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Every army gets Meltaguns for 10 points, Wolves are an exception.

I didn't say don't compare it to a "GOOD" codex, I said don't compare everything to a stupidly over powered Codex. I'm sorry that a new Codex comes out and it's not unbelievably facepalm killy.

And yes, some armies get options you don't. Howw boring would it be if every army got the exact same options? And a lot of the changes are BALANCING the Codex, not just buffing it, which is what updates should be. Daemon Princes were the Must Take for every CSM list. Obliterators very heavily run the Heavy Support section too. What he did is he balanced things out so that you have viable options for every section rather than "OK well for HQ I have to take this, for Elites I have to take this, for Heavy support, etc".

 ph34r wrote:
It's like you're speaking another language. I don't really know what to say to you except "THREE SHOTS IGNORES COVER".

Yup

DE reavers are really going to hate this unit. (hell pretty much everything in the DE codex including vehicles is really going to hate this unit)
Orks inside a KFF are really going to hate this unit.
Ork bikers are really going to hate this unit.
Any Guard unit behind an ADL are really going to hate this unit.
Kroot in a forest are really going to hate this unit.
Frensian Wolves are really going to hate this unit.
Eldar pathfinders/rangers are going to hate this unit.


Its a S4 gun (S5 if the target gets smacked with one of the slannesh psychic powers first) that ignores cover. I can see so many things that this weapon can hurt that its not even funny. Volume of fire hurts. The ten noise marines that you need to get the blastmaster are going to put out 27 shots, 18 hits that wound most things on a 3-4. Thats not exactly wasted firepower regardless if it gets an armor save or not.

Honesly, for myself, I'm probably not going to field any Blastmasters. They were an awesome weapon when you could take them in groups. But sadly if your shooting the S8 template at something, the rest of the guns in the squad probably don't have a target (due to range or toughness).

I personally see my troops coming in the form of 2 six man sonic blaster squads to camp on an objective and then 2 - 3 more in rhinos with doom sirens, dirge casters, and HTH options to get to the choppy fun bits. I5 and FNP is a lot of fun in HTH.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I personally see my troops coming in the form of 2 six man sonic blaster squads to camp on an objective and then 2 - 3 more in rhinos with doom sirens, dirge casters, and HTH options to get to the choppy fun bits. I5 and FNP is a lot of fun in HTH.

This. Small units to just stand there and obliterate kroot/IG/gants. In a primarily shooting/midfield army like mine, the ability to get hordes out of cover without running over to them and punching them out is very appealing.

 ph34r wrote:
It's like you're speaking another language. I don't really know what to say to you except "THREE SHOTS IGNORES COVER".

If it's not AP 2, it's not worth ignoring cover. It's worse than a bolter.

Different? How hard would it be, with all the super awesome "assault" units they've given us (in the edition of shooty rules all and assault is difficult to get to, btw), just to say this:

"The Chaos Legions do not follow the Codex Astartes, and have been known to extensively modify their equipment. Chaos Rhinos count as assault vehicles"

BAM, now chaos has something nobody else has. Now chaos can send their super deadly possessed and chosen into battle and actually be a force to be reckoned with, not pay 26+ points per model to still die like a marine and guarantee that they'll take a turn of fire plus overwatch from the enemy army.

That's just ONE change, a simple one, that would not only give chaos a different playstyle (assault, GO!) but wouldn't be overpowered. Up the cost of rhinos slightly, done deal.

And what's with "every 5, assault weapon. 10 or more, heavy weapon" what are we, Ultramarines? 1 per 5, 1 per 4 even. Encourage those larger than 10 squads, encourage the horde of traitors.

And the execution is terrible. Could they not say the spawn/prince created from the boon table stays in combat if it was in combat, like greater daemons used to? Now, if I take a lord with a powerfist, charge an enemy unit, let them pile in at their initiative, then kill their champion in a challenge and roll "daemon prince", I'm dead because my base is so large I can't be within 3" and outside of 1" of the enemy. Really? They never thought that through? Don't tell me a lone character shouldn't go after a unit because breaking the back of the enemy's mightiest champion while they watch is EXACTLY what chaos would do, and it's also exactly what any artificer-armoured imperial character can easily do to chaos units.

"Well, you couldn't get past my 2+ save, and I killed 3, so now I'll wipe out the other 17 models in a sweeping advance" yay....

Don't want to give us Blastmaster havocs? Fine, give us a blastmaster every 3 noisemarines. Now I can take fluffy squads of 6, 12, 18 and get several. Havoc-esque units in the troops selection.

