If all the Warhammer 40k Gods were to do a 1v1 combat with each other, who would be the strongest?
C'tans? Chaos Gods? Eldar Gods? Ork Gods? Hive Mind?
The Nightbringer and Khaine should be out of the picture since there is already prove that they are both weak compared to other gods. Khaine kicking the nightbringer's butt but got beaten up by Slannesh
Here is an excerpt from the codex entry for Skarbrand:
Skarbrand took up his axe and struck a blow against the Blood God
Though powerful enough to have felled an army, Skarbrand's strike only opened a small chink in the armor of the Blood God
Oh and here is another one in case you don't believe me. This time it is from the fluff in the beginning of the codex:
Upon a throne of brass, Khorne sits atop a mountainous dias made of the skulls of his champions and their defeated opponents. Beside him rests a great two-handed sword, capable of laying waste to worlds with a single blow.
He would breathe and everyone would fall down. Simple as that
Gork and Mork have been stated to be divine powerhouses that can't be defeated.
They can shrug the attacks of other gods off with a laugh.
Frankly if Khorne could have beaten them down he would have by now being the psycho that he is.
IMO Gork and/or Mork are the strongest deities in the setting, but i'd love to see a beatdown between Khorne and Gork (from a hell of a distance ) to prove it once and for all.
Gork and Mork are an interesting case. Very little of known them and they seem to exist in the Warp without any interaction from the Chaos Gods.
However given that like the Gods of Chaos they are psychic manifestations of their client races, given the inclination of Orks towards fighting combined with the sheer size of their numbers I would say G & M are indeed the strongest entities in the Warp in terms of single combat.
Chaos gods do not have client races. They are the embodiment of emotion. All of that rage, war, and hate that the orks produce feed khorne. Same with all other war and rage and hate and blood. It's not just a specific race that represents the chaos gods
No the Ork stuff fuels Gork and Mork somehow. The others that happen to be fighting them fuel Khorne.
It's also not hate and rage for Khorne, that's more closer to Slaanesh's realm, though sort of fit in both at the same time in a way. Honour also fuels Khorne, as each of them has a lesser known "good" side; by that its more of they also get powered by positive emotions within their sphere of influence. They're not as two dimensional as they're usually made out to be.
Gork n' Mork, cuz Orkz are made for 2 fings. Foightin, and winnin'.
Naturally, the patron gods of that race would wreck anything in their path.
Isn't it stated that the emperor himself freaked out the first time he felt Gork n' Mork's presence in the warp, claiming they were some of the most powerful beings he'd ever seen? And haven't they beaten the crap out of nurgle because he tried to spread a plague amongst the orks as well? I keep hearing those two stories but I can never seem to find where they come from. Could be rumors or fanfic for all I know.
Does the Emperor count as a God? If so, he wins (technically, he defeated all the Chaos Gods at once). If he doesn't count, then Khorne is top dog.
The Eldar Gods have proven weaker than the Chaos Gods, the C'Tan were beaten by the Necrons (who aren't even gods), and if Gork and Mork exist (which I'm not even sure of, given that the fluff for their existence is from the RT era), they are clearly not strong enough to be a significant force in the warp (otherwise, the Chaos Gods would have all been krumped by now; so from that we can conclude they don't measure up to them).
He defeated someone who was blessed/possessed by all four chaos gods at once, barely, and died doing it Not qite the same as fighting all four Gods in person.
Gork could still use his skull as a dice cup, and he knows it
Gork and Mork are in the current (late 4th) Ork codex too btw. They are still very much a part of the current fluff.
Pg 15
'Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong that they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh...' etc. It's a long quote.
SInce the only Gods in the Warp are the Chaos gods and old Boney, and they aren't able to even hurt them, it would seem to argue that they are the strongest. Not the smartest, but definitely the strongest.
The Eldar gods are all dead bar two. Slaanesh killed them when S/HE was born, but that was when fuelled by the souls of pretty much the entire Eldar race. S/HE is a bit less potent these days.
The Ork gods are a huge force in the Warp. They just don't give a feth about ruling it. Also why wipe out the chaos gods when it's far more fun to own them again and again and again. Killing them just robs you of future fights.
He defeated someone who was blessed/possessed by all four chaos gods at once, barely, and died doing it Not qite the same as fighting all four Gods in person.
Gork could still use his skull as a dice cup, and he knows it
Gork and Mork are in the current (late 4th) Ork codex too btw. They are still very much a part of the current fluff.
Pg 15
'Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong that they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh...' etc. It's a long quote.
SInce the only Gods in the Warp are the Chaos gods and old Boney, and they aren't able to even hurt them, it would seem to argue that they are the strongest. Not the smartest, but definitely the strongest.
The Eldar gods are all dead bar two. Slaanesh killed them when S/HE was born, but that was when fuelled by the souls of pretty much the entire Eldar race. S/HE is a bit less potent these days.
The Ork gods are a huge force in the Warp. They just don't give a feth about ruling it. Also why wipe out the chaos gods when it's far more fun to own them again and again and again. Killing them just robs you of future fights.
The Emperor died fighting Horus because he refused to fight until after he was mortally wounded.
Being mentioned is not the same as being shown to exist. Not once in recent 40k fluff have Gork and Mork ever done anything. Arguing that they don't care about constantly fighting and killing things is to argue that they're un-Orky (after all, Orks don't let their enemies get away so that they can fight them again). And would anyone seriously argue that the gods of the Orks are un-Orky?
