The two rivals for the primarchs!

Just wondering who Dakka likes more and why

Perturabo by far, he is one of my favorite Primarchs.

He is among the best trolls in the setting, having made no less than two of his brother Primarchs (Including Dorn) look like total tools.

Plus he's bros4life with Angron.

When I first got interested in 40k, I loved the Imperial Fists and so I also loved Rogal Dorn. At first, I was really impressed with his dogged loyalty and his unique humility before the Emperor. Over time, I became more fascinated with his anxieties, his ultimate personal breakdown following the installation of the Emperor on the Golden Throne, and the splintering of his personality into the successor chapters of his legion. His portrayal in the HH series has been okay if nothing particularly special so far, which is kind of a shame. I hope they do better with him at the close of the Heresy, where is about to fall himself.

That said, I voted for Perturabo.

For me pre-heresy Dorn.... post heresy anti-codex , best codex chapter , BT anti codex crap made me dislike him ...

@pilau knows how cool was Dorn back in the WD...

The Iron Cage is the most epic feat of trolling and douchebaggery of a Primarch. Easily.

I love Dorn, one of the most loyal Primarchs around. Plus his Legion guarded the Emperor before Custodes, now how cool is that?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I love Dorn, one of the most loyal Primarchs around. Plus his Legion guarded the Emperor before Custodes, now how cool is that?

Khm what ??? You mean with the Custodes ?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I love Dorn, one of the most loyal Primarchs around. Plus his Legion guarded the Emperor before Custodes, now how cool is that?

Wait where does it say they guarded him before the custodians? Don't think that's right

My avatar should give you a hint as to who I voted for. And the Iron Cage Incident is easily one of my favorte pieces of fluff in the 40k universe.

 Coolyo294 wrote:
My avatar should give you a hint as to who I voted for. And the Iron Cage Incident is easily one of my favorte pieces of fluff in the 40k universe.

Dorn is your man...:-)




But seriosly what do you like about Perturabo? Just curious.....

Dorn because I love the fists, and had an army of them until I realised that I had better things to do than paint 50 layers of yellow, so they are now storm wardens (the sig lies)

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I love Dorn, one of the most loyal Primarchs around. Plus his Legion guarded the Emperor before Custodes, now how cool is that?

Wait where does it say they guarded him before the custodians? Don't think that's right

"In prosecuting the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces and served as his personal Praetorians. As a strategic reserve force, the Legion rapidly deployed between battlefields, characteristically employing siege and defensive warfare as the situation required, specialising in each."

Index Astartes II.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I love Dorn, one of the most loyal Primarchs around. Plus his Legion guarded the Emperor before Custodes, now how cool is that?

Wait where does it say they guarded him before the custodians? Don't think that's right

"In prosecuting the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces and served as his personal Praetorians. As a strategic reserve force, the Legion rapidly deployed between battlefields, characteristically employing siege and defensive warfare as the situation required, specialising in each."

Index Astartes II.

Then you write "in front of" custodes there were "IF" NOT "before"....

Anyway, they guarded him before Custodes became massive. Only later when Emperor found Dorn and Custodes became more massive did the Emperor stop using them as his bodyguards.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Anyway, they guarded him before Custodes became massive. Only later when Emperor found Dorn and Custodes became more massive did the Emperor stop using them as his bodyguards.

Didn't know that, are you sure...? I' aways thought that custodes predate astartes...

Psh Dorn is the man.

 DarthMarko wrote:

Didn't know that, are you sure...? I' aways thought that custodes predate astartes...

Quite sure, Index Astartes II said that they were his personal Preatorians before he found Dorn, and even after some time he discovered him.
Meaning that he either was developing them or that they were to few to accompany him across the galaxy.

Dorn, primarch progenitor!

Custodes do predate fists

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
The two rivals for the primarchs!

Just wondering who Dakka likes more and why

Dorn's the man. I'm a Crimson Fist, i gotta, bra.

Dorn. He is just a bro. Not to mention I cannot stand Perturabo.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Dorn. He is just a bro. Not to mention I cannot stand Perturabo.

BROFIST!

 FJ wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Dorn. He is just a bro. Not to mention I cannot stand Perturabo.

BROFIST!

IMPERIAL BRO-FIST!

Enough with the spam.

 Manchu wrote:
Enough with the spam.

haha Alright.

I myself like Dorn because he was the Primarch of imperial Fists (one of my favorite chapters and founding one of my Iron Knights) I always loved siege warfare and he personified mastery of this (even with the whole Iron Cage kerfluffle.) Also he isn't perfect, but he does the best he could after the heresy.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Coolyo294 wrote:
My avatar should give you a hint as to who I voted for. And the Iron Cage Incident is easily one of my favorte pieces of fluff in the 40k universe.

Dorn is your man...:-)

Dorn is most certainly not my man.

 DarthMarko wrote:
But seriosly what do you like about Perturabo? Just curious.....

1. Cool colour scheme
2. A legitimate reason to rebel against the Imperium, instead of being a whiny bitch like Lorgar
3. Siege tactics are cool
4. Artillery
5. More artillery

Dorn, because Perturabo was a bit of an idiot.

"Oh derp, I'm tired of being the guy who does sieges! I'm gonna betray everyone I ever knew, and join the other side... just so that I can do more sieges!"

 Melissia wrote:
Dorn, because Perturabo was a bit of an idiot.

"Oh derp, I'm tired of being the guy who does sieges! I'm gonna betray everyone I ever knew, and join the other side... just so that I can do more sieges!"

That is not and never was Perturabo's issue. He was very well-aware and proud of his affinity for siegecraft (Which is largely why Perturabo and Dorn have a rivalry in the first place), his issue was that his legion was spread thin for garrison duty, and that his own contributions to great battles were often entirely overlooked in favor of his brothers.

So it was his massive ego then. I still don't respect his reasons.

Perturabo's entire character seems to basically be the definition of butthurt. So on that notion I vote for Dorn. Plus, Black Templars.

Dorn and the IF are dry as hell though.

 Melissia wrote:
So it was his massive ego then. I still don't respect his reasons.

You really shouldn't. Perturabo is in all likelihood the most genuinely sinister Primarch, rivaled by Mortarion (Not counting lolFulgrim of course).

To be honest, I have almost no respect for any o the traitor legions' reasons for treason; it's mostly those who were forced in to it that I have some respect for. And even then, frankly, Magnus was still a bit of an idiot, although Horus was more to blame than Magnus was.

Who would that be? The Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children?

Magnus and the old style Motarion . No clue about how Mortarion was retconned, I can't bring myself to give a gak about the newest retcon of the Horus Heresy. It's all so overdone it's kinda getting boring :/

Mortarion, really?

Even in Index Astartes, he hated the Emperor for having the audacity to save him from death (Compare that to how the Emperor handled Angron), and I guess because he hated those weaker than him (humans) being given positions of authority.

Magnus is my favoritest Primarch though, so yeah, lol.

The way I remember Mortarion's reason for betrayal was that he was forced in to it because Nurgle infected his legion and he felt he had no choice except to turn to Nurgle (not knowing his legion was actually infected by him) to save them.

I lost track of how many times the various primarchs have changed though, so I could be misremembering. GW never gets bored of Horus Heresy, but I got bored of it a long time ago.

 Melissia wrote:
The way I remember Mortarion's reason for betrayal was that he was forced in to it because Nurgle infected his legion and he felt he had no choice except to turn to Nurgle (not knowing his legion was actually infected by him) to save them.

I lost track of how many times the various primarchs have changed though, so I could be misremembering. GW never gets bored of Horus Heresy, but I got bored of it a long time ago.

Oh feth, I forgot all about that.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is still how he fell to Chaos (He betrayed the Imperium willingly, but his fall to Chaos was orchestrated by Typhus, whom was already in Nurgle's pocket).

Perturabo's butthurt and utter hatred for someone who was never really that awful to him comes off as a bit bizarre, but I dislike Dorn's mary stu-ism at the same time. Though he certainly isn't as bad as Guilliman....

Perturabo because Dorn is kind of Mary-Stu-esque. The fortress trap was hilarious . Iron Warriors woo!

As legions on the TT and in fluff, I actually like both legions more than their primarchs and appreciate the paint schemes, tactics, and such displayed Voted for both on account for legion awesomeness

Dorn's only strengths as a character is his unwavering loyalty to the Emperor, and an adeptness at creating defenses, the latter of which is hardly infallible considering that Terra would have been lost to Horus if it weren't for the Space Wolf/Ultramarine reinforcements.

As far as flaws, the man basically sacrificed the majority of his own legion out of pride, throwing them into the meatgrinder that was the Iron Cage, for no reason at all other than being too prideful to not fall for what was obviously Perturabo's trap. As well, he nearly started a second civil war within the Imperium by telling Guilliman and his codex to go feth themselves.

I can't fathom how anyone could consider Dorn to be a Gary-Stu. Out of all the Primarchs, he's probably as flawed a character as you can get without becoming a bad guy.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Dorn's only strengths as a character is his unwavering loyalty to the Emperor, and an adeptness at creating defenses, the latter of which is hardly infallible considering that Terra would have been lost to Horus if it weren't for the Space Wolf/Ultramarine reinforcements.

As far as flaws, the man basically sacrificed the majority of his own legion out of pride, throwing them into the meatgrinder that was the Iron Cage, for no reason at all other than being too prideful to not fall for what was obviously Perturabo's trap. As well, he nearly started a second civil war within the Imperium by telling Guilliman and his codex to go feth themselves.

I can't fathom how anyone could consider Dorn to be a Gary-Stu. Out of all the Primarchs, he's probably as flawed a character as you can get without becoming a bad guy.

Completly agree, and if you read "the Crimson fist" you see how IF could/can kick Perturabo in the arse and their TOTAL devotion to the Emperor...
My problem is what happened later, its like Dorn lost his mind or something...

In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

 Tadashi wrote:
In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

Did you read "the Crimson Fists" ? Read it...Now give me some insight (books) which show how briliant Perturabo is...

Fact is I changed my mind on him after that book...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

Did you read "the Crimson Fists" ? Read it...Now give me some insight (books) which show how briliant Perturabo is...

Spoiler:

Lowly IF captain kicks Perturabo's fleet like he was common punk which pisses him off (kills one of his captains)- and then comes astropath with a message that fleet must imidiatly return to Terra (Dorn orders),which he follows (devotion) and gets hammered while retreating

Fact is I changed my mind on him after that book...

Except that he was talking about Perturabo's skill in siegecraft and fortification. Not void-space naval battles, as is the case of the Crimson Fist you brought up. Probably the best example of Perturabo's brilliance in siegecraft and fortification is, y'know, during the Siege of Terra.

 Ronin wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

Did you read "the Crimson Fists" ? Read it...Now give me some insight (books) which show how briliant Perturabo is...

Spoiler:

Lowly IF captain kicks Perturabo's fleet like he was common punk which pisses him off (kills one of his captains)- and then comes astropath with a message that fleet must imidiatly return to Terra (Dorn orders),which he follows (devotion) and gets hammered while retreating

Fact is I changed my mind on him after that book...

Except that he was talking about Perturabo's skill in siegecraft and fortification. Not void-space naval battles, as is the case of the Crimson Fist you brought up. Probably the best example of Perturabo's brilliance in siegecraft and fortification is, y'know, during the Siege of Terra.

So directing a full might of his fleet on 2/3 ds Retribution fleet (who is standing )isn't a siege? O. K. - he must use catapult and be on the ground
btw it still shows how he is tactial genius

The Iron Cage incident - all but destroying the Imperial Fists.

The Siege of Terra - Dorn's vaunted fortifications were breached by the Iron Warriors. I'd even bet if the roles were reversed, and it was Dorn who went traitor and Perturabo remained loyal (which might have been had Perturabo and not Dorn accompanied the Emperor back to Terra), then the Imperial Palace would have stood inviolate to the end, and the Emperor need not have confronted Horus.

The Iron Within - loyalist Iron Warriors...even the Ultramarines Champion implied that Guilliman believed in the superior siegecraft and fortification skills of the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists.

 Tadashi wrote:
The Iron Cage incident - all but destroying the Imperial Fists.

The Siege of Terra - Dorn's vaunted fortifications were breached by the Iron Warriors. I'd even bet if the roles were reversed, and it was Dorn who went traitor and Perturabo remained loyal (which might have been had Perturabo and not Dorn accompanied the Emperor back to Terra), then the Imperial Palace would have stood inviolate to the end, and the Emperor need not have confronted Horus.

The Iron Within - loyalist Iron Warriors...even the Ultramarines Champion implied that Guilliman believed in the superior siegecraft and fortification skills of the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists.

Again you and Guiliman I knew that you gonna pull that out ( swear to God )...Feth papa smurf - freaking Horus thought that Dorn is the best in building and I tend to agree....

Siegecraft - Perturabo (because he is an engineer like me ) , masonry - Dorn...thats my view

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
The Iron Cage incident - all but destroying the Imperial Fists.

The Siege of Terra - Dorn's vaunted fortifications were breached by the Iron Warriors. I'd even bet if the roles were reversed, and it was Dorn who went traitor and Perturabo remained loyal (which might have been had Perturabo and not Dorn accompanied the Emperor back to Terra), then the Imperial Palace would have stood inviolate to the end, and the Emperor need not have confronted Horus.

The Iron Within - loyalist Iron Warriors...even the Ultramarines Champion implied that Guilliman believed in the superior siegecraft and fortification skills of the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists.

Again you and Guiliman I knew that you gonna pull that out ( swear to God )...Feth papa smurf - freaking Horus thought that Dorn is the best in building and I tend to agree....