"That's way too many blasts" Have you seen what Coteaz psyker spam can do? Dark Angels? Anyone with a few plasma cannons? It's nothing new and it would be another OPTION for "I want my army to look like this image in my head".

What about relentless combined with that new salvo sonic blaster? How cool would sonic blaster terminators or bikers be? Nope, that died in 3.5. Wouldn't want those units being too DIFFERENT now, would we?


And ok. I'll stop comparing it to the "stupid overpowered" codex. I'll compare to wolves instead.

Chaos mounts vs Thunderwolf mount. Discuss.

Choose your blessing of chaos - I'm sorry I mean "sagas" versus "I know you paid points for a lightning claw and hatred against space marines, now look! You rolled up "shred" and "hatred" don't you feel silly now?

Wolf guard vs chosen.

Long Fangs point cost versus havocs

Wolf guard with cyclone launchers versus chosen with missile launchers (just 1 per unit, and can't take flakk missiles)

Wolfen randomness: You'll get at least 3 attacks that rend. Vs daemon weapon randomness - if you roll a 1 you suck. Why can't the penalty be "dang, I paid 45 points and only got 1 more attack!"? Bring back mastery - oh, you killed someone, make a Ld check or take a wound. At the very LEAST you got ONE round of killing things the way your points cost suggests before bad luck eats you.

Speaking of eating you, don't get in a possessed landraider if you're a chaos lord! It kills you on a 1! Why does "fluffy" have to also equal "detrimental" for chaos?

Grey Hunter vs chaos marine that buys his ccw and veteran of the long war. Same attacks, one better ld on chaos, wolves get cheaper gear, counterattack, ATSKNF, acute senses. More for the same cost!

Let's switch gears and look at BA. Compare Death Company to anything chaos. Khorne berserker? Sorry buds, DC have more attacks and fnp on you, and can carry bolters if they want that they're relentless with.

Wait what was that? FNP infantry with relentless bolters? You don't say? 20 points? 2 attacks each? Seems there's another unit that's denial but not scoring with only 1 attack, pays extra for FNP that they lose if the icon gets sniped, and would really REALLY love to have relentless...heck I would even give up rage! Oh, but if they want 2 attacks they'll be 21 points, for the extra ccw.

10 DC = 200 points

10 Noisemarines with bolters and ccw with Slaanesh fnp icon = 220. And they don't have WS5, relentless, or rage. Just I5

10 Berserkers = 200, same number of cc attacks but no bolters for the strategic options and no FNP. Also only 1 powerfist on a champion that has to challenge. DC is a unit of champions essentially that can't be picked out, they just take their powerfists and smash away. We're not even getting into unit synergy with a chaplain and re-rolling and such.

And while those chaos units CAN be made scoring, points-wise they're paying for and are in slots in the army list as non-scoring, just contesting [like DC as well] units.


Random is fine. I like the possessed random table - 3 good, useful options. But I mean... I buy hatred for several units, costing me 30-60 points depending, then I roll hatred for my warlord trait, revealing I wasted most of those points? Then I roll hatred for my chaos boon mutation, meaning I wasted another 10 points?

If I pay points, I expect something good. It's an upgrade. I should be getting better the more points I cost. If you want a random table with detrimental effects, fine. But don't make me pay to get screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
6 man sonic blaster squad for anti-guard and kroot?

Didn't the guard and kroot move into 24" rapid-fire range and shoot you already?

I mean 20 kroot that's 10 hits, 5 wound, about 2 dead noisemarines,and if they moved cleverly [limiting return fire, easily done now with premeasuring]. Noisemarines can't move into range to fire because salvo halves their range!

What was the other example? Guard? Same deal I'd say, that guard special weapon team or command squad plus infantry blob can move forward and open fire on me before I get to use that sonic blaster.

Current rules, old sonic blaster, new point cost, I might have been ok with. Salvo? No way.

I think it's a bit unfair comparing each of the new chaos units to the strongest/most undercosted counterparts in each different codex. It's almost like you want your new chaos book to be stupidly overpowered and not wanting GW to even try making a balanced game, just so you can win against everyone else with ease. The only codices that needs to be brought in line is Necrons, GK, and to a lesser extent SW and IG. Most of these issues (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Strike Squads, Purifiers, Anihilation Barges, Doom Scythes, Manticores and Vendettas) could be solved with a few simple points adjustments, easily to be fixed by GW in an FAQ if they wanted to.

