I was seriously looking over the prices for a beginner just getting into the game and could not believe the prices GW has set for their intro boxed sets.. or even their models for that matter!
Even companies like Privateer Press and Reaper have given in to the price hikes...
With the world economy as it is, we are facing a shortage of "disposable" income... at least I am!
If I were a parent and my kid came to me asking for $$ to get in to Gaming and I knew nothing about it, I'd need some hefty encouragement to fork out the cash... any others feel this way?
Will there be limitations for pricing or at least a guideline?
Is there a future for paper and metal gaming or will it eventually go to digital (Xbox/PC/PS3, etc)?
I'm concerned to say the least! The average kid just getting started has to fork out some serious "lunch money" just to get in to the hobby!
Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.
The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.
illuknisaa wrote: Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.
The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.
hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.
Play affordable games. Seriously, it's the 21st Century, with the internet and everything, there's no excuse to take a "Games Workshop IS gaming" mantra.
As far as a hobby or hole for your disposable income goes wargaming isn't too bad a deal. You've got similar startup costs in every hobby. I think what I get sore about is price hiking year after year....it's as if the manufacturers think their wares qualify as cost of living increases.
I think parents need to be educated about what their kids are spending their time (and the parents' money) on. If I knew nothing about tabletop wargames and my kid said they wanted a $40 box of plastic army men, I probably wouldn't go for it. However, if I were to understand that this was a hobby, and that my sone or daughter would be expending creative energy in building and painting those same little army men, then I'd porbably be a lot more willing to invest the money.
Having said that, I got into tabletop wargaming as an adult where I was single and gainfully employed, and with today's prices, I would find it much more challenging to afford the things I already have built and painted if I were to start into the hobby right now.
Oh my gosh! All the companies that do it better have raised their prices, too? Its like prices connected ro some economic structure somehow!
/sarcasm
Wargaming has never been cheap. I can remember when the bookshelf series of Avalon Hill were ridiculously expensive, and they were paper maps and cardboard chits.
illuknisaa wrote: Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.
The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.
hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.
Not sure where you pulled those numbers out of, but current reality is far different. And consoles have always come with at least one controller, so there's a Straw Man element there as well.
Videogames are a lot cheaper. US$250-300 gets you an XBox 360 or PS3 with one or two controllers and a game or two - good games, too - not shovelware crap. Buying games that aren't new releases - like year-old titles - but still top-tier AAA games cost $20-30. And while it's nice, no-one needs 10 games as a buy-in. 2-4 is actually heaps, especially if you choose a couple of games with lots of replayability like a Grand Theft Auto/Saints Row, Call of Duty/Battlefield or any sports games.
I (unfortunately) tell my students to steer clear of things like Warhammer, as fun as they are for me, as it's simply too much of a monetary investment for their parents, and we know how 90% of the teenagers who go into Warhammer end up. I turn them to self-contained miniature boardgames like the D&D ones (Ravenloft, etc) or the World of Warcraft miniatures game (since prepainted singles are cheap as chips on eBay). This is with Australian prices in mind, but it's pretty much as applicable elsewhere as well.
MightyGodzilla wrote: As far as a hobby or hole for your disposable income goes wargaming isn't too bad a deal. You've got similar startup costs in every hobby. I think what I get sore about is price hiking year after year....it's as if the manufacturers think their wares qualify as cost of living increases.
I only know of one manufacturers that price hike every year or that raise price more then cost of living.
If you want affordable mass-battle games, play Kings of War and Warpath from Mantic. The rules are free, the miniatures are extremely affordable.
If you want affordable skirmish games, there is an absolute *ton* of stuff out there... I agree that Privateer Press is still too rich for my tastes, but there's a lot of other good ones out there.
Basically "anyone other than GW" is the way to go if you want to avoid selling off your organs. GW are primarily a company for kids with rich parents.
Paying £45 for the rules, then £30 for the army book.. and then minis, paints etc. etc. from GW is an absolutely horrible proposition for any newbie GW player.
Wargaming has never been cheap. I can remember when the bookshelf series of Avalon Hill were ridiculously expensive, and they were paper maps and cardboard chits.
True, but it was somewhat cheaper than it is now. At least, there were cheaper options; GW themselves offered cheaper alternatives with a raft of board games, skirmish games, and the core games themselves needed less models and so were cheaper, even disregarding that those models per-unit have risen in price above inflation.
I mention GW, as in the UK at least this is most likely the first games that players will come across. Relatively, it is much more expensive. I understand though that the US and rest of the EU has a lot more general wargaming stores, allowing newcomers to compare the different games side by side.
Some of the other games have become more expensive as well, I often hear PP mentioned although I don't play the game myself and so can't comment.
Having said that, there is more competition in the marketplace than there was even ten years ago, and that combined with the internet (discount internet shopping/imports/ebay) have made cheaper purchases possible for the conscientious purchaser. Certainly, I think there is a lot more easy access to the entirety of the marketplace than there ever was when I was a kid - which usually consisted of going into the local FLGS every month or so just to look at what was on the shelves, and talking to other kids about it. That was it really!
To the OP though there are a mass of games, most of which you will find gaming communities for, that are relatively cheap to get into and play. To name a few: Dropzone commander, Dystopian Wars/Firestorm Armada, Freebooter's Fate, Infinity, Kings of War, Malifaux, Saga etc, all of which you can play with fair change from £100. Even the GW Specialist Games which, although about as well supported as a leper in a wind tunnel, are still quite cheap especially if you shop around and get non-official minis.
Games Workshop games have become a lot more expensive relatively, but it's not something that holds true throughout the entire industry.
So far GW has priced me out of their market, add in the 6th and I tapped out.
PP has been much cheaper for an army that is customizabele and all the options have merit. I think I have spent maybe $300 on the rulesbook and a good 50 pts plus of Khador
There are also much cheaper options out there besides PP.
I don't think the hobby is out-pricing paychecks, just GW.
Riquende wrote: Play affordable games. Seriously, it's the 21st Century, with the internet and everything, there's no excuse to take a "Games Workshop IS gaming" mantra.
This. GW suck at making their game accessible to new players, but they aren't the only company out there. You might have trouble finding opponents for Infinity or other smaller games, but Warmachine/Hordes are a lot cheaper to start and widely played.
On the whole with respect to monetary cost, i dont think its cost prohibitive. For me, i dont think Gw is cost prohibitive either although i can see it may be for younger people with less income.
If i compare it to how much i would spend on a night out or a decent meal in a decent restaurant it works out much cheaper on a pounds to hours of enjoyment ratio, it does not however keep the mrs as happy as a night out or a meal would and i often end up paying the cost in other ways !
Pick the right company, particularly in the skirmish gaming world and it is very affordable. Malifaux, infintiy, wolsung, relic knights all are very rewarding fun cheap systems to play in. The real problem of start up costs only come with GWtbhPP is more expensive than the skirmish systems I listed but GE really takes the biscuit. So yes gaming is affordable if you buy into a well supported skirmish system and avoid the improper touching of wallets provided by the GW experience. I would recommend all new gamers to start in either infinity or malifaux. Aslo there apparently very affordable smaller scale games though I'm not familiar with these,
I desperatly want to get into Airsoft, But the guns, the pellots, the gas to go to a place i can play, the fees and all that stuff would run me into....500$. that is my entire paycheck.
Warhammer, While expensive, I can get into it in smaller bites.
Because you want a larger-scale game? Because you like the fluff? Because you like the art style? Because you want to have tanks/aircraft/etc in your game? Because your friends all play 40k and you want to join them? There are plenty of reasons why someone would want to play GW games even though Infinity is cheaper.
Because you want a larger-scale game? Because you like the fluff? Because you like the art style? Because you want to have tanks/aircraft/etc in your game? Because your friends all play 40k and you want to join them? There are plenty of reasons why someone would want to play GW games even though Infinity is cheaper.
I mad stat comment as the genteleman concerned was comparing it to the $509 cost of airsoft as a all encompassing experience, you can play a full game of Infinity for $50.
If indeed you loved the imagery fluff etc and wanted to join a 40k only scene I can't see you getting change from $500 in fact the rules alone for a GW game system will cost you more than getting started in infinity. Ina thread about cost prohibition that is a very valuable point to make even though I know the GW white knights will hate me for pointing this out.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I mad stat comment as the genteleman concerned was comparing it to the $509 cost of airsoft as a all encompassing experience, you can play a full game of Infinity for $50.
Not actually true. $50 will get you a starter, which is fine for smaller games. You do need terrain, lots of it. This is why I mentioned costs over GW dropping by 2/3 - you'll still need to spend money on materials to make a lot of terrain or ~$150 to buy premade terrain for Infinity.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I know the GW white knights will hate me for pointing this out.
You are not saying anything new or insightful.
Thanks for pre-emptively dismissing anyone that disagrees with you, we wouldn't want anyone to forget that we're on the internet.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I know the GW white knights will hate me for pointing this out.
You are not saying anything new or insightful.
Thanks for pre-emptively dismissing anyone that disagrees with you, we wouldn't want anyone to forget that we're on the internet.
There was nothing dismissive in that post. Merely an acceptance of the sort of responses my post would engender. Guess you lived up to my assumption, congrats your a GW white knight!
illuknisaa wrote: Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.
The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.
hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.
Not sure where you pulled those numbers out of, but current reality is far different. And consoles have always come with at least one controller, so there's a Straw Man element there as well.
Videogames are a lot cheaper. US$250-300 gets you an XBox 360 or PS3 with one or two controllers and a game or two - good games, too - not shovelware crap. Buying games that aren't new releases - like year-old titles - but still top-tier AAA games cost $20-30. And while it's nice, no-one needs 10 games as a buy-in. 2-4 is actually heaps, especially if you choose a couple of games with lots of replayability like a Grand Theft Auto/Saints Row, Call of Duty/Battlefield or any sports games.
I (unfortunately) tell my students to steer clear of things like Warhammer, as fun as they are for me, as it's simply too much of a monetary investment for their parents, and we know how 90% of the teenagers who go into Warhammer end up. I turn them to self-contained miniature boardgames like the D&D ones (Ravenloft, etc) or the World of Warcraft miniatures game (since prepainted singles are cheap as chips on eBay). This is with Australian prices in mind, but it's pretty much as applicable elsewhere as well.
I can see what your saying there sir but let look at this in the long run. So a game system (even used) is about the price of a decent size starter army. However here's one thing your not taking into factor and that's relevance. In a matter of 6-7 years the game system (assuming the first one you bought survived) will be determined as "out of date" and games will stop being produced for it. So you will have to spend more money on the new system (estimated cost for next gen is 300-500$) not to mention the fact that you will buy at least 3 new games every year on avrage (60X3= 180$) and even with trade ins you will be spending at least 80$ a year on used games and 60$ a year on XBL if you play it.
Now lets look at mini fig gaming. Sure I have to spend 300$ - 500$ or so up front but what I buy will in most cases never loose relevance. So unless I want to theirs no real reason to "upgrade" my figs. Now sure I gotta buy paint but theirs ways to do it on the cheap. Yeah I gotta spend 75$ every 4-6 years on a rule book and 50$ every 4 - 8 years on a codex, but if you look at what I've spent in camparison of 6 years of video gaming I've saved a boat load of money.
Videogames are a lot cheaper. US$250-300 gets you an XBox 360 or PS3 with one or two controllers and a game or two - good games, too - not shovelware crap. Buying games that aren't new releases - like year-old titles - but still top-tier AAA games cost $20-30. And while it's nice, no-one needs 10 games as a buy-in. 2-4 is actually heaps, especially if you choose a couple of games with lots of replayability like a Grand Theft Auto/Saints Row, Call of Duty/Battlefield or any sports games.
I (unfortunately) tell my students to steer clear of things like Warhammer, as fun as they are for me, as it's simply too much of a monetary investment for their parents, and we know how 90% of the teenagers who go into Warhammer end up. I turn them to self-contained miniature boardgames like the D&D ones (Ravenloft, etc) or the World of Warcraft miniatures game (since prepainted singles are cheap as chips on eBay). This is with Australian prices in mind, but it's pretty much as applicable elsewhere as well.
