, where is the problem with that?

Light levels? Wind speed?

Well first of all, wind speed doesn't affect plasma, AFAIK, second, 1/3 accuracy is just poor. Sorry, no way you can argue that. Especially given the constant training they take.

You can say it was bad luck, sure, but trying to tell me it's because of light levels and wind speed is ridonkulus. The cultists were at a short enough range where they could charge the marines (within 12 inches, clearly )

For the neck thing, yeah. It's a weak point, but I don't expect a knife to do it. Like I said, we have, today, flexible joint materials that could stop that. I see the neck-weakness as a fair explanation for getting, oh, shot in the neck, fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

Codex: Dark Angels (emphasis mine) wrote:On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

Didn't know this; if this is still true, then wow. That's kindof silly, but I'll concede that. Not sure why they'd want to lower their inertia. Especially considering if they WERE lowered to the weight of a human being, with their enhanced muscles and enhanced strength from the suit, they'd be able to run at breakneck speeds and jump upwards of 3 yards in the air.

I smell discontinuity.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Why not? Why would you assume that a marine's training is capable of ignoring the (probably considerable) recoil on a plasma gun? It stinks of fanboyism to say that a marine will ALWAYS be deadly accurate, regardless of any environmental circumstances whatsoever, bordering on the insane. Do you know the light levels? Do you know the wind speed?

Force = mass*velocity. I'm a big guy and i've been taken down by people far smaller than me. It can happen to marines too.

And it's generally accepted that marines have a week point below their helmet, in the neck area. He got stabbed in it. Honestly, where is the problem with that?

Light levels? Wind speed?

Well first of all, wind speed doesn't affect plasma, AFAIK, second, 1/3 accuracy is just poor. Sorry, no way you can argue that. Especially given the constant training they take.

You can say it was bad luck, sure, but trying to tell me it's because of light levels and wind speed is ridonkulus. The cultists were at a short enough range where they could charge the marines (within 12 inches, clearly )

For the neck thing, yeah. It's a weak point, but I don't expect a knife to do it. Like I said, we have, today, flexible joint materials that could stop that. I see the neck-weakness as a fair explanation for getting, oh, shot in the neck, fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Also, reread my OP. Space Marine armour weighs 400lbs, then add on the weight of a muscle-bound 7.5' guy (probably around 300lbs, yeah... 3 cultists aren't taking that down.

Codex: Dark Angels (emphasis mine) wrote:On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour. These fibre bundles replicated the wearer's movements, and allow him to move about easily and freely. In addition, most suits of power armour include a gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being.

Didn't know this; if this is still true, then wow. That's kindof silly, but I'll concede that. Not sure why they'd want to lower their inertia. Especially considering if they WERE lowered to the weight of a human being, with their enhanced muscles and enhanced strength from the suit, they'd be able to run at breakneck speeds and jump upwards of 3 yards in the air.

I smell discontinuity.

Your forgetting 1 very important, key issue here... It's all made up fiction. It's not real.

When dealing with made up things, authors can take a certain "creative" appraoch, to help make the story interesting. Who is genuinely gonna buy a book that begins: "The 10 cultists charged the Space Marines. Before they could take more than a few steps, the accurate bolter fire from the marines killed them all. The end"

Really, this is a silly post. A story is a story, and these "improbabilities" help keep it interesting. Just take a step back and don't take it all so personally.

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
... are you sure an Abrams can be taken down by an RPG? I was under the impression that those tanks are nigh impossible to kill. Not that I have a military background or anything.

RPGS cannot disable an Abrams tank or remotely come close to destroying it. All they can do is destroy the tank tracks.
My cousin was an Artillery Regiment and they shot rpgs at them all the time and it just bounced off.
Their armor is what saved them not their skills.
Now humvees would get owned.

Now on Space Marines getting killed by auto guns the writer is just an idiot. Because that would be one hell of a lucky shot.

TheCaptain wrote:Didn't know this; if this is still true, then wow.

I posted that quote on the very first page of this thread, along with a few other remarks of the things that supposedly violate GW fluff.

TheCaptain wrote:Not sure why they'd want to lower their inertia. Especially considering if they WERE lowered to the weight of a human being, with their enhanced muscles and enhanced strength from the suit, they'd be able to run at breakneck speeds and jump upwards of 3 yards in the air.

*shrug* Perhaps that's the point? Though I would not necessarily reach for such high numbers. More importantly would be that a normal weight would enable them to operate in an environment designed for humans. How many threads did dakka have about Space Marines unable to use stairs?

TheCaptain wrote:I smell discontinuity.

