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Makumba wrote:
25 pts for the key isnt that much , runing 3-4 of them could give some nice combos with necron ally. .

The key only works for codex units.

The key only works with units from the CSM codex.

Ninjad

Mohoc wrote:

Makumba wrote:
25 pts for the key isnt that much , runing 3-4 of them could give some nice combos with necron ally. .

The key only works for codex units.

You can also only take one of each Artefact per army.

So, I just got a peek. Is it too early to start crying about how the sky is falling with Forgefiends? 175 points for 8 S8 shots? How will we live?

considering how absurdly easy AV12 vehicles are to destroy...probably not.

That's a shame. I figured there'd be "Grey Knight levels" of FUD flying around by now.

220pts for Defilers?!? But I run three of them!

My reaction:

 daedalus wrote:
So, I just got a peek. Is it too early to start crying about how the sky is falling with Forgefiends? 175 points for 8 S8 shots? How will we live?

I take it you are being sarcastic, especially given your former stances over on Warseer (assuming it's the same Daedalus)?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time

40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.

I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.

The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?

I'm probably better off playing with a fandex than the actual codex

 Just Dave wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time

40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.

I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.

The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?

Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.

I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.

Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.

I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
So, I just got a peek. Is it too early to start crying about how the sky is falling with Forgefiends? 175 points for 8 S8 shots? How will we live?

I take it you are being sarcastic, especially given your former stances over on Warseer (assuming it's the same Daedalus)?

Different daedalus, sounds like the same stance however.

Seriously though, people were throwing fits about Psyflemen. I just find it interesting that people are not up in arms about this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.

I'm pretty sure this is completely accurate.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time

40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.

I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.

The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?

Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.

I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.

Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.

I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.

I think that what Plumbumbarum is trying to get across is that they have made the defiler an undesirable unit to have in an army due to high points cost to sell alot of the new Daemon engines, which in my opinion look like utter gak.

I for one think it's really annoying that they have done this, even though I don't play competitively doesn't mean I don't want units at a reasonable points value for what they do. AV 12 is not worth 220 points, even with the battle cannon. Defilers were easy to kill back in 5th ed but were pretty cheap for what you got. Defilers are pretty easy to kill now and not so cheap, are they the same price as the chaos land raider now?

Has anyone seen the max number of cultists that can be taken in a unit yet?
Thanks.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.

I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.

Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.

I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.

I dislike 'rage' posts of any variety (quitting, ranting, whatever) as much as the next person - and would claim myself to be a very calm forum member - and I agree that they have no real place in a discussion; I would never argue otherwise.

However, what I ultimately said was that the designer of a Codex should not really be making 'meh' units worse IMHO; it's just poor design and fulfilment of their job, whether the majority play competitively or not.

On which note, it could be argued that if most players apparently "don't care how powerful the unit is" - a claim I disagree with btw - then why should they not cater for those who do? If they're the ones that actually care about the rules - and the others, above, don't - then surely the rules should be designed for them? However, I'm not going to get into a JFF vs. WAAC debate, which is what it would probably turn to.
I would also expect it's not just tabletop gamers who make such sweeping or dramatic claims and that that is an overgeneralisation, but I don't frequent other forums to truly comment.

 daedalus wrote:
Different daedalus, sounds like the same stance however.

Seriously though, people were throwing fits about Psyflemen. I just find it interesting that people are not up in arms about this.

Uh, really? Maybe people are not up in arms about the forgefiend because it is garbage compared to the psyfleman? The forgefiend only gets 4 hits per turn over the 3.6 the psyfleman puts out (1.3 vs 1.2 vs flyers), and costs 175 over the psyfleman's 135. The forgefiend is also gigantic compared to the dread making it much harder to get good cover, which means it NEEDS the 5++ built in just to make it back to level footing with other vehicles. The saving grace is the once per game reroll, which is actually pretty good. It's also a shame that the +1str -12" range plasma cannons suck so much, because they are the weapon option that they managed to sculpt in a way that looks more daemon-engine than digimon.