I can see what your saying there sir but let look at this in the long run. So a game system (even used) is about the price of a decent size starter army. However here's one thing your not taking into factor and that's relevance. In a matter of 6-7 years the game system (assuming the first one you bought survived) will be determined as "out of date" and games will stop being produced for it. So you will have to spend more money on the new system (estimated cost for next gen is 300-500$) not to mention the fact that you will buy at least 3 new games every year on avrage (60X3= 180$) and even with trade ins you will be spending at least 80$ a year on used games and 60$ a year on XBL if you play it.
Now lets look at mini fig gaming. Sure I have to spend 300$ - 500$ or so up front but what I buy will in most cases never loose relevance. So unless I want to theirs no real reason to "upgrade" my figs. Now sure I gotta buy paint but theirs ways to do it on the cheap. Yeah I gotta spend 75$ every 4-6 years on a rule book and 50$ every 4 - 8 years on a codex, but if you look at what I've spent in camparison of 6 years of video gaming I've saved a boat load of money.
The thing is - I'm talking about kids getting into the hobby. New blood. They're the ones that the hobby is going to be cost prohibitive for or not. For us - hell - look where we're having this discussion. We're on a specialist wargames board that grew out of GW/40k with an Orkish theme (hence, "Dakka" and the emoticons.) The majority of people posting here are already invested. We can choose to play whatever we want, and we do so. Anyone saying that 40k is too expensive for them is essentially choosing that they no longer want to pay for whatever - that it's no longer value for their dollar or pound or euro - not that they actually can;t afford to continue if they so choose for the exact reasons you point out - you've already got your Marine or Guard army. Maybe you can't afford to buy a whole new Dark Eldar force as well, but you can buy the new rules, or switch to Hordes of Flames of War which you can finance by selling your 40k stuff or just buying piecemeal. (or dropping $400 at once). Cost prohobitive isn't - or shouldn't - be an issue for us, unless we buy into the whole "gotta have the newest, latest, greatest" angle.
Adults who we draw into it - again, a similar issue to us. They'll either borrow our existing figures and use those (as some of my friends do - as they're gamers as opposed to wargamers per se) or they'll buy into whatever game that you or they or the group happens to be playing, whether it's 40k or Dystopian Wars. Adults are also much more likely the ones who will be exposed to non-GW games.
Kids - teens - are the ones that "cost prohibitive" really comes down to. Their first contact usually comes through either Yu-Gi-Oh! cards and/or GW, and of course, GW is what their peers are likely to be playing, if at all. I can't rightly advise any parent (who are the ones paying) to go in for a $100+ starter set, paints, additional units and all the rest. If you've been into a GW store you know how they try and upsell and onsell the newbies and kids and their parents. Not when they can get a 360 with everything for $200-300 (during sale times) which will probably get a lot more use both in terms of daily and years over a 40k starter set. That's why I point the ones who seem more likely to go and possibly stay into the hobby towards cheaper, self-contained stuff. (and talk to their parents) Once they're earning their own money, they can do whatever they want to. When (In Australia) Dark Vengeance comes to $100 less than a non-sale 360 bundle with heaps of stuff, or $8 less than a bare-bones 360 with 1 controller..
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I know the GW white knights will hate me for pointing this out.
You are not saying anything new or insightful.
Thanks for pre-emptively dismissing anyone that disagrees with you, we wouldn't want anyone to forget that we're on the internet.
There was nothing dismissive in that post. Merely an acceptance of the sort of responses my post would engender. Guess you lived up to my assumption, congrats your a GW white knight!
You're not being helpful here. Indeed, you're merely being offensive, somewhat ignorant (in regard to plastictrees) and trollish.
tdjarvis302 wrote: I was seriously looking over the prices for a beginner just getting into the game and could not believe the prices GW has set for their intro boxed sets.. or even their models for that matter!
Even companies like Privateer Press and Reaper have given in to the price hikes...
With the world economy as it is, we are facing a shortage of "disposable" income... at least I am!
If I were a parent and my kid came to me asking for $$ to get in to Gaming and I knew nothing about it, I'd need some hefty encouragement to fork out the cash... any others feel this way?
Will there be limitations for pricing or at least a guideline?
Is there a future for paper and metal gaming or will it eventually go to digital (Xbox/PC/PS3, etc)?
I'm concerned to say the least! The average kid just getting started has to fork out some serious "lunch money" just to get in to the hobby!
Short answer: no
Have you seen the latest GW intro set? Best ever to be sure. Also in general, have you ever read up on disposable income in recessions? People flock to escapism. I also have no idea what you mean by "limitations for pricing or at least a guideline". Do you want the government to stop GW from raising prices?
Hobbies are an expense. We spend the money because we enjoy them.
Warhammer, in the grand scheme of hobbies, is really not that expensive. Not that the plastic itself is cheap (it's not), but the upkeep cost and use cost is extraordinarily minimal. Ask a paintballer how much it costs him to play for a weekend. Ask a car rebuilder how much it costs to fix a brake. Ask a duck hunter how much a camo jacket or a box of Hevi-shot costs.
With personal responsibility and a plan, it is easy to save up and build up an army. Once you buy the models, you never need to buy them again. Limit yourself to a new kit once you have painted the previous kit. You can spend time painting them, posing them, and using them. There is no entry fee to play on a dining room table or at a game club.
I find that the people who complain about the cost of Warhammer the most are the ones who rapidly change from army to army without building or painting most of their models.
It involves strategy, creativity, artistry, and socialization. Not many other hobbies can say that.
Ask a car rebuilder how much it costs to fix a brake.
..not much really.
Now, respraying a whole car. That's expensive. Mine was in the range of 3K.
WHFB and 40k are always going to be pretty prohibitively expensive if you always buy from GW directly. I'll buy from them every now and again but I don't have much money for that. That's what eBay is for.
As Whitenbeard, it's a matter of perspective, if you're churning through flavour of the month armies every time then you're going to find yourself broke quite fast.
G. Whitenbeard wrote: Hobbies are an expense. We spend the money because we enjoy them.
Warhammer, in the grand scheme of hobbies, is really not that expensive. Not that the plastic itself is cheap (it's not), but the upkeep cost and use cost is extraordinarily minimal. Ask a paintballer how much it costs him to play for a weekend. Ask a car rebuilder how much it costs to fix a brake. Ask a duck hunter how much a camo jacket or a box of Hevi-shot costs.
With personal responsibility and a plan, it is easy to save up and build up an army. Once you buy the models, you never need to buy them again. Limit yourself to a new kit once you have painted the previous kit. You can spend time painting them, posing them, and using them. There is no entry fee to play on a dining room table or at a game club.
I find that the people who complain about the cost of Warhammer the most are the ones who rapidly change from army to army without building or painting most of their models.
It involves strategy, creativity, artistry, and socialization. Not many other hobbies can say that.
If you enjoy it, then it is worth it.
Been saying this on here for the better part of a year...
I think the key with anything, and that applies to miniatures as well, is to budget. If you can afford only to only spend $40/month on miniatures, then save up for a few months and buy a bunch at a time, or set yourself goals of X unit purchased and painted in January, Z unit done in March, etc. Buying one unit at a time also allows you to paint everything before moving on to other units.
There's always a lot of talk about $500 armies. If you break that down by $50/month, you're looking at a 10 month time span to collect and paint those $500 worth of army. Yes, it will take some time, and yes, you won't be able to play immediately(barring proxies), but you're also not dropping a month's rent on miniatures in one single chunk.
ph34r wrote: Have you seen the latest GW intro set? Best ever to be sure.
It might be the "best ever", but it's still garbage. You don't get all the rules, you have to throw away money on an army you don't want (unless you get into 40k with a friend and split the box), the armies aren't legal for use outside of the starter box scenarios, and the points aren't even close to balanced between the two armies so it's even more garbage if you don't want to play marines. Oh, and forget about it if you want to play any other army, since they don't get a starter box.
Peregrine wrote: It might be the "best ever", but it's still garbage. You don't get all the rules
You get all the rules to play all the scenarios in the box with the forces provided, and you get the full rulebook sans fluff. You don't get full codices, but that's not needed for the set to work.
Peregrine wrote: you have to throw away money on an army you don't want (unless you get into 40k with a friend and split the box)
Starter sets are usually like this. Even Privateer Press and Battlefront Games have jumped on the 2 opposing forces starter sets. Hardly a fault.
Peregrine wrote: the armies aren't legal for use outside of the starter box scenarios
Only the Dark Angles are illegal outside of the started, needing Belial to make the Terminators troops. The Chaos force is perfectly legal (1 HQ, 2 troops, 2 elites). So no, both forces being illegal is false.
Peregrine wrote: and the points aren't even close to balanced between the two armies so it's even more garbage if you don't want to play marines.
This is pretty much the only fault with the set, and is only noticeable in 2 of the scenarios.
Peregrine wrote: Oh, and forget about it if you want to play any other army, since they don't get a starter box.
Irrelevant. You know what's in it when you buy it. What's in it is fantastic. Yes, it's only fantastic if you want Chaos or Dark Angels. That doesn't stop the fantasticness.
I had no idea this thread would take off the way it did! I personally have been war-gaming since the late 80's and took a loooong break from it when I joined the Army. What got me concerned about costs was researching Blood Bowl for another thread... I thought I'd look at some sites and compare pricing, as well as what I paid for my stuff when I got the bulk of my minis and was Gung-Ho war-gaming (the late 90's)... I couldn't believe how much the prices have escalated. When I was wounded and released from service I was seriously considering getting back in to the hobby with the minis and armies I already had... So I limped to the local gaming store and saw that my stuff was pretty well dated but I could still field what I had. I knew heads would turn and there would probably be some jokes and jeers at my expense, but I could rest assured that my stuff was assembled and painted... and already paid for! The down side was that all the "specialty games" had absolutely no one playing them, i.e. Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl... It was either Warmachine or GW's 40k and fantasy (at my local store anyways)... My other concern was having a fixed income and trying to keep up with the hobby... It was mentioned that you could buy a set, paint it, and pretty much piece-meal your force together over time... The plus to that is that it is a great way to work with a fixed income and build up your force within a year or so... but the minus is you'd have to wait 10 months plus before you could field a legit, legal force...
I, currently working on my PhD in Psychology, have found that when it comes to the all mighty $$ that people are very fickle with what they put their money in... I know I am. Nobody wants to put their money into a dying horse. The thing is, you never know when they are going to make changes, and things become obsolete.
I guess what I am trying to get feedback on is a new-comer's ability to purchase what they need to play and successfully participate within a reasonable amount of time.
I guess what I am trying to get feedback on is a new-comer's ability to purchase what they need to play and successfully participate within a reasonable amount of time.
Thanks to everyone for their input!
It depends on your situation, the game you want to play and how much you're willing/able to spend - and what you're willing to go without to get that bit of extra money to buy models with - there's a lot of non-essential garbage that adults buy that adds up to quite a bit - that happen to have cheaper and more healthy substitutes - Starbucks/take out coffee, booze, cigarettes, chocolate bars, potato chips.
Comes with the core of - or effectively two starter armies for a reasonable price (even cheaper if you split it - or two solid armies if you split two of them) it just depends on if you're interested in playing with WW2 rules, or have others to play it with.
It doesn't matter how much other hobbies cost. There are a lot of people who look at 40k and say "that looks kind of neat." Then they see the prices and say "That's not worth it! They are just plastic men!"
To those of us who are more into the hobby, game, and setting we see more intrinsic value in the miniatures. A new prospective player does not necessarily see it the same way. They don't have any experience playing tabletop games, they don't care about the fluff/setting (at least not any more than mere curiosity), and they don't know the joy of painting and building an army since they have never done it.
Comparing costs of different hobbies is completely irrelevant. Knitting is cheaper (usually) than wargaming, but that doesn't mean that I want to do it or feel that it is worth the money to do it.
I could have a hobby restoring WWII aircraft but still be of the opinion 40K is over priced for what you are getting.
My wife and I were talking a bit about the costs yesterday.
A few minutes into it she broke it down this way: she likes sushi. A night out to a good sushi restaurant easily hits $80. For.one.meal. Do that twice a month plus eating out at a few other places and those "entertainment" costs easily eclipse my hobby budget.
Heck, just going to a movie ( 2 people ) is $50 to $60 dollars.
