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Perturabo's entire character seems to basically be the definition of butthurt. So on that notion I vote for Dorn. Plus, Black Templars.

Dorn and the IF are dry as hell though.

 Melissia wrote:
So it was his massive ego then. I still don't respect his reasons.

You really shouldn't. Perturabo is in all likelihood the most genuinely sinister Primarch, rivaled by Mortarion (Not counting lolFulgrim of course).

To be honest, I have almost no respect for any o the traitor legions' reasons for treason; it's mostly those who were forced in to it that I have some respect for. And even then, frankly, Magnus was still a bit of an idiot, although Horus was more to blame than Magnus was.

Who would that be? The Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children?

Magnus and the old style Motarion . No clue about how Mortarion was retconned, I can't bring myself to give a gak about the newest retcon of the Horus Heresy. It's all so overdone it's kinda getting boring :/

Mortarion, really?

Even in Index Astartes, he hated the Emperor for having the audacity to save him from death (Compare that to how the Emperor handled Angron), and I guess because he hated those weaker than him (humans) being given positions of authority.

Magnus is my favoritest Primarch though, so yeah, lol.

The way I remember Mortarion's reason for betrayal was that he was forced in to it because Nurgle infected his legion and he felt he had no choice except to turn to Nurgle (not knowing his legion was actually infected by him) to save them.

I lost track of how many times the various primarchs have changed though, so I could be misremembering. GW never gets bored of Horus Heresy, but I got bored of it a long time ago.

 Melissia wrote:
The way I remember Mortarion's reason for betrayal was that he was forced in to it because Nurgle infected his legion and he felt he had no choice except to turn to Nurgle (not knowing his legion was actually infected by him) to save them.

I lost track of how many times the various primarchs have changed though, so I could be misremembering. GW never gets bored of Horus Heresy, but I got bored of it a long time ago.

Oh feth, I forgot all about that.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is still how he fell to Chaos (He betrayed the Imperium willingly, but his fall to Chaos was orchestrated by Typhus, whom was already in Nurgle's pocket).

Perturabo's butthurt and utter hatred for someone who was never really that awful to him comes off as a bit bizarre, but I dislike Dorn's mary stu-ism at the same time. Though he certainly isn't as bad as Guilliman....

Perturabo because Dorn is kind of Mary-Stu-esque. The fortress trap was hilarious . Iron Warriors woo!

As legions on the TT and in fluff, I actually like both legions more than their primarchs and appreciate the paint schemes, tactics, and such displayed Voted for both on account for legion awesomeness

Dorn's only strengths as a character is his unwavering loyalty to the Emperor, and an adeptness at creating defenses, the latter of which is hardly infallible considering that Terra would have been lost to Horus if it weren't for the Space Wolf/Ultramarine reinforcements.

As far as flaws, the man basically sacrificed the majority of his own legion out of pride, throwing them into the meatgrinder that was the Iron Cage, for no reason at all other than being too prideful to not fall for what was obviously Perturabo's trap. As well, he nearly started a second civil war within the Imperium by telling Guilliman and his codex to go feth themselves.

I can't fathom how anyone could consider Dorn to be a Gary-Stu. Out of all the Primarchs, he's probably as flawed a character as you can get without becoming a bad guy.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Dorn's only strengths as a character is his unwavering loyalty to the Emperor, and an adeptness at creating defenses, the latter of which is hardly infallible considering that Terra would have been lost to Horus if it weren't for the Space Wolf/Ultramarine reinforcements.

As far as flaws, the man basically sacrificed the majority of his own legion out of pride, throwing them into the meatgrinder that was the Iron Cage, for no reason at all other than being too prideful to not fall for what was obviously Perturabo's trap. As well, he nearly started a second civil war within the Imperium by telling Guilliman and his codex to go feth themselves.

I can't fathom how anyone could consider Dorn to be a Gary-Stu. Out of all the Primarchs, he's probably as flawed a character as you can get without becoming a bad guy.

Completly agree, and if you read "the Crimson fist" you see how IF could/can kick Perturabo in the arse and their TOTAL devotion to the Emperor...
My problem is what happened later, its like Dorn lost his mind or something...

In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

 Tadashi wrote:
In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

Did you read "the Crimson Fists" ? Read it...Now give me some insight (books) which show how briliant Perturabo is...

Fact is I changed my mind on him after that book...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

Did you read "the Crimson Fists" ? Read it...Now give me some insight (books) which show how briliant Perturabo is...

Spoiler:

Lowly IF captain kicks Perturabo's fleet like he was common punk which pisses him off (kills one of his captains)- and then comes astropath with a message that fleet must imidiatly return to Terra (Dorn orders),which he follows (devotion) and gets hammered while retreating

Fact is I changed my mind on him after that book...