I stand by my assertion that if Gork and Mork exist, they are either powerful enough to crush everything in the warp (and by their very nature would be compelled to do so, just as regular Orks are compelled to seek out fights), or they aren't big players. If Gork and Mork were stronger than the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Gods would not be around. They are around, so Gork and Mork must either not exist, or not be as powerful as the Orks believe.
But we can disagree. This is 40k after all. The fluff is often deliberately self-contradicting.
VampireDeLaVega wrote: If all the Warhammer 40k Gods were to do a 1v1 combat with each other, who would be the strongest?
C'tans? Chaos Gods? Eldar Gods? Ork Gods? Hive Mind?
The Nightbringer and Khaine should be out of the picture since there is already prove that they are both weak compared to other gods. Khaine kicking the nightbringer's butt but got beaten up by Slannesh
Khaine was starved from lack of worship when Slaanesh, who was amplified by the power of the Eldar race and their gods, shattered him.
That Khaine was a pathetic shadow of his true self.
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n0t_u wrote: No the Ork stuff fuels Gork and Mork somehow. The others that happen to be fighting them fuel Khorne.
It's also not hate and rage for Khorne, that's more closer to Slaanesh's realm, though sort of fit in both at the same time in a way. Honour also fuels Khorne, as each of them has a lesser known "good" side; by that its more of they also get powered by positive emotions within their sphere of influence. They're not as two dimensional as they're usually made out to be.
Uh, hate and rage certainly fuel Khorne, and are absolutely two of his primary domains, beyond martial honor.
Anyway, the most powerful Warp deities in 40k are Gork and Mork.
Gork and Mork kind of confuse me. I'm not really sure if they exist. Where did they come from? Did they always exist because the other chaos gods didn't always exist? Were they born like the other chaos gods and why don't the other chaos gods unify against them, like they did against the Emperor, if Gork and Mork are such a threat? I think it's been said that they are asleep and only when the orks completely unify will they awaken. Maybe awaken means born like the other Chaos gods.
He defeated someone who was blessed/possessed by all four chaos gods at once, barely, and died doing it Not qite the same as fighting all four Gods in person.
Gork could still use his skull as a dice cup, and he knows it
Gork and Mork are in the current (late 4th) Ork codex too btw. They are still very much a part of the current fluff.
Pg 15
'Gork and Mork are divine powerhouses, deities so strong that they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug off the attacks of other gods with a raucous laugh...' etc. It's a long quote.
SInce the only Gods in the Warp are the Chaos gods and old Boney, and they aren't able to even hurt them, it would seem to argue that they are the strongest. Not the smartest, but definitely the strongest.
The Eldar gods are all dead bar two. Slaanesh killed them when S/HE was born, but that was when fuelled by the souls of pretty much the entire Eldar race. S/HE is a bit less potent these days.
The Ork gods are a huge force in the Warp. They just don't give a feth about ruling it. Also why wipe out the chaos gods when it's far more fun to own them again and again and again. Killing them just robs you of future fights.
The Emperor died fighting Horus because he refused to fight until after he was mortally wounded.
Being mentioned is not the same as being shown to exist. Not once in recent 40k fluff have Gork and Mork ever done anything. Arguing that they don't care about constantly fighting and killing things is to argue that they're un-Orky (after all, Orks don't let their enemies get away so that they can fight them again). And would anyone seriously argue that the gods of the Orks are un-Orky?
I stand by my assertion that if Gork and Mork exist, they are either powerful enough to crush everything in the warp (and by their very nature would be compelled to do so, just as regular Orks are compelled to seek out fights), or they aren't big players. If Gork and Mork were stronger than the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Gods would not be around. They are around, so Gork and Mork must either not exist, or not be as powerful as the Orks believe.
But we can disagree. This is 40k after all. The fluff is often deliberately self-contradicting.
Being mentioned explicitly as existing is not the same as existing in the fluff? OK.... The fluff says that they exist and are badasses. That's enough for me, and i'll agree to disagree. There isn't much fluff on the Chaos Gods actually doing anything directly either, or the Eldar Gods...
There's a couple of different versions of the Emperor/Horus fight also, Personally i like the oldest one, where E got his arm ripped off and his eye put out, but that's long since retconned by the Departmentum Propagandum. That one had the Emperor fighting almost all-out, and only beating Horus by using all but the very last fading iota of his life force to fwackoom him. Much better written than the more recent stuff.
The Ork fluff also has Ghaz being the prophet of Gork and Mork (who talk to him) , the Gargants being infused (literally) with the gods' power when they fire up and Snikrot's knives being blessed by Mork.
The Ork gods like to fight. Wiping out your opponents means you don't get to fight them again as opposed to beating them up once in a while. The Ork gods are bright enough to know this Orks sometimes do let respected enemies go, so they'll have someone good to fight again. Ghaz did so with Yarrick, for example.
Given the way that 40K fluff goes (including sweeping rewrites by certain writers to buff their favourite factions :( ) it's all good. Take whatever bits of the fluff you like, and ignore the rest
n0t_u wrote: No the Ork stuff fuels Gork and Mork somehow. The others that happen to be fighting them fuel Khorne.
It's also not hate and rage for Khorne, that's more closer to Slaanesh's realm, though sort of fit in both at the same time in a way. Honour also fuels Khorne, as each of them has a lesser known "good" side; by that its more of they also get powered by positive emotions within their sphere of influence. They're not as two dimensional as they're usually made out to be.
Uh, hate and rage certainly fuel Khorne, and are absolutely two of his primary domains, beyond martial honor.
