In light of the recent logan v abaddon thrrad, I was curious at just which Chapter master is the most skilled.
So the scenario is thus,

The Chapter masters attend an arena to duel,
Each master will fight each other once.
3pts for a win, 1pt for a tie

Which chapter master would emerge the victor with the most points.

As much as I like Black Templars, Dante would probably win. 1100+ years of experience, with Logan being closest (IIRC) at 700+ years is just such a huge advantage.

High Marshall Helbrecht because relgious zeal always helps

I belive Logan he is the fierst of all

Easy - Logan, then Dante

Damn. I forgot to add seth of the flesh tearers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And kantor.

If we are looking rules wise (I'm actually going to hate myself for saying this) it'd probably be Calgar, the guy basically re-rolls everything... though if it were fluff wise I'd say Dante... the guys a walking relic... nearest to that is Logan... it's close run all the way though...

Fluffwise I'd say Dante then Logan.

Ruleswise probably Calgar, as stated above.

Grimnar would use Dantes Death mask as a nice new drinking stein after he spilled his innards.

Logan,Calgar then Dante...

 Eetion wrote:
Damn. I forgot to add seth of the flesh tearers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And kantor.

While Seth and Kantor are awesome I think they would get destroyed pretty quick by the likes of Grimnar and Dante.

If it was no holds, as in they had no problem with killing their opponent outright, Calgar, beyond his equipment, most of hit body is metal (Swarmlord made him a quadrapeligic, so his arms and legs are more difficult to disable) and he has some pretty nice kills, including an Avatar of Khaine. Second is likely Dante, 1K years experience certainly gives one an edge.

Going purely off the fluff, it's going to be between Dante and Logan. I would lean towards Logan, myself. He's a beast in close combat, and whilst h may not have the experience of Dante (although it's not as if he's some rookie, himself!), sheer ferocity would help make up for that. His depiction in ADB's The Emperor's Gift shows just what an animal he is in combat. Plus, y'know, he had a pretty sweet beard

Logan. Space Wolves are Vikings in space and he's their leader. No other argument needed.

Plus Vampires are dumb.

Seriously though rules wise it would go:
Calgar, Logan, Dante,
Helbrect and Azrael rules wise don't stand a chance.

Fluff Wise:
Logan, Dante, Tu'Shan and Calgar tied.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Logan. Space Wolves are Vikings in space and he's their leader. No other argument needed.

Plus Vampires are dumb.

Seriously though rules wise it would go:
Calgar, Logan, Dante,
Helbrect and Azrael rules wise don't stand a chance.

Fluff Wise:
Logan, Dante, Tu'Shan and Calgar tied.

Dude,I always enjoy how you put things simple way :-)

Logan Grimnar.

Sorry but did you scare the hell out of an Inqusitior lord behead him and a GrandMaster of the Grey Knights?
Also do you have a chaos blade? NOPE
Calgar is the greatest tactician of the bunch.
But he would get owned by Grimnar.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Logan. Space Wolves are Vikings in space and he's their leader. No other argument needed.

Plus Vampires are dumb.

So are werewolves.

Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs.

Also, it's spelled "duel".

What is even the math hammer between Logan and Calgar, because with the new PE are they not very very close in strength both re-rolling thier powerfist to wounds,
Calgar has one more wound then logan.
Logan hits on a 3+ reolling ones.
calgar hits on 4+ reolling one miss
each have 5 attacks except logan who gets 1+ attack once per a game. So I say its very close
(too lazy to math hammer )

Vladimir, if you are badass enough to use two thunder hammers at once, you can do anything.

Alpharius

Castiel wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Logan. Space Wolves are Vikings in space and he's their leader. No other argument needed.

Plus Vampires are dumb.

So are werewolves.

How dare you.

BTNeophyte wrote:Alpharius

Not a chapter master, your argument is invalid. Also why even bother posting something so brazenly off topic?

Calgar.

Fast enough to fight an Avatar of Khaine in combat, strong enough to catch its sword with one hand, and proceeded to punch it in half.

Yeah, I'm going with the guy who punches demigods in half. To my recollection, none of the chapter masters listed, nor any other chapter master, has done similar.

Clearly, alpharius would infiltrate the ranks. In fact ,the only plausible way for this to occur would be if at least half the members were alpha legionnaires.


... all according to plan

 Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:
Clearly, alpharius would infiltrate the ranks. In fact ,the only plausible way for this to occur would be if at least half the members were alpha legionnaires.


... all according to plan

Sigh, again not a valid argument since Alpharius is a primarch not a chapter master. Plus he isn't even part of the poll.