So, in my opinion: $20 for one little guy is a lot of money. But I will certainly enjoy that model for years whereas a dinner is gone pretty quick and most movies are utter trash anyway.
clively wrote: So, in my opinion: $20 for one little guy is a lot of money. But I will certainly enjoy that model for years whereas a dinner is gone pretty quick and most movies are utter trash anyway.
This is the key difference to other hobbies. That $20 miniature? Forever useful. Even if the game collapses, there's other ways and games you can use them in. New model comes out? Doesn't invalidate your current model at all.
-Loki- wrote: You get all the rules to play all the scenarios in the box with the forces provided, and you get the full rulebook sans fluff. You don't get full codices, but that's not needed for the set to work.
Yes, the codex IS needed for the set to work, because unless you are lucky enough to start 40k at the same time as a friend and split the box you're going to be playing against armies outside the starter set, and that means you need a codex.
Only the Dark Angles are illegal outside of the started, needing Belial to make the Terminators troops. The Chaos force is perfectly legal (1 HQ, 2 troops, 2 elites). So no, both forces being illegal is false.
Ok, let's be reasonable here, the chaos force might technically be legal, but it's not even remotely close to anything you'd ever use in a real game. So you have one illegal army, and one army that might as well be illegal. And of course past starter sets and battleforces haven't been any better.
This is pretty much the only fault with the set, and is only noticeable in 2 of the scenarios.
Or if you ever decide to try playing the main rulebook scenarios with the models you got.
Irrelevant. You know what's in it when you buy it. What's in it is fantastic. Yes, it's only fantastic if you want Chaos or Dark Angels. That doesn't stop the fantasticness.
Except the whole point of a starter set is to get new people into the game. A starter set that excludes most new players (because they don't want to play one of the starter set armies) is a garbage starter set, especially when GW's battleforce options are even worse.
Be smart with your money is all...ebay, kijiji, trade shops...all affordable ways to be in the hobby.
I mainly just despise how crappy warhammer 40k has become as a game so will stick with Warmahordes now...there are other games I want to try too like dreadball, and firestorm armada...but with FA I have no one to play with really...and we'll see about dreadball.
I bought a used half painted SM Army with all the essentials used through the dakka swapshop for $250 bucks. It amount to 2k plus worth of points. Plan to soak them, brush them, re-primer them, then paint them to my liking. Remodeling as I go along with upgrade and weapon sprews etc.
Total cost will be less than $400 US for a fully customized, painted, playable SM army. Screw GW and paying full price.
I was looking to buy 21 space marine bikes to make a biker army, £8 per bike! £168 for 21 bikes, £168!!! These models only warrent a cost of £5 maximum, it's just injection moulded plastic for feths sake, I know the molds cost a fortune initially but they've been selling the same god damned bike kit since before I started collecting well over 10 years ago.
£8 for a bike, then £16.50 for an attack bike, that's just fething insulting.
I think games workshop belive their models are made of 24 carrat gold, Namibian blood diamonds and 95% pure columbian cocaine rater than plastic and crappy imitation resin.
I'm hardly adverse to expensive hobies either I collect limited edition premium format star wars statues from sideshow, attakus and gentle giant which can go for £100s but they feel great value compared to a 28mm scale unasembled, unpainted chunk of injection moulded plastic on a sprue for 8 fething quid!
clively wrote: So, in my opinion: $20 for one little guy is a lot of money. But I will certainly enjoy that model for years whereas a dinner is gone pretty quick and most movies are utter trash anyway.
This is the key difference to other hobbies. That $20 miniature? Forever useful. Even if the game collapses, there's other ways and games you can use them in. New model comes out? Doesn't invalidate your current model at all.
I have a vast amount of miniatures that are sitting in boxes or on shelves, and will be forever unloved (I apologise to them for any Toy Story scenario where they are coming awake during the night and reading this post! )
Sorry I'm being facetious! Although I think reading people's comments above the point is that the perceived value of something is the most important issue. People will hand over money for something if they deem it to be worth it - yes even Sushi for $80, airsoft for $500, to quote some examples above. No doubt many would still purchase a miniature wargaming starter box for $200, should that situation ever occur in the future - many arguments for it providing relative worth would still apply, even in that case.
The problem comes to GW that there are less and less people for whom this perceived value applies - yes there are still many, as this thread testifies (although on a GW-centric forum, they would be in deep trouble if that were not the case!), but I think the number of people for whom that relative value is 'worth it' is reducing. This problem is exacerbated by:
- Price increases above the rate of inflation, as well as re-boxing that further increase the cost/per mini.
- The relative amount of miniatures needed to play the core game. Alterations of rules that favour higher model count, introduction of new 'must have' units that prompt further expenditure.
- The cost of playing GW games relative to other gaming systems made by different manufacturers. * - The QC issues with Finecast which I think really damaged the company's reputation for quality (well, at least it did in my case).
- The lightweight resin used means that blister packs feel like they are carrying nothing but air; they 'feel' less valuable than the metal minis used to, which ties into a psychological factor of us associating value with the tactile responses associated with holding something (I think so, really! )
- A lot of the new kits, especially the larger ones, look more like toys than 'serious' modelling kits intended for adults. A more 'mature' design necessarily has more value associated with it than something that looks like it was made for children (with its associations of being cheaply made and mass produced in the Far East, designed to be used for one christmas and then thrown into a box).
(((- The company's reputation for greed. Perhaps it is just a personal thing, but I'm starting to feel a little uncomfortable handing money over to GW considering their business practices over the past 3-4 years. Not one thing in particular, and I don't want to go into it here, but just an insidious feeling that has grown on me with each policy change that comes to pass - like a gradual poking and wearing down of my resistance to it. I've put this one in brackets though as I think it won't apply to most people, only those who have followed the wargaming hobby for enough years to see the changes, and the most nerdy who spend far too much time hanging around on forums! )))
*I highlighted this one as I think it's possibly the most important, considering some of the comments in this thread. Especially for those of us who have been around for longer, it is far easier to compare to other company's prices, and far less easy to reconcile the perennial price rise (go back each year and read the 50 page threads each time, usually around June).
A lot of people who defend GW's current prices I think probably aren't aware of that, or else have a limited experience of the hobby as a whole outside of GW's games.
Of course many also say, "well I can afford it, so what?" but then that is not important regarding the discussion at hand. As Scipio.au pointed out at the end of his post above, I'm talking about buy-in cost here (either new players, or someone starting a new army) rather than someone who perhaps only has to buy a box or two a year - of course the price increases for those people will be far less important.
The problem comes to GW that there are less and less people for whom this perceived value applies - yes there are still many, as this thread testifies (although on a GW-centric forum, they would be in deep trouble if that were not the case!), but I think the number of people for whom that relative value is 'worth it' is reducing. This problem is exacerbated by:
- The QC issues with Finecast which I think really damaged the company's reputation for quality (well, at least it did in my case).
- The lightweight resin used means that blister packs feel like they are carrying nothing but air; they 'feel' less valuable than the metal minis used to, which ties into a psychological factor of us associating value with the tactile responses associated with holding something (I think so, really!
These are both really valid points - I've bought a couple of Finecast items off resellers, and they've almost all been faulty. Even replacements from GW were faulty - though less so. I think the tactile point is a good one as well.
I don't mind my minis feeling like air when I've paid £1 each for them... less so when it's £12/model.
And to make matters worse, the material *bends* which further increases the overall impression of it being shoddy/ cheap PVC Chinese mcdonald's toy that won't last.
Oh, and then there's the small fact that the stupid things warp in any kind of heat. Buy finecast carnosaur on 2 legs, and it is 100% guaranteed that 6 months later you will have a finecast carnosaur on 4 legs.
And on the whole, the pricing for this material has gone up compared to metal.
I really don't understand why anyone expresses a like a finecast at any point. I can understand still buying it since "Official Citadel GW-legal Product" stills matters to a lot of people, but actually liking it just confuses me.
The material is flat-out the only reason why I'm not going to get a new eldar army when they re-launch... I'm quite attached to the army and its background after playing it for over a decade, to the point where it could be considered an exception. Not with finecast though, no way in hell, GW really is dead to me at this point.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I know the GW white knights will hate me for pointing this out.
You are not saying anything new or insightful.
Thanks for pre-emptively dismissing anyone that disagrees with you, we wouldn't want anyone to forget that we're on the internet.
There was nothing dismissive in that post. Merely an acceptance of the sort of responses my post would engender. Guess you lived up to my assumption, congrats your a GW white knight!
The thing is I want to play a war game, not a skirmish game with a handful of crappy figures.
Infinity just does not do the job for me, I don't know where to buy it, nor do I know anyone that plays it because it's not as popular as GW.
Loads of players (you won't have any trouble finding a game in the UK), massive armies, extremely low prices, free rules.
If you want *really* affordable, Mantic + online resellers offering 30-40% discount is the way to go. Have a look for ebay traders, here's trolltrader offering the starter set (95 minis + dice + rules) new-in-box for £30 shipped:
There are also 1-player starter sets for each army for even cheaper similar to the warmachine starter boxes, for both KoW and Warpath.
And of course, if you think both KoW and Warpath are steaming piles of horrible game design, the minis are all usable in games of Fantasy and 40k, so you can keep playing warhammer, only without the eye-blistering cost.
You can complain about GW until the cows come home, it's not going to make any difference. Voting with your wallet is the only thing that will.
I don't mind my minis feeling like air when I've paid £1 each for them... less so when it's £12/model.
And to make matters worse, the material *bends* which further increases the overall impression of it being shoddy/ cheap PVC Chinese mcdonald's toy that won't last.
Oh, and then there's the small fact that the stupid things warp in any kind of heat. Buy finecast carnosaur on 2 legs, and it is 100% guaranteed that 6 months later you will have a finecast carnosaur on 4 legs.
And on the whole, the pricing for this material has gone up compared to metal.
I really don't understand why anyone expresses a like a finecast at any point. I can understand still buying it since "Official Citadel GW-legal Product" stills matters to a lot of people, but actually liking it just confuses me.
The material is flat-out the only reason why I'm not going to get a new eldar army when they re-launch... I'm quite attached to the army and its background after playing it for over a decade, to the point where it could be considered an exception. Not with finecast though, no way in hell, GW really is dead to me at this point.
I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.
blingman wrote: Infinity just does not do the job for me, I don't know where to buy it, nor do I know anyone that plays it because it's not as popular as GW.
It's all perspective. It depends what you want out of your hobby. I constantly hear people suggesting Warmachine as a cheaper alternative. What about 7TV? or just pick up an old wargame book off eBay. If you're playing with friends then surely you can use any models for any game. Go get a pack of plastic toy soldiers from a thrift store.
My car is also a hobby to me. But I cannot afford the £25,000 asking price for a new Land Rover, so I bought a 35 year old one for £1000 instead and get just as much enjoyment out of it.
Lack of disposebal income? Not in my case at least, anyhow as several people have already pointed out is that Wargamming has always been a costly hobby.
In my opinion, it has become very cost-prohibitive.
While I was at uni, I could afford to indulge in the hobby by purchasing something maybe once a month (as in a single kit/parts for conversion).
Since I have left uni, and especially recently, my average monthly disposable income is bordering on none to a pittance, so no more new minis for me...
The main thrust of this prohibition of wargaming has been increased two-fold by the fact that while my disposable income has decreased, hobby prices across the board have remained stagnant and/or dramatically increased, thus pushing me out even further.
scarletsquig wrote: I really don't understand why anyone expresses a like a finecast at any point. I can understand still buying it since "Official Citadel GW-legal Product" stills matters to a lot of people, but actually liking it just confuses me.
Spoken like a man who's never had to have a weekend of 'fun' with either a Thunderfire cannon or one of those horrid, wretched, despicable dwarven gyrocopter things (I had to pin EVERY joint on that last one, and still I'm afraid of looking at it too harshly...) - things which work **much** better in resin.
sure, I'd rather have had FWesque 'brittle' resin rather than the bendy stuff they put out now, and I'm still a bit miffed at the amount of bubbles many models come with, and sure, the prices are even more outrageous than they used to be but I prefer the material over resin for certain models at least, TBH...
oh, it also doesn't chip half as easily as metal does. that's a very good point in it's favour
Another thing that I forgot to mention (GW Specific) was the removal of bits/individual sprues from their store, something that I fondly remember from my days in the hobby before my long break from it.
Now making a squad setup that is not sold in any of their lines can cost a small fortune.