Anyway, the most powerful Warp deities in 40k are Gork and Mork.
To an extent.
Every emotion in excess sends some power to Slaanesh as well. Choosing a god focuses where the energy goes.
shamroll wrote: Gork and Mork kind of confuse me. I'm not really sure if they exist. Where did they come from? Did they always exist because the other chaos gods didn't always exist? Were they born like the other chaos gods and why don't the other chaos gods unify against them, like they did against the Emperor, if Gork and Mork are such a threat? I think it's been said that they are asleep and only when the orks completely unify will they awaken. Maybe awaken means born like the other Chaos gods.
They are awake. They aren't particularly interested in ruling the warp/wiping out the other gods/being a dick like the Emperor and the 4 Powers are though.
They are the reflections of the ork collective psyche in the Warp. Big, crude and powerful, not hugely smart, and not really interested in universal domination due to being a species bigot or because of daddy issues.
As to why the chaos gods haven't dealt with them yet
Khorne - can't beat them down. They are unkillable.
Tzeentch - can't blow them up. Same reason.
Slaanesh- can't kill them with pleasure - Orks are asexual and the few things that orks really enjoy just make them stronger.
Nurgle - Can't make them fall to entropy - they are too vital and strong for that.
As to why they haven't killed off the Chaos Gods.
Tzeentch- can't find him...mazes are boring
Nurgle - Would you want to headbutt someone who smells that bad?
Khorne - too much fun as an opponent to kill him off.
Slaanesh - It's bad to hit girls... (ok this is a weak reason..but hey )
AFAIK Gork and Mork have been around for as long as Orks have, as embodiments of their racial conciousness.
It's said that the word for favored enemy and friend mean the exact same thing in the orkish language. Hence Yarrick/Ghazzy and their rivalry of sorts. Yarrick hates Ghazzy, but Ghazzy recognizes him as a once in a lifetime rival, and makes sure to keep him around so he'll always have a proper fight available if he wants it. He's even let Yarrick go, just so he could fight him again.
What's to say that Gork n' Mork love beating up on the chaos gods so much they don't want to kill them, lest they get bored? Sure they can always fight each other, but I'm sure that gets boring after a while
VampireDeLaVega wrote: If all the Warhammer 40k Gods were to do a 1v1 combat with each other, who would be the strongest?
C'tans? Chaos Gods? Eldar Gods? Ork Gods? Hive Mind?
The Nightbringer and Khaine should be out of the picture since there is already prove that they are both weak compared to other gods. Khaine kicking the nightbringer's butt but got beaten up by Slannesh
The most powerful incarnation of the Chaos Gods are the Greater Daemons. They seem by and large to be on par with the old Nightbringer, etc.. . I would assume that a physical manifestation of the Ork Gods would play in the same league.
The old Nightbringer mindraped the galaxy into fearing him as the embodiment of death. It brought fear of death into the galaxy.
Beyond that, a measure of its power can destroy star systems.
Yeah no, a Greater Daemon, the most powerful of their number, would not even be a mildly annoying opponent for the unbridled might of a C'tan (Old fluff anyway).
VampireDeLaVega wrote: If all the Warhammer 40k Gods were to do a 1v1 combat with each other, who would be the strongest?
C'tans? Chaos Gods? Eldar Gods? Ork Gods? Hive Mind?
The Nightbringer and Khaine should be out of the picture since there is already prove that they are both weak compared to other gods. Khaine kicking the nightbringer's butt but got beaten up by Slannesh
Khaine was starved from lack of worship when Slaanesh, who was amplified by the power of the Eldar race and their gods, shattered him.
That Khaine was a pathetic shadow of his true self.
I am not sure if that is the case, Khaine was over whelmed by Slaanesh because Slaneesh had just consumed most of the pantheon of other Eldar Gods and was at his most powerful. I don't think it was down to Khaine being weakened by lack of worship, the Eldar gods don't seem to act the same way as the Chaos Gods do.
In the mortal realm the C'tan are the daddies of them all and it's a testament to Khaine that he managed to go toe to toe with Kaelis Ra.
The void dragon is still sleeping on mars. And wasn't big E nearly killed by a great unclean one during the great crusade? I haven't really read the late 4th/5th edition fluff on Gork and Mork, so I gotta say Khorne.
I always liked the idea of gork and mork being the two of the old ones who created the krork and posed as divine figures to survive the war against the c'tan!
They were described as beings of reptilian patience, wise and so on and so forth.
Gork and Mork are deific hooligans
Now i may have to subscribe to this theory, as it would be fething hilarious that the beings that created the Webway and a whole bunch of races were basically uber-orks
Tzeentch- can't find him...mazes are boring
Nurgle - Would you want to headbutt someone who smells that bad?
Khorne - too much fun as an opponent to kill him off.
Slaanesh - It's bad to hit girls... (ok this is a weak reason..but hey )
Better reason for Slaanesh: S/he just sits there and begs for them to hit em, because s/he's into that sort of thing.
I'm not so sure on Gork and Mork. I would like to see Khorne v Gork and Tzeentch v Mork, as they seem to be focused on the same things. Strength, martial prowess for Gork and Khorne, and trickery and deception for Mork and Tzeentch
Gork and Mork personify orky traits -- just like the Orks say about themselves, the Orks say Gork and Morak are never defeated. But even if they're never defeated, they don't seem to do much. It's like me saying I've never been beaten in a game of horse by Kobe.
If I understand the fluff correctly, that all emotions by life forms actually manifest in the warp, then surely, all of the Gods proper are pretty nails, but it is surely pretty easy to figure out who the toughest is with common sense right?
