Hey guys

I know they just wrapped up FoB but I haven't seen any threads about it here. Anyone know the results, what lists were played etc?

Alex B. won the invitational with chaos daemons.

The top bracket was dominated by daemons who took full advantage of their codex update in WD. In fact Chaos Daemons were on the top table 6 out of 7 games.

Someone who was there explained to me that the demons were allowed to play using the FAQ'd demon rules, 40k demon rules, and codex demon rules... which amounted to flamers having a 4+ invuln 2 wound and auto wound/glance on a 4+ with flamer? I'm not too familiar with deamons so curious why the standings panned out the way they did

Your correct on everything but the invuln. It is, and was played at FoB, as a 5+.

I wasn't there, although I wanted to be, so I'm just speaking generally. But Daemons have a lot of things going for them.

They were always efficient infantry killers. And as people de-mech daemons just rise that much in the meta. Then people haven't practiced against daemons because they've been down in the dumps for so long, so they take a lot of people by surprise. People can't full reserve against them anymore which is a huge boon. And then the screamers/flamers from the white dwarf update are extremely powerful.

IMO the meta is still in an extreme state of flux where people don't know what to practice against or bring. And I think daemons benefit a lot in that environment.

And without knowing exactly what they ruled I can't really comment on the multiple sources of rules, other than to say I think they did it right. Because of odd wording in the FAQs you do need to go to all of those places to get the complete set of rules for a daemon army.

I am not really surprised about the Daemon presence, the WD update really put them into the competitive bracket in a major way. I'm not one to cry broken, but my guess is this will not continue past the next codex release.

This is meta changing army now though, in major tournaments: if you cannot deal with a flamer/screamer heavy Daemon list you may want to either reconsider your build, or participating in the tournament.

The biggest killer was screamers. The ability to deepstrike in then turboboost 24" over a target to hit it and gain 4+ cover crushed most things. They could then move 24" back toward their target to assault with a pile of attacks at s5 ap2 to finish the job.

I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

Didn't see any FAQ on their page to let Updated daemons have an invul save. Did the TO call it there?
Screamers sv-
Flamers sv-

I suppose I am just fuzzy on the rules then!

Is there some debate/argument as to what stats screamers/flamers have etc?


The picture I sort of drew from what I was told was, that the demons had favorable odds due to the way the rules were being interpreted at FOB

But I don't really know.. That's why I have to ask about the existence of a debate regarding the rules for flamers/screamers etc?



So don't take this message negatively, I'm just trying to understand why the demons placed so well in droves over all competition. I understand the de-mechanization, and how that helps demons. Also with a lull in their presence competitively it could lend itself to people "forgetting" (even if temporarily) how to deal with these units?


I have only got to play against demons before their WD update, so my knowledge on the subject is rather limited.


Hopefully one of you smarty-gits can educate me!

Didn't see any FAQ on their page to let Updated daemons have an invul save. Did the TO call it there?
Screamers sv-
Flamers sv-

They have the Daemon special rule, which is in the rule book and gives them a 5++ and Fear

 winterman wrote:

Didn't see any FAQ on their page to let Updated daemons have an invul save. Did the TO call it there?
Screamers sv-
Flamers sv-

They have the Daemon special rule, which is in the rule book and gives them a 5++ and Fear

Yea not really though.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/485552.page

that's why I'm wondering if the TO said they did, looking for something to give precedence at our local shop

The Daemon rule in the main rulebook grants Flamers and Screamers the 5+ invul save. Their Codex Updates are to be considered as part of the Daemons Codex, which grants them the Eternal Warrior rule. These are not in conflict, that is they do not say different things are to be granted to Daemons, therefore they are to be used together. Supposedly next year Daemons will get a new Codex which will clump it all together, probably nerf both units somehow, and then everyone who got slaughtered by Daemons can breathe a sigh of relief.

I don't what that Comms thing is, but I'm gonna check it out. I need to get some more Screamers!

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

Gratz on the win!

For the rest of you would be tournament goers, that is the list to beat (give or take a daemon or two).

It pretty much hoses any army that is forced to pay points for an armor save, or depends on vehicles for durability. It is also very rough on hordes because of the templates, turbo boosted flybys, and hammer of wrath.

Whigwam, I'm curious did you play vs a cron air force? Did it give you, or other daemon players any trouble?

Actually, what list did you play against that caused you the most problems?

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Daemon rule in the main rulebook grants Flamers and Screamers the 5+ invul save. Their Codex Updates are to be considered as part of the Daemons Codex, which grants them the Eternal Warrior rule. These are not in conflict, that is they do not say different things are to be granted to Daemons, therefore they are to be used together. Supposedly next year Daemons will get a new Codex which will clump it all together, probably nerf both units somehow, and then everyone who got slaughtered by Daemons can breathe a sigh of relief.

I don't what that Comms thing is, but I'm gonna check it out. I need to get some more Screamers!

Thank you for clearing that up


Comms relay is 20 point upgrade for aegis defense line that allows you to re roll reserve rolls.


Im also curious what gave you a run for your money.

This is why I believe that Strike Squads will be making a comeback in the near future..

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Daemon rule in the main rulebook grants Flamers and Screamers the 5+ invul save. Their Codex Updates are to be considered as part of the Daemons Codex, which grants them the Eternal Warrior rule. These are not in conflict, that is they do not say different things are to be granted to Daemons, therefore they are to be used together. Supposedly next year Daemons will get a new Codex which will clump it all together, probably nerf both units somehow, and then everyone who got slaughtered by Daemons can breathe a sigh of relief.

I don't what that Comms thing is, but I'm gonna check it out. I need to get some more Screamers!

That doesn't sum it up unfortunately. pg 32 BGB "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

Liquidice281 wrote:
This is why I believe that Strike Squads will be making a comeback in the near future..

Because of warpquake?

It would help in the begining if they mishap into the quake and prevent some serious flamer templates through area denial, but they are good as dead once they have boots on the ground.

 Ghostcat wrote:

Liquidice281 wrote:
This is why I believe that Strike Squads will be making a comeback in the near future..

Because of warpquake?

It would help in the begining if they mishap into the quake and prevent some serious flamer templates through area denial, but they are good as dead once they have boots on the ground.

It'll help vs the flamers but not so much against the screamers.

DS
Turbo-Boost
Still gonna get ya get ya ^^

I agree with ya,

I predict that these rules will only be an issue until January or so, when the new Daemon books come out. I am willing to bet they lose EW and Fearless, as the BRB defines Daemons as not having either, and the CSM Daemon units didn't have those rules, either.

Flamers went way down in points and are now stupidly good for what you pay.

Daemons won Brawl in the Fall and took a second high placing as well, and they also won a 40 person GT in Ireland recently as well. All of them heavily featured Tzeentch Daemons.

I like that Daemons are better, but Flamers and Screamers are a bit too much in the current rules. Now that you can't fully reserve and with most folks not taking Mech, it is brutal if you deploy poorly. Flamers are damn near impossible to assault, too, for many armies.

My question though, is how did these armies do against an Air Force list? I think that would be a very difficult match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and a big congratz to the winner! Well played!

I was in attendance at the event and played the eventual runner up round 1. At the end all that he had left were 2 plaguebearers, and he said himself that he had no choice but to ignore the flyers. I was using Crons/Orks with the following list:

Overlord

3 Stormteks

12 Warriors
-Night scythe
7 Warriors
-Night scythe
9 Gauss immortals
-Night scythe

2x5 Wraiths

3 Annihilation barges

Big Mek

15 Lootas

30 Shoota boyz w/ 3 big shootas

When making the list I knew that it had to be geared to beat daemons because of how many people have picked them up since the update. In order to win vs you need to be able to reliably knock fateweaver out of the air and reliably cause large amounts of wounds on T4 models. As was mentioned above its almost too much for a lot of armies to get sweep attacked and then immediately assaulted the next turn by one of the premier assault units in the game with usually only one turn of shooting.