I'm making 2 squads of 5 sternguard with combi melta's in drop pods.
Because I can't buy an individual combi melta and the cheapest you can get from GW is £8 for 1 in the sternguard vets weapon pack, they cost about £8 each on ebay and are of course sold out in all the bits stores, I'm having to buy a deathwatch killteam upgrade pack for £15(to represent special ammo bolters also nice deathwatch shoulder pads to ensure the sternguard made with a tactical squads stand from my normal marines) and kitbash them with 10 meltaguns from for £12 from GW.
Add that to £18.40 for the basic TAC squad to convert and £36 for their drop pods from wayland games.
£81 for just two, five man sternguard squads with transports, and I've shopped about this is literally the cheapest way I've found of doing it while keeping it up to my standards.
Eiríkr wrote: Any hobby can be prohibitively expensive.
I dread to think how much money I've spent on snowboard equipment in the past couple of years.
I'm sure you're getting allot more value from that though, as long as the snow is good!
I dunno, I think I get a lot better value for money from GW than I do from skiing. The pass costs alone are pretty brutal in a cost-per-hour level of enjoyment.
I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.
When did you last encounter a miscast metal?
I'll admit that finecast has some advantages over metal; it's lighter so big figures are less top-heavy and easier to assemble, and it's easier to modify. But it's much more fragile (I'm worried I'll break my finecast minis but I've got metal figures that have been through 15 years of abuse already and are fine), prone to warping and is more likely to come with a casting defect.
On the pricing, wargaming in general has become much cheaper with the advent of plastics, and there's now more sci-fi in smaller scales than ever (dropzone commander, dystopian wars). Games workshop is pretty expensive, made worse by the company tie in for rules and figures.
For example, I was considering starting a fantasy Dwarf army, and as a minimum to start I need: Rules (£45 BRB or £65 Starter box), Codex (£20), Battalion Box (£60). That's £125-145 before even touching accessories, with 64 figs. For less then half that price (£50) I can get a Dwarf Army set with more 22 more figures and rules, but then need to find people to play KoW or don't mind proxies.
It's all fair and well saying that you can buy a unit a month to split the cost, but the reality of it is that you need a big enough army in one go to actually play games, which means matching the standard pick-up size (1000+pts), joining an escalation league, or starting at the same time with friends. I'd be pretty miffed if I had to wait a year to get a game because I didn't have enough figures, and would have dropped out by that point.
I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.
When did you last encounter a miscast metal?
all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.
Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.
I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.
I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.
When did you last encounter a miscast metal?
all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.
Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.
I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.
This is a, how shall we call it? Oh, I know: a purposeful misrepresentation of the truth.
Feel free to give me any links for threads with 80+ pages and actual photographic evidence of GW metal miscasts and PP miscasts in the same scale as GW's Failcrap.
Eiríkr wrote: Any hobby can be prohibitively expensive.
I dread to think how much money I've spent on snowboard equipment in the past couple of years.
I'm sure you're getting allot more value from that though, as long as the snow is good!
I dunno, I think I get a lot better value for money from GW than I do from skiing. The pass costs alone are pretty brutal in a cost-per-hour level of enjoyment.
Weather is fickle. What can I say! I've blown over a grand on trips out to the Alps before and the weather forecast//current situation was dire. It leaves quite a sour taste in the mouth; wet snow and ice for a board. Everything has a limit; I find wargaming to be one of my cheaper hobbies.
I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.
When did you last encounter a miscast metal?
all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.
Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.
I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.
You've encountered metal miscasts as an end customer? TBH I don't think I've even heard of any, and I've certainly never seen one and I've encountered many hundreds of metal figures (since before they went to pewter). My limited experience of finecast has yielded a 75% failure rate, that's 3 good figures out of 12.
I don't doubt that metal miscasts have appeared in manufacture, but from talking to casters they get stuck back into the pot immediately and cast again as they are completely re-usable. I also don't doubt that resin figures can be made properly, I own dozens of non-GW figures, so the issue is purely one of QC. But I don't buy the idea that finecast is higher quality or a better product that metal.
clively wrote: So, in my opinion: $20 for one little guy is a lot of money. But I will certainly enjoy that model for years whereas a dinner is gone pretty quick and most movies are utter trash anyway.
This is the key difference to other hobbies. That $20 miniature? Forever useful. Even if the game collapses, there's other ways and games you can use them in. New model comes out? Doesn't invalidate your current model at all.
I have a vast amount of miniatures that are sitting in boxes or on shelves, and will be forever unloved (I apologise to them for any Toy Story scenario where they are coming awake during the night and reading this post! )
Sorry I'm being facetious! Although I think reading people's comments above the point is that the perceived value of something is the most important issue. People will hand over money for something if they deem it to be worth it - yes even Sushi for $80, airsoft for $500, to quote some examples above. No doubt many would still purchase a miniature wargaming starter box for $200, should that situation ever occur in the future - many arguments for it providing relative worth would still apply, even in that case.
The problem comes to GW that there are less and less people for whom this perceived value applies - yes there are still many, as this thread testifies (although on a GW-centric forum, they would be in deep trouble if that were not the case!), but I think the number of people for whom that relative value is 'worth it' is reducing.
*snip*
The number of people who can afford this hobby is absolutely reducing. In any industry there exists a price/perceived value curve and GW is adjusting to locate the right place to be on that curve. Well run companies want to be at the top: meaning that they make the highest profit available for the number of units shipped.
As an example, you could sell 1000 boxes of marines for $5. However, jump the price to $10 and you might very well sell 10,000. Going further to $20 and that sales number might drop down to just 1000 again. The interesting part is that most people think that if something is cheap then it's not worth it and they won't buy. The top end is usually capped by those that can no longer afford the product; yes you will find a few fools in the world willing to pay $50k on a box of marines just because they can but the volume would be so low as to not be viable.
Which leaves the middle as a balance between perceived value and ability / desire to pay. Even in the middle there will be some level of lost sales. Both from a lack of perceived value as well as from an inability to actually pay the price.
So the big question for GW is: who is actually buying their product? If it's teenagers, then they have are close to pricing them out of the market. My 17 year old for example is unable to pick up additional models. Between paying for his own insurance, car repairs, gas, going out money and saving for college, he doesn't have anything left over. For him it's more important to see a movie with friends than pick up a box of marines: which is absolutely fine.
On the other hand, I enjoy painting and playing the game with friends and my kids, so dropping $100 a month on this is less than what I spend on pretty much anything else I do. (I have 5 kids, so my grocery bill is way more than that a week...)
For the short term, pricing teenagers out in order to focus on adults with disposable income is an okay strategy. However, they have to be really careful they don't go the way of the railroad hobbyists. What I mean by this is that getting into the train hobby is extremely expensive (think $100+ for a single car). As such only more established adults even bother. This has had a negative feedback that led to even higher prices and fewer people starting. That industry has long passed the danger point and has nearly entered irrelevance as the number of new train hobbyists drops every single year.
There are certainly teenagers that are interested; however, there tends to be a group think amongst them as to what's cool or not. With prices reaching the point of being difficult for younger kids to get into this then they will look at other game systems. If those game systems are similarily priced then they'll look at a completely different hobby altogether and we'll end up with only adults playing.
I prefer finecast to metal, i have not had a miscast model for about 12 months now, i think its better than metal in every way.
When did you last encounter a miscast metal?
all the Time. Don't pretend metal had no miscasts as it did frequently. It was just easier to replace metal for a company because the pieces were each on their own mold opposed to a single sprue, and faulty parts could go back into the smelter for literally no loss.
Metals had miscasts, but they also lend themselves to better QC.
I also have not had fine cast miscasts in over a year. And the rate of miscasts was about the same as when I bought metals and the level of miscasts of PP and other resin casters.
You've encountered metal miscasts as an end customer? TBH I don't think I've even heard of any, and I've certainly never seen one and I've encountered many hundreds of metal figures (since before they went to pewter). My limited experience of finecast has yielded a 75% failure rate, that's 3 good figures out of 12.
I don't doubt that metal miscasts have appeared in manufacture, but from talking to casters they get stuck back into the pot immediately and cast again as they are completely re-usable. I also don't doubt that resin figures can be made properly, I own dozens of non-GW figures, so the issue is purely one of QC. But I don't buy the idea that finecast is higher quality or a better product that metal.
Yes, dozens over the years. Pitting, rounding, incomplete formed parts. And you call GW and they send you the part in the mail.
I bought about 40 ultramarine metal shoulderpads from GW which came in blisters which had 5 per cast, and of the 8 castings, 2 of them had flaws for a total of 4 unusable shoulderpads.
The difference is casters are able to cast a 5-part model 100 times in metal molds, and then match together 5 good pieces... finecast puts all 5 pieces on one sprue and one flaw ruins the entire sprue. If they cased each piece individually and then packed blisters with 5 good pieces, it would be the same as metal. It is all a QC issue, not material. Resin, Plastic, Metal and even these hybrid resin/plastic like finecast all have their places and are useful in different situations.
Going back to the subject, for someone like me who is a veteran, there is a massive price shock when you go into the GW shop and see that a single small unit -- say six cavalry -- can cost as much as a 15mm Ancients army.
Wargaming is a cheap or expencive as you want it to be.
Down load some free rules, proxy minatures or cardboard bases for models/units.Play the rules see if you like them...
Full Thrust rules free to down load, 12 space ships from EM4 minatures(£2.50), and a black table cloth from a charity shop.(£4.00)And now add in a bit of painting and terrain making.(Youghurt pot space station etc.)
Great game hours of fun for less than £10/ $20.Is that expencive?
The table top minature game hobby is wide diverse and full of great creativity and social interaction and a genuine force of good .IMO.
GW plc '..are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children...'
For the short term, pricing teenagers out in order to focus on adults with disposable income is an okay strategy. However, they have to be really careful they don't go the way of the railroad hobbyists. What I mean by this is that getting into the train hobby is extremely expensive (think $100+ for a single car). As such only more established adults even bother. This has had a negative feedback that led to even higher prices and fewer people starting. That industry has long passed the danger point and has nearly entered irrelevance as the number of new train hobbyists drops every single year.
There are certainly teenagers that are interested; however, there tends to be a group think amongst them as to what's cool or not. With prices reaching the point of being difficult for younger kids to get into this then they will look at other game systems. If those game systems are similarily priced then they'll look at a completely different hobby altogether and we'll end up with only adults playing.
model railroad cars only cost around $20 thank god!, your thinking of engines(locos) that cost $100, the cost has gone up because the quailty has gone up you now get locos with dcc sound(computer chip) fantastic levels of detail and painting,you can still get cheap trainsets aimed at the youngster but i think like all hobbies it struggles to recruit new young followers over games consoles and instant easy entertainment but dcc sound is starting to get them back(go search youtube for dcc sound its great)
as for GW when i first started you got 30 marines for £10 no way i could afford GW for a complete army now but i just got 1250 points of imperial guard using other makers for £60 total and the guys at my local club aren't worried about the stand ins so works for me
illuknisaa wrote: Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.
The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.
hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.
I really don't think so. For about 250 euros you can get an xbox360. As for games, there are many solutions. From online sales, to second hand and even piracy. If you use a PC the cost while bigger it doesn't seem the same because of the many uses ( even professional, or studying). It's more like buying a multi purpose tool.
War gaming on the other hand, is extremely expensive nowdays. Actually it was always expensive for countries that imported the whole industry and even more for countries where there were limited shopping options and 1-2 stores acted as monopoly. Even without the existing economic disaster I can't imagine any kid having this kind of money to spend. Most of the gamers are guys over 25 years old, with a big percentage over 30. Lets face it. Just for paints and basic tools you need over 100 euros. I mean if you want to do the things right. If you want to be Spartan yes there are solutions for cheaper paints, or a limited range that will probably wont give you the result wished for.
illuknisaa wrote: Actually wargaming (even with gw prices) is one of the cheapest hobbies. Most game stores have painting tables which are free to use and even more expensive kits are at the console game price range. If you are even slightly smart you can significantly reduce the cost of minis.
The real question is how are people able afford game consoles? Those things burn money like crazy.
hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.
