Is there any way these things can be made useful?

Glue some guns on them and call them oblits?

Super melee lord, max mutilators, in a Land Raider...I think it's as good as it gets.

Only problem? There are other options to do the same thing and probably do way more.

Edit:

 Baldsmug wrote:
Glue some guns on them and call them oblits?

We have a winner.

 Kasrkin52 wrote:
Is there any way these things can be made useful?

glue some coins under the base so they function as better paperweights.


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 Kasrkin52 wrote:
Is there any way these things can be made useful?

wait for the 7th edition codex to come out where they revamp the rules so they are actually good.


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 Kasrkin52 wrote:
Is there any way these things can be made useful?

put them next to your mandrakes so they can have a tea party

Woah... I thought they were good units.

They might be viable if you could take a unit size of 5 or 6. At max 3 they're just too fragile/slow/overpriced. Slow and Purposeful on an assault unit sucks, especially when your only transport option is an overpriced LR.

TERRIBLE.

With that out of the way, er, try them, er uh with,... um.
I don't have a clue. These guys are just bad. The price is just so high for no real reason. Terminators fill this role about 30 times better for a much lower price. And can shoot.

I would suggest that if you got these as a gift, take them back to the store and get ANYTHING else in the codex.

They are almost comically bad, yes. Probably the low point of the new units in the book, right there with Warp Talons.

If you're dead set on using them, marking them Nurgle so they can avoid insta-death and having them escort Typhus may be an option. You can put him in front and shift wounds his FNP fails at to them, one model at a time, to keep everyone alive.

"shift wounds his FNP fails at"? I'm not sure what this is intended to mean, but it sounds like a rules error.

 Mannahnin wrote:
They might be viable if you could take a unit size of 5 or 6. At max 3 they're just too fragile/slow/overpriced. Slow and Purposeful on an assault unit sucks, especially when your only transport option is an overpriced LR.

and being breakable. for 55 points a model they should at least be ld 10 and stuborn.


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Puscifer wrote:
Woah... I thought they were good units.

hopefully you didnt run out and buy 9 in a rush...


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 Sephyr wrote:

They are almost comically bad, yes. Probably the low point of the new units in the book, right there with Warp Talons.

If you're dead set on using them, marking them Nurgle so they can avoid insta-death and having them escort Typhus may be an option. You can put him in front and shift wounds his FNP fails at to them, one model at a time, to keep everyone alive.

first, warp talons are bad, but better than mutilators. Night and day. I could see actually using warp talons once in a blue moon.

sounds like cheating to me

I'm thinking if you already picked up the models try using them as a single model unit hiding it behind a rhino. 1 mok can add a good amount of combat resolution when something is already being charged by another unit. That being said I wouldn't buy any myself.

 Sephyr wrote:
You can put him in front and shift wounds his FNP fails at to them, one model at a time, to keep everyone alive.

Not legal. He can't take saves for the rest of the squad and then pass on unsaved wounds. If he takes the save, he takes the wound.

I just had a steam conversation about this:

Try feeding them TH&SS. With a healthy diet they might be able to grow them eventually.
Wait, but that would be double TH or double SS?
Re-rollable 3+ Invul? plus MoT? GAK! that would be Fething awesome!

 Kasrkin52 wrote:
Is there any way these things can be made useful?

Make them out of plastic?

 Mannahnin wrote:
"shift wounds his FNP fails at"? I'm not sure what this is intended to mean, but it sounds like a rules error.

I think he means that you can put typhus in the front and "look out sir" for every wound he gets with all mutilators one at the time.

I have a box of them, so I'm going to give them a shot.

If they don't work out, they'll just be counts as Oblits.

shogun wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
"shift wounds his FNP fails at"? I'm not sure what this is intended to mean, but it sounds like a rules error.

I think he means that you can put typhus in the front and "look out sir" for every wound he gets with all mutilators one at the time.

you can shift wounds from typhus, but only before he tries his FNP. after FNP he has to keep them.


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 schadenfreude wrote:
I'm thinking if you already picked up the models try using them as a single model unit hiding it behind a rhino. 1 mok can add a good amount of combat resolution when something is already being charged by another unit. That being said I wouldn't buy any myself.

eats up elite slots, but I guess it might work. They had so much potential but just fall flat, really flat.

Based on how i've used soladins and lone wolves in the past I can see a use for a 61 point disruption unit. but that is pretty much it I think.

there biggest problem is such small units 3 men aint enough especially as you can't give them FNP so AP2 will just rip em apart however if i was going to run em id try 2 or even 3 units of 3 and deep strike em obviously this is costly 450+pts for 9 and they have to endure a turn of shooting with adequate support 6 of em could easily crack a good amount of skulls but terminators do the same for less all i can say is give em a whirl

Theyre usefull in making possessed look efficient. Maybe that was the plan all along?

I'm thinking one or two Tzeentched or Nurgled is the way to go. DS them and use them as a Heavy Support hunter/Rear Objective denier. They are one of the few DSing units in the Dex so their is definitely room for them in the right army, plus they are flexible enough to challenge Long Fangs and Psyfleman alike, which is one clear advantage over other units that perform a similar role. SNP is unfortunate, but with good placement you should be fine. Plus, especially if you only bring one, you can get real brave with your DS placement, as a bad role isn't as big of an investment risk.




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Also, one clear advantage they have over Terms is they are much cheaper on a points per wound basis. 22 to 30 points per wound, with the CC flexibility, the fact they bring their special CC weapons in pairs and therefore always get the extra attack (rare for things like chainfists), are all pretty solid things. Plus, really all the Marks have potential on them, though the affermentioned Tzeentch and Nrugle stand out because they are likely to get shot, a lot. Still, SNP is really the Achilles heel. I would play a few games with just one before completely writing them off though.

EDIT Again: I'm still thinking of 5th edition SNP. 6th edition simply is you can't run, or sweep (which no Term can)...that's...really not that big of a deal. You should be deploying in assault range anyway...

Wait, I thought that mutilators were somewhat decent?
I had a plan of sticking them in a LR with a dual LC terminator lord with MoN. I would also give the Mutilators MoN, so they got T5 and therefore immune to ID from str 8-9 hits, making their two wound go a much longer way. The reason why I wanted to do this is because they are always armed right for the job. The terminators can specialize against taking out either 3+ saves and strike at int 4 or specialize in killing 2+ saves and always hit at int 1. Then again, with MoN, the Mutilators become pretty expensive at 61 points per dude. That's almost 2 regular terminators with no upgrades, and they still only hit as hard as one dude.

If you just want a meatshield spawn are much better. If you want an assault unit terminators or bikers are much better.

These guys really have no role being too expensive and too limited.

The disruption idea is the only decent one I can think of. They can interrupt heavy weapon units for a turn, leaving any other big targets in your force untouched. If that unit doesn't take them down they'll get charged and they rarely have the kind of close combat punch to survive that, even against one model.

Pros:
This is quite cheap, even with 2 models it's cheaper than your average Vanguard squad.
2+ save and 2 wounds makes them slightly more durable against certain targets (say, all missile launcher Long Fangs which are of course AP3).

Cons:
You'd have to Deep Strike, so timing isn't guaranteed.
Against any targets with AP2 weaponry, they're going to easily get shot down in that one turn.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Also, one clear advantage they have over Terms is they are much cheaper on a points per wound basis. 22 to 30 points per wound, with the CC flexibility, the fact they bring their special CC weapons in pairs and therefore always get the extra attack (rare for things like chainfists), are all pretty solid things. Plus, really all the Marks have potential on them, though the affermentioned Tzeentch and Nrugle stand out because they are likely to get shot, a lot. Still, SNP is really the Achilles heel. I would play a few games with just one before completely writing them off though.

EDIT Again: I'm still thinking of 5th edition SNP. 6th edition simply is you can't run, or sweep (which no Term can)...that's...really not that big of a deal. You should be deploying in assault range anyway...

Not being able to run in a unit that can't take a dedicate LR is a bit of a bummer, especially if their Deep Strike scatters off-target; if they could run, you could at least adjust the arrival position a bit in the shooting phase to get cover or prepare a good charge.

And thy may have more wounds-per-point than terminators, but termis also get twin-linked bolters, cheap combis, cand dedicate a LR to help unclog your Heavy Support section and have better LD, not to mention a higher unit size.

Termites are 31 points a wound
mutilators are 27.5 points a wound

Termites are 15.5 points per attack
Mutilators are 18.3 points per attack

Mutilators dont need weapons, but they cant shoot either. The potential ID and the lack of a unit champion are both surely felt.

They should either have a 4+ invul or 3 attacks and wounds per base to get anywhere near competitive. Also their unit size should be 5 and they should be fearless.

 Exergy wrote:
Termites are 31 points a wound
mutilators are 27.5 points a wound

Termites are 15.5 points per attack
Mutilators are 18.3 points per attack

Mutilators dont need weapons, but they cant shoot either. The potential ID and the lack of a unit champion are both surely felt.

They should either have a 4+ invul or 3 attacks and wounds per base to get anywhere near competitive. Also their unit size should be 5 and they should be fearless.

Right. even with the slight edge they have over terminators in PPW they still have to worry about S8 plus weapons, where one wound terminators don't really care. For the cost of an elite slot I can't really see fielding a lone mutilator, even as a distraction unit. Not when I can drop 3 terminators with combi-melta or combi-plasma for not too many more points.

Granted if you have a free slot and a spare 50ish points a single mutlitator might accomplish something deepstriking in near your opponent. Unfortunately he won't be any threat to armor as they can just drive away from him. He might be able to catch a heavy weapons squad, but not if they run, since he can't. So even in that role he is mostly avoidable.

Still, he could prove a minor irritant and actually draw a round of shooting or an assault away from something more important.

They should either have a 4+ invul or 3 attacks and wounds per base to get anywhere near competitive. Also their unit size should be 5 and they should be fearless.

They can have a 4+ Invuln, with MoT, and don't they take their specialist weapons in pairs, giving them +1 attack (might be wrong on that)?

Granted if you have a free slot and a spare 50ish points a single mutlitator might accomplish something deepstriking in near your opponent. Unfortunately he won't be any threat to armor as they can just drive away from him. He might be able to catch a heavy weapons squad, but not if they run, since he can't. So even in that role he is mostly avoidable.

Many builds are filling Elite last (ie not at all), and if you're getting a Heavy Weapon squad to run with a 55(+mark) unit...you're winning Charlie Sheen style.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They should either have a 4+ invul or 3 attacks and wounds per base to get anywhere near competitive. Also their unit size should be 5 and they should be fearless.

They can have a 4+ Invuln, with MoT, and don't they take their specialist weapons in pairs, giving them +1 attack (might be wrong on that)?

they can, but to be playable they should be able to get a 3++.
as is they are just terminators with 2 wounds and morphable weapons in small packages.

paladins are not comparable as they can shoot(rather well actually) have WS5 a better invuln and ID. They have access to really cheap weapons as well, have psykic powers and have ATSKNF. You can also take them in a useful sized unit.

Deepstriking into your opponent's backline to cause max disruption seems the best use of them to me - against most opponents they're likely to have some suitable targets.

Hmm, deepstriking mutilators _and_ obliterators could be even more amusing - but sadly also very dice-dependent...

Trick opponents into thinking they're Oblits and letting them absorb lots of shooting attacks?

Honestly, these guys looked like an accident when processing Oblits. Like they just run all over, and someone at GW said, "You know what...?"

I think it was Mitch Hedburg (RIP) that said, "Pringles didn't always make potato chips. They wanted to sell tennis balls, but when the truck pulled up it brought potatoes, and they said, 'F*** it, cut 'em up!'"

 Clang wrote:
Deepstriking into your opponent's backline to cause max disruption seems the best use of them to me - against most opponents they're likely to have some suitable targets.

Hmm, deepstriking mutilators _and_ obliterators could be even more amusing - but sadly also very dice-dependent...

Deepstriking terminators with combi-melta or combi-plasma would be a heck of a lot more effective though. Heck even the heavy flamer would.

Bring Huron and Typhus. Give Infiltrate to Typhus and put him in a squad of Mutilators. Infiltrate as close to enemy as possible.

Be sure to send other distractions to the enemy first turn ie Daemon allies, bikes, etc, so the Mutilators don't take all the enemy's fire power.

That's about the only way I can see them working.

One thing that baffles me is how they aren't a very good opposite to Oblits. I mean they are supposed to be the CC version of Oblits, but fail for a few key reasons.

1.) CC weapons don't really seem to have much variety, so you basically have 2 real choices.

2.) Oblits, even though they are Long Range focused, HAVE A CC WEAPON! And a decent one too, not great at blobs but still packs a punch.

and since they don't have True Termie armor they can't be deepstruck, even if they could it'd be pointless since the slow mutilators could only shamble and get shot that turn.

Maybe if they let them deepstrike and gave them a HeavyFlamer for free.

Agreed, although Mutilators don't really compete with Oblits in an army list, in that they're in different force organization slots. So maybe that's GW's concept - you can fill your elite slots with CC Mutilators or fill your heavy slots with shooty Oblits, or any combination or both.

But yes, if you want 2+ Saves and Deep Striking, Oblits or termies give nearly as good CC and obviously more shooting, so it's still not obvious why Mutilators are a batter choice - they're just not enough of a CC monster to compensate for the lack of shooting. Maybe they'll get some better stats next codex

 Savageconvoy wrote:
One thing that baffles me is how they aren't a very good opposite to Oblits. I mean they are supposed to be the CC version of Oblits, but fail for a few key reasons.

1.) CC weapons don't really seem to have much variety, so you basically have 2 real choices.

2.) Oblits, even though they are Long Range focused, HAVE A CC WEAPON! And a decent one too, not great at blobs but still packs a punch.

and since they don't have True Termie armor they can't be deepstruck, even if they could it'd be pointless since the slow mutilators could only shamble and get shot that turn.

Maybe if they let them deepstrike and gave them a HeavyFlamer for free.

Mutilators have the Deepstrike special rule.

If they still made lead models they would be useful as a throwing implement against imperialist facists

they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

 Bloodecho wrote:
they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

This is silly, they are 22% cheaper then Oblits and can take the perfect CC weapon for the job instead of being forced to take PFists. Mutilators have their issues, but don't post completely inaccurate hyperbole just to make an inane point. Oblits can take Lightning Claws into Long Fangs and then turn around and take Chain Fists into Psyflman dreads. They really are an ideal Heavy Weapon hunter as they can take on anything they might face. Again, they aren't prefect, not having SNP would help them cover ground better, but a DSing CC unit that can adapt to any situation he faces and can take marks to boost his survivability/attack power is far from worthless.

No they are pretty worthless. They can't take on anything of note because anything can just walk away from them. While shooting them.