So to answer your question Reece, cron flyers seem to work pretty well vs daemons because you can hit fateweaver early and also get your troops where they need to be late in the game rather than have them bottled up in your deployment zone dying from turn 1.

I also just wanted to say that Feast was a great event and well worth the 14 hour drive from Phoenix. Everyone that came up had an amazing time in all the events that were put on. Looking forward to next year.

Thanks for your insights!

That sounds about how I would expect that showdown to go.

You said it though, your typical list is going to get smashed over the head by Tzeentch Daemons this edition. I played them at Brawl in the Fall with a decent IG/Blood Angels list and while I did have pretty crappy dice, the only thing that even made it a game was the fact that 2 of the 3 Flamer units misshaped coming in, one dying the other going to a far corner of the board. Had that not happened, my run of the mill force would have been murdified!

That Ork/Cron tag team is doing extremely well these days, and I think your instincts were right on the money with them being able to take Daemons (and it shows too, as you did so well against them).

I think the other really good counter to the Daemons is DE. They could care less about an invul save and they pour so many wounds on with Poison weapons that they can chew through those Daemon units rapidly. Combo that with Eldar allies, and they stand very good odds.

This was my first out of state tournament, and it was definitely a winner. I won't say anything about the numerous demons lists, as that is being talked to death all over the internet. My overall impression of the event as a whole was pretty good. The hotel was nice, the events were reasonably priced, and the competition was definitely up to snuff. I have only two criticisms of the event, both gaming related. The first is the Qual by Fire event Friday Night, which was the last chance you had to qualify for the Invitational. The pairings were random, which I think was a bit of a mistake. I played my second round against a guy who had considerably less Battle Points than I did, and my third round I played someone who had drawn their first game and lost their second game, while I had nearly maxed both games. Other than that, it was pretty fun, the 1.5 hour rounds kept everyone moving quickly.

The second was the missions for the Invitational. I was one of only two pure Dark Eldar players at the event, and we both got hammered pretty badly day 1. The reason was, though we did very well from a gaming standpoint, 6/7 missions for the event had Killpoints involved. And in each mission, it was worth half of the available points. I know that in 2 of the KP missions on the first day, I got a minor win on the other objective, but it was like losing because the other guy usually scored max points on the Killpoint mission. And on day two, Table Quarters and Objectives were almost invariably drawn, so results more often than not came down to who had more KPs. This is all from what I saw in my own games, and games around me, but i imagine that it was mirrored all over the event.

Outside of those two hiccups, the event was very good. The 40k events stayed more or less on schedule. The food at the hotel was very good, and they had quick, cheap food and meal options for those playing games. The Saturday night 40k team trivia was a lot of fun, and had everyone laughing at some of the goofy answers people gave. There was plenty of time allowed for sleep, and outside of a fire alarm hiccup on Sunday morning, everyone seemed well-rested. Overall, it was a great event, and I will make an effort to go next year.

you left out Colorado is the best state ever

My history with Daemons is interesting. I originally picked them up in 5th because I loved the models. I remember one day walking
into a game store and seeing a guy fielding the Forge World Greater Daemons. I thought "wow', those are so killer". So, my
path was set. I amased a huge Daemon army, and played a lot of games of 5th without really knowing what I was doing. Eventually,
I found Fatecrusher in 5th, and began dominating. I would routinely table such power builds like Draigo Wing, Leaf Blower, and
Purifier Spam with it.

When 6th rolled around and Bloodcrushers were nerfed, I began toying with other builds. When the new White Dwarf update came out,
I quickly was able to develop lists around Screamers & Flamers. In the next few weeks, I saw the Nova Results where Nick took 2nd with
an almost identicle list to what I was using. I thought "hey, that's cool. I developed an original net list".

These tournament results are dissapointing. It shows a trend in 40K that I think is really negative. I would speculate that most of the Daemon
players at Feast are "band wagon" players. Meaning they purchased a daemon army not because they love the models, but because it is
really good in the game. A Ben Franklin says 90% of them will sell their daemon armies after they are updated and the unit power structure changes.

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

First of all, congrats to Whigwham for a job well done. That is a very extreme list that probably 95% of the people out there would have problems against.


However, as good as it is, it is still a hammer list. A big hammer, but nonetheless, it can be overcome by a paper list and some tactical play. And no, cronair isn't a solution. This list IMO has the resiliency to survive a full-on necron airforce list. Worse yet, it has the potential to table Cronair on Turn 1 if the necron player does not deploy enough units on the ground. What you need to beat it is a large amount of firepower and an equally resilient army on the board. The Green Tide orks backed by lootas and/or dakkajets, grey knight Coteaz-striker-spam, hybrid wraithing-tesla necrons, shooty-MSU builds and even psychic-heavy tyranids are some of the armies that can give daemons a problem.

But for now, people are going to have to figure out how to deal with both Tzeentch daemons and necron flyer/hybrid-flyer lists in the tournaments to come.

I find that Daemon don’t make any sense at the best of times. Now they’re benefiting from ADL Comms? That’s just absurd...

Model the comms relay as an altar and the problem is fixed.

'Counts As' doesn't fix the underlying absurdity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Counts As' doesn't fix the underlying absurdity.

Why is it other armies can reap the benefits of Comms but daemons can't? Just call it a Warp Beacon or something like that.

 jy2 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Counts As' doesn't fix the underlying absurdity.

Why is it other armies can reap the benefits of Comms but daemons can't? Just call it a Warp Beacon or something like that.

Obviously because it's just absurd...

We all know, anyone can use any except Nids.
Apparently they don't have opposable thumbs so cannot shoot guns ...

As for anyone and everyone else all is good

Watching the top gaming table from the Narrative side, after round 2 only deamon armies fought for the top spot. All had the flamer/screamer/plaguebearer list with the comms relay. The only variety was if some brought in a MC.

 jy2 wrote:

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

First of all, congrats to Whigwham for a job well done. That is a very extreme list that probably 95% of the people out there would have problems against.


However, as good as it is, it is still a hammer list. A big hammer, but nonetheless, it can be overcome by a paper list and some tactical play. And no, cronair isn't a solution. This list IMO has the resiliency to survive a full-on necron airforce list. Worse yet, it has the potential to table Cronair on Turn 1 if the necron player does not deploy enough units on the ground. What you need to beat it is a large amount of firepower and an equally resilient army on the board. The Green Tide orks backed by lootas and/or dakkajets, grey knight Coteaz-striker-spam, hybrid wraithing-tesla necrons, shooty-MSU builds and even psychic-heavy tyranids are some of the armies that can give daemons a problem.

But for now, people are going to have to figure out how to deal with both Tzeentch daemons and necron flyer/hybrid-flyer lists in the tournaments to come.

I would have to disagree with you Jy2. I would LOVE to play against green tide orks with my daemons, and the other lists really aren't as much of a threat as you suggest.
Coteaz striker spam doesn't have the fire power to stop it, even with the extra 12" warp quake gives you.

Daemons should be extremely nasty, and they were devastating in 5th despite what a lot of the Internet psycho babble would have you believe. What I don't like are all the bandwagon players jumping on the army because it has had
some success. It really turns me off from the recent tournaments, and I myself am a very competitive player.