Except that he was talking about Perturabo's skill in siegecraft and fortification. Not void-space naval battles, as is the case of the Crimson Fist you brought up. Probably the best example of Perturabo's brilliance in siegecraft and fortification is, y'know, during the Siege of Terra.

 Ronin wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
In the science of siegecraft and fortification, Perturabo and his progeny have no equal. I would choose them over the Imperial Fists any day, traitor or not.

Did you read "the Crimson Fists" ? Read it...Now give me some insight (books) which show how briliant Perturabo is...

Spoiler:

Lowly IF captain kicks Perturabo's fleet like he was common punk which pisses him off (kills one of his captains)- and then comes astropath with a message that fleet must imidiatly return to Terra (Dorn orders),which he follows (devotion) and gets hammered while retreating

Fact is I changed my mind on him after that book...

Except that he was talking about Perturabo's skill in siegecraft and fortification. Not void-space naval battles, as is the case of the Crimson Fist you brought up. Probably the best example of Perturabo's brilliance in siegecraft and fortification is, y'know, during the Siege of Terra.

So directing a full might of his fleet on 2/3 ds Retribution fleet (who is standing )isn't a siege? O. K. - he must use catapult and be on the ground
btw it still shows how he is tactial genius

The Iron Cage incident - all but destroying the Imperial Fists.

The Siege of Terra - Dorn's vaunted fortifications were breached by the Iron Warriors. I'd even bet if the roles were reversed, and it was Dorn who went traitor and Perturabo remained loyal (which might have been had Perturabo and not Dorn accompanied the Emperor back to Terra), then the Imperial Palace would have stood inviolate to the end, and the Emperor need not have confronted Horus.

The Iron Within - loyalist Iron Warriors...even the Ultramarines Champion implied that Guilliman believed in the superior siegecraft and fortification skills of the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists.

 Tadashi wrote:
The Iron Cage incident - all but destroying the Imperial Fists.

The Siege of Terra - Dorn's vaunted fortifications were breached by the Iron Warriors. I'd even bet if the roles were reversed, and it was Dorn who went traitor and Perturabo remained loyal (which might have been had Perturabo and not Dorn accompanied the Emperor back to Terra), then the Imperial Palace would have stood inviolate to the end, and the Emperor need not have confronted Horus.

The Iron Within - loyalist Iron Warriors...even the Ultramarines Champion implied that Guilliman believed in the superior siegecraft and fortification skills of the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists.

Again you and Guiliman I knew that you gonna pull that out ( swear to God )...Feth papa smurf - freaking Horus thought that Dorn is the best in building and I tend to agree....

Siegecraft - Perturabo (because he is an engineer like me ) , masonry - Dorn...thats my view

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
The Iron Cage incident - all but destroying the Imperial Fists.

The Siege of Terra - Dorn's vaunted fortifications were breached by the Iron Warriors. I'd even bet if the roles were reversed, and it was Dorn who went traitor and Perturabo remained loyal (which might have been had Perturabo and not Dorn accompanied the Emperor back to Terra), then the Imperial Palace would have stood inviolate to the end, and the Emperor need not have confronted Horus.

The Iron Within - loyalist Iron Warriors...even the Ultramarines Champion implied that Guilliman believed in the superior siegecraft and fortification skills of the Iron Warriors over the Imperial Fists.

Again you and Guiliman I knew that you gonna pull that out ( swear to God )...Feth papa smurf - freaking Horus thought that Dorn is the best in building and I tend to agree....

Which was why he made sure Perturabo was on his side, and that Guilliman was too busy.

Ultimately, the difference between the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors is simple, but profound. The Imperial Fists do not believe their fortifications would ever fall - even Dorn boasted (and Horus accepted) no one could best his fortifications. The Iron Warriors are different - they know, as only warriors who specialize in siegecraft and fortification would know, that all fortresses fall, sooner or later. And they accept that and prepare for it. The Imperial Palace fell before them, rendering Dorn's boast moot, and since Dorn never prepared for the Palace's fortifications to fall, the Emperor had to accept Horus' challenge. In the Iron Cage, Perturabo knew and accepted that Dorn and the Imperial Fists would eventually breach his fortress - and they made preparations accordingly. In Lesser Damantyne, Warsmith Dantioch knew he couldn't hold off some opponents, so he made preparations - and when the fortress fell, the enemy fell with it.

EDIT: IRL, The Art of War advises commanders to prepare for the inevitability of defeat. Except the Imperial Fists don't believe in defeat. The Iron Warriors do. Guess that proves who is superior...

 DarthMarko wrote:
So directing a full might of his fleet on 2/3 ds Retribution fleet (who is standing )isn't a siege? O. K. - he must use catapult and be on the ground
btw it still shows how he is tactial genius

A naval space battle still isn't a siege, nor a demonstration of one's aptitude at siegecraft/fortifications, regardless if the enemy fleet is just 'standing'. All Crimson Fists shows is Perturabo's incompetence at naval combat.