At least oblits or terminators can get off some melta or plasma shots before they die. The tactic was called 'termicide' for a reason. Not because the chaos player wanted them to die. Deepstriking three dangerous models into the enemy deployment zone tends to attract some attention.

Kevlar wrote:
No they are pretty worthless. They can't take on anything of note because anything can just walk away from them. While shooting them.

At least oblits or terminators can get off some melta or plasma shots before they die. The tactic was called 'termicide' for a reason. Not because the chaos player wanted them to die. Deepstriking three dangerous models into the enemy deployment zone tends to attract some attention.

That's why you don't deepstrike 3. You deepstrike 1 with MoT or MoN, and you do it next to a HS slot that is going to lose fire power if it "just walks away," and you should be putting it into a position where "walking away" from it moves units in the direction of the rest of your army/or away from an objective. Also, you play it pretty aggressively as the unit is cheap enough to make the risk/reward worth it.

Lastly, they move 6" Assault 2d6", that's not as easy as people seem to think to get away from.


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Oh, and FTR, it takes ~55 Bolter shots to kill one MoN Muti...so "just shoot it"..."while walking away" is easier said then done.

Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

Yeah, 15p. more, add them MoN and you've a unit doing the Mutilator purpose but better.

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

Yeah, 15p. more, add them MoN and you've a unit doing the Mutilator purpose but better.

How are Oblits doing CC, better? They're not. In fact, the last thing you would want is for Oblits to be tied up in melee.

15 points adds up pretty quick to 45 points if we're talking a full unit here.

Each one have 2 attacks, (and think of it about 3 mutilators vs 3 obliterators), they went out of a LR, in shooting, mutilators do nothing. Obliterators do shoot, whatever weapon you choose.

Let's say they've MoN, which makes them T5.

Then, in assault, you're charging with 3 T5 with powerfist. 9 attacks in total.

With mutilators, you only asault, and have 3 T5 models with a weapon of your choice, 12 attacks.

Now compare 12 attacks vs:

9 attacks and
12 AC shots
3 melta shots
6 plasma shots (at short range)
etc.

And that without Abaddon in the same unit, that makes them one of the most powerful units in the Chaos codex.

As I've said, we tried them yesterday vs a squad of 6 paladins and Draigo, vs Abby&muti or &obli.

The obliterators just "obliterated" the paladins, while the mutilators caused damage but didn't take the squad.

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

Yeah, 15p. more, add them MoN and you've a unit doing the Mutilator purpose but better.

How are Oblits doing CC, better? They're not. In fact, the last thing you would want is for Oblits to be tied up in melee.

15 points adds up pretty quick to 45 points if we're talking a full unit here.

its 15 points on a 55 point model.



honestly imho the only nice thing about mutes is that they take an elite slot instead of a HS.

Give mutilators the ability to assault after deep strike

Give possessed the ability to assault after disembarking.

Give warp talons ability to assault after deep strike.

There, i just made 3 worthless units competitive and almost worth their points/risk. GW do you notice the trend with melee exclusive units? Please fix.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Bloodecho wrote:
they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

This is silly, they are 22% cheaper then Oblits and can take the perfect CC weapon for the job instead of being forced to take PFists. Mutilators have their issues, but don't post completely inaccurate hyperbole just to make an inane point. Oblits can take Lightning Claws into Long Fangs and then turn around and take Chain Fists into Psyflman dreads. They really are an ideal Heavy Weapon hunter as they can take on anything they might face. Again, they aren't prefect, not having SNP would help them cover ground better, but a DSing CC unit that can adapt to any situation he faces and can take marks to boost his survivability/attack power is far from worthless.

If your list needs this point heavy a unit to take care of a 5 man heavy weapons team I think you may want to reread your codex, they're garbage.

Here is the clincher though, obliterators shoot very well and do a decent job at combat. Mutilators do a great job at CC but CAN"T shoot.

This is why Oblits are with out a doubt better even if a bit more per base. "mutilators can make LC for long fangs and chainfists for dreadnoughts"... again a turn after they DS while oblits can make AC for long fangs and TL melta guns for dreads the turn they hit. Oops, I scattered thats ok I'll morph multimelts instead

Deep striking mutialtors has higher risk, you need them to be closer to the enemy then oblits.

Oblits also can shoot after they arrive, or turn one if deployed. If you deep strike mutilators then the soonest they will assault is turn 3. Sorry but shooting was great in 5th and better in 6th, termicide is still the best method for disruption as they have an impact on the turn they arrive which means even if they get nerfed they had a chance to disrupt beyond drawing fire.

Give Warptalons grenades and forget about DS.
throw Mutilators out, let them assault out of DS, or... give them Init 3 AP2 weapons of any kind and base S5 T5.

The problem is that to do what a Mutilator can do (i.e. disrupt the enemy support units) you have to give up a heavy slot. Generally a heavy slot well filled with 5 havocs toting 4 autocannons for a ridiculous 115pts.

Personally Mutilators are gold for disruption. They are cheap, have a solid number of attacks, and will excel at dropping support units. And if vehicles and support units are moving away you count every shot not fired as points paid back.