What crack are you smoking? Game systems top out at about $400 for a 250 gig xbox holliday bundle. you can get them from $200-$300 easily. Come with one controller, a second one costs about $40 maybe $50....games can run from $20 TO $60 depends if you want the latest and greatest new one or pick it up used or even older games that you missed out on, even cheaper if you want to statr assassin creed or halo series.
Cut that total price easily in half to a one third. And I'd LOVE to see the crappy army you are designing for $333. Please also include in that cost the hefty $75 rule book and new and improved $50 hardcover codex. So what great army have you come up with now $208. Please show your math and list of models.
The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.
There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):
35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad
That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.
There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):
35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad
That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.
in 28mm via GW it's expensive, but there are other rulesets, ranges and scales available (i.e. Kallistra does a 12mm fantasy range where an entire unit is about £6), it is just under half of the size of a GW figure though
please how many of you people have an overpriced iphone? Gw is not expensive.
Try smoking-- expensive
Try golfing-- expensive
Try sprue necrons-- cheap
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.
There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):
35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad
That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.
And no one plays LotR. Try a 40k or fantasy army like that gets played here. Nor have you inlcuded army books, brushes, clippers, knives. Nor is it in the $333 range you CLAIMED that was 1/3 of the price of the $1000 gaming console area.
FURTHER, its not cheaper in the long run. No one builds an army and stops, just liek gamer consoles buy another game, wargamers buy ANOTHER unit. Again and again.
Wargaming is not that expensive, most of my Chaos Marine army came off ebay. I also plan to buy Mantic's Z-Corps from Wayland Games with £80 minis in for £40... it's going to be the start of my zombie cultists.
j_p_chess wrote: please how many of you people have an overpriced iphone? Gw is not expensive.
Try smoking-- expensive
Try golfing-- expensive
Try sprue necrons-- cheap
Agreed, it's all about spending your money wisely and moderation, if you don't have money for a hobby you enjoy, then don't buy that Iphone 5 or cut back on the amount you spend drinking ect...
Alot of people I know like to go out clubbing most weekends, I bet it's even more expensive for them to go clubbing than me to play 40k, and playing 40k will benefit me in the long run; I'll have a nice army that should last me for ages if I keep it in good condition, would of built up friendships with fellow hobbyists, devolop painting skills, develop my mental maths and tactical skills, whilst still having fun.
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: The first is that, in the long run, it will be cheaper than a console, as some of my fellow posters have already posted. But of course consoles are different - if you decide that you don't want to assemble, paint and push toy soldiers around a table for a few hours then that maybe $35+ investment was wasted. With a console, if you don't like a game, you can get a new one and not waste a lot of money.
There's no doubt about it - wargaming is fething expensive. Like, really fething expensive. If you did what I did, this is what you'll be spending (roughly, in Singapore dollars):
35 for starter paint set, 12 Moria goblins
75 for 5 Easterling Kataphrakts
50 for paints
120 for Mines of Moria set with paints
70 for Eastern Invades set (40 Easterlings, 6 Kataphrakts, command)
27 for Easterling set (20 Easterlings)
15 for Easterling Command (captain + banner bearer)
75 for 10 Khandish Warriors
50 for Khandish King, foot and on Chariot
50 for Khandish Chariot
120 for Mumakil
75 for 5 Serpent Riders
35 for 6 Haradrim Raiders
12 for A Storm from the East
12 for Harad
That's 821, a huge amount. This got me about 1,200 pts, a big army for LOTR, but even so, it's ridiculous.
And no one plays LotR. Try a 40k or fantasy army like that gets played here. Nor have you inlcuded army books, brushes, clippers, knives. Nor is it in the $333 range you CLAIMED that was 1/3 of the price of the $1000 gaming console area.
FURTHER, its not cheaper in the long run. No one builds an army and stops, just liek gamer consoles buy another game, wargamers buy ANOTHER unit. Again and again.
Its not cheaper.
When did I say it was in the $333 range?
Storm from the East and Harad are the army books that were around for Easterlings and Harad at the time I've started. And where I lived, LotR was played a lot.
My point is it's not cheaper. That's what I'm getting at.
I believe i was the one who said the 333$ price range.
For one that is more then enough to start a army, and get a good 1000-1500pt range. Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start. for 333$ you can get two box sets of any race. The best box set for points be space wolves or space marines or look for a old army. Or even doing the starter sets, you can get 60 marines for 40$ (i know i did, all dark vengeance) and if 60 tactical marines are not enough for you snobby chain saw riding donkeys then i am gonna have to through you off the band wagon. Point is - for 333$ you can easily even get a 2000 pt s or more if you look for starter kits/split them with your buddy or ebay it up. There is always set dealers. Now for about 220$ you got a lot of models depending on your selection you can get 50-150 that leaves about 60$ for a few paints, brushes and primer. If you argue you cant do it for 333$ for at least already 40+ hours of hobby time then you are arrogant and ignorant and refuse to believe you can hobby/game for cost effectiveness.
cormadepanda wrote: Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start.
Which makes your comparison ridiculous. You're comparing getting the bare minimum to play 40k (and lose every time because you don't have the best units) with the cost to get a console and a complete library of games. Either compare bare minimum to bare minimum, or complete cost to complete cost.
cormadepanda wrote: Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start.
Which makes your comparison ridiculous. You're comparing getting the bare minimum to play 40k (and lose every time because you don't have the best units) with the cost to get a console and a complete library of games. Either compare bare minimum to bare minimum, or complete cost to complete cost.
Lose every time if you play optimized lists? or lose some of the time?
Mr. Burning wrote: Lose every time if you play optimized lists? or lose some of the time?
Lose all of the time. Battleforces suck, and if your army consists of a couple battleforces you're going to get tabled over and over again against anyone who isn't limited to a couple battleforces.
It is interesting to see that at my local club many WFB players do not build units out of individual models any more and now make space fillers in their units made of larger bases with one or two (or less) models on them. This is especially noticeable given that most GW units are made of (cheap?) plastic.
On a related note.
'..we are investing heavly in plastic manufacture to LOWER the ENTRY cost to the GW hobby..'
'...plastic manufacture allows high volume low cost production , we will be able to sell more at a lower retail price and maintain profit...'
All good practice in manufacturing and customer retension.
8 years later...
'Our customers are happy to pay the same price for plastic minatures as we charged fro white metal minatures , as they are easier to work with...'
'.. we have to charge such a high price as not many people buy them...'
Oh dearie dearie me...
ONLY the 'GWplc hobby' is getting prohibitivley expencive.(Doubleing actual cost over inflation at an ever shorter cycle.)
Storm from the East and Harad are the army books that were around for Easterlings and Harad at the time I've started. And where I lived, LotR was played a lot.
My point is it's not cheaper. That's what I'm getting at.
The claim keeps coming up its cheaper then a console, including one gentleman that he could get a good army for 1/3 of the console lay out:
hes got a point, a 300-600$ system, plus 100$ in two controllers, plus 10 games from 40-60$ average at 50$ - 500$. totaling at average of 1000$. Can easily hop into warhammer for 1/3rd that.
For one that is more then enough to start a army, and get a good 1000-1500pt range. Sure its not all the single priced box set of sexy stuff or the best units, but its a start. for 333$ you can get two box sets of any race. The best box set for points be space wolves or space marines or look for a old army. Or even doing the starter sets, you can get 60 marines for 40$ (i know i did, all dark vengeance) and if 60 tactical marines are not enough for you snobby chain saw riding donkeys then i am gonna have to through you off the band wagon. Point is - for 333$ you can easily even get a 2000 pt s or more if you look for starter kits/split them with your buddy or ebay it up. There is always set dealers. Now for about 220$ you got a lot of models depending on your selection you can get 50-150 that leaves about 60$ for a few paints, brushes and primer. If you argue you cant do it for 333$ for at least already 40+ hours of hobby time then you are arrogant and ignorant and refuse to believe you can hobby/game for cost effectiveness.
Really? $333 is enough to start an army? Does it include the $75 rule book, $50 new hard cover codex, paints, clippers, kinves and glue as well?
What starter set goves you 60 marines for $40? No set thats around anymore.
thats like saying I can get a game for $4.75 with tax(I just did that today, for an older game-gears of war 2 BTW). Can you match that? We're not talking about what deals, bartertown, trades you can get. New folks rares if ever know about that stuff early on.
*I* could do it, but I'm a 22 year veteran with 14 years on bartertown, so I know how to wheel and deal. New guys, whether consoles or gaming probably arent going that route.
Well, the topic if i am not mistaken was "is wargaming cost prohibitive" The answer is no. Its a average cost of some other hobby. The real truth is MULTI-hobby is cost prohibitive. I argued a view that is true, you can get a army for 333$ 75$ rule book? 50$ codex pff . How many dakka members here actually went and shelled out for a new rule book when it came out? or waited for the box set release. How many people here really buy their armies fresh out of box new for every model? How many here really pay the full blown retail stright to gw? I mean seriously, if you want a unit, and lack funds, make a conversion its a hobby. I will sit here and argue that i could make 100 any space marine you want 150$. And you can still tell crap after that. Did i count buying books, dice and a 1$ measuring tape, no, i was only counting models. But yeah for 250$ you get a good amount of models, even new. and leaves you with 80$ for paints, glue, and brushes, and a hobby knife, and modeling putty.
Nope, it is on the cheap side of hobbies for sure. Anyone who can't spend $100 a month (about the speed of assembly and painting for new players) doesn't have disposable income for any hobby.
Biking, skiing, boating, motorcycles, electronic gaming, etc. all have much higher costs associated over time, while $1000 dollars worth of assembled models can be used pretty much forever if players are still around.
Unfortunately, the time investment is the main issue with accessibility for new players. New players can look forward to assembling (and learning form mistakes) painting (and learning from mistakes) just to field a force that actually meets the style of the hobby.
The main issue is that the game does not scale well from small point games to large ones, so building up an army over time isn't very enjoyable either.
Most codexes aren't hardcover yet. If you want to pick up, say, Grey Knights or Blood Angels, you're not going to need one since the chances of getting a new codex soon is very slim.
snooggums wrote: The main issue is that the game does not scale well from small point games to large ones, so building up an army over time isn't very enjoyable either.
If by 'the game' you are referring to 40k, it actually does. It's actually quite enjoyable building an army in 500pt increments as you build and paint stuff and scale to bigger games. Don't take too long - aim for a new 'block' every month or two if you can afford it and have the time to paint it that fast.
It's even more enjoyable if you have a friend do it with you, gradually scaling battles against each other. 500pt blocks means you won't be left with a unit that needs support but without the support, but is small enough to get painted rather quickly.
Lead soldiers back when weren't cheap, and when i got into Epic it took a lot of persuasion form my parents to believe that a tank the size of a bent 50p coin was worth several quid.
I've been playing 40K since it began, and whfb before that. I have stoopid lots of orks from across that whole time. I have probably put about 8000.00 or so into just them over the years, and there have been other armies also (though now i only have 3...)
Granted, some of it was picked up used, or converted. AOBR was a freaking godsend.
Would i trade them in for that 8,000 cash in hand right now, no questions asked
No.
They have been worth every single penny for me, and more.
Do i consider the prices too high? Yup. definitely.
Will i keep buying them anyway? Yup. Not for my Orks (barring some FW stuff i still want), but my DE certainly.
To me it's worth it (but i DO reserve the right to bitch about the prices )
snooggums wrote: The main issue is that the game does not scale well from small point games to large ones, so building up an army over time isn't very enjoyable either.
If by 'the game' you are referring to 40k, it actually does. It's actually quite enjoyable building an army in 500pt increments as you build and paint stuff and scale to bigger games. Don't take too long - aim for a new 'block' every month or two if you can afford it and have the time to paint it that fast.
It's even more enjoyable if you have a friend do it with you, gradually scaling battles against each other. 500pt blocks means you won't be left with a unit that needs support but without the support, but is small enough to get painted rather quickly.
This is very true. I'm just coming up to the end of an escalation league I've been playing with friends, starting at 500pts then building and painting in 250pts increments. It's been a lot of fun and I've learned a lot about my army's playstyle (DE). I'd recommended this style of play to anyone.
Actually I find my car is my major eater of funds. If I could leave well enough alone I'd be fine but....Eh, at least I have a smile on my face to and from work.
