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Well, the topic if i am not mistaken was "is wargaming cost prohibitive" The answer is no. Its a average cost of some other hobby. The real truth is MULTI-hobby is cost prohibitive. I argued a view that is true, you can get a army for 333$ 75$ rule book? 50$ codex pff . How many dakka members here actually went and shelled out for a new rule book when it came out? or waited for the box set release. How many people here really buy their armies fresh out of box new for every model? How many here really pay the full blown retail stright to gw? I mean seriously, if you want a unit, and lack funds, make a conversion its a hobby. I will sit here and argue that i could make 100 any space marine you want 150$. And you can still tell crap after that. Did i count buying books, dice and a 1$ measuring tape, no, i was only counting models. But yeah for 250$ you get a good amount of models, even new. and leaves you with 80$ for paints, glue, and brushes, and a hobby knife, and modeling putty.

Nope, it is on the cheap side of hobbies for sure. Anyone who can't spend $100 a month (about the speed of assembly and painting for new players) doesn't have disposable income for any hobby.

Biking, skiing, boating, motorcycles, electronic gaming, etc. all have much higher costs associated over time, while $1000 dollars worth of assembled models can be used pretty much forever if players are still around.

Unfortunately, the time investment is the main issue with accessibility for new players. New players can look forward to assembling (and learning form mistakes) painting (and learning from mistakes) just to field a force that actually meets the style of the hobby.

The main issue is that the game does not scale well from small point games to large ones, so building up an army over time isn't very enjoyable either.

Most codexes aren't hardcover yet. If you want to pick up, say, Grey Knights or Blood Angels, you're not going to need one since the chances of getting a new codex soon is very slim.

 snooggums wrote:
The main issue is that the game does not scale well from small point games to large ones, so building up an army over time isn't very enjoyable either.

If by 'the game' you are referring to 40k, it actually does. It's actually quite enjoyable building an army in 500pt increments as you build and paint stuff and scale to bigger games. Don't take too long - aim for a new 'block' every month or two if you can afford it and have the time to paint it that fast.

It's even more enjoyable if you have a friend do it with you, gradually scaling battles against each other. 500pt blocks means you won't be left with a unit that needs support but without the support, but is small enough to get painted rather quickly.

Wargaming is never that cheap.

Lead soldiers back when weren't cheap, and when i got into Epic it took a lot of persuasion form my parents to believe that a tank the size of a bent 50p coin was worth several quid.

I've been playing 40K since it began, and whfb before that. I have stoopid lots of orks from across that whole time. I have probably put about 8000.00 or so into just them over the years, and there have been other armies also (though now i only have 3...)

Granted, some of it was picked up used, or converted. AOBR was a freaking godsend.

Would i trade them in for that 8,000 cash in hand right now, no questions asked

No.

They have been worth every single penny for me, and more.

Do i consider the prices too high? Yup. definitely.

Will i keep buying them anyway? Yup. Not for my Orks (barring some FW stuff i still want), but my DE certainly.

To me it's worth it (but i DO reserve the right to bitch about the prices )

 cormadepanda wrote:
Well, the topic if i am not mistaken was "is wargaming cost prohibitive" The answer is no. Its a average cost of some other hobby.

Original post actually mentions it as an entry cost thing:

I'm concerned to say the least! The average kid just getting started has to fork out some serious "lunch money" just to get in to the hobby!

 -Loki- wrote:

 snooggums wrote:
The main issue is that the game does not scale well from small point games to large ones, so building up an army over time isn't very enjoyable either.

If by 'the game' you are referring to 40k, it actually does. It's actually quite enjoyable building an army in 500pt increments as you build and paint stuff and scale to bigger games. Don't take too long - aim for a new 'block' every month or two if you can afford it and have the time to paint it that fast.

It's even more enjoyable if you have a friend do it with you, gradually scaling battles against each other. 500pt blocks means you won't be left with a unit that needs support but without the support, but is small enough to get painted rather quickly.

This is very true. I'm just coming up to the end of an escalation league I've been playing with friends, starting at 500pts then building and painting in 250pts increments. It's been a lot of fun and I've learned a lot about my army's playstyle (DE). I'd recommended this style of play to anyone.

Actually I find my car is my major eater of funds. If I could leave well enough alone I'd be fine but....Eh, at least I have a smile on my face to and from work.

Really wargaming isn't all that bad on the wallet if you are smart. Having a group willing to play smaller games for a while helps with start up costs, Escalation leagues are great! That's actual how I got into FoW and now I have more German than I ever need. I also have found that waiting to buy new stuff until I've finished painting the current set has made my hobby dollars go quite a bit further. Especially since it takes me ages to finish painting something.

Or we can all play X-wing....>.>

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:While individual items are expensive, if you look at it from cost per hour it looks much, much better

Going to the cinema for 1.5 hours = £7-10

A book (about 4 hours for me) = £8

A night out 8 hours = £50-80

A new Xbox 360/PS3 game (6 hr +, depends on how good it is) = £40

If you paint your own units, wargaming is cheaper per hour, even if you don't if you and your friends game a lot it can still work out pretty cheap

(although the intitial outlay can be higher, as has been said above you could easily factor in a console/PC when costing your gaming)

A night out unless your going to london does not cost £50-£80 more like £30-40.

If you get a game like COD or one of those multiplayer games it can last you for months.

 Marthike wrote:


A night out unless your going to london does not cost £50-£80 more like £30-40.

If you get a game like COD or one of those multiplayer games it can last you for months.

Depends on the individual to be honest, a night out for me costs about £50 at the cheapest if i stay local and over a hundred if the mrs wants a meal or i go to town.
I agree with the games though, i buy one game like bf3 and im done for an age !

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I am much, much less interested in tabletop wargaming then I once was. There are several factors at play though, ranked more or less in order:

Warmachine never really was able to get a hold on me,
6th Edition doesn't look appealing to me;
Over just the few years I've been playing, the constant price hikes are making it ever more expensive for me to stay in the HHHobby,
I don't like Finecast very much and it's becoming more predominant, and;
The actual model design is getting less and less appealing to me - I really am not excited about the new Chaos releases by virtue of bad models, something I would have found unthinkable just 2 years ago.

At this point I'm more interested in trying to get Pathfinder going with my family. Everyone can play, the learning curve is so much lower, the actual gaming sessions are faster, and it just seems to be more fun.

Speaking more generally though, no, I don't think wargaming is cost prohibitive. Going to the movies twice a month probably costs more then most tabletop wargames. Perhaps the Games Workshop HHHobby is getting more cost prohibitive in comparision with it's peers like WM & Infinity, et al, but that's not the thread title.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
For LOTR miniatures?

Not LOTR, that's a franchise, but you can get fairly generic 12mm fantasy that'll cover most of it (Orcs, Dwarves, Humans, Elves, Undead): http://www.kallistra.co.uk/?page=19

Just about 2-3 months ago, i was newbie thinking about jumping into the 40k scene, I can tell from recent memory that it was tough to jump in. I liked 40k a lot even before I got my space marines, the only thing that was concerning me about the price. A combat squad of Tac marines cost $5 per model, which to me was pretty expensive considering how easy it looks to be able to make those figures. I don't have too much of a problem getting the money for them, and I realize that companies get pinched in hard economic time like here in the US, but it seems that there may be a discrepancy in how GW prices its goods. Considering it should be relatively cheap to make the components, GW products shouldn't be $5 per model if they want many younger people to jump in, especially in rough times economically.

 ace101 wrote:
Just about 2-3 months ago, i was newbie thinking about jumping into the 40k scene, I can tell from recent memory that it was tough to jump in. I liked 40k a lot even before I got my space marines, the only thing that was concerning me about the price. A combat squad of Tac marines cost $5 per model, which to me was pretty expensive considering how easy it looks to be able to make those figures. I don't have too much of a problem getting the money for them, and I realize that companies get pinched in hard economic time like here in the US, but it seems that there may be a discrepancy in how GW prices its goods. Considering it should be relatively cheap to make the components, GW products shouldn't be $5 per model if they want many younger people to jump in, especially in rough times economically.

