So I read the 6th ed Chaos codex, and while I know we are moving away from the total cheese fests(at least from a rules perspective) of 5th, but I couldn't help but think that Chaos isn't very scary. A lot of what they had got points reductions, which was
good. But when I look at the LATE 5th ed crons dex, which was clearly made with 6th ed in mind, I feel like Chaos just doesn't stand up in many ways. They don't appear to do anything better than current marine codexes that are out. Another big hit is no
dreadclaws/pods. And their Land raider and a lot of other things stayed pretty much the same. I can usually glance at a codex and start putting combos together immediately, but from what I've seen, I'm anything but impressed. The biggest thing is,
cultists, which was awesome, and Flakk missile's,(10 pts per man!) and the new forgefiend seems pretty decent. The overall though for me on CSM is "same old same old", with a slight buff, but nothing to write home
about. several dead weight units imo, anyways, I'd love to hear intelligent counter opinions, and thoughts from those who have read it.
bobamus87 wrote: So I read the 6th ed Chaos codex, and while I know we are moving away from the total cheese fests(at least from a rules perspective) of 5th, but I couldn't help but think that Chaos isn't very scary. A lot of what they had got points reductions, which was
good. But when I look at the LATE 5th ed crons dex, which was clearly made with 6th ed in mind, I feel like Chaos just doesn't stand up in many ways. They don't appear to do anything better than current marine codexes that are out. Another big hit is no
dreadclaws/pods. And their Land raider and a lot of other things stayed pretty much the same. I can usually glance at a codex and start putting combos together immediately, but from what I've seen, I'm anything but impressed. The biggest thing is,
cultists, which was awesome, and Flakk missile's,(10 pts per man!) and the new forgefiend seems pretty decent. The overall though for me on CSM is "same old same old", with a slight buff, but nothing to write home
about. several dead weight units imo, anyways, I'd love to hear intelligent counter opinions, and thoughts from those who have read it.
The CSM player in my group has done great for quite sometime. He runs a Noise Marine/Obliterator list and it can put the hurt out in many ways. He is competitive enough, just needed a few tweaks to keep up to date. This is exactly what happened. There are times with armies (old DE, oldcrons) where they are so bad that a massive boost is really needed. Expect this to happen to Tau for instance. However, there are other armies that just need a nudge to stay competitive, I expect this for Black Templars for example (anything based off Marines can never turn out to be THAT bad in the future). Granted, I will have to see this on the field but from what I have gathered it sounded like some decent buffs, while a bit of de-buff to pull them in line with how the creators want them to be played.
Yea it really feels like the same (not that good) dex with the new units tacked on to me.
I was also really disappointed to see cultists didn't have options not available from the DV kit since I was hoping for a second wave but if there was going to be one with plastic, multi part, cultists they would have at least as many equipment options as guardsmen I think.
jonolikespie wrote: Yea it really feels like the same (not that good) dex with the new units tacked on to me.
I was also really disappointed to see cultists didn't have options not available from the DV kit since I was hoping for a second wave but if there was going to be one with plastic, multi part, cultists they would have at least as many equipment options as guardsmen I think.
There better be a cultist kit anyway, if they release the DV cultists in a box...
A friend of mine pointed out the noise marine combo you can do with the new 2/3 salvo gun they have, coupled with their respective psychic power for the +1 str. I noticed the psychic power at first, but didn't look into it further, so there's that too. Idk, even after he and I spoke for a bit today, I'm still not convinced, but, some gaps were filled in, and things got better, so I guess it's still a win for CSM players. Seems like their baseline elite choice (terminators) are still fairly cheap, with a PW for making an axe/sword/mace, ect, and normal Marines are pretty cheap too. I'm not one for metaphors, but I told my friend I thought CSM was like a mediocre buffet where few things stood out, and I had to put things on my plate that I didn't like. He pointed out, it's what these units Become, that make them good, not what they start off as. So, until I make some lists, I'm of the opinion that they are a decent generalist force, with some tailoring options thrown in. On a side note, demon princes are still T-5 base?!?!?! There are marines that are as tough/tougher than that! They should be T-6 base imo.
pretre wrote: They did release cultists in a box. It is called Dark Vengeance.
I meant if they make a 2nd wave cultist box!!!!!11! and its just the DV cultists, I'm going to lose it
They won't, simply because the cultists come on 2 'common' sprues, which include a bolter Chosen, a Stormbolter Deathwing, 4 autogun cultists and 4 autopistol/ccw cultists.
To release them as a standalone box, they'd have to recut a whole mold. If they were planning to release them separately, they'd have done them on their own individual sprue to get around making a second expensive mold for them.
The book feels like a fantasy book. They streamlined several options making more viable units and toned down a few things (like lash). Its not as over the top as necrons or grey knights however hopefully the ones that follow will do the same courtesy.
I like it, it reminded me of the 2nd Edition Chaos codex (sans Daemonworld list). It had good flavour, it's flexible and does a good job of representing the, err, chaos of Chaos. I also like the models, but then, I was a fan of the late-80's to mid-90's Chaos look (I like old-school 2000AD visuals, so sue me :p ) so I may actually make a Chaos force this go-around. It is an improvement over the Gavdex and feels more unified (mechanically) than the hack-job that was the 3.5E codex. And the presence of allies in 6E allows to to work with a lot of older or more esoteric collections. It stumbles in a few places (some WTFs from terminator equipment loadouts and such), but there is a lot more good than bad in it.
lazarian wrote: The book feels like a fantasy book. They streamlined several options making more viable units and toned down a few things (like lash). Its not as over the top as necrons or grey knights however hopefully the ones that follow will do the same courtesy.
Phil Kelly basically just ported his Warriors of Chaos book to 40k it feels like.
The Champions of Chaos rule in particular. Now, in Fantasy, this is fine, as Chaos heroes/lords/champions/etc are basically the baddest dudes around relative to their equivalents, they're Character killers and this focuses them on that and keeps them from butchering through units, reinforcing what they should be about and the fluff very heavily reinforces that. With Chaos Space Marines, this isn't really true, most of the armies in the game have characters of roughly equal standing and the CSM's aren't in it just for the glory of the Chaos gods but for revenge at any cost and they'd just as soon blast their enemy commander with a big cannon or overwhelm them in weeny dudes as face them head on in many cases. It feels forced. .
Overall it looks like they basically just went through, slashed some costs in some places, inexplicably raised it in others, and basically looked around and said "what are the major complaints? Oh, do this and this, it sorta fixes like one or two things and we'll add some weird looking big things and call it a Codex", with major issues remaining (dreads for example, or "hellbrutes" while not actively dangerous to you anymore, still really don't serve a purpose and are notably expensive for what they do, Thousand Sons are still ridiculously overcosted, in fact Tzeentch in general is pretty awful...)
There's some cool stuff, as much as I hate the model of the Heldrake I can dig its fluff and a lot of units like bikes and raptors got more reasonably adjusted, but a lot of other stuff just doesn't make sense, and it feels like Kelly realized "hey, I derp'd the hell out of Space Wolves in a couple places, lets not do that again" after the cat's been let out of the bag and the metagame realigned toward that paradigm.
Not to mention a lot of unit costs are really weird. Combi-weapons for characters are 7pts, a a lightning claw is 17, a powerfist 22...
And we still have the issue where Marked elite units like Terminators are notably missing the same blessings as their power armored troop brothers...
At least the fluff is decent if nothing else. I'm not a fan of the re-naming of Dreadnoughts and the like, but the fluff tends to read decently from what I've seen so far.
It's exactly what I feared Kelly would do to it. Fluffybear flavorful mechanics that are stupid or overcosted. Witness the obliterator. Can't fire the same gun twice in a row. A fluffy rule, but awful, awful, awful. Inexplicable nerf to Terminator equipment and the joy of mandatory Champion that has to pay more for upgrades. Mark of Khorne was made strictly worse for no discernable reason and the very concept of the daemon weapon was shoehorned into a narrow artefact/special character concept. The artefacts are a cute fluffy idea but poorly done. Access to totally random powers in return for taking damage. Genius.
I mean, Kelly made Princes WS9 and I8 and still made them unplayably bad. Stuck at T5 with no EW means your 200 point monster HQ lives in fear of railguns, demolisher cannons, and force weapons.
I'm going to be completely hones here, but if Chaos isn't crazy over the top, that's a good thing. The last thing we need is another space wolf, GK, Necron, or IG codex, where it has a few insanely powerful units that everyone always takes and the rest are considered garbage because they just can't compete with the few "no brainer" choices.
That said, forcing randomness, endless rolling on tables, and bizarre restrictions on players is probably not the best way to go about this.
There are definitely a few flaws with the book, but I like the direction they're taking. Chaos players are given tons of options, most of which are not no-brainers...few auto-includes and few that completely suck.
As for the power level of the book, I think it's nearly perfect. Maybe a bit weak, but that's just in comparison with the codices for the past 1.5 years (namely GK and Crons). CSM were never really one of the "worst" books. They lowered the points on almost everything, made a few things more useful, and added some extra options on top. Seems reasonable to me.
GreyHamster wrote: It's exactly what I feared Kelly would do to it. Fluffybear flavorful mechanics that are stupid or overcosted. Witness the obliterator. Can't fire the same gun twice in a row. A fluffy rule, but awful, awful, awful. Inexplicable nerf to Terminator equipment and the joy of mandatory Champion that has to pay more for upgrades. Mark of Khorne was made strictly worse for no discernable reason and the very concept of the daemon weapon was shoehorned into a narrow artefact/special character concept. The artefacts are a cute fluffy idea but poorly done. Access to totally random powers in return for taking damage. Genius.
I mean, Kelly made Princes WS9 and I8 and still made them unplayably bad. Stuck at T5 with no EW means your 200 point monster HQ lives in fear of railguns, demolisher cannons, and force weapons.
Don't Daemon Princes have the 'Daemon' special rule? I haven't seen the codex but if they don't that really is frustrating
Overall it looks like they basically just went through, slashed some costs in some places, inexplicably raised it in others, and basically looked around and said "what are the major complaints? Oh, do this and this, it sorta fixes like one or two things and we'll add some weird looking big things and call it a Codex", with major issues remaining (dreads for example, or "hellbrutes" while not actively dangerous to you anymore, still really don't serve a purpose and are notably expensive for what they do, Thousand Sons are still ridiculously overcosted, in fact Tzeentch in general is pretty awful...)
There's some cool stuff, as much as I hate the model of the Heldrake I can dig its fluff and a lot of units like bikes and raptors got more reasonably adjusted, but a lot of other stuff just doesn't make sense, and it feels like Kelly realized "hey, I derp'd the hell out of Space Wolves in a couple places, lets not do that again" after the cat's been let out of the bag and the metagame realigned toward that paradigm.
Had a quick glance and first impression is that it really feels like rewritten 4th Ed codex. There are new units, somewhat more options, but overall it doesn't really 'feel' like a new Codex. Legions for the most part still aren't fleshed out that much. I was also modestly disappointed to amount of fluff, I was expecting more fluff, particularly about legions and renegade chapters. And does the design studio really hate Thousand Sons or what the heck is up with their laughable points costs?
Anyway, that was just the first impression and at very least, it does offer more options for Chaos players, particularly with Allies.
From everything I've read and seen this Codex appears to be an actual Chaos Codex, unlike whatever the feth the last one was pretending to be. Sure it has Dinobots and the look of the new Raptors are a bit over the top with the "OMG CHAOS!" aspect, but overall I think it's an improvement...
...
...
...
... except, and no matter how much I try to look past it, the stupid and utter bull gak heaped upon Chaos Terminators just does nothing but raise my blood pressure. Most of my Termy models are now illegal for no other reason than I had the temerity to give them varied weapons, and we still don't have Cult Terminators. It's a joke.
-Loki- wrote: To release them as a standalone box, they'd have to recut a whole mold. If they were planning to release them separately, they'd have done them on their own individual sprue to get around making a second expensive mold for them.
Unless they're a completely new release, similar in style (even identical in places), but a whole separate kit.
From what I've seen, it tries to be a mix of both the 2nd and 3.5 ed codexes, but it has a big problem that it is neither as good.
I like some of the fluffy stuff included on some of the units, but some, like the lack of marks on Terminators and a lack of Daemon Weapons doesn't quite cut the mustard for me.
From what I can see, this book is made for those who want to go legion specific, but it is clear that the author doesn't want the fiasco of the uber powerful 3.5 ed codex and the game breaking that it caused in army construction.
For people wanting to make armies based on one of the legions that worship a god, it works. For those wanting to make Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Black Legion and of course Red Corsairs or any other renegade list, it works. For Night Lords and Word Bearers, it doesn't cut it, which is a shame.
Sure, there are some kool units, but again, nothing in the core units to make an army unique. There is nothing to make an army stand out and go "Look at me, I'm fething awesome" like there was in 2nd and 3.5 ed.
Will I be buying the Codex? Yes, I collect them and I have every 40k gaming book ever printed.
Do I like the rules? I really really want to, but there is this little niggling thing that the army could have been a lot better if they just tweaked it a little more. Giving us Legion Termies would not have been game breaking and minor legion specific rules would not have gone a miss either.
So... Will I be buying an army of Chaos? Hell Yes I will be. I completely boycotted the last codex as I couldn't stand the amount of nerfing and lack of legion specific stuff. As a mid point between my favorite 2nd Ed Codex and my least favorite codex of them all (Chaos 4th ed), this is a good book. Some of the new models, I really like, but some are just Dinobots or Power Rangers 40K style and will be left out. I played Black Legion in 2nd Ed and in 3.5, I played Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Emperor's Children and Death Guard. So yeah, a return to my favorite army for fluff is long overdue.
So, which direction am I taking my new Chaos Army? Well, I wanted to go Night Lords, but alas there isn't enough there for me to do so. I'm currently torn by either making my own Renegade Chapter or by going with my old Tourney Winners while muttering the words "Iron Within, Iron Without".
Fabius Bile appears to be an awesome HQ choice for low points.
