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How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
Let me give you a perspective from an exclusive CSM player.
I've been playing Chaos for about two years. Now with this statement bear in mind, I never directly experienced what it was like to play with anything other than the 2007 5th Edition codex. The most I've done is glance at the older codices a buddy had laying around and play a few feth off game with those rules (which were phenomenally cooler than the ones in the 5th ed dex.)
I can't speak as to everyone else's evaluation of the codex on a whole. I know for quite some time I was miffed trying to run against Grey Knight, Necron and IG lists that were designed a certain way. Maybe it is a symptom that I do not strictly compete as much as I can or build the most intense tournament lists, or maybe it's because those codices are overpowered in certain matchups. I don't really care to say.
But, as a whole I am happy with the look of the new codex. Let me point out a few PLUSES that I have seen which tickle me.
Top Ten Good Things
1) Abaddon now comes with a significant army-influencing trait, aka Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) in a 12" bubble. This matches the rules certain other characters had which I was always jealous of, such as Vulkan He'stans ability to make all Melta+Flamers reroll. It makes him into a Leader rather than simply a close combat blender.
2) Obliterators can now be made into T5 models for just +1 point over their old price. They appear to have lost the Fearless rule, which may or may not be intentional, but I can mitigate that and accept it in exchange for my Blitz now being able to weather shots from Lances and Powerfists.
3) Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman and Lucius all seem to have obtained significant buffs in this edition. Their rules were brought well into line with other powerful characters in 6th and in Kharn's case especially his biggest trade off was turned from a deal breaker into a cute fluff mechanic that will no longer destroy entire squads in one turn of bad rolling.
4) Raptors and their cost was brought into more reasonable lines in comparison with Assault marines from other codices, and were also given a counterpart that can stand up to things like Vanguard veterans and Deathcompany (though their whole 6" blind mechanic is yet unproven in my book). In combination with the new rules for Jump infantry in 6th, it brought the entire unit type back into a level playing field that vies for my attention. In the last codex they never crossed my radar.
5) Characters & Aspiring champions which are not unique / named got access to a very nice and interesting array of options. If I am not mistaken I can now look at making Tzeentch terminator lords with 2+/3++, which is something I've been aching for ever since I realized Chaos didn't get stormshields. In the same vein I definitely appreciate the presence of Sigil, Chaos' equivalent to the Iron Halo (albeit pricy).
6) The Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and Heldrake are good additions to the codex and to the style of the entire miniatures lineup for 40k. I feel like they (along with the Hellbrute) are awesome looking minis and wanted to collect them even before I saw any rules. My only disappointment here is that I feel the Forgefiend is overpriced points wise, but play-testing will show whether or not that's a worthy concern.
7) The "fluff" of the Chaos codex is back in full swing with regards to at least the four main Cults & the Black Legion. While other Legions such as Iron Warriors, Nightlords and Alpha Legion have yet again been relegated to "paint it and find rules that work for you", the others are better presented than in the previous codex. I feel this particularly because I was a Black Legion player who ran multiple cult troop choices (Plagues, Berserkers, Thousand Sons) as part of my regular army. Under the new codex I can still use those units but not all of them can still be considered scoring, and far from leaving me disappointed this leaves me with a stronger sense of identity and does not significantly undermine my competitiveness or otherwise frustrate me when I build lists.
8) Although it is unrelated to the codex itself, I feel it is worth mentioning that I feel better about the game as a whole after 6th Edition landed and especially about the ability to include Codex: Daemons as allied units in my secondary detachment. I always felt rather cheated that CSM only got bland, generic daemons which while occasionally useful as one-trick-ponies never and I mean NEVER owned up to the awesome vibe that True Daemons enjoy. Now I can partake of whatever filthy deviltry I want and summon the REAL Mcoys in support of my Chaos-Worshipping Legions. After the White Dwarf adjustments I am especially fond of taking Horrors w/ Changeling and the Flamers, which point for point add the best anti-infantry shooting and suicide-bombs available in my list.
9) The addition of Flak-Missiles to the Havoks is much welcome. In fact I was talking with some buddies about why Missile Launchers didn't have a skyfire option or upgrade just days before I learned about this, and felt it was a great addition on Game-Workshop's part especially in light of how they are giving everyone new Flyer units.