Really wargaming isn't all that bad on the wallet if you are smart. Having a group willing to play smaller games for a while helps with start up costs, Escalation leagues are great! That's actual how I got into FoW and now I have more German than I ever need. I also have found that waiting to buy new stuff until I've finished painting the current set has made my hobby dollars go quite a bit further. Especially since it takes me ages to finish painting something.
A night out unless your going to london does not cost £50-£80 more like £30-40.
If you get a game like COD or one of those multiplayer games it can last you for months.
Depends on the individual to be honest, a night out for me costs about £50 at the cheapest if i stay local and over a hundred if the mrs wants a meal or i go to town.
I agree with the games though, i buy one game like bf3 and im done for an age !
I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I am much, much less interested in tabletop wargaming then I once was. There are several factors at play though, ranked more or less in order:
Warmachine never really was able to get a hold on me,
6th Edition doesn't look appealing to me;
Over just the few years I've been playing, the constant price hikes are making it ever more expensive for me to stay in the HHHobby, I don't like Finecast very much and it's becoming more predominant, and;
The actual model design is getting less and less appealing to me - I really am not excited about the new Chaos releases by virtue of bad models, something I would have found unthinkable just 2 years ago.
At this point I'm more interested in trying to get Pathfinder going with my family. Everyone can play, the learning curve is so much lower, the actual gaming sessions are faster, and it just seems to be more fun.
Speaking more generally though, no, I don't think wargaming is cost prohibitive. Going to the movies twice a month probably costs more then most tabletop wargames. Perhaps the Games Workshop HHHobby is getting more cost prohibitive in comparision with it's peers like WM & Infinity, et al, but that's not the thread title.
Not LOTR, that's a franchise, but you can get fairly generic 12mm fantasy that'll cover most of it (Orcs, Dwarves, Humans, Elves, Undead): http://www.kallistra.co.uk/?page=19
Just about 2-3 months ago, i was newbie thinking about jumping into the 40k scene, I can tell from recent memory that it was tough to jump in. I liked 40k a lot even before I got my space marines, the only thing that was concerning me about the price. A combat squad of Tac marines cost $5 per model, which to me was pretty expensive considering how easy it looks to be able to make those figures. I don't have too much of a problem getting the money for them, and I realize that companies get pinched in hard economic time like here in the US, but it seems that there may be a discrepancy in how GW prices its goods. Considering it should be relatively cheap to make the components, GW products shouldn't be $5 per model if they want many younger people to jump in, especially in rough times economically.
ace101 wrote: Just about 2-3 months ago, i was newbie thinking about jumping into the 40k scene, I can tell from recent memory that it was tough to jump in. I liked 40k a lot even before I got my space marines, the only thing that was concerning me about the price. A combat squad of Tac marines cost $5 per model, which to me was pretty expensive considering how easy it looks to be able to make those figures. I don't have too much of a problem getting the money for them, and I realize that companies get pinched in hard economic time like here in the US, but it seems that there may be a discrepancy in how GW prices its goods. Considering it should be relatively cheap to make the components, GW products shouldn't be $5 per model if they want many younger people to jump in, especially in rough times economically.
I think that they're currently really expensive because of the economic condition. They want to ensure profits during this period. Maybe after the recession is over prices will not increase so much? he said optimistically
Warmachine never really was able to get a hold on me,
6th Edition doesn't look appealing to me;
Over just the few years I've been playing, the constant price hikes are making it ever more expensive for me to stay in the HHHobby, I don't like Finecast very much and it's becoming more predominant, and;
The actual model design is getting less and less appealing to me - I really am not excited about the new Chaos releases by virtue of bad models, something I would have found unthinkable just 2 years ago.
Weirdly, none of these are a problem for me, because I don't play games by PP or GW. I would suggest the same thing for anybody thinking "I'm not as interested in tabletop gaming anymore because PP & GW suck now".
Yes GW is expensive with constant price increases. I remember back around 1980 you could get ral partha miniatures for DnD for about $1.00, with things like trolls being $2-3. A dragon with lots more metal was something like $6. If I buy a hive guard, venomthrope or deathleaper for nids it coss about $30. Sure the sculpt quality on most models is better (not all - look at some of the older models).
Even doubling the cost of a troll to $6 (about the same amount of metal as a hive guard) to allow for better sculpting, the price is 5 times higher (obviously done roughly but those that remember should see the point). Incomes for most jobs hasn't increased 5 times.
If I look just from the time I started 40k in mid 4th edition, a codex was about $22-24. In about 6 years the price has jumped to 25, then 29, then into the thirties heading towards $40. Now with hardcover it has jumped dramatically again (GW adds a few bucks of stuff/costs and charges $15+ in addition.
It doesn't matter that buying a boat is more expensive or a computer. This is an expensive hobby, where the company routinely invalidates many of your purchases.
If I didn't start this hobby 15 years ago it would be very difficult to get into now. Start up costs for this hobby are expensive, just like any other hobby. Even if we compare warhammer to sports...hockey for example, it is still on par. To play in a mens league beer hockey league it costs over $500 per season. Let's look at start up costs too, hockey gear is not cheap. Sure you can get it second hand and save some coin but new gear will run you well over another 500$. Sticks alone are $100 and you can go through 2-3 in a season.
We can sit here and complain about pricing but the fact is, if you enjoy something and it makes you happy does it really matter how much it costs. When you're dead your not taking your money, your warhammer, or your sporting goods with you so enjoy what you do and do it in a way you can afford.
Ok, TTWG isn't expensive, start up is, but to get the most out of your hobby, you don't need it, if i myself wasn't so dead set on starting Tau, i wouldn't need to buy anymore models. During this summer i was pressed for cash that i couldn't spend more then 5 dollars a week for entry fee into the gaming store.
How many other hobbies are there where you can still enjoy it with only 5$ a week for it?
Even driving your restored car costs more.
If people are not willing too pay for the hobby, they should go do something else, like fish or MMO's thosse are cheap.
You buy your models once, and that's pretty much it. Sometimes you buy more models and or more transport for them.
With console games, you need to buy the console and keep buying games.
For my 4 armies going well over 3k points each that I collected over 4 years time, I've spent around 2k USD total on everything. That's 500 USD a year. Less than the majority of owners of a 360, by quite a bit.
I believe that there is actually no reason to have bits of plastic resin marked up for this much money. Games-Workshop knows that it has a following, and KNOWS that people will buy their models. I'm not sure why they don't lower their prices. When I open a game store I'm going to cast my own pieces. Gana be so fething sick.
Monasou wrote: I'm not sure why they don't lower their prices.
Despite the chance that they'll continue to do ok, they probably want to continue making a profit during the recession. When it's over, who knows what will happen to their prices?
GW plc belive its better to have lower and lower sales volumes at higher and higher prices.
They would prefer to sell 10,000 boxes of Minatures for £100 each.
Rather than 200,000 boxes of minatures at £5 each.
(As its less work.)
Unfortnaley they appear to have forgetten the £Ms they invested in plastic manufacture to allow HIGH VOLUME production and low costing.
And the fact that so many other companies are happy to sell quality plastic minatures for the cost effective price due to maximisimng the high volume priduction of plastic manufacture.(Even though many have to outsource manufacture.)
Monasou wrote: I'm not sure why they don't lower their prices.
Despite the chance that they'll continue to do ok, they probably want to continue making a profit during the recession. When it's over, who knows what will happen to their prices?
They will do what the did before the recession. Raise there prices.
cormadepanda wrote: Well, the topic if i am not mistaken was "is wargaming cost prohibitive" The answer is no. Its a average cost of some other hobby. The real truth is MULTI-hobby is cost prohibitive. I argued a view that is true, you can get a army for 333$ 75$ rule book? 50$ codex pff . How many dakka members here actually went and shelled out for a new rule book when it came out? or waited for the box set release. How many people here really buy their armies fresh out of box new for every model? How many here really pay the full blown retail stright to gw? I mean seriously, if you want a unit, and lack funds, make a conversion its a hobby. I will sit here and argue that i could make 100 any space marine you want 150$. And you can still tell crap after that. Did i count buying books, dice and a 1$ measuring tape, no, i was only counting models. But yeah for 250$ you get a good amount of models, even new. and leaves you with 80$ for paints, glue, and brushes, and a hobby knife, and modeling putty.
THOSE are the costs involved in the hobby. YOU need the rulebook. YOu NEED the codex.
MANY members shelled out for the rule book. Just as MANY members shelled out for the chaos codex,. You see to want to make consoles all new and wargaming dirt chaep, and thats not the case. You can cut many corners as a non-newbie, but most folks rolling into either console gaming or wargaming generally dont. Like I said before- can you get a unit for under $5 like I did a good game? Your comparisons have been apples and oranges from the get go.
No you dont get a "good amount of models" for $250.. Your idea of good is somewhat crap. Where are your vehicals? Dreds? HQ? Heavy support? FA?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: While individual items are expensive, if you look at it from cost per hour it looks much, much better
Going to the cinema for 1.5 hours = £7-10
A book (about 4 hours for me) = £8
A night out 8 hours = £50-80
A new Xbox 360/PS3 game (6 hr +, depends on how good it is) = £40
If you paint your own units, wargaming is cheaper per hour, even if you don't if you and your friends game a lot it can still work out pretty cheap
(although the intitial outlay can be higher, as has been said above you could easily factor in a console/PC when costing your gaming)
Heck, have you seen how expensive it is to go to a baseball or basketball game these days? I have miniatures that are 20+ years old now. How many other toys last that long.
Really wargaming isn't all that bad on the wallet if you are smart. Having a group willing to play smaller games for a while helps with start up costs, Escalation leagues are great! That's actual how I got into FoW and now I have more German than I ever need. I also have found that waiting to buy new stuff until I've finished painting the current set has made my hobby dollars go quite a bit further. Especially since it takes me ages to finish painting something.
And thats true. And I also understand what corndepanda is saying, despite my arguement with him. You CAN cut alot of corners in wargaming to make cheaper. Hell I'm looking at a box of badly painted marines from canada that just need stripping.
However thats not what the OP is asking. Kids today looking at serious outlay of cost in lunchmoney- THAT is definately happening. I wouldnt recommend anyone getting in the hobby right now. Not at least the GW side. Not compared to a console or other miniature games. Or hell, even RPG's. I doubt any new kid coming into a GW hobby would know anything about used miniatures or anything like comdepanda is talking about, or even what bartertown is. Not compared to say gamestop and the shelves of clearly labeled new or used game and consoles in the store.
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OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:While individual items are expensive, if you look at it from cost per hour it looks much, much better
Going to the cinema for 1.5 hours = £7-10
A book (about 4 hours for me) = £8
A night out 8 hours = £50-80
A new Xbox 360/PS3 game (6 hr +, depends on how good it is) = £40
If you paint your own units, wargaming is cheaper per hour, even if you don't if you and your friends game a lot it can still work out pretty cheap
(although the intitial outlay can be higher, as has been said above you could easily factor in a console/PC when costing your gaming)
A night out unless your going to london does not cost £50-£80 more like £30-40.
You still had to AQUIRE those miniatures. And they have a cost added to it.
Further, I can tell you games that play online have more game life. My brothers have been playing one of those call of duty black ops games on line ever since its initial release. Which has probably made its cost per hour pennies on a dollar by now.
THOSE are the costs involved in the hobby. YOU need the rulebook. YOu NEED the codex.
MANY members shelled out for the rule book. Just as MANY members shelled out for the chaos codex,. You see to want to make consoles all new and wargaming dirt chaep, and thats not the case. You can cut many corners as a non-newbie, but most folks rolling into either console gaming or wargaming generally dont. Like I said before- can you get a unit for under $5 like I did a good game? Your comparisons have been apples and oranges from the get go.
No you dont get a "good amount of models" for $250.. Your idea of good is somewhat crap. Where are your vehicals? Dreds? HQ? Heavy support? FA?
Yeah didnt think so.
Well needing a codex and rule book sure. Actually paying money for it. That is another story, and another corner to cut. And it depends on what you feel a lot of models is. For me 300$ will buy me around 2000 or more points used, depending on the person. I will get a rule book and codex without paying; though a unknown method that is never mentioned for the life of me i forget how i do it.
