do you guys feel that the choppa boyz + trukk combo has any role in 6th ed? Yea, with overwatch, charging isn't nearly as good. But do you guys still use this combo anymore?

Eh?

They're still great. You just need to be careful about charging anything that has flamers in it. I still use my three-trukk combo to great effect.

Overwatch hurts, yeah, but it doesn't mean they are suddenly of no use. They are great for assaulting vehicles, or weaker units - particularly longer range units that wont take the assault well.

I don't personally play Orks but recently a friend of mine beat a Space Wolf army and he used a couple of the classic 'Trukks filled with angry guys' units to good effect. I don't think a single unit of Choppas + Trukk can do much on its own, other than munching on small support units, but when supporting an army filled with more pressing targets and hardier units I think they can still be playable, just not (usually) optimal.

Honestly, a single Trukk rarely worked in 5th edition as it is.

I disagree that Trukks are weaker - in my experience its been a give-and-take situation. They are tougher in some aspects, weaker in others. Non ap1/ap2 pens need a 5+ to kill, where they needed a 4+ to kill in 5th. AP 2 is the same as 5th, ap1 would have killed your trukk in 5th anyway. ]

Glances in 5th needed 5+ to kill - so one in three glances would peg it. Now you HAVE to get three glances before it dies.

This combo still works great, but you always need more than one trukk and double charging with two squads is still a really good idea.

Blindly charging a unit that can overwatch right out of your trukk is bad... BUT... charging a unit with a single deffkopta, THEN charging with the boys after the cheap deff kopta (35pts) draws out the overwatch is good...

OR... Multicharging with one trukk full o Boys into Multiple units to draw out ALL of their overwatches... then charging other trukks into individual units is also good...

Basically you just have to learn to play around overwatch and they are great : )

I never thought about multicharging to draw multiple Overwatches, that's a great tactic right there!

or you can do what I do, I ask my opponent before the game if it's alright if I proxy my sluggas as shootas. Most people don't see any problem as all this applies to my 90-120 boyz.

If anything, Trukks got a slight boost in that their explosion is still Str3 for the passangers. All other explosions are Str4(poor Dark Eldar )

As a Guard player, I have made a lot of Overwatch attacks. Only once did it really accomplish anything, and more often that not there were no wounds caused. So I wouldn't change tactics because of it.

When I play my Guard, I shoot the Trukks first as they are easy targets and I prefer the boyz on the ground. When I play my Wolves, I don't worry about boyz, let them come.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If anything, Trukks got a slight boost in that their explosion is still Str3 for the passangers. All other explosions are Str4(poor Dark Eldar )

I am sure that open topped vehicles still explode at str 3 for passengers. I don't have my book on hand but the rule is in the open topped vehicles section.

 Warboss Brokentoof wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If anything, Trukks got a slight boost in that their explosion is still Str3 for the passangers. All other explosions are Str4(poor Dark Eldar )

I am sure that open topped vehicles still explode at str 3 for passengers. I don't have my book on hand but the rule is in the open topped vehicles section.

all vehicle explosions that I know of are now STR 4 (including open topped battlewagons....) EXCEPT for the Trukk due to ramshackle chart... Trukks explode at S3 still! so likely to take 4 wounds on 12 guys, vs 10 wounds on 20 guys if a wagon explodes (paper saves not taken into account)

Hmmmm

So if I'm running multiple trucks of choppa/sluggas with the goal of multi-assaulting, how should I configure my boys? Nob? Klaw? Extra weapons? What if I run some of my trucks with choppas and some of my trucks with shootas?

ArmageddonBorn wrote:
So if I'm running multiple trucks of choppa/sluggas with the goal of multi-assaulting, how should I configure my boys? Nob? Klaw? Extra weapons? What if I run some of my trucks with choppas and some of my trucks with shootas?

Only if you want to get your shootas somewhere quick, then disgorge them.

Trukks have an average 2 turn life expectancy. By turn three, they will likely be dead or immobilized. As such, I'd recommend against using them as mobile firing platforms.

The only changes I made to my slugga boyz, was giving my Nobs 'Eavy Armour. Past that, it's the usual 11 sluggas + Nob with PK, BP, and EA.

Trukks with RR are cheap and get you into combat as quick as possible. Ramming things still works a treat, the boyz are still good but trukk armies were never amazing unless used very skillfully.

Pretty much what Kharrak said. Heavy Weapons aren't really useful for Trukk Boyz. Also I'll add that previously I viewed Red Paint Job as pretty optional on Trukks considering how fast they move.

Now, since you're limited to only moving 6" before disembarking, combined with random charge length, I think that extra inch is immensely more valuable and Red Paint Job is a "Must Have" in most cases for Trukks. Being able to move 7" and disembark and assault is very useful.

Red Paint is actually rather interesting now.

Though it no longer grants the "oh you need to hit me on 6's because I moved farther than 6"), it does help with the assaults, as you say.

But, points are hard to come by, and the usual adage of keeping trukks as cheap as possible precisely due to their short life expectancy is still very important. Reinforced Rams are still priority, I'd say. If you have 15 - 25pts to spare, toss in the Red Paint.

Murrdox wrote:
Pretty much what Kharrak said. Heavy Weapons aren't really useful for Trukk Boyz.

sorry for the newb question, I haven't played this game since 3rd edition.... What is the reason for not taking rokkit launchas or big shootas?

I took choppa boys out of my list when 4th ed codex dropped. Shoota boys all the way.

Three trukks of them can help concentrate fire where you need it. Take a big shoota in the mob and a big shoota on the trukk and your shots really start to add up.