 Skerr wrote:
Has anyone seen the max number of cultists that can be taken in a unit yet?
Thanks.

35

 ph34r wrote:
Uh, really? Maybe people are not up in arms about the forgefiend because it is garbage compared to the psyfleman? The forgefiend only gets 4 hits per turn over the 3.6 the psyfleman puts out (1.3 vs 1.2 vs flyers), and costs 175 over the psyfleman's 135. The forgefiend is also gigantic compared to the dread making it much harder to get good cover, which means it NEEDS the 5++ built in just to make it back to level footing with other vehicles. The saving grace is the once per game reroll, which is actually pretty good. It's also a shame that the +1str -12" range plasma cannons suck so much, because they are the weapon option that they managed to sculpt in a way that looks more daemon-engine than digimon.

Hadn't seen the model yet. Having a look at it, I see what you mean; it's a little big (not to mention... goofy).

I also didn't realize that the reroll was only once per game. That changes things somewhat. I hardly think it's "garbage" though, even in comparison to the psyfleman. It's not bad, just maybe not something you take three of.

 Skerr wrote:
Has anyone seen the max number of cultists that can be taken in a unit yet?
Thanks.

35! Start with 10 (one of whom is a sergeant) and then you can add on 25


As for the Forgefiend, I really hope people don't bring them. The Reroll on Pen is gonna make it tough not loosing vehicles to it quickly... It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn

 felixander wrote:
It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn

As has been mentioned its re-roll is once per game. It will still seriously inconvenience AV 12 vehicles though, even flyers will get hit at least once on average. To be honest it looks like it has been costed quite well.

If the model was nicer I would seriously consider a Dark Mechanicus army.

Palindrome wrote:

 felixander wrote:
It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn

As has been mentioned its re-roll is once per game. It will still seriously inconvenience AV 12 vehicles though, even flyers will get hit at least once on average. To be honest it looks like it has been costed quite well.

If the model was nicer I would seriously consider a Dark Mechanicus army.

It's going to on average get 2 glances/pens per AV12 (without cover) that it shoots at. There's a reasonable chance one can and will put some hurt on a vehicle. With so many shots at a relatively low BS, there's a lot more room for variance than when you're only dealing with a couple shots.

So I've read through the codex, did some napkin math, and come to the conclusion that all the griping about CSM being underpowered is complete bunk. The price per unit and the plethora of options pretty much every single unit has access to is bananas. The potential to waste all of your points on a few squads is there, but if you don't dump all of your points you can outfield pretty much any other MEQ army. Their whole codex obliterates MEQ, their vehicles can restore hull points in more than one way, their havocs which are modestly priced can be given flak missiles. Their bikes are DIRT cheep even with mark of nurgle. T6 4/5++ 3+ anyone? Better warlord table you can roll on anyone?


The only problem with this codex is it has more tables than the campus cafeteria and will likely slow the already slow 6th edition down to a crawl.

 felixander wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Has anyone seen the max number of cultists that can be taken in a unit yet?
Thanks.

35! Start with 10 (one of whom is a sergeant) and then you can add on 25


As for the Forgefiend, I really hope people don't bring them. The Reroll on Pen is gonna make it tough not loosing vehicles to it quickly... It's gonna take out an AV12 (without cover) every turn

Daemon engine is once per game so, only take one AV12 (w/o cover) for sure one turn, then it blows up with his AV 12

From wrote:

The only problem with this codex is it has more tables than the campus cafeteria and will likely slow the already slow 6th edition down to a crawl.

Perhaps if you have difficulty reading. The only remotely complex table is the Boon one and even thats not exactly taxing. Its more annoying that you now have to take the codex to games rather than simply your army list.

Not to be argumentative, but you always should have had your codex with you to play games.