However, even from the store, for 300$ for GWs absorbant amount of cost, i can walk away with 1000~pts or more in marines from box kits, and a dready if i want. You want a full force org for 300$ (my orange) you buy used, you want video games you pay 800$ (my apple). You got a 5$ game to go with a 300$ consoule, good for you. How much was more controllers so you can play with your friends? Perhaps additional hard drive space to store more data? Or paying for online gaming. You argue are using a much larger/different apple and orange with a ignorance of the entire cost and attempt to highlight the fact i don't say what you are getting with models while you argue you got a 5$ game.
In all reality, its lunch box money for sure, either hobby, video games or miniatures. But as a parent, i would have to say i am more likely to shell out for hobbies that are musical, artistic and creative, rather than a vegetative state of pushing a button for a visual reaction. A parent will pay 250$ for a console, plus 120$ for games, for a Christmas or something of the sort. If a kid expresses a want in a more realistic hobby in my opinion, why would they not shell out the same money? It is not like they are not getting anything for it.
Thus i ask the OP if they are talking of cost prohibitive as a job-less teenager/college kid vs a employed adult/teenager. If your employed, and single, and living in your parents house, you can afford to have a hobby. It ins't a hobby that is cost prohibitive, its the mindset and surroundings that provide the conditions to hobby or not hobby.
As said by a cool dude once: "To hobby, or not to hobby? That is the question."
The title should have been more in context with what the average person is going to pay for.
People who are already in the hobby will have a slanted look on this perspective. To myself, this hobby has gotten out of hand concerning price and what you get out on what you purchased.
You also have noticed I am not calling out one company over another, but the hobby in general.
The buying power of the average American, (as well as other parts of the world) have been stagnate or have been on the decline for the past 10+ years.
People are going to spend on what they think is important and/or what is told is important by massive marketing arms of corporation. Something that most hobby companies can not compete. A good marketing arm of any corporation can persuade the average consumer why their product is important to purchase, even during these times of economic change.
There is little discretionary income for the average person (in the US). They will choose what they feel gives them (generally) instant gratification by what they are shown by the media 24/7.
People who are already in the hobby will think otherwise and they will say that the hobby is not that expensive. But they are not the average consumer, but only a sliver of a niche of a consumer base that is within the massive multi-billion dollar entertainment industry of today.
While wargaming has never strictly been cheap, and there do remain a number of relatively cheap games out there (infinity, heavy gear, etc), overall it does cost significantly more than it used to, especially accounting for inflation. In an era when the average was is stagnant if not declining in many places, the cost of wargaming products from many companies is increasing at a rate significantly higher than inflation.
If, for instance, I were to rebuild my CSM army now for what it cost back in 2007, It'd cost me about 150-200% of what it did then, a mere 5 years ago, and we all know what's occurred between now and then.
Just a few months ago, in discussions regarding a combined "all in one" Space Marine book, people were raging against the possibility of having to pay $50 for a codex. Well, the basic paperback C:SM is now $41.25 and the considerably smaller page count C:CSM is $50.
There's no denying this hobby as a whole is significantly more expensive than it used to be, especially as a proportion of income. And it's only increasing.
Yes it's still cheaper than some hobbies, but it's definitely out of the reach of what would appear to be the target market of many wargaming companies. Mommy and Daddy aren't buying little timmy a tank kit or mechano-dragon for $75.
Yep, it's GW (and some others) that are prohibitively expensive. The hobby is not. Pick your game system and miniature provider well and you can do miniature wargaming on the ultra-cheap.
I would say its getting a little out of control yes. As far as the console's vs GW thing goes. As an adult with children I would choose the console's. the consol's provide instant gratification. You buy the system, controller and game your done. My kids can play right away without having to spend exorbitant amounts of time fulfilling wusiwug before they can play. I see more value in the console as well. They are an electronic piece of entertainment that allows for a wide veriaty of games for the whole family. Wargaming on the other had is basically a do it yourself board game (calm down and don't get your shorts in a wad). I love war gaming even though I don't get to play very often I do enjoy modeling and painting, but I do wish it was more reasonable.
I don't buy every codex anymore because its just not reasonable for me to do so. $60 dollars a month is the limit I set myself for free cash spending and I would rather buy models the books that I don't plan on using for anything other than a read through.
SickSix wrote: This thread made me realize that some of us take discussing games a bit too seriously.
we really can end the thread with. Social status defines hobbies, or another way to say that is, the amount of free cash you have. Since the world is in a decline/everyone going broke, i can see luxuries like games of any sort becoming less and less.
For startup costs, it all depends on what game you play. As for continuing costs, the prohibitive-ness depends fully on the customer-you keep buying anything in large amounts, it'll cost a lot of money.
Startup-wise, GW is expensive-you need to buy a rulebook, buy an army book, and buy models. GW does give you the option to play at any point level, so you can start at 750 points and have relatively few models, but it'll still cost you about $100 for the models alone for that small list, if buying directly from GW, as well as book costs-figure $215 retail for about 25 models plus books
PP I can only speak for their summer deal: 25 points (average size game, I'm told) and the rulebook for $125. I got that for Khador, haven't played it yet, but I look at what I got and I'm perfectly okay with the price I paid directly to PP-about 20 models and the rulebook for $125.
Dust Warfare: buying from Miniature Market I can get each full unit for $9 ($15), small tanks for $16 ($25), and big tanks for $25 ($40) each. The rulebook, with all the armies, also cost $25 ($40). Retail prices in paranthesis. I paid around $200 for 2 large tanks, 2 rulebooks, 1 small tank, 7 or 8 infantry units and including special characters that I had to buy individually.
Kings of War: I bought clearance boxes on Miniature Market, and received 180 models, 8 of them metal, for $121 total. For Warpath I bought 106 Orx Marauders for $104, and this included 4 vehicles and 2 Captains. I have a full dwarf army that doesn't NEED any more models, but I'll still likely get some Brock Riders when they come out, and my Orx are doing well too. No more models needed, and I have a full army for each for ~$100. And those boxes, while clearanced, are still awesome deals at full price: 85 models each for $80 for dwarves, 50 infantry and 2 good sized vehicles for $80 for Orx. I would have been fine with paying $160 for 100 infantry and 4 vehicles, but why pay more if I don't have to? I have one retailer near me who stocks Mantic-he's an hour and a half away. I'll buy online at a great discount unless I happen to be going to Albany already, then I'll buy from him, but I'm not adverse to spending full retail on an army that's already a good buy.
wowsmash wrote: I would say its getting a little out of control yes. As far as the console's vs GW thing goes. As an adult with children I would choose the console's. the consol's provide instant gratification. You buy the system, controller and game your done. My kids can play right away without having to spend exorbitant amounts of time fulfilling wusiwug before they can play. I see more value in the console as well. They are an electronic piece of entertainment that allows for a wide veriaty of games for the whole family. Wargaming on the other had is basically a do it yourself board game (calm down and don't get your shorts in a wad). I love war gaming even though I don't get to play very often I do enjoy modeling and painting, but I do wish it was more reasonable.
I don't buy every codex anymore because its just not reasonable for me to do so. $60 dollars a month is the limit I set myself for free cash spending and I would rather buy models the books that I don't plan on using for anything other than a read through.
*nods* I feel the same way. No way I'd let my kids get into the GW hobby nowadays. I'd steer them to either console games or RPG's, RPG's seem to have the most fun per hour vs $$$ spent then even consoles. I might steer them into warmhaordes, but only if they demonstrated they really wanted to play.
That and a willingness to stick to it. Most kids now days hop from one thing to the next. I wouldn't fork over that kind if cash for them unless I felt they would use them.
i bought 4 boxes of assault marines, and 1 box of terminators for 125 bucks off ebay.
tax included and they offered free shipping. BRAND NEW models, the only thing they dont ship is the boxes and i dont give two craps about that.
if i went into the store and paid canadian prices, it would come to 248 with tax.
it's actually cheap if you shop around online.
Automatically Appended Next Post: i will say that failcast is a massive giant huge ripoff.
i havnt bought a single failcast ever and i dont plan to but still: where do they get off charging 25-30 bucks for a single failcast model when the quality will probably suck.
Wargaming isn't expensive because you don't actually destroy your models when you have a battle.
Its only expensive if you are a crazy own every army type of hobbyist. For the average Joe, it's hardly dear at all.
I own maybe 3000 points worth of Space Marines, collected over about three years, and some of them bought from ebay, I've probably only dropped about £300 on them, and add another hundred in for paints and codex, rulebooks.
I have spent far more on video games, books, DVDs, running shoes and a bicycle over that time. I think thats most of my hobbies covered.
I'm saying that because I'm a guy who got back into the hobby two years ago when I was unemployed, and I'm still in it now. I'm living in Ireland and a freelancer in my thirties, and this isn't a combination that adds up to large amounts of disposable income.
And yet, I still have a mountain of unpainted models. And it still grows. And, while I rarely dabble in the GW end of the hobby, I do play a bit of those games, and I get away with it. I prefer historical games, but I'll play 40k and Infinity because that's where the action is around here. But really, if you want to play this game you can. What we do is this: we read things, we paint things, we gather with nice folk and push some toys around and roll dice. All of this can be done expensively or cheaply. And yes, there are companies that exist to drain as much money out of us as they can, but I'll not get into a discussion about capitalism here, as it's one of the few websites I don't go on about it on.
So what I'm saying is this, I can't afford to join an Apocalypse game this year or next, but I can, and do, afford to enjoy buying and painting models, and then playing wargames with them. And if I can, anyone who wants to can.
I think that "cost prohibition" is a very relative term... I played 40k during 5th ed. and what finally drove me out of this particular game was the price hikes of the new 6th ed. books and model price increases. The means that I have available for gaming are becoming increasingly tight, with 2 kids, bills and a looming career change (read, losing one job, and not sure what/where I'm gonna work next) have made it very irresponsible for me to continue with a game of 40k's size.
Luckily for me, I discovered Malifaux which even my wife has enjoyed thus far.
Understandably, one person saying that the "GW hobby" is cost prohibitive is saying this from his/her perspective, and does not invalidate anyone who says that it isn't this way. It's all in where we are in life, and what our personal cost/enjoyment ratio is. Each of us can, of course, throw out expensive hobbies that we may enjoy (cars, cigars, tattoos, video games, guns, airsoft/paintball, etc.) and that is all valid, but it's about individuals not a collective group.
Now, if GW was charging 300 for the base rule book, 150 for codices, and another 200 for a single land raider or tac squad, then yeah, I'd think there would be a very good "GW is priced themselves out of the market" or "the hobby is cost prohibitive" thread that would be much more objective than this.
It really does come down to if you shop smart (Shop S-Mart).
People buying GW issue brushes and paints are going to find costs adding up a ton way faster than just buying models from them.
It's not cost prohibitive if you know what to buy at the right time. I'll still buy from GW stores if I have the disposable income for it and I'm not in the mood for waiting for shipping, but more often than not I'd rather buy 2 Venoms for the price of 1 online.
GW gaming has been cost-prohibitive for a long time for many folks.
However, Wargaming itself is one of the most affordable hobbies you can engage in.
Here's the main rub. If you want to wargame on a tight budget you're going to have to do the following two things yourself:
1) Research alternate games and miniatures
2) Build a gaming group. There aren't alot of groups of indie gamers out there.
However, I'm here to tell you it can be done.
2 years ago I started a game club based largely around the concept of affordable indie gaming.
Check out our blog for tons of info on cheap games, miniatures, terrain, etc.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/ I probably spend almost as much on gaming now as I did when I played only 40k, but I'm now playing several different games, making lots of terrain, and enjoying a much wider gaming hobby.
Check out the "Alternate Games you might enjoy" Thread in this very forum for many examples, but here's a 2 of quick suggestions for ultra-cheap gaming options that work for our club without confining us to a miniature board game or other inclusive gaming experience.
Fantasy Skirmish
Song of Blades and Heroes: 8$ for the rules. and 8 bucks each for expansions.
$20-30 for a warband made up of either cheap (EM4, Megaminis,etc) new figures or even less for used fantasy figs which are ridiculously cheap in lots on ebay.
Post Apoc Skirmish
Rules: Neutron York 3000 ($7), or free rules like Nuclear Renaissance, Necromunda, Wastelands Meltdown, etc.
Figs. 20-30 bucks will get you a warband from the same companies mentioned above, or go used for even better deals. Modify a few 1/43 die cast if your ruleset needs some vehicles and you're golden.