Which was why he made sure Perturabo was on his side, and that Guilliman was too busy.

Ultimately, the difference between the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors is simple, but profound. The Imperial Fists do not believe their fortifications would ever fall - even Dorn boasted (and Horus accepted) no one could best his fortifications. The Iron Warriors are different - they know, as only warriors who specialize in siegecraft and fortification would know, that all fortresses fall, sooner or later. And they accept that and prepare for it. The Imperial Palace fell before them, rendering Dorn's boast moot, and since Dorn never prepared for the Palace's fortifications to fall, the Emperor had to accept Horus' challenge. In the Iron Cage, Perturabo knew and accepted that Dorn and the Imperial Fists would eventually breach his fortress - and they made preparations accordingly. In Lesser Damantyne, Warsmith Dantioch knew he couldn't hold off some opponents, so he made preparations - and when the fortress fell, the enemy fell with it.

EDIT: IRL, The Art of War advises commanders to prepare for the inevitability of defeat. Except the Imperial Fists don't believe in defeat. The Iron Warriors do. Guess that proves who is superior...

 DarthMarko wrote:
So directing a full might of his fleet on 2/3 ds Retribution fleet (who is standing )isn't a siege? O. K. - he must use catapult and be on the ground
btw it still shows how he is tactial genius

A naval space battle still isn't a siege, nor a demonstration of one's aptitude at siegecraft/fortifications, regardless if the enemy fleet is just 'standing'. All Crimson Fists shows is Perturabo's incompetence at naval combat.

Ehhh. I wouldn't attribute too much of the Terra siege to Perturabo.

1. He had the resources of eight legions, Titan legios, and numerous traitor army regiments at his disposal. The loyalists were utterly outgunned, having only three legions and Terra's military.

2. Despite their superior firepower and manpower, the traitors still lost. They managed to breach Dorn's defenses eventually, but then, the Iron Fist's strategy was never to withstand Horus' attack indefinitely, but rather, to survive long enough for reinforcements from the UM, SW, and DA, which it succeeded in doing.

I stand by my earlier notion that Dorn's defenses aren't invulnerable, but considering that the Siege of Terra ended with the Iron Warriors running to the Eye with their tail between their legs, I don't really see how that can be summed up as a win for Perturabo.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Ehhh. I wouldn't attribute too much of the Terra siege to Perturabo.

1. He had the resources of eight legions, Titan legions, and numerous traitor army regiments at his disposal. The loyalists were utterly outgunned, having only three legions and Terra's military.

Four legions. Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, World Eaters and Night Lords. The Emperor's Children were massacring civilians, the Alpha Legion were off doing whatever it is they do, the Death Guard were stranded in the Warp (at least in the old fluff) and the Word Bearers were harassing the Ultramarines. And even then, numbers count for far less than normal in a siege, it's the walls, the guns and the tactics that make the difference. And of course, Terra's military should have been among the best in the galaxy, since they were there to protect the Emperor.

2. Despite their superior firepower and manpower, the traitors still lost. They managed to breach Dorn's defenses eventually, but then, the Iron Fist's strategy was never to withstand Horus' attack indefinitely, but rather, to survive long enough for reinforcements from the UM, SW, and DA, which it succeeded in doing.

The traitors lost because of circumstance. The siege of Terra wasn't meant to be a siege at all, it was meant to be an assassination, but because of the feth-up on Istvaan III, the loyalists had a chance to regroup. The fact that Perturabo managed to break the defences of the single most heavily defended planet in the Imperium in the little time he had is testament to his skill.

I stand by my earlier notion that Dorn's defences aren't invulnerable, but considering that the Siege of Terra ended with the Iron Warriors running to the Eye with their tail between their legs, I don't really see how that can be summed up as a win for Perturabo.

After the Siege, the Iron Warriors created a trap the decimated the Imperial Fists and eventually, then started turning planets into massive fortresses. Not exactly running with their tails between their legs.

 Durza wrote:

Four legions. Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, World Eaters and Night Lords. The Emperor's Children were massacring civilians, the Alpha Legion were off doing whatever it is they do, the Death Guard were stranded in the Warp (at least in the old fluff) and the Word Bearers were harassing the Ultramarines. And even then, numbers count for far less than normal in a siege, it's the walls, the guns and the tactics that make the difference. And of course, Terra's military should have been among the best in the galaxy, since they were there to protect the Emperor.

White Scar fluff states that the Kahn was engaging traitor legions across the whole planet, not just around the Emperor's palace, so the notion that the Emperor's Children were being ignored by the loyalists, and in turn were ignoring them ,is far-fetched. Besides, the fluff you're thinking of doesn't state that none of the Emperor's Children were participating in the Siege. The Death Guard are specifically mentioned in the 6E CSM codex to have participated in the Siege, as were the Alpha Legion and World Bearers.