Plus Alpharius is kind of a punk in combat and Calgar would punch him in half as well and still win.

Vladimir Pugh? When did he exist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 English Assassin wrote:
Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs.

Also, it's spelled "duel".

Not sure he would actually get anywhere near the rules-wise top 3 though. Though he is cool and choppy.

In all seriousness, I voted for Vlad, on the basis that the feast of blades would give him the edge in Codex astartes marine v marine combat, and thunder hammers would be very helpful in a no holds barred fight. If it was contact dueling, I would vote for Helbrecht. BT are famed for their skill with a blade, and rightly so.

Tu'Shan would melt everyone to slag with his Inferno Pistol

Dante as well.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Tu'Shan would melt everyone to slag with his Inferno Pistol

Dante as well.

Tu'Shan has an Inferno Pistol? Neat.
I figure an under-slung flamer like Vulkan has would be right up his alley too.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Calgar is the greatest tactician of the bunch.

Nope. He stepped down in favour of Dante in Armageddon 2, didn't he?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Calgar is the greatest tactician of the bunch.

Nope. He stepped down in favour of Dante in Armageddon 2, didn't he?

Not as far as I can tell. Ultramarine forces were present, but I don't see anything that says he was leading them.

djones wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Calgar is the greatest tactician of the bunch.

Nope. He stepped down in favour of Dante in Armageddon 2, didn't he?

Not as far as I can tell. Ultramarine forces were present, but I don't see anything that says he was leading them.

Because of his reputation, when it came to choosing a leader for the Armageddon intervention, the Masters of the other two Chapters taking part (the Ultramarines and the Salamanders) unanimously asked for him to be placed in command. Codex Angels of Death, p. 92

Marneus Calgar isn't specifically named, but since the second war for Armageddon took place in 941.M41, and that Calgar has been Chapter Master of the Ultramarines since at least 745.M41 (Hive Fleet Behemoth) and still is as of 997.M41 (The Zeist Campaign), the Master of the Ultramarines at the 2nd Armageddon can't have been be anybody else.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As much as I like Black Templars, Dante would probably win. 1100+ years of experience, with Logan being closest (IIRC) at 700+ years is just such a huge advantage.

Is it though? Did he get to 1,100 years and think to himself "Gee, I was such a chump 200 years ago. I'm glad I picked up all those new tricks in the last two centuries!"

I'm more inclined to think that the learning curve becomes a plateau after a century or two. Maybe three.

 Kaldor wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As much as I like Black Templars, Dante would probably win. 1100+ years of experience, with Logan being closest (IIRC) at 700+ years is just such a huge advantage.

Is it though? Did he get to 1,100 years and think to himself "Gee, I was such a chump 200 years ago. I'm glad I picked up all those new tricks in the last two centuries!"

I'm more inclined to think that the learning curve becomes a plateau after a century or two. Maybe three.

I agree, experience difference between 1100 year veteran and 700 year veteran would be minimal at the most. However, living for 1100 years as a "lead from the front" character means Dante must be one crafty SOB.

I cannot, of course, be objective. Where goes my army, so goeth my vote. Tu'shan for the win.

I'm a Black Templar fan, but objectively, I can't see Helbrecht nor any other Chapter Master beating the man who punches demigods in half.

What if said master was shot with something that can turn tanks to slag?

 Bobthehero wrote:
What if said master was shot with something that can turn tanks to slag?

He'd punch the beam away.

 Kaldor wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As much as I like Black Templars, Dante would probably win. 1100+ years of experience, with Logan being closest (IIRC) at 700+ years is just such a huge advantage.

Is it though? Did he get to 1,100 years and think to himself "Gee, I was such a chump 200 years ago. I'm glad I picked up all those new tricks in the last two centuries!"

I'm more inclined to think that the learning curve becomes a plateau after a century or two. Maybe three.

In which case Dante and Logan are equal to Helbrecht and all the other younger Chapter Masters in skill, making this very thread pointless.

djones520 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Calgar is the greatest tactician of the bunch.

Nope. He stepped down in favour of Dante in Armageddon 2, didn't he?

Not as far as I can tell. Ultramarine forces were present, but I don't see anything that says he was leading them.

Marneus Calgar and Tu'Shan both agreed that Lord Dante should be the overall commander of the forces during the Second War of Armageddon.

But like most others, it would be Wolves vs. Vampires. Who wins, we can't tell. Dante has the experience, Logan has the brute strength. I really couldn't say, how about we just leave it at, they would never fight

Dante or Logan.

