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I just wanted to buy slaanesh wargear for my chaos lords....and I still can't.

They took infiltrate away from chosen....why?

Terminator champions have only 2 attacks
Chosen champions have only 2 attacks

If you are in combat when you get turned into a daemon prince, you are very likely to be killed due to not being able to be placed.

Possession doesn't protect passengers from stunned and shaken.

Land raider got more expensive...:why?

Daemon princes losing EW....I mean really? Just a huge slap in the face?

And abaddon has to choose between two weapons now....that sword doesn't seem like the kind of artifact that can sunder through a gate like in his fluff...

And how many ways are there to get hatred, just to make sure you wasted points buying it for your models?

Still no sacred numbers?
Noisemarines have to be 10 strong to get a blast master now?

The codex's best shooting units can't overwatch? (Sonic blasters, oblits, thousand sons)

And while people like to spout things like T6 bikes, it's not as simple as that. If you're a tzeentch player, then technically you really don't have access to those kind of units.

Palindrome wrote:

From wrote:

The only problem with this codex is it has more tables than the campus cafeteria and will likely slow the already slow 6th edition down to a crawl.

Perhaps if you have difficulty reading. The only remotely complex table is the Boon one and even thats not exactly taxing. Its more annoying that you now have to take the codex to games rather than simply your army list.

Learn to take a joke my snarky British friend.

You should always bring your codex and now you'll need to bring index cards and a pen to all of your competitive events to keep track of what model got what boon.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I know it's all opinions, and everybody has one that is equal to the next with the right to voice it, but it really does ruin a discussion when people are discussing the ups and downs of a unit and someone has to come in with a rage post about how they are going to quit, when a few months down the line they are still here playing, and still here raging on the internet. In any other retail business if people don't like a product they don't buy it, and that's it. But for some reason when it comes to wargames people feel the need to also make attention grabbing posts and waste valuable time on internet, raging over something they allegedly don't like.

Really, where is the sense in that? Forums are discussion boards; saying I don't like what they did with this unit because of such and such a valid point is both negative and discussing, but saying roar I'm going to rage quit because the business didn't psychicly know and implement my personal wish isn't. That's the sort of stuff that is getting tiresome to read every day just so I can find a post be it negative or positive that I can have a discussion about.

I'm pretty sure people would not like Dakka to turn into the new Whineseer.

I'm commenting on the codex, posting my "CSM codex thoughts" to be precise. If it's the one that will make me rage quit, my rage comment is on topic and as valuable for a feedback as yours, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
@Plumbumbarum: "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence."

You think? I would prefer it to be true in case of GW, I love their game but for example that Carnifex ultranerf is hard to explain unless they do not playtest and write codieces drunk.

Spellbound wrote:

They took infiltrate away from chosen....why?

I never understood why they had it in the first place.

Terminator champions have only 2 attacks
Chosen champions have only 2 attacks

It's similar to how sergeants are in loyalist marine veteran squads.

Palindrome wrote:

 pretre wrote:
What if there's a question about the rules? I mean, I know my main codexes backwards and forwards but sometimes you need to look something up.

Although for my part, I usually only play in my garage or at a tournament, so...

All I needed was on the printout or in the main rules. Its not as if the 5th ed 'dex was complex.

I'm not sure that's the point. I know that if I question my opponent on the rules of his codex, I want to see the codex, not his recollection of the rules, regardless of how well he knows it front to back. It came up in a tournament where two of my friends faced the same opponent who "knew his codex frontwards and backwards". They questioned him, he gave them the answer, and he was very wrong.

It's a courtesy to your opponents to be able to provide the codex, even if its not needed.

But hey, I don't have to play you, so it works out well.

parameters for writing a new codex.
We need to sell these new models. And the bread and butter guys must win.
So get writing
Cue defiler and landraider changes,
anything that can kill MEQ armies gets no overwatch.
Sorcerers are too strong, make them accept challenges.

SORTED

 MetalOxide wrote:
220pts for Defilers?!? But I run three of them!

No, base cost is lower than that. Defiler points cost did increase though. OTOH, it did gain Daemonforge and It Will Not Die. As for Land Raider, it got whopping 10 points more costly.

 Crimson wrote:

Spellbound wrote:

They took infiltrate away from chosen....why?

I never understood why they had it in the first place.

Back in the old, old dex you could buy veteran skills for your squads. Most of the chaos boons were old veteran skills, feel no pain, furious charge, infiltrate... They just got rid of veteran skills and piece mealed them out to different units. The old system was much better as you could customize your entire army.