As an attendee I would like to start out by saying thank you to Chandler and the entire crew. Then tournament was run smooth and mostly on schedule (mostly due to Chandler pulling the fire alarm at 6am to get everyone up), and aside from a few raised eyebrows the judges calls were fair to all players. All in all it was a great tournament and an exhausting weekend playing 10 games in 48 hour period three being from the Friday night qual.

I do want to point out for those that did not attend why there were so many Daemon players in the top bracket. The Invitational tournament was split by battle points day one to determine your bracket and win loss day two. Meaning in order to make it to top seed bracket you essentially had to table your opponent as there was a major difference in points between a minor win and a crushing victory. This obviously plays to Daemons strategy of crush and destroy quite well. High endurance infantry armies, which I was playing myself had a huge presence at this tournament and seemed to really excel at win lose. However, couldn't seem to match the amount of battle points produced out of sheer killy armies. Long story short if your going to play in a battle point style tournament and your all about winning over having fun then bring a army to table your opponent. Personally I had a blast playing what I did and am fine with winning a bracket ace over the entire thing and really can't wait for next years feast this event gets bigger and better each year.

On a side note I want to give a shout out to Frankie and all the guys over at Frontline Gaming. They saved me many sleepless nights by painting half my army in under two weeks before the tournament. They did a great job on matching colors and I would highly recommend them should you need work done fast.

Wall of text incoming...

Ghostcat wrote:Gratz on the win!

Reecius wrote:Oh, and a big congratz to the winner! Well played!

jy2 wrote:congrats to Whigwham for a job well done

Thank you all very much! Reecius and jy2, it's funny you both should comment as I owe you both a debt of gratitude. I've had extremely limited time to play 6th Edition, probably less than 25 games including my games at FoB, and your battle reports were both extremely helpful while I was preparing for the event. I don't think I would've been prepared for half of what I saw otherwise. So, a very sincere thanks to you both.

Ghostcat wrote:Whigwam, I'm curious did you play vs a cron air force? Did it give you, or other daemon players any trouble?

Reecius wrote:My question though, is how did these armies do against an Air Force list? I think that would be a very difficult match.

From what I observed, Cron Air didn't really show up to FoB. There were Flyers to be sure, but it seemed like most people were taking between 1-3, or none. Night Scythes, Heldrakes, Dakkajets, Vendettas, and Stormravens all had a presence. But full-on Flyer-spam was pretty much absent. In the Invitational, I saw only one player with massed Night Scythes, but I don't believe he was ranked very highly (guessing 6th or 7th bracket from the table he was playing at). Part of that can be attributed to the scenarios, as several missions used table quarters (controlled by most VPs, excluding Flyers--even if they were hovering), but I think it's also the case that Flyers have been over-hyped. At the beginning of 6th, so many people were -scared of 9 Scythes whizzing around the table, but I think it's proven to be a rather clumsy build. I play Necrons myself, and I've even played Flyer-heavy lists myself (that is..against myself, in preparation for this event) and from that perspective, I consider Daemons one of our most problematic matchups. Like jy2 said, Cron Air's limited ground presence is a liability, especially with Daemons alpha strike potential. I wouldn't expect to turn 1 table many players that way, especially more balanced Flyer builds with a stronger ground presence (say less Scythes, more Wraiths). But even if they survive the first turn, those Wraiths, Warriors, Barges, etc. will be hit hard before the Flyers arrive. And then I'm on their side of the table, crowding their Flyers potential landing spots, engaging their units, and making it extremely difficult effectively concentrate fire on any particular unit of mine. When I have scoring/denial units coming out my ears, and Necrons already meek damage output is gimped by a strong alpha strike, it doesn't matter a jot that I can't touch their Flyers. I can avoid them and counter whatever moves they pull, because Flyers are clumsy and Daemons are nimble (and when they're unable to be nimble, they're resilient). Cron Air was the matchup I probably prepared for the most, so it's funny that I didn't wind up facing it at all. I would've liked to though. My list was written to directly counter Necrons and I wish I'd had an opportunity to put that to the test (you know, besides beating up on myself).

That said, I think some Daemon builds will have issues with Necrons. FMC's are probably the biggest liability in that matchup, as Scythes can make quick work of even Fateweaver. Take more than two FMC's, and I think that matchup becomes extremely unfavorable for Daemons. Many people think the opposite, since FMC's are Daemons only serious chance at destroying Flyers, but I think that that's just playing the game Flyers want you to play. And they are better at it than we are. 333 points of Fateweaver is going to get schooled by 300 points of Night Scythes nearly every time. LoC's, Bloodthirsters, DP's are all outmatched as well. From my experience with Necrons, I've always regarded Monstrous Creatures with 3+ saves as Tesla bait. So my perspective is, if you want to beat Flyers, why give them something easy to kill? My army had 146 wounds total, all hard targets, and all the Tesla Destructors in the world can't wipe that away in 5 turns. Their ground presence might help, but it probably won't since I'll either be hiding from or ignoring the Flyers while working to wipe out everything else.

Ghostcat wrote:Actually, what list did you play against that caused you the most problems?

Tyranids, Daemons, and a Jetseer/DE army. Tyranids really caught me flatfooted with their newfound psychic abilities. I had a unit of Screamers Paroxysm'd, Enfeebled, Terrified, then assaulted by a unit of Gargoyles hitting on 3's, wounding on rerollable 4's. Absolutely brutal. At least the Changling scared my opponent out of shooting with them first. Tervigons were able to spawn plenty of Flamer-bait, throwing Gants into the Wall of Death to clear the way for Trygons or Flyrants. Screamers helped a lot to keep me in this matchup (one squad killing a Tervigon and Trygon one turn after another), but ultimately I was saved by the bell. We were engaged in combat from turn 2 onward (those Gargoyles I mentioned), and with hundreds of models on the table the game dragged on and on. We only completed 4 turns, and I was looking at 2 unscathed Flyrants, 2 Trygons, and a 10-wound Doom of Malantai when the game ended. It could've still gone either way, but I think my opponent had the advantage going into the next turn. I only won because the mission weighted kill points heaviest, and I'd racked up plenty killing Gants and other easy KPs.

My last game of both days were Daemons. Both builds similar to mine, one with a LoC and Fiends instead of Flamers, and Gareth's list which I posted above. These matchups were just surreal for the most part. A lot hung on who deployed first, preferred waves, and the luck of the scatter. In my first day matchup against Daemons (against Rich Johnson, at that point ranked 1st by a wide margin) we traded Screamers for Screamers, Flamers for Flamers, then had Screamers assaulting Flamers, Flamers assaulting Screamers, and tons of messy multi-assaults all over the board. For most of the game he had the upper hand, but we ended in a draw, both clinging onto some objectives while contesting others. My opponent made a huge mistake in forgetting to deploy a unit of Fiends. Fiends are devastating in the mirror match, so that alone likely saved my ass. We both wound up with 30/100 pts, which dragged my point total enough that I ended up seeding 8th. Very close call, and I have to say it leaves a sour taste in my mouth that an opponent's mistake contributed so much to keeping me in contention.

Eldar/DE was also tough for all of the reasons Reece already explained. Both excel in massed anti-infantry, and Doom/Guide combined with all the nasty Psychic powers 6th has introduced give Eldar all they need to manage Daemons. The Fortune/Shadowfield trick isn't too hard of a nut for Daemons to crack (with their ability to target a unit precisely where they want to), but the Jetseer council (with a Fortuned Baron Sathonyx) complicated things. Harlie-star is a lot more manageable for me, simply because it's slow and relatively avoidable. But the reach of the Jetseers was not as avoidable. I killed one of the unit's two Farseers (I thought it was the Fortuneseer...until my opponent informed me, no, that was the other one) and 4-5 Warlocks on my first turn, but after they started engaging my units, Hit and Running, bouncing from unit to unit, soaking wounds on Baron, I couldn't lay a finger on them. Luckily the same was true for them as the Jetseer unit's damage output is pretty mild. But they sure won't die. Probably the best denial unit in the game if you're willing to pay for it.