What's this illusion of trukks being stronger? Yes, an autocannon is now less likely to kill a trukk with a single shot, but those riflemen dreads that everybody brought (and are now bringing more of, thanks to fliers), will over all kill them faster than ever before.

But that's not the worst of it. Now you can only move 6" and disembark. In 5th ed you drove forward 13", piled out 2", waaaaughed for up to 6", and then charged for 6" more. That 27" threat range just got cut in half. And that's before you consider all of the other problems for horde units and crippling problems for assault units.

Really, there appears just one thing to do for former assault horde commanders. In the case of orks, I agree...

Serder wrote:or you can do what I do, I ask my opponent before the game if it's alright if I proxy my sluggas as shootas. Most people don't see any problem as all this applies to my 90-120 boyz.

I never took the Battle Wagon plunge and still use all Trukks with my speed freaks. I have since the Armageddon campaign days. I find the big shoota helpful with my trukkers. For 5 pts its worth the annoyance every turn.

"Ok these guys can't do anything but the big shooter can shoot from 36" away... <Dakka><Dakka><Dakka> Hey I killed a guy!"

"Grumble Grumble...I gotta kill those guys."

Points well spent

Now that Orks have units like Big Mek shokk attack gun, Tankbustas, Lootas, Flash Gits. I don't bother with rokkits on my Trukkers Units. I used to load out all rokkits just to try and hit things. With those ranged units, they throw so much firepower, they usually hit something.

My twin linked trakks and buggies even collect dust now. The deff koptas are much better.

Phydox wrote:

Points well spent

Trukks are pretty handy. You need them in numbers.

The main advice is assault in numbers, if you assault with two mobs, then only one gets overwatched and only one nob can be challenged.
Having squads of 12 is not very forgiving, so if you assault with too many or too few or position a trukk badly then expect to lose precious scoring units.

Rocket buggies are still awesome for accompanying them. There is a limited on how much av10 any enemy can remove, you'll find most trukks will die when they are next door to the enemy so the boyz can assault straight in.

The issue is they run out of steam after 1000 points. Then by 1500 points you have 72 scoring models, which is not nearly enough truth be told. Now allies and a hardy gunline will probably push their viable points total but you can no longer expect them to overwhelm the enemy like good orks like to.

 frgsinwntr wrote:
Blindly charging a unit that can overwatch right out of your trukk is bad... BUT... charging a unit with a single deffkopta, THEN charging with the boys after the cheap deff kopta (35pts) draws out the overwatch is good...

OR... Multicharging with one trukk full o Boys into Multiple units to draw out ALL of their overwatches... then charging other trukks into individual units is also good...

Basically you just have to learn to play around overwatch and they are great : )

This is pretty much it. IF not, ALWAYS use 2 trukks to do the same job a 20x boyz mob does but faster and with an extra nob. Assault the same unit with 2 trukk mobz. But just like in 5th, you need more then just 1 or 2 trukks, your gunna need a bunch

So, you don't HAVE to overwatch the first thing that comes by. You can always hold off to overwatch something else in the charge phase.

I mean, if I saw a mob of sluggas and a deff kopta, and the deff kopta charged, I would certainly risk not getting to overwatch against the kopta at all if it meant I had a chance to overwatch the sluggas.

 Ailaros wrote:
But that's not the worst of it. Now you can only move 6" and disembark. In 5th ed you drove forward 13", piled out 2", waaaaughed for up to 6", and then charged for 6" more. That 27" threat range just got cut in half. And that's before you consider all of the other problems for horde units and crippling problems for assault units.

Wait, what? Cut in half? Your average transport assault is only 2" shorter than it was in 5th.

5th ed = 12" move + 3" disembark shunt + 6" assault = 21" threat range / assault distance.
6th ed = 6" move + 6" disembark + average 7" assault = 19" average assault distance, 24" total threat range.

If you Waaagh...
5th ed = 12" move + 3" disembark shunt + 3.5" run + 6" assault = 24" - 25" average assault distance, 27" threat range.
6th ed = 6" move + 6" disembark + average 10.5" assault = 22" - 23" average assault distance, 24" threat range.

While your non-waaagh transport assault balances out, I agree that your waaagh transport assaults took a hit - but it's certainly not "cut in half" by any measure.

You missed the run in your first calculate.

And an "average 7 inch charge" doesn't mean much when you roll poorly on the charge roll. The cost of failure for making it into assault with a bunch of boyz is catastrophic. Say hello to two overwatches and an entire turn out in the open.

 Ailaros wrote:
You missed the run in your first calculate.

And an "average 7 inch charge" doesn't mean much when you roll poorly on the charge roll. The cost of failure for making it into assault with a bunch of boyz is catastrophic. Say hello to two overwatches and an entire turn out in the open.

Check again. First calculate was non-waaagh assault, in which case you would not be running prior to assault.
Second calc was a waagh assault, which calculated in runs.

Failing assaults is a bummer, but it's never once been a deal breaker for me. The vast majority of the time I've been able to get close enough to the enemy to use even below average rolls. Of all my games of 6th so far, I've only failed non-terrain assaults thrice. The rest of the failed assaults were through terrain, which wasn't exactly a guaranteed situation in 5th either.

Naturally my experience isn't a representation for the entire hobby, but the only way you could have your assault distance half that of the average in 5th, was if you rolled double 1 to get out of the vehicle, and double 1 to assult. I certainly don't think assault is dead in any way. Blunted due to Overwatch, yes, but not something to be discarded.