The traitors lost because of circumstance. The siege of Terra wasn't meant to be a siege at all, it was meant to be an assassination, but because of the feth-up on Istvaan III, the loyalists had a chance to regroup. The fact that Perturabo managed to break the defences of the single most heavily defended planet in the Imperium in the little time he had is testament to his skill.

All war is circumstance. "Well they would have won if-if". There's going to always be an if.

If the Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels had been on Terra at the time of the siege, there's nothing Perturabo could have done.

After the Siege, the Iron Warriors created a trap the decimated the Imperial Fists and eventually, then started turning planets into massive fortresses. Not exactly running with their tails between their legs.

Non-sequitur. Nice try, though.

Thing about the Siege of Terra is accounts of it make it clear that Dorn organized quite a skilled defense with his limited resources and the traitor forces more or less were only a advancing due to overwhelming numbers and were taking enormous casualties for every step. Though they would have won eventually had the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels weren't all on the way to Terra. And the fuckup to that goes to the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords respectively as they were meant to destroy and/or bog down each Legion until Terra fell.

Gotta go for perturabo, more out of my casual dislike of dorn than anything else

I love them both, I can't pick one I like better

It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

live thread, live!!

 kitch102 wrote:
Gotta go for perturabo, more out of my casual dislike of dorn than anything else

This, but reversed. I never liked Perturabo - I just can't quite put my finger on the exact reason, though.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

They were. Horus orchestrated it so 3 of the most powerful legions weren't there. If his plan with Sanguinius had of worked then the seige would have been what it was meant to be, an assassination

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

It's pretty much a rule of thumb to outnumber your opponent when pulling a siege. Performing a siege with numbers equal to or less than your opponent is a really, REALLY bad idea.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

You had almost the entirety of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Childrens, much of the Iron Warriors & Word Bearers plus 3 Traitor Titan Legions and tens of millions of Cultists/Daemons/Mutants/Traitor Army (so large that these guys alone could encircle the entirety of the Imperial Palace) vs. Blood Angels (bled by this point)/White Scars/Imperial Fists, the Adeptus Custodes, 1 Titan Legion, and 1.5 Million Imperial Army. They were outgunned indeed, especially once Horus' fleet took command of the skies over Terra.

but then did they do well for being so outnumbered?

The palace was just about to be overrun when the Emperor teliported aboard Horus's flagship and ended it all. So no they were not doing well.

The traitors were thrown into total disarray as their leader was dead and the gods had abandoned them.

Plus the Ultramarines were just about to show up so they hightailed it out of there.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
but then did they do well for being so outnumbered?

All of Terra but the Inner Sanctum of the Palace had been overrun by the time the Emperor battled Horus, the loyalists would have lost eventually on their own. However the Inner Sanctum (filled with Custodes/Astartes/Sisters of Silence, the Emperor himself in a vast network of walls and catacombs) was going to be a gureling and vicious battle that could drag on for months potentially. And with the Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Ultramarines all on their way to Terra, Horus probably would have lost the siege when they arrived as his own forces were exhausted. This is why he "invited" the Emperor for a final showdown as killing him would win the war in 1 stroke.

People say it was a mistake for the Emperor to teleport aboard the Vengeful Spirit and he should have waited it out for reinforcements to arrive (Dorn for instance advocated this). I think the Emperor did it because he wanted to see if he could get through to Horus who he still loved.

Let me think : a charismatic chaos warrior who loves deadly toys and hazard stripes or a yellow ultramarine...

Dorn is my boy and all, but having just read the Iron Warrior omnibus I becoming a big IW fan.

I still think that even outnumbered and outgunned, if Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were holding the Imperial Palace instead of Dorn and the Imperial Fists, they would not have been overrun/fallen.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
but then did they do well for being so outnumbered?

considering the fortifications they were facing, Perturabo and friends did astoundingly well.

Both. Perturabo would make a cool looking daemon prince. A robot/devil superknight.
I also admire the never-give-up attitude of the Fists (although I have hated their colour scheme for as long as I can remember). I don't care for those Horus Heresy books, so I don't know how they are on a human level.

I may be a little biased (hence my sig and avatar).


Perturabo all the way. Can't wait for FW to do a model of him. Also really looking forward to Angel Exterminatus - from the looks of it we might finally get some decent background on him.

