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This thread? Really?

Tyranid Biovore: $41.25

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1460219a&_requestid=1786459


/thread

While wargaming has never strictly been cheap, and there do remain a number of relatively cheap games out there (infinity, heavy gear, etc), overall it does cost significantly more than it used to, especially accounting for inflation. In an era when the average was is stagnant if not declining in many places, the cost of wargaming products from many companies is increasing at a rate significantly higher than inflation.

If, for instance, I were to rebuild my CSM army now for what it cost back in 2007, It'd cost me about 150-200% of what it did then, a mere 5 years ago, and we all know what's occurred between now and then.

Just a few months ago, in discussions regarding a combined "all in one" Space Marine book, people were raging against the possibility of having to pay $50 for a codex. Well, the basic paperback C:SM is now $41.25 and the considerably smaller page count C:CSM is $50.


There's no denying this hobby as a whole is significantly more expensive than it used to be, especially as a proportion of income. And it's only increasing.

Yes it's still cheaper than some hobbies, but it's definitely out of the reach of what would appear to be the target market of many wargaming companies. Mommy and Daddy aren't buying little timmy a tank kit or mechano-dragon for $75.

Yep, it's GW (and some others) that are prohibitively expensive. The hobby is not. Pick your game system and miniature provider well and you can do miniature wargaming on the ultra-cheap.

I would say its getting a little out of control yes. As far as the console's vs GW thing goes. As an adult with children I would choose the console's. the consol's provide instant gratification. You buy the system, controller and game your done. My kids can play right away without having to spend exorbitant amounts of time fulfilling wusiwug before they can play. I see more value in the console as well. They are an electronic piece of entertainment that allows for a wide veriaty of games for the whole family. Wargaming on the other had is basically a do it yourself board game (calm down and don't get your shorts in a wad). I love war gaming even though I don't get to play very often I do enjoy modeling and painting, but I do wish it was more reasonable.

I don't buy every codex anymore because its just not reasonable for me to do so. $60 dollars a month is the limit I set myself for free cash spending and I would rather buy models the books that I don't plan on using for anything other than a read through.

 SickSix wrote:
This thread made me realize that some of us take discussing games a bit too seriously.

we really can end the thread with. Social status defines hobbies, or another way to say that is, the amount of free cash you have. Since the world is in a decline/everyone going broke, i can see luxuries like games of any sort becoming less and less.

For startup costs, it all depends on what game you play. As for continuing costs, the prohibitive-ness depends fully on the customer-you keep buying anything in large amounts, it'll cost a lot of money.

Startup-wise, GW is expensive-you need to buy a rulebook, buy an army book, and buy models. GW does give you the option to play at any point level, so you can start at 750 points and have relatively few models, but it'll still cost you about $100 for the models alone for that small list, if buying directly from GW, as well as book costs-figure $215 retail for about 25 models plus books

PP I can only speak for their summer deal: 25 points (average size game, I'm told) and the rulebook for $125. I got that for Khador, haven't played it yet, but I look at what I got and I'm perfectly okay with the price I paid directly to PP-about 20 models and the rulebook for $125.

Dust Warfare: buying from Miniature Market I can get each full unit for $9 ($15), small tanks for $16 ($25), and big tanks for $25 ($40) each. The rulebook, with all the armies, also cost $25 ($40). Retail prices in paranthesis. I paid around $200 for 2 large tanks, 2 rulebooks, 1 small tank, 7 or 8 infantry units and including special characters that I had to buy individually.

Kings of War: I bought clearance boxes on Miniature Market, and received 180 models, 8 of them metal, for $121 total. For Warpath I bought 106 Orx Marauders for $104, and this included 4 vehicles and 2 Captains. I have a full dwarf army that doesn't NEED any more models, but I'll still likely get some Brock Riders when they come out, and my Orx are doing well too. No more models needed, and I have a full army for each for ~$100. And those boxes, while clearanced, are still awesome deals at full price: 85 models each for $80 for dwarves, 50 infantry and 2 good sized vehicles for $80 for Orx. I would have been fine with paying $160 for 100 infantry and 4 vehicles, but why pay more if I don't have to? I have one retailer near me who stocks Mantic-he's an hour and a half away. I'll buy online at a great discount unless I happen to be going to Albany already, then I'll buy from him, but I'm not adverse to spending full retail on an army that's already a good buy.

 wowsmash wrote:
I would say its getting a little out of control yes. As far as the console's vs GW thing goes. As an adult with children I would choose the console's. the consol's provide instant gratification. You buy the system, controller and game your done. My kids can play right away without having to spend exorbitant amounts of time fulfilling wusiwug before they can play. I see more value in the console as well. They are an electronic piece of entertainment that allows for a wide veriaty of games for the whole family. Wargaming on the other had is basically a do it yourself board game (calm down and don't get your shorts in a wad). I love war gaming even though I don't get to play very often I do enjoy modeling and painting, but I do wish it was more reasonable.