From wrote:

You should always bring your codex and now you'll need to bring index cards and a pen to all of your competitive events to keep track of what model got what boon.

I haven't been to a competitive event since 2002.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, one of the best news is that the codex provides cheap troops (Zombies) with FnP. Such an option is new in a MEQ codex.

Unfortunately you can only take 10 per unit due to the wording in their rules. They are not alowwed any other options and taking extra zombies falls under other options...

Hopefully this is a brainfart and will be fixed in next FAQ.

I am loving the Mace and Murder Sword though. DP was looking pretty bad until I saw they can take these.

Dp can be double strength and AP 1 (well 2, same diff) anytime he wants.

Chosen had infiltrate because they were adept at putting themselves exactly where they needed to be for the battle. But to be honest I too liked the previous system where you could customize your entire army.

"MY veterans have furious charge and counterattack, because they engage in close quarters"

"Well mine take heavy weapons and have tank hunters and siege specialists"

"Mine worship KHORNE, so they have the mark of Khorne and furious charge"

"Mine worship slaanesh and have acute senses"


It worked much better. This...:this is just crap. Absolutely worthless codex. I really expected good things from the author of the "everything is free, by the way there's no drawbacks" space wolf book.

 Crimson wrote:

Spellbound wrote:

They took infiltrate away from chosen....why?

I never understood why they had it in the first place.

infiltration was what the original CSM veterans did
back in 2nd edition

As a Thousand Sons player , for the second time in a row , I'm utterly underwhelmed by this codex .

I'm liking the cheaper Sorcerors , but where was the "host of options" rumoured to be available for my Aspiring Sorceror ? Gift of Mutation and a slightly interesting pole ? And let's not get started on the Terminator weapon issue . I didn't spend all that cash getting the bitz needed and [badly] making headpieces for them only for 80% of them to be now illegal/not WYSIWYG .

On the plus side , I never owned a Defiler , any Obliterators or a Deamon Prince .

Yeah, I do not see any compelling thematic reason why the Chosen need infiltrate.

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, I do not see any compelling thematic reason why the Chosen need infiltrate.

There really isn't a compelling reason for them to not have it either.

I quite liked using it to represent Alpha Legion Elite special forces.

No more.

All gone now, like tears in rain...

I think that the new Chaos 'dex is the only one without any units that can inflitrate (unless you use a special character or get lucky with your warlord roll).

 pretre wrote:
@Plumbumbarum: "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence."

Except it's not incompetence. Gimping existing models to pimp new ones is GW Codex Design 101.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
@Plumbumbarum: "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be attributed to incompetence."

Except it's not incompetence. Gimping existing models to pimp new ones is GW Codex Design 101.

I don't know. One need only point at the Pyrovore to show that it's not a guarantee. Malice and Incompetence aren't mutually exclusive anyway.

Chrysis wrote:
I don't know. One need only point at the Pyrovore to show that it's not a guarantee. Malice and Incompetence aren't mutually exclusive anyway.

I never said they were any good at it, only that it is something they try to do. In fact, it's often worse when a new unit is bad (the Pyrovore being a great example), as it means that a previous good unit has been made worthless and its apparent replacement is no good either.

I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.

Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.

New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.

New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.

So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?

Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?

Spellbound wrote:
I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

What leaked PDF? These dude's have early copy of the codex and have been posting stuff...

Spellbound wrote:
I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.

Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.

New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.

New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.

So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?

Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?

Yeah, I do not get why they made this salvo. Should have just been an assault weapon, like you need to aim with sound? At least now it's pretty clear what the role of these guys will be, sit back and shoot.

To be fair though, I find that a lot of times in 6E now, I don't shoot at units before I charge in any case because the ones in the front die and you get overwatched and don't get the charge.

The whole denies cover thing, now that is cool, and it makes sense that a sound weapon would get it. Especially with all the ADL shenanigans out there.

Also if you can give them preferred enemy marines, with abaddon or w/e that is decent as well...

Spellbound wrote:
I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.

Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.

New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.

New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.

So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?

Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?

And you get it for 3 points where a Psycannon is 20.... so yes it's not going to be as good. PLUS you're comparing things to a stupidly overpowered Codex, so yes it's not going to match up (Thankfully). You're also getting the same model for 5 points left once you drop a Sonic Blaster. So if it gets worse but saves you 5 points, that's not terribly unreasonable. This seems like another case of "I didn't get everything I wanted" problems.

 kronk wrote:

Spellbound wrote:
I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

What leaked PDF? These dude's have early copy of the codex and have been posting stuff...