Biased vote - Dorn

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Durza wrote:

Four legions. Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, World Eaters and Night Lords. The Emperor's Children were massacring civilians, the Alpha Legion were off doing whatever it is they do, the Death Guard were stranded in the Warp (at least in the old fluff) and the Word Bearers were harassing the Ultramarines. And even then, numbers count for far less than normal in a siege, it's the walls, the guns and the tactics that make the difference. And of course, Terra's military should have been among the best in the galaxy, since they were there to protect the Emperor.

White Scar fluff states that the Kahn was engaging traitor legions across the whole planet, not just around the Emperor's palace, so the notion that the Emperor's Children were being ignored by the loyalists, and in turn were ignoring them ,is far-fetched. Besides, the fluff you're thinking of doesn't state that none of the Emperor's Children were participating in the Siege. The Death Guard are specifically mentioned in the 6E CSM codex to have participated in the Siege, as were the Alpha Legion and World Bearers.

I didn't say that they weren't fighting loyalists, I said that they went off to kill civilians. They might have engaged against loyalists they came across, but their contribution to the actual siege would have been negligible, since for the most part, they were completely insane. As for numbers, don't forget that the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard had just purged their ranks of loyalists in a three month battle which apparently inflicted 'significant losses' on them. The loyalists were outnumbered, but not as much as you seem to think, since hardly any of the traitor legions were at full strength.

The traitors lost because of circumstance. The siege of Terra wasn't meant to be a siege at all, it was meant to be an assassination, but because of the feth-up on Istvaan III, the loyalists had a chance to regroup. The fact that Perturabo managed to break the defences of the single most heavily defended planet in the Imperium in the little time he had is testament to his skill.

All war is circumstance. "Well they would have won if-if". There's going to always be an if.

If the Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels had been on Terra at the time of the siege, there's nothing Perturabo could have done.

Of course, but the fact is that he did breach the defences of the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium, in circumstances that were far less than ideal, which shows his skill in siegecraft.

After the Siege, the Iron Warriors created a trap the decimated the Imperial Fists and eventually, then started turning planets into massive fortresses. Not exactly running with their tails between their legs.

Non-sequitur. Nice try, though.

I don't see how an event that took place immediately following the battle of Terra is a non-sequitur.

 Durza wrote:
[ As for numbers, don't forget that the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard had just purged their ranks of loyalists in a three month battle which apparently inflicted 'significant losses' on them. The loyalists were outnumbered, but not as much as you seem to think, since hardly any of the traitor legions were at full strength.

In Galaxy in Flames I'm pretty sure it's said that the World Eaters had just over half of their Legion remaining aften Istvaan III. They were the worst hit, but that's a big blow to the traitors. Still, of the Loyalists only the Imperial Fists seem to have been unscathed - the Blood Angels and White Scars had both been in combat with the traitor Legions. Also, isn't it said somewhere that the Word Bearers put recruitment into overdrive? I'd assume that all the Legions would do the same.

You're making me choose between mr. pornostache prussian and the guy who's named after Crowley's pet demon?

You sirs are evil.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
You're making me choose between mr. pornostache prussian and the guy who's named after Crowley's pet demon?

You sirs are evil.

so, I have a question. was Dorn only known for his ability to hold fortresses and make defenses, or did he go on the offensive too? opposite with Perturabo?

They where both known for there skill in siege craft, let it be ad attackers or defenders.
But I get the feeling each had a preference. Dorn being the defender and the iron warriors the attackers.
But they where skilled in both from what i can read.

That is indeed the case.

Perturabo's Legion was also noted to be very competent in martial combat, fighting with a grim ferocity that could rival the berserking fury of the Blood Angels and World Eaters, according to Index Astartes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That is indeed the case.

Perturabo's Legion was also noted to be very competent in martial combat, fighting with a grim ferocity that could rival the berserking fury of the Blood Angels and World Eaters, according to Index Astartes.

That I didn't know.
You learn more everyday, aye ?

Perturabo. Becaus Dorn was an bumbling idiot who's pride cost him most his legion. While mister hazard stripes made the whole imperium look like a bunch of children hiding behind a wall of mud.

Perturabo and IW = attack and defence
Dorn and IF = only defence (Horus thought that they are the best)

So pick your favorite...

Dorn: Gee, it's a trap. But what a challenge! Guess my boys are going into a meat grinder prove how brilliant I am! Oops.

Loser.

 amanita wrote:
Dorn: Gee, it's a trap. But what a challenge! Guess my boys are going into a meat grinder prove how brilliant I am! Oops.

Loser.

A similar blunder can be attributed to Perturabo, whose entire fleet was nearly defeated by a handful of battered IF ships, stranded in a godforsaken system. So as far as I am concerned, they both have their moments of screw-ups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Perturabo and IW = attack and defence
Dorn and IF = only defence (Horus thought that they are the best)

So pick your favorite...