Like, there will be heaps of rage and lust and excess and plotting and planning, so obviously Khorne and Slaanesh, Tzeentch will be tough thanks to the trillions of sentient creatures that "feed" them. Nurgle, maybe a shade less than the rest? I don't think there is as much pestilence as there is of things wanting to stab/shag each other.
But surely, if Orks outnumber humans, and there are trillions of humans. Gork and Mork must be the toughest... not just because of the sheer numbers, but also because they are so one dimensional! Think of it, human actions top the Gods up.. a murder tops Khorne up, lust tops Slaanesh up, plotting tops Tzeentch up etc.. but humans have a great many positive traits as well.. Things that don't power the Gods up.. stuff like love, friendship, honour and honesty and such.
But the simple fact that Orks are really stupid/one dimensional, means that their Gods must be getting heaps of juice pretty much all the time right?
Grey Templar wrote: The Chaos Gods arn't just gods of negative emotions. They embody positive emotions as well.
Its just that negative emotions are more common then positive emotions.
Tzeentch is the god of Hope.
Nurgle is the god of fatherly caring and is genuinely a nice guy.
Slannesh is the persuit of perfection in all things.
Khorne is the god of martial prowess and honor.
It isn't that they're gods of negative emotions, but they're nonetheless gods of evil. Similar to a faustian deal or "be careful what you wish for" story, the Gods of Chaos will spin positive emotions into something you may not like very much. Trying to achieve perfection, something that is impossible, will drive one insane like Fulgrim. "Grandfather Nurgle" shows his care for you by giving you hideous mutations. Tzeentch's "hope" and ambition may have you climb high places but you'll just end up caught in his convoluted schemes. Khorne's martial prowess will doom you to a life of never-ending war and slaughter.
Lots of people look to Chaos out of despair or not blatantly evil intent, but they still end up doing evil deeds anyway (Quixos comes to mind, even Horus or Magnus). It's a slippery slope. This is why they are the Ruinous Powers, they will ruin you, even if you have positive intentions.
Grey Templar wrote: Of course. They arn't nice gods, they are evil, but they are fed on positive emotions.
And I would wager that if positive emotions eclipsed negative ones the chaos gods would have a 180 degree change in their personalities.
Of course the Evil they have amassed basically keeps that from happening because of their constant medelling.
But was this always the case though, or is this the way they are now, after the Emperor started his conquest of the Galaxy and forced their hand? Like in Monsters Inc, they tried things differently after they found a better way of doing stuff.
The Laer, the Nurthene, the Davinites, the original Cadians, all Chaos Worshippers that, despite some unhealthy pastimes, had established cultures that seemed to not be built around the existing nature of the Chaos Gods, long before the forces of the Emperor got to these worlds.
They may seem to be inane because at the time the Crusade's members weren't aware of the existance of Chaos. So they really wouldn't have seen some things for what they truly were.
Where they would see primative religious fetishes that mean nothing, a person of the 41st millenium would see a plethora of Chaos icons.
Their dismissal of anything super natural blinded them to what they were encountering.
And all the books are done from the perspective of the Crusade's members, so the point of view would be very different to characters from post heresy time periods.
Grey Templar wrote: They may seem to be inane because at the time the Crusade's members weren't aware of the existance of Chaos. So they really wouldn't have seen some things for what they truly were.
Where they would see primative religious fetishes that mean nothing, a person of the 41st millenium would see a plethora of Chaos icons.
Their dismissal of anything super natural blinded them to what they were encountering.
And all the books are done from the perspective of the Crusade's members, so the point of view would be very different to characters from post heresy time periods.
And the Crusade crushed them because they had other beliefs, in most cases at least. The whole concept of warrior lodges came from the Davinites, so regardless of whether they were aware of Chaos or not, they still took note of certain aspects of these cultures.
I don't think having the forces of the Crusade unaware of Chaos wouldn't make the already established Chaos Worlds less aware of it. The world where the Imposter Emperor was killed had elements of Chaos Worship as did the Istvaanians. There's a far bit of evidence that suggests that there were Chaos Cultures established until the Imperium came along and replaced these.
I'm not saying those worlds were less aware of Chaos. Its the crusade(who'se eyes we are seeing things through) that doesn't see what is really there.
The indiginious Cadians would have clearly been a corrupted world in the eyes of an Inquisitor or a Space Marine from the 32nd millenium and onward. But during the crusade they would have just appeared to be superstitious natives and nothing more.
There is no difference in what is being seen, but there is a difference is its interpertation by the viewers.
Chaos wasn't any less Chaosy during the Crusade. Its cultists weren't any more civilized.
It dont matter cause the Void dragon will just kill all the gods but hes just to tired from all the sleeping he has done and hasnt got around to it yet
Chaos wasn't any less Chaosy during the Crusade. Its cultists weren't any more civilized.
I would maybe disagree with you.
There do not appear to be many Chaos established worlds with regular (?) populations in 40k do there? Sure, there are plenty of Daemon Worlds, but nothing to suggest a stable Chaos worshipping populace.
Grey Templar wrote: Of course. They arn't nice gods, they are evil, but they are fed on positive emotions.
And I would wager that if positive emotions eclipsed negative ones the chaos gods would have a 180 degree change in their personalities.
Of course the Evil they have amassed basically keeps that from happening because of their constant medelling.
