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Hey guys

I know they just wrapped up FoB but I haven't seen any threads about it here. Anyone know the results, what lists were played etc?

Alex B. won the invitational with chaos daemons.

The top bracket was dominated by daemons who took full advantage of their codex update in WD. In fact Chaos Daemons were on the top table 6 out of 7 games.

Someone who was there explained to me that the demons were allowed to play using the FAQ'd demon rules, 40k demon rules, and codex demon rules... which amounted to flamers having a 4+ invuln 2 wound and auto wound/glance on a 4+ with flamer? I'm not too familiar with deamons so curious why the standings panned out the way they did

Your correct on everything but the invuln. It is, and was played at FoB, as a 5+.

I wasn't there, although I wanted to be, so I'm just speaking generally. But Daemons have a lot of things going for them.

They were always efficient infantry killers. And as people de-mech daemons just rise that much in the meta. Then people haven't practiced against daemons because they've been down in the dumps for so long, so they take a lot of people by surprise. People can't full reserve against them anymore which is a huge boon. And then the screamers/flamers from the white dwarf update are extremely powerful.

IMO the meta is still in an extreme state of flux where people don't know what to practice against or bring. And I think daemons benefit a lot in that environment.

And without knowing exactly what they ruled I can't really comment on the multiple sources of rules, other than to say I think they did it right. Because of odd wording in the FAQs you do need to go to all of those places to get the complete set of rules for a daemon army.

I am not really surprised about the Daemon presence, the WD update really put them into the competitive bracket in a major way. I'm not one to cry broken, but my guess is this will not continue past the next codex release.

This is meta changing army now though, in major tournaments: if you cannot deal with a flamer/screamer heavy Daemon list you may want to either reconsider your build, or participating in the tournament.

The biggest killer was screamers. The ability to deepstrike in then turboboost 24" over a target to hit it and gain 4+ cover crushed most things. They could then move 24" back toward their target to assault with a pile of attacks at s5 ap2 to finish the job.

I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

Didn't see any FAQ on their page to let Updated daemons have an invul save. Did the TO call it there?
Screamers sv-
Flamers sv-

I suppose I am just fuzzy on the rules then!

Is there some debate/argument as to what stats screamers/flamers have etc?


The picture I sort of drew from what I was told was, that the demons had favorable odds due to the way the rules were being interpreted at FOB

But I don't really know.. That's why I have to ask about the existence of a debate regarding the rules for flamers/screamers etc?



So don't take this message negatively, I'm just trying to understand why the demons placed so well in droves over all competition. I understand the de-mechanization, and how that helps demons. Also with a lull in their presence competitively it could lend itself to people "forgetting" (even if temporarily) how to deal with these units?


I have only got to play against demons before their WD update, so my knowledge on the subject is rather limited.


Hopefully one of you smarty-gits can educate me!

Didn't see any FAQ on their page to let Updated daemons have an invul save. Did the TO call it there?
Screamers sv-
Flamers sv-

They have the Daemon special rule, which is in the rule book and gives them a 5++ and Fear

 winterman wrote:

Didn't see any FAQ on their page to let Updated daemons have an invul save. Did the TO call it there?
Screamers sv-
Flamers sv-

They have the Daemon special rule, which is in the rule book and gives them a 5++ and Fear

Yea not really though.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/485552.page

that's why I'm wondering if the TO said they did, looking for something to give precedence at our local shop

The Daemon rule in the main rulebook grants Flamers and Screamers the 5+ invul save. Their Codex Updates are to be considered as part of the Daemons Codex, which grants them the Eternal Warrior rule. These are not in conflict, that is they do not say different things are to be granted to Daemons, therefore they are to be used together. Supposedly next year Daemons will get a new Codex which will clump it all together, probably nerf both units somehow, and then everyone who got slaughtered by Daemons can breathe a sigh of relief.

I don't what that Comms thing is, but I'm gonna check it out. I need to get some more Screamers!

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

Gratz on the win!

For the rest of you would be tournament goers, that is the list to beat (give or take a daemon or two).

It pretty much hoses any army that is forced to pay points for an armor save, or depends on vehicles for durability. It is also very rough on hordes because of the templates, turbo boosted flybys, and hammer of wrath.

Whigwam, I'm curious did you play vs a cron air force? Did it give you, or other daemon players any trouble?

Actually, what list did you play against that caused you the most problems?

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Daemon rule in the main rulebook grants Flamers and Screamers the 5+ invul save. Their Codex Updates are to be considered as part of the Daemons Codex, which grants them the Eternal Warrior rule. These are not in conflict, that is they do not say different things are to be granted to Daemons, therefore they are to be used together. Supposedly next year Daemons will get a new Codex which will clump it all together, probably nerf both units somehow, and then everyone who got slaughtered by Daemons can breathe a sigh of relief.

