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 Tiger9gamer wrote:
It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

It's pretty much a rule of thumb to outnumber your opponent when pulling a siege. Performing a siege with numbers equal to or less than your opponent is a really, REALLY bad idea.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
It did seem the loyalists where outgunned at the siege of terra.

You had almost the entirety of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Childrens, much of the Iron Warriors & Word Bearers plus 3 Traitor Titan Legions and tens of millions of Cultists/Daemons/Mutants/Traitor Army (so large that these guys alone could encircle the entirety of the Imperial Palace) vs. Blood Angels (bled by this point)/White Scars/Imperial Fists, the Adeptus Custodes, 1 Titan Legion, and 1.5 Million Imperial Army. They were outgunned indeed, especially once Horus' fleet took command of the skies over Terra.

but then did they do well for being so outnumbered?

The palace was just about to be overrun when the Emperor teliported aboard Horus's flagship and ended it all. So no they were not doing well.

The traitors were thrown into total disarray as their leader was dead and the gods had abandoned them.

Plus the Ultramarines were just about to show up so they hightailed it out of there.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
but then did they do well for being so outnumbered?

All of Terra but the Inner Sanctum of the Palace had been overrun by the time the Emperor battled Horus, the loyalists would have lost eventually on their own. However the Inner Sanctum (filled with Custodes/Astartes/Sisters of Silence, the Emperor himself in a vast network of walls and catacombs) was going to be a gureling and vicious battle that could drag on for months potentially. And with the Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Ultramarines all on their way to Terra, Horus probably would have lost the siege when they arrived as his own forces were exhausted. This is why he "invited" the Emperor for a final showdown as killing him would win the war in 1 stroke.

People say it was a mistake for the Emperor to teleport aboard the Vengeful Spirit and he should have waited it out for reinforcements to arrive (Dorn for instance advocated this). I think the Emperor did it because he wanted to see if he could get through to Horus who he still loved.

Let me think : a charismatic chaos warrior who loves deadly toys and hazard stripes or a yellow ultramarine...

Dorn is my boy and all, but having just read the Iron Warrior omnibus I becoming a big IW fan.

I still think that even outnumbered and outgunned, if Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were holding the Imperial Palace instead of Dorn and the Imperial Fists, they would not have been overrun/fallen.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
but then did they do well for being so outnumbered?

considering the fortifications they were facing, Perturabo and friends did astoundingly well.

Both. Perturabo would make a cool looking daemon prince. A robot/devil superknight.
I also admire the never-give-up attitude of the Fists (although I have hated their colour scheme for as long as I can remember). I don't care for those Horus Heresy books, so I don't know how they are on a human level.

I may be a little biased (hence my sig and avatar).


Perturabo all the way. Can't wait for FW to do a model of him. Also really looking forward to Angel Exterminatus - from the looks of it we might finally get some decent background on him.

Biased vote - Dorn

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Durza wrote:

Four legions. Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, World Eaters and Night Lords. The Emperor's Children were massacring civilians, the Alpha Legion were off doing whatever it is they do, the Death Guard were stranded in the Warp (at least in the old fluff) and the Word Bearers were harassing the Ultramarines. And even then, numbers count for far less than normal in a siege, it's the walls, the guns and the tactics that make the difference. And of course, Terra's military should have been among the best in the galaxy, since they were there to protect the Emperor.

White Scar fluff states that the Kahn was engaging traitor legions across the whole planet, not just around the Emperor's palace, so the notion that the Emperor's Children were being ignored by the loyalists, and in turn were ignoring them ,is far-fetched. Besides, the fluff you're thinking of doesn't state that none of the Emperor's Children were participating in the Siege. The Death Guard are specifically mentioned in the 6E CSM codex to have participated in the Siege, as were the Alpha Legion and World Bearers.

I didn't say that they weren't fighting loyalists, I said that they went off to kill civilians. They might have engaged against loyalists they came across, but their contribution to the actual siege would have been negligible, since for the most part, they were completely insane. As for numbers, don't forget that the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard had just purged their ranks of loyalists in a three month battle which apparently inflicted 'significant losses' on them. The loyalists were outnumbered, but not as much as you seem to think, since hardly any of the traitor legions were at full strength.

The traitors lost because of circumstance. The siege of Terra wasn't meant to be a siege at all, it was meant to be an assassination, but because of the feth-up on Istvaan III, the loyalists had a chance to regroup. The fact that Perturabo managed to break the defences of the single most heavily defended planet in the Imperium in the little time he had is testament to his skill.

All war is circumstance. "Well they would have won if-if". There's going to always be an if.

If the Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels had been on Terra at the time of the siege, there's nothing Perturabo could have done.

Of course, but the fact is that he did breach the defences of the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium, in circumstances that were far less than ideal, which shows his skill in siegecraft.

After the Siege, the Iron Warriors created a trap the decimated the Imperial Fists and eventually, then started turning planets into massive fortresses. Not exactly running with their tails between their legs.

Non-sequitur. Nice try, though.

I don't see how an event that took place immediately following the battle of Terra is a non-sequitur.

 Durza wrote:
[ As for numbers, don't forget that the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Sons of Horus and Death Guard had just purged their ranks of loyalists in a three month battle which apparently inflicted 'significant losses' on them. The loyalists were outnumbered, but not as much as you seem to think, since hardly any of the traitor legions were at full strength.