But are they evil, or do they simply have no idea of what evil and good are, and how mortals understand them? I mean, it's been said a lot by GW that the gods either don't understand the inhabitants of realspace on any level or that they simply have no interest in understanding them. Not to mention that if there's enough of it, even positive emotion starts to get creepy. Say the entire universe gives up self indulgence and debauchery, and concentrated on limited perfectionism instead. Slaanesh would just end up being the god of OCD and have no problem with sending daemons to rip apart those who don't live up to its new standards. And these beings are orders of magnitude larger than the humans and other species of 40k, existing in a completely different dimension. It's like comparing germs to us. No one thinks its evil that we experiment with bacteria, wiping out species that are harmful to us like the gods ensured the death of the Emperor with Horus the antibiotic.
Well, they arn't evil from their perspective. Of course each Chaos God percieves his brothers as evil(as in bad) rivals in the quest for diminance.
To the inhabitants of realspace, sure they are evil. Assuming you think something that is trying to utterly alter realspace in a way that doesn't benifit anyone living there is bad.
Grey Templar wrote: Well, they arn't evil from their perspective. Of course each Chaos God percieves his brothers as evil(as in bad) rivals in the quest for diminance.
To the inhabitants of realspace, sure they are evil. Assuming you think something that is trying to utterly alter realspace in a way that doesn't benifit anyone living there is bad.
That might be their objective now, but I don't think this was always the case. Basically, did the Gods really care how you were worshipping them, or just that you were. As long as they were appeased would there be any need to send around the Daemonettes or was Slaanesh just happy playing with its many nipples whilst you said its name 100 times a day.
Grey Templar wrote: Assuming you think something that is trying to utterly alter realspace in a way that doesn't benifit anyone living there is bad.
That essentially applies to any race in the setting, possibly excepting the Tau.
Yes though, I do see your point. Though Khorne and Slaanesh are probably pretty happy with the way things are. Remember that most of what is done in Chaos' name is done by the gods worshippers, not by the gods themselves. The gods just reward those that give them more ammo to spend in the great game.
The only reason the Emporer didn't defeat Chaos is that he didn't have the trillions of imperial citizens worshiping him at the time of the HH, however I also think that Chaos Gods were weakened by trillions of people beliving that there were no gods.
If the Emporer werent using his energy to keep himself from dying and guiding the Astronomicon, I could see him easily being the most powerful with the backing of the faith of the Imperium in general.
Upon a throne of brass, Khorne sits atop a mountainous dias made of the skulls of his champions and their defeated opponents. Beside him rests a great two-handed sword, capable of laying waste to worlds with a single blow.
He would breathe and everyone would fall down. Simple as that
LOL!!! You think "A single blow" means he "blows" on people?
IIRC Skarbrand isn't a Daemon Prince. Those are wussy mortals with daemonic buffs.
Skarbrand was a fething powerful Bloodthirster if i remember my Daemons codex right. Powerful enough to survive being smacked down by Khorne for his presumption, when Khorne can level a world with a blow. He attacked Khorne all-out with his axes, not a b-slap. The B-slap happened to him in reprisal
What's left of him isn't near as uber, but he's still here
Ascalam wrote: IIRC Skarbrand isn't a Daemon Prince. Those are wussy mortals with daemonic buffs.
Skarbrand was a fething powerful Bloodthirster if i remember my Daemons codex right. Powerful enough to survive being smacked down by Khorne for his presumption, when Khorne can level a world with a blow. He attacked Khorne all-out with his axes, not a b-slap.
Still. A God. Skarbrand shouldn't even have gotten close. Khorne is still an emo-kid who cuts his wrists to get the attention of his betters. (and by betters, I mean everyone. Chaos is a bunch of childish little babies with a chip on their shoulder because the Emperor stole their spotlight.)
No it wasn't, there plan was to take out the greatest threat to their power (Which they did, now the best he can manage is struggling to keep Chaos from flooding the galaxy), and to reassert themselves as the dominant active force in the galaxy.
Chaos incursions into realspace only keep on increasing, every action the Imperium commits is driven by their struggle against Chaos, the Imperium are fighting a hopeless war, and Chaos knows it.
Void__Dragon wrote: No it wasn't, there plan was to take out the greatest threat to their power (Which they did, now the best he can manage is struggling to keep Chaos from flooding the galaxy), and to reassert themselves as the dominant active force in the galaxy.
Chaos incursions into realspace only keep on increasing, every action the Imperium commits is driven by their struggle against Chaos, the Imperium are fighting a hopeless war, and Chaos knows it.
It's hopeless only because they're also fighting the Elves, Dark Elves, Orks, Tau, Tyranids and Necron, AS WELL AS chaos.
Evil for the sake of Evil is inherently childish.
Gork and Mork would have stomped on everyone, if that hadn't meant the orks didn't have anyone else to fight.
SgtSixkilla wrote: It's hopeless only because they're also fighting the Elves, Dark Elves, Orks, Tau, Tyranids and Necron, AS WELL AS chaos.
Every race is an enemy to Chaos at any time, Chaos is the greatest current threat to the Imperium, largely due to being a darker reflection of humanity, and life itself. This is a consistent fact of the setting, no matter what you may think.
Evil for the sake of Evil is inherently childish.
Do you have a point here, or are you just venting?
The original motivations for any given Chaos cultist can vary wildly.
Also, the Chaos Gods themselves are not necessarily "evil for the sake of evil". Tzeentch is change, be it moral change or immoral change is irrelevant, just that there is change. Nurgle sees the universe through a twisted lens, he genuinely loves life, all life, and delivers his horrifying plagues as a gift. Khorne is pretty childish these days, sadly, being a big fat kid who would be just as happy with you killing a grox as he would be happy with you killing an enemy warrior. Slaanesh is Slaanesh.