I don't what that Comms thing is, but I'm gonna check it out. I need to get some more Screamers!

Thank you for clearing that up


Comms relay is 20 point upgrade for aegis defense line that allows you to re roll reserve rolls.


Im also curious what gave you a run for your money.

This is why I believe that Strike Squads will be making a comeback in the near future..

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Daemon rule in the main rulebook grants Flamers and Screamers the 5+ invul save. Their Codex Updates are to be considered as part of the Daemons Codex, which grants them the Eternal Warrior rule. These are not in conflict, that is they do not say different things are to be granted to Daemons, therefore they are to be used together. Supposedly next year Daemons will get a new Codex which will clump it all together, probably nerf both units somehow, and then everyone who got slaughtered by Daemons can breathe a sigh of relief.

I don't what that Comms thing is, but I'm gonna check it out. I need to get some more Screamers!

That doesn't sum it up unfortunately. pg 32 BGB "unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

Liquidice281 wrote:
This is why I believe that Strike Squads will be making a comeback in the near future..

Because of warpquake?

It would help in the begining if they mishap into the quake and prevent some serious flamer templates through area denial, but they are good as dead once they have boots on the ground.

 Ghostcat wrote:

Liquidice281 wrote:
This is why I believe that Strike Squads will be making a comeback in the near future..

Because of warpquake?

It would help in the begining if they mishap into the quake and prevent some serious flamer templates through area denial, but they are good as dead once they have boots on the ground.

It'll help vs the flamers but not so much against the screamers.

DS
Turbo-Boost
Still gonna get ya get ya ^^

I agree with ya,

I predict that these rules will only be an issue until January or so, when the new Daemon books come out. I am willing to bet they lose EW and Fearless, as the BRB defines Daemons as not having either, and the CSM Daemon units didn't have those rules, either.

Flamers went way down in points and are now stupidly good for what you pay.

Daemons won Brawl in the Fall and took a second high placing as well, and they also won a 40 person GT in Ireland recently as well. All of them heavily featured Tzeentch Daemons.

I like that Daemons are better, but Flamers and Screamers are a bit too much in the current rules. Now that you can't fully reserve and with most folks not taking Mech, it is brutal if you deploy poorly. Flamers are damn near impossible to assault, too, for many armies.

My question though, is how did these armies do against an Air Force list? I think that would be a very difficult match.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and a big congratz to the winner! Well played!

I was in attendance at the event and played the eventual runner up round 1. At the end all that he had left were 2 plaguebearers, and he said himself that he had no choice but to ignore the flyers. I was using Crons/Orks with the following list:

Overlord

3 Stormteks

12 Warriors
-Night scythe
7 Warriors
-Night scythe
9 Gauss immortals
-Night scythe

2x5 Wraiths

3 Annihilation barges

Big Mek

15 Lootas

30 Shoota boyz w/ 3 big shootas

When making the list I knew that it had to be geared to beat daemons because of how many people have picked them up since the update. In order to win vs you need to be able to reliably knock fateweaver out of the air and reliably cause large amounts of wounds on T4 models. As was mentioned above its almost too much for a lot of armies to get sweep attacked and then immediately assaulted the next turn by one of the premier assault units in the game with usually only one turn of shooting.

So to answer your question Reece, cron flyers seem to work pretty well vs daemons because you can hit fateweaver early and also get your troops where they need to be late in the game rather than have them bottled up in your deployment zone dying from turn 1.

I also just wanted to say that Feast was a great event and well worth the 14 hour drive from Phoenix. Everyone that came up had an amazing time in all the events that were put on. Looking forward to next year.

Thanks for your insights!

That sounds about how I would expect that showdown to go.

You said it though, your typical list is going to get smashed over the head by Tzeentch Daemons this edition. I played them at Brawl in the Fall with a decent IG/Blood Angels list and while I did have pretty crappy dice, the only thing that even made it a game was the fact that 2 of the 3 Flamer units misshaped coming in, one dying the other going to a far corner of the board. Had that not happened, my run of the mill force would have been murdified!

That Ork/Cron tag team is doing extremely well these days, and I think your instincts were right on the money with them being able to take Daemons (and it shows too, as you did so well against them).

I think the other really good counter to the Daemons is DE. They could care less about an invul save and they pour so many wounds on with Poison weapons that they can chew through those Daemon units rapidly. Combo that with Eldar allies, and they stand very good odds.