Fearless, VotlW, T4, 3+/5+ FNP5 attacks at S5 that have the Instant Death rule (wut.)...good in melee.
On top of that, he also gets to have a very strong ranged weapon..sure, no AP, but 2+ poison. Yes please?
And ON TOP of that, you get to improve 1 squad of CSM...+1S and fearless? Yeah.
To me, he looks like the best guy to ally with. You get a good HQ, your mandatory troop choice are tin cans that get further improvement and afterwards, you can get the stuff you really allied for (like flakk Havocs).
/e: Hmmm...take a squad of 10 CSM, give each one a hand weapon, Mark of Khorne, that already makes them have 4 attacks at S5 per model on the charge...40 S5 attacks at I4? Yes please. Add Icon of Wrath and you get 40 S6 attacks at I4 at the charge on a fearless unit. I'M SOLD.
Actually, add +1 attack for the champion and the 7 attacks for Fabius while you're at it. Holy crap, that's a lot of attacks. Charging isn't too hard either since you're allowed to re-roll the charge distance.
Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.
I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.
I'm just sad because for the longest time i've been saying "Man, thousand sons look cool, I'll wait for the new dex to balance them out so I can play a small detachment"
and then this made me sad. I think I'm abandoning the idea entirely.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm just sad because for the longest time i've been saying "Man, thousand sons look cool, I'll wait for the new dex to balance them out so I can play a small detachment"
and then this made me sad. I think I'm abandoning the idea entirely.
Sorry, man.
How about Emperor's Children? I've heard that Noise Marines with sonic blasters/blastmasters got a bit cheaper. Will they be viable?
ZebioLizard2 wrote:And again, Slaanesh armies got kicked again
Ah, what? How on earth did Slaanesh get kicked? Noise Marines are one of the better two cult troops now, the icon now grants FNP, Lucius got better; no I'm not seeing how Slaanesh got kicked again.
Just played a test game with my bro, my death guard list against his thousand sons. Pretty impressed by the book, didn't even feel like we were playing the same codex.. Forgefiend and maulerfriend performed pretty well. Oh and Typhus kicked a tzeentch DP's ass
Noise Marines are back in a big, big way. Between using swarms of Slaanesh marked BP/CCWCSM and Raptors as assault troops and Noise Marine weapons all ignoring cover, they are going to murder light infantry like it's cool. Losing Lash sucks a little bit, but the Slaanesh powers are pretty decent.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm just sad because for the longest time i've been saying "Man, thousand sons look cool, I'll wait for the new dex to balance them out so I can play a small detachment"
and then this made me sad. I think I'm abandoning the idea entirely.
I'm with you there...
I'm sort of disappointed in the options for a daemon prince... The only way I can see to give him instant death ability is giving him the murder sword, and even then its only against 1 enemy character.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:And again, Slaanesh armies got kicked again
Ah, what? How on earth did Slaanesh get kicked? Noise Marines are one of the better two cult troops now, the icon now grants FNP, Lucius got better; no I'm not seeing how Slaanesh got kicked again.
Should've been more specific.
Slaanesh HQ's and Lucius got awesome (HQ's in general are now all viable in some manner, even Huron)
Sonic blasters still suck and are still to expensive, blastmasters are now one per ten as well, just disappointed that I'm going to need to place bolters back on the models again as I was hoping for sonics to be a bit more decent.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:And again, Slaanesh armies got kicked again
Ah, what? How on earth did Slaanesh get kicked? Noise Marines are one of the better two cult troops now, the icon now grants FNP, Lucius got better; no I'm not seeing how Slaanesh got kicked again.
Should've been more specific.
Slaanesh HQ's and Lucius got awesome (HQ's in general are now all viable in some manner, even Huron)
Sonic blasters still suck and are still to expensive, blastmasters are now one per ten as well, just disappointed that I'm going to need to place bolters back on the models again as I was hoping for sonics to be a bit more decent.
Really?!! Ignoring cover with ap5 weapons that can get 3 shots per dude is crap?! Feth, all those poor b ard IG players who've been cowaring behind Aegis Lines and going to ground and then using their Orders to still shoot... Yep, they're totally not whining already about our ability to just laugh at their cover and wipe out whole Platoons in one go!
And while sure, the Blastmaster needs 10+ to take one, it's still an ap3 blast marker that ignores cover!
I fail to see how this is 'bad' in any way. (if you can't understand why you need 10+ to field blastmasters, then just do us a favour and go play Newcrons or GK's since you're looking for a 'win button')
I dread to think what 'decent' Sonic Blasters would be to you.
Well.. apart from taking apropriate marks, cult troops and special characters not really.. Though there's plenty of options to make themed lists for most of the legions. Alpha legion not so much though.. Most I can think of is the warlord trait that let's you infiltrate d3 infantry units
Nothing I've seen lends itself towards an alpha legion army in particular, Alpharius. There's a random warlord trait for infilitrating, but chosen no longer have it. I guess cultists are a decent thing for alpha legion though?
Word Bearers looks doable to me. Dark Apostle, Cultists and Chosen/possessed, Daemon Allies. Done.
Da Boss wrote: Nothing I've seen lends itself towards an alpha legion army in particular, Alpharius. There's a random warlord trait for infilitrating, but chosen no longer have it. I guess cultists are a decent thing for alpha legion though?
Word Bearers looks doable to me. Dark Apostle, Cultists and Chosen/possessed, Daemon Allies. Done.
You can take a counts-as Huron Blackheart for Warlord; he always gets the infiltrate thingie.
Is it really true that Chaos Terminators only can switch either the Power weapon OR the twin-linked bolter to another weapon?
Is it really true that the Maulers and Obliterators are not Fearless any more?
Chaospling wrote: Is it really true that Chaos Terminators only can switch either the Power weapon OR the twin-linked bolter to another weapon?
Yup
Is it really true that the Maulers and Obliterators are not Fearless any more?
Yup, and Ld8 to boot.
A lot of truly unnecessary changes in those units.
There's some nice changes in many units, but a lot of inexplicable ones that look like change for it's own sake, and not in the units that could actually use it.
-Loki- wrote: They won't, simply because the cultists come on 2 'common' sprues, which include a bolter Chosen, a Stormbolter Deathwing, 4 autogun cultists and 4 autopistol/ccw cultists.
To release them as a standalone box, they'd have to recut a whole mold. If they were planning to release them separately, they'd have done them on their own individual sprue to get around making a second expensive mold for them.
Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR. Plenty of more detailed marine and ork kits available despite the sprues in AoBR as well. The set up of the DV sprues is limited only for inclusion in the DV box. Nothing stops GW from offering a decent multiple part kit for cultists separately from the DV box. In fact I *expect* that such will be the case. They are definitely part of the second wave because right now they want to encourage the sale of the DV boxed set. After that, as a baseline troops unit in the codex they will get their own boxed set.
Anyone else notice that the Dread's autocannon option is the shorter-ranged "Reaper" type as opposed to the straight TL autocannon of the other dreads?
A lot of truly unnecessary changes in those units.
There's some nice changes in many units, but a lot of inexplicable ones that look like change for it's own sake, and not in the units that could actually use it.
Strange... I'm with the opinion that most people who make the choices are not stupid at all, even if it would appear so, we just don't know what reasons and goals they had, when they took the decisions they took. But in this case I'm extremely curious about what GW thought they would achieve of positive things which would outweigh the anger they inflict to Chaos players who have to do something with all their Chaos Terminators which can't be used, only giving Daemon Weapons to models with the mark of Khorne and making a kind of respected and awesome fluff-wise model, the Obliterator, as scared of battle as Guardsmen. GW really doesn't want my money. Or maybe I'm just too old for this.
I am not, by any means, a hyper competitive player, but I believe this dex is powerful and balanced, there are some really cool, fluffy armies, WHICH CAN STILL COMPETE. Nothing is super OP or OTT, it is all balanced and fair, everything will kick ass on the things it is supposed to. I am not a Chaos player, nor have I been outside of Vassal, but it is tempting because this dex is SO much better for fun, fluffy lists.
Vaktathi wrote: Anyone else notice that the Dread's autocannon option is the shorter-ranged "Reaper" type as opposed to the straight TL autocannon of the other dreads?
:/
That's something that I assumed was the case with the old codex, but I was wrong. Interesting decision. It makes them feel more like a big, overgrown infantry unit than a vehicle to me, especially with them having a power fist instead of a dreadnought CCW. I know that's not the case, but that's the impression that I get from them now.
As a Thousand Sons player (if I can even be called a player when the army spends 10x more time on the shelf than on the table) I'm pretty disappointed. The army as a whole is still awful. The cult unit is awful. The additions to the book don't really feel Tzeentchy. The Magnus Scroll is awful even if you can, in theory, get the other schools from it. Demon Princes are awful. Defilers are awful. Havoks got the SW treatment (what a coincidence...).
That said, Ahriman is amazing now for the first time in a long time. Sorcerers with 2+/3++ and murder blades could be fun.
Ahriman, Sorc, 2 units of 9 thousand sons, 3 units of cultists, and some havoks/oblits will probably not be awful. But wouldn't really be fun either.
Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR.
Your argument would make a lot of sense if the Deffkoptas actually did get their own box, which they didn't.
The brute does only get a reaper autocannon, but it only costs 5 pts for it and comes with an extra attack, for the same price as a loyalist dread I think it's better
mauzer wrote: The brute does only get a reaper autocannon, but it only costs 5 pts for it and comes with an extra attack, for the same price as a loyalist dread I think it's better
Where's the extra attack coming from? As far as I can tell it's only got 2A, same as loyalist dreads, unless I'm missing something...
Something I noticed earlier today: a squad of 5 plague marines can have up to two flamers/meltaguns/plasma guns/plasma pistols. The champion can also take a combi for a third. That's a whole lot of firepower from some really tough marines
Robbietobbie wrote:Well.. apart from taking apropriate marks, cult troops and special characters not really.. Though there's plenty of options to make themed lists for most of the legions. Alpha legion not so much though.. Most I can think of is the warlord trait that let's you infiltrate d3 infantry units
Da Boss wrote:Nothing I've seen lends itself towards an alpha legion army in particular, Alpharius. There's a random warlord trait for infilitrating, but chosen no longer have it. I guess cultists are a decent thing for alpha legion though?
Word Bearers looks doable to me. Dark Apostle, Cultists and Chosen/possessed, Daemon Allies. Done.
Thanks guys - that's fairly depressing information, but at least it saves me $50.
The difference is that the plague champion is free now. So it's 5 points less than it used to be to set up a minimum Plague unit for the combi-weapon tripletap. So plagues got a little more flexible, arguably buffed. Funny that the standout Troops choice of the 4e book wasn't the one that got whacked with the nerfbat. Berserkers managed to become worse and slow and purposeful is ever so bad in 6e for a pure rapid fire unit.
kronk wrote: What exactly are you looking for with regards to Alpha Legion, other than a named character?
This is probably what I'm interested in the most. Can someone please list all the sneaky options in the book? So far I know you can use a count-as Huron Blackheart in Alpha Legion colours, and that jump pack and terminator armour troops can deep strike, but what more? Are there seriously no other options for infiltrating or scouting other than Hurons special warlord trait?
So far an Alpha Legion army would use units like lots of cultists, some infiltrating chosen, lead by a count as Huron and perhaps a biker squad or two.
GreyHamster wrote: The difference is that the plague champion is free now. So it's 5 points less than it used to be to set up a minimum Plague unit for the combi-weapon tripletap. So plagues got a little more flexible, arguably buffed. Funny that the standout Troops choice of the 4e book wasn't the one that got whacked with the nerfbat. Berserkers managed to become worse and slow and purposeful is ever so bad in 6e for a pure rapid fire unit.
What is wrong with Berzerkers? The only problem with 1k sons is that they cannot fire overwatch, I am not sure what your issues are here..
kronk wrote: What exactly are you looking for with regards to Alpha Legion, other than a named character?
This is probably what I'm interested in the most. Can someone please list all the sneaky options in the book? So far I know you can use a count-as Huron Blackheart in Alpha Legion colours, and that jump pack and terminator armour troops can deep strike, but what more? Are there seriously no other options for infiltrating or scouting other than Hurons special warlord trait?
So far an Alpha Legion army would use units like lots of cultists, some infiltrating chosen, lead by a count as Huron and perhaps a biker squad or two.
Mark of Khorne is now strictly worse since it's Rage + CA. If the berserkers don't at least knock their target down to a couple models on the charge, they're likely to stall out and fail. And if you're charging someone with defensive grenades, like everyone's favorite Plague Marines, or if you multicharge, you get nothing from MoK. Berserkers are still a pure torrent CC unit and now get their additional attack in less circumstances.
No overwatch and the same tactical marine statline means that TSons will fall over to pretty much any charge. All S&P does for them is turn off overwatch since they don't have heavies and don't want to charge.
GreyHamster wrote: The difference is that the plague champion is free now. So it's 5 points less than it used to be to set up a minimum Plague unit for the combi-weapon tripletap. So plagues got a little more flexible, arguably buffed. Funny that the standout Troops choice of the 4e book wasn't the one that got whacked with the nerfbat. Berserkers managed to become worse and slow and purposeful is ever so bad in 6e for a pure rapid fire unit.
What is wrong with Berzerkers? The only problem with 1k sons is that they cannot fire overwatch, I am not sure what your issues are here..
kronk wrote: What exactly are you looking for with regards to Alpha Legion, other than a named character?
This is probably what I'm interested in the most. Can someone please list all the sneaky options in the book? So far I know you can use a count-as Huron Blackheart in Alpha Legion colours, and that jump pack and terminator armour troops can deep strike, but what more? Are there seriously no other options for infiltrating or scouting other than Hurons special warlord trait?
So far an Alpha Legion army would use units like lots of cultists, some infiltrating chosen, lead by a count as Huron and perhaps a biker squad or two.
What SHOULD an Alpha Legion army be?
Not someone that has crazed marines bluntly charging across the board, or someone using a lot of daemon engines or similar stuff.