I think that they're currently really expensive because of the economic condition. They want to ensure profits during this period. Maybe after the recession is over prices will not increase so much? he said optimistically

 Ouze wrote:

Warmachine never really was able to get a hold on me,
6th Edition doesn't look appealing to me;
Over just the few years I've been playing, the constant price hikes are making it ever more expensive for me to stay in the HHHobby,
I don't like Finecast very much and it's becoming more predominant, and;
The actual model design is getting less and less appealing to me - I really am not excited about the new Chaos releases by virtue of bad models, something I would have found unthinkable just 2 years ago.

Weirdly, none of these are a problem for me, because I don't play games by PP or GW. I would suggest the same thing for anybody thinking "I'm not as interested in tabletop gaming anymore because PP & GW suck now".

Yes GW is expensive with constant price increases. I remember back around 1980 you could get ral partha miniatures for DnD for about $1.00, with things like trolls being $2-3. A dragon with lots more metal was something like $6. If I buy a hive guard, venomthrope or deathleaper for nids it coss about $30. Sure the sculpt quality on most models is better (not all - look at some of the older models).

Even doubling the cost of a troll to $6 (about the same amount of metal as a hive guard) to allow for better sculpting, the price is 5 times higher (obviously done roughly but those that remember should see the point). Incomes for most jobs hasn't increased 5 times.

If I look just from the time I started 40k in mid 4th edition, a codex was about $22-24. In about 6 years the price has jumped to 25, then 29, then into the thirties heading towards $40. Now with hardcover it has jumped dramatically again (GW adds a few bucks of stuff/costs and charges $15+ in addition.

It doesn't matter that buying a boat is more expensive or a computer. This is an expensive hobby, where the company routinely invalidates many of your purchases.

This is an expensive hobby, where the company routinely invalidates many of your purchases.

Where ONE company does this. It'd be nice if people stopped equating "the hobby" to "GW".

If I didn't start this hobby 15 years ago it would be very difficult to get into now. Start up costs for this hobby are expensive, just like any other hobby. Even if we compare warhammer to sports...hockey for example, it is still on par. To play in a mens league beer hockey league it costs over $500 per season. Let's look at start up costs too, hockey gear is not cheap. Sure you can get it second hand and save some coin but new gear will run you well over another 500$. Sticks alone are $100 and you can go through 2-3 in a season.
We can sit here and complain about pricing but the fact is, if you enjoy something and it makes you happy does it really matter how much it costs. When you're dead your not taking your money, your warhammer, or your sporting goods with you so enjoy what you do and do it in a way you can afford.

Ok, TTWG isn't expensive, start up is, but to get the most out of your hobby, you don't need it, if i myself wasn't so dead set on starting Tau, i wouldn't need to buy anymore models. During this summer i was pressed for cash that i couldn't spend more then 5 dollars a week for entry fee into the gaming store.
How many other hobbies are there where you can still enjoy it with only 5$ a week for it?
Even driving your restored car costs more.
If people are not willing too pay for the hobby, they should go do something else, like fish or MMO's thosse are cheap.

You buy your models once, and that's pretty much it. Sometimes you buy more models and or more transport for them.

With console games, you need to buy the console and keep buying games.

For my 4 armies going well over 3k points each that I collected over 4 years time, I've spent around 2k USD total on everything. That's 500 USD a year. Less than the majority of owners of a 360, by quite a bit.

I believe that there is actually no reason to have bits of plastic resin marked up for this much money. Games-Workshop knows that it has a following, and KNOWS that people will buy their models. I'm not sure why they don't lower their prices. When I open a game store I'm going to cast my own pieces. Gana be so fething sick.

 Monasou wrote:
I'm not sure why they don't lower their prices.

Despite the chance that they'll continue to do ok, they probably want to continue making a profit during the recession. When it's over, who knows what will happen to their prices?