10) In general I am pleased with the points adjustments and balancing tweaks done throughout the Codex. It may not strike the casual passer-by as being too important, but I cannot stress enough that alot of units were fixed and brought into line to a point where they became competitive and interesting. Raptors are among them, and Possessed, our general infantry choices and others. This isn't only because of point-reductions but because the rules appended to some of these units were made significantly more useful. Cheaper of raptors that can now hammer-of-wrath into terrain without testing, possessed that have close-combat specific mutations which never let you down regardless of flavor, and infantry choices that are among the best priced and most valuable MEqs in the entire game are *NOTHING* to sneeze at.
I loathe to see the look on someone's face when they realize that my army contains rules for Hatred and Preferred Enemy against the largest subset of players enjoying 40k; Space Marines. That includes the infamous Grey Knights and other codices like Ultramarines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. Bring it the on. Let me show you just how much the Corpse-god doesn't care when I'm rerolling all hits in my initial assault phases and all 1s in Shooting and Assault against your entire fricken codex.
It's not only fluffy, it's almost just evil, because in a matchup against any of these codexes my army is going to be vicious and unforgiving in a way no one else will yet appreciate. On a Tuesday I can go from slugging it out with Necrons and that Friday completely eviscerate a poor, innocent little Iron Fists player just because I spend +1 point per model or happen to be using a character with a ridiculously awesome Warlord trait.
There are stark disappointments here and there, such as Terminators. They pretty much ignored the regular Vehicle line, even increasing the cost on the Land Raider inexplicably without adding any kind of PotMS equivalent. I feel they did this however in light of adding new and different support options, which, in addition to the existing lineup with units like Obliterators, creates a versatile and dangerous codex. I'm astounded that they fethed over daemon weapons the way they did, which inhibits the way people can build non-unique characters. However. . .
To me, its good enough, and I will enjoy the feth out of it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 04:46:27
"Better have one flexible neck to be making that shot," Bob said.
"You only assume the Balefire is coming out of his mouth, Bob. In my world, the Heldrake is pooping daemonic fire on your troops as it jets away from their mangled and now burning corpses." -John
Grey elder wrote: Flakk missle launchers come at a hefty price >.>
15pts for basic launcher then an extra 10 for Flakk for something that is meh?
I think you might see one missle flakk in a unit and the rest being autocannons since they be dirt cheap and spammed like long fangs.
Not so much. Missile Launchers were 20 points in the old codex. Now, they are 5 points cheaper and you can Flakk missiles for 5 more points than they currently (at least for 3 more days) cost. That's not a hefty price. That's not bad at all.
Let's take a quick look at some numbers for a 5 man unit (4 + squad leader) using Army Builder:
Blood Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 130 points
Dark Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 20 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 170 points
Space Marine Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 150 points
Space Wolves Long Fangs: 75 points. Each additional Long Fang is 15 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 115 points + Split fire
Chaos Space Marines Havocs: 75 points. Each additional Havoc is 13 points. Missle Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 135 points.
This puts Chaos Space Marines in the middle, cost wise, for 4 missile launchers. Until the DA and SM codices are redone, the only bitching people should do is about how ridiculously cheap Long Fangs are AND the fact that they get Split Fire for that cost. That's HUGE, especially when you put a Rune Priest with Living Lightning in the unit. CSM have nothing to complain about, especially if GW doesn't FAQ other codices to have Flakk missiles for a short time to boost sales of Havocs.
Assuming that everyone gets Flakk missiles in an upcoming FAQ, I can only imagine that price will be 10 for each model with Flakk missiles. CSM are still going to be in the middle of the pack.
The price isn't hefty at all. It's right about where it should be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 01:56:08
I out with in both 40k and WHFB.
Co-host of the HittingOn3s Podcast
Grey elder wrote: Flakk missle launchers come at a hefty price >.>
15pts for basic launcher then an extra 10 for Flakk for something that is meh?
I think you might see one missle flakk in a unit and the rest being autocannons since they be dirt cheap and spammed like long fangs.
Not so much. Missile Launchers were 20 points in the old codex. Now, they are 5 points cheaper and you can Flakk missiles for 5 more points than they currently (at least for 3 more days) cost. That's not a hefty price. That's not bad at all.