My idea of an AL army should have many units outflanking, infiltrating, scouting or deep striking, with some cultists to hold down objectives, perhaps with some allied traitor guard units.
If I was making Alpha Legion, I'd use the vanilla marine dex and run lots of "legion operatives" in the form of scouts, with some veterans for the armoured marines. Ally with Guard for conscript cultists and so on.
kronk wrote:What exactly are you looking for with regards to Alpha Legion, other than a named character?
Well...
Lord Magnus wrote:
This is probably what I'm interested in the most. Can someone please list all the sneaky options in the book? So far I know you can use a count-as Huron Blackheart in Alpha Legion colours, and that jump pack and terminator armour troops can deep strike, but what more? Are there seriously no other options for infiltrating or scouting other than Hurons special warlord trait?
So far an Alpha Legion army would use units like lots of cultists, some infiltrating chosen, lead by a count as Huron and perhaps a biker squad or two.
Yes, I'd like to know this too! (I is part of the answer!)
Not someone that has crazed marines bluntly charging across the board, or someone using a lot of daemon engines or similar stuff.
My idea of an AL army should have many units outflanking, infiltrating, scouting or deep striking, with some cultists to hold down objectives, perhaps with some allied traitor guard units.
Sounds good!
Da Boss wrote:If I was making Alpha Legion, I'd use the vanilla marine dex and run lots of "legion operatives" in the form of scouts, with some veterans for the armoured marines. Ally with Guard for conscript cultists and so on.
Sounds like what I was leaning towards too.
And no, there really isn't a definitive answer as to what an Alpha Legion SHOULD look like as I'm fairly certain we're heading towards a pretty obvious split in the Legion which would account for a lot of the cortradicting things we 'know' about them - some will, in essence, be 'loyal', and some will be dyed in the wool lunatics...
I just know that I want to play 'my' version of them and the latest C: CSM doesn't look like it is the best option for that.
Lord Magnus wrote:
This is probably what I'm interested in the most. Can someone please list all the sneaky options in the book? So far I know you can use a count-as Huron Blackheart in Alpha Legion colours, and that jump pack and terminator armour troops can deep strike, but what more? Are there seriously no other options for infiltrating or scouting other than Hurons special warlord trait?
So far an Alpha Legion army would use units like lots of cultists, some infiltrating chosen, lead by a count as Huron and perhaps a biker squad or two.
Yes, I'd like to know this too! (I is part of the answer!)
Unfortunately, that is it from what i have seen when it comes to sneaky options warlord trait + deep striking.
A small part of me actually thinks it would be hilarious to put typhus and 4 terminators or 8 chosen in a land raider, drive up, let only typhus disembark and charge. Use destroyer hive that turn and let the chosen or termies join the combat next turn
@Alpharius and Grarg, you misquoted Lord Magnus, as it was actually I who said that
To be honest, I think the Renegades and Heretics list from The Siege of Vraks part one is the most accurate portrayal of what an Alpha Legion army list could look like. It's a great book(I own it), and the rules are also available from the FW website for free.
BUT If we were to represent AL with a vanilla GW codex, then what should it be? Vanilla and SW with guard allies sound like the best options to me, but I haven't read them myself.
This is what I've been thinking for army specifics for the Legions using the new Dex:
Alpha Legion: Huron (counts as an Alpha Legion Lord), lots of Cultists, Chosen (if they can infiltrate, I don't have the book to hand) and Deep Striking units to give the feel of attacking all at once.
Iron Warriors: Warpsmith, Daemon Engines, Marines both ranged and cc based (used as breachers), Cultists (used for cannon fodder - fluffy), Obliterators, Mutilators, Vindicators and Havocs. This army works really well in games of 2k or greater due to the extra Heavy Support.
Night Lords: Haven't worked it out yet. Could work well as a Kill Team though.
Word Bearers: Apostle, Cultists, Marines, Allied Daemons, Daemon Engines.
There are not hard and fast rules, but they are what I would follow.
Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.
Bonde wrote: Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.
Thats not a bad thing. He's actually a good character.
For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
Bonde wrote: Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.
The Terminator unit entry is a mistake, the actual wargear entry for terminator weapons allows both the ranged AND close combat weapons to be upgraded. I suspect that there will be an FAQ along shortly. Afterall as it is there probably isn't a legal Terminator squad on the planet.
This Codex is a far better representation of Chaos than the 5th ed one. Its not perfect, for example Lords with the MoN can't get FNP and some legions favoured tactics aren't explicitly represented, but given that this is a moden GW codex I would expect nothing more.
Palindrome wrote: The Terminator unit entry is a mistake, the actual wargear entry for terminator weapons allows both the ranged AND close combat weapons to be upgraded. I suspect that there will be an FAQ along shortly. Afterall as it is there probably isn't a legal Terminator squad on the planet.
Given how specific it is, I have a hard time dismissing it as a mistake. The FAQ will tell the tale.
Bonde wrote: Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.
Thats not a bad thing. He's actually a good character.
The only problem is when you want to field a fluffy Alpha Legion army, which really woulden't have a Red Corsairs lord as a leader. The obvious way is to do some heavy converting yourself, best bid is probably along the lines of the SM commander box set with some chaos bits.
Bonde wrote: Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.
Thats not a bad thing. He's actually a good character.
The only problem is when you want to field a fluffy Alpha Legion army, which really woulden't have a Red Corsairs lord as a leader. The obvious way is to do some heavy converting yourself, best bid is probably along the lines of the SM commander box set with some chaos bits.
I know.
We'll just have to grin and bear it.
But it really rankles when we need to take a freakin' Word Bearers Dark Apostle in order to make our cultists better!!!
Believe me. The list is pages long already. I'll send it in on Monday morning after spending the weekend actually playing with the rules to see what else crops up.
/e: Hmmm...take a squad of 10 CSM, give each one a hand weapon, Mark of Khorne, that already makes them have 4 attacks at S5 per model on the charge...40 S5 attacks at I4? Yes please. Add Icon of Wrath and you get 40 S6 attacks at I4 at the charge on a fearless unit. I'M SOLD.'.
The problem with such blender units is that they are really easy to screw over with a simple wedge formation.
Bonde wrote: Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.
Thats not a bad thing. He's actually a good character.
The only problem is when you want to field a fluffy Alpha Legion army, which really woulden't have a Red Corsairs lord as a leader. The obvious way is to do some heavy converting yourself, best bid is probably along the lines of the SM commander box set with some chaos bits.
I know.
We'll just have to grin and bear it.
But it really rankles when we need to take a freakin' Word Bearers Dark Apostle in order to make our cultists better!!!
Or you just make up your own model and explanation and use them as counts-as for dark apostles and huron. You can probably come up with something good
Palindrome wrote: The Terminator unit entry is a mistake, the actual wargear entry for terminator weapons allows both the ranged AND close combat weapons to be upgraded. I suspect that there will be an FAQ along shortly. Afterall as it is there probably isn't a legal Terminator squad on the planet.
Given how specific it is, I have a hard time dismissing it as a mistake. The FAQ will tell the tale.
Well, they did edit the LotD unit entry in the Smurf codex FAQ because the Sergeant model they released was actually illegal! (and the sculpter's would have easily had access to the rules since the LotD were rleased some months after the codex! )
So I guess there's a small glimmer of hope that if we cry and bemoan enough, GW might change the entry in the FAQ?!
I know my planned Termie squad is borked now... I was aiming for 1x paired lightning claws, 1x reaper cannon + power toy, 4x combi-flamer + power fist. Luckily for me I put aside my CSM's until *after* the new codex drop!
A couple of my friends who've been playing Chaos since way back when however... Well, let's just say they're not looking forward to the thought of having to re-arm 10-20+ Termies!
But then look to at our absolutely horribad termie kit. Under the current unit entry, you litterly have no choice in how to build the models, plus you're still missing a third of the options! If GW don't change things, then that kit is never going to be bought except for 10-year olds who don't know any better... No one who looks at the unit entry first will even think of wasting cash on that piece of crap kit.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:And again, Slaanesh armies got kicked again
Ah, what? How on earth did Slaanesh get kicked? Noise Marines are one of the better two cult troops now, the icon now grants FNP, Lucius got better; no I'm not seeing how Slaanesh got kicked again.
Should've been more specific.
Slaanesh HQ's and Lucius got awesome (HQ's in general are now all viable in some manner, even Huron)
Sonic blasters still suck and are still to expensive, blastmasters are now one per ten as well, just disappointed that I'm going to need to place bolters back on the models again as I was hoping for sonics to be a bit more decent.
Really?!! Ignoring cover with ap5 weapons that can get 3 shots per dude is crap?! Feth, all those poor b ard IG players who've been cowaring behind Aegis Lines and going to ground and then using their Orders to still shoot... Yep, they're totally not whining already about our ability to just laugh at their cover and wipe out whole Platoons in one go!
And while sure, the Blastmaster needs 10+ to take one, it's still an ap3 blast marker that ignores cover!
I fail to see how this is 'bad' in any way. (if you can't understand why you need 10+ to field blastmasters, then just do us a favour and go play Newcrons or GK's since you're looking for a 'win button')
I dread to think what 'decent' Sonic Blasters would be to you.
Most of the people I play against aren't IG, mostly 4+ saves in my local and the like so the AP5 No cover is worthless to me. Salvo's nice, probably gonna take at least one full squad to be on objective duty, but I probably would've taken them on all squads if they were 2 points rather then three.
I still don't know why the Khorne axe grants rage to a unit with rage, since it can only be taken by those with the Mark of Khorne it cannot be taken by the DP's who don't get rage.
Rampage wrote: Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.
I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.
Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.
Rampage wrote: Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.
I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.
Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.
Necrons were a good army before 6th hit. Whereas when they were first released the majority of people were thinking that they were an average Codex. In a few months time it will have been figured out how to use the Chaos Codex competitively and it won't be a mid-low tier army.
In fact, I'm going to quote myself saying that last part in my sig.
I don't like the fact they have (very close to) guardsman statlines. Cultists, in my opinion, should be no more competent than IG conscripts at best. Giving a bunch of civilians, criminals and assorted scum BS 3 and Ld 7 makes everyone else in the game seem a little bit less competent, especially guys like Guardsmen and Tau who I think get unfairly dismissed for not being as good as marines.
I don't like the fact that the only special option available for the champion is a shotgun (and it's not a good choice for those points). Couldn't he at least have mutations? Why don't the other guys get the option of shotguns? They hardly seem like rare weapons. Seems that option was only thrown in there for the DV model.
I don't like that they don't have any special rules to give them a unique role in the army. Surely Infiltrate would have been flavourful and let them actually be useful? As it is, they are just a way to spam anti-infantry firepower from behind the front lines... but basic CSM do that role pretty well with their bolters.
I think it's a great book, but I liked the last one too so YMMV. I play Black Legion without Cult troops or Cultists, we are the original badasses and have been represented well by the last 3 books. I can see how Legion specific fluff players might be a little run down after this book and the last one... but I think the variety is there with allies and counts as if you think outside the box a bit.
Abaddon and 40 Chosen are looking to be the core of my army at this point. Sprinkle in a Heldrake and my old school Nurgle Oblits I converted a few years ago and I'm good to go. I'm not a min max waac guy either though so I was hoping for a DE style variety book instead of a GK "give everyone something to cry about" book. My only beef is the Terminator entry is borked but hopefully it will be fixed in a FAQ, if not I'll just use them however I want in friendly games and move on.
Rampage wrote: Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.
I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.
Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.
Necrons were a good army before 6th hit. Whereas when they were first released the majority of people were thinking that they were an average Codex. In a few months time it will have been figured out how to use the Chaos Codex competitively and it won't be a mid-low tier army.
In fact, I'm going to quote myself saying that last part in my sig.
Several major core mechanics changed with 6th that boosted them relative to other armies however, flyer mechanics, night fight ubiquity, changes to make vehicles hilariously easy to kill while having more mitigation than most against such changes, etc.
The chaos book as is lacks the same sort of things, in fact it lacks the gimmickyness that makes the necron book strong almost altogether. I don't think it's a bad thing in and of itself, in fact I prefer books like that, but it does mean it won't have the same sort of ability on the table. It's a pretty straightfoward army, especially relative to something like the Necron codex that has awkward gimmicks in almost everything it does.
I admit I'm only looking at the codex from one side. Slannesh. But I think things are going to be good.
The number of blastmasters in my army is surely going to drop, but I think the number of doom sirens is going to skyrocket. I'm also taking as many psychers as I can to get the spell that treats other sonic weapons as one strength point higher and the spell that buffs one unit HTH wise. Thats S6 AP3 flamer templates and brutal HTH on HTH kitted marines or damonettes. Those are just going to be murder against pretty much anything. Add in some devistating S5 sonic blasters that don't allow cover and you have a really good crowd control unit.
I can see two units of noise marines with the FNP icons being wonderful objective sitters and still contributing to the fight everywhere.
I'm still trying to figure out a good way to get my damonettes onto the field, because 3 rhinos with durge casters seems awefully tempting to help let the ladies get the job done.
I see a lot of synergy in this codex. But its a Kelly codex where units have to work together. Its not a Ward codex, where something just stand out and scream OMG power. I expect to see some rather nasty combos show up once the majority of the player base starts experimenting.
Most of the people I play against aren't IG, mostly 4+ saves in my local and the like so the AP5 No cover is worthless to me. Salvo's nice, probably gonna take at least one full squad to be on objective duty, but I probably would've taken them on all squads if they were 2 points rather then three.
I still don't know why the Khorne axe grants rage to a unit with rage, since it can only be taken by those with the Mark of Khorne it cannot be taken by the DP's who don't get rage.
Not every meta is the same, suffice to say Emperors Children rake guard over the coals now with their basic weapon. If your facing majority 4+ saves than your looking at Necrons or Tau and there are a bunch of options now against them, dirge casters for starters spammed on rhinos. Warp Talons should auto win against initiative 2 Necrons.
By the same token Death Guard and The Thousand Suns do a stout number with marines. If you area is 3+ heavy then basic troops spamming veteran of the long war will melt so many faces. Havocs with flakk missiles will eliminate any stormtalon or storm raven in a matter of seconds.