What do you mean? Of course they got the P... OOOHHHH uh yeah. No PDF here man, they just got an early copy of the Codex! Those sneaky sneaks!

Spellbound wrote:
I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.

Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.

New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.

New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.

So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?

Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?

Where are you getting that Salvo weapons can't be fired on overwatch? They are not blast or template weapons. They use the fires BS so it can be modified to a BS1.

I found nothing on pages 13 (snapfire), 21 (overwatch), and 52 (salvo) that prohibit firing sonic blasters on overwatch.

The largest nerf is the move and shoot. move +12" range is much more hampering than move +24" range. But maybe the no cover saves will make up for it. Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters are now pretty much relegated to objective sitters. A job that they probably will excel at. We will just have to find our move and shoot someplace else.

So if you fire a salvo weapon during overwatch, which value do you use for the number of shots?

I see nothing that prevents you from using the heavy option. Its not like you moved this turn.

Spellbound wrote:
I'm just hoping that the leaked PDF is a forgery and the real one will be better.

I mean compare new sonic blaster to old, or even to a bolter.

Old: assault 2/heavy 3, 24" range. So you could double tap and charge! And get 3 overwatch shots.

New bolter: move or not, 2 shots at 12 1 at 24. 2 overwatch shots. Can't charge after firing.

New sonic blaster: 24" salvo 2/3. So if you stand still, 3 shots to 24. If you move, two shots to 12. No charging after firing. NO OVERWATCH.

So it's worse than a bolter, costs extra, and can't fire overwatch?

Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?

"20 point/model 3 shot ignores cover bolter marines with i5"




"worse than a bolter"

Just give me those Chaos Spawn (w/ MoN) in my Daemons army and nothing else and I'd be happy.

I got some Chaos DV on the cheap and had some old 'rines in a box. I am not digging this new 'dex even though I like the DV models. Probably going to trade them away for Tau, IG, or Eldar... I only play Chaos Daemons to kit bash my own ideas of what each unit looks like (See my Fateweaver in my gallery).

I have no real connection to the fluff outside of wanting some cool noise marines and TSONS. However, I'm not really feeling either unit.

Typhus + Zombies looks fun, but if you look at Typhus' rules, cultists cant take options. So not only can you not give them MoN in a Nurgle themed army,... but you ALSO CANNOT take more than 10 as adding models is also listed under "options". I hope that's just me (and others) being RAW losers and that gets FAQ'd so I can run 35 man deep zombies with Nurgle Bikers and Nurgle Chaos Spawn... It'd be so much stupid fun.

Oh, and $50 for this? Pass.

I must have been confusing it with the no charging restriction. Sorry, so many restrictions and penalties to my "upgrades" it's hard to keep track.

Psycannon is a 10 point upgrade, no?

Ignores cover is of limited use on a weapon that allows armor saves. The blastmaster is much better - but i need 10 noisemarines to get one! Pretty ridiculous

And yes, situationally, worse than a bolter. Like if you moved that turn. But not even that, why is it worse than the previous sonic blaster? Nobody took them before, so you're going to make them worse? How does that make any sense at all?

And yes, I'm comparing that 20 point sonic blaster marine to the 20 point stormbolter-toting, force weapon-wielding grey knight that laughs at him, wielding ATSKNF, anti-psychic rules, close combat strength buff, anti-deepstrike rule, and preferred enemy for daemons as well as anti-daemon/psyker grenades.

You're telling me that's an equal comparison? I'm pretty sick already of "well don't compare them to a GOOD codex..." that's exactly what I'm comparing them to - other, actually competitive codexes.

Chosen: 18 points. Compare him to a wolf guard, same cost, same attacks, cheaper and better wargear options, as many special and power weapons as there are models in the squad, ATSKNF, acute senses, counter-attack, ability to be made scoring by special HQ choice, option for terminator armour. Where are our terminator chosen? What exactly are they chosen for, anyway?

Why would Phil Kelly, after making the wolves, turn around and charge us 10 points per meltagun again? Lower our leadership? Take fearless and Ld 10 away from oblits? Limit their firing options? He'll give any old wolf lord the ability to become EW but strip it away from our daemon princes? Then make them cost more, as well?

I mean I WOULD say they're trying to sell new models, but they made the damn things armor 12 and cost way too many points! And the lasher tentrils on the maulerfiend reduce the attacks of friendly models, too!

The only "You totally need to buy THIS now" unit I see at all are bikes due to their lower cost. Everything else just became points-slowed or was freshly made already points-slowed.

It's like you're speaking another language. I don't really know what to say to you except "THREE SHOTS IGNORES COVER".