I voted Dante, but can't really argue against someone who chose Logan.

Rulewise, Calgar wins.

+1 For Logan.

Also as a point wasn't Calgars victory over the Avatar more akin to getting slapped twice (so not fast enough to beat an Avatar as stated) and then managing to catch the blade and break it? Although Calgar is cool, I see his victory here more as a fluke and unlikely to happen again if not for plot armour

Ofc this is all an opinion

- Sid

Where is Draïgo...?

Apart from him, I voted for the Wolf. Cool > experience any fluff day. And I stop you right there : a space wolf is cool, a space vampire is not.

imo, Calgar. In game...probably Logan Grimnar.

You all forgot that the raven guard chapter master would win!
No one even knows his name, or what he looks like, or who he is! The rest of the chapter masters would be so confused he would have an easy time beating them all!

for real tho calgar is a chump he can't even keep m'kar the reborn dead...
I mean he's killed him like 3 times and no results! fail...

 Humbaba wrote:
for real tho calgar is a chump he can't even keep m'kar the reborn dead...
I mean he's killed him like 3 times and no results! fail...

That's because he's a Daemon Prince. You can't kill a daemon prince, only banish them back to the Warp. M'kar is the reborn because he keeps finding an new host to respawn into reality. The only fail I see is with your lore.

Judging by the tone of his post, I'm guessing he was being sarcastic.

Sappysid101 wrote:
+1 For Logan.

Also as a point wasn't Calgars victory over the Avatar more akin to getting slapped twice (so not fast enough to beat an Avatar as stated) and then managing to catch the blade and break it? Although Calgar is cool, I see his victory here more as a fluke and unlikely to happen again if not for plot armour

Ofc this is all an opinion

- Sid

He caught its blade.

He had trouble against it sure, but... It's a fething Avatar of Khaine, normally it takes twelve friggin' Carnifexes to kill it or a Primarch.

Let's be real here. In terms of the actual fluff, Calgar's feat of beating an Avatar of Khaine in a deal trumps that of any chapter master who isn't named Kaldor Draigo.

I put Calgar vs Avatar right near Kaldor Draigo vs Mortarion- Wardish stupidness

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Sappysid101 wrote:
+1 For Logan.

Also as a point wasn't Calgars victory over the Avatar more akin to getting slapped twice (so not fast enough to beat an Avatar as stated) and then managing to catch the blade and break it? Although Calgar is cool, I see his victory here more as a fluke and unlikely to happen again if not for plot armour

Ofc this is all an opinion

- Sid

He caught its blade.

He had trouble against it sure, but... It's a fething Avatar of Khaine, normally it takes twelve friggin' Carnifexes to kill it or a Primarch.

Let's be real here. In terms of the actual fluff, Calgar's feat of beating an Avatar of Khaine in a deal trumps that of any chapter master who isn't named Kaldor Draigo.

Except for maybe Dante beating Skabrand.

logan. Calgar got B**** slapped by the swarmlord.

Logan has no feats to imply the Swarmlord wouldn't also beat him. And the Swarmlord had Hive Guards and Tyranid Warriors with him when he fought Calgar.

That said, I did forget about Dante cutting Skarbrand in half.

So it's Calgar vs. Dante. Everyone else is irrelevant.

Dante has a jetpack and a melta pistol, I think he can just dance out of Calger powerfist reach and rely on his artificer armor to stop Calgar bolts.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Logan has no feats to imply the Swarmlord wouldn't also beat him. And the Swarmlord had Hive Guards and Tyranid Warriors with him when he fought Calgar.

That said, I did forget about Dante cutting Skarbrand in half.

So it's Calgar vs. Dante. Everyone else is irrelevant.

You are irrelevant, check the poll and the posts from people,UltraWard fan...

That mindless Ultramarine hate and Space Wolf love has clouded their judgments doesn't change the fact that both Calgar and Dante would beat Logan by feats.

And yes, as you can tell by my Necron username and my Thousand Sons avatar, I'm a Ward fanboy.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

I was going with helbrecht first but i'd figured zeal and skill won't do any good against the plot armor of the ultras so i'm going with Calgar

So both Dante and Calgar have some sort of incredible feat that proves their capability.

Put them on top and the rest beneath that so far.

Didn't Logan fight abaddon during the 13th crusade and not die? Thats one hell of a feat imo oh and the GK grandmaster, defeated Angrons army in the field. He may not of fluked an Avatar, cut up a Skarbrand or gotten beaten by a swarmlord but he's still pretty solid.