Firstborn wrote:These tournament results are dissapointing. It shows a trend in 40K that I think is really negative. I would speculate that most of the Daemon
players at Feast are "band wagon" players. Meaning they purchased a daemon army not because they love the models, but because it is
really good in the game. A Ben Franklin says 90% of them will sell their daemon armies after they are updated and the unit power structure changes.

I don't think this was the case at all. I had occasion to get a pretty close look at nearly every Daemon army at the invitational, and every one I saw was beautifully painted. I saw numerous classic models, brilliant conversions, and inventive counts-as. The Daemon player I faced on the first day had an army made entirely of lead--if you want a dedicated Daemon player, there he is. Another good example would be Kenny Boucher's Daemons. Take a look at the 4th and 5th photos here---I wish I could find more shots of his army because it's easily one of the best looking I've ever seen. I very much doubt you'll find them in your local used mini's bin when Daemons are inevitably brought back down to earth.

I started playing 5th with Daemons, just because I happened upon a picture of a Bloodcrusher and thought it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. I own nearly 4000 points of Daemons now, mostly because I still think they're the coolest thing ever. And I think there are a lot of Daemons players like that, more than people realize. I played in many tournaments in 5th Edition, when Daemons were arguably very weak, and I was always surprised at the amount of Daemons players I encountered. They invariably had lovingly converted and painted armies and didn't care if they weren't the most competitive list on the block. They just liked Daemons. Now that Daemons are actually powerful, I don't think anyone can blame those same players for embracing it. Of course there will be some bandwagoners, but I think you're being overly suspicious--I didn't see any at FoB.

Firstborn wrote:
I would have to disagree with you Jy2. I would LOVE to play against green tide orks with my daemons, and the other lists really aren't as much of a threat as you suggest.
Coteaz striker spam doesn't have the fire power to stop it, even with the extra 12" warp quake gives you.

Daemons should be extremely nasty, and they were devastating in 5th despite what a lot of the Internet psycho babble would have you believe. What I don't like are all the bandwagon players jumping on the army because it has had
some success. It really turns me off from the recent tournaments, and I myself am a very competitive player.

Oh, I guarantee you that 180 shoota boyz backed with 45 lootas will definitely give daemons a good fight.

And 60 strikers all with psycannons and S5 stormbolters, when combined with Warp Quake, Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You and army-wide Prefered Enemy (not to mention 2-3 dreadknights w/heavy incinerators at 2K), is definitely a paper to the daemon's rock. This may arguably be the toughest build for daemons to play against.

And then there's the hybrid wraithwing/tesla crons that I run - 2 D-lords, 18 wraiths, 4x5 warriors in night scythes and 3 annihilation barges. Wraiths really don't care about screamers, teslas will be focused on flamers and then if I have to, split off the D-lord from the wraiths just before charging the flamers. D-lord eats the Overwatch because he will get back up on a 4+ thanks to his ResOrb so that wraiths can safely charge in. While I haven't played against a 27+27 flamer/screamer list, I have gone up against 2200pts of daemons (with 44 flamers, Fateweaver and a daemon flying circus) with my 2K of necrons.

The updated daemons are without a doubt a very strong, tier-1 tournament army now. However, 6E is all about matchups. Whether it be flamer/screamer daemons, Cronair, wraithwing crons, grey knight striker-spam, green tide orks, deathstar armies, MSU or whatever, every army IMO has a weakness that can be exploited by another. The trick is to be able to anticipate what will be predominant in the local meta. Already we are seeing a shift from flyer-heavy armies now to infantry-heavy armies as a form of anti-flyer-meta. And as another poster brought up before, this shift is a boon to the new daemons, who traditionally does well against infantry-heavy armies. Take advantage of that now, for in a few months, you will see another shift in the competitive meta.

Had a lot of good games and had a lot of fun.

I played one demon player and beat him (I played GK/Eldar) so I had the tools to do it. Demons are really new and just like all of the new power builds it takes a little while to learn how to deal with them. BrianPHX has a lot of practice playing against demons and practically tabled the guy who came in #2.

Acherin wrote:


I do want to point out for those that did not attend why there were so many Daemon players in the top bracket. The Invitational tournament was split by battle points day one to determine your bracket and win loss day two. Meaning in order to make it to top seed bracket you essentially had to table your opponent as there was a major difference in points between a minor win and a crushing victory. This obviously plays to Daemons strategy of crush and destroy quite well. High endurance infantry armies, which I was playing myself had a huge presence at this tournament and seemed to really excel at win lose. However, couldn't seem to match the amount of battle points produced out of sheer killy armies. Long story short if your going to play in a battle point style tournament and your all about winning over having fun then bring a army to table your opponent. Personally I had a blast playing what I did and am fine with winning a bracket ace over the entire thing and really can't wait for next years feast this event gets bigger and better each year.

This is 100% right. As seen above the guy that BrianPHX nearly tabled came in 2nd. The reason why was that the scoring system highly favored tabling. I knew guys who lost their first game jump ahead of me (with 2 wins) in battle points because they tabled their opponent in round #2.

Demons can table so they scored a ton of points while Necron flyers are not a tabling army so the demons never had to really deal with them.

I hereby decree this tournament be known by "Feast of Tzeentch"

Whigwam, thank you for answering my questions about your list and tournament win!

I'm going to have to learn how to get that army with Coteaz, some well placed stikers, and shedloads of fire power. I think it's a possiblie all comers list that may handle daemons.

I think the real question about the list is if the WD update Daemons retain eternal warrior. I think RAW is muddy but I don't think anyone is wrong for allowing it. RAI will be clear with a faq or the new dex. While everything this army does is nasty, it's really the 2 wounds, 5++, and EW that make this thing crazy durable. That durability makes it nearly impossible to wipe a squad of screamers/flamers off the table and what's left can usually still do crazy damage to a vehiclesor infantry.

No problem! I agree that Coteaz/Strikers will be a good counter for Daemons. Stormbolters (Psybolt or not), Psycannons, and Divination powers (especially Forewarning and Prescience) can put a hurting on Daemons. Then of course there's Warpquake, the cherry on top. DK's aren't all that they used to be against Daemons (as Dark Excommunication does almost nothing against Flamers/Screamers) but their Incinerators will still hurt a lot. Especially since they ignore Screamers' Jink save.

Army-wide Eternal Warrior is something that I think every Daemon player knows won't last. Fearless is also doubtful. My suspicion is that the new Daemon codex will include Flamers/Screamers with the same points/statlines they have now, except without EW, without Fearless, and maybe a LD reduction to boot. For now, the WD Daemons are benefit from the best of both worlds and are criminally undercosted as a result. We pay for it in part with overcosted troops, but the point efficiency of the WD units more than makes up for that.

Of course, powerful, undercosted units are all over the place in this game. Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Vendettas, Psybolt Strikes, Coteaz/Henchmen, Night Scythes, Guard Blobs, etc., have been the backbone of many competitive lists for the same reason Flamers/Screamers have. They do too much for too little. People can cry OP, broken, undercosted all they like, but competitive 40k revolves around the OP, broken, and undercosted. As many have said, Daemons will probably only benefit from this for the next couple months, then we'll get a new Codex, new builds, and all of this will be a blip on the radar.