 Kharrak wrote:

But, points are hard to come by, and the usual adage of keeping trukks as cheap as possible precisely due to their short life expectancy is still very important. Reinforced Rams are still priority, I'd say. If you have 15 - 25pts to spare, toss in the Red Paint.

I agree. Reinforced Ram may be the one upgrade you definitely want, for the reroll if you fail moving flat out.

What about grotriggers and stikkbomb chukka? Are they worth it?

Phydox wrote:
What about grotriggers and stikkbomb chukka? Are they worth it?

Considering the low initiative for Orks, stikkbombs have not much use, less so now that Furious Charge no longer grants +1 Initiative. You can use 'em if you're planning on assaulting Tau / Necrons / Orks through cover so that you can hit at the same time, or use 'em to assault non LC termies in cover and keep your ability to hit first. But past that, they have no use.

Grot Riggers are great, but I'd keep them on Deff Dreads and Battlewagons. They are great for fixing immobilized results due to Dangerous Terrain, but you're already getting a re-roll on that anyway with Reinforced Ram. Considering the urgency of the Trukk's lifespan, keeping the boyz inside for a 50% chance to fix the immobilized result is generally a decision I've never liked making. If the trukk gets immobilized, I get my boyz out and run to whatever objective I deem them most useful given the situation.

Agreed with Kharrak on all points above

 Kharrak wrote:

If you Waaagh...
5th ed = 12" move + 3" disembark shunt + 3.5" run + 6" assault = 24" - 25" average assault distance, 27" threat range.
6th ed = 6" move + 6" disembark + average 10.5" assault = 22" - 23" average assault distance, 24" threat range.

This is somewhat misleading since it's missing a very important point (besides the fact that average fleet charge distance is 8.5"). You can't Waaagh! on the first turn.

If you're counting the first turn's movement, 6th edition Trukk charge range is further than 5th editions, as Trukks can now Flat Out and extra 6" they didn't have access to before.

Not being to waaaghhh on turn 1 is important:
Hull points and the new movement make them much more likely to be in assault range turn 2, which is all your boyz want.

Though I feel comparing units in isolation just by looking at their own changes between editions is not the best way to analyse any unit.

Do not forgot to shoot the trukks weapons. Also remember to bring a ram.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kharrak wrote:

If you Waaagh...
5th ed = 12" move + 3" disembark shunt + 3.5" run + 6" assault = 24" - 25" average assault distance, 27" threat range.
6th ed = 6" move + 6" disembark + average 10.5" assault = 22" - 23" average assault distance, 24" threat range.

This is somewhat misleading since it's missing a very important point (besides the fact that average fleet charge distance is 8.5"). You can't Waaagh! on the first turn.

If you're counting the first turn's movement, 6th edition Trukk charge range is further than 5th editions, as Trukks can now Flat Out and extra 6" they didn't have access to before.

You can move 6" less on the second turn than in fifth, so that evens out.

The only thing I have on my Trukk now is RR. I only run one with 3 MegaNobz but they are still as good as they were before. The RR caused my opp's BikerNobz to flee, fail their BP reroll, (he also failed the armor save but made the FNP:() and almost run off the table before regrouping the next turn. At least it delayed them a turn before they got back in to it.

If nothing else, ramspam could be fun!

So, you don't HAVE to overwatch the first thing that comes by. You can always hold off to overwatch something else in the charge phase.

I mean, if I saw a mob of sluggas and a deff kopta, and the deff kopta charged, I would certainly risk not getting to overwatch against the kopta at all if it meant I had a chance to overwatch the sluggas.

Unless I am missing something, no, you don't have to fire overwatch - but units that are locked in close combat can not fire overwatch. So the tactic of charging in with something cheap is valid.

If you don't overwatch fire at a deffcopta, you are locked in combat with it and can't fire any overwatch at all. You get charged with a mob of smelly boyz.
If you do fire overwatch at the deffcopta you use up your overwatch for that unit, for that turn, and you still get charged with a mob of smelly boyz.

The tactic works well, even if you have to field a bunch of sacrificial models just to make overwatch go away. I reckon it is an expensive way to deal with something that shouldn't be a problem for a green tide player.
In my games, when I charge in, I know I will loose some boyz, It is inevitable. Of all the charges I make in a game I don't really loose that many to overwatch. If I ever felt my boyz would be seriously hurt because of an overwatch strike by simple
weight of dice I would definitely sacrifice a small insignificant unit to draw the fire away.

Incorrect. You declare who is charging what, collectively. So if you have 2 units that are going to charge a shoota boyz mob, you declare who is charging. Read Multiple Combats

So you can choose to let the sacrifice unit declare a charge, and save over watch for the scary unit that is also going to charge.

 KingCracker wrote:
Incorrect. You declare who is charging what, collectively. So if you have 2 units that are going to charge a shoota boyz mob, you declare who is charging. Read Multiple Combats

So you can choose to let the sacrifice unit declare a charge, and save over watch for the scary unit that is also going to charge.

Good catch there, KingCracker - I see what you're saying...
I re-read the Multiple Combats section, and it is more about you charging several enemy units at the same time, not you using multiple charges on the same target unit. However I did re-read the Assault Phase section and it seems to say that:
You choose a single unit you want to charge with.
Then your opponent decides if they want to Overwatch fire.
Then you roll for charge distance.
Then you move your models.
Then you may go back and choose another unit to charge.

So is it not possible for example, to declare a charge with a copta, opponent decides to overwatch, move in to base-to-base, and then choose the Boyz from the OP to charge in next?

Perhaps my first post wasn't very clear - if so I apologise for spreading confusion.

If this *is* correct, then to get around Overwatch fire tactic would work - which makes Boyz in Trukks still operational.