From what I can tell the Daemon Prince can take the Khorne axe and benefit from the rage, which is the only point to the rule as currently written.
Several major core mechanics changed with 6th that boosted them relative to other armies however, flyer mechanics, night fight ubiquity, changes to make vehicles hilariously easy to kill while having more mitigation than most against such changes, etc.
The chaos book as is lacks the same sort of things, in fact it lacks the gimmickyness that makes the necron book strong almost altogether. I don't think it's a bad thing in and of itself, in fact I prefer books like that, but it does mean it won't have the same sort of ability on the table. It's a pretty straightfoward army, especially relative to something like the Necron codex that has awkward gimmicks in almost everything it does.
When you have a chaos space marine the same cost as a necron warrior there arent much in the way of gimmicks you need. A shooting chaos army is going to be plentiful and painful.
Most of the people I play against aren't IG, mostly 4+ saves in my local and the like so the AP5 No cover is worthless to me.
Given how easy it seems to be to get 2+ cover saves in sixth edition (Ruins + Stealth + Going to Ground, Defence Lines + Going to Ground, Stacking Camo Cloaks and Stealth, Shrouded, etc) I'd say that anything which igores cover has some use.
When you have a chaos space marine the same cost as a necron warrior there arent much in the way of gimmicks you need. A shooting chaos army is going to be plentiful and painful.
Sure, if you're just talking troops against troops, but between flyers, transports, SC gimmicks, crypteks, and more, there's a lot more going on. I'm not saying CSM's will be crushed, only that there's a lot more going on than just comparing basic grunts to basic grunts.
Initial tactical thoughts on the new dex after looking it over:
- Chosen are pretty good deal. 2 attacks base, have BP/CCW/Bolter standard (so 3 attacks always), and can take 5 special weapons. Add in marks and you can make them handle anything for not that many points.
- Abaddon makes chosen troops, so you can have 6 of these units toting 5 melta-guns each, damn. Eat your heart out coteaz spam, henchmen with T3 stats, I've got 6 units of 5 melta toting chaos marines ramming down your throat.
- Kharn is a beast again and yes, he has str.6, is AP 2, and strikes at Initiative! Slightly cheaper than before and not terribly survivable, but damn can he hit hard.
- Plague marines I still think are gold.
- Typhus makes cultists plague zombies for free. Ya, and you can make any amount of cultist units plauge zombies, dawn of the dead re-creation here I come.
- Huron balckheart is actually a good choice as he has good wargear that let's him basically do everything including be a psyker, and makes D3 units infiltrate, seems fluffy for an undivided list and I dare say will be the go to choice for Alpha Legion players.
- Very surprised on warp talons, and it is positive. They have the daemon special rule so they have a 5++ which will help save them when they deepstrike and can take marks. Not a bad price and when they can assault they melt anything but terminators.
- Very disappointed in terminators. Whether by design or mistake, you can only upgrade a terminators shooty weapon, or his melee weapon, not both. So basically all my termies are now illegal, great.
- Defiler went from decent buy to not until next dex. It's not that it's stats are bad but for the basic defiler with autocannon/ccw we all had from the old dex it will cost a whopping 220pts. I know they were trying to sell the new daemon engines but damn that is a point nerf.
- Obliterators got kinda nerfed in that they can't use the same weapon two turns in a row though they did get an assault cannon mutation which is helpful. Still only T4 though they can take marks.
- I think the helldrake will turn out to be a must take. It's AV12, which is huge for flyers who mainly have to defend against the quad-gun and the new flakk missile which are both only strength 7. Best yet though, it's the only flyer that can vector strike which means you can scoot 36" across the board first turn, vector strike, hover next turn and lay that oh so nasty baleflamer template behind enemy lines.
Rampage wrote: Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.
I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.
Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.
Necrons were a good army before 6th hit. Whereas when they were first released the majority of people were thinking that they were an average Codex. In a few months time it will have been figured out how to use the Chaos Codex competitively and it won't be a mid-low tier army.
In fact, I'm going to quote myself saying that last part in my sig.
Several major core mechanics changed with 6th that boosted them relative to other armies however, flyer mechanics, night fight ubiquity, changes to make vehicles hilariously easy to kill while having more mitigation than most against such changes, etc.
Completely true, but that doesn't mean that it was a mediocre Codex in 5th edition, like a lot of us said it would be when the Codex first hit. I completely understand your point about the lack of gimmicks, but I still don't think that the Codex will be near mid-low tier.
Flakk missle launchers come at a hefty price >.>
15pts for basic launcher then an extra 10 for Flakk for something that is meh?
I think you might see one missle flakk in a unit and the rest being autocannons since they be dirt cheap and spammed like long fangs.
Chaos wasn't a bad codex in 4/5th edition. They were just too expensive.
I think the new book will make them competitive. Point values dropped on a lot of things. While some things won't work too well, others will shine.
I'm not happy about obliterators losing fearless and leadership, but that can be countered somewhat with marks.
I don't like the defiler getting upped in points by a huge amount, but I guess they want to sell the new heavy support models.
Terminators sound wacky, I was hoping to really up my terminator count, but if they are that bad I will just stick with my 10. Termicide still sounds viable.
Raptors and Bikers sound fieldable again being ultra cheap and getting HoW attacks doesn't hurt.
Noise Marines sound very nice with their new marks giving them feel no pain and the ability to ignore cover. So many armies seem to try to trick out units with cover saves, well a squad of noise marines will erase those quite easily. They also won't be slouches in assault.
Regular CSM are cheap and can be tailored for different jobs with marks and icons.
Plague marines are as good as ever.
The Dragon, while stupid looking, is probably the best flyer in the game right now.
With the nerf to obliterators I won't mind fielding more cheap havocs, and I have about 20 missile launchers from the old 1999 book when every five man vet squad could take two.
A lot of the new stuff sounds good. For me in particular, I think the Marks/Icon system is a brilliant idea (if applied consistently) and Nurgle, Slaanesh and God-worshipping Undivided appear well handled.
However, a lot of the stuff seems rushed or like 'amateur-ish' mistakes IMHO. Poor representation of some factions (Tzeentch and Alpha Legion spring to mind), a lack of Drop Pods or Predator/Land Raider variants, limited Daemon weapons, still expensive Reaper Autocannons etc. all disappoint me.
I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...
So far, 8th edition has had no 'uber book that just curbstomps everything else. It's actually pretty damn balanced, and overall, there's very little power creep between the percieved weakest book (Tomb Kings) and the percieved strongest book (Ogre Kingdoms).
I hope 40k is going to head in this direction with the new 6th ed codices, and judging by what we now know with Chaos Marines, it seems like that is GW's intention.
There's no real 'winning choice' in the new book that's head-and-shoulders beyond any other unit, while aside from the Termie feth-up, (which hopefully will be FAQ'd back to what it should be), there's no real outright crappy dud units.
Every unit has a place and with the right composition, every unit can be useful. I'd say that a huge win!
The main problem will be the last couple of 5th ed books that almost certainly won't get a looking at until well down the road potentially monkeying things up, unless they become such a massive problem that GW has them jump to the front of the line. (ala WoC & Lizardmen which are rumored to be up for re-do soon, despite being only 4 years old!)
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...
Puscifer wrote: Has anybody realised how overpowered Abaddon is?
He is just crazy. His points are way too low for his effectiveness.
D6 + 7 attacks on the charge at str 5 ap 2 or D6 + 6 on the counter charge with Drach'nyen.
With the Talon of Horus, he gets 7 str 8 shred attacks at ap 3 on a charge and 6 on counter attack.
Both of these are at initiative 6.
The guy is an absolute beast.
Oh and he makes chosen troops.
What a bargain.
He was like this in the old book. The month where the new FAQ hit him upside the head is the only thing that diminished him. Hes just like Draigo/Lysander/ect; hes the core of your deathstar. He still dies in 24 lasgun wounds like always.
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Far Seer wrote: Does the codex make CSM feel like 'marines with spikes' or are they substantially different now?
Eh different enough, the models certainly have diverged unless your going for just boots on the ground in metal bawkes. The rules are pretty sufficiently different now for many units.
The Codex looks really solid to me. No it isn't over powered, but THANK GOD. We don't need to keep ramping up codex power, we need to balance them out. I hope this is a sign of that balance coming around. Chaos definitely got buffed in this and got some cool new toys. I feel like most of the people (but not everyone) who are complaining just were expecting something stupid broken.
So my questions are:
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
How did Slaanesh get nerfed? Noise Marines are 3 points cheaper (and 5 points cheaper with a Sonic Blaster). Lucius seems pretty brutal and while most mounts got more expensive the Slaanesh one got cheaper.
Maybe I missed something as I'm not a Chaos player but make sure I read up on all the armies. You guys got some new choices while you mostly got an price cut on a lot of things.
Experiment 626 wrote: I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...
So far, 8th edition has had no 'uber book that just curbstomps everything else. It's actually pretty damn balanced, and overall, there's very little power creep between the percieved weakest book (Tomb Kings) and the percieved strongest book (Ogre Kingdoms).
I hope 40k is going to head in this direction with the new 6th ed codices, and judging by what we now know with Chaos Marines, it seems like that is GW's intention.
There's no real 'winning choice' in the new book that's head-and-shoulders beyond any other unit, while aside from the Termie feth-up, (which hopefully will be FAQ'd back to what it should be), there's no real outright crappy dud units.
Every unit has a place and with the right composition, every unit can be useful. I'd say that a huge win!
The main problem will be the last couple of 5th ed books that almost certainly won't get a looking at until well down the road potentially monkeying things up, unless they become such a massive problem that GW has them jump to the front of the line. (ala WoC & Lizardmen which are rumored to be up for re-do soon, despite being only 4 years old!)
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...
Wasn't Daemons for 8th edition so horribly overpowered that it broke that entire edition? I remember it being so infamous that people were saying it made GK look tame by comparison and that it was the worst book Matt Ward has ever done.
Back on topic a bit, I do not like what this is foreshadowing. FIFTY DOLLAR CODEXES is insane, no matter how you slice it. I have a beautiful hardback book twice the size of a codex, filled with watercolors of WWII fighter aircraft. The paper is top knotch, the print is good and a decent size, and the book is extremely sturdy. It cost me a whopping 20 dollars. I defy you to figure out any sane reason why a codex with half the pages, half the size, and half the quality of the WWII book I own costs almost 2 and a 1/2 times as much.
This may not be a big deal to some, but I really think it's a sign that GW is truly losing it when it comes to how their prices should be set. It also does not set a good tone for how prices will go in the future. The 30 or so buck paperback codexes were a bit steep, but weren't completely insane. These hardbacks though are pushing it to the point where I'm afraid my eyebrows aren't just raised, they may just shoot off of my forehead and embed themselves in the ceiling. If they had a cheaper alternative, a "minidex" if you will, similar to how they did the mini 6th ed rulebook in Dark Vengeance, I'd be cool with it, but with no cheaper alternative, it's a little insane.
Also, in other news, after reading a PDF of the codex, the dragon flyer thing is growing on me slightly. Only fluffwise though. The model remains hideous. However, I would not be opposed to converting one and trying to match the badassery of how it's portrayed in the codex. It's a friggin dragon/pterodactyl daemonically possessed fighter aircraft where the pilot's soul has fused to become one with his machine, turning it into some hideous mix of machine and daemon. I will admit, that's a pretty good example of what chaos should be like.
I know he's always been very powerful, but Abaddon never had that many attacks though. At the most he could get 11 on a charge. Now he gets a steady stream of attacks with 13 being the maximum at ap 2.
On an average roll he's getting 10-11 attacks with any extras just being gravy. Oh and he has preffered enemy marines.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
Let me give you a perspective from an exclusive CSM player.
I've been playing Chaos for about two years. Now with this statement bear in mind, I never directly experienced what it was like to play with anything other than the 2007 5th Edition codex. The most I've done is glance at the older codices a buddy had laying around and play a few feth off game with those rules (which were phenomenally cooler than the ones in the 5th ed dex.)
I can't speak as to everyone else's evaluation of the codex on a whole. I know for quite some time I was miffed trying to run against Grey Knight, Necron and IG lists that were designed a certain way. Maybe it is a symptom that I do not strictly compete as much as I can or build the most intense tournament lists, or maybe it's because those codices are overpowered in certain matchups. I don't really care to say.
But, as a whole I am happy with the look of the new codex. Let me point out a few PLUSES that I have seen which tickle me.
Top Ten Good Things
1) Abaddon now comes with a significant army-influencing trait, aka Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) in a 12" bubble. This matches the rules certain other characters had which I was always jealous of, such as Vulkan He'stans ability to make all Melta+Flamers reroll. It makes him into a Leader rather than simply a close combat blender.
2) Obliterators can now be made into T5 models for just +1 point over their old price. They appear to have lost the Fearless rule, which may or may not be intentional, but I can mitigate that and accept it in exchange for my Blitz now being able to weather shots from Lances and Powerfists.
3) Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman and Lucius all seem to have obtained significant buffs in this edition. Their rules were brought well into line with other powerful characters in 6th and in Kharn's case especially his biggest trade off was turned from a deal breaker into a cute fluff mechanic that will no longer destroy entire squads in one turn of bad rolling.
4) Raptors and their cost was brought into more reasonable lines in comparison with Assault marines from other codices, and were also given a counterpart that can stand up to things like Vanguard veterans and Deathcompany (though their whole 6" blind mechanic is yet unproven in my book). In combination with the new rules for Jump infantry in 6th, it brought the entire unit type back into a level playing field that vies for my attention. In the last codex they never crossed my radar.
5) Characters & Aspiring champions which are not unique / named got access to a very nice and interesting array of options. If I am not mistaken I can now look at making Tzeentch terminator lords with 2+/3++, which is something I've been aching for ever since I realized Chaos didn't get stormshields. In the same vein I definitely appreciate the presence of Sigil, Chaos' equivalent to the Iron Halo (albeit pricy).