Let's take a quick look at some numbers for a 5 man unit (4 + squad leader) using Army Builder:
Blood Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 130 points
Dark Angels Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 20 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 170 points
Space Marine Devastators: 90 points. Each additional Devastator is 16 points. Missile Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 150 points
Space Wolves Long Fangs: 75 points. Each additional Long Fang is 15 points. Missile Launchers are 10 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 115 points + Split fire
Chaos Space Marines Havocs: 75 points. Each additional Havoc is 13 points. Missle Launchers are 15 points. Cost for 4 missile launchers: 135 points.
This puts Chaos Space Marines in the middle, cost wise, for 4 missile launchers. Until the DA and SM codices are redone, the only bitching people should do is about how ridiculously cheap Long Fangs are AND the fact that they get Split Fire for that cost. That's HUGE, especially when you put a Rune Priest with Living Lightning in the unit. CSM have nothing to complain about, especially if GW doesn't FAQ other codices to have Flakk missiles for a short time to boost sales of Havocs.
Assuming that everyone gets Flakk missiles in an upcoming FAQ, I can only imagine that price will be 10 for each model with Flakk missiles. CSM are still going to be in the middle of the pack.
The price isn't hefty at all. It's right about where it should be.
Havoks are only in the middle if you compare ALL devastators. It's widely known that vanilla and especially DA devastators are massively over priced. Ruling those out, Havoks are the most expensive, even more-so then BAdevs, which are borderline. Slap another 40 points on them and you are up to a staggering 175. I don't see how they can possibly be competitive at that cost. Chaos also lacks divination, so you can't even get prescience can slap it on a higher strength weapon and try to take out vehicles via re-rolls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 02:39:54
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the_scotsman wrote: I'm just sad because for the longest time i've been saying "Man, thousand sons look cool, I'll wait for the new dex to balance them out so I can play a small detachment"
and then this made me sad. I think I'm abandoning the idea entirely.
They might be pricey, but honestly if you use them right they can be well worth it. Especially when you consider how many space marine codices they are. If you treat them like a standard space marine you will do poorly with them. Get unique with them. Throw them in situations where their 4++ is being used to its maximum effect. If you get to pick where your objectives go throw some in open territory and make them fight your thousand sons without cover for it. Use slow and purposeful to your advantage; they are one of the only units that can rapid fire rounds and then assault in cc, (there better cc then you think). Honestly the aspiring champion might have taken a nerf, but he definitely got better in cc in the new edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 02:46:51
Carnage43 wrote:
Havoks are only in the middle if you compare ALL devastators. It's widely known that vanilla and especially DA devastators are massively over priced. Ruling those out, Havoks are the most expensive, even more-so then BAdevs, which are borderline. Slap another 40 points on them and you are up to a staggering 175. I don't see how they can possibly be competitive at that cost. Chaos also lacks divination, so you can't even get prescience can slap it on a higher strength weapon and try to take out vehicles via re-rolls.
Hmmm, so ignore a group of comparable units because it kills the argument that Havocs are too pricey? Right. Again, it's FIVE points more per model than you're currently paying for a Skyfire option.
I'll give you that DA Devastators are incredibly overpriced. That many points is ridiculous. However, if DA want Flakk missiles and don't or won't use allies, that's the price they are going to pay for them when the option opens up. Totally relevant.
Who knows when C:SM are going to get a codex update. They are, however, likely to get Flakk missiles soon, so it's actually pertinent to compare ALL of the units that are going to have access to the option instead of picking and choosing what to compare so that it fits your argument better.
The fact of the matter is that when you compare the Space Marine type units that will get Flakk missiles, CSM is the middle of the road and will be the only codex with access to Flakk, unless there's an FAQ update on the day of release. Would you be surprised if GW doesn't do an FAQ update? I wouldn't be.
I've read the codex. There are a A LOT of unnecessary "sky is falling" bullsh simply because CSM aren't getting the "GK in 5th edition" level codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sfshilo wrote: Terminators have marks.....not sure why people are saying this..
Also...havocs are the best unit in the codex Imo. Can take a mark, four plasma guns and have two close combat weapons. Holy cow.
While I can't agree that they are the best, they are definitely one of the best. I made my point about ML, but they have plenty of good options. The lascannon has come down in price, 10 points for an autocannon, 15 for a plasma cannon. Havocs will definitely be a must include for me in most lists.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 03:01:59
I out with in both 40k and WHFB.