 PipeAlley wrote:
The only thing I have on my Trukk now is RR. I only run one with 3 MegaNobz but they are still as good as they were before. The RR caused my opp's BikerNobz to flee, fail their BP reroll, (he also failed the armor save but made the FNP:() and almost run off the table before regrouping the next turn. At least it delayed them a turn before they got back in to it.

If nothing else, ramspam could be fun!

Ramming trukks are actually really, really useful. The ability to bunch the enemy up for future blast barrages or the burnawagon, the ability to run infront of heavy guns to obscure their line of sight, to opt for a sudden surprise ram against vehicles, or even a "why the hell not" tank shock.

I had a recent game against a Tau player, and at one point decided to Tank Shock a tau Crisis Battlesuit team, located about 6" off the table. He opted to Death or Glory quite happily (he had meltas on them, I was reminded later), but managed to actually fail his leadership and off the table they went

Kremlin wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
Incorrect. You declare who is charging what, collectively. So if you have 2 units that are going to charge a shoota boyz mob, you declare who is charging. Read Multiple Combats

So you can choose to let the sacrifice unit declare a charge, and save over watch for the scary unit that is also going to charge.

Good catch there, KingCracker - I see what you're saying...
I re-read the Multiple Combats section, and it is more about you charging several enemy units at the same time, not you using multiple charges on the same target unit. However I did re-read the Assault Phase section and it seems to say that:
You choose a single unit you want to charge with.
Then your opponent decides if they want to Overwatch fire.
Then you roll for charge distance.
Then you move your models.
Then you may go back and choose another unit to charge.

So is it not possible for example, to declare a charge with a copta, opponent decides to overwatch, move in to base-to-base, and then choose the Boyz from the OP to charge in next?

Perhaps my first post wasn't very clear - if so I apologise for spreading confusion.

If this *is* correct, then to get around Overwatch fire tactic would work - which makes Boyz in Trukks still operational.

Yea so it wasnt in multiple assaults, I was plucking that from the depths of my brain

But the result is still the same. Look on pg20 on the left hand side and read "The assault phase summery" in that box. It goes
1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve overwatch
3.Roll charge range.
4. Charge Move
And heres the magic part right here
5. Declare next charge or Finish Charge Sub phase.


Shows you right there. You have to declare all the units that you are charging with, before actually fighting the assault. So they basically all moe, then stand there for a moment while you figure out who to take pot shots at. You have to remember that your whole army (or opponents) are all moving at the same time, but since we dont have 10 arms, and such, you have to move everything one by one. So if 2 or 3 or 4 units are charging the same thing, just because your physically moving them 1 at a time, they are in game, all moving at once.

There, ignore the kopta, shoot the boyz. Or whatever unit would make sense here

Yea so it wasnt in multiple assaults, I was plucking that from the depths of my brain

Nah thats ok mate - we don't always carry the BRB around with us at all times right? (maybe some of us do - but that's just sad )

Either way, what you post is still a summary - the *full* rules are right beside it on the right of page 20 as noted; does that not mean that the summary ones are just that - a quick reference, while the full set are there to iron out things like this?
I really don't want to detract from the OP here and hijack the thread - can we continue this discussion in PM? I would happily oblige.. Not to be an ass-hat or anything...

If you want too, I dont mind

I might be a little confused, but it looks like the full rules will allow the "Overwatch distraction" tactic to work.


From pg20:
-----
To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:
- First, pick one of your units, and declare which enemy it wishes to charge.
- Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see opposite).
- Once Overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit..
Once this has been done, you can either choose to declare a charge with another unit, or proceed to the Fight sub-phase.
-----

This is another relevant point, from pg23:
------
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.
While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.
------

I'll just call our 'ard unit of CC guys the "main unit" and the Overwatch bait the "sacrificial unit".
The sacrificial unit finishes its Charge and ends up in base-to-base contact with the target enemy unit, before we choose to declare a charge with the main unit.
The target enemy unit ends up with enemy models in base contact, and thus cannot shoot (you do not have to wait till the Fight sub-phase before they're locked).
Thus, there is no chance for Overwatch to be fired at the main unit.


TLDR: You do not declare all charges with all units, then start moving them.. you declare and move each unit, one by one. So if the first (sacrificial) unit gets into base-to-base contact, the target enemy unit is "engaged" and can no longer fire Overwatch at the second (main) charging unit.


Edit: Aaaaand I just noticed you guys were moving this to PM so as not to hijack the thread and look like a dick. Which I apparently look like, now. At the very least, I feel like one. Oookay then..

If you assault a unit with two units, you move one and then the next. No where does it say that you do it together. No where does it despite being engaged you can shoot overwatch at the 2nd unit.

You read the charge subphase it says you do the list per unit assaulting one at a time. The multicombat sections do not change this or mention a change.

Yes, things are happening simultaneously apart form they are not. You can shoot a rhino, then shoot the occupants. You can get a cover save from overwatch, even if the covering unit will later move.

Agree, you might be wrong on this one KC

It really works like shooting. You point at a unit, it does all the four steps, then you point at the next unit.

The backbreaker of the multi-assault tactic is the difficulty of actually pulling a multi-assault off. You absolutely may not move in base contact with a secondary charge target if that same model could also get into base contact with the primary target. In practice, this prevents bridging and often assaulting the second unit at all. With just 12 boyz, minus overwatch or even just five koptaz, it's hard to not get all of them in base contact with the primary unit and still have some of them be able to reach the secondary unit without breaking coherency.

No, Im most definitely correct. Once again, READ THE SUMMARY! Its a quick break down of how things work.