6) The Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and Heldrake are good additions to the codex and to the style of the entire miniatures lineup for 40k. I feel like they (along with the Hellbrute) are awesome looking minis and wanted to collect them even before I saw any rules. My only disappointment here is that I feel the Forgefiend is overpriced points wise, but play-testing will show whether or not that's a worthy concern.
7) The "fluff" of the Chaos codex is back in full swing with regards to at least the four main Cults & the Black Legion. While other Legions such as Iron Warriors, Nightlords and Alpha Legion have yet again been relegated to "paint it and find rules that work for you", the others are better presented than in the previous codex. I feel this particularly because I was a Black Legion player who ran multiple cult troop choices (Plagues, Berserkers, Thousand Sons) as part of my regular army. Under the new codex I can still use those units but not all of them can still be considered scoring, and far from leaving me disappointed this leaves me with a stronger sense of identity and does not significantly undermine my competitiveness or otherwise frustrate me when I build lists.
8) Although it is unrelated to the codex itself, I feel it is worth mentioning that I feel better about the game as a whole after 6th Edition landed and especially about the ability to include Codex: Daemons as allied units in my secondary detachment. I always felt rather cheated that CSM only got bland, generic daemons which while occasionally useful as one-trick-ponies never and I mean NEVER owned up to the awesome vibe that True Daemons enjoy. Now I can partake of whatever filthy deviltry I want and summon the REAL Mcoys in support of my Chaos-Worshipping Legions. After the White Dwarf adjustments I am especially fond of taking Horrors w/ Changeling and the Flamers, which point for point add the best anti-infantry shooting and suicide-bombs available in my list.
9) The addition of Flak-Missiles to the Havoks is much welcome. In fact I was talking with some buddies about why Missile Launchers didn't have a skyfire option or upgrade just days before I learned about this, and felt it was a great addition on Game-Workshop's part especially in light of how they are giving everyone new Flyer units.
10) In general I am pleased with the points adjustments and balancing tweaks done throughout the Codex. It may not strike the casual passer-by as being too important, but I cannot stress enough that alot of units were fixed and brought into line to a point where they became competitive and interesting. Raptors are among them, and Possessed, our general infantry choices and others. This isn't only because of point-reductions but because the rules appended to some of these units were made significantly more useful. Cheaper of raptors that can now hammer-of-wrath into terrain without testing, possessed that have close-combat specific mutations which never let you down regardless of flavor, and infantry choices that are among the best priced and most valuable MEqs in the entire game are *NOTHING* to sneeze at.
I loathe to see the look on someone's face when they realize that my army contains rules for Hatred and Preferred Enemy against the largest subset of players enjoying 40k; Space Marines. That includes the infamous Grey Knights and other codices like Ultramarines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Bring it the on. Let me show you just how much the Corpse-god doesn't care when I'm rerolling all hits in my initial assault phases and all 1s in Shooting and Assault against your entire fricken codex.
It's not only fluffy, it's almost just evil, because in a matchup against any of these codexes my army is going to be vicious and unforgiving in a way no one else will yet appreciate. On a Tuesday I can go from slugging it out with Necrons and that Friday completely eviscerate a poor, innocent little Iron Fists player just because I spend +1 point per model or happen to be using a character with a ridiculously awesome Warlord trait.
There are stark disappointments here and there, such as Terminators. They pretty much ignored the regular Vehicle line, even increasing the cost on the Land Raider inexplicably without adding any kind of PotMS equivalent. I feel they did this however in light of adding new and different support options, which, in addition to the existing lineup with units like Obliterators, creates a versatile and dangerous codex. I'm astounded that they fethed over daemon weapons the way they did, which inhibits the way people can build non-unique characters. However. . .
To me, its good enough, and I will enjoy the feth out of it.
Grey elder wrote: Flakk missle launchers come at a hefty price >.>
15pts for basic launcher then an extra 10 for Flakk for something that is meh?
I think you might see one missle flakk in a unit and the rest being autocannons since they be dirt cheap and spammed like long fangs.
Not so much. Missile Launchers were 20 points in the old codex. Now, they are 5 points cheaper and you can Flakk missiles for 5 more points than they currently (at least for 3 more days) cost. That's not a hefty price. That's not bad at all.
Let's take a quick look at some numbers for a 5 man unit (4 + squad leader) using Army Builder:
Blood Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 130 points
Dark Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 20 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 170 points
Space Marine Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 150 points
Space Wolves Long Fangs: 75 points. Each additional Long Fang is 15 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 115 points + Split fire
Chaos Space Marines Havocs: 75 points. Each additional Havoc is 13 points. Missle Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 135 points.
This puts Chaos Space Marines in the middle, cost wise, for 4 missile launchers. Until the DA and SM codices are redone, the only bitching people should do is about how ridiculously cheap Long Fangs are AND the fact that they get Split Fire for that cost. That's HUGE, especially when you put a Rune Priest with Living Lightning in the unit. CSM have nothing to complain about, especially if GW doesn't FAQ other codices to have Flakk missiles for a short time to boost sales of Havocs.
Assuming that everyone gets Flakk missiles in an upcoming FAQ, I can only imagine that price will be 10 for each model with Flakk missiles. CSM are still going to be in the middle of the pack.
The price isn't hefty at all. It's right about where it should be.
Grey elder wrote: Flakk missle launchers come at a hefty price >.>
15pts for basic launcher then an extra 10 for Flakk for something that is meh?
I think you might see one missle flakk in a unit and the rest being autocannons since they be dirt cheap and spammed like long fangs.
Not so much. Missile Launchers were 20 points in the old codex. Now, they are 5 points cheaper and you can Flakk missiles for 5 more points than they currently (at least for 3 more days) cost. That's not a hefty price. That's not bad at all.
Let's take a quick look at some numbers for a 5 man unit (4 + squad leader) using Army Builder:
Blood Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 130 points
Dark Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 20 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 170 points
Space Marine Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 150 points
Space Wolves Long Fangs: 75 points. Each additional Long Fang is 15 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 115 points + Split fire
Chaos Space Marines Havocs: 75 points. Each additional Havoc is 13 points. Missle Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 135 points.
This puts Chaos Space Marines in the middle, cost wise, for 4 missile launchers. Until the DA and SM codices are redone, the only bitching people should do is about how ridiculously cheap Long Fangs are AND the fact that they get Split Fire for that cost. That's HUGE, especially when you put a Rune Priest with Living Lightning in the unit. CSM have nothing to complain about, especially if GW doesn't FAQ other codices to have Flakk missiles for a short time to boost sales of Havocs.
Assuming that everyone gets Flakk missiles in an upcoming FAQ, I can only imagine that price will be 10 for each model with Flakk missiles. CSM are still going to be in the middle of the pack.
The price isn't hefty at all. It's right about where it should be.
Havoks are only in the middle if you compare ALL devastators. It's widely known that vanilla and especially DA devastators are massively over priced. Ruling those out, Havoks are the most expensive, even more-so then BAdevs, which are borderline. Slap another 40 points on them and you are up to a staggering 175. I don't see how they can possibly be competitive at that cost. Chaos also lacks divination, so you can't even get prescience can slap it on a higher strength weapon and try to take out vehicles via re-rolls.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm just sad because for the longest time i've been saying "Man, thousand sons look cool, I'll wait for the new dex to balance them out so I can play a small detachment"
and then this made me sad. I think I'm abandoning the idea entirely.
They might be pricey, but honestly if you use them right they can be well worth it. Especially when you consider how many space marine codices they are. If you treat them like a standard space marine you will do poorly with them. Get unique with them. Throw them in situations where their 4++ is being used to its maximum effect. If you get to pick where your objectives go throw some in open territory and make them fight your thousand sons without cover for it. Use slow and purposeful to your advantage; they are one of the only units that can rapid fire rounds and then assault in cc, (there better cc then you think). Honestly the aspiring champion might have taken a nerf, but he definitely got better in cc in the new edition.
Carnage43 wrote:
Havoks are only in the middle if you compare ALL devastators. It's widely known that vanilla and especially DA devastators are massively over priced. Ruling those out, Havoks are the most expensive, even more-so then BAdevs, which are borderline. Slap another 40 points on them and you are up to a staggering 175. I don't see how they can possibly be competitive at that cost. Chaos also lacks divination, so you can't even get prescience can slap it on a higher strength weapon and try to take out vehicles via re-rolls.
Hmmm, so ignore a group of comparable units because it kills the argument that Havocs are too pricey? Right. Again, it's FIVE points more per model than you're currently paying for a Skyfire option.
I'll give you that DA Devastators are incredibly overpriced. That many points is ridiculous. However, if DA want Flakk missiles and don't or won't use allies, that's the price they are going to pay for them when the option opens up. Totally relevant.
Who knows when C:SM are going to get a codex update. They are, however, likely to get Flakk missiles soon, so it's actually pertinent to compare ALL of the units that are going to have access to the option instead of picking and choosing what to compare so that it fits your argument better.
The fact of the matter is that when you compare the Space Marine type units that will get Flakk missiles, CSM is the middle of the road and will be the only codex with access to Flakk, unless there's an FAQ update on the day of release. Would you be surprised if GW doesn't do an FAQ update? I wouldn't be.
I've read the codex. There are a A LOT of unnecessary "sky is falling" bullsh simply because CSM aren't getting the "GK in 5th edition" level codex.
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sfshilo wrote: Terminators have marks.....not sure why people are saying this..
Also...havocs are the best unit in the codex Imo. Can take a mark, four plasma guns and have two close combat weapons. Holy cow.
While I can't agree that they are the best, they are definitely one of the best. I made my point about ML, but they have plenty of good options. The lascannon has come down in price, 10 points for an autocannon, 15 for a plasma cannon. Havocs will definitely be a must include for me in most lists.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
they are one of the only units that can rapid fire rounds and then assault in cc, (there better cc then you think)
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
Oblits don't seem nerfed to me. I don't mind the loss of fearless because they are small units anyway, and now they can go to ground in area terrain (or a fortification) for that +2 to their cover save. Plus they can be t5 now... t5 plus 3+/2+ cover save means they don't have to live in fear of lascannons anymore. And they got twin linked stuff they can still fire if they do that.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
Uh the 3-4 and 5-6 powers are both good, meaning that they are likely to get a decent power. And the sorcerer is part of the squad and got cheaper... so the squad is cheaper.
Plus a squad is technically 2 points cheaper before the psyker would take a power in the 4th Ed codex. That's 1/5th of Meltagun! Plus Boon of Mutation has only a 1/6 chance of doing a wound on a normal CSM where as he will probably get some slick power (Imagine getting to turn that normal 'ol CSM sergeant into a Daemon Prince, how slick would that be?!) So the 1-2 roll isn't completely worthless like a lot of people are making it out to be.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
I'm sure many people are retroactively beautifying the OLD CODEX BEFORE GW RUINED IT every edition, but Thousand Sons never had the BP/CCW.
Uh the 3-4 and 5-6 powers are both good, meaning that they are likely to get a decent power. And the sorcerer is part of the squad and got cheaper... so the squad is cheaper.
Due to being Mastery Level 1 he cannot get the 5-6 power as its Warp charge 2, so he will re-roll to get 1-4
Maybe it's not as bad, but it seems that way from a base study.
I'm sure many people are retroactively beautifying the OLD CODEX BEFORE GW RUINED IT every edition, but Thousand Sons never had the BP/CCW.
*Checks* ...
In my defense I was more of a Noise Marine player than a Thousand Son, I swore all of the cult units had it.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
In the Chaos Codex on the Psychic Powers page it says models with the Mark of Tzeentch may use two powers per turn. In the new rulebook it says that, in the absence of a declaration of Mastery Level your Mastery Level is how many powers you can use per turn. An Aspiring Sorcerer is a Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch, so he can use two powers per turn. Therefore, he is Mastery Level 2. He could only take one power, as the FAQ only allowed him to trade powers he bought for rolls and he could only ever buy one, but he was still Mastery Level 2. Now he isn't.
And yeah, the only one who ever had BP/CCW was the Aspiring Sorcerer. The Rubrics were Boltgun/CCW, which is obviously not quite the same.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
I believe the suicidal power doesn't have to be used on yourself. Because you roll for powers before the game starts, and i am assumnig you took a sorcerer to make the thousand sons troops, just stick the sorcerer with the unit that rolled gift of mutation (i think that is what it is called, not sure). That's still not great, but thousand sons are SandP so giving a sorc termy armour (correct me if i am wrong, but im assuming they can still take that) and you can have a sorcerer who has the potential to get really beastie.
Or maybe you have a chaos lord that could use those buffs. Give him the ap 3 flamer thing, daemon weapon and just throw buffs on to him until you get a nice shootie/melle unit that can walk off a direct hit from a vindicator.
Honestly, i think chaos (maybe not chaos, but tzeench, god of change) should be a hit/miss army, it kinda fits their fluff. Idk, but giving my lord/ sorc instant death causing weapon, flesh-bane, eternal warrior, and stat boosts and doing it every turn seems good to me, even if I have a small chance of being turned into a spawn, or taking a wound.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
I believe the suicidal power doesn't have to be used on yourself. Because you roll for powers before the game starts, and i am assumnig you took a sorcerer to make the thousand sons troops, just stick the sorcerer with the unit that rolled gift of mutation (i think that is what it is called, not sure).
They're talking about Aspiring Sorcerers, which are sergeant upgrades for Rubric squads. So you sort of can't move them around squads.
He's talking about adding an HQ Sorcerer to a Thousand Sons unit, and then using the Aspiring Sorcerer who rolled the mutation spell to cast it on the HQ. Which is possible, as it's a single character within 3" for the target.
Without the actual table in front of me, or the in depth rules for the Gift, I can't say one way or another if it would be worth doing. I suspect, if you intended to do it all along, then you could certainly make it work that way. But if it wasn't your plan, I think it becomes far less useful.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
I can't find any fluff anywhere regarding the use of a large number of Raptors. Raiding forces, yeah, but never aerial assaults.