- Sid

Logan fighting Abaddon is news to me.

^ It's possible though, with the majority of the SW deployed to defend against the 13th black crusade forces. ('Tis stated in the rulebook as a dispositions chart)

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
If we are looking rules wise (I'm actually going to hate myself for saying this) it'd probably be Calgar, the guy basically re-rolls everything... though if it were fluff wise I'd say Dante... the guys a walking relic... nearest to that is Logan... it's close run all the way though...

qft
Dual Power Fists, AP2 bolters, Titanic Might, Terminator Armor. On the tabletop there isn't anything I won't charge him at. Although fluffwise he's mostly cyborg and I'd agree with Dante. iirc Calgar differed to him when they fought together at Armageddon.

I'd like to say Azrael but he'd be too busy trying to find The Fallen rather then dueling.

 MatrixLurtz wrote:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
If we are looking rules wise (I'm actually going to hate myself for saying this) it'd probably be Calgar, the guy basically re-rolls everything... though if it were fluff wise I'd say Dante... the guys a walking relic... nearest to that is Logan... it's close run all the way though...

qft
Dual Power Fists, AP2 bolters, Titanic Might, Terminator Armor. On the tabletop there isn't anything I won't charge him at. Although fluffwise he's mostly cyborg and I'd agree with Dante. iirc Calgar differed to him when they fought together at Armageddon.

So being respectful and diplomatic, while realizing that two commanders on the battlefield is a really bad idea shows weakness? The fact that MC did it and Dante didnt says more for MC than against.

Game wise, I've had Calgar challenge and kill an Avatar x2. Neither was pretty but math hammer holds it up if Calgar charges (which he did). One time AP 2 bolter wounds got the Avatar, who did 3 wounds both times and then took 3/4 from PFs. One fight I had 10 HG watching so I got some rerolls and +1 attack, but that's part of being an IC.

 Lobukia wrote:

 MatrixLurtz wrote:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
If we are looking rules wise (I'm actually going to hate myself for saying this) it'd probably be Calgar, the guy basically re-rolls everything... though if it were fluff wise I'd say Dante... the guys a walking relic... nearest to that is Logan... it's close run all the way though...

qft
Dual Power Fists, AP2 bolters, Titanic Might, Terminator Armor. On the tabletop there isn't anything I won't charge him at. Although fluffwise he's mostly cyborg and I'd agree with Dante. iirc Calgar differed to him when they fought together at Armageddon.

So being respectful and diplomatic, while realizing that two commanders on the battlefield is a really bad idea shows weakness? The fact that MC did it and Dante didnt says more for MC than against.

It's not necessarily a sign of Calgar's weakness but more one of Dante 's skill and experience.

The big C isn't weak because he differed to someone he thought would do a better job.

As much as I love my Black templars, I voted for Calgar...the Wargear that he uses is incredible...and it's not like he doesn't have his fair share of heroic 1v1 fights that he has won

Dante.

He would take a hit, go mental and rip you limb from limb

Logan easily

when asking any question on toughness or who would win in a fight always bet on a wolf

Tyberos all the way.

DoW

BrotherVord wrote:
As much as I love my Black templars, I voted for Calgar...the Wargear that he uses is incredible...and it's not like he doesn't have his fair share of heroic 1v1 fights that he has won

The Black Templars are my favorite chapter as well, but there is simply no denying Calgar's feats (Though Dante has comparable feats).

One thing I know though: Either would make Logan their own personal nancy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BrotherVord wrote:
As much as I love my Black templars, I voted for Calgar...the Wargear that he uses is incredible...and it's not like he doesn't have his fair share of heroic 1v1 fights that he has won

The Black Templars are my favorite chapter as well, but there is simply no denying Calgar's feats (Though Dante has comparable feats).

One thing I know though: Either would make Logan their own personal nancy.

There's a reason Logan has been chapter master of the Wolves for 500 years and was the supreme commander of the Space Marine during the 13th Black Crusade. And it's not because he's a pushover.
I'd back Grimnar against any other chapter masters. I'm not saying he'd win easily though, it'd be close but IMO he'd win 7-8 times out of 10...

 purplefood wrote:
There's a reason Logan has been chapter master of the Wolves for 500 years and was the supreme commander of the Space Marine during the 13th Black Crusade. And it's not because he's a pushover.

You don't have to be a pushover to lose to Calgar or Dante in a duel.

I may have exagerrated the ease with which they would best him, but I am hardly the only one, as a Logan supporter but a few posts above mine demonstrates.