Taken Exactly from the summery + the addition of my own in italics

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch (As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units,
that unit can immediately fi.re Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.)
3. Roll charge range
4. Charge move
5. DECLARE NEXT CHARGE OR FINISH THE CHARGE SUB PHASE!!!!

FIGHT SUB-PHASE
1. Choose a Combat
2. Fight Close combat
3. Determine Assault results
4. Repeat Fight Sub-Phase or Finish Assalt Phase.

So try and and pick apart all you want, its there in black and white. Once a unit makes its charge move............ you stop and declare the next charge. So if 2 or more units are charging a single unit, that single unit can choose to NOT overwatch the first or second unit, and choose to overwatch on the third, BECAUSE your not IN close combat yet. This isnt something that can be lawyerd apart like other rules, its in black and white and that page. Read the summary, youll see Im correct on this one.

I'm somehow missing your point. Let's try examples.

Scenario: A unit of boyz, a deff dread and a kopta want to charge a unit of burnaz.

1. I declare to charge burnaz with kopta
2. You decide not to overwatch because kopta is 10" away.
3. I roll something less than 10
4. I fail the initial charge
5. I declare to charge burnaz with deff dread
2. You decide not to overwatch because you can't hurt it anyways.
3. I roll box cars
4. Deff dread makes the charge move, is in base contact with burnaz.
5. I declare to charge with boyz
2. You cannot fire overwatch, because burnaz are locked in combat with a deff dread
3. I roll any result.
4. Successful charge move, boyz are in base contact with burnaz
5. Finish charge sub-phase.

Where do you think I have gone wrong?

^That's the way I've been playing it, too. Declare charge -> resolve overwatch -> roll -> move -> declare next charge. This means that, if your opponent chooses to skip overwatch on the first charge, he might be unable to use it on the second if the first charging unit manages to get into base contact.

But I see KingCracker's point: Units are not locked in CC until the beginning of the fight phase, so they may use overwatch even if in base contact with another unit.

This is stuff to be adressed by a FAQ, really.

I agree with KC on this one. The 6th rule book does not say at what point you become locked, but the last FAQ for 5th said you become locked when the models start swinging at each other. I know this is 6th and not 5th but that is how I would rule on the matter if I was a judge.

Cyke wrote:

...
TLDR: You do not declare all charges with all units, then start moving them.. you declare and move each unit, one by one. So if the first (sacrificial) unit gets into base-to-base contact, the target enemy unit is "engaged" and can no longer fire Overwatch at the second (main) charging unit....

I'd say right there it covers when a model or unit is "engaged" or "tied-up"

i felt that it makes more sense choosing your overwatch instead of losing it after the first unit closes the gap, but i do have to say they are making a reasonable arguement and im starting to feel(unless they FAQ it) that a unit does in fact lose overwatch as soon as the first unit closes that gap.

The overwatch rule says 'locked in combat'
Page 23 gives the definition of 'locked in combat'
This is quite clear cut for GW, see the definition of emplaced(or what the variety of fortification weapons are) gun and grounded monsters.

So you take your first unit: declare, decide not to overwatch, roll charge, move models into base to base. Then the enemy becomes locked.
You declare the next unit charge, but the enemy is locked

Replying to above, I am not quoting for ease, re difficulty of multiassaulting:
Assaulting two units with one, is near impossible now.
Assaulting one unit with two, needs lucky lowish rolls for hordes of orks but units of 12 boys can neatly leave space for other models.
It sounds silly but the positioning preassault is crucial anyway:You want the nearest model after overwatch to be close, you want the nob to be more than 3'' away after the assault move, you want all the models to be within 5.5'' after assault move, now if you want to leave room for another unit you want to leave more to end up near the 5.5'' limit.

I really didn't mean for this to become a big stir but I can definitely see where KingCracker is coming from - I would still just like to try and clarify something though:

2. Resolve Overwatch (As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units,
that unit can immediately fi.re Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.)

OK the part in the Italics *implies* that you can shoot at another unit that is charging you this turn. One example of when you wouldn't want to declare an overwatch shot has already been mentioned by Jidmah:

1. I declare to charge burnaz with kopta
2. You decide not to overwatch because kopta is 10" away.
3. I roll something less than 10
4. I fail the initial charge

As noted, in this situation you think to yourself "Nah the kopta isn't going to make it, Gork and Mork isn't with my opponents dice today. I'll skip that overwatch shot in favour of the boyz mob about to charge me"

Also, as mentioned earlier:

This is another relevant point, from pg23:
------
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.
While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.

And:
Page 21 - Overwatch restrictions
"units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch"

Here it basiclly says ,If you choose to save your overwatch for the second unit and the first unit actually makes it in to combat, you're locked in close combat - no more overwatch for you.

The thing you lot are missing, is the "locked in combat" part, is under the Fight Sub-phase, which again comes after the overwatch and charge portion in the summary. Im nearly banging my head against the desk because you guys are somehow missing how the summary works. Im NOT going to post the damn thing again, for a 3rd time.

Now follow, step by step, how the summary tells you how to do this whole thing. It says to declare other charges, before you trigger the fight sub-phase. IE ANYTHING that happens before the fight sub-phase, happens before the fight sub-phase. So again, you declare different units to charge the same unit, you can BE in base contact, they are not locked, because that happens IN the sub-phase. And what happens before the Fight Sub-Phase? Thats right! Over watch and charges!

Ok, I understand where KingCracker is coming from, but I think he's reading too much into where the definition of "locked in combat" is located in the rules.

Yes, the Fight sub-phase comes after the Charge sub-phase, which means it comes after all charges and Overwatches.

Yes, the definition of "locked in combat" is found in the Fight Sub-phase portion of the text.

However, what does the "locked in combat" rule actually say?

Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.

The rule doesn't say anything about when this takes effect. It doesn't read, "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies at the start of the Fight Sub-phase become locked in combat." It is a state that occurs whenever models are in base contact, which happens as soon as a unit is contacted in the Charge sub-phase. Could this rule have been placed in a different location to avoid confusion? Certainly. Might an FAQ be helpful for this reason? Yeah, it would. Is the rule itself ambiguous? In my opinion, it's pretty clear. Look at the next sentence: "At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below." Engaged is a state that happens at a certain time during the Fight Sub-phase, and this is clearly spelled out, in clear contrast to the state of being locked in combat.

The rules for Focus Fire are found on p.18, after the rules for making armor, invulnerable and cover saving throws. However, this rule outlines a decision that must be made before rolling to Hit. Although the Shooting and Assault rules are laid out chronologically for the most part, there are exceptions, and you can't assume that something is a certain way without the rules explicitly saying so.

King, I have read and reread your post on fight subphase, I still do not see where it says "locked in combat". Combat happens in the subfight phase, but you are locked in combat before that.

I would have to agree that the locked in combat happens with the first successful charge.

Oh you guys.............Obviously cannot follow a numbered rules set. Basically what you are doing, is assembling a computer desk, you read parts 1-4 and then skip to parts 13 and wonder why the drawers wont shut. Im done trying to argue rules in the tactics thread

I've read and reread, and nowhere in your "steps" does it say "tied in combat" so we have to assume this takes place when it says it does elsewhere.

No need to get pissy act like a child and start hurling insults. Show me where it saysunits are TIED IN COMBAT

Ladies and Gentlemen, there's a subforum ...wait let me rephrase that more appropriately

Ladies, there's a subforum called YMDC. Take it over there.

KC- I Hears ya. Hopefully it'll get FAQ slapped soon

Shoota Boyz are much more versatile than Sluggas. I'd rather have that versatility then the extra attack you get from a Slugga.

Thank you for posting that totally relevant information! I exalted your post, go hog wild

 KingCracker wrote:
Oh you guys.............Obviously cannot follow a numbered rules set. Basically what you are doing, is assembling a computer desk, you read parts 1-4 and then skip to parts 13 and wonder why the drawers wont shut. Im done trying to argue rules in the tactics thread

It seems to me (not being an ork player) that in this edition, more than 5th, Orks need weight of numbers to make a difference in CC, because more of them will die to shooting. Trukk mobs just don't seem to bring that. Throwing multiple mobs at one target can work, but that seems inefficient and an easy plan to disrupt. Battlewagons and Shoota Boyz just seem like a stronger option for Orks now.

I love how Im suddenly raging over a rule, when Im very clearly not raging . Nor were any personal attacks thrown. I think you lot need stop reading things as personal when they are not. And yes I read your post, twice even to make sure your point was clear. Im not the only one that thinks thats how the rules work, Im simply the only one being verbal about it. Many people are too afraid/insecure to state what they believe to be fact.

So again, lets get back on topic and stop a ridiculous rules debate

 KingCracker wrote:
No, Im most definitely correct. Once again, READ THE SUMMARY! Its a quick break down of how things work.

Taken Exactly from the summery + the addition of my own in italics

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch (As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units,
that unit can immediately fi.re Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.)
3. Roll charge range
4. Charge move
5. DECLARE NEXT CHARGE OR FINISH THE CHARGE SUB PHASE!!!!

FIGHT SUB-PHASE
1. Choose a Combat
2. Fight Close combat
3. Determine Assault results
4. Repeat Fight Sub-Phase or Finish Assalt Phase.

So try and and pick apart all you want, its there in black and white. Once a unit makes its charge move............ you stop and declare the next charge. So if 2 or more units are charging a single unit, that single unit can choose to NOT overwatch the first or second unit, and choose to overwatch on the third, BECAUSE your not IN close combat yet. This isnt something that can be lawyerd apart like other rules, its in black and white and that page. Read the summary, youll see Im correct on this one.

Page 21 has overwatch restrictions. Units locked in close combat cannot fire overwatch. Ok, so no overwatching if locked. Now, what do the rules say for locked in close combat?
Page 23 says: Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in close combat.
Multiple combat rules can be ignored, as it only give rules for having 1 unit charging into 2 enemies, it says nothing about having 2 units charging a single enemy.

You are told to check for locked in the overwatch rules. The definition of locked doesn't limit it to the fight subphase.

If you ignore the first unit and it connects, you can no longer overwatch as per the Overwatch Restrictions and the Specific Rule for "locked in close combat".

It's pretty strait forward. Overwatch has a limitation. Look up that limitation in the index, and it tells you what it means. Adding in the locked only happens in the fight subphase is adding something to the rule that isn't in the rule.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you ignore the first unit and it connects, you can no longer overwatch as per the Overwatch Restrictions and the Specific Rule for "locked in close combat".

This is my understanding as well. It's lead me to the idea of pairing trukkboyz with deff koptas and using the deff koptas as a pre-assault-assault.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
junk and stuff

Your correct you can find what you mentioned on said page numbers. Heres the problem. Over watch is on page 21, when talking about the charge sub-phase. The rules your speaking about are under the Fight Sub-phase which starts on page page 22 after the descriptions of how one works out the charge sub-phase. Overwatch is charge subphase, and units being locked are in the fight subphase. 2 totally different phases, so again, order takes precedence.