I can't be bothered, I use a Battlescribe printout. No one has yet complained.

What if there's a question about the rules? I mean, I know my main codexes backwards and forwards but sometimes you need to look something up.

Although for my part, I usually only play in my garage or at a tournament, so...

 MetalOxide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:This is something that is just unbelievable, pay 50$ for a book with marketing tricks and nerfing beyond the point of uselesslness. It's shameless, impudent crap that shows their absolute lack of respect for their consumers - how did they manage to tame their playerbase like that, no idea. Anyway I'm out from buying new models or codieces, Dark Vengenance is hopefuly my last purchase for a long time

40k is a game designed to be played casually by casual players, and it is naive to ever expect there to be a book with units that are all competitive options, because simply this is not and never was the reason GW made books. There's no crime here.

I don't think anyone was asking for all units to be competitive.
It's known that people use rules competitively, so rules should also cater for them IMHO.

The rules were designed by a professional, full time, games designer, who made a 'meh' unit worse. It's not a crime, but it seems pretty stupid to me?

Why is it stupid when the people they design the game for don't care how powerful the unit is? They have a target market, and so that's what they work for, just like any business. It's just a plus for GW that people have made the game competitive and thus created a different way to play, but they always make it abundantly clear that they make their games for fun and collecting, nothing else. They are clear in their intentions, so I feel people who expect anything other than what they are blatantly told should stop acting like them not getting what they want is a crime against humanity. It's a game after all, nothing more.

I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.

Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.

I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.

I think that what Plumbumbarum is trying to get across is that they have made the defiler an undesirable unit to have in an army due to high points cost to sell alot of the new Daemon engines, which in my opinion look like utter gak.

I for one think it's really annoying that they have done this, even though I don't play competitively doesn't mean I don't want units at a reasonable points value for what they do. AV 12 is not worth 220 points, even with the battle cannon. Defilers were easy to kill back in 5th ed but were pretty cheap for what you got. Defilers are pretty easy to kill now and not so cheap, are they the same price as the chaos land raider now?

Yes you're right, I'm not a tourney player and not sure if competitive as I fielded 3 carnifexes in 5th and still field them in 6th. Carnifexes are a great example of GW aproach btw, one might have bought 3 in 4th edition only to see them priced senslessly vs other units in the 5th edition codex and not really usable if you want to have anything close to equal chance to win games. It was not because the game changed and the new better game environment required that change, it was just to make your carefuly built and painted expensive models a handicap out of a sudden and to add insult to the injury, those were models that had previously been awesome to make you buy as many of them as possible. This is not respect for a consumer that's for sure.

Now, what is most important here, I paid for the codex, I paid for rules. Rules are meant to provide me a vehicle for fun, tactics, strategy, balance etc, not to sell fething models. If they want to sell models, they should up their quality, make awesome irresistible sculpts, attract new players etc Whenever I see paid rules made only to invalidate some armies or models and force people to buy without adding anything meaningful to the game - sake for the sake of change - I feel offended and treated like a fool. This is impundent crap made by shameless boors, guys so overconfident that they deserve a non literal slap rather than money. I wish them pirated to hell with their 50$ codieces and loosing so many customers that someone who cares for the game there fires the whole sales brigade at once and writes them opinions opening with words like sleazy and cheap. Shame btw as from what I see the codex looks balanced and reasonable also I'm sure the artwork is amazing, I don't think it's Kelly himself who's happy to crap on his work like that (only guessing though) but I'm tired of such low blows and am not willing to support it anymore.

That's the worse trait of GW, sacrificing rules quality for cheap salesmanship.

 pretre wrote:
What if there's a question about the rules? I mean, I know my main codexes backwards and forwards but sometimes you need to look something up.

Although for my part, I usually only play in my garage or at a tournament, so...

All I needed was on the printout or in the main rules. Its not as if the 5th ed 'dex was complex.

@Plumbumbarum: "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence."