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Believe me. The list is pages long already. I'll send it in on Monday morning after spending the weekend actually playing with the rules to see what else crops up.

 Alpharius wrote:

But it really rankles when we need to take a freakin' Word Bearers Dark Apostle in order to make our cultists better!!!

Or take allied IG.

Allied IG + Space Marines codex.

Or, Horus Heresy book!

 Sigvatr wrote:


/e: Hmmm...take a squad of 10 CSM, give each one a hand weapon, Mark of Khorne, that already makes them have 4 attacks at S5 per model on the charge...40 S5 attacks at I4? Yes please. Add Icon of Wrath and you get 40 S6 attacks at I4 at the charge on a fearless unit. I'M SOLD.'.

The problem with such blender units is that they are really easy to screw over with a simple wedge formation.

Palindrome wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

But it really rankles when we need to take a freakin' Word Bearers Dark Apostle in order to make our cultists better!!!

Or take allied IG.

kronk wrote:Allied IG + Space Marines codex.

Or, Horus Heresy book!

That's what I'm thinking...

 Alpharius wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 Bonde wrote:
Sadly we have been told that Chosen aren't able to infiltrate anymore, so the only option seems to take Huron Blackheart with his sneaky warlord trait.

Thats not a bad thing. He's actually a good character.

The only problem is when you want to field a fluffy Alpha Legion army, which really woulden't have a Red Corsairs lord as a leader. The obvious way is to do some heavy converting yourself, best bid is probably along the lines of the SM commander box set with some chaos bits.

I know.

We'll just have to grin and bear it.

But it really rankles when we need to take a freakin' Word Bearers Dark Apostle in order to make our cultists better!!!

Or you just make up your own model and explanation and use them as counts-as for dark apostles and huron. You can probably come up with something good

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

Palindrome wrote:
The Terminator unit entry is a mistake, the actual wargear entry for terminator weapons allows both the ranged AND close combat weapons to be upgraded. I suspect that there will be an FAQ along shortly. Afterall as it is there probably isn't a legal Terminator squad on the planet.

Given how specific it is, I have a hard time dismissing it as a mistake. The FAQ will tell the tale.

Well, they did edit the LotD unit entry in the Smurf codex FAQ because the Sergeant model they released was actually illegal! (and the sculpter's would have easily had access to the rules since the LotD were rleased some months after the codex! )
So I guess there's a small glimmer of hope that if we cry and bemoan enough, GW might change the entry in the FAQ?!

I know my planned Termie squad is borked now... I was aiming for 1x paired lightning claws, 1x reaper cannon + power toy, 4x combi-flamer + power fist. Luckily for me I put aside my CSM's until *after* the new codex drop!
A couple of my friends who've been playing Chaos since way back when however... Well, let's just say they're not looking forward to the thought of having to re-arm 10-20+ Termies!

But then look to at our absolutely horribad termie kit. Under the current unit entry, you litterly have no choice in how to build the models, plus you're still missing a third of the options! If GW don't change things, then that kit is never going to be bought except for 10-year olds who don't know any better... No one who looks at the unit entry first will even think of wasting cash on that piece of crap kit.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:And again, Slaanesh armies got kicked again

Ah, what? How on earth did Slaanesh get kicked? Noise Marines are one of the better two cult troops now, the icon now grants FNP, Lucius got better; no I'm not seeing how Slaanesh got kicked again.

Should've been more specific.

Slaanesh HQ's and Lucius got awesome (HQ's in general are now all viable in some manner, even Huron)

Sonic blasters still suck and are still to expensive, blastmasters are now one per ten as well, just disappointed that I'm going to need to place bolters back on the models again as I was hoping for sonics to be a bit more decent.

Really?!!
Ignoring cover with ap5 weapons that can get 3 shots per dude is crap?! Feth, all those poor b ard IG players who've been cowaring behind Aegis Lines and going to ground and then using their Orders to still shoot... Yep, they're totally not whining already about our ability to just laugh at their cover and wipe out whole Platoons in one go!
And while sure, the Blastmaster needs 10+ to take one, it's still an ap3 blast marker that ignores cover!

I fail to see how this is 'bad' in any way. (if you can't understand why you need 10+ to field blastmasters, then just do us a favour and go play Newcrons or GK's since you're looking for a 'win button')

I dread to think what 'decent' Sonic Blasters would be to you.

Most of the people I play against aren't IG, mostly 4+ saves in my local and the like so the AP5 No cover is worthless to me. Salvo's nice, probably gonna take at least one full squad to be on objective duty, but I probably would've taken them on all squads if they were 2 points rather then three.

I still don't know why the Khorne axe grants rage to a unit with rage, since it can only be taken by those with the Mark of Khorne it cannot be taken by the DP's who don't get rage.

 Rampage wrote:
Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.

I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.

Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.

I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.

Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.

Necrons were a good army before 6th hit. Whereas when they were first released the majority of people were thinking that they were an average Codex. In a few months time it will have been figured out how to use the Chaos Codex competitively and it won't be a mid-low tier army.

In fact, I'm going to quote myself saying that last part in my sig.

I'm very disappointed in the cultists.

I don't like the fact they have (very close to) guardsman statlines. Cultists, in my opinion, should be no more competent than IG conscripts at best. Giving a bunch of civilians, criminals and assorted scum BS 3 and Ld 7 makes everyone else in the game seem a little bit less competent, especially guys like Guardsmen and Tau who I think get unfairly dismissed for not being as good as marines.

I don't like the fact that the only special option available for the champion is a shotgun (and it's not a good choice for those points). Couldn't he at least have mutations? Why don't the other guys get the option of shotguns? They hardly seem like rare weapons. Seems that option was only thrown in there for the DV model.

I don't like that they don't have any special rules to give them a unique role in the army. Surely Infiltrate would have been flavourful and let them actually be useful? As it is, they are just a way to spam anti-infantry firepower from behind the front lines... but basic CSM do that role pretty well with their bolters.

I think it's a great book, but I liked the last one too so YMMV. I play Black Legion without Cult troops or Cultists, we are the original badasses and have been represented well by the last 3 books. I can see how Legion specific fluff players might be a little run down after this book and the last one... but I think the variety is there with allies and counts as if you think outside the box a bit.

Abaddon and 40 Chosen are looking to be the core of my army at this point. Sprinkle in a Heldrake and my old school Nurgle Oblits I converted a few years ago and I'm good to go. I'm not a min max waac guy either though so I was hoping for a DE style variety book instead of a GK "give everyone something to cry about" book. My only beef is the Terminator entry is borked but hopefully it will be fixed in a FAQ, if not I'll just use them however I want in friendly games and move on.

 Rampage wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.

I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.

Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.

Necrons were a good army before 6th hit. Whereas when they were first released the majority of people were thinking that they were an average Codex. In a few months time it will have been figured out how to use the Chaos Codex competitively and it won't be a mid-low tier army.

In fact, I'm going to quote myself saying that last part in my sig.

Several major core mechanics changed with 6th that boosted them relative to other armies however, flyer mechanics, night fight ubiquity, changes to make vehicles hilariously easy to kill while having more mitigation than most against such changes, etc.

The chaos book as is lacks the same sort of things, in fact it lacks the gimmickyness that makes the necron book strong almost altogether. I don't think it's a bad thing in and of itself, in fact I prefer books like that, but it does mean it won't have the same sort of ability on the table. It's a pretty straightfoward army, especially relative to something like the Necron codex that has awkward gimmicks in almost everything it does.

I admit I'm only looking at the codex from one side. Slannesh. But I think things are going to be good.

The number of blastmasters in my army is surely going to drop, but I think the number of doom sirens is going to skyrocket. I'm also taking as many psychers as I can to get the spell that treats other sonic weapons as one strength point higher and the spell that buffs one unit HTH wise. Thats S6 AP3 flamer templates and brutal HTH on HTH kitted marines or damonettes. Those are just going to be murder against pretty much anything. Add in some devistating S5 sonic blasters that don't allow cover and you have a really good crowd control unit.

I can see two units of noise marines with the FNP icons being wonderful objective sitters and still contributing to the fight everywhere.

I'm still trying to figure out a good way to get my damonettes onto the field, because 3 rhinos with durge casters seems awefully tempting to help let the ladies get the job done.

I see a lot of synergy in this codex. But its a Kelly codex where units have to work together. Its not a Ward codex, where something just stand out and scream OMG power. I expect to see some rather nasty combos show up once the majority of the player base starts experimenting.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Most of the people I play against aren't IG, mostly 4+ saves in my local and the like so the AP5 No cover is worthless to me. Salvo's nice, probably gonna take at least one full squad to be on objective duty, but I probably would've taken them on all squads if they were 2 points rather then three.

I still don't know why the Khorne axe grants rage to a unit with rage, since it can only be taken by those with the Mark of Khorne it cannot be taken by the DP's who don't get rage.

Not every meta is the same, suffice to say Emperors Children rake guard over the coals now with their basic weapon. If your facing majority 4+ saves than your looking at Necrons or Tau and there are a bunch of options now against them, dirge casters for starters spammed on rhinos. Warp Talons should auto win against initiative 2 Necrons.

By the same token Death Guard and The Thousand Suns do a stout number with marines. If you area is 3+ heavy then basic troops spamming veteran of the long war will melt so many faces. Havocs with flakk missiles will eliminate any stormtalon or storm raven in a matter of seconds.

From what I can tell the Daemon Prince can take the Khorne axe and benefit from the rage, which is the only point to the rule as currently written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Several major core mechanics changed with 6th that boosted them relative to other armies however, flyer mechanics, night fight ubiquity, changes to make vehicles hilariously easy to kill while having more mitigation than most against such changes, etc.

The chaos book as is lacks the same sort of things, in fact it lacks the gimmickyness that makes the necron book strong almost altogether. I don't think it's a bad thing in and of itself, in fact I prefer books like that, but it does mean it won't have the same sort of ability on the table. It's a pretty straightfoward army, especially relative to something like the Necron codex that has awkward gimmicks in almost everything it does.

When you have a chaos space marine the same cost as a necron warrior there arent much in the way of gimmicks you need. A shooting chaos army is going to be plentiful and painful.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Most of the people I play against aren't IG, mostly 4+ saves in my local and the like so the AP5 No cover is worthless to me.

Given how easy it seems to be to get 2+ cover saves in sixth edition (Ruins + Stealth + Going to Ground, Defence Lines + Going to Ground, Stacking Camo Cloaks and Stealth, Shrouded, etc) I'd say that anything which igores cover has some use.

lazarian wrote:

When you have a chaos space marine the same cost as a necron warrior there arent much in the way of gimmicks you need. A shooting chaos army is going to be plentiful and painful.

Sure, if you're just talking troops against troops, but between flyers, transports, SC gimmicks, crypteks, and more, there's a lot more going on. I'm not saying CSM's will be crushed, only that there's a lot more going on than just comparing basic grunts to basic grunts.

Initial tactical thoughts on the new dex after looking it over:

- Chosen are pretty good deal. 2 attacks base, have BP/CCW/Bolter standard (so 3 attacks always), and can take 5 special weapons. Add in marks and you can make them handle anything for not that many points.

- Abaddon makes chosen troops, so you can have 6 of these units toting 5 melta-guns each, damn. Eat your heart out coteaz spam, henchmen with T3 stats, I've got 6 units of 5 melta toting chaos marines ramming down your throat.

- Kharn is a beast again and yes, he has str.6, is AP 2, and strikes at Initiative! Slightly cheaper than before and not terribly survivable, but damn can he hit hard.

- Plague marines I still think are gold.

- Typhus makes cultists plague zombies for free. Ya, and you can make any amount of cultist units plauge zombies, dawn of the dead re-creation here I come.

- Huron balckheart is actually a good choice as he has good wargear that let's him basically do everything including be a psyker, and makes D3 units infiltrate, seems fluffy for an undivided list and I dare say will be the go to choice for Alpha Legion players.

- Very surprised on warp talons, and it is positive. They have the daemon special rule so they have a 5++ which will help save them when they deepstrike and can take marks. Not a bad price and when they can assault they melt anything but terminators.

- Very disappointed in terminators. Whether by design or mistake, you can only upgrade a terminators shooty weapon, or his melee weapon, not both. So basically all my termies are now illegal, great.

- Defiler went from decent buy to not until next dex. It's not that it's stats are bad but for the basic defiler with autocannon/ccw we all had from the old dex it will cost a whopping 220pts. I know they were trying to sell the new daemon engines but damn that is a point nerf.

- Obliterators got kinda nerfed in that they can't use the same weapon two turns in a row though they did get an assault cannon mutation which is helpful. Still only T4 though they can take marks.

- I think the helldrake will turn out to be a must take. It's AV12, which is huge for flyers who mainly have to defend against the quad-gun and the new flakk missile which are both only strength 7. Best yet though, it's the only flyer that can vector strike which means you can scoot 36" across the board first turn, vector strike, hover next turn and lay that oh so nasty baleflamer template behind enemy lines.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
Whenever a new Codex drops we think that it isn't going to be paticularly competitive. Heck, 11 months ago when Necrons dropped a lot of us were saying that Necrons weren't great from a competitive standpoint and were probably going to be a mid-tier army.

I haven't seen the Codex myself as I'm waiting for it to hit the shelves but I'm sure that if we give it time we'll start to see some good builds come out of it.

Then 6th happened, at CSM is bland at best and is the first true codex of 6th I see it pretty much being a mid-low tier army, at least the last dex had lash...this this is just oatmeal shoe horned in to a book shape. Don't get me started on the strange point cost or useless rules.

Necrons were a good army before 6th hit. Whereas when they were first released the majority of people were thinking that they were an average Codex. In a few months time it will have been figured out how to use the Chaos Codex competitively and it won't be a mid-low tier army.

In fact, I'm going to quote myself saying that last part in my sig.

Several major core mechanics changed with 6th that boosted them relative to other armies however, flyer mechanics, night fight ubiquity, changes to make vehicles hilariously easy to kill while having more mitigation than most against such changes, etc.

Completely true, but that doesn't mean that it was a mediocre Codex in 5th edition, like a lot of us said it would be when the Codex first hit. I completely understand your point about the lack of gimmicks, but I still don't think that the Codex will be near mid-low tier.

Flakk missle launchers come at a hefty price >.>
15pts for basic launcher then an extra 10 for Flakk for something that is meh?
I think you might see one missle flakk in a unit and the rest being autocannons since they be dirt cheap and spammed like long fangs.

Chaos wasn't a bad codex in 4/5th edition. They were just too expensive.

I think the new book will make them competitive. Point values dropped on a lot of things. While some things won't work too well, others will shine.

I'm not happy about obliterators losing fearless and leadership, but that can be countered somewhat with marks.

I don't like the defiler getting upped in points by a huge amount, but I guess they want to sell the new heavy support models.

Terminators sound wacky, I was hoping to really up my terminator count, but if they are that bad I will just stick with my 10. Termicide still sounds viable.

Raptors and Bikers sound fieldable again being ultra cheap and getting HoW attacks doesn't hurt.

Noise Marines sound very nice with their new marks giving them feel no pain and the ability to ignore cover. So many armies seem to try to trick out units with cover saves, well a squad of noise marines will erase those quite easily. They also won't be slouches in assault.

Regular CSM are cheap and can be tailored for different jobs with marks and icons.

Plague marines are as good as ever.

The Dragon, while stupid looking, is probably the best flyer in the game right now.

With the nerf to obliterators I won't mind fielding more cheap havocs, and I have about 20 missile launchers from the old 1999 book when every five man vet squad could take two.

At £30, I'm not buying the Codex.

A lot of the new stuff sounds good. For me in particular, I think the Marks/Icon system is a brilliant idea (if applied consistently) and Nurgle, Slaanesh and God-worshipping Undivided appear well handled.

However, a lot of the stuff seems rushed or like 'amateur-ish' mistakes IMHO. Poor representation of some factions (Tzeentch and Alpha Legion spring to mind), a lack of Drop Pods or Predator/Land Raider variants, limited Daemon weapons, still expensive Reaper Autocannons etc. all disappoint me.

I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...

So far, 8th edition has had no 'uber book that just curbstomps everything else. It's actually pretty damn balanced, and overall, there's very little power creep between the percieved weakest book (Tomb Kings) and the percieved strongest book (Ogre Kingdoms).

I hope 40k is going to head in this direction with the new 6th ed codices, and judging by what we now know with Chaos Marines, it seems like that is GW's intention.
There's no real 'winning choice' in the new book that's head-and-shoulders beyond any other unit, while aside from the Termie feth-up, (which hopefully will be FAQ'd back to what it should be), there's no real outright crappy dud units.
Every unit has a place and with the right composition, every unit can be useful. I'd say that a huge win!

The main problem will be the last couple of 5th ed books that almost certainly won't get a looking at until well down the road potentially monkeying things up, unless they become such a massive problem that GW has them jump to the front of the line. (ala WoC & Lizardmen which are rumored to be up for re-do soon, despite being only 4 years old!)
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...

Has anybody realised how overpowered Abaddon is?

He is just crazy. His points are way too low for his effectiveness.

D6 + 7 attacks on the charge at str 5 ap 2 or D6 + 6 on the counter charge with Drach'nyen.

With the Talon of Horus, he gets 7 str 8 shred attacks at ap 3 on a charge and 6 on counter attack.

Both of these are at initiative 6.

The guy is an absolute beast.

Oh and he makes chosen troops.

What a bargain.

Does the codex make CSM feel like 'marines with spikes' or are they substantially different now?

Puscifer wrote:
Has anybody realised how overpowered Abaddon is?

He is just crazy. His points are way too low for his effectiveness.

D6 + 7 attacks on the charge at str 5 ap 2 or D6 + 6 on the counter charge with Drach'nyen.

With the Talon of Horus, he gets 7 str 8 shred attacks at ap 3 on a charge and 6 on counter attack.

Both of these are at initiative 6.

The guy is an absolute beast.

Oh and he makes chosen troops.

What a bargain.

He was like this in the old book. The month where the new FAQ hit him upside the head is the only thing that diminished him. Hes just like Draigo/Lysander/ect; hes the core of your deathstar. He still dies in 24 lasgun wounds like always.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Far Seer wrote:
Does the codex make CSM feel like 'marines with spikes' or are they substantially different now?

Eh different enough, the models certainly have diverged unless your going for just boots on the ground in metal bawkes. The rules are pretty sufficiently different now for many units.

The Codex looks really solid to me. No it isn't over powered, but THANK GOD. We don't need to keep ramping up codex power, we need to balance them out. I hope this is a sign of that balance coming around. Chaos definitely got buffed in this and got some cool new toys. I feel like most of the people (but not everyone) who are complaining just were expecting something stupid broken.

So my questions are:

How did 1K sons get nerfed? Their squad is exactly the same as I see it but with some new options. And their psyker gets a FREE power now.

How did Slaanesh get nerfed? Noise Marines are 3 points cheaper (and 5 points cheaper with a Sonic Blaster). Lucius seems pretty brutal and while most mounts got more expensive the Slaanesh one got cheaper.


Maybe I missed something as I'm not a Chaos player but make sure I read up on all the armies. You guys got some new choices while you mostly got an price cut on a lot of things.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...

So far, 8th edition has had no 'uber book that just curbstomps everything else. It's actually pretty damn balanced, and overall, there's very little power creep between the percieved weakest book (Tomb Kings) and the percieved strongest book (Ogre Kingdoms).

I hope 40k is going to head in this direction with the new 6th ed codices, and judging by what we now know with Chaos Marines, it seems like that is GW's intention.
There's no real 'winning choice' in the new book that's head-and-shoulders beyond any other unit, while aside from the Termie feth-up, (which hopefully will be FAQ'd back to what it should be), there's no real outright crappy dud units.
Every unit has a place and with the right composition, every unit can be useful. I'd say that a huge win!

The main problem will be the last couple of 5th ed books that almost certainly won't get a looking at until well down the road potentially monkeying things up, unless they become such a massive problem that GW has them jump to the front of the line. (ala WoC & Lizardmen which are rumored to be up for re-do soon, despite being only 4 years old!)
The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...

Wasn't Daemons for 8th edition so horribly overpowered that it broke that entire edition? I remember it being so infamous that people were saying it made GK look tame by comparison and that it was the worst book Matt Ward has ever done.

Back on topic a bit, I do not like what this is foreshadowing. FIFTY DOLLAR CODEXES is insane, no matter how you slice it. I have a beautiful hardback book twice the size of a codex, filled with watercolors of WWII fighter aircraft. The paper is top knotch, the print is good and a decent size, and the book is extremely sturdy. It cost me a whopping 20 dollars. I defy you to figure out any sane reason why a codex with half the pages, half the size, and half the quality of the WWII book I own costs almost 2 and a 1/2 times as much.

This may not be a big deal to some, but I really think it's a sign that GW is truly losing it when it comes to how their prices should be set. It also does not set a good tone for how prices will go in the future. The 30 or so buck paperback codexes were a bit steep, but weren't completely insane. These hardbacks though are pushing it to the point where I'm afraid my eyebrows aren't just raised, they may just shoot off of my forehead and embed themselves in the ceiling. If they had a cheaper alternative, a "minidex" if you will, similar to how they did the mini 6th ed rulebook in Dark Vengeance, I'd be cool with it, but with no cheaper alternative, it's a little insane.

Also, in other news, after reading a PDF of the codex, the dragon flyer thing is growing on me slightly. Only fluffwise though. The model remains hideous. However, I would not be opposed to converting one and trying to match the badassery of how it's portrayed in the codex. It's a friggin dragon/pterodactyl daemonically possessed fighter aircraft where the pilot's soul has fused to become one with his machine, turning it into some hideous mix of machine and daemon. I will admit, that's a pretty good example of what chaos should be like.

I know he's always been very powerful, but Abaddon never had that many attacks though. At the most he could get 11 on a charge. Now he gets a steady stream of attacks with 13 being the maximum at ap 2.

On an average roll he's getting 10-11 attacks with any extras just being gravy. Oh and he has preffered enemy marines.

I'm starting to rethink my army plans.

Puscifer wrote:
Has anybody realised how overpowered Abaddon is?

He is just crazy. His points are way too low for his effectiveness.

D6 + 7 attacks on the charge at str 5 ap 2 or D6 + 6 on the counter charge with Drach'nyen.

With the Talon of Horus, he gets 7 str 8 shred attacks at ap 3 on a charge and 6 on counter attack.

Both of these are at initiative 6.

The guy is an absolute beast.

Oh and he makes chosen troops.

What a bargain.

I think most of the Uniques got REALLY good! Kharne got +1S AP2 and some new rules. Ahrimen gets Psyker 4 and drops 20 points.