Ehhh. I wouldn't attribute too much of the Terra siege to Perturabo.

1. He had the resources of eight legions, Titan legios, and numerous traitor army regiments at his disposal. The loyalists were utterly outgunned, having only three legions and Terra's military.

2. Despite their superior firepower and manpower, the traitors still lost. They managed to breach Dorn's defenses eventually, but then, the Iron Fist's strategy was never to withstand Horus' attack indefinitely, but rather, to survive long enough for reinforcements from the UM, SW, and DA, which it succeeded in doing.

I stand by my earlier notion that Dorn's defenses aren't invulnerable, but considering that the Siege of Terra ended with the Iron Warriors running to the Eye with their tail between their legs, I don't really see how that can be summed up as a win for Perturabo.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Ehhh. I wouldn't attribute too much of the Terra siege to Perturabo.

1. He had the resources of eight legions, Titan legions, and numerous traitor army regiments at his disposal. The loyalists were utterly outgunned, having only three legions and Terra's military.

Four legions. Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, World Eaters and Night Lords. The Emperor's Children were massacring civilians, the Alpha Legion were off doing whatever it is they do, the Death Guard were stranded in the Warp (at least in the old fluff) and the Word Bearers were harassing the Ultramarines. And even then, numbers count for far less than normal in a siege, it's the walls, the guns and the tactics that make the difference. And of course, Terra's military should have been among the best in the galaxy, since they were there to protect the Emperor.

2. Despite their superior firepower and manpower, the traitors still lost. They managed to breach Dorn's defenses eventually, but then, the Iron Fist's strategy was never to withstand Horus' attack indefinitely, but rather, to survive long enough for reinforcements from the UM, SW, and DA, which it succeeded in doing.

The traitors lost because of circumstance. The siege of Terra wasn't meant to be a siege at all, it was meant to be an assassination, but because of the feth-up on Istvaan III, the loyalists had a chance to regroup. The fact that Perturabo managed to break the defences of the single most heavily defended planet in the Imperium in the little time he had is testament to his skill.

I stand by my earlier notion that Dorn's defences aren't invulnerable, but considering that the Siege of Terra ended with the Iron Warriors running to the Eye with their tail between their legs, I don't really see how that can be summed up as a win for Perturabo.

After the Siege, the Iron Warriors created a trap the decimated the Imperial Fists and eventually, then started turning planets into massive fortresses. Not exactly running with their tails between their legs.

 Durza wrote:

Four legions. Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, World Eaters and Night Lords. The Emperor's Children were massacring civilians, the Alpha Legion were off doing whatever it is they do, the Death Guard were stranded in the Warp (at least in the old fluff) and the Word Bearers were harassing the Ultramarines. And even then, numbers count for far less than normal in a siege, it's the walls, the guns and the tactics that make the difference. And of course, Terra's military should have been among the best in the galaxy, since they were there to protect the Emperor.

White Scar fluff states that the Kahn was engaging traitor legions across the whole planet, not just around the Emperor's palace, so the notion that the Emperor's Children were being ignored by the loyalists, and in turn were ignoring them ,is far-fetched. Besides, the fluff you're thinking of doesn't state that none of the Emperor's Children were participating in the Siege. The Death Guard are specifically mentioned in the 6E CSM codex to have participated in the Siege, as were the Alpha Legion and World Bearers.

The traitors lost because of circumstance. The siege of Terra wasn't meant to be a siege at all, it was meant to be an assassination, but because of the feth-up on Istvaan III, the loyalists had a chance to regroup. The fact that Perturabo managed to break the defences of the single most heavily defended planet in the Imperium in the little time he had is testament to his skill.

All war is circumstance. "Well they would have won if-if". There's going to always be an if.

If the Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels had been on Terra at the time of the siege, there's nothing Perturabo could have done.

After the Siege, the Iron Warriors created a trap the decimated the Imperial Fists and eventually, then started turning planets into massive fortresses. Not exactly running with their tails between their legs.

Non-sequitur. Nice try, though.

Thing about the Siege of Terra is accounts of it make it clear that Dorn organized quite a skilled defense with his limited resources and the traitor forces more or less were only a advancing due to overwhelming numbers and were taking enormous casualties for every step. Though they would have won eventually had the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels weren't all on the way to Terra. And the fuckup to that goes to the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords respectively as they were meant to destroy and/or bog down each Legion until Terra fell.

Gotta go for perturabo, more out of my casual dislike of dorn than anything else

I love them both, I can't pick one I like better

It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

live thread, live!!

 kitch102 wrote:
Gotta go for perturabo, more out of my casual dislike of dorn than anything else

This, but reversed. I never liked Perturabo - I just can't quite put my finger on the exact reason, though.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

They were. Horus orchestrated it so 3 of the most powerful legions weren't there. If his plan with Sanguinius had of worked then the seige would have been what it was meant to be, an assassination