That's $30 buy-in (not counting paints) for some fun gaming that everyone can enjoy. With such a low entry cost, and no requirement to use "those miniatures with their game" there's no real risk to trying a ruleset you aren't sure about because you can always use your figs in a different ruleset.
Sum up, gaming is a cheap as you want it to be. It just takes a bit more initial effort if you want to game outside the comfy walls of the pre-packaged experience of on of the "big" games that come with minis, rules, and (most appealingly) a built-in gaming community.
Add in 15mm skirmish gaming as an alternative to 28mm miniatures and putting together your force for the games you mentioned just go ridiculously cheap.
Though for Song of Blades & Heroes, I ended up going with Reaper Bones miniatures.
I'm a dedicated 28mm devotee, but for those not tied to it, 15mm is an excellent scale. It's affordable at both the warband skirmish and platoon-or-greater level, and has seen quite a number of manufacturers get into the market resulting in a wide range of available figures in Historical, Fantasy and Sci-Fi genres.
If starting a gaming group from scratch, 15mm is definitely a scale to consider.
I just got into Bolt Action and decided to go for 15mm. For the same cost as a single 28mm army for that game, I have both German and Soviet armies four times the model count as the single 28mm army.
They're smaller, but I have a wide and deep collection for two army lists for the price of a single army build for one list if I went with 28mm.
I still love 28mm. I especially like the 1990s aesthetic that still kicks around in some lines like Mega Minis. I just got 80 plastic Warzone troops off of eBay for less than $40 after shipping, customs charges, etc.,.
Spoiler:
mantic, warzone, GW cadian
I'm cutting off the bayonets, the bed rolls, getting rid of the drum clips and using both GW, Wargames Factory and Mantic bits off of ebay to customize guys with all sorts of weapons. I'm also doing head swaps.
50 cents a figure + bits.
ScarletSquig is also right about Mantic. Free rules cuts a considerable amount out of the price of the hobby. The miniatures aren't quite as cheap as my warzone guys, but they're still affordable.
If you want a skirmish game with plastic figures, you can try Malifaux by Wyrd Games. It's 32mm so they're a little taller than the average Space Marine but it shouldn't matter. Most of their line is metal but they have been moving to plastic this year. The Thunders faction is now mostly plastic as are the recent additions to the Arcanists and Resurrectionists.
War-gaming is not bad cost wise, now that I don't buy GW that is. I spent less on Infinity with 3 faction and DZC, even the new Batman game will not put over the top. If only GW had stayed with army size from when they started. For mass games should be at smaller scale like 10m or 15m, even GW knew this, but it didn't make as much money.
Noir wrote: War-gaming is not bad cost wise, now that I don't buy GW that is. I spent less on Infinity with 3 faction and DZC, even the new Batman game will not put over the top. If only GW had stayed with army size from when they started. For mass games should be at smaller scale like 10m or 15m, even GW knew this, but it didn't make as much money.
Noir wrote: War-gaming is not bad cost wise, now that I don't buy GW that is. I spent less on Infinity with 3 faction and DZC, even the new Batman game will not put over the top. If only GW had stayed with army size from when they started. For mass games should be at smaller scale like 10m or 15m, even GW knew this, but it didn't make as much money.
Apologies for wall o'text, but I've been pondering something for a while and this thread is the exact topic. I'm not an economist and this is based on years of observation of miniwargaming as a whole, plus lots of time reading and thinking on the topic. Recently, I'm starting to think a bit differently on pricing.
GW has always been expensive. The were laughably expensive in the mid-90's when I was making a few dollars more than minimum wage. When I started up GW again in the early 2000's, the prices weren't bad because my financial situation was much more comfortable. Today I'm extremely comfortable and GW is back to laughably pricey due to the very rapid price increases over the last several years.
But you know what? I'm grateful. GW as market leader has priced their products at a level comparable to smaller/boutique manufacturers. At this point, even Forgeworld is starting to look downright affordable when compared to GW.
GW foolishly refusing to take advantage of economies of scale and pricing things so high means this: small companies can make their product, with their higher relative overhead, and have prices similar to GW that allow their business to work. If the trend of pricing in the market was lower, then the small companies couldn't get a start.
GW's pricing will allow their competition, and inevitable successor, to be born.
The Batman game is an excellent example of a miniwargame likely on the high end of customer price expectations, set by the market as lead by GW. But, really all the newer (relative to GW) games we have today is because GW's high pricing opened the door allowing them to give it a shot. And now plastics are starting to come out for the little guys (well hello, Malifaux!), which has to be at least in part because the market leader prices their plastics so high it is feasible. GW could Wal-Mart them (i.e. undercut to drive them out of business), but I don't think they will.
So, is wargaming too expensive? Of course it is all relative, but it may be more expensive than it should be, right now. In a few years things may start to look very different as some of the younger games/minis companies develop and really start to compete on pricing. I hope so, at least.
Again, not an economist here, just looking at it from another angle.
I think you're right about GW pricing allowing others to enter the market. They had a near monopoly in the late 90s and gave it away in the decade to follow with massive price increases. Injection molding technology has brought down plastic production prices to the point where small companies can now get involved in what used to be a GW only proposition. Especially given that GW has increased the expected price of plastic miniatures.
So, is wargaming too expensive? Of course it is all relative, but it may be more expensive than it should be, right now. In a few years things may start to look very different as some of the younger games/minis companies develop and really start to compete on pricing. I hope so, at least.
Yes I think so. In a way, and perhaps perversely, we should be glad that GW is so expensive! It's allowed other companies to get off the ground and begin to flourish. We as fans of wargaming are all better off for that I feel.
Unless you're an Aussie. Forgeworld is expensive, but if you want to go that extra mile, there's always GW!
Although FW even makes more money out of antipodeans (and all non-EU residents actually) for that - they're getting the price of the mini, plus the 20% or so that UK buyers are paying extra for VAT (the tax added to most things here).
So, is wargaming too expensive? Of course it is all relative, but it may be more expensive than it should be, right now. In a few years things may start to look very different as some of the younger games/minis companies develop and really start to compete on pricing. I hope so, at least.
Yes I think so. In a way, and perhaps perversely, we should be glad that GW is so expensive! It's allowed other companies to get off the ground and begin to flourish. We as fans of wargaming are all better off for that I feel.
The main thing that hurts GW right now is it looks like there's finally some other games around with staying power. I went through all of the older phases - Warzone and the like. Nothing stuck, companies went under.
But now, Warmachine looks like it's not going anywhere, unless PP really screw up. Corvus Belli aren't going anywhere with their game getting more popular with every monthly release. Mantic, while I'm not a fan of their sculpts, are gaining a following if only for budget GW armies. Flames of War, Dropzone Commander and Dystopian Wars are covering the smaller scale nicely.
GW weathered the high prices in the past because they were the only real game in town. Other just never stuck around, and people went back to GW. Now they're going to other games that don't look like they'll fold. GW is still the big fish by a huge margin, but others are gaining. GW folding would definitely hurt the wargaming community, however.
GW is expensive - especially when you factor in the costs of the sundries you need. The models are expensive enough but then you have to consider tools, brushes, paints, storage etc etc........also bitz and other more esoteric toosl you might need if you plan on doing elaboarate conversions or scratchbuilds
Look at it this way, i'm glad i made an apoc army 5 years ago and now just need to get the occaisional unit to keep my 40k army up to date. Prices have gone up so much just since i started, i dread to think how proper old school gamers must feel.
GW is expensive - especially when you factor in the copsts of the sundried you need. The models are expensive enoguh but then you have to consider tools, brushes, paints, storage etc etc........
Look at it this way, i'm glad i made an apoc army 5 years ago and now just need to get the occaisional unit. Prices have gone up so much just since i started, i dread to think how proper old school gamers must feel.
We have moved on from GW
From Two land Raiders or three Rhinos in a box.
Decent army deals are a thing of the past.
The plethora of gaming systems and models available mean that there is always something to play out there. They were always there really.
GW is expensive - especially when you factor in the copsts of the sundried you need. The models are expensive enoguh but then you have to consider tools, brushes, paints, storage etc etc........
Look at it this way, i'm glad i made an apoc army 5 years ago and now just need to get the occaisional unit.
Prices have gone up so much just since i started, i dread to think how proper old school gamers must feel.
We have moved on from GW. From Two land Raiders or three Rhinos in a box. Decent army deals are a thing of the past.
The plethora of gaming systems and models available mean that there is always something to play out there. They were always there really.
Yep, this is pretty much my opinion. Even if they don't completely move on, many Veteran gamers put less emphasis on GW and look into other games as well.
I will say one thing though in counterpoint to the rose colored glasses I tend to put on when thinking about my early gaming years. I have to agree with this statement also:
GW has always been expensive. The were laughably expensive in the mid-90's when I was making a few dollars more than minimum wage.
Spoiler:
When I started up GW again in the early 2000's, the prices weren't bad because my financial situation was much more comfortable. Today I'm extremely comfortable and GW is back to laughably pricey due to the very rapid price increases over the last several years.
I've also only been playing since the mid 90's, and compared to the competition GW was expensive then. No doubt GW's price raises have accelerated (in frequency and rate) over the years, but GW has priced itself as a premium hobby since at least 1991.
Yeah. Seriously, wargaming isn't that expensive. Comparing it with my previous "hobby", which was going out drinking on weekends, I'm saving so much money now that I quit drinking. When I used to drink, I'd spend ~ £120 (~ $220) per weekend, if I went out only one night. Going out even close to every weekend took all the "disposable" income I had. And that meant I had something to do one night per week.
Now that I've cut drinking and got into painting and playing 40K, and only buying as many models as I can realistically paint in a single month, I've managed to start saving up money, even though my income has been cut more than half.
The place where I buy hobby supplies also sell model railways, and the prices for those things are ridiculous(!!), often in the high £150 for a single carriage or locomotive. And you can't even play games with them. You just turn on the power and watch them go round and round.
I used to play Paintball pretty actively, and if you play more than one day a week, you'll burn through paintballs incredibly fast. And if you're even slightly picky about paintball quality, those things get expensive fast. Then there's markers, protective gear, maintenance, field-hire, air-supply.
About the only thing I can come up with which is cheaper on a minute by minute basis, is hitting a bicycle rim with a stick. yeeersss. Hyperbole, I know, but it's not by much.
As someone who is getting into Warhammer 40k I can say it is very cost prohibitive at first. When you take into account getting started up, A rule-book, a codex, and then a 2 squads and a transport vehicle just to start, if you buy from GW your looking at around $230, that's before paints and hobby supplies that go along with it. after that your probably looking at around $260. Of course after this is all purchased you're only looking at upgrading your army and resupplying paints and hobby stuff, the cost tapers off (unless you decide to switch armies or stuff like that.
With gaming you pay for the beginning system, usually comes with a controller. $250-300 (at that price it comes with a game) If you have a PS3 you just pay for games at that point, 360 is going to cost you another $60 a year for your online play and then games at your own discretion. Not to mention that you get a video player and possibly a music player and a couple of other gadgets along side. I personally have played video games all my life but prefer tabletops games because they usually come with a literal ton of fluff. So I guess that for me it came down to the fact that tabletop games have you pay that money for little pieces of plastic and then have to assembly and paint your toys yourself.
All that being said I gotta say I love the fluff and world that Warhammer 40k presents and is the main reason im willing to sell out 30 bucks for plastic pieces.
I think that it all depends on what all else the person is doing with their money. I started about 3yrs ago and my game store mainly had WHFB/WH40K/Warma/Hordes. I used to play tcgs(Magic) and would do tournaments every week and the guys playing WHFB and WH40k always seemed to be having fun and yelling at each other so I started watching and talking to them and then I decided to quit playing tcgs and invest in warhammer. I won't lie and say that I haven't spent a good penny on this game as I have 3 armies each around 2000ish points for 40k and 3 for fantasy. Most of my stuff I have gotten from the store or ebay and when I can go and buy an entire fantasy army for $350 on ebay and still do good in tournaments i dont think it is so bad. I would spend way more than that on freaking cards... the $15 to enter the tournaments and then i would buy like 4-5 packs at a time and then the big boxes. I spent way more on cards over all and warhammer is cheaper as you dont have to spend as much on it over time. I can just buy an army and quit there unless I want some new thing where as with cards you have to keep updating every other month to play.
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