Mod PM'ed, because this is getting silly and should be renamed+moved to YMDC

Let's leave the rules discussion aside--and keep on topic. Thanks.

Has anyone started a thread on YMDC about this?

Basically once we've sorted this out, then we can get back to the OP about how to best continue using his Trukk Boyz; his concern is enemy Overwatch fire reducing the the effectiveness of his Boyz!

I dont think a thread in YMDC would really work. Itll just continue to be argued about. It really can go either way. So we would have to wait for GW to FAQ stating when exactly being in base to base starts counting for being locked, right when it happens, or in the Fight Subphase like I was saying. Itll just be argued in circles

 KingCracker wrote:
I don’t think a thread in YMDC would really work. It’ll just continue to be argued about. It really can go either way. So we would have to wait for GW to FAQ stating when exactly being in base to base starts counting for being locked, right when it happens, or in the Fight Sub phase like I was saying. It’ll just be argued in circles

^^ This and Hi-5 to KC.

It is a personal call. If you would like to create an entire thread on this, go right ahead - I *still* apologise to the OP for this diversion. I never ment it to go this far. I was happy to move it to PM with KC about our views.

I will go out on a limb here and state, without reservation: that *if* in the interest of gaming (which it is) and *fun* (which it should be about), that the rules are a GUIDELINE.
I will let that sink in a moment.

They are a GUIDELINE in the interest of an enjoyable game for BOTH players. If I really *HAVE* to reference:
Pg.2 Small rule book, 5th Ed:
Entitled "The most important rule!" states:

Winning at all cost is less important than making sure both players - not just the victor - have a good time.

Quoted For Truth.

To those that may rebuttal that those were 5th Ed rules and not 6th: I reply, I hope I never meet you on the tabletop.

To continue the OP thread - I think choppa's and Trukks have a place in 6th - depending on how you use them. You may concede to a "6th Ed is a shooters only game". Or you can say "Screw it! I will surprise the hell out of my opponent next time I play" and FIND a workaround.
It is all in your strategy, and your tactics (not the same thing). Go at it son; wreck the opinions of the norm mate!

Yea back on topic. I think choppas in trukks are really the only place for trukks once again. Sure you can put shootas in there, but the small amount of shootas wont really give you that bang you get from a big blob of them. Also, I dont get why some people are so freaked out from Overwatch. Unless your charging a huge blob of Shoota boyz, burnas or a big ol blob of IG, theres really nothing to worry about. Pretty much every other unit in the game would do a small amount of damage. Now Im not saying, blindly run into assaults overwatch be damned! But Im still saying, the wounds that are generated is pretty minimal.

One thing I learned, people will tell you somehing works Well or doesnt, the only true way to find out is to play it different strokes for different folks!

You may find that in you FLGS a trukk rush list works very well, where it might not work so well at mine I'm all for "give it a run and see how it goes"!

Haven't said that it's still mostly the same boys in trukks don't need shootas, and boys on foot are better off with them

The other way around isn't true though.

You'll find that things that work well for many people rarely don't work well for your special FLGS though. In 5th, when I got kanz for my birthday, I simply glued them together, converted some rokkit-arms from my bitz box and put them in front of my boyz, it worked every single time, no matter who I was playing at what store. Because the kan wall tactic was good.
However, when I fielded my swarms of deff koptaz it always hinged on whether my opponent could force ld checks on them, or even saw that weakness in the first place. If they didn't have to roll on their ld7 they absolutely rocked the game. If they did, they ran off the board and cost me the game.

So, if trukks work great for you at your store today, all it takes is a new player showing up with a new army, or one of veterans picking up a couple of new models to break it for you tomorrow. If you use a strategy that works for people all around the world at different stores against different opponents, that risk is going towards zero.

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and have started to see some viability in it, but only if you spam the hell out of it.

You can pack in 72 infantry models and 6 trukks, including klaw nobs and trukk upgrades for less than 1000 points. If you had, say, a 1500 point list that started with this and then added a nob biker squad with a biker boss, or a battlewagon or two full of MANZ, there might still be something to this still.

Even with trukk changes, it's still very possible to have a turn 2 assault. When said assault is done with triple digit numbers, including some nobz in various forms, that has the potential to be very scary.

Thats pretty similar to how I ran my Orks when I first got into them. Id spam trukks with the BW or two playing blockers. Once they got close enough, the trukks would zip out from behind the big guys and charge head long into the front lines. It either was shot up early, OR it would hit the lines like a sledgehammer

Are burna trukks too fragile - even if you have a couple of meks in with the burnas to run repairs? Meks could be useful with KMBs and being characters.

I'm finding it beneficial to run some shoota mobs without PK's - it is probably only useful in smaller games though.

Id say probably. But it can be done. 2 meks and 10 burnas. Youd still get a pretty good amount of hits but the problem is, the trukk is only a 10, so youll be fine against glances....maybe, but pens you can forget about it. Thats why they are typically seen in the BW formation. At least those can take a beating

PKs are now too overpriced for how easily they can be picked out of a squad of boyz and killed, or rendered useless. A 50pt model dieing quickly in CC or just standing around cause he refused the challenge is alot of points wasted.

I say skip the PK and use BCs, maybe try a blend, see how you feel about BC vs PK. I personally am gonna load BCs on my nobz next time I play.

Stop thinking in 5th edition where you would sent one mob to one target (Which was never a good idea to do in the first place with Trukks). Gang up. If you see 2 Trukk mobs as 1 unit, you will still have one Klaw attacking.

 Kharrak wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You missed the run in your first calculate.