I don't buy every codex anymore because its just not reasonable for me to do so. $60 dollars a month is the limit I set myself for free cash spending and I would rather buy models the books that I don't plan on using for anything other than a read through.

*nods* I feel the same way. No way I'd let my kids get into the GW hobby nowadays. I'd steer them to either console games or RPG's, RPG's seem to have the most fun per hour vs $$$ spent then even consoles. I might steer them into warmhaordes, but only if they demonstrated they really wanted to play.

That and a willingness to stick to it. Most kids now days hop from one thing to the next. I wouldn't fork over that kind if cash for them unless I felt they would use them.

i bought 4 boxes of assault marines, and 1 box of terminators for 125 bucks off ebay.

tax included and they offered free shipping. BRAND NEW models, the only thing they dont ship is the boxes and i dont give two craps about that.

if i went into the store and paid canadian prices, it would come to 248 with tax.

it's actually cheap if you shop around online.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i will say that failcast is a massive giant huge ripoff.

i havnt bought a single failcast ever and i dont plan to but still: where do they get off charging 25-30 bucks for a single failcast model when the quality will probably suck.

Wargaming isn't expensive because you don't actually destroy your models when you have a battle.

Its only expensive if you are a crazy own every army type of hobbyist. For the average Joe, it's hardly dear at all.

I own maybe 3000 points worth of Space Marines, collected over about three years, and some of them bought from ebay, I've probably only dropped about £300 on them, and add another hundred in for paints and codex, rulebooks.

I have spent far more on video games, books, DVDs, running shoes and a bicycle over that time. I think thats most of my hobbies covered.

Oh, and about £40,000 on booze.

No, wargaming is not cost prohibitive.

I'm saying that because I'm a guy who got back into the hobby two years ago when I was unemployed, and I'm still in it now. I'm living in Ireland and a freelancer in my thirties, and this isn't a combination that adds up to large amounts of disposable income.

And yet, I still have a mountain of unpainted models. And it still grows. And, while I rarely dabble in the GW end of the hobby, I do play a bit of those games, and I get away with it. I prefer historical games, but I'll play 40k and Infinity because that's where the action is around here. But really, if you want to play this game you can. What we do is this: we read things, we paint things, we gather with nice folk and push some toys around and roll dice. All of this can be done expensively or cheaply. And yes, there are companies that exist to drain as much money out of us as they can, but I'll not get into a discussion about capitalism here, as it's one of the few websites I don't go on about it on.

So what I'm saying is this, I can't afford to join an Apocalypse game this year or next, but I can, and do, afford to enjoy buying and painting models, and then playing wargames with them. And if I can, anyone who wants to can.

I think that "cost prohibition" is a very relative term... I played 40k during 5th ed. and what finally drove me out of this particular game was the price hikes of the new 6th ed. books and model price increases. The means that I have available for gaming are becoming increasingly tight, with 2 kids, bills and a looming career change (read, losing one job, and not sure what/where I'm gonna work next) have made it very irresponsible for me to continue with a game of 40k's size.

Luckily for me, I discovered Malifaux which even my wife has enjoyed thus far.

Understandably, one person saying that the "GW hobby" is cost prohibitive is saying this from his/her perspective, and does not invalidate anyone who says that it isn't this way. It's all in where we are in life, and what our personal cost/enjoyment ratio is. Each of us can, of course, throw out expensive hobbies that we may enjoy (cars, cigars, tattoos, video games, guns, airsoft/paintball, etc.) and that is all valid, but it's about individuals not a collective group.

Now, if GW was charging 300 for the base rule book, 150 for codices, and another 200 for a single land raider or tac squad, then yeah, I'd think there would be a very good "GW is priced themselves out of the market" or "the hobby is cost prohibitive" thread that would be much more objective than this.

With GWplc raising prices at 4 to 6 times the rate of inflation, it wont be too long before this happens...

As long a YOUR wargaming hobby is not totaly encompassed by 'the GW hobby tm'.
Then your wargaming hobby will not be come cost prohibitive.

It really does come down to if you shop smart (Shop S-Mart).

People buying GW issue brushes and paints are going to find costs adding up a ton way faster than just buying models from them.

It's not cost prohibitive if you know what to buy at the right time. I'll still buy from GW stores if I have the disposable income for it and I'm not in the mood for waiting for shipping, but more often than not I'd rather buy 2 Venoms for the price of 1 online.

It's expensive, but for the amount of thought and effort put into it, it's worth it in the long run.

And if you're willing to go that extra mile, there's always Forgeworld.

GW gaming has been cost-prohibitive for a long time for many folks.