Spellbound wrote:
It worked much better. This...:this is just crap. Absolutely worthless codex. I really expected good things from the author of the "everything is free, by the way there's no drawbacks" space wolf book.

Chaos is not Space Wolves.

Spellbound wrote:
Let me get this straight - psycannon is S7 ap 4 rending assault 2 heavy 4, can shoot and charge, 4 overwatch shots, and we get THIS?

Chaos is not Grey Knights.

 loki old fart wrote:
parameters for writing a new codex.
We need to sell these new models. And the bread and butter guys must win.
So get writing
Cue defiler and landraider changes,
anything that can kill MEQ armies gets no overwatch.
Sorcerers are too strong, make them accept challenges.

SORTED

Bingo.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...

The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...

Yeah, expect the trend to last right up until the first Ward loyalist SM codex.

Spellbound wrote:
Dp can be double strength and AP 1 (well 2, same diff) anytime he wants.

Chosen had infiltrate because they were adept at putting themselves exactly where they needed to be for the battle. But to be honest I too liked the previous system where you could customize your entire army.

"MY veterans have furious charge and counterattack, because they engage in close quarters"

"Well mine take heavy weapons and have tank hunters and siege specialists"

"Mine worship KHORNE, so they have the mark of Khorne and furious charge"

"Mine worship slaanesh and have acute senses"


It worked much better. This...:this is just crap. Absolutely worthless codex. I really expected good things from the author of the "everything is free, by the way there's no drawbacks" space wolf book.

Whole heartily agree, read the codex and almost shed a tear...


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 Bonde wrote:
I think it's a bit unfair comparing each of the new chaos units to the strongest/most undercosted counterparts in each different codex. It's almost like you want your new chaos book to be stupidly overpowered and not wanting GW to even try making a balanced game, just so you can win against everyone else with ease. The only codices that needs to be brought in line is Necrons, GK, and to a lesser extent SW and IG. Most of these issues (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Strike Squads, Purifiers, Anihilation Barges, Doom Scythes, Manticores and Vendettas) could be solved with a few simple points adjustments, easily to be fixed by GW in an FAQ if they wanted to.

But they won't and its not wrong to try to compare the units from this book to those books. We are paying a premium for our book which is supposed to last us until the next edition (maybe another 5+ years) and those are the armies we are going to have to play against. And judging from the book, CSM probably still wont be able to beat Crons, SW, GK, and IG reliably because the codex is just a rehash of the last with some new bits and some arguably worse changes. We don;t want to stomp everyone out there, we just want to be as noncompetitive as these other armies....

I think it's going to take a bit more creativity to be effective, but to spite the folks who had fluffy lists in mind based on the "sacred numbers of Chaos," make new units that are polarizing in looks, and really not make anything truly feel "Chaos" without being random, a possibly negative outcome, or spendy.

I play Daemons because I like the random element and a bit of zaniness. I was interested in adding on Marines to make a fluffy/fun time, but I don't really feel for any of the units because they are so damned expensive because they are specialist + marine tax.

Warp Talons for example... okay, they all have dual claws, jump packs, and 3+/5++. They are costed at almost twice an assault marine, less flexibility, and will STILL die to a torrent of fire.

Oh, but they blind people they deep strike in that are within 6"!

K? I play an entire army that deep strikes. AVG Scatter is 7". Why would I tempt them never coming in or being shoved in a corner? Oh, and so you blind someone within 6"... so my dudes in the Rhino are probably fine, get out, and then torrent them down. And yes, I am a Space Wolf player. So I don't really fear specialist guys because Grey Hunters are "WTF, Swiss Army Knives".

This codex is a bummer.

I don't get Warp Talons. There is a level you reach where the points cost doesn't 'balance' any inherent abilities or weapons they've been given, and at the end if the day despite their 5+(I) save they're still just Assault Marines. I'd've rather they were an upgrade to Raptors.

I didn't need everything to be wtf broken at all. I wanted my troops to stay good but stay cheap. I wanted sonic blasters to be better than a storm bolter. I wanted to be able to turn every unit in my army into a sonic something or other.

I wanted my LORD to be able to take a damn sonic weapon, or SOME kind of slaaneshi weapon, good god!!

I wanted a bonus for staying pure and making every unit in the army Slaaneshi, rather than saying "well you can take Lucius, and noisemarines. That's all that's in an emperor's children army right?"