And remember that they likely won't be alone up close. These models take nasty potential shots off your lord leading a spawn/bike unit as well. Don't judge as a single unit. Judge what it provides in an army.

Oh, and a termicide unit costs 81% more. That's without marks or equipment on either model. Why waste more points on disruption than you have to.

 Hulksmash wrote:
The problem is that to do what a Mutilator can do (i.e. disrupt the enemy support units) you have to give up a heavy slot. Generally a heavy slot well filled with 5 havocs toting 4 autocannons for a ridiculous 115pts.

Personally Mutilators are gold for disruption. They are cheap, have a solid number of attacks, and will excel at dropping support units. And if vehicles and support units are moving away you count every shot not fired as points paid back.

And remember that they likely won't be alone up close. These models take nasty potential shots off your lord leading a spawn/bike unit as well. Don't judge as a single unit. Judge what it provides in an army.

Oh, and a termicide unit costs 81% more. That's without marks or equipment on either model. Why waste more points on disruption than you have to.

not sure how they excel at dropping support units.
They drop at best turn 2, perhaps 3 or 4. They have to sit there for a turn, where any melta can ID them, or they can be boltered or they can be assaulted by something that can take them. then full turn later they might be able to move in and assault. Even in assault, they are likely striking last because of cover and nades, then they get 3 attacks which might hit and then are likely to do a few wounds but they might not. They could just as easily be running or dead. If they do manage to break something they cannot pursue. Even if they do win, their late attack means that the back field unit is going to get 2-4 turns of shooting in unmolested.

 wearelegion wrote:
Give mutilators the ability to assault after deep strike

Give possessed the ability to assault after disembarking.

Give warp talons ability to assault after deep strike.

There, i just made 3 worthless units competitive and almost worth their points/risk. GW do you notice the trend with melee exclusive units? Please fix.

/thread, basically. lol

Listen to this man, GW. Please!

 Exergy wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
The problem is that to do what a Mutilator can do (i.e. disrupt the enemy support units) you have to give up a heavy slot. Generally a heavy slot well filled with 5 havocs toting 4 autocannons for a ridiculous 115pts.

Personally Mutilators are gold for disruption. They are cheap, have a solid number of attacks, and will excel at dropping support units. And if vehicles and support units are moving away you count every shot not fired as points paid back.

And remember that they likely won't be alone up close. These models take nasty potential shots off your lord leading a spawn/bike unit as well. Don't judge as a single unit. Judge what it provides in an army.

Oh, and a termicide unit costs 81% more. That's without marks or equipment on either model. Why waste more points on disruption than you have to.

not sure how they excel at dropping support units.
They drop at best turn 2, perhaps 3 or 4. They have to sit there for a turn, where any melta can ID them, or they can be boltered or they can be assaulted by something that can take them. then full turn later they might be able to move in and assault. Even in assault, they are likely striking last because of cover and nades, then they get 3 attacks which might hit and then are likely to do a few wounds but they might not. They could just as easily be running or dead. If they do manage to break something they cannot pursue. Even if they do win, their late attack means that the back field unit is going to get 2-4 turns of shooting in unmolested.

Right, they drop after the enemy has moved forward, and probably gotten their counter assault unit lined up to take on your lords retinue
They have to sit there for a turn and cop fire which isn't coming towards your forces already on the field, and if you want to assault a CC specialist with terminator armor saves, your doing it with something that isn't going for my lord and his retinue.
Even in assault, they are likely striking last if every single piece of terrain is area terrain. Last time I checked not every piece of terrain was area terrain. Whilst striking last sucks if it does happen, you are wearing TDA essentially so the majority of things forcing our 5++ save will swing with you, at the same time as your pair of chainfists.
Their late deepstrike means when they DO land, those LF's are going to go "keep putting missiles into army approaching, or try to stave off death?"
And besides that, why are we using LF's as a backfield unit? They drop like flys, 5-6 man MEQ squads don't last long. At least mine don't!

It's LD8 and a lack of fearless that kills it for me.

@Exergy

I'm not going to argue with you buddy. Feel free to not use them. However having played with other, similar disruption units I can see their worth. I'm not here to force ideas. Just pointing out their value when most people seem to be ignoring it.

 Bloodecho wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Bloodecho wrote:
they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

This is silly, they are 22% cheaper then Oblits and can take the perfect CC weapon for the job instead of being forced to take PFists. Mutilators have their issues, but don't post completely inaccurate hyperbole just to make an inane point. Oblits can take Lightning Claws into Long Fangs and then turn around and take Chain Fists into Psyflman dreads. They really are an ideal Heavy Weapon hunter as they can take on anything they might face. Again, they aren't prefect, not having SNP would help them cover ground better, but a DSing CC unit that can adapt to any situation he faces and can take marks to boost his survivability/attack power is far from worthless.

If your list needs this point heavy a unit to take care of a 5 man heavy weapons team I think you may want to reread your codex, they're garbage.