However, Wargaming itself is one of the most affordable hobbies you can engage in.

Here's the main rub. If you want to wargame on a tight budget you're going to have to do the following two things yourself:

1) Research alternate games and miniatures
2) Build a gaming group. There aren't alot of groups of indie gamers out there.

However, I'm here to tell you it can be done.
2 years ago I started a game club based largely around the concept of affordable indie gaming.
Check out our blog for tons of info on cheap games, miniatures, terrain, etc.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/
I probably spend almost as much on gaming now as I did when I played only 40k, but I'm now playing several different games, making lots of terrain, and enjoying a much wider gaming hobby.

Check out the "Alternate Games you might enjoy" Thread in this very forum for many examples, but here's a 2 of quick suggestions for ultra-cheap gaming options that work for our club without confining us to a miniature board game or other inclusive gaming experience.

Fantasy Skirmish
Song of Blades and Heroes: 8$ for the rules. and 8 bucks each for expansions.
$20-30 for a warband made up of either cheap (EM4, Megaminis,etc) new figures or even less for used fantasy figs which are ridiculously cheap in lots on ebay.

Post Apoc Skirmish
Rules: Neutron York 3000 ($7), or free rules like Nuclear Renaissance, Necromunda, Wastelands Meltdown, etc.
Figs. 20-30 bucks will get you a warband from the same companies mentioned above, or go used for even better deals. Modify a few 1/43 die cast if your ruleset needs some vehicles and you're golden.

That's $30 buy-in (not counting paints) for some fun gaming that everyone can enjoy. With such a low entry cost, and no requirement to use "those miniatures with their game" there's no real risk to trying a ruleset you aren't sure about because you can always use your figs in a different ruleset.

Sum up, gaming is a cheap as you want it to be. It just takes a bit more initial effort if you want to game outside the comfy walls of the pre-packaged experience of on of the "big" games that come with minis, rules, and (most appealingly) a built-in gaming community.

Great post Eilif!

Add in 15mm skirmish gaming as an alternative to 28mm miniatures and putting together your force for the games you mentioned just go ridiculously cheap.

Though for Song of Blades & Heroes, I ended up going with Reaper Bones miniatures.

Good point!

I'm a dedicated 28mm devotee, but for those not tied to it, 15mm is an excellent scale. It's affordable at both the warband skirmish and platoon-or-greater level, and has seen quite a number of manufacturers get into the market resulting in a wide range of available figures in Historical, Fantasy and Sci-Fi genres.

If starting a gaming group from scratch, 15mm is definitely a scale to consider.

I just got into Bolt Action and decided to go for 15mm. For the same cost as a single 28mm army for that game, I have both German and Soviet armies four times the model count as the single 28mm army.

They're smaller, but I have a wide and deep collection for two army lists for the price of a single army build for one list if I went with 28mm.

I still love 28mm. I especially like the 1990s aesthetic that still kicks around in some lines like Mega Minis. I just got 80 plastic Warzone troops off of eBay for less than $40 after shipping, customs charges, etc.,.

I'm cutting off the bayonets, the bed rolls, getting rid of the drum clips and using both GW, Wargames Factory and Mantic bits off of ebay to customize guys with all sorts of weapons. I'm also doing head swaps.

50 cents a figure + bits.

ScarletSquig is also right about Mantic. Free rules cuts a considerable amount out of the price of the hobby. The miniatures aren't quite as cheap as my warzone guys, but they're still affordable.

If you want a skirmish game with plastic figures, you can try Malifaux by Wyrd Games. It's 32mm so they're a little taller than the average Space Marine but it shouldn't matter. Most of their line is metal but they have been moving to plastic this year. The Thunders faction is now mostly plastic as are the recent additions to the Arcanists and Resurrectionists.

War-gaming is not bad cost wise, now that I don't buy GW that is. I spent less on Infinity with 3 faction and DZC, even the new Batman game will not put over the top. If only GW had stayed with army size from when they started. For mass games should be at smaller scale like 10m or 15m, even GW knew this, but it didn't make as much money.

Noir wrote:
War-gaming is not bad cost wise, now that I don't buy GW that is. I spent less on Infinity with 3 faction and DZC, even the new Batman game will not put over the top. If only GW had stayed with army size from when they started. For mass games should be at smaller scale like 10m or 15m, even GW knew this, but it didn't make as much money.

Link for the Batman game, pretty please?????

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Noir wrote:
War-gaming is not bad cost wise, now that I don't buy GW that is. I spent less on Infinity with 3 faction and DZC, even the new Batman game will not put over the top. If only GW had stayed with army size from when they started. For mass games should be at smaller scale like 10m or 15m, even GW knew this, but it didn't make as much money.

Link for the Batman game, pretty please?????