 Ghostcat wrote:
Whigwam, thank you for answering my questions about your list and tournament win!

I'm going to have to learn how to get that army with Coteaz, some well placed stikers, and shedloads of fire power. I think it's a possiblie all comers list that may handle daemons.

I think the real question about the list is if the WD update Daemons retain eternal warrior. I think RAW is muddy but I don't think anyone is wrong for allowing it. RAI will be clear with a faq or the new dex. While everything this army does is nasty, it's really the 2 wounds, 5++, and EW that make this thing crazy durable. That durability makes it nearly impossible to wipe a squad of screamers/flamers off the table and what's left can usually still do crazy damage to a vehiclesor infantry.

The best way to kill them is through torrent of fire.

Let's say you fire a unit of 10 strikers with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammo.

8 psycannon shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wound x 2/3 fail save + 16 stormbolters x 2/3 hit x 2/3 wound x 2/3 fail saves = ~8 wounds against flamers and screamers

But it will actually be more like 9-10W when you take into effect Prefered Enemy. Now imagine firing with 6 squads of those knights, 1 of which is re-rolling to hit thanks to Prescience from Coteaz.

If the knights go 1st, cast all psychic powers and wait. Flamers will drop a few knights with their shooting, but they also run the risk of scattering within Warp Quake/I've Been Expecting You range if they try to land within shooting range of the knights.

If knights are going 2nd, setup 1 unit (and perhaps the dreadknights) as a screening unit. You're just going to have to make that sacrifice but at least you've got I've Been Expecting You for some limited protection. Every flamer unit that wants to deepstrike aggressively will be taking a risk of getting shot as well.


The Coteaz-striker list goes something like this (at 2K) and is a legitimate Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list:

Coteaz
6x10 Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo (and if you have extra points, get a few hammers though not on the Justicar).
2x Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
1860

You have 140pts for whatever.


Of course, this is not taking into consideration skill. A skilled daemon player can still beat a grey knights striker list, though if both players are relatively equal in skill, IMO the knights would have the advantage in such a matchup.

Big props to the organizers and staff, I had a blast.

 whigwam wrote:
Wall of text incoming...


My last game of both days were Daemons. Both builds similar to mine, one with a LoC and Fiends instead of Flamers, and Gareth's list which I posted above. These matchups were just surreal for the most part. A lot hung on who deployed first, preferred waves, and the luck of the scatter. In my first day matchup against Daemons (against Rich Johnson, at that point ranked 1st by a wide margin) we traded Screamers for Screamers, Flamers for Flamers, then had Screamers assaulting Flamers, Flamers assaulting Screamers, and tons of messy multi-assaults all over the board. For most of the game he had the upper hand, but we ended in a draw, both clinging onto some objectives while contesting others. My opponent made a huge mistake in forgetting to deploy a unit of Fiends. Fiends are devastating in the mirror match, so that alone likely saved my ass. We both wound up with 30/100 pts, which dragged my point total enough that I ended up seeding 8th. Very close call, and I have to say it leaves a sour taste in my mouth that an opponent's mistake contributed so much to keeping me in contention.

My only defense for forgetting the fiends was that I was on game #7 in less than 24 hours. Combine that with having to sit in that tiny room with nobody else but a judge and my opponent for something like 8 hours and having to do the pre-game, post-game stuff it was a long day.

That's definitely understandable. I have no excuse for forgetting my Hammer of Wrath attacks in nearly every game of the day. Thanks for beating it into my head before my last game...I actually remembered to use them for all but 1 or 2 charges!

It was really nice meeting you, Rich. Definitely one of my most enjoyable opponents, even if playing the mirror match is as awkward as kissing cousins. I hope we cross paths again some day, but I could probably do without a rematch.

Ugh don't remind me, remembering HoW is like a perpetual curse. Mostly it's my opponent who goes "don't you get HoW?"

 jy2 wrote:


The Coteaz-striker list goes something like this (at 2K) and is a legitimate Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list:

Coteaz
6x10 Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo (and if you have extra points, get a few hammers though not on the Justicar).
2x Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
1860

You have 140pts for whatever.

Again, boots on the ground. Warpquake only puts off flamers for a turn, screamers will hurt your strikes without transports. Once you do not kill all of the flamers, your PAGK are expensive toast.

Don't forget interceptors too, if you want to go this route.

Warpquake is essential to GK beating this list, but it's about combat squadding smaller numbers of strikes/ceptors, positioning them well, and using coteaz's troops unlock for more cheap scoring bodies. Henchmen and GK die the exact same to flamers and screamers, but one is a hell of a lot cheaper to field.

I understand the idea, but warpquake spam will not beat that daemon list outside of a horrible string of luck with deep strike mishaps and i've been expecting you. I woudln't hold my breath for that in a tournament though.

Also, this should be about the event, so I'm going to pull out of this thread and stop disscussing anti-Tzeentch daemon list tactics.

It's just very telling between NOVA and this that the daemons are the new beatstick.

I heard that there was a Necron Airforce with 10 flyers. How did he manage that? Don't you have to have half your stuff on the board?

Sounds like a fun event. Sorry I didn't make but another flight this year would make my wife want to strangle me.

@Ghostcat

I disagree. A solid strike list with sufficient psychic support and DK's would make this army cry. It would probably be a fight if the daemon player went first and got his preferred wave but outside of that it's an uphill battle. I say this as someone who plays both all foot Strike GK and Daemons.

Though in an environment where all units weren't scoring I'd be unlikely to run into a deamon at the top tables outside of someone like Yermom from Nova who's a dirty genius with his daemons and has been for years.

Even without going first, GK can still move and still shoot the heck out of demons. With divination powers they can concentrate fire and still keep out of range of some of the demon units, even though the killy units are super fast. All you have to do is move so you are 18" away from some of the demons while shooting the other units that are closer. 18" is the safe zone because flamers are a lot less of a threat at that range, or be in terrain for screamers and they will have trouble assaulting you.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Even without going first, GK can still move and still shoot the heck out of demons. With divination powers they can concentrat fire and still keep out of range of some of the demon units, even though the killy units are super fast. All you have to do is just stay 18" away from flamers for example for them to be less of a threat.,

Basically all you're saying is they're both good armies and what it basically comes down to is generalship.

 Ghostcat wrote:

 jy2 wrote:


The Coteaz-striker list goes something like this (at 2K) and is a legitimate Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list:

Coteaz
6x10 Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo (and if you have extra points, get a few hammers though not on the Justicar).
2x Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
1860

You have 140pts for whatever.

Again, boots on the ground. Warpquake only puts off flamers for a turn, screamers will hurt your strikes without transports. Once you do not kill all of the flamers, your PAGK are expensive toast.

Don't forget interceptors too, if you want to go this route.

Warpquake is essential to GK beating this list, but it's about combat squadding smaller numbers of strikes/ceptors, positioning them well, and using coteaz's troops unlock for more cheap scoring bodies. Henchmen and GK die the exact same to flamers and screamers, but one is a hell of a lot cheaper to field.

I understand the idea, but warpquake spam will not beat that daemon list outside of a horrible string of luck with deep strike mishaps and i've been expecting you. I woudln't hold my breath for that in a tournament though.

Also, this should be about the event, so I'm going to pull out of this thread and stop disscussing anti-Tzeentch daemon list tactics.

It's just very telling between NOVA and this that the daemons are the new beatstick.

And 1 turn is all you need to deliver a crippling turn of shooting by the GK's. Daemons can still play through it, especially if there is a lot of LOS-blocking terrain, however it will still be an uphill battle for them if they have to eat even 1 turn of shooting from the GK's.