Discontinuity would necessitate GW having offered different fluff in the past, which to my knowledge they did not. What you could do is claim physical improbability or something like that.

TheCaptain wrote:Well, considering we have fabrics/materiels that can stop knives NOW integrated into armor, in 30,000 years (Power-armour-creation time-ish) I hardly see a makeshift cult-knife having an easy time stabbing through the gaps between his armor, assuming he had anything better than kevlar in there. No wait, Space Marines just wear wool shirts under their armor, don't they?

What they wear under the armoured plates is a suit made of electrically motivated fibre bundles, and that's it. Anything more would just needlessly obstruct the interface. The waste recyclers, the drug dispensers, the half a dozen connectors on the backside of the armour all need to link up with the Marine's body.

That aside, the knife does not necessarily have to be makeshift. Monofilament melee weapons (which can cut even through power armour plating!) do exist, and it's not just the Eldar / Dark Eldar who have access to them. I'm willing to give the story the benefit of the doubt when it says that the seal between helmet and chestplate is soft enough for normal knives, though. After all, this isn't exactly the first instance of something like this happening. In Codex Planetstrike, there's a bit about Colonel Straken killing a CSM Lord by strangling him with a poisonous barbed root.

Asherian Command wrote:RPGS cannot disable an Abrams tank or remotely come close to destroying it. All they can do is destroy the tank tracks.

Even the Army itself already admitted the opposite of what you say.

Asherian Command wrote:My cousin was an Artillery Regiment and they shot rpgs at them all the time and it just bounced off.

Then your cousin was lucky that insurgents are mostly using RPG-7s and not RPG-29s. Huge difference.

Established fluff. That means something to us fans but to the writers or mat ward it means nothing. They write stuff to sell more models. Why should they be bothered by what a marine can and cant do. They still sell and will continue to do so

There's also something to be said for BL =/= Canon. The writers can twist the world of 40k to their advantage, they don't have to stick to Codex-like fluff.

My main thing with making the SM die so much is I think they will need to change the whole 1000 per chapter rule =P I always thought that was a bit low anyways if you start raising the casualty numbers for every small battle and suddenly the chapters ability to recruit and train new space marines won't be able to keep up.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
So if you've gotten your hands on the Dark Vengeance edition of White Dwarf, and read through it, you'll have noticed that excerpt-story by C.Z. Dunn.





Thoughts?
-TheCaptain

That's what your post reads like to me. Oh no!

P.S. Wind does effect plasma as plasma does indeed have mass. Credible in this account though? No, as you would need intense wind speeds to noticeably drift a plasma bolt during it's quick flight.

 TheCaptain wrote:
I'm sorry, you must have also missed pretty much all GW-released fluff on Space Marines. Doesn't matter how crappily the SM codex was written, that's their fluff now, according to GW. Ward is the arbiter, big guy

Take it easy son.

Perhaps, in the interests of furthering the conversation, you could outline the exact combat capabilities of members of the Astartes squad in question, compare those to the capabilities of the Heretic squad in question, compile a list of all relevant factors and an analysis of their effects on the skirmish as outlined in the passage in question, and then give us your summary?

Because at the moment all we've got from you is "Marines are the best hurr durr, no way would that happen".

Which is wrong.

The story is bad, but not because of the abilities of the Marines or the Heretics. It's just not very well written.

Have a nice day

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the fiction in the starter set is always rubbish. It's supposed to wet the appetite of new gamers, not be anything spectacular.

It also appears to be more "gamey" than proper fluff...maybe it's to help new gamers get into the game?

For example when the guys at GW are introducing someone to the game, if someone rolls a 1 on a to-hit roll, it won't just be "bad luck", it'll be "ohh and he's sent it into the other side of the battlefield!". They build a narrative for the new kids, so it's probably something GW are aware of and have consciously tried to implement in the starter set fiction.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I'm sorry, you must have also missed pretty much all GW-released fluff on Space Marines. Doesn't matter how crappily the SM codex was written, that's their fluff now, according to GW. Ward is the arbiter, big guy

Take it easy son.

Perhaps, in the interests of furthering the conversation, you could outline the exact combat capabilities of members of the Astartes squad in question, compare those to the capabilities of the Heretic squad in question, compile a list of all relevant factors and an analysis of their effects on the skirmish as outlined in the passage in question, and then give us your summary?

Because at the moment all we've got from you is "Marines are the best hurr durr, no way would that happen".

Which is wrong.

The story is bad, but not because of the abilities of the Marines or the Heretics. It's just not very well written.