GW plc belive its better to have lower and lower sales volumes at higher and higher prices.

They would prefer to sell 10,000 boxes of Minatures for £100 each.
Rather than 200,000 boxes of minatures at £5 each.
(As its less work.)

Unfortnaley they appear to have forgetten the £Ms they invested in plastic manufacture to allow HIGH VOLUME production and low costing.

And the fact that so many other companies are happy to sell quality plastic minatures for the cost effective price due to maximisimng the high volume priduction of plastic manufacture.(Even though many have to outsource manufacture.)

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Monasou wrote:
I'm not sure why they don't lower their prices.

Despite the chance that they'll continue to do ok, they probably want to continue making a profit during the recession. When it's over, who knows what will happen to their prices?

They will do what the did before the recession. Raise there prices.

 cormadepanda wrote:
Well, the topic if i am not mistaken was "is wargaming cost prohibitive" The answer is no. Its a average cost of some other hobby. The real truth is MULTI-hobby is cost prohibitive. I argued a view that is true, you can get a army for 333$ 75$ rule book? 50$ codex pff . How many dakka members here actually went and shelled out for a new rule book when it came out? or waited for the box set release. How many people here really buy their armies fresh out of box new for every model? How many here really pay the full blown retail stright to gw? I mean seriously, if you want a unit, and lack funds, make a conversion its a hobby. I will sit here and argue that i could make 100 any space marine you want 150$. And you can still tell crap after that. Did i count buying books, dice and a 1$ measuring tape, no, i was only counting models. But yeah for 250$ you get a good amount of models, even new. and leaves you with 80$ for paints, glue, and brushes, and a hobby knife, and modeling putty.

THOSE are the costs involved in the hobby. YOU need the rulebook. YOu NEED the codex.

MANY members shelled out for the rule book. Just as MANY members shelled out for the chaos codex,. You see to want to make consoles all new and wargaming dirt chaep, and thats not the case. You can cut many corners as a non-newbie, but most folks rolling into either console gaming or wargaming generally dont. Like I said before- can you get a unit for under $5 like I did a good game? Your comparisons have been apples and oranges from the get go.

No you dont get a "good amount of models" for $250.. Your idea of good is somewhat crap. Where are your vehicals? Dreds? HQ? Heavy support? FA?

Yeah didnt think so.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
While individual items are expensive, if you look at it from cost per hour it looks much, much better

Going to the cinema for 1.5 hours = £7-10

A book (about 4 hours for me) = £8

A night out 8 hours = £50-80

A new Xbox 360/PS3 game (6 hr +, depends on how good it is) = £40

If you paint your own units, wargaming is cheaper per hour, even if you don't if you and your friends game a lot it can still work out pretty cheap

(although the intitial outlay can be higher, as has been said above you could easily factor in a console/PC when costing your gaming)

Heck, have you seen how expensive it is to go to a baseball or basketball game these days? I have miniatures that are 20+ years old now. How many other toys last that long.

Gifblaur wrote:

Really wargaming isn't all that bad on the wallet if you are smart. Having a group willing to play smaller games for a while helps with start up costs, Escalation leagues are great! That's actual how I got into FoW and now I have more German than I ever need. I also have found that waiting to buy new stuff until I've finished painting the current set has made my hobby dollars go quite a bit further. Especially since it takes me ages to finish painting something.

And thats true. And I also understand what corndepanda is saying, despite my arguement with him. You CAN cut alot of corners in wargaming to make cheaper. Hell I'm looking at a box of badly painted marines from canada that just need stripping.