Co-host of the HittingOn3s Podcast
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
they are one of the only units that can rapid fire rounds and then assault in cc, (there better cc then you think)
They also lost their CCW/BP combo.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 03:10:17
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
4500 Points
3500 (1500 painting, using Lizardmen models) http://imgur.com/a/Y28Fw#0 3000 Points of Heralds of Arcadia (Space Marines)
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
Oblits don't seem nerfed to me. I don't mind the loss of fearless because they are small units anyway, and now they can go to ground in area terrain (or a fortification) for that +2 to their cover save. Plus they can be t5 now... t5 plus 3+/2+ cover save means they don't have to live in fear of lascannons anymore. And they got twin linked stuff they can still fire if they do that.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
4500 Points
3500 (1500 painting, using Lizardmen models) http://imgur.com/a/Y28Fw#0 3000 Points of Heralds of Arcadia (Space Marines)
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 03:29:31
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
Uh the 3-4 and 5-6 powers are both good, meaning that they are likely to get a decent power. And the sorcerer is part of the squad and got cheaper... so the squad is cheaper.
Plus a squad is technically 2 points cheaper before the psyker would take a power in the 4th Ed codex. That's 1/5th of Meltagun! Plus Boon of Mutation has only a 1/6 chance of doing a wound on a normal CSM where as he will probably get some slick power (Imagine getting to turn that normal 'ol CSM sergeant into a Daemon Prince, how slick would that be?!) So the 1-2 roll isn't completely worthless like a lot of people are making it out to be.
4500 Points
3500 (1500 painting, using Lizardmen models) http://imgur.com/a/Y28Fw#0 3000 Points of Heralds of Arcadia (Space Marines)
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
I'm sure many people are retroactively beautifying the OLD CODEX BEFORE GW RUINED IT every edition, but Thousand Sons never had the BP/CCW.
Uh the 3-4 and 5-6 powers are both good, meaning that they are likely to get a decent power. And the sorcerer is part of the squad and got cheaper... so the squad is cheaper.
Due to being Mastery Level 1 he cannot get the 5-6 power as its Warp charge 2, so he will re-roll to get 1-4
Maybe it's not as bad, but it seems that way from a base study.
I'm sure many people are retroactively beautifying the OLD CODEX BEFORE GW RUINED IT every edition, but Thousand Sons never had the BP/CCW.
*Checks* ...
In my defense I was more of a Noise Marine player than a Thousand Son, I swore all of the cult units had it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 03:51:10
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
Not really, Thousand Sons cannot buy BP/CCW combo for any cost in points, as it's not an option for them.
You're right, I was thinking of Noise Marines, my bad! But at least they're still cheaper!
They are the exact same cost, and only gained hatred (Space marines) as a result, lost the ability to take other paths beside Tzeentch, and the first ability for the aspiring sorcerer is just horrible unless your rather lucky with the dice, and lost BP/CCW, the aspiring sorcerer got cheaper, but that's really it.
TS's NEVER had BP/CCW in the 5th ed 'dex.
Sometimes, the only truth people understand, comes from the barrel of a gun.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
They also lost their CCW
And they can pick that up for a point a model and still be cheaper, but that is true. But what I wanna know where it says that the Aspiring Sorcerer was Mastery Level 2, as I can't seem to find that in the old (well really Current haha) Codex
In the Chaos Codex on the Psychic Powers page it says models with the Mark of Tzeentch may use two powers per turn. In the new rulebook it says that, in the absence of a declaration of Mastery Level your Mastery Level is how many powers you can use per turn. An Aspiring Sorcerer is a Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch, so he can use two powers per turn. Therefore, he is Mastery Level 2. He could only take one power, as the FAQ only allowed him to trade powers he bought for rolls and he could only ever buy one, but he was still Mastery Level 2. Now he isn't.
And yeah, the only one who ever had BP/CCW was the Aspiring Sorcerer. The Rubrics were Boltgun/CCW, which is obviously not quite the same.
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
I believe the suicidal power doesn't have to be used on yourself. Because you roll for powers before the game starts, and i am assumnig you took a sorcerer to make the thousand sons troops, just stick the sorcerer with the unit that rolled gift of mutation (i think that is what it is called, not sure). That's still not great, but thousand sons are SandP so giving a sorc termy armour (correct me if i am wrong, but im assuming they can still take that) and you can have a sorcerer who has the potential to get really beastie.
Or maybe you have a chaos lord that could use those buffs. Give him the ap 3 flamer thing, daemon weapon and just throw buffs on to him until you get a nice shootie/melle unit that can walk off a direct hit from a vindicator.