Edit: Why would you back Logan?

He has less experience than Dante does, and Dante leads a Legion even more close combat oriented than Logan's. And in terms of feats within duels, Calgar and Dante have him beaten.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
There's a reason Logan has been chapter master of the Wolves for 500 years and was the supreme commander of the Space Marine during the 13th Black Crusade. And it's not because he's a pushover.

You don't have to be a pushover to lose to Calgar or Dante in a duel.

I may have exagerrated the ease with which they would best him, but I am hardly the only one, as a Logan supporter but a few posts above mine demonstrates.

Edit: Why would you back Logan?

He has less experience than Dante does, and Dante leads a Legion even more close combat oriented than Logan's. And in terms of feats within duels, Calgar and Dante have him beaten.

Why would i back him?
He leads one of the most aggressive chapters in one of the most dangerous regions of space and he doesn't do it sat down.
People say how Dante led the counter-attack during the second war for Armageddon but Logan led the fight during the First war against what could only accurately be described as the legions of hell.
He killed a GK grand master in a single blow before he even managed to draw his weapon. That's pretty damn quick,i don't care who you have punched to death or what you used, that's quick.

 purplefood wrote:
Why would i back him?
He leads one of the most aggressive chapters in one of the most dangerous regions of space and he doesn't do it sat down.
People say how Dante led the counter-attack during the second war for Armageddon but Logan led the fight during the First war against what could only accurately be described as the legions of hell.
He killed a GK grand master in a single blow before he even managed to draw his weapon. That's pretty damn quick,i don't care who you have punched to death or what you used, that's quick.

Ah, but Logan mostly fought lesser daemons and the like from what I understand (Did the Emperor's Gift show different?), the Grey Knights handled all the big bad Daemons.

And it is hardly like Calgar has not fought his share of big battles on the front line. He held off an invading Ork force by himself at a gate for IIRC a full night.

It is fairly impressive, but let's be honest here: It was a cheap shot. Know what else is quick? Being able to evade and parry the blows of an Avatar of Khaine, as well as cutting an abnormally powerful Bloodthirster in half seemingly without being harmed once.

Really, based on Dante's besting of Skarbrand, I might actually be inclined to give him the edge against Calgar.

He didn't evade the blows of an Avatar of Khaine though...
He punched it in the head while it was distracted, got a few more hits in before it almost cut him in two and would have done had it not been for the quality of his armour.

There's not a huge amount written about Logan in terms of personal fighting but considering he's a Space Wolf it's not likely he's been leading from the rear...

Funny how Dante got 30 votes in one hour - but ok,someone is hardcore fan...

The space wolves were the Emperors executioners, they were designed to fight other astartes from their inception. You just can't claim the same about the chapters of the other chapter masters. I would take the chapter master of the chapter who was designed to execute other marines over any other chapter master any day and twice on Sunday.

 purplefood wrote:
He didn't evade the blows of an Avatar of Khaine though...
He punched it in the head while it was distracted, got a few more hits in before it almost cut him in two and would have done had it not been for the quality of his armour.

There's not a huge amount written about Logan in terms of personal fighting but considering he's a Space Wolf it's not likely he's been leading from the rear...

Wrong-o.

The first strike by the Avatar missed "by a hair's breadth", the next two were indeed tanked by his armour, before he caught its sword in his hand.

And... Really, that just helps Calgar's case, if his armour can protect him that well from an Avatar of Khaine, it can certainly do so against Logan.

Logan doesn't have the same calibur of showings as Calgar or Dante I'm afraid.

 purplefood wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BrotherVord wrote:
As much as I love my Black templars, I voted for Calgar...the Wargear that he uses is incredible...and it's not like he doesn't have his fair share of heroic 1v1 fights that he has won

The Black Templars are my favorite chapter as well, but there is simply no denying Calgar's feats (Though Dante has comparable feats).

One thing I know though: Either would make Logan their own personal nancy.

There's a reason Logan has been chapter master of the Wolves for 500 years and was the supreme commander of the Space Marine during the 13th Black Crusade. And it's not because he's a pushover.
I'd back Grimnar against any other chapter masters. I'm not saying he'd win easily though, it'd be close but IMO he'd win 7-8 times out of 10...

Dantes got twice that expreince as a Chapter Master,

And just because I have al three models and the rules, I'm going to find out

Grimnar is believed by some observers to be one of the most powerful warriors in the Imperium, greater even than other Space Marine Chapter Masters such as Lord Commander Dante of the Blood Angels, Supreme Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels, and even Lord Marneus Calgar of the feared Ultramarines.