Well, the lash was the only broken item in the former codex. Its good that its gone. Now I'll unshelve my EC army. Its seems that sonic blasters and blastmasters get more useful in the new codex.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
I can't find any fluff anywhere regarding the use of a large number of Raptors. Raiding forces, yeah, but never aerial assaults.
Raptors can be considered raiding forces, quick getting in, and quick getting out.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
I can't find any fluff anywhere regarding the use of a large number of Raptors. Raiding forces, yeah, but never aerial assaults.
Raptors can be considered raiding forces, quick getting in, and quick getting out.
I'm kinda disappointed they did nothing with the actual vehicles though. Same old vindicator/predator/land raider, and the options don't make them anymore appealing compared to the bloated heavy slot.
- Defiler went from decent buy to not until next dex. It's not that it's stats are bad but for the basic defiler with autocannon/ccw we all had from the old dex it will cost a whopping 220pts. I know they were trying to sell the new daemon engines but damn that is a point nerf.
This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Back on topic a bit, I do not like what this is foreshadowing. FIFTY DOLLAR CODEXES is insane, no matter how you slice it. I have a beautiful hardback book twice the size of a codex, filled with watercolors of WWII fighter aircraft. The paper is top knotch, the print is good and a decent size, and the book is extremely sturdy. It cost me a whopping 20 dollars. I defy you to figure out any sane reason why a codex with half the pages, half the size, and half the quality of the WWII book I own costs almost 2 and a 1/2 times as much.
This may not be a big deal to some, but I really think it's a sign that GW is truly losing it when it comes to how their prices should be set. It also does not set a good tone for how prices will go in the future. The 30 or so buck paperback codexes were a bit steep, but weren't completely insane. These hardbacks though are pushing it to the point where I'm afraid my eyebrows aren't just raised, they may just shoot off of my forehead and embed themselves in the ceiling. If they had a cheaper alternative, a "minidex" if you will, similar to how they did the mini 6th ed rulebook in Dark Vengeance, I'd be cool with it, but with no cheaper alternative, it's a little insane.
Yep they lost it. I saw Tyranid Warriors price yesterday, 50$ equivalent, I mean wtf that's 3 little plastic guys. I agree about the codex as well, I will pay the price for my armies codieces only if the rest of the incoming books turns out balanced with it.
Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR.
Your argument would make a lot of sense if the Deffkoptas actually did get their own box, which they didn't.
Feel free to follow this link to the non-existent Deffkopta box that you can buy on GW's website:
Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR.
Your argument would make a lot of sense if the Deffkoptas actually did get their own box, which they didn't.
Feel free to follow this link to the non-existent Deffkopta box that you can buy on GW's website:
Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR.
Your argument would make a lot of sense if the Deffkoptas actually did get their own box, which they didn't.
Feel free to follow this link to the non-existent Deffkopta box that you can buy on GW's website:
Seriously? That model is old and predated the Assault on Black Reach starter set by a number of years. That models is nothing like the AoBR DeffKopta in any way. There is a reason people went Apey over the AoBR DeffKoptas... they were 1/3rd the price of this model and 10x the quality.
Please know what you're talking about before you make definitive statements like "Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR." You're 100% wrong in this case.
I do hope that there is an excellent Chosen plastic kit in wave 2.
[quote=kronk 480003 4836423 489f733d4807afe96ca5ceb3ce6c14c1.pngSeriously? That model is old and predated the Assault on Black Reach starter set by a number of years. That models is nothing like the AoBR DeffKopta in any way. There is a reason people went Apey over the AoBR DeffKoptas... they were 1/3rd the price of this model and 10x the quality.
Please know what you're talking about before you make definitive statements like "Hardly. The DV sprues are for DV and have nothing to do with future kit releases. Deffcoptas eventually got their own box, but were part of the combined sprues for AoBR." You're 100% wrong in this case.
I do hope that there is an excellent Chosen plastic kit in wave 2.
Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time
40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.
So, one thing I'm curious about, but does anyone else find it hilarious that if your cultist champion turns into a spawn, it's a good thing? The spawn is LD 10, and fearless. If he doesn't have to leave the unit, you suddenly have a mob of fearless cultists with a fairly strong close combat unit thrown in.
Hilariously situational, but I think it's worth mentioning just because the Cultist champion is so bad, turning into a spawn is a GOOD thing
Also I think people are overlooking a lot of awesome stuff. Chaos Bikers drop 13 POINTS! That's HUGE! You can now take Bikers with the Mark of Nurgle for only one point more than the C:SM version. I think that's a pretty uneven trade for ATSKNF in CSM's favor.
Also I know everyone overlooks Chaos Spawn because it used to suck HARD, but now they're 10 points cheaper and are better. They really are something to be considered now
I think that once people chill out that their codex isn't OP you're going to start finding a lot of these things you would never consider before as viable options
MrMoustaffa wrote: So, one thing I'm curious about, but does anyone else find it hilarious that if your cultist champion turns into a spawn, it's a good thing? The spawn is LD 10, and fearless. If he doesn't have to leave the unit, you suddenly have a mob of fearless cultists with a fairly strong close combat unit thrown in.
Hilariously situational, but I think it's worth mentioning just because the Cultist champion is so bad, turning into a spawn is a GOOD thing
He counts as a separate unit when he transforms. Not like a Cultist champion was going to be winning any challenges anyway.
felixander wrote: Also I think people are overlooking a lot of awesome stuff. Chaos Bikers drop 13 POINTS! That's HUGE! You can now take Bikers with the Mark of Nurgle for only one point more than the C:SM version. I think that's a pretty uneven trade for ATSKNF in CSM's favor.
Also I know everyone overlooks Chaos Spawn because it used to suck HARD, but now they're 10 points cheaper and are better. They really are something to be considered now
I think that once people chill out that their codex isn't OP you're going to start finding a lot of these things you would never consider before as viable options
How about Slannesh Bikers? In the 3.5th ed codex, they had access to sonic blasters for +2 pts.
wuestenfux wrote: How about Slannesh Bikers? In the 3.5th ed codex, they had access to sonic blasters for +2 pts.
They can't, and this is probably the one thing that really disappoints me: the lack of any sort of Mark-specific weaponry that can be taken by other specialist troops. My Slaanesh Havocs demand Blastmasters!
wuestenfux wrote: How about Slannesh Bikers? In the 3.5th ed codex, they had access to sonic blasters for +2 pts.
They can't, and this is probably the one thing that really disappoints me: the lack of any sort of Mark-specific weaponry that can be taken by other specialist troops. My Slaanesh Havocs demand Blastmasters!
While you're not going to get everything you wanted, this is one thing that would have been really cool to see.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even just upgrades to make Heavy Bolters better woulda been nice
Inferno Heavy Bolters
2+ Poison Heavy Bolters
and ChainAxe Throwing/Blood Spewing/Skull Chucking Heavy bolters?
wuestenfux wrote: How about Slannesh Bikers? In the 3.5th ed codex, they had access to sonic blasters for +2 pts.
They can't, and this is probably the one thing that really disappoints me: the lack of any sort of Mark-specific weaponry that can be taken by other specialist troops. My Slaanesh Havocs demand Blastmasters!
In fact, Slaanesh Havocs were able to take blastmasters. I've a bunch of those Havocs on my shelf.
wuestenfux wrote: How about Slannesh Bikers? In the 3.5th ed codex, they had access to sonic blasters for +2 pts.
They can't, and this is probably the one thing that really disappoints me: the lack of any sort of Mark-specific weaponry that can be taken by other specialist troops. My Slaanesh Havocs demand Blastmasters!
In fact, Slaanesh Havocs were able to take blastmasters. I've a bunch of those Havocs on my shelf.
I have some of the really old ones, too, with the stubby, double-barrelled Blastmasters. At least I can field them as Autocannons or Lascannons!
daedalus wrote: So, I just got a peek. Is it too early to start crying about how the sky is falling with Forgefiends? 175 points for 8 S8 shots? How will we live?
I take it you are being sarcastic, especially given your former stances over on Warseer (assuming it's the same Daedalus)?
Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time
40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.
I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.
The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?
Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time
40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.
I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.
The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?
Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.
I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.
Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.
I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.
daedalus wrote: So, I just got a peek. Is it too early to start crying about how the sky is falling with Forgefiends? 175 points for 8 S8 shots? How will we live?
I take it you are being sarcastic, especially given your former stances over on Warseer (assuming it's the same Daedalus)?
Different daedalus, sounds like the same stance however.
Seriously though, people were throwing fits about Psyflemen. I just find it interesting that people are not up in arms about this.
Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time
40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.
I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.
The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?
Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.
I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.
Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.
I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.
I think that what Plumbumbarum is trying to get across is that they have made the defiler an undesirable unit to have in an army due to high points cost to sell alot of the new Daemon engines, which in my opinion look like utter gak.
I for one think it's really annoying that they have done this, even though I don't play competitively doesn't mean I don't want units at a reasonable points value for what they do. AV 12 is not worth 220 points, even with the battle cannon. Defilers were easy to kill back in 5th ed but were pretty cheap for what you got. Defilers are pretty easy to kill now and not so cheap, are they the same price as the chaos land raider now?
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.
I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.
Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.
I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.
I dislike 'rage' posts of any variety (quitting, ranting, whatever) as much as the next person - and would claim myself to be a very calm forum member - and I agree that they have no real place in a discussion; I would never argue otherwise.
However, what I ultimately said was that the designer of a Codex should not really be making 'meh' units worse IMHO; it's just poor design and fulfilment of their job, whether the majority play competitively or not.
On which note, it could be argued that if most players apparently "don't care how powerful the unit is" - a claim I disagree with btw - then why should they not cater for those who do? If they're the ones that actually care about the rules - and the others, above, don't - then surely the rules should be designed for them? However, I'm not going to get into a JFF vs. WAAC debate, which is what it would probably turn to. I would also expect it's not just tabletop gamers who make such sweeping or dramatic claims and that that is an overgeneralisation, but I don't frequent other forums to truly comment.
daedalus wrote: Different daedalus, sounds like the same stance however.
Seriously though, people were throwing fits about Psyflemen. I just find it interesting that people are not up in arms about this.
Uh, really? Maybe people are not up in arms about the forgefiend because it is garbage compared to the psyfleman? The forgefiend only gets 4 hits per turn over the 3.6 the psyfleman puts out (1.3 vs 1.2 vs flyers), and costs 175 over the psyfleman's 135. The forgefiend is also gigantic compared to the dread making it much harder to get good cover, which means it NEEDS the 5++ built in just to make it back to level footing with other vehicles. The saving grace is the once per game reroll, which is actually pretty good. It's also a shame that the +1str -12" range plasma cannons suck so much, because they are the weapon option that they managed to sculpt in a way that looks more daemon-engine than digimon.
ph34r wrote: Uh, really? Maybe people are not up in arms about the forgefiend because it is garbage compared to the psyfleman? The forgefiend only gets 4 hits per turn over the 3.6 the psyfleman puts out (1.3 vs 1.2 vs flyers), and costs 175 over the psyfleman's 135. The forgefiend is also gigantic compared to the dread making it much harder to get good cover, which means it NEEDS the 5++ built in just to make it back to level footing with other vehicles. The saving grace is the once per game reroll, which is actually pretty good. It's also a shame that the +1str -12" range plasma cannons suck so much, because they are the weapon option that they managed to sculpt in a way that looks more daemon-engine than digimon.
Hadn't seen the model yet. Having a look at it, I see what you mean; it's a little big (not to mention... goofy).
I also didn't realize that the reroll was only once per game. That changes things somewhat. I hardly think it's "garbage" though, even in comparison to the psyfleman. It's not bad, just maybe not something you take three of.
Skerr wrote: Has anyone seen the max number of cultists that can be taken in a unit yet?
Thanks.
35! Start with 10 (one of whom is a sergeant) and then you can add on 25
As for the Forgefiend, I really hope people don't bring them. The Reroll on Pen is gonna make it tough not loosing vehicles to it quickly... It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn
felixander wrote: It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn
As has been mentioned its re-roll is once per game. It will still seriously inconvenience AV 12 vehicles though, even flyers will get hit at least once on average. To be honest it looks like it has been costed quite well.
If the model was nicer I would seriously consider a Dark Mechanicus army.
felixander wrote: It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn
As has been mentioned its re-roll is once per game. It will still seriously inconvenience AV 12 vehicles though, even flyers will get hit at least once on average. To be honest it looks like it has been costed quite well.
If the model was nicer I would seriously consider a Dark Mechanicus army.
It's going to on average get 2 glances/pens per AV12 (without cover) that it shoots at. There's a reasonable chance one can and will put some hurt on a vehicle. With so many shots at a relatively low BS, there's a lot more room for variance than when you're only dealing with a couple shots.
So I've read through the codex, did some napkin math, and come to the conclusion that all the griping about CSM being underpowered is complete bunk. The price per unit and the plethora of options pretty much every single unit has access to is bananas. The potential to waste all of your points on a few squads is there, but if you don't dump all of your points you can outfield pretty much any other MEQ army. Their whole codex obliterates MEQ, their vehicles can restore hull points in more than one way, their havocs which are modestly priced can be given flak missiles. Their bikes are DIRT cheep even with mark of nurgle. T6 4/5++ 3+ anyone? Better warlord table you can roll on anyone?
The only problem with this codex is it has more tables than the campus cafeteria and will likely slow the already slow 6th edition down to a crawl.
Skerr wrote: Has anyone seen the max number of cultists that can be taken in a unit yet?
Thanks.
35! Start with 10 (one of whom is a sergeant) and then you can add on 25
As for the Forgefiend, I really hope people don't bring them. The Reroll on Pen is gonna make it tough not loosing vehicles to it quickly... It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn
Daemon engine is once per game so, only take one AV12 (w/o cover) for sure one turn, then it blows up with his AV 12
The only problem with this codex is it has more tables than the campus cafeteria and will likely slow the already slow 6th edition down to a crawl.
Perhaps if you have difficulty reading. The only remotely complex table is the Boon one and even thats not exactly taxing. Its more annoying that you now have to take the codex to games rather than simply your army list.
Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time
40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.
I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.
The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?
Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.
I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.
Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.