This part here about Dorn and his Fists being primarily defense focused, is actually a misinterpretation of their fluff. Due to the IF being mostly associated with defending Terra in HH books, many people forget, or overlook the IF legion’s other attributes.

For starters, they are just as good at sieging as they are at making fortifications (the Iron cage proves this.) Even more surprising is their skill in close combat, where formations of tight packed warriors equipped with shields advances towards the enemy lines. But whereas the Irion warriors charges with a berserker’s fury, the IF adhere to discipline over all things.

Trenches, artillery and chainswords. Two legions in a nutshell.

I thought Dorn used the Iron Cage as way to bring his legion into compliance and start adhereing to the 1000 battle brother limit. Some of his veterans were too stubborn so he had no choice but to knowingly send them to their death on a hopeless mission, Dorn knew that while of his marines would split into chapters like the Crimson Fist, other more veteran astartes were too stubborn to split up the legion. I find all the primarchs interesting in different way, Dorn seems to be more reserved than most of the primarchs, not as much as Vulkan or Kahn but still more reserved than Guillamen or Sanguinus.

amudkipz wrote:
I thought Dorn used the Iron Cage as way to bring his legion into compliance and start adhereing to the 1000 battle brother limit. Some of his veterans were too stubborn so he had no choice but to knowingly send them to their death on a hopeless mission, Dorn knew that while of his marines would split into chapters like the Crimson Fist, other more veteran astartes were too stubborn to split up the legion. I find all the primarchs interesting in different way, Dorn seems to be more reserved than most of the primarchs, not as much as Vulkan or Kahn but still more reserved than Guillamen or Sanguinus.

Never thought of the Iron cage like that before nice description! so the iron cage wasn't a pompous mistake?

The alternative is that Dorn is a traitorous scumbag to his own men.

Would you prefer a moment of hot-blooded incompetence, or pre-meditated treachery?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The alternative is that Dorn is a traitorous scumbag to his own men.

Would you prefer a moment of hot-blooded incompetence, or pre-meditated treachery?

It doesn't matter. Dorn was an arrogant fool who thought his defenses were invincible. His Imperial Fists are the same. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are the opposite. They knows all fortresses fall, sooner or later, and so prepare accordingly. They are superior. The Emperor should have chosen Perturabo and the Iron Warriors to rebuild the Imperial Palace. If he had, it would never have been overrun in the first place.

They knows all fortresses fall, sooner or later

The Emperor should have chosen Perturabo and the Iron Warriors to rebuild the Imperial Palace. If he had, it would never have been overrun in the first place

It fills my dark and corrupted heart with no small amount of joy, when people contradict themselves on the internet.

It's Tadashi though, so it's not as sweet. More, expected.

- - - -

I'm curious to know where this "OMG PERTURABO MASTER OF DEFENSES" idea has come from. Provide sources, please. I've never seen nor neard anything that would suggest that Perutrabo is better at defending than, say, Dorn would be at attacking.

 Redcruisair wrote:

They knows all fortresses fall, sooner or later

The Emperor should have chosen Perturabo and the Iron Warriors to rebuild the Imperial Palace. If he had, it would never have been overrun in the first place

It fills my dark and corrupted heart with no small amount of joy, when people contradict themselves on the internet.

Perturabo would just blow the outer palace once its overrun, sealing the inner palace off beneath Mount Everest.

Konrad Curze.... but since he is not apart of the options... Perturabo.

Remember this. You can never overestimate the one who is always underestimated.

Perturabo ,sometimes he scares the gak out of me....

Hard choice but I find Dorn to be way to prideful for his good. Perturabo might not be the that better but he isnt stuck up snob. He is willing to change to win Imo

Dorn is probably my least favorite Primarch. He just seems like such a tool, so this is easy.

Dorn is the reason I never played Black Templars. Such a prideful, self righteous fool. He's an embarrassment imo, I really don't understand why anyone likes him.

 Red Viper wrote:
Dorn is probably my least favorite Primarch. He just seems like such a tool, so this is easy.

Dorn is the reason I never played Black Templars. Such a prideful, self righteous fool. He's an embarrassment imo, I really don't understand why anyone likes him.

I like him because of his siege expertise and his stubborness to his believes (even though it harms him a lot also) The fact that he makes mistakes makes him a little more likable imho and I like how he tries to pick up the pieces.

 Red Viper wrote:
Dorn is the reason I never played Black Templars. Such a prideful, self righteous fool. He's an embarrassment imo, I really don't understand why anyone likes him.

Everything bad about Dorn is embodied in the Black Templars, IMO.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

I just like Dorn, don't know why.