I used to run a 30-interceptor GK list but that is a 1-trick pony list. It is severely lacking in scoring bodies and just does not have the resiliency to last against many of the other armies out there. Now if you are bringing it specifically to battle daemons, then it is nasty against them (especially if you can get 1st turn). However, it just isn't as good a TAC (Take-All-Comer's) list as a Coteaz-striker list and you will have more problems against the other good non-daemon tournament builds.

Screamers can be mitigated somewhat by taking a Aegis Defense Line, which is actually a good investment in an all-foot TAC GK list. Make them charge through cover and you at least having a fighting chance against them should they get the charge off. No matter what though, you need to set up a sacrificial screening unit (or 2) just to eat those charges and/or take the flamer shooting. The more turns you can delay their offense, the more turns you have to shoot them down, the better your chances are (as a GK player).

And as we see more daemons in tournament play, I think we will also see more anti-daemon builds in the future. I do see a shift by some GK players into a more striker-based GK build. Not only is this build effective against daemons, but IMO they can hold their own against the crons and is a great TAC army to boot.

Hulksmash wrote:Though in an environment where all units weren't scoring I'd be unlikely to run into a deamon at the top tables outside of someone like Yermom from Nova who's a dirty genius with his daemons and has been for years.

Much has been made of Flamers/Screamers being scoring (when, actually, they weren't). Their VP's only counted toward controlling table quarters (and Troops counted a lot more toward controlling quarters as they were always treated as being full strength). I think the list the format favored most would be something like Tony Kopach's troop-heavy SW/IG from Nova, or something like the 5x10 GKSS + 3 DK list you've played. Not an army with troops as weak as Daemons. In the end, I don't think scenarios had a whole lot to do with Daemons' success. For my part, I can't think of any matchups I won on table quarters. I won most on KPs and objectives (which only Troops could control), and if table quarters were a condition they were usually just gravy on top. The Screamers/Flamers shined as beatsticks and denial units, not in taking table quarters, and that's just as true in BRB scenarios as it is for the Feast scenarios.

If SW had won, I suspect we'd be hearing a lot about scoring Long Fangs, Rune Priests, and Razorbacks. If Nids had won, it would be scoring Flyrants, Trygons, and Gargoyles. But that's all obfuscating the matter. What table quarters did was arbitrarily nerf Flyers, and I would argue that benefits Daemons less than most armies. As plenty of people have observed, gunlines are Daemons strongest counter, and the format definitely favored gunlines.

@Whigwam

Thanks very much for the lengthy reply, that was very informative.

And I am very glad you got some good info from our bat reps! That is why we do them, so I am glad they help.

We play against Daemons a lot here, so we are more comfortable with them than most people are, but those Flamers and Screamers are pretty bananas for the points.

I think you guys made excellent points though, about Battle Points being a big part of it. That is why we tend to lean away from BP missions as it so heavily favors certain types of lists. In straight W/L or W/L/D, you can make an army that wins by small margins and still win the entire event, which to me is more enjoyable, but that is just me. There is a good argument for both styles of tournament.

Man, I wish we could have come. Frankie has his ticket and his flight paid for, but he had some last minute family stuff come up and had to bail. I just flat out couldn't afford to go this year, but we will certainly make the trip next year.

Glad everyone had so much fun!

@Acherin

Glad you had fun! Getting all 70+ infantry painted in essentially 8 days was crazy! But we got it done and we're really glad that you had a good time with them!

Honestly, I'm surprised that nobody has been talking about the terrain in regards to the proliferation of daemons at Feast of Blades. EVERY table had 3-4 pieces of huge LOS blocking terrain enabling entire squads of daemons to remain completely hidden. In several of my games I lost the roll for table halves and was stuck with zero workable firing lanes. I ended up doing fairly well, finishing somewhere in the twenties, so I'm not here to complain and make excuses.. just making some observations.

Daemons are extremely efficient killers, don't get me wrong. And I'm not trying to take anything away from Whig, who has been a close friend for some 18 years. When your entire army counts for table quarters, kill point missions are ridiculously over-represented [daemons have a tiny 12 kill points, all of which are tough to take out], tabling being a necessity due to battlepoints, and the ability to hide entire squads of close-quarters-oriented units due to poor firing lanes.. it was simply a perfect storm for Daemon armies at FoB.

Michigan, represent!

Big thanks to the staff of FoB for an amazingly well run and fun event. Hopefully everyone made it home safely. See ya there next year!

 hippesthippo wrote:
Honestly, I'm surprised that nobody has been talking about the terrain in regards to the proliferation of daemons at Feast of Blades. EVERY table had 3-4 pieces of huge LOS blocking terrain enabling entire squads of daemons to remain completely hidden. In several of my games I lost the roll for table halves and was stuck with zero workable firing lanes. I ended up doing fairly well, finishing somewhere in the twenties, so I'm not here to complain and make excuses.. just making some observations.

Daemons are extremely efficient killers, don't get me wrong. And I'm not trying to take anything away from Whig, who has been a close friend for some 18 years. When your entire army counts for table quarters, kill point missions are ridiculously over-represented [daemons have a tiny 12 kill points, all of which are tough to take out], tabling being a necessity due to battlepoints, and the ability to hide entire squads of close-quarters-oriented units due to poor firing lanes.. it was simply a perfect storm for Daemon armies at FoB.

Michigan, represent!

Big thanks to the staff of FoB for an amazingly well run and fun event. Hopefully everyone made it home safely. See ya there next year!

Granted I played on the same table most of the tournament but I didn't see this. About the only thing I could consistently hide would be some small 5 man plaguebearer squads. The landing pad-esq thing was more central and off to the side and could be shot from across the table but not directly in front, although since it had pylons on the bottom it wasn't too hard to draw line of site through it. The bunker thing was also in the middle but off to the other side and those two main pieces were offset. The 2 high hills were towards the deployment zones. I didn't feel like I could just hide my stuff from my opponents.

I kept trying to hide behind those pylons, but my opponents kept moving a couple inches to the side and spotting me anyway. I did wind up using the bunker terrain piece to hide some Flamers in my game against Tau/Eldar (lest they get eaten alive by Firewarriors at 30"), but otherwise I wasn't able to hide a whole lot. "Hiding" mostly meant simply staying out of range. I personally think LoS-blocking terrain should be standard, and I've been consistently disappointed by tournaments where the terrain's so sparse I feel like I'm playing on a bare kitchen table. That's half of the reason I brought an ADL.

I played several games where the solid bunker was in the center, depending on deployment type, with multiple large two-tiered hills just off-center.

The problem with the terrain was that it was not difficult terrain other than the landing pad, so demons were never at a disavantage of striking last.

Blackmoor wrote:The problem with the terrain was that it was not difficult terrain other than the landing pad, so demons were never at a disavantage of striking last.

Funny you should mention that. I wound up playing the hills/bunker as difficult in every game on the first day. It was only when my Tyranid opponent corrected me day 2 that I realized we were doing it wrong. That would've helped though!

And there was a DT test required to get on top of the bunker (which was the only way, really, to set up on it). As for the hills, per the BRB, hills are "normally treated as open terrain," so I don't see playing them as open terrain as a problem.

Yeah, I never understood why so many people play hills as area terrain. They weren't difficult in 5th, either. They have always been open terrain. And besides, from a logical point of view, hahaha, standing on top of a hill certainly doesn't make you harder to shoot!

 Reecius wrote:
Yeah, I never understood why so many people play hills as area terrain. They weren't difficult in 5th, either. They have always been open terrain. And besides, from a logical point of view, hahaha, standing on top of a hill certainly doesn't make you harder to shoot!