I wanted the mark of slaanesh to DO things for everyone. Make my powerfists strike at initiative 2, just to have that edge on other power fists. To actually have a reason to give the mark to obliterators, ever, perhaps?

I wanted obliterators to stay fearless and not have their ld dropped to 8. You know, so that after losing ONE I didn't risk falling back. Without ATSKNF they'll only snapfire the turn they regroup and can't charge - crippling!!

I wanted sonic dreadnoughts, so that cool forgeworld kit actually meant I could use it. Dreads with blast masters or combat dreads with doom siren and initiative 5, or at least the frag grenade aura that the daemonettes have.

There we go - I wanted my new initiative 8 daemon prince to not be initiative 1 because there was a branch in the way. I wanted a way to become toughness 6 because its a frickin' daemon prince. I'll pay 20 points, whatever.

I wanted a 2+ armor save without having to be a terminator or rolling on a chart, so I could stand a damn chance in a duel with a basic space marine captain.

The list goes on, but none of those things are stupidly overpowered.

As it is, if this list only made rhinos assault vehicles due to "non-codex modifications" by the traitors and lost the self-repair rule, it would at least be usable. Combat-oriented marines, berserkers, possessed, chosen, these would all actually be scary then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't get Warp Talons. There is a level you reach where the points cost doesn't 'balance' any inherent abilities or weapons they've been given, and at the end if the day despite their 5+(I) save they're still just Assault Marines. I'd've rather they were an upgrade to Raptors.

GW has a huge hardon for invul saves.

"This model has a 1/3 chance to shrug off a D-cannon hit!!"

But it dies just the same to a bolter....

Wow... Where's that Waaaaaaambulance?!! We have a serious mass crybaby incident!

Someone must have changed our name to Whineseer while the Mods weren't looking...

Stay cla--- mature, Dakkanauts.

Spellbound wrote:
As it is, if this list only made rhinos assault vehicles due to "non-codex modifications" by the traitors and lost the self-repair rule, it would at least be usable. Combat-oriented marines, berserkers, possessed, chosen, these would all actually be scary then.

If you made Rhinos Assault vehicles it would be extremely powerful and the cost would definitely need to go up a lot. Becoming an assault vehicle is pretty great in this edition.

I don't know what else to say to you without being rude so... If you don't like it, complaining won't change it. So just play your Slaanesh, find another army, or play another game.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...

The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...

Yeah, expect the trend to last right up until the first Ward loyalist SM codex.

Well, they've kept the trend up in Fantasy through 5 books so far!

Of corse, You Know Who hasn't had a go at any of them yet, so you're probably right that we'll get CSM's, DA's, Tau & Eldar being well rounded and balanced, then He'll write something like SW's and make them into 'Codex: Grey Knights +11'!
Or god forbid, he writes the new Daemon book... (at which point my Daemon army will go on the shelf for fear of it being tossed out a window & repeatedly driven over with a cement truck by absolutely everyone and their mothers.)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I have a feeling that CSM's is going to herald a new era of codices that become very much like the new 8th edition Fantasy books...

The real question is can GW keep this trend up. So far, out of the 5 Army Books that have been updated in Fantasy, one author has remained suspiciously absent as a lead author...

Yeah, expect the trend to last right up until the first Ward loyalist SM codex.

Well, they've kept the trend up in Fantasy through 5 books so far!

Of corse, You Know Who hasn't had a go at any of them yet, so you're probably right that we'll get CSM's, DA's, Tau & Eldar being well rounded and balanced, then He'll write something like SW's and make them into 'Codex: Grey Knights +11'!
Or god forbid, he writes the new Daemon book... (at which point my Daemon army will go on the shelf for fear of it being tossed out a window & repeatedly driven over with a cement truck by absolutely everyone and their mothers.)

Let him write it. At the very least some part of chaos would be interesting and unique as it is.

Well, 9 pages before Ward bashing. Good times, i guess?

I should get my copy Monday. Can't freaking wait!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Wow... Where's that Waaaaaaambulance?!! We have a serious mass crybaby incident!

Someone must have changed our name to Whineseer while the Mods weren't looking...

Sorry, you're right.

All criticism of the Chaos Codex is banned from this point forward. Only adoration and highly positive compliments will be allowed.

Well, I think we're done here for now.

Book's out tomorrow so you can have a read of it at last.....

.................... ....

.... yes ?


I'm sure there'll be various threads relating to it, tactical discussions etc etc as per usual.