I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.
I think that what Plumbumbarum is trying to get across is that they have made the defiler an undesirable unit to have in an army due to high points cost to sell alot of the new Daemon engines, which in my opinion look like utter gak.
I for one think it's really annoying that they have done this, even though I don't play competitively doesn't mean I don't want units at a reasonable points value for what they do. AV 12 is not worth 220 points, even with the battle cannon. Defilers were easy to kill back in 5th ed but were pretty cheap for what you got. Defilers are pretty easy to kill now and not so cheap, are they the same price as the chaos land raider now?
Yes you're right, I'm not a tourney player and not sure if competitive as I fielded 3 carnifexes in 5th and still field them in 6th. Carnifexes are a great example of GW aproach btw, one might have bought 3 in 4th edition only to see them priced senslessly vs other units in the 5th edition codex and not really usable if you want to have anything close to equal chance to win games. It was not because the game changed and the new better game environment required that change, it was just to make your carefuly built and painted expensive models a handicap out of a sudden and to add insult to the injury, those were models that had previously been awesome to make you buy as many of them as possible. This is not respect for a consumer that's for sure.
Now, what is most important here, I paid for the codex, I paid for rules. Rules are meant to provide me a vehicle for fun, tactics, strategy, balance etc, not to sell fething models. If they want to sell models, they should up their quality, make awesome irresistible sculpts, attract new players etc Whenever I see paid rules made only to invalidate some armies or models and force people to buy without adding anything meaningful to the game - sake for the sake of change - I feel offended and treated like a fool. This is impundent crap made by shameless boors, guys so overconfident that they deserve a non literal slap rather than money. I wish them pirated to hell with their 50$ codieces and loosing so many customers that someone who cares for the game there fires the whole sales brigade at once and writes them opinions opening with words like sleazy and cheap. Shame btw as from what I see the codex looks balanced and reasonable also I'm sure the artwork is amazing, I don't think it's Kelly himself who's happy to crap on his work like that (only guessing though) but I'm tired of such low blows and am not willing to support it anymore.
That's the worse trait of GW, sacrificing rules quality for cheap salesmanship.
pretre wrote: What if there's a question about the rules? I mean, I know my main codexes backwards and forwards but sometimes you need to look something up.
Although for my part, I usually only play in my garage or at a tournament, so...
All I needed was on the printout or in the main rules. Its not as if the 5th ed 'dex was complex.
I just wanted to buy slaanesh wargear for my chaos lords....and I still can't.
They took infiltrate away from chosen....why?
Terminator champions have only 2 attacks
Chosen champions have only 2 attacks
If you are in combat when you get turned into a daemon prince, you are very likely to be killed due to not being able to be placed.
Possession doesn't protect passengers from stunned and shaken.
Land raider got more expensive...:why?
Daemon princes losing EW....I mean really? Just a huge slap in the face?
And abaddon has to choose between two weapons now....that sword doesn't seem like the kind of artifact that can sunder through a gate like in his fluff...
And how many ways are there to get hatred, just to make sure you wasted points buying it for your models?
Still no sacred numbers?
Noisemarines have to be 10 strong to get a blast master now?
The codex's best shooting units can't overwatch? (Sonic blasters, oblits, thousand sons)
And while people like to spout things like T6 bikes, it's not as simple as that. If you're a tzeentch player, then technically you really don't have access to those kind of units.
The only problem with this codex is it has more tables than the campus cafeteria and will likely slow the already slow 6th edition down to a crawl.
Perhaps if you have difficulty reading. The only remotely complex table is the Boon one and even thats not exactly taxing. Its more annoying that you now have to take the codex to games rather than simply your army list.
Learn to take a joke my snarky British friend.
You should always bring your codex and now you'll need to bring index cards and a pen to all of your competitive events to keep track of what model got what boon.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.
Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.
I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.
I'm commenting on the codex, posting my "CSM codex thoughts" to be precise. If it's the one that will make me rage quit, my rage comment is on topic and as valuable for a feedback as yours, imo.
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pretre wrote: @Plumbumbarum: "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence."
You think? I would prefer it to be true in case of GW, I love their game but for example that Carnifex ultranerf is hard to explain unless they do not playtest and write codieces drunk.
pretre wrote: What if there's a question about the rules? I mean, I know my main codexes backwards and forwards but sometimes you need to look something up.
Although for my part, I usually only play in my garage or at a tournament, so...
All I needed was on the printout or in the main rules. Its not as if the 5th ed 'dex was complex.
I'm not sure that's the point. I know that if I question my opponent on the rules of his codex, I want to see the codex, not his recollection of the rules, regardless of how well he knows it front to back. It came up in a tournament where two of my friends faced the same opponent who "knew his codex frontwards and backwards". They questioned him, he gave them the answer, and he was very wrong.
It's a courtesy to your opponents to be able to provide the codex, even if its not needed.
But hey, I don't have to play you, so it works out well.
parameters for writing a new codex.
We need to sell these new models. And the bread and butter guys must win. So get writing Cue defiler and landraider changes,
anything that can kill MEQ armies gets no overwatch.
Sorcerers are too strong, make them accept challenges.
No, base cost is lower than that. Defiler points cost did increase though. OTOH, it did gain Daemonforge and It Will Not Die. As for Land Raider, it got whopping 10 points more costly.
I never understood why they had it in the first place.
Back in the old, old dex you could buy veteran skills for your squads. Most of the chaos boons were old veteran skills, feel no pain, furious charge, infiltrate... They just got rid of veteran skills and piece mealed them out to different units. The old system was much better as you could customize your entire army.
You should always bring your codex and now you'll need to bring index cards and a pen to all of your competitive events to keep track of what model got what boon.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, one of the best news is that the codex provides cheap troops (Zombies) with FnP. Such an option is new in a MEQ codex.
Unfortunately you can only take 10 per unit due to the wording in their rules. They are not alowwed any other options and taking extra zombies falls under other options...
Hopefully this is a brainfart and will be fixed in next FAQ.
I am loving the Mace and Murder Sword though. DP was looking pretty bad until I saw they can take these.
Dp can be double strength and AP 1 (well 2, same diff) anytime he wants.
Chosen had infiltrate because they were adept at putting themselves exactly where they needed to be for the battle. But to be honest I too liked the previous system where you could customize your entire army.
"MY veterans have furious charge and counterattack, because they engage in close quarters"
"Well mine take heavy weapons and have tank hunters and siege specialists"
"Mine worship KHORNE, so they have the mark of Khorne and furious charge"
"Mine worship slaanesh and have acute senses"
It worked much better. This...:this is just crap. Absolutely worthless codex. I really expected good things from the author of the "everything is free, by the way there's no drawbacks" space wolf book.
As a Thousand Sons player , for the second time in a row , I'm utterly underwhelmed by this codex .
I'm liking the cheaper Sorcerors , but where was the "host of options" rumoured to be available for my Aspiring Sorceror ? Gift of Mutation and a slightly interesting pole ? And let's not get started on the Terminator weapon issue . I didn't spend all that cash getting the bitz needed and [badly] making headpieces for them only for 80% of them to be now illegal/not WYSIWYG .
On the plus side , I never owned a Defiler , any Obliterators or a Deamon Prince .
I think that the new Chaos 'dex is the only one without any units that can inflitrate (unless you use a special character or get lucky with your warlord roll).
Chrysis wrote: I don't know. One need only point at the Pyrovore to show that it's not a guarantee. Malice and Incompetence aren't mutually exclusive anyway.
I never said they were any good at it, only that it is something they try to do. In fact, it's often worse when a new unit is bad (the Pyrovore being a great example), as it means that a previous good unit has been made worthless and its apparent replacement is no good either.
Spellbound wrote: I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.
I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.
Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.
New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.
New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.
So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?
Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?
Yeah, I do not get why they made this salvo. Should have just been an assault weapon, like you need to aim with sound? At least now it's pretty clear what the role of these guys will be, sit back and shoot.
To be fair though, I find that a lot of times in 6E now, I don't shoot at units before I charge in any case because the ones in the front die and you get overwatched and don't get the charge.
The whole denies cover thing, now that is cool, and it makes sense that a sound weapon would get it. Especially with all the ADL shenanigans out there.
Also if you can give them preferred enemy marines, with abaddon or w/e that is decent as well...
Spellbound wrote: I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.
I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.
Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.
New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.
New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.
So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?
Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?
And you get it for 3 points where a Psycannon is 20.... so yes it's not going to be as good. PLUS you're comparing things to a stupidly overpowered Codex, so yes it's not going to match up (Thankfully). You're also getting the same model for 5 points left once you drop a Sonic Blaster. So if it gets worse but saves you 5 points, that's not terribly unreasonable. This seems like another case of "I didn't get everything I wanted" problems.
Spellbound wrote: I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.
I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.
Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.
New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.
New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.
So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?
Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?
Where are you getting that Salvo weapons can't be fired on overwatch? They are not blast or template weapons. They use the fires BS so it can be modified to a BS1.
I found nothing on pages 13 (snapfire), 21 (overwatch), and 52 (salvo) that prohibit firing sonic blasters on overwatch.
The largest nerf is the move and shoot. move +12" range is much more hampering than move +24" range. But maybe the no cover saves will make up for it. Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters are now pretty much relegated to objective sitters. A job that they probably will excel at. We will just have to find our move and shoot someplace else.
Just give me those Chaos Spawn (w/ MoN) in my Daemons army and nothing else and I'd be happy.
I got some Chaos DV on the cheap and had some old 'rines in a box. I am not digging this new 'dex even though I like the DV models. Probably going to trade them away for Tau, IG, or Eldar... I only play Chaos Daemons to kit bash my own ideas of what each unit looks like (See my Fateweaver in my gallery).
I have no real connection to the fluff outside of wanting some cool noise marines and TSONS. However, I'm not really feeling either unit.
Typhus + Zombies looks fun, but if you look at Typhus' rules, cultists cant take options. So not only can you not give them MoN in a Nurgle themed army,... but you ALSO CANNOT take more than 10 as adding models is also listed under "options". I hope that's just me (and others) being RAW losers and that gets FAQ'd so I can run 35 man deep zombies with Nurgle Bikers and Nurgle Chaos Spawn... It'd be so much stupid fun.
I must have been confusing it with the no charging restriction. Sorry, so many restrictions and penalties to my "upgrades" it's hard to keep track.
Psycannon is a 10 point upgrade, no?
Ignores cover is of limited use on a weapon that allows armor saves. The blastmaster is much better - but i need 10 noisemarines to get one! Pretty ridiculous
And yes, situationally, worse than a bolter. Like if you moved that turn. But not even that, why is it worse than the previous sonic blaster? Nobody took them before, so you're going to make them worse? How does that make any sense at all?
And yes, I'm comparing that 20 point sonic blaster marine to the 20 point stormbolter-toting, force weapon-wielding grey knight that laughs at him, wielding ATSKNF, anti-psychic rules, close combat strength buff, anti-deepstrike rule, and preferred enemy for daemons as well as anti-daemon/psyker grenades.
You're telling me that's an equal comparison? I'm pretty sick already of "well don't compare them to a GOOD codex..." that's exactly what I'm comparing them to - other, actually competitive codexes.
Chosen: 18 points. Compare him to a wolf guard, same cost, same attacks, cheaper and better wargear options, as many special and power weapons as there are models in the squad, ATSKNF, acute senses, counter-attack, ability to be made scoring by special HQ choice, option for terminator armour. Where are our terminator chosen? What exactly are they chosen for, anyway?
Why would Phil Kelly, after making the wolves, turn around and charge us 10 points per meltagun again? Lower our leadership? Take fearless and Ld 10 away from oblits? Limit their firing options? He'll give any old wolf lord the ability to become EW but strip it away from our daemon princes? Then make them cost more, as well?
I mean I WOULD say they're trying to sell new models, but they made the damn things armor 12 and cost way too many points! And the lasher tentrils on the maulerfiend reduce the attacks of friendly models, too!
The only "You totally need to buy THIS now" unit I see at all are bikes due to their lower cost. Everything else just became points-slowed or was freshly made already points-slowed.
Every army gets Meltaguns for 10 points, Wolves are an exception.
I didn't say don't compare it to a "GOOD" codex, I said don't compare everything to a stupidly over powered Codex. I'm sorry that a new Codex comes out and it's not unbelievably facepalm killy.
And yes, some armies get options you don't. Howw boring would it be if every army got the exact same options? And a lot of the changes are BALANCING the Codex, not just buffing it, which is what updates should be. Daemon Princes were the Must Take for every CSM list. Obliterators very heavily run the Heavy Support section too. What he did is he balanced things out so that you have viable options for every section rather than "OK well for HQ I have to take this, for Elites I have to take this, for Heavy support, etc".
ph34r wrote: It's like you're speaking another language. I don't really know what to say to you except "THREE SHOTS IGNORES COVER".
Yup
DE reavers are really going to hate this unit. (hell pretty much everything in the DE codex including vehicles is really going to hate this unit)
Orks inside a KFF are really going to hate this unit.
Ork bikers are really going to hate this unit.
Any Guard unit behind an ADL are really going to hate this unit.
Kroot in a forest are really going to hate this unit.
Frensian Wolves are really going to hate this unit.
Eldar pathfinders/rangers are going to hate this unit.
Its a S4 gun (S5 if the target gets smacked with one of the slannesh psychic powers first) that ignores cover. I can see so many things that this weapon can hurt that its not even funny. Volume of fire hurts. The ten noise marines that you need to get the blastmaster are going to put out 27 shots, 18 hits that wound most things on a 3-4. Thats not exactly wasted firepower regardless if it gets an armor save or not.
Honesly, for myself, I'm probably not going to field any Blastmasters. They were an awesome weapon when you could take them in groups. But sadly if your shooting the S8 template at something, the rest of the guns in the squad probably don't have a target (due to range or toughness).
I personally see my troops coming in the form of 2 six man sonic blaster squads to camp on an objective and then 2 - 3 more in rhinos with doom sirens, dirge casters, and HTH options to get to the choppy fun bits. I5 and FNP is a lot of fun in HTH.