If you think using a 61 point model to take out a 115+ point HS slot is a "point heavy" investment, I think you may want to relearn how to play the game.

I'm thinking of an In-your-face chaos list, that has a Juggerlord+spawn with axe of blind fury and the dimensional key, and several units of obliterators deepstriking in...

so in this list it might actually not be so bad, to have a one man mutilator unit deepstriking in. the more deepstrikers i have means the more possibility that the key goes off... and I can deepstrike that one mutilator in the back of some tanks, for example, or next to my obliterators to deter any counter-attack units (that would also be distracted by my juggerlord). Especially since the elite slots are not my first choice for this kind of list ( I can totally max out on fast attack and hvy alone).

It might not be terrible to have a bit of mutilators wreaking havoc with some careful manouvering. Not to mention, they go well with spawn, zombies, and other stuff that tends to just get tied down in combat. Even one mutilator can have the extra punch to break that stalemate.

in a combo with fast moving units like raptors or bikers deep striking mutilators could work the raptors can pin units down the mutilators crack skulls

Good point, maybe Mutilators are a lot more useful when used in conjunction with another unit. But that introduces additional problems in getting both units to the same place at the same time. Raptors or bikers do seem good candidates...

I think a slaaneshi lord with a steed escorted by bikers would make a good companion to disrupt lines alongside mutilators. Especially if you can dominate the midfield and pen as much of them in their deployment. Works with SW!

Wow a unit might require synergy to be effective. What an amazing new concept.

I think it might actually be interesting to drop typhus with a unit of mutilators with mark of nurgle in my enemies back field.

They're infantry, so you could always Infiltrate them with Huron or Ahriman to get them up close and draw attention away from your advancing troops.

Mindshred wrote:
They're infantry, so you could always Infiltrate them with Huron or Ahriman to get them up close and draw attention away from your advancing troops.

Not a bad idea, but in that case you usually should want to infiltrate the troops themselves and just deepstrike the mutilators.

I'm totally sold on the fluff and aesthetics. I'm thinking I'll only likely take one as something to spend a spare 50-odd pts on when I'm not going heavy on the Termies and Chosen, and use it for the distraction purpose already stated. They'll be a useful source of Marks, too (my pantheist Word Bearers will only have Marks on Daemon units).

 Clang wrote:
Good point, maybe Mutilators are a lot more useful when used in conjunction with another unit. But that introduces additional problems in getting both units to the same place at the same time. Raptors or bikers do seem good candidates...

Or maybe they actually worsen good units, making them have to wait around for SnP assaulters, or rely on your Deep Strike arriving when and where you want it. When you could just have taken bikers or raptorsor even Spawn for less and with more utility to do the same support job.

Ugly models... would kit bash my own.

They feel like the saddest Lone Wolves. DS one in on me and if my Lone Wolf can get there, (if), he'll lay waste to it.

I'd use them as a distraction, for certain.

TheKbob wrote:
Ugly models... would kit bash my own.

They feel like the saddest Lone Wolves. DS one in on me and if my Lone Wolf can get there, (if), he'll lay waste to it.

I'd use them as a distraction, for certain.

sad that they are so much worse. if each was an IC that could join other units they would be ok.
or if they have grenades and a better save
or if they could morph more useful weapons

Ah yes an assault squad that needs another unit to tie something up in assault before they get there. What a wonderful tactic. That makes them so much more useful than an assault squad who is capable of doing things like popping a transport or assaulting something all on its own.

Well it can be perfect disruption unit. The enemy has to take care of them since they can cause havoc. Target saturation is key when they deep strike into the enemy backfield.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well it can be perfect disruption unit. The enemy has to take care of them since they can cause havoc. Target saturation is key when they deep strike into the enemy backfield.

That is true for anything that you can drop in the backfield, and many things can arrive doing a lot more harm. You can have terminators with heavy flamers and combi-weapons, raptors with double melta or double flamer, even sorcerers in termi armor. All of them do more than trio of Mutilators, often at a comparable prize.

As for causing havoc...if the enemy can move 6+ inches away from their innacurate deepstrike, it'll be 2 more turns before they do anything.

@Sephyr

Your comparisons don't work out to well. Only one of those options doesn't take up a valuable spot and that's the terminators which are a single unit in comparison to three individuals you can use to bracket the enemy. They are going to be cheaper than a terminator unit with anything more than a heavy flamer and single combi-weapon. You can be more aggressive with the deepstriking since you might be losing a 55pt model vs. a 150+pt squad.

Again, stop looking at units in vaccuum. Good chaos lists shouldn't have open heavy, hq, or fast attack spots. Which only leaves elites and not to many points available there. For what they do Mutilators are pretty nice.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Sephyr

Your comparisons don't work out to well. Only one of those options doesn't take up a valuable spot and that's the terminators which are a single unit in comparison to three individuals you can use to bracket the enemy. They are going to be cheaper than a terminator unit with anything more than a heavy flamer and single combi-weapon. You can be more aggressive with the deepstriking since you might be losing a 55pt model vs. a 150+pt squad.