Honestly, i think chaos (maybe not chaos, but tzeench, god of change) should be a hit/miss army, it kinda fits their fluff. Idk, but giving my lord/ sorc instant death causing weapon, flesh-bane, eternal warrior, and stat boosts and doing it every turn seems good to me, even if I have a small chance of being turned into a spawn, or taking a wound.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 06:02:28
How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.
The Rubric marines are exactly the same as before, down to points cost. With the exception of gaining Hatred (Loyalist Marines). So a marginal buff in close combat.
The Aspiring Sorcerer on the other hand, has had a slight price drop (12 points assuming you bought Doombolt in the old codex). However, he has had his Mastery Level nerfed down to Level 1, and because of that and the change to the Chaos Psychic Power rules he's now restricted to 1 of 3 powers. Of those 3 powers, one is a suicide power, one is a terribly mediocre small blast (the Primaris) and the other is an upgraded Bolt of Change. So a 50% chance of getting Bolt of Change (now called Doombolt, because that's not pointless and confusing), and a 50% chance of getting something where he's likely better off firing his bolt pistol. The Mastery Level nerf also means the unit will be, at best, rolling Deny the Witch on a 5+, where under the current codex there's a good chance they can get the 4+ for being a higher mastery level than the enemy psyker. It also means he can't cast his psychic power and use his force weapon in the same turn, but as it's now impossible for him to cast a spell in the enemy turn he is at least guaranteed to have the warp charge needed to use his force weapon on those turns.
I believe the suicidal power doesn't have to be used on yourself. Because you roll for powers before the game starts, and i am assumnig you took a sorcerer to make the thousand sons troops, just stick the sorcerer with the unit that rolled gift of mutation (i think that is what it is called, not sure).
They're talking about Aspiring Sorcerers, which are sergeant upgrades for Rubric squads. So you sort of can't move them around squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 06:37:41
He's talking about adding an HQ Sorcerer to a Thousand Sons unit, and then using the Aspiring Sorcerer who rolled the mutation spell to cast it on the HQ. Which is possible, as it's a single character within 3" for the target.
Without the actual table in front of me, or the in depth rules for the Gift, I can't say one way or another if it would be worth doing. I suspect, if you intended to do it all along, then you could certainly make it work that way. But if it wasn't your plan, I think it becomes far less useful.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 08:55:23
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
I can't find any fluff anywhere regarding the use of a large number of Raptors. Raiding forces, yeah, but never aerial assaults.
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
Well, the lash was the only broken item in the former codex. Its good that its gone. Now I'll unshelve my EC army. Its seems that sonic blasters and blastmasters get more useful in the new codex.
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DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
I can't find any fluff anywhere regarding the use of a large number of Raptors. Raiding forces, yeah, but never aerial assaults.
Raptors can be considered raiding forces, quick getting in, and quick getting out.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: For Night Lords, just load up on generic Space Marines and Raptors, with a unit of Warp Claws to honor guard your Chaos Lord. Give everyone Veteran of the Long War, and skip everything with a mark of a god or the daemon USR. Shame you have to be Nurgle Marked to take the banner that makes a unit cause Fear.
That's not a bad idea actually.
Hmmm... Do I dare to make the warband of the exalted?
You don't need the nurgle banner for Raptors and Warp Claws.
Raptors come with fear already, and Warpclaws are Daemons, which come with fear and invulnerable, pity for the troops, but then again the Night lords were mostly known from the fearful assaults from the skies rather then the terror of their ground troops.
I can't find any fluff anywhere regarding the use of a large number of Raptors. Raiding forces, yeah, but never aerial assaults.
Raptors can be considered raiding forces, quick getting in, and quick getting out.
I suppose
They are mentioned in the Night Lords Trilogy.
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
I'm kinda disappointed they did nothing with the actual vehicles though. Same old vindicator/predator/land raider, and the options don't make them anymore appealing compared to the bloated heavy slot.
on. Let me show you just how much the Corpse-god doesn't care when I'm rerolling all hits in my initial assault phases and all 1s in Shooting and Assault against your entire fricken codex.
out with 
Again, it's FIVE points more per model than you're currently paying for a Skyfire option.
4500 Points
3500 (1500 painting, using Lizardmen models) 
3000 Points of Heralds of Arcadia (Space Marines) 
Plus Boon of Mutation has only a 1/6 chance of doing a wound on a normal 