Gork and Mork would have stomped on everyone, if that hadn't meant the orks didn't have anyone else to fight.
I vote Tzeentch. Any conflict engaged with that monster is a swift invitation to doom - He knows every possible move before his opponent does and has 10^10^10^10^10^10...^10... plans to utilize at any point of the galaxy - all of which have been coiling and building for almost all eternity. I mean really, the only reason why Tzeentch would be in open conflict in the first place is if he wanted to, and it'd likely be for some other purpose (like having his brother's get a beatdown, Mork accidentally stabbing Gork, or the Nightbringer going toe to toe with the Void Dragon.)
Still. A God. Skarbrand shouldn't even have gotten close. Khorne is still an emo-kid who cuts his wrists to get the attention of his betters. (and by betters, I mean everyone. Chaos is a bunch of childish little babies with a chip on their shoulder because the Emperor stole their spotlight.)
If you hit Gork (or possibly Mork) it would simply make him stronger, even if it was a godly blow. Any other god would be weakened, even if only slightly, because Khorne is strengthened by death rather than war, and IIRC Khaine wasn't strengthened by war, but more by the anger of the Eldar. The reason he was defeated was because the Eldar were despairing instead of being angry, and that emotion fed She Who Thirsts.
Gork struggled towards awareness. He sensed other Powers in the warp trying to interfere. He blocked a suble tendril from Slaanesh, ignored a baleful warning from the Emperor, discounted the triumphant cry of Khorne...Gork and Mork stirred and a wave of fear passed through the warp. On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened his eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries.
Gork holds the Khorne god in a full nelson. Mork stabs him repeatedly in the stomach until he i split into two. Then they both go about thier day whatever they dam well please....Thats how I see it. You don't get one without the other.
'On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.'
'On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.
Struggled, eh? Apparently, it;s elaborated more on in one of the newer works. Something about the Emperor being separated from everyone else, killing lots of Orks single-handedly and eventually getting hit by a plasma blast (these Orks being very good with plasma technology apparently) and the Ork Warboss taking advantage of this. Considering the Orks apparently had boyz that were often larger than Dreadnoughts, the number of Orks and the corresponding Waaagh! field would have been phenomenal.
Gork struggled towards awareness. He sensed other Powers in the warp trying to interfere. He blocked a suble tendril from Slaanesh, ignored a baleful warning from the Emperor, discounted the triumphant cry of Khorne...Gork and Mork stirred and a wave of fear passed through the warp. On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened his eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries.
'On the Ork-infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge, frenzied Greenskin warlord as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him.
Struggled, eh? Apparently, it;s elaborated more on in one of the newer works. Something about the Emperor being separated from everyone else, killing lots of Orks single-handedly and eventually getting hit by a plasma blast (these Orks being very good with plasma technology apparently) and the Ork Warboss taking advantage of this. Considering the Orks apparently had boyz that were often larger than Dreadnoughts, the number of Orks and the corresponding Waaagh! field would have been phenomenal.
I think you might be mixing your battles up there.
Horus gets downed by a Plasma blast, and Big E stands over him to defend him, but IIRC that was a different fight.
The fact that the Emperor (supposedly a god) got throat-grabbed and put in dire straignts by a mortal at all, given that he supposedly shoots lightning from his eyes and fireballs from his arse, shows he's not all that..godwise.
If he was really all that godly-uber the Ork would have disintegrated just by being in contact with him, if all the IOM fluff about E can be taken seriously. Not that anyone should really take any 40K stuff that seriously...
Ascalam wrote: The fact that the Emperor (supposedly a god) got throat-grabbed and put in dire straignts by a mortal at all, given that he supposedly shoots lightning from his eyes and fireballs from his arse, shows he's not all that..godwise.
He was mortally wounded only because he was holding back to try to convince Horus to stop the rebellion, IIRC. IF he hadn't been holding back, he could have killed Horus in one hit. After he was injured, that's exactly what he did.
He was mortally wounded only because he was holding back to try to convince Horus to stop the rebellion, IIRC. IF he hadn't been holding back, he could have killed Horus in one hit. After he was injured, that's exactly what he did.
Still makes him a spineless, indecisive and emotional failure in my eyes. Hardly godlike.
But I suppose this thread is about powerlevels and not strength of character so….
Actually that shows that he actually HAS a spine (he is willing to put his life on the line in order to turn his son back to his side), is decisive (he does exactly that), and actually has emotions other than "GRR I HATE YOU" (he still loves his son and wants the best for him, even after all that's happened).
But I guess you would call parental love "emotional failure" or something.
I guess you could also say he was more arrogant than he was weak.
But I still think that when the fate of the entire human race is at stake someone of his stature and power would be able to assess the situation more clearly and not latch on to silly emotional attachments. The guy has literally seen billions of people die during his life time and has always fought to preserve mankind as a whole.
Putting it all at risk because he liked one single person so much just doesn't seem very strongwilled to me.
Ascalam wrote: The fact that the Emperor (supposedly a god) got throat-grabbed and put in dire straignts by a mortal at all, given that he supposedly shoots lightning from his eyes and fireballs from his arse, shows he's not all that..godwise.
He was mortally wounded only because he was holding back to try to convince Horus to stop the rebellion, IIRC. IF he hadn't been holding back, he could have killed Horus in one hit. After he was injured, that's exactly what he did.