Here you go: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/484456.page

Apologies for wall o'text, but I've been pondering something for a while and this thread is the exact topic. I'm not an economist and this is based on years of observation of miniwargaming as a whole, plus lots of time reading and thinking on the topic. Recently, I'm starting to think a bit differently on pricing.

GW has always been expensive. The were laughably expensive in the mid-90's when I was making a few dollars more than minimum wage. When I started up GW again in the early 2000's, the prices weren't bad because my financial situation was much more comfortable. Today I'm extremely comfortable and GW is back to laughably pricey due to the very rapid price increases over the last several years.

But you know what? I'm grateful. GW as market leader has priced their products at a level comparable to smaller/boutique manufacturers. At this point, even Forgeworld is starting to look downright affordable when compared to GW.

GW foolishly refusing to take advantage of economies of scale and pricing things so high means this: small companies can make their product, with their higher relative overhead, and have prices similar to GW that allow their business to work. If the trend of pricing in the market was lower, then the small companies couldn't get a start.

GW's pricing will allow their competition, and inevitable successor, to be born.

The Batman game is an excellent example of a miniwargame likely on the high end of customer price expectations, set by the market as lead by GW. But, really all the newer (relative to GW) games we have today is because GW's high pricing opened the door allowing them to give it a shot. And now plastics are starting to come out for the little guys (well hello, Malifaux!), which has to be at least in part because the market leader prices their plastics so high it is feasible. GW could Wal-Mart them (i.e. undercut to drive them out of business), but I don't think they will.

So, is wargaming too expensive? Of course it is all relative, but it may be more expensive than it should be, right now. In a few years things may start to look very different as some of the younger games/minis companies develop and really start to compete on pricing. I hope so, at least.

Again, not an economist here, just looking at it from another angle.

I think you're right about GW pricing allowing others to enter the market. They had a near monopoly in the late 90s and gave it away in the decade to follow with massive price increases. Injection molding technology has brought down plastic production prices to the point where small companies can now get involved in what used to be a GW only proposition. Especially given that GW has increased the expected price of plastic miniatures.

 TheGunslinger wrote:
It's expensive, but for the amount of thought and effort put into it, it's worth it in the long run.

And if you're willing to go that extra mile, there's always Forgeworld.

Unless you're an Aussie. Forgeworld is expensive, but if you want to go that extra mile, there's always GW!

 Gymnogyps wrote:

*SNIP*

So, is wargaming too expensive? Of course it is all relative, but it may be more expensive than it should be, right now. In a few years things may start to look very different as some of the younger games/minis companies develop and really start to compete on pricing. I hope so, at least.

Yes I think so. In a way, and perhaps perversely, we should be glad that GW is so expensive! It's allowed other companies to get off the ground and begin to flourish. We as fans of wargaming are all better off for that I feel.

Unless you're an Aussie. Forgeworld is expensive, but if you want to go that extra mile, there's always GW!

Although FW even makes more money out of antipodeans (and all non-EU residents actually) for that - they're getting the price of the mini, plus the 20% or so that UK buyers are paying extra for VAT (the tax added to most things here).

 Pacific wrote:

 Gymnogyps wrote:

*SNIP*

So, is wargaming too expensive? Of course it is all relative, but it may be more expensive than it should be, right now. In a few years things may start to look very different as some of the younger games/minis companies develop and really start to compete on pricing. I hope so, at least.

Yes I think so. In a way, and perhaps perversely, we should be glad that GW is so expensive! It's allowed other companies to get off the ground and begin to flourish. We as fans of wargaming are all better off for that I feel.

The main thing that hurts GW right now is it looks like there's finally some other games around with staying power. I went through all of the older phases - Warzone and the like. Nothing stuck, companies went under.

But now, Warmachine looks like it's not going anywhere, unless PP really screw up. Corvus Belli aren't going anywhere with their game getting more popular with every monthly release. Mantic, while I'm not a fan of their sculpts, are gaining a following if only for budget GW armies. Flames of War, Dropzone Commander and Dystopian Wars are covering the smaller scale nicely.

GW weathered the high prices in the past because they were the only real game in town. Other just never stuck around, and people went back to GW. Now they're going to other games that don't look like they'll fold. GW is still the big fish by a huge margin, but others are gaining. GW folding would definitely hurt the wargaming community, however.

Not all wargaming is expensive.

GW is expensive - especially when you factor in the costs of the sundries you need. The models are expensive enough but then you have to consider tools, brushes, paints, storage etc etc........also bitz and other more esoteric toosl you might need if you plan on doing elaboarate conversions or scratchbuilds

Look at it this way, i'm glad i made an apoc army 5 years ago and now just need to get the occaisional unit to keep my 40k army up to date. Prices have gone up so much just since i started, i dread to think how proper old school gamers must feel.