In Galaxy in Flames I'm pretty sure it's said that the World Eaters had just over half of their Legion remaining aften Istvaan III. They were the worst hit, but that's a big blow to the traitors. Still, of the Loyalists only the Imperial Fists seem to have been unscathed - the Blood Angels and White Scars had both been in combat with the traitor Legions. Also, isn't it said somewhere that the Word Bearers put recruitment into overdrive? I'd assume that all the Legions would do the same.

You're making me choose between mr. pornostache prussian and the guy who's named after Crowley's pet demon?

You sirs are evil.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
You're making me choose between mr. pornostache prussian and the guy who's named after Crowley's pet demon?

You sirs are evil.

so, I have a question. was Dorn only known for his ability to hold fortresses and make defenses, or did he go on the offensive too? opposite with Perturabo?

They where both known for there skill in siege craft, let it be ad attackers or defenders.
But I get the feeling each had a preference. Dorn being the defender and the iron warriors the attackers.
But they where skilled in both from what i can read.

That is indeed the case.

Perturabo's Legion was also noted to be very competent in martial combat, fighting with a grim ferocity that could rival the berserking fury of the Blood Angels and World Eaters, according to Index Astartes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That is indeed the case.

Perturabo's Legion was also noted to be very competent in martial combat, fighting with a grim ferocity that could rival the berserking fury of the Blood Angels and World Eaters, according to Index Astartes.

That I didn't know.
You learn more everyday, aye ?

Perturabo. Becaus Dorn was an bumbling idiot who's pride cost him most his legion. While mister hazard stripes made the whole imperium look like a bunch of children hiding behind a wall of mud.

Perturabo and IW = attack and defence
Dorn and IF = only defence (Horus thought that they are the best)

So pick your favorite...

Dorn: Gee, it's a trap. But what a challenge! Guess my boys are going into a meat grinder prove how brilliant I am! Oops.

Loser.

 amanita wrote:
Dorn: Gee, it's a trap. But what a challenge! Guess my boys are going into a meat grinder prove how brilliant I am! Oops.

Loser.

A similar blunder can be attributed to Perturabo, whose entire fleet was nearly defeated by a handful of battered IF ships, stranded in a godforsaken system. So as far as I am concerned, they both have their moments of screw-ups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Perturabo and IW = attack and defence
Dorn and IF = only defence (Horus thought that they are the best)

So pick your favorite...

This part here about Dorn and his Fists being primarily defense focused, is actually a misinterpretation of their fluff. Due to the IF being mostly associated with defending Terra in HH books, many people forget, or overlook the IF legion’s other attributes.

For starters, they are just as good at sieging as they are at making fortifications (the Iron cage proves this.) Even more surprising is their skill in close combat, where formations of tight packed warriors equipped with shields advances towards the enemy lines. But whereas the Irion warriors charges with a berserker’s fury, the IF adhere to discipline over all things.

Trenches, artillery and chainswords. Two legions in a nutshell.

I thought Dorn used the Iron Cage as way to bring his legion into compliance and start adhereing to the 1000 battle brother limit. Some of his veterans were too stubborn so he had no choice but to knowingly send them to their death on a hopeless mission, Dorn knew that while of his marines would split into chapters like the Crimson Fist, other more veteran astartes were too stubborn to split up the legion. I find all the primarchs interesting in different way, Dorn seems to be more reserved than most of the primarchs, not as much as Vulkan or Kahn but still more reserved than Guillamen or Sanguinus.

amudkipz wrote:
I thought Dorn used the Iron Cage as way to bring his legion into compliance and start adhereing to the 1000 battle brother limit. Some of his veterans were too stubborn so he had no choice but to knowingly send them to their death on a hopeless mission, Dorn knew that while of his marines would split into chapters like the Crimson Fist, other more veteran astartes were too stubborn to split up the legion. I find all the primarchs interesting in different way, Dorn seems to be more reserved than most of the primarchs, not as much as Vulkan or Kahn but still more reserved than Guillamen or Sanguinus.

Never thought of the Iron cage like that before nice description! so the iron cage wasn't a pompous mistake?

The alternative is that Dorn is a traitorous scumbag to his own men.

Would you prefer a moment of hot-blooded incompetence, or pre-meditated treachery?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The alternative is that Dorn is a traitorous scumbag to his own men.

Would you prefer a moment of hot-blooded incompetence, or pre-meditated treachery?

It doesn't matter. Dorn was an arrogant fool who thought his defenses were invincible. His Imperial Fists are the same. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are the opposite. They knows all fortresses fall, sooner or later, and so prepare accordingly. They are superior. The Emperor should have chosen Perturabo and the Iron Warriors to rebuild the Imperial Palace. If he had, it would never have been overrun in the first place.

They knows all fortresses fall, sooner or later

The Emperor should have chosen Perturabo and the Iron Warriors to rebuild the Imperial Palace. If he had, it would never have been overrun in the first place

It fills my dark and corrupted heart with no small amount of joy, when people contradict themselves on the internet.

It's Tadashi though, so it's not as sweet. More, expected.

- - - -

I'm curious to know where this "OMG PERTURABO MASTER OF DEFENSES" idea has come from. Provide sources, please. I've never seen nor neard anything that would suggest that Perutrabo is better at defending than, say, Dorn would be at attacking.

 Redcruisair wrote:

They knows all fortresses fall, sooner or later

The Emperor should have chosen Perturabo and the Iron Warriors to rebuild the Imperial Palace. If he had, it would never have been overrun in the first place

It fills my dark and corrupted heart with no small amount of joy, when people contradict themselves on the internet.

Perturabo would just blow the outer palace once its overrun, sealing the inner palace off beneath Mount Everest.