Have a nice day

If you think it makes sense, there's no discussing anything with you. I think it doesn't because fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs; you think it doesn't because, well...seemingly because you simply desire to take an argumentative stance. You've presented no counterpoint, you simply mocked my OP and said it was "wrong". Not a very solid argument, chief.

 TheCaptain wrote:
You've presented no counterpoin

A counterpoint would require that you made a point to start with, champ.

So what is it? Because all I'm getting is "Marines should never miss and, should be unkillable!" with nothing to back that up.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
You've presented no counterpoin

A counterpoint would require that you made a point to start with, champ.

So what is it? Because all I'm getting is "Marines should never miss and, should be unkillable!" with nothing to back that up.

My OP, every post I've made since, and my post immediately preceding your most recent all provide points.

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

(there you go, big guy. Nice and easy)

One particular source-based example incase that's what you mean by my "not backing it up"
pg. 59 Codex: Space Marines: "For a Space Marine to be assigned to a tactical squad he must have proven himself beyond doubt in all aspects of war. [...] This progression must be earned in blood and can last for years or even decades." Elite soldiers trained for years/decades.

I hardly think I needed to point out this horribly common-knowledge, but you seemed to need it. I suggest you familiarize yourself further with 40k's fluff; some of it is quite nice.

Even if you deem I have no point, you've yet to provide one. All you've done is say my stance is either wrong, or doesn't exist.

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

The thing is cultists are endless variables, you've got your well trained cults (Vraksian Traitor Militia, Blood Pact, Sons of Sek, ), your crazed maniacs ( Shriven, Infardi, Children of the Merciful Lord)

Cultists can be well trained elites, untrained canon fodder, contain very fancy gear, have autopistols with cheap slugs or fancy special ammo, basic clubs or monofiliment blades that can potentially even cut through standard power armor, some will have rags and torn equipment, and some will have gear that would even surprise the Astartes for having it. Not to mention there's those that give themselves to daemons and gain power and strength that way...

To say a few cultists couldn't kill an Astartes is not understanding that cults are big, and that they can contain many members of varied quality, not all of them are team canon fodder. Not to mention some humans live and train for decades as well, considering some humans lifespans (nobles usually, but still) can live hundreds of years in a high quality of life.

 TheCaptain wrote:

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

(there you go, big guy. Nice and easy)

One particular source-based example incase that's what you mean by my "not backing it up"
pg. 59 Codex: Space Marines: "For a Space Marine to be assigned to a tactical squad he must have proven himself beyond doubt in all aspects of war. [...] This progression must be earned in blood and can last for years or even decades." Elite soldiers trained for years/decades.

And?

How does that indicate in any way that they'd never miss? Or that the accuracy in the story is unreasonable?

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

fluff describes SM as expert genetically refined, hyper-trained warriors, while cultists are angry maniacs

(there you go, big guy. Nice and easy)

One particular source-based example incase that's what you mean by my "not backing it up"
pg. 59 Codex: Space Marines: "For a Space Marine to be assigned to a tactical squad he must have proven himself beyond doubt in all aspects of war. [...] This progression must be earned in blood and can last for years or even decades." Elite soldiers trained for years/decades.

And?

How does that indicate in any way that they'd never miss? Or that the accuracy in the story is unreasonable?

Really? Like...really? Or are you just messing with me.

I'll bite.

The veteran sergeant takes three shots with his Plasma Pistol, misses with two, and hits with one.

Heavy Gunner takes aim, shoots at four cultists with his Plasma Cannon and "All Brother Heskia kills is a large patch of undergrowth."

Another bolter-boy takes aim, and fires at a group of four, kills one, and misses the other three, who charge him.

1. Sergeant with decades of training: 33% accuracy at charging-range.
2. Tactical Squad Heavy Gunner (Meaning he showed proficiency enough to carry on using his heavy weapon past Devastator Squad status) misses a very large target of four cultists. Didn't hit one. With a plasma blast. Even if you explain it away that they all jumped out of the way; how? How did all four dodge that?
3. Tactical Marine: 25% accuracy.

Sorry man, that's not befitting of an elite squad of supersoldiers. I'd be just as ticked if it was eldar or chaos marines, frankly. We have better marksmen than this today; and they're unenhanced humans.

I'm afraid if this doesn't sell you; you and I understand SM fluff differently, and I give up trying to convince you. Your adamancy that SM should shoot like Star Wars Stormtroopers is staggering, and exhausting. You've still held back on any counterpoint, other than having me re-explain myself over and over in greater detail; detail which should be obvious to the standard observer.