Again, stop looking at units in vaccuum. Good chaos lists shouldn't have open heavy, hq, or fast attack spots. Which only leaves elites and not to many points available there. For what they do Mutilators are pretty nice.

Yes, nothing valuable in the elite slots. No one needs cult marines, chosen special weapon squads, or heaven forbid terminators.

Kevlar wrote:

Yes, nothing valuable in the elite slots. No one needs cult marines, chosen special weapon squads, or heaven forbid terminators.

It should be pretty obvious by the context of Hulks quote is that he is not saying their is nothing of value from the elite slot, but rather once you get to the elite slot you may not have many points to spend. Most of the slots take at minimum a 150 point investment. In contrast, for 61 points you can get a MoN Mutli that can have a very respectable impact in the game.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

Yes, nothing valuable in the elite slots. No one needs cult marines, chosen special weapon squads, or heaven forbid terminators.

It should be pretty obvious by the context of Hulks quote is that he is not saying their is nothing of value from the elite slot, but rather once you get to the elite slot you may not have many points to spend. Most of the slots take at minimum a 150 point investment. In contrast, for 61 points you can get a MoN Mutli that can have a very respectable impact in the game.

By respectable you mean getting a respectable laugh out of your opponent as he turns it into a grease stain?

Kevlar wrote:

By respectable you mean getting a respectable laugh out of your opponent as he turns it into a grease stain?

Well, considering it takes, on average, 55 bolter shots to take one down then if they are devoting 3 or 4 units of firepower to one model then he's already having a "respectable" impact on the game. Or, if they are devoting Anti-Vehicle firepower at him instead of, you know, your vehicles, then he is also having a respectable impact on the game.

Every unit in the game can get shot at and die. Some do it better then others. 61 point 2 wound T5 terms do it better then most. "It might get shot at and die" is only a convincing argument for people who don't actually know how this game is fought and won.

Well, I can't say I have experience with the mutilators yet. However, I can say that with Oblits there were many situations where I preferred to have them in combat. After deepstriking, of course. I have to admit it is kind of nice to have an option now to do that which is slightly cheaper and meant to do that one thing.

Yes, raptors. Yes, spawn. Raptors don't have the 2+ and after you got the whole squad, given meltas, fearless and the other stuff, it gets expensive. It's not something you can use lightly or for disruption purposes... a lot of points for a suicide or something you can be careless about deepstriking. Same goes for oblits... 150 points a pop for a squad of two and you want to be careful with them. And I've tried the spawn; they are great but they often get tied up in combat. That's because they might roll for an armor save and only get one attack each one combat phase, or something like that.

And I'll bring back the point about the dimensional key. Think about things such as, drop pod lists. Assault lists. Daemons. 24-inch ranged fire lists. There are a great many things that have to move up turn one or even get up close and personal turn one. Now, suddenly they have to think hmm, do I want that juggerlord opening up a dimensional vortex and using pinpoint deepstrikes to twin-link melta me and place dedicated assault amidst my soft underbelly back field? If no, then they're forced to do something their list was not designed to do.

Well, Obliterators might be the better Multilators. Let them do what the Multilators might be good for (deep striking in the enemy backfield).
Multilators can do nothing but run after they deep strike. After deep striking in the enemy zone, Obliterators should have decent targets with their flamers, tl meltas, tl plasma guns, or assault cannons.
The Multilators may have a hard time to get into range of charging a unit, while the Obliterators can move away so that they eventually get out of charging range and can shoot at the same time.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Obliterators might be the better Multilators. Let them do what the Multilators might be good for (deep striking in the enemy backfield).
Multilators can do nothing but run after they deep strike. After deep striking in the enemy zone, Obliterators should have decent targets with their flamers, tl meltas, tl plasma guns, or assault cannons.
The Multilators may have a hard time to get into range of charging a unit, while the Obliterators can move away so that they eventually get out of charging range and can shoot at the same time.

Mutilators can't even run. SNP.

Kevlar wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Obliterators might be the better Multilators. Let them do what the Multilators might be good for (deep striking in the enemy backfield).
Multilators can do nothing but run after they deep strike. After deep striking in the enemy zone, Obliterators should have decent targets with their flamers, tl meltas, tl plasma guns, or assault cannons.
The Multilators may have a hard time to get into range of charging a unit, while the Obliterators can move away so that they eventually get out of charging range and can shoot at the same time.

Mutilators can't even run. SNP.

Thanks for pointing out. Too bad. This makes them even more vulnerable after deep striking. Hello plasma cannons (if they scatter not too far).

Has anyone used mutilators yet ? is there a bat rep with em in ?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Obliterators might be the better Multilators. Let them do what the Multilators might be good for (deep striking in the enemy backfield).
Multilators can do nothing but run after they deep strike. After deep striking in the enemy zone, Obliterators should have decent targets with their flamers, tl meltas, tl plasma guns, or assault cannons.
The Multilators may have a hard time to get into range of charging a unit, while the Obliterators can move away so that they eventually get out of charging range and can shoot at the same time.