Erm... was i talking about Horus? Not that I recall.
I was talking about him being put in a chokehold on Gorro by an ork Warboss.
If you are going to quote me, please make sure i'm actually talking about the same thing you are.
On the Horus / Emperor battle it depends on which account you read. The more recent ones have been leaning towards the auto-win. The older ones had it as being a rough fight all round, which is a lot less Fanspanky to me. IIRC the original story had the Emperor take a desperate gamble with the last of his life force to kill Horus as he was dying.
If he was so unwilling to kill Horus and so much more powerful than him in every way, why didn't he just freeze him in time, or paralyse him. Why didn't he just plain ignore Horus's attemptedf ass-kicking instead of being mortally wounded by it.
Popenfresh wrote: I guess you could also say he was more arrogant than he was weak.
On that, I certainly agree.
Keep in mind that there is no such thing as an omnipotent, omniscient god in the 40k universe, as far as we know. The Emperor himself was strong enough to threaten the destruction of the dark gods with the psychic lance that killed Horus, and they really aren't anything more than a collection of emotions given sentience.
But I still vote for Gork and Mork because are pretty much described as invulnerable to harm.
The fact that blackfang put the big E in a sleeper hold is proof that gork and more > all.
However in the emperors defence gargal black fang is described as the second biggest ork in history (the beast is #1).
He was supposed to have been 3 times bigger then ghazgkull Thraka. And yes the emp was all on his lonesome in hand to hand combat with dreadnought sized nobs and black fang and it was only once his concentration / phsycic barrier / armor was chinked (what ever you want to go with) that he was pinned. Which ofcourse led to Horus (who had a knack for killing big orks.. *cough* decapitated the beast *cough*) chopping off his arms and insert happy ending here.
Ascalam wrote: The fact that the Emperor (supposedly a god) got throat-grabbed and put in dire straignts by a mortal at all, given that he supposedly shoots lightning from his eyes and fireballs from his arse, shows he's not all that..godwise.
Point out where the Ork actually put the Emperor in any real danger.
I can struggle while trying to push a mountain. That doesn't mean I bested it.
Show me where in the fluff it says that E just stood there, letting the Ork choke him, to no effect. I must have missed that bit
I said he grabbed him and had him in dire straits (which you are in if someone is choking you during a fight).
He was throttling the Emperor. You don't generally get throttled if you are cakewalking the oppositon. Generally you are on the losing side of the fight, as a properly applied choking can put you down hard in seconds, and it's not a position someone winning the fight would find themselves in. Even if you were winning the fight, being choked can ruin your day quite handily.
The fact that Horus had to step up to help, rather than the Emperor just teleporting out of the choke or disintegrating the ork is telling, but no sense trying to get an IOM fanboy to accept that the Emperor was mortal, and could actually take a few hits without it being him allowing them to beat him down, is there
It's not like the Emperor made a habit of just standing there and letting the enemy try to kill him un-opposed, like mountain example.
You can struggle while pushing a big-ass rock up a hill, with a fair or better chance of it rolling back and hurting you Doesn't mean you can't best it
All the quote says is that the Ork struggled to choke the Emperor, and Horus cut his head off.
IOM fanboy? I'm sure my Magnus the Red avatar tipped you off on that. I'm afraid I'm just someone who uses sense and reason when posting and actually looks at what the writing says.
And you're arguing from ignorance. Recent evidence made it clear that the Emperor was weary from bulldozing through thousands of Orks (Many of their number the size of a dreadnought) and taking plasma to the face (Said plasma weapons are more powerful than anything seen before or since in terms of plasma weaponry, which would seem to put their yield above a Deathstrike Missile, incredibly), which only momentarily stunned him. The Warlord took it upon himself to use that distraction to try to choke the Emperor, and buckled his armour, but that's all it managed before Horus cut its arms off. Speculating on any further damange or how the Emperor would respond is baseless.
You take your take on the event, and i'll take mine.
If we interpret them differently, then there's not much point arguing it out, especially over something as whacked as GW fluff.
Apologies if i get a little heated. I just get a bit tired of the Emperor-uber-alles fluff, and people claiming that he was un-fething-hurtable unless he willed it to be so.
Lot of IOM-centric fluff-lawyers locally, and they are way to fond of emphasising the bat-crap crazy uber SM/Big E fluff, and downplaying or flat denying the rest.
Bad-ass superhuman, but still essentially flesh and blood.
Most of the folks i wind up bringing up the healing-knight-titans by-touch or single-handedly owning whole waaaaghs fluff.
I love 40K, but the one thing that really riles me (and it's been getting worse the last decade) is the share of awesome. IOM (mainly SM and the Emperor) gets almost all of it, while everyone else is punching bags or armour paint.
Apologies again for going off on you. I've been at a tournament all day where i was the only Xeno player, and they all insist on talking fluff all game while we play.
I point out that when the Emperor fought a more "legit" god that he couldn't combat on the spiritual or mental plane (The Void Dragon), he struggled much more than he does against purely Warp beings.
Anyone else thinks it's odd the IOM is always made out to be in awful shape, hopelessly beset from all sides?
But then we see that anything Chaos /the Xeno's can throw at them is simply cakewalked over.
- Empy was capable of killing all 4 chaos gods simply as collateral damage.
- He also beat the biggest baddest C'tan in existence into being his pet.
- Primarchs and chapter masters beating the crap out of avatars left and right.