Indeed! I think I was playing them as DT just out of habit. No idea why 5th was played like that. Forests were weird too. I couldn't get anyone to agree to treat forests as 5+ cover.

And that reminds me, I forgot another one. The top 8 tables (and I'm sure others) had a large forest, treated as area terrain (requiring a DT test), either in the table center or slightly offset from the center. My Screamers charged through those woods many times.

That's a good point, Allan. The only impassable terrain on the tables were those tiny little "white spots of death." A few one inch circles of impassable terrain hardly scare anyone away from deepstriking.

 Reecius wrote:
I predict that these rules will only be an issue until January or so, when the new Daemon books come out. I am willing to bet they lose EW and Fearless, as the BRB defines Daemons as not having either, and the CSM Daemon units didn't have those rules, either.

Flamers went way down in points and are now stupidly good for what you pay.

Daemons won Brawl in the Fall and took a second high placing as well, and they also won a 40 person GT in Ireland recently as well. All of them heavily featured Tzeentch Daemons.

I like that Daemons are better, but Flamers and Screamers are a bit too much in the current rules. Now that you can't fully reserve and with most folks not taking Mech, it is brutal if you deploy poorly. Flamers are damn near impossible to assault, too, for many armies.

My question though, is how did these armies do against an Air Force list? I think that would be a very difficult match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and a big congratz to the winner! Well played!

Daemons also won the Midwest Massacre GT in September with a similar build except more flamers via double force org .

I actually did okay against the new daemons on day 1 with my IG/SoB(W/ Celestine)
Game one: 60 Points against standard daemon list
Game two: 38 Points against Drop pod Space marines
Game three: 46 Points against GK/Eldar
Game four: 100 points against standard daemon list + Fateweaver/Lord of change

I ended day one 4-0 with 244 points which wasnt enough to make the top bracket by I think one point. My list was strong but as stated above lacked the ability to really table anyone and it was hard to win kill points in every other mission.

Day 2
Defended the top table once vs AirCrons/Orks and then lost a close game against Crons/GK.

All in all it was a fun event. I definitely prefer W/L over battle points but they made it work here. The win loss for day two was battle point based so in some missions you could actually outscore your opponents in 2 of the 3 missions but still lose the mission. Other then that I had nothing to say about the event and had some of the best judges I have seen at an event all year.

I'd dare say that he's just being obtuse.

@Whigwam

Yeah, there were a lot of things that only gave a 5+ and NO ONE played it that way! haha

@Tomb King

Damn dude, Daemons are going crazy! Hahaha. I think it will be as much tactics as list that overcomes this trend. They are damn good, but we're already brainstorming some ideas to fight them. We luckily have a full time Daemon player on the team so we get lots of practice.

Well done on doing so well.

What were some of your tactics against the Daemons? I am curious as you seem to have done quite well against them.

Reece,

I still think daemons are going to have a tough time with Necron flyers. It all depends on the first drop and what is on the table but they have no real way if they double,down on Flamers and screamers. Flamers and Screamers are also under costed for what they do. Wolf and I were talking about it today and you basically need to,be ale to cause at least 164 wounds roughly to take the, down which I don't think any army out there could produce on a level as your talking close to 300 dice to,get the hits in either melee or shooting.

There is some serious game balance issues already with 6th. I hope they get addressed soon otherwise the game is going to be in a troubling state.

Sorry for misspellings and errors posting on phone.

My problem isn't with the power level of certain factions or units. In a faction based game with over 10 factions you are always going to have some issues since the factions are updated piecemeal instead of all at once(like in Warmachine or Hordes).

The problem is that these lists deform the environment/meta. They absolutely ruin average armies. Your list has to have a chance to be able to deal with CronAir, Daemons that the GW studio probably isn't playing with EW anymore, IG, etc? Yeah right that's not going to happen. It's not like when Nob Bikers came out and you could just change your list around to take them out. That was one list and it was easily beat. Now it seems like there are a bunch of Actual monster armies.

GW has really dropped the ball. Why did they release these point costs for the Daemons? Assuming they are taking EW away from them(it seems it is a disassociative rule and they are getting away from that) it is just plain sloppy to release them with points that don't take EW into effect.

 Reecius wrote:
@Whigwam

Yeah, there were a lot of things that only gave a 5+ and NO ONE played it that way! haha

@Tomb King

Damn dude, Daemons are going crazy! Hahaha. I think it will be as much tactics as list that overcomes this trend. They are damn good, but we're already brainstorming some ideas to fight them. We luckily have a full time Daemon player on the team so we get lots of practice.

Well done on doing so well.

What were some of your tactics against the Daemons? I am curious as you seem to have done quite well against them.

I actually learned how to play the game against a friend who ran fate crusher religiously. So I actually really like my odds against daemons most of the time as I haven't lost to daemons in almost 2 years. I will try to get some brief battle reports up later this week but my main strategy was dakkadakkadakka they are after all only T4 models. The biggest threat to me were the flamers. The screamers are kind of mean but people always turbo boost and leave them tightly packed. When people deep strike flamers in they usually put them close and flame on turn 1. As a guard player that again leaves you in a tightly packed formation and easy to hit with flamers and other templates. If possible I tie the flamers up in combat somehow they can at max do 27 wall of death attacks. However, on average they should cause around 6 wounds. The trick is to multi-charge them. In my game one I charged them with 3 sisters which he killed but celestine made it into combat with them and tied the flamers up for the game with her 2+/4++.

Main strategy I use for the current daemons is castle and if I go first spread out enough to give my opponent a small window to deep strike in my ranks(hoping for a mishap or accepting the easy kill if he gets only 1 unit in the window) and max firepower on one target until its dead and then move to the next threat. In game 4 my opponent brought in fateweaver. I weakened fate weavers resolve with the PBS and then used the hydra flak tanks and other dakka to cause one wound and instant gibbed fateweaver turn 1. Daemons are still weak to mech builds that have a lot of firepower. I will put more in my battle reports but that is the general strategy I follow.

Lasguns with first rank fire second rank fire really takes a toll on a T4 5++ and T3 4++ army.

Also plague zombies are great for tying up both screamers and flamers in combat.

@Darkwynn

I agree 100%. I think Flyers are going to have a lot of answers to Daemons. So long as they don't get tabled turn 1, I don't see Daemons winning that fight often.

I think that there are big balance issues in 40K, but when isn't there? I am building all of my lists towards balance these days. I take enough of everything to counter the main lists (I hope).

I think that is what the best players will be doing as it doesn't leave you with the huge vulnerabilities that spam lists have. Well, the vulnerabilities are huge in the sense that if someone has the counter to your one or two weaknesses, you are toast. The balanced lists may not have the raw power, but they do have consistency which is what I look for in a tournament winning army.

@Tomb King

I agree. I play Daemons a lot and deployment is everything against them. You have to dictate where they drop and if you can do that and survive the initial kick to the nuts, you can often take them down.

RoF is the best bet too, as the invul save doesn't mean anything.

Big Bird is a bastard, but if you can get that one shot, one kill on him, he is a massive liability. PBS/Hydras are pretty much his worst enemy! haha

I would be very interested in seeing a bat rep with more details if you have time to write one up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I find that Daemon don’t make any sense at the best of times. Now they’re benefiting from ADL Comms? That’s just absurd...

They aren't meant to make sense, ever... isn't that they're point?

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I agree 100%. I think Flyers are going to have a lot of answers to Daemons. So long as they don't get tabled turn 1, I don't see Daemons winning that fight often.

I think that there are big balance issues in 40K, but when isn't there? I am building all of my lists towards balance these days. I take enough of everything to counter the main lists (I hope).