Well, they fill slightly different roles. You need to be deepstriking oblits now with the new rules. But you don't want to be suicidal with them, unless you are rather desperate. It's still a 150p unit if you take two, and you want to be taking 2 because that's your HVY slot. You also might not want them tied up in combat for long since they can't be shooting and they are a very expensive shooting unit.

Mutilators can't run but they can assault up to 12 inches, which is a threat range of 18, reasonably 12, that the enemy has to think about being assaulted.

Obliterators can be handy DS distractions if you've gone for loads of Elites. Mutilators can be handy DS distractions if you've gone for loads of Heavy Support. Can we move on from that?

What about Mutilators AND Obliterators? Take three units of each, crank the disruption way up and create some threat overload situations. Oblits land outside the firing line, Muties cross fingers land land inside it.

You could really push it and throw in three Warp Talon units, a Lord on a Bike with a Key, and an appropriate SC letting him Infiltrate. If not a Lord, a Slaaneshi Sorcerer - force the unbelievers to take even more Blind tests. Anyone who can still see gets Obliterated.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Obliterators can be handy DS distractions if you've gone for loads of Elites. Mutilators can be handy DS distractions if you've gone for loads of Heavy Support. Can we move on from that?

What about Mutilators AND Obliterators? Take three units of each, crank the disruption way up and create some threat overload situations. Oblits land outside the firing line, Muties cross fingers land land inside it.

You could really push it and throw in three Warp Talon units, a Lord on a Bike with a Key, and an appropriate SC letting him Infiltrate. If not a Lord, a Slaaneshi Sorcerer - force the unbelievers to take even more Blind tests. Anyone who can still see gets Obliterated.

Too many points invested into the cults of Obliterators and Multilators. At the 1750 pt level or similar levels, its better to fill HS first and then there will be not very many pts left for Elite.

When I was testing out the new codex for possible lists I was running them with mark of slaanesh with a lord on steed and they were incredible, those four in your opponents backfield with your two metal dragons flying above and a flying dp on the horizon turned out to be brutal, beat a space wolves list by themselves

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
When I was testing out the new codex for possible lists I was running them with mark of slaanesh with a lord on steed and they were incredible, those four in your opponents backfield with your two metal dragons flying above and a flying dp on the horizon turned out to be brutal, beat a space wolves list by themselves

How'd you get the Lord to join them? Attached to another unit and ran over to join them when they appeared? Or were they four single model units?

if it was a slaneesh lord on a steed he could have outflanked

 lindsay40k wrote:
Obliterators can be handy DS distractions if you've gone for loads of Elites. Mutilators can be handy DS distractions if you've gone for loads of Heavy Support. Can we move on from that?

What about Mutilators AND Obliterators? Take three units of each, crank the disruption way up and create some threat overload situations. Oblits land outside the firing line, Muties cross fingers land land inside it.

You could really push it and throw in three Warp Talon units, a Lord on a Bike with a Key, and an appropriate SC letting him Infiltrate. If not a Lord, a Slaaneshi Sorcerer - force the unbelievers to take even more Blind tests. Anyone who can still see gets Obliterated.

I don't consider cult troops elite (u usually taking them with the lord or something) and the HVY and fast attack in this codex is just superior, it has better options for shooting and the fast has the dragon spawns and bikes. And both of them can be scoring in one mission, case closed.

I like the idea of obliterators and mutis, so long as you only take one man mutis and don't spend too many points on them. The oblits deepstrike on the edge of your front line or somewhere where they might control the battlefield and have a chance of surviving, meanwhile the mutis deepstrike on the opposite side, to pressure anything that might run away from the oblits.

I like warp talons as well, but with those guys you need a relatively large squad, start them on the board most of the time, and they need a lord to babysit them because they don't have grenades. They are a primary offensive unit.

Well, I also like the idea to start Oblits from the beginning and let them advance to put pressure upon the enemy. In the meanwhile, a squad of Multilators could deep strike in the enemy backfield to sandwich the enemy.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I also like the idea to start Oblits from the beginning and let them advance to put pressure upon the enemy. In the meanwhile, a squad of Multilators could deep strike in the enemy backfield to sandwich the enemy.

It really depends on the enemy I guess, but oblits to me are specialized to be up close and personal, especially now that they need to switch weapons and so many of them are close range. In all my games they've been the most devastating when they deepstrike in and melta/flame/snipe something, then threaten the enemy backfield directly. Also when they're walking up it gives the enemy time to react and often they are shot and can be ignored.

Now you can do a combo of Auto-Havocs and Quad that is like, 215 pts and you hit everywhere on the board if you place the quad right... it kind of beats oblits now for sheer firepower and versatility. I don't think we will be seeing whole armies of oblits any more, just one or two 2 man units that deepstrike in.

I like warp talons as well, but with those guys you need a relatively large squad, start them on the board most of the time, and they need a lord to babysit them because they don't have grenades. They are a primary offensive unit.

Frag Grenades Do Not Pass On to the unit, only the model that uses them gets it.

Why use these when you can use terminators.....