It's even stated in wikia that Logan is a notch better then them...Void oposum,go suck a thousand bricks....

 DarthMarko wrote:
Grimnar is believed by some observers to be one of the most powerful warriors in the Imperium, greater even than other Space Marine Chapter Masters such as Lord Commander Dante of the Blood Angels, Supreme Grand Master Azrael of the Dark Angels, and even Lord Marneus Calgar of the feared Ultramarines.

It's even stated in wikia that Logan is a notch better then them...Void oposum,go suck a thousand bricks....

Wikia is fan written, I guarantee you that the sentence you quoted does not have a citation.

Dante hands down

 Seb wrote:
Where is Draïgo...?

He's not in the poll because he'd win.

Logan vs Dante vs Calgar is more even. None of them carved a name on a Daemon Primarch's heart.

Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Isn't Dante one-shotting Skarband just a rumor? Doesn't Dante roll his eyes or something when people mention that?

IIRC, that's how it's written in the BA codex.

Regardless, I still think Dante wins.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Tell that to that C'tan-BT-TS-Ward fan @Void Dragon, he the most jealous guy on this forum....

Garvy wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Tell that to that C'tan-BT-TS-Ward fan @Void Dragon, he the most jealous guy on this forum....

Thank you for adding to the conversation, your input is greatly appreciated.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Yeah, because the Space Wolf fluff in the 5th edition is so well-written and eloquwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Dante cutting Skarbrand in half wasn't Ward-penned as far as I know, it's not in the BA codex. It was last I checked on GW's website.

Also, Garvy only demonstrate his own bias by getting buttmad over a "Which chapter master beats up which" thread.

DarthMarko, I wouldn't trust wikia as a reliable source. Like, at all.

Tell me though, if we're just going to throw out Calgar and Dante's feats on the basis of "I don't like it, it didn't happen," how can discussion take place?

Do I, then, get to disregard everything Logan has done to show him being a great warrior, because I don't like some of what he's done? No, I don't, because that would be stupid, and it is stupid to do the same for Dante and Calgar.

Ward-penned or not, their feats speak for themselves.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Yeah, because the Space Wolf fluff in the 5th edition is so well-written and eloquwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf.

Yeah,SW codex is also a joke - but c'mon you have to admit that what Ward did to a BA is even worse (I'm a BA fan...)

Jubal Khan. He'll run over the rest of them

 Red Viper wrote:
Isn't Dante one-shotting Skarband just a rumor? Doesn't Dante roll his eyes or something when people mention that?

IIRC, that's how it's written in the BA codex.

Regardless, I still think Dante wins.

The one-shot is how everyone within the setting knows the story, but the codex makes a point of saying that only Dante knows for sure. It's more pointing out that he is so old, that nobody else who was there is still alive.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Both Calgar and Dante's most recent fluff was written by Matt Ward. That right there makes me tone down their accomplishments just a bit to fit in line with pretty much anyone else who has ever written anything 40K related.

Dante cutting Skarbrand in half wasn't Ward-penned as far as I know, it's not in the BA codex. It was last I checked on GW's website.

Also, Garvy only demonstrate his own bias by getting buttmad over a "Which chapter master beats up which" thread.

DarthMarko, I wouldn't trust wikia as a reliable source. Like, at all.

Tell me though, if we're just going to throw out Calgar and Dante's feats on the basis of "I don't like it, it didn't happen," how can discussion take place?

Do I, then, get to disregard everything Logan has done to show him being a great warrior, because I don't like some of what he's done? No, I don't, because that would be stupid, and it is stupid to do the same for Dante and Calgar.

Ward-penned or not, their feats speak for themselves.

There is a slight difference exclaiming how one guys is a powerful and viscous fighter and is greatly respected/feared by his enemies and/or allies and having a guy rampaging around killing things that they had no business even being able to kill in the first place.

One of the above is wards way, the other is everyone elses. What happens if in the next Nid codex someone pens that in the past 'ol One Eye cut two prime and fearless SM chapter masters (of a SM faction to be named later) in half with a single swipe of his claw. Does this fluff suddenly become cannon and trump everything before it? Does 'ol one eye suddenly become the baddest Nid in the galaxy ever as it alone accomplished a feat that nothing has ever done before or will ever do again?

That is what is the problem with GW fluff. They have to keep writing new stuff, but refusing to move the time line, so old stuff gets reconned and depending on who is the current writer that recon might just be a little hard to swallow if your looking at the grand history of 40K. I'm more than willing to give Dante and Calgar their due. Proud Chapter Masters who through cunning, strength, and unwavering will have countless personal victories in their tireless defense of the Imperium. But single OTT events like that seem more appropriate as acts of pure propaganda than what really happened.