And an "average 7 inch charge" doesn't mean much when you roll poorly on the charge roll. The cost of failure for making it into assault with a bunch of boyz is catastrophic. Say hello to two overwatches and an entire turn out in the open.

Check again. First calculate was non-waaagh assault, in which case you would not be running prior to assault.
Second calc was a waagh assault, which calculated in runs.

Failing assaults is a bummer, but it's never once been a deal breaker for me. The vast majority of the time I've been able to get close enough to the enemy to use even below average rolls. Of all my games of 6th so far, I've only failed non-terrain assaults thrice. The rest of the failed assaults were through terrain, which wasn't exactly a guaranteed situation in 5th either.

Naturally my experience isn't a representation for the entire hobby, but the only way you could have your assault distance half that of the average in 5th, was if you rolled double 1 to get out of the vehicle, and double 1 to assault. I certainly don't think assault is dead in any way. Blunted due to Overwatch, yes, but not something to be discarded.

Lol thrice? Seems like it happens at least once a game.. Random charge length really sucks.. If I had a guaranteed 5 inches i would be happy! Ive had games where I only needed 4 inches, and I rolled a 3 even with fleet! Random charge length is horrible... So yeah, only 3 time for you is really good, cause it happens at least once a game for me.

I'm not even talking about trukk size squads, I'm talking about boy squads in general

 AresX8 wrote:
I never thought about multicharging to draw multiple Overwatches, that's a great tactic right there!

This is indeed GENIUS. I'll remeber that

So let's say I've got 8 box's of boys to assemble, should they be shoota or slugga? I'm doing footsloging greentide if that matters.

Shootas hands down. Specially in a horde situation, youll be shocked at how lethal their shooting is. THEN they still get 3 attacks each on the charge. I run a horde-ish army of BadMoonz and I focus on Ork shooting. Yes, Ork shooting. Its incredibly killy

I generally see it, at least how I put it for green tide in 5th, was that the shootas still got the job done.

When you charge in with 116 attacks and a bunch of powerklaw hits, you are gonna kill whatever it is many times over. (Save for the lucky terminators). You charge in with the same number of shoota boys, you get the same amount of attacks (if you include the pre-charge shoot). Also, even without the shooting beforehand, 90 attacks is still more than enough to slaughter whatever it connects with.

Both units can murder practically anything in assault, while shootaboys now have the ability to murder in the shooting phase to.

I stopped using Sluggaboys after the save-killer choppas got put in the lost n found for this reason.

I sooooooo hope they give us the choppa rule back in our next dex. Man that would be awesome anti troop, specially those guys with the really good saves.

 Roboute wrote:

It seems to me (not being an ork player) that in this edition, more than 5th, Orks need weight of numbers to make a difference in CC, because more of them will die to shooting. Trukk mobs just don't seem to bring that. Throwing multiple mobs at one target can work, but that seems inefficient and an easy plan to disrupt. Battlewagons and Shoota Boyz just seem like a stronger option for Orks now.

This is right on. You start multi charging trukks and your looking at committing at the least (142 x 2) 284 pts for 2 trukks 22 boyz 2 big shootas and 2 nobs. Its just easier to blow something away using 105+ pts for 7+ lootas.

I'm actually a lite nervous for the next dex after reading the chaos one. I'm afraid they might make orks have to issue and accept challenges as well. I like the ability to chose

It would hurt ork competition, but I like the RP aspect of making ork characters accept challenges, of course this hinderance should be coupled with a slight decrease in cost. I'll take that!

 wowsmash wrote:
I'm actually a lite nervous for the next dex after reading the chaos one. I'm afraid they might make orks have to issue and accept challenges as well. I like the ability to chose

Keep in mind that the entire codex is going to change, not just some things. Chaos characters get a decent bonus for accepting those challenges, up to turning into a demon prince out of nowhere. If my nobz turn into warbosses after winning challenges, I'll no longer need a rule to force me to accept those.

Or, we get to loot all the wargear of any character we crush in a challenge. Look, my warboss pulled your overlord of his command bark and krumped him dead. Guess who has a brand new Waaagh!-scythe?

Jidmah wrote:Or, we get to loot all the wargear of any character we crush in a challenge.

I wouldn't worry too much about orks being required to accept a challenge. Remember, orks are as kunnin' as they are brutal. Sometimes a nob knows when it's time to live another day.

What would be more orky is if an ork unit received a challenge, the nob could force another model in his squad to accept it on his behalf.

"You wanna be a nob someday? Well, how 'bout you fight like one for a change! See dat big shiny one? He wants a fight, so go give it to 'em!"

That would be very interesting. Mephiston loppering down the ork mob one by one.

Look who I just tarpitted für the next 15 game turns!

 Ailaros wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Or, we get to loot all the wargear of any character we crush in a challenge.

I wouldn't worry too much about orks being required to accept a challenge. Remember, orks are as kunnin' as they are brutal. Sometimes a nob knows when it's time to live another day.

What would be more orky is if an ork unit received a challenge, the nob could force another model in his squad to accept it on his behalf.

"You wanna be a nob someday? Well, how 'bout you fight like one for a change! See dat big shiny one? He wants a fight, so go give it to 'em!"

That would be both hilarious and awesome. Reminds me of the old grot shield wall people would use with the 3rd ed codex.

 Jidmah wrote:
Look who I just tarpitted für the next 15 game turns!

GW writer : How can we possibly make the best tarpit unit in the game.....an even better tarpit unit?
Real life Nob: Make da boyz do da foight'n!!

We really should get a real life nob to write our codex.

Well, that, or Phil Kelly. He did a great job last time.