However thats not what the OP is asking. Kids today looking at serious outlay of cost in lunchmoney- THAT is definately happening. I wouldnt recommend anyone getting in the hobby right now. Not at least the GW side. Not compared to a console or other miniature games. Or hell, even RPG's. I doubt any new kid coming into a GW hobby would know anything about used miniatures or anything like comdepanda is talking about, or even what bartertown is. Not compared to say gamestop and the shelves of clearly labeled new or used game and consoles in the store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:While individual items are expensive, if you look at it from cost per hour it looks much, much better

Going to the cinema for 1.5 hours = £7-10

A book (about 4 hours for me) = £8

A night out 8 hours = £50-80

A new Xbox 360/PS3 game (6 hr +, depends on how good it is) = £40

If you paint your own units, wargaming is cheaper per hour, even if you don't if you and your friends game a lot it can still work out pretty cheap

(although the intitial outlay can be higher, as has been said above you could easily factor in a console/PC when costing your gaming)

A night out unless your going to london does not cost £50-£80 more like £30-40.

carmachu wrote:

THOSE are the costs involved in the hobby. YOU need the rulebook. YOu NEED the codex.

MANY members shelled out for the rule book. Just as MANY members shelled out for the chaos codex,. You see to want to make consoles all new and wargaming dirt chaep, and thats not the case. You can cut many corners as a non-newbie, but most folks rolling into either console gaming or wargaming generally dont. Like I said before- can you get a unit for under $5 like I did a good game? Your comparisons have been apples and oranges from the get go.

No you dont get a "good amount of models" for $250.. Your idea of good is somewhat crap. Where are your vehicals? Dreds? HQ? Heavy support? FA?

Yeah didnt think so.

Well needing a codex and rule book sure. Actually paying money for it. That is another story, and another corner to cut. And it depends on what you feel a lot of models is. For me 300$ will buy me around 2000 or more points used, depending on the person. I will get a rule book and codex without paying; though a unknown method that is never mentioned for the life of me i forget how i do it.

However, even from the store, for 300$ for GWs absorbant amount of cost, i can walk away with 1000~pts or more in marines from box kits, and a dready if i want. You want a full force org for 300$ (my orange) you buy used, you want video games you pay 800$ (my apple). You got a 5$ game to go with a 300$ consoule, good for you. How much was more controllers so you can play with your friends? Perhaps additional hard drive space to store more data? Or paying for online gaming. You argue are using a much larger/different apple and orange with a ignorance of the entire cost and attempt to highlight the fact i don't say what you are getting with models while you argue you got a 5$ game.

In all reality, its lunch box money for sure, either hobby, video games or miniatures. But as a parent, i would have to say i am more likely to shell out for hobbies that are musical, artistic and creative, rather than a vegetative state of pushing a button for a visual reaction. A parent will pay 250$ for a console, plus 120$ for games, for a Christmas or something of the sort. If a kid expresses a want in a more realistic hobby in my opinion, why would they not shell out the same money? It is not like they are not getting anything for it.

Thus i ask the OP if they are talking of cost prohibitive as a job-less teenager/college kid vs a employed adult/teenager. If your employed, and single, and living in your parents house, you can afford to have a hobby. It ins't a hobby that is cost prohibitive, its the mindset and surroundings that provide the conditions to hobby or not hobby.

As said by a cool dude once: "To hobby, or not to hobby? That is the question."

The title should have been more in context with what the average person is going to pay for.

People who are already in the hobby will have a slanted look on this perspective. To myself, this hobby has gotten out of hand concerning price and what you get out on what you purchased.

You also have noticed I am not calling out one company over another, but the hobby in general.

The buying power of the average American, (as well as other parts of the world) have been stagnate or have been on the decline for the past 10+ years.

We in the US are in "The Loss Decade".

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/08/22/the-lost-decade-of-the-middle-class/

People are going to spend on what they think is important and/or what is told is important by massive marketing arms of corporation. Something that most hobby companies can not compete. A good marketing arm of any corporation can persuade the average consumer why their product is important to purchase, even during these times of economic change.

There is little discretionary income for the average person (in the US). They will choose what they feel gives them (generally) instant gratification by what they are shown by the media 24/7.

People who are already in the hobby will think otherwise and they will say that the hobby is not that expensive. But they are not the average consumer, but only a sliver of a niche of a consumer base that is within the massive multi-billion dollar entertainment industry of today.

This thread made me realize that some of us take discussing games a bit too seriously.