But I will be the first to admit, I view 40K through rose colored glasses. I will happily and completely just ignore fluff that is written that doesn't fit into my perception of what 40K is and how it functions. Because I want to make my games my own. I love the idea that SW are vikings in space and as such only care about those bits of fluff that project them in that light or other side bits that I personally think is cool. All the other stuff I happily dismiss as enemy propoganda. You have to make the game your own something your willing to enjoy, otherwise what the hell is the point of even paying attention to the fluff and not just use the numbers on the stat sheets.

 Jayden63 wrote:

But I will be the first to admit, I view 40K through rose colored glasses. I will happily and completely just ignore fluff that is written that doesn't fit into my perception of what 40K is and how it functions. Because I want to make my games my own. I love the idea that SW are vikings in space and as such only care about those bits of fluff that project them in that light or other side bits that I personally think is cool. All the other stuff I happily dismiss as enemy propoganda. You have to make the game your own something your willing to enjoy, otherwise what the hell is the point of even paying attention to the fluff and not just use the numbers on the stat sheets.

Risking sounding a bit rude here, that's a completely valid way to look at the fluff, but it has nothing to do in a thread discussing the fluff in it's entirety.

So I made Calgar, Logan, Dante, Seth and Kandor go up against each other:

Calgar: 13 wins 2 draws
Logan: 11 wins 2 draws
Dante: 11 wins 5 draws
Kantor: 4 wins 4 draws
Seth: 3 wins

Every model dueled each other, 5 times each

SO LOGAN AND DANTE ARE ABOUT EVEN,
but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this: Dante, Dante, Draw, Logan, Dante

As far as TT goes, Death Mask of Sanguinius swings the Dante/Logan matchup in Dante's favor.

Yes by a long shot, it makes Logan have 2 wounds

The High Marshal of course, no bias at all.

 redkommando wrote:
So I made Calgar, Logan, Dante, Seth and Kandor go up against each other:

Calgar: 13 wins 2 draws
Logan: 11 wins 2 draws
Dante: 11 wins 5 draws
Kantor: 4 wins 4 draws
Seth: 3 wins

Every model dueled each other, 5 times each

SO LOGAN AND DANTE ARE ABOUT EVEN,
but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this: Dante, Dante, Draw, Logan, Dante

but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this Logan,Logan,Logan,Draw,Logan,Dante.....
Guys, little text on top of our Avatar makes us little impartial :-) But OK I love Dante....

I'm fairly sure Logan and Dante would be about even in all honesty

It is totally gonna come down to first hit. Tushy has some nice master-crafted salamander gear, but no termie plate. Calgar has rediculous power and wargear, but his speed would suffer (not much but enough that an opening may be found). Azrael just doesn't have the chops in a heavyweight ccw fight, but he does have the plasma/bolter. Vlad has some serious crush with the t hammers, but you gotta get em up to speed. Logan has the age and great weapons, but a hot head. Dante has manueverability, a sweet axe, and a great pistol arm, but he's not gonna survive a heavy shot to the gut. Helbrecht has righteous zeal and fervor, but just like Logan he could go off all Allahu Ahkbar, and then he's toast.

I'd say it depends on if they're wearing a helmet.

*ahem* Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht, Logan, *ahem*

The helmetless guys could lose easily to Vulkan's flamer.

 Sirmauz wrote:
It is totally gonna come down to first hit. Tushy has some nice master-crafted salamander gear, but no termie plate. Calgar has rediculous power and wargear, but his speed would suffer (not much but enough that an opening may be found). Azrael just doesn't have the chops in a heavyweight ccw fight, but he does have the plasma/bolter. Vlad has some serious crush with the t hammers, but you gotta get em up to speed. Logan has the age and great weapons, but a hot head. Dante has manueverability, a sweet axe, and a great pistol arm, but he's not gonna survive a heavy shot to the gut. Helbrecht has righteous zeal and fervor, but just like Logan he could go off all Allahu Ahkbar, and then he's toast.