I think that is what the best players will be doing as it doesn't leave you with the huge vulnerabilities that spam lists have. Well, the vulnerabilities are huge in the sense that if someone has the counter to your one or two weaknesses, you are toast. The balanced lists may not have the raw power, but they do have consistency which is what I look for in a tournament winning army.

@Tomb King

I agree. I play Daemons a lot and deployment is everything against them. You have to dictate where they drop and if you can do that and survive the initial kick to the nuts, you can often take them down.

RoF is the best bet too, as the invul save doesn't mean anything.

Big Bird is a bastard, but if you can get that one shot, one kill on him, he is a massive liability. PBS/Hydras are pretty much his worst enemy! haha

I would be very interested in seeing a bat rep with more details if you have time to write one up.

Which means its going to come down to match ups more and more know and hope you don't draw that one hard counter list. I don't know if that will be good for the game in the long run. We will have to wait and see but I think this is going to have negative impact on the game over all.

@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

My list was built to win games not table. It was pretty balanced but it could not table opponents. I only tabled one and that is bound to happen sometimes with even a balanced list. The only army I was really afraid of was Deathwing it it has so many hard counters that I wasnt too worried about running into them. One thing is certain. I didnt really see any mech GK list this last weekend. Its like all the GK players disappeared or are only running them as allies.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

My list was built to win games not table. It was pretty balanced but it could not table opponents. I only tabled one and that is bound to happen sometimes with even a balanced list. The only army I was really afraid of was Deathwing it it has so many hard counters that I wasnt too worried about running into them. One thing is certain. I didnt really see any mech GK list this last weekend. Its like all the GK players disappeared or are only running them as allies.

There was one from our Austin crew Tomb King but he had to play Goatboy and they both knocked each other out.

Darkwynn wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@Darkwynn

I was just discussing this with Facepuncher on our team, he is saying he feels that 40K is become more and more like Magic where you just can't build a list to counter everything as the extreme lists are becoming more extreme and there are more and more of them.

I still hold on to hope that you can generalize and not lose too much punch. I hope that is the way forward, but only time will tell.

My list was built to win games not table. It was pretty balanced but it could not table opponents. I only tabled one and that is bound to happen sometimes with even a balanced list. The only army I was really afraid of was Deathwing it it has so many hard counters that I wasnt too worried about running into them. One thing is certain. I didnt really see any mech GK list this last weekend. Its like all the GK players disappeared or are only running them as allies.

There was one from our Austin crew Tomb King but he had to play Goatboy and they both knocked each other out.

That is basically what me and Blackmoor did in round 3. We played game three of battle points and I knew neither of us were probably gonna get many points from the match.

anyone know what the top 8 nid list looked like?

TheContortionist wrote:anyone know what the top 8 nid list looked like?

I played it on day two, so here it is to the best of my memory (and I'm probably going to overlook a truckload of upgrades---Nids are the army I'm least familiar with):

2x Flyrant (one taking BRB powers)
2x Tervigon (both taking BRB powers)
3x Trygon
2x 20 Termagants
2x 20 Gargoyles
Doom of Malantai / Mycetic Spore

Again, not quite sure of any upgrades (and I'm guessing the big gribblies all had some). But I think that covers all the units used.

I want to mention again that this was one of the toughest matchups I faced. Very strong player, very strong list. I think people can throw the notion that "Tyranids are dead" on the rubbish heap along with "assault is dead" and "transports are dead."

thanks man. do you remember if the guy you played was named matt? guessing from the list i'm thinking no. but the three trygons make me think it's him.

I'm terrible with names, so I'm not sure... His army was painted in a very distinctive neon green if that helps.

The top 8 nid player was Rob O'Byrne. The list up there is correct on models. Upgrades were a little off.

One hive tyrant had preferred enemy. Both had single devourers.

The two tervigon's were not upgraded (no poison, furious charge or crushing claws).

The reason why whigwam had such a rough time is because Rob is the nid player I regulary beat up on with my daemons and I've been helping him to come up with counter tactics for the nids .

How many orks showed up? (pure orks that is!)


Any idea what the top lists there looked like?


(or the lists using orks as primary/allies)


Thanks!

skyfi wrote:
How many orks showed up? (pure orks that is!)


Any idea what the top lists there looked like?


(or the lists using orks as primary/allies)


Thanks!

I have a feeling Orks didn't make it very far in the invitational.

 matphat wrote:

skyfi wrote:
How many orks showed up? (pure orks that is!)


Any idea what the top lists there looked like?


(or the lists using orks as primary/allies)


Thanks!

I have a feeling Orks didn't make it very far in the invitational.

That is a shame really.

There were no orks in the top 8. The winner of the second bracket was a necron player with ork allies (meganobz, ghaz, grots, and a battlewagon).

There were a few necron/ork alliances but I didn't see the green represent that much.

IIRC, a pure-Ork army won Armies on Parade. So there was at least one pure-Ork player out there. Not sure how he did in the rankings, but his army was gorgeous to look at.

My Necrorks had a rough time, mostly due to incompetent command

Funny thing, Orks are probably one of the armies best equipped to go to town on those scary Daemons. Lots of Fearless bodies, lots of shots and lots of attacks.

@Chumby

I agree. Most of the Ork foot armies I'm looking at are ridiculous in the current environment.

Agreed. I think orks are pretty good. I was considering a list like this (not sure how many points total).

PK Warboss
KFF Big Mek
3x15 lootas
6x30 shoota boys
3x dakkajets

Probably need to scale that down to get to 2K.

 jy2 wrote:
Agreed. I think orks are pretty good. I was considering a list like this (not sure how many points total).

PK Warboss
KFF Big Mek
3x15 lootas
6x30 shoota boys
3x dakkajets

Probably need to scale that down to get to 2K.

Good framework and what I'd expect to see as well, though I think the above is between 2500 and 2600 points, so a significant amount would have to be cut

Target wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Agreed. I think orks are pretty good. I was considering a list like this (not sure how many points total).

PK Warboss
KFF Big Mek
3x15 lootas
6x30 shoota boys
3x dakkajets

Probably need to scale that down to get to 2K.

Good framework and what I'd expect to see as well, though I think the above is between 2500 and 2600 points, so a significant amount would have to be cut

Thought so. In that case, drop about 5 lootas from each unit, 1 dakkajet and if necessary, downgrade 1 unit of boys to 1 unit of gretchins for objective camping.

Still off topic...but.....

Basic 1850 would look like:

2xBig Mek in Mega Armor
2x15 Lootas
4x20 Boyz w/PK Nob
3xDakka Jet
3x3 Kannon w/Bonus crew & runtherder

163 models with a ton of fearless and pretty darn mobile.

I think you have to have 6 groups of boys. The lootas are nice, but you can definitely get by with just a single group of 15. Changes to fearless etc make the big groups of boys monsters.

Those lists look great and all, till you realize you have 1.5 hours to complete the game.

Don't forget the Necron allies. Even something as simple as 2 Scythes gives you a lot of AA and mobile scoring.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Don't forget the Necron allies. Even something as simple as 2 Scythes gives you a lot of AA and mobile scoring.

Orks can't have scoring allies, can they?

Chaos, IG, Necrons, and Tau are all Allies of Convenience for Orks (that means they score).

I feel like orks are strong enough. I think that lootas x 15 can't go to ground but that's another thread


Also I have a hard time finishing games in 2hours with my less than 100 model count 2k list... can't imagine nearly 200.


I honestly expected to see some orks place well, didn't expect top 16 or anything, but figured maybe in top 24/32... curious what builds did better than others.


Only pure ork army I heard about from there was a wazdakka bike list?