Jayden63 wrote: I personally see my troops coming in the form of 2 six man sonic blaster squads to camp on an objective and then 2 - 3 more in rhinos with doom sirens, dirge casters, and HTH options to get to the choppy fun bits. I5 and FNP is a lot of fun in HTH.
This. Small units to just stand there and obliterate kroot/IG/gants. In a primarily shooting/midfield army like mine, the ability to get hordes out of cover without running over to them and punching them out is very appealing.
Different? How hard would it be, with all the super awesome "assault" units they've given us (in the edition of shooty rules all and assault is difficult to get to, btw), just to say this:
"The Chaos Legions do not follow the Codex Astartes, and have been known to extensively modify their equipment. Chaos Rhinos count as assault vehicles"
BAM, now chaos has something nobody else has. Now chaos can send their super deadly possessed and chosen into battle and actually be a force to be reckoned with, not pay 26+ points per model to still die like a marine and guarantee that they'll take a turn of fire plus overwatch from the enemy army.
That's just ONE change, a simple one, that would not only give chaos a different playstyle (assault, GO!) but wouldn't be overpowered. Up the cost of rhinos slightly, done deal.
And what's with "every 5, assault weapon. 10 or more, heavy weapon" what are we, Ultramarines? 1 per 5, 1 per 4 even. Encourage those larger than 10 squads, encourage the horde of traitors.
And the execution is terrible. Could they not say the spawn/prince created from the boon table stays in combat if it was in combat, like greater daemons used to? Now, if I take a lord with a powerfist, charge an enemy unit, let them pile in at their initiative, then kill their champion in a challenge and roll "daemon prince", I'm dead because my base is so large I can't be within 3" and outside of 1" of the enemy. Really? They never thought that through? Don't tell me a lone character shouldn't go after a unit because breaking the back of the enemy's mightiest champion while they watch is EXACTLY what chaos would do, and it's also exactly what any artificer-armoured imperial character can easily do to chaos units.
"Well, you couldn't get past my 2+ save, and I killed 3, so now I'll wipe out the other 17 models in a sweeping advance" yay....
Don't want to give us Blastmaster havocs? Fine, give us a blastmaster every 3 noisemarines. Now I can take fluffy squads of 6, 12, 18 and get several. Havoc-esque units in the troops selection.
"That's way too many blasts" Have you seen what Coteaz psyker spam can do? Dark Angels? Anyone with a few plasma cannons? It's nothing new and it would be another OPTION for "I want my army to look like this image in my head".
What about relentless combined with that new salvo sonic blaster? How cool would sonic blaster terminators or bikers be? Nope, that died in 3.5. Wouldn't want those units being too DIFFERENT now, would we?
And ok. I'll stop comparing it to the "stupid overpowered" codex. I'll compare to wolves instead.
Chaos mounts vs Thunderwolf mount. Discuss.
Choose your blessing of chaos - I'm sorry I mean "sagas" versus "I know you paid points for a lightning claw and hatred against space marines, now look! You rolled up "shred" and "hatred" don't you feel silly now?
Wolf guard vs chosen.
Long Fangs point cost versus havocs
Wolf guard with cyclone launchers versus chosen with missile launchers (just 1 per unit, and can't take flakk missiles)
Wolfen randomness: You'll get at least 3 attacks that rend. Vs daemon weapon randomness - if you roll a 1 you suck. Why can't the penalty be "dang, I paid 45 points and only got 1 more attack!"? Bring back mastery - oh, you killed someone, make a Ld check or take a wound. At the very LEAST you got ONE round of killing things the way your points cost suggests before bad luck eats you.
Speaking of eating you, don't get in a possessed landraider if you're a chaos lord! It kills you on a 1! Why does "fluffy" have to also equal "detrimental" for chaos?
Grey Hunter vs chaos marine that buys his ccw and veteran of the long war. Same attacks, one better ld on chaos, wolves get cheaper gear, counterattack, ATSKNF, acute senses. More for the same cost!
Let's switch gears and look at BA. Compare Death Company to anything chaos. Khorne berserker? Sorry buds, DC have more attacks and fnp on you, and can carry bolters if they want that they're relentless with.
Wait what was that? FNP infantry with relentless bolters? You don't say? 20 points? 2 attacks each? Seems there's another unit that's denial but not scoring with only 1 attack, pays extra for FNP that they lose if the icon gets sniped, and would really REALLY love to have relentless...heck I would even give up rage! Oh, but if they want 2 attacks they'll be 21 points, for the extra ccw.
10 DC = 200 points
10 Noisemarines with bolters and ccw with Slaanesh fnp icon = 220. And they don't have WS5, relentless, or rage. Just I5
10 Berserkers = 200, same number of cc attacks but no bolters for the strategic options and no FNP. Also only 1 powerfist on a champion that has to challenge. DC is a unit of champions essentially that can't be picked out, they just take their powerfists and smash away. We're not even getting into unit synergy with a chaplain and re-rolling and such.
And while those chaos units CAN be made scoring, points-wise they're paying for and are in slots in the army list as non-scoring, just contesting [like DC as well] units.
Random is fine. I like the possessed random table - 3 good, useful options. But I mean... I buy hatred for several units, costing me 30-60 points depending, then I roll hatred for my warlord trait, revealing I wasted most of those points? Then I roll hatred for my chaos boon mutation, meaning I wasted another 10 points?
If I pay points, I expect something good. It's an upgrade. I should be getting better the more points I cost. If you want a random table with detrimental effects, fine. But don't make me pay to get screwed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6 man sonic blaster squad for anti-guard and kroot?
Didn't the guard and kroot move into 24" rapid-fire range and shoot you already?
I mean 20 kroot that's 10 hits, 5 wound, about 2 dead noisemarines,and if they moved cleverly [limiting return fire, easily done now with premeasuring]. Noisemarines can't move into range to fire because salvo halves their range!
What was the other example? Guard? Same deal I'd say, that guard special weapon team or command squad plus infantry blob can move forward and open fire on me before I get to use that sonic blaster.
Current rules, old sonic blaster, new point cost, I might have been ok with. Salvo? No way.
I think it's a bit unfair comparing each of the new chaos units to the strongest/most undercosted counterparts in each different codex. It's almost like you want your new chaos book to be stupidly overpowered and not wanting GW to even try making a balanced game, just so you can win against everyone else with ease. The only codices that needs to be brought in line is Necrons, GK, and to a lesser extent SW and IG. Most of these issues (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Strike Squads, Purifiers, Anihilation Barges, Doom Scythes, Manticores and Vendettas) could be solved with a few simple points adjustments, easily to be fixed by GW in an FAQ if they wanted to.
Spellbound wrote: It worked much better. This...:this is just crap. Absolutely worthless codex. I really expected good things from the author of the "everything is free, by the way there's no drawbacks" space wolf book.
Chaos is not Space Wolves.
Spellbound wrote: Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?
Chaos is not Grey Knights.
loki old fart wrote: parameters for writing a new codex.
We need to sell these new models. And the bread and butter guys must win. So get writing Cue defiler and landraider changes,
anything that can kill MEQ armies gets no overwatch.
Sorcerers are too strong, make them accept challenges.
SORTED
Bingo.
Experiment 626 wrote: I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...
Yeah, expect the trend to last right up until the first Ward loyalist SM codex.
Spellbound wrote: Dp can be double strength and AP 1 (well 2, same diff) anytime he wants.
Chosen had infiltrate because they were adept at putting themselves exactly where they needed to be for the battle. But to be honest I too liked the previous system where you could customize your entire army.
"MY veterans have furious charge and counterattack, because they engage in close quarters"
"Well mine take heavy weapons and have tank hunters and siege specialists"
"Mine worship KHORNE, so they have the mark of Khorne and furious charge"
"Mine worship slaanesh and have acute senses"
It worked much better. This...:this is just crap. Absolutely worthless codex. I really expected good things from the author of the "everything is free, by the way there's no drawbacks" space wolf book.
Whole heartily agree, read the codex and almost shed a tear...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bonde wrote: I think it's a bit unfair comparing each of the new chaos units to the strongest/most undercosted counterparts in each different codex. It's almost like you want your new chaos book to be stupidly overpowered and not wanting GW to even try making a balanced game, just so you can win against everyone else with ease. The only codices that needs to be brought in line is Necrons, GK, and to a lesser extent SW and IG. Most of these issues (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Strike Squads, Purifiers, Anihilation Barges, Doom Scythes, Manticores and Vendettas) could be solved with a few simple points adjustments, easily to be fixed by GW in an FAQ if they wanted to.
But they won't and its not wrong to try to compare the units from this book to those books. We are paying a premium for our book which is supposed to last us until the next edition (maybe another 5+ years) and those are the armies we are going to have to play against. And judging from the book, CSM probably still wont be able to beat Crons, SW, GK, and IG reliably because the codex is just a rehash of the last with some new bits and some arguably worse changes. We don;t want to stomp everyone out there, we just want to be as noncompetitive as these other armies....
I think it's going to take a bit more creativity to be effective, but to spite the folks who had fluffy lists in mind based on the "sacred numbers of Chaos," make new units that are polarizing in looks, and really not make anything truly feel "Chaos" without being random, a possibly negative outcome, or spendy.
I play Daemons because I like the random element and a bit of zaniness. I was interested in adding on Marines to make a fluffy/fun time, but I don't really feel for any of the units because they are so damned expensive because they are specialist + marine tax.
Warp Talons for example... okay, they all have dual claws, jump packs, and 3+/5++. They are costed at almost twice an assault marine, less flexibility, and will STILL die to a torrent of fire.
Oh, but they blind people they deep strike in that are within 6"!
K? I play an entire army that deep strikes. AVG Scatter is 7". Why would I tempt them never coming in or being shoved in a corner? Oh, and so you blind someone within 6"... so my dudes in the Rhino are probably fine, get out, and then torrent them down. And yes, I am a Space Wolf player. So I don't really fear specialist guys because Grey Hunters are "WTF, Swiss Army Knives".
I don't get Warp Talons. There is a level you reach where the points cost doesn't 'balance' any inherent abilities or weapons they've been given, and at the end if the day despite their 5+(I) save they're still just Assault Marines. I'd've rather they were an upgrade to Raptors.
I didn't need everything to be wtf broken at all. I wanted my troops to stay good but stay cheap. I wanted sonic blasters to be better than a storm bolter. I wanted to be able to turn every unit in my army into a sonic something or other.
I wanted my LORD to be able to take a damn sonic weapon, or SOME kind of slaaneshi weapon, good god!!
I wanted a bonus for staying pure and making every unit in the army Slaaneshi, rather than saying "well you can take Lucius, and noisemarines. That's all that's in an emperor's children army right?"
I wanted the mark of slaanesh to DO things for everyone. Make my powerfists strike at initiative 2, just to have that edge on other power fists. To actually have a reason to give the mark to obliterators, ever, perhaps?
I wanted obliterators to stay fearless and not have their ld dropped to 8. You know, so that after losing ONE I didn't risk falling back. Without ATSKNF they'll only snapfire the turn they regroup and can't charge - crippling!!
I wanted sonic dreadnoughts, so that cool forgeworld kit actually meant I could use it. Dreads with blast masters or combat dreads with doom siren and initiative 5, or at least the frag grenade aura that the daemonettes have.
There we go - I wanted my new initiative 8 daemon prince to not be initiative 1 because there was a branch in the way. I wanted a way to become toughness 6 because its a frickin' daemon prince. I'll pay 20 points, whatever.
I wanted a 2+ armor save without having to be a terminator or rolling on a chart, so I could stand a damn chance in a duel with a basic space marine captain.
The list goes on, but none of those things are stupidly overpowered.
As it is, if this list only made rhinos assault vehicles due to "non-codex modifications" by the traitors and lost the self-repair rule, it would at least be usable. Combat-oriented marines, berserkers, possessed, chosen, these would all actually be scary then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't get Warp Talons. There is a level you reach where the points cost doesn't 'balance' any inherent abilities or weapons they've been given, and at the end if the day despite their 5+(I) save they're still just Assault Marines. I'd've rather they were an upgrade to Raptors.
GW has a huge hardon for invul saves.
"This model has a 1/3 chance to shrug off a D-cannon hit!!"
Spellbound wrote: As it is, if this list only made rhinos assault vehicles due to "non-codex modifications" by the traitors and lost the self-repair rule, it would at least be usable. Combat-oriented marines, berserkers, possessed, chosen, these would all actually be scary then.
If you made Rhinos Assault vehicles it would be extremely powerful and the cost would definitely need to go up a lot. Becoming an assault vehicle is pretty great in this edition.
I don't know what else to say to you without being rude so... If you don't like it, complaining won't change it. So just play your Slaanesh, find another army, or play another game.
Experiment 626 wrote: I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...
Yeah, expect the trend to last right up until the first Ward loyalist SM codex.
Well, they've kept the trend up in Fantasy through 5 books so far!
Of corse, You Know Who hasn't had a go at any of them yet, so you're probably right that we'll get CSM's, DA's, Tau & Eldar being well rounded and balanced, then He'll write something like SW's and make them into 'Codex: Grey Knights +11'! Or god forbid, he writes the new Daemon book... (at which point my Daemon army will go on the shelf for fear of it being tossed out a window & repeatedly driven over with a cement truck by absolutely everyone and their mothers.)
Experiment 626 wrote: I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...
Yeah, expect the trend to last right up until the first Ward loyalist SM codex.
Well, they've kept the trend up in Fantasy through 5 books so far!
Of corse, You Know Who hasn't had a go at any of them yet, so you're probably right that we'll get CSM's, DA's, Tau & Eldar being well rounded and balanced, then He'll write something like SW's and make them into 'Codex: Grey Knights +11'! Or god forbid, he writes the new Daemon book... (at which point my Daemon army will go on the shelf for fear of it being tossed out a window & repeatedly driven over with a cement truck by absolutely everyone and their mothers.)
Let him write it. At the very least some part of chaos would be interesting and unique as it is.
FORGEWORLD DOES 
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