Tu'Shan would be in terminator armor. In all the novels Chapter Master Tu'Shan is described as being in TDA. Vulkan HeStan on the other hand has Artificer armor.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 redkommando wrote:
So I made Calgar, Logan, Dante, Seth and Kandor go up against each other:

Calgar: 13 wins 2 draws
Logan: 11 wins 2 draws
Dante: 11 wins 5 draws
Kantor: 4 wins 4 draws
Seth: 3 wins

Every model dueled each other, 5 times each

SO LOGAN AND DANTE ARE ABOUT EVEN,
but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this: Dante, Dante, Draw, Logan, Dante

but in reality the Logan/Dante fights went like this Logan,Logan,Logan,Draw,Logan,Dante.....
Guys, little text on top of our Avatar makes us little impartial :-) But OK I love Dante....

I'm pretty sure you didn't let them fight, and completely not at his.

 Decio wrote:
I'd say it depends on if they're wearing a helmet.

*ahem* Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht, Logan, *ahem*

The helmetless guys could lose easily to Vulkan's flamer.

Helbrecht's actually wearing his Iron Halo though.

On the table top, Logan vs Dante -

With no gear, Dante has +1 wound and +1 initiative, but Logan has +2 attacks (for 1 round thanks to high king) and rerolls of 1s on the to hit and to wound (thanks to preferred enemy).

The short answer is that Dante wins at the top of round 3 as he puts 1 wound on Logan per round, and Logan has only put 2.75 wounds on Dante in two rounds.

With Gear the story changes.

Dante now has 5 attacks and now hit on 3+ instead of 4+ and he gets one master crafted reroll. Lets be generous and call it 4 hits. Still needs 4s to wound, so thats two wounds, Logan saves 1, still having one wound left thanks to Dantes mask.)

Now Logan swings with his weapon in P-fist mode (why not, he is going last anyway). 5 attacks, also hits on 3+ (thanks to wolf tooth necklace) with rerolls on 1s (preferred enemy). We will do the same as Dante and give him 4 hits. He then wounds 4 times (2+ to wound with rerolls of 1s). Dante saves 2 times however also suffers instant death.

And thats how it rolls. Makes sense that Logan is 50 more points than Dante.

On the table top in full gear, I think the only Chapter Master that can take Logan is Lysander with his 5 wounds, EW, and 3++ save. However, fluff wise is a totally different story as each Chapter Master didn't get to where they are by accident. These guys earned their positions and in a universe where there is only war, you have to be the best of the best to get your name even mentioned in the annals of history.

Well Azrael would just wait till Logan killed off everyone then sucker punch him with a power-fist. Just like the Lion and Russ. The ballistic skill 5 master crafted combi plasma helps as well. Heck since most of these guys would nuke him in melee with the current rules there would be no point trying to get into melee range stay 18 out and shoot every turn.

I noticed that everyone's 'favorite' mary sue, Kaldor Draigo is not on the list. WELL, he is stuck in the warp....

Anyways, I have to give it to Dante. He may be 1100+ years old, but it works only to his advantage, because if you've seen the pictures of him with his mask off, he's still young (as far as we can see) in physical terms. Calgar's a good tactician, but because he's probably taking most of his fighting technique from the Codex Astartes, Dante knows not only what to expect from him, but can do it faster and more proficiently.

Against Logan, it is a tough call. Logan's Space Wolf training means he likely has developed his fighting strategy. This makes him not only unpredictable, but means he can continuously hone his strategy. Logan has also most likely fought foes who learned from the Codex before, and thus knows what to expect. However, honing his own technique can also have weaknesses that a foe has yet to take advantage of, and he fights in Terminator armor, which costs him some maneuverability compared to Dante's Artificer armor.

What Dante gets in the fight is the before said maneuverability, an Iron Halo to give him extra survivability and a regime of training from the Codex. Dante however has had time to incorporate his own fighting strategies, that would give him a significant boost to his abilities. And then he has an infernus pistol, which could easily be used in cc, and very useful because of it's strenght and penetrating power.

It's a duel between many skilled combatants. My vote went to Dante because although he has potential weaknesses, he has potential strengths that can tapped into and augment his fighting ability beyond what is already seen

Draigo isn't on the list because he'd clean house. No one on this list could begin to oppose him.

Also, Calgar isn't an amateur who is reliant on the Codex Astartes to tell him when to punch, when to block, or when to take a post-fight dump.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Draigo isn't on the list because he'd clean house. No one on this list could begin to oppose him.

Also, Calgar isn't an amateur who is reliant on the Codex Astartes to tell him when to punch, when to block, or when to take a post-fight dump.

A very good point. I'm not meaning to suggest Calgar's entire fighting strategy is based on the Codex, however a good portion of it is based on the Codex. A base that both Chapter Masters have built upon. Dante has just more time to improve upon it. I don't think it's unfair to give Dante that advantage