- Space marines soloing Waaaghs
How are we supposed to believe the IOM is under threat from anything at all? Everyone of their heroes is beyond Godlike, capable of curbstomping the enemy's worst.
In fact, their worst threat is their own troops gone rogue….
Am I making too much out of something which is simply GW favouritism? Or is the IOM really filled with nothing but demigods?
I think you might be mixing your battles up there.
Horus gets downed by a Plasma blast, and Big E stands over him to defend him, but IIRC that was a different fight.
I'm just passing on information people have gotten from (I think) the new Forgeworld? book.
Popenfresh wrote:But I still think that when the fate of the entire human race is at stake someone of his stature and power would be able to assess the situation more clearly and not latch on to silly emotional attachments. The guy has literally seen billions of people die during his life time and has always fought to preserve mankind as a whole.
I think the whole point was that it wasn't a conscious decision to hold back.
[quote=]Primarchs and chapter masters beating the crap out of avatars left and right.
Fulgrim was weakened in his fight with the Avatar, and more to the point was a Primarch. They're supposed to be capable of taking on the vast majority of creatures that can be thrown at them. The problem is, they've all either died, disappeared on turned traitor, so they're no longer worth much to the Imperium other than as symbols. As for Calgar defeating a Avatar, that exhausted (as I recall he passed out after the fight) him, and I'd imagine that if he didn't have those fancy formerly-Chaos-owned power fists which no-one (according to Lexicanum, so take that as you will) has been able penetrate that his gambit would've ended up with him being hewn in two. Much worse was the way the Eldar were depicted in that battle as whole. As for your comment about a single Marine taking on an entire Waaagh!, I'd like to see your source for that. Sounds like the thing with Calgar holding a gate for a day and night, but that's something completely different.
As for treacherous humans being the Imperium's greatest threat, that's the whole point. Humanity's greatest danger is itself. It has the power to destroy its opponents or itself. Chaos only has such power in the Materium because of those who embrace it. The Imperium crumbles from within and from without, but it's always been itself that is its greatest foe.
Popenfresh wrote: Anyone else thinks it's odd the IOM is always made out to be in awful shape, hopelessly beset from all sides?
But then we see that anything Chaos /the Xeno's can throw at them is simply cakewalked over.
- Empy was capable of killing all 4 chaos gods simply as collateral damage.
- He also beat the biggest baddest C'tan in existence into being his pet.
- Primarchs and chapter masters beating the crap out of avatars left and right.
- Space marines soloing Waaaghs
How are we supposed to believe the IOM is under threat from anything at all? Everyone of their heroes is beyond Godlike, capable of curbstomping the enemy's worst.
In fact, their worst threat is their own troops gone rogue….
Am I making too much out of something which is simply GW favouritism? Or is the IOM really filled with nothing but demigods?
This is the problem that comes from half of the codices in the game coming from the Imperium. Though since the Emperor is essentially dead are the primarchs are gone, the Imperium is decaying. Also, consider the scale of the galaxy the Imperium is in. Their heroes are few and far between, and they're losing as many battles as they win, it's just that no one writes about the losses. If you consider the fluff in the codices to be legends attributed to the heroes in question by their fans, I guess that would make them more reasonable as well.
Popenfresh wrote:- Empy was capable of killing all 4 chaos gods simply as collateral damage.
- He also beat the biggest baddest C'tan in existence into being his pet.
But he's basically dead, so he's not really contributing a huge amount to the Imperium's safety beyond being a psychic lighthouse and an idol.
- Primarchs and chapter masters beating the crap out of avatars left and right.
Cross reference a single Craftworld wiping out an entire sector's fleet. It's not unbelievable that a hardened chapter master could knock out a (already wounded, if you're talking about the Calgar fluff) Avatar with a power fist. Primarchs even less so.
- Space marines soloing Waaaghs
I assume you mean a single chapter, right? Which would be fair enough, there aren't that many of them about. Unless you're refering to the Space Marine game, which we could probably dismiss quite easily. The games have always sacrificed fluff veracity for fun - as well they should.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: I think the whole point was that it wasn't a conscious decision to hold back.
Oooh, I hadn't thought of that. I suppose that explains it quite nicely. Silly me.
They're supposed to be capable of taking on the vast majority of creatures that can be thrown at them.
Not just the vast majority, nothing and I mean nothing in the universe could go toe to toe with the Primarchs. So the only plausible enemy you could come up with was themselves. It just makes every other race utterly irrelevant.
In fact, from a different point of view it's even more ridiculously OP. It means that even if you distil and water down Empy's/the Primarch's DNA a million times you still get warriors far superior to anything the enemy has.
As for treacherous humans being the Imperium's greatest threat, that's the whole point. Humanity's greatest danger is itself. It has the power to destroy its opponents or itself. Chaos only has such power in the Materium because of those who embrace it. The Imperium crumbles from within and from without, but it's always been itself that is its greatest foe.
I would agree if it was full-scale rebellion and disparity.
But as it stands now rebellions and demon incursions outside of the Eye are handled by the Imperium with the ease of squashing a bug. A couple of Grey Knights or normal space marines take care of those on a daily basis between breakfast and brunch.
It's nowhere near falling apart into little bits, the Ecclesiarchy makes sure of that. The biggest threat are the renegade space marines and their Primarchs attacking out of the Eye, ergo the remnants of the HH, not the risk of the Imperium crumbling from within.
Not just the vast majority, nothing and I mean nothing in the universe could go toe to toe with the Primarchs. So the only plausible enemy you could come up with was themselves. It just makes every other race utterly irrelevant.
....
I think your attachment