This was my first out of state tournament, and it was definitely a winner. I won't say anything about the numerous demons lists, as that is being talked to death all over the internet. My overall impression of the event as a whole was pretty good. The hotel was nice, the events were reasonably priced, and the competition was definitely up to snuff. I have only two criticisms of the event, both gaming related. The first is the Qual by Fire event Friday Night, which was the last chance you had to qualify for the Invitational. The pairings were random, which I think was a bit of a mistake. I played my second round against a guy who had considerably less Battle Points than I did, and my third round I played someone who had drawn their first game and lost their second game, while I had nearly maxed both games. Other than that, it was pretty fun, the 1.5 hour rounds kept everyone moving quickly.

The second was the missions for the Invitational. I was one of only two pure Dark Eldar players at the event, and we both got hammered pretty badly day 1. The reason was, though we did very well from a gaming standpoint, 6/7 missions for the event had Killpoints involved. And in each mission, it was worth half of the available points. I know that in 2 of the KP missions on the first day, I got a minor win on the other objective, but it was like losing because the other guy usually scored max points on the Killpoint mission. And on day two, Table Quarters and Objectives were almost invariably drawn, so results more often than not came down to who had more KPs. This is all from what I saw in my own games, and games around me, but i imagine that it was mirrored all over the event.

Outside of those two hiccups, the event was very good. The 40k events stayed more or less on schedule. The food at the hotel was very good, and they had quick, cheap food and meal options for those playing games. The Saturday night 40k team trivia was a lot of fun, and had everyone laughing at some of the goofy answers people gave. There was plenty of time allowed for sleep, and outside of a fire alarm hiccup on Sunday morning, everyone seemed well-rested. Overall, it was a great event, and I will make an effort to go next year.

you left out Colorado is the best state ever

My history with Daemons is interesting. I originally picked them up in 5th because I loved the models. I remember one day walking
into a game store and seeing a guy fielding the Forge World Greater Daemons. I thought "wow', those are so killer". So, my
path was set. I amased a huge Daemon army, and played a lot of games of 5th without really knowing what I was doing. Eventually,
I found Fatecrusher in 5th, and began dominating. I would routinely table such power builds like Draigo Wing, Leaf Blower, and
Purifier Spam with it.

When 6th rolled around and Bloodcrushers were nerfed, I began toying with other builds. When the new White Dwarf update came out,
I quickly was able to develop lists around Screamers & Flamers. In the next few weeks, I saw the Nova Results where Nick took 2nd with
an almost identicle list to what I was using. I thought "hey, that's cool. I developed an original net list".

These tournament results are dissapointing. It shows a trend in 40K that I think is really negative. I would speculate that most of the Daemon
players at Feast are "band wagon" players. Meaning they purchased a daemon army not because they love the models, but because it is
really good in the game. A Ben Franklin says 90% of them will sell their daemon armies after they are updated and the unit power structure changes.

 whigwam wrote:
I'm the fellow who won the invitational. My list was as follows:

Herald of Tz.

3x9 Flamers

9 Horrors (Changeling)
8 Horrors (w/ Herald)
2x7 Plaguebearers
5 Plaguebearers

3x9 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

I think I was the only Daemon player without 1-2 FMC's. Otherwise it's a rather cookie cutter list.

The runner up had:

Fateweaver
Masque

3x9 Flamers

4x7 Plaguebearers

3x6 Screamers

ADL w/ Comms

Also in the top 8 were Nids, Tau/Eldar, GK/Tau, and several more Daemons. Thanks to Duke for putting on a great event. I'm already looking forward to next year.

First of all, congrats to Whigwham for a job well done. That is a very extreme list that probably 95% of the people out there would have problems against.


However, as good as it is, it is still a hammer list. A big hammer, but nonetheless, it can be overcome by a paper list and some tactical play. And no, cronair isn't a solution. This list IMO has the resiliency to survive a full-on necron airforce list. Worse yet, it has the potential to table Cronair on Turn 1 if the necron player does not deploy enough units on the ground. What you need to beat it is a large amount of firepower and an equally resilient army on the board. The Green Tide orks backed by lootas and/or dakkajets, grey knight Coteaz-striker-spam, hybrid wraithing-tesla necrons, shooty-MSU builds and even psychic-heavy tyranids are some of the armies that can give daemons a problem.

But for now, people are going to have to figure out how to deal with both Tzeentch daemons and necron flyer/hybrid-flyer lists in the tournaments to come.

I find that Daemon don’t make any sense at the best of times. Now they’re benefiting from ADL Comms? That’s just absurd...

Model the comms relay as an altar and the problem is fixed.

'Counts As' doesn't fix the underlying absurdity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
'Counts As' doesn't fix the underlying absurdity.

Why is it other armies can reap the benefits of Comms but daemons can't? Just call it a Warp Beacon or something like that.