Perturado, he is just so cool

Perturabo, because if Honsou is any indication of who was the dominant one in the drunken one night stand Dorn and Perturabo clearly must have had, it's Perturabo.

 King Pariah wrote:
Perturabo, because if Honsou is any indication of who was the dominant one in the drunken one night stand Dorn and Perturabo clearly must have had, it's Perturabo.

And thats the ball game.

 King Pariah wrote:
Perturabo, because if Honsou is any indication of who was the dominant one in the drunken one night stand Dorn and Perturabo clearly must have had, it's Perturabo.

Wait....What?!

Seriously, this thread is in dire need of Angel Exterminatus

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
Perturabo, because if Honsou is any indication of who was the dominant one in the drunken one night stand Dorn and Perturabo clearly must have had, it's Perturabo.

Wait....What?!

Honsou is half IF and half IW.

How does that work?

Don't recall precisely how but that a warsmith (who fabius bile killed at some point) had been experimenting in combining iron warrior and imperial fist geneseed which eventually resulted in our dear honsou who is at times shunned for being a 'halfbreed.'

Ugh, McNeill ...

 Manchu wrote:
Ugh, McNeill ...

Yep...

ugh topic got derailed hard(ish)

 Manchu wrote:
Ugh, McNeill ...

I really don't see anything wrong with Honsou's origins. We know CSM are always in desperate need of gene-seed and that they used captured gene-seed to create new Marines. It's a delicious irony that Honsou had to be created from the most hated enemy of the Iron Warriors, and that this stigma only drives him.

McNeil did a great job with Honsou in Storm of Iron imo, it's just what comes after that....

 King Pariah wrote:
Don't recall precisely how but that a warsmith (who fabius bile killed at some point) had been experimenting in combining iron warrior and imperial fist geneseed which eventually resulted in our dear honsou who is at times shunned for being a 'halfbreed.'

It's not even that complicated if I recall and Fabius wasn't even involved

Honsou was created using Imperial Fist Geneseed, but he was taken from Olympian Stock, hence half breed (Storm of Iron P43). Might have been left over from the Iron Cage maybe?

 Manchu wrote:
Ugh, McNeill ...

I would agree in a few instances but Storm of Iron is a 40k masterpiece in my opinion, definitely up there with Daemonworld and Eisenhorn. 40k felt like 40k in these, some of the later books don't have the feeling any more.

I dunno man. I get the feeling that Storm of Iron is associated with that honeymoon experience of 40k, just like people who say Xth Edition was the best one. I read through the first dozen or so pages and thought it was good enough to buy other Graham McNeill books ... reading the first few pages of those made me stop buying his books (outside of the HH series, damn it).

 Manchu wrote:
I dunno man. I get the feeling that Storm of Iron is associated with that honeymoon experience of 40k, just like people who say Xth Edition was the best one. I read through the first dozen or so pages and thought it was good enough to buy other Graham McNeill books ... reading the first few pages of those made me stop buying his books (outside of the HH series, damn it).

off topic, I think the first 3 Ultramarine books where pretty good.


On topic: did the entirety of the emperor's palace fall? or just a portion? and how long did the siege last?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


On topic: did the entirety of the emperor's palace fall? or just a portion? and how long did the siege last?

All but the Inner Sanctum fell, and the length is consistent but an old Index Astartes article says 55 days.

My guess is in the HH series they're going to go for a longer length though.

I can still go and read Storm of Iron now and enjoy it. It has everything you could want in it and if McNeill could write like this all the time I would be happy. But he, like Counter, tend to miss the mark. Neither of their series have I been able to get into.

ADB is probably the most consistent with his works, and I have been most impressed by him, but I got the feeling with Void Stalker that he was beginning to fall into the same trap as with the more veteran writers.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


On topic: did the entirety of the emperor's palace fall? or just a portion? and how long did the siege last?

All but the Inner Sanctum fell, and the length is consistent but an old Index Astartes article says 55 days.

My guess is in the HH series they're going to go for a longer length though.

I hope not, I hope they leave stuff like this alone. I'm already confused at just how long from it's all taken from Ullanor up to where we are at present.

They really need to print some kind of timeline.

 Manchu wrote:
They really need to print some kind of timeline.

I would love this, I would pay proper good money for a Horus Heresy Encyclopaedia or A - Z.

You and me both!

why does GW have a habit of makeing dorn and his followers look like arsehats?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
why does GW have a habit of makeing dorn and his followers look like arsehats?

In fairness, they make most of the primarchs look like arsehats. Dorn just gets more time to look like an arsehat because he's a loyalist with a splinter chapter with their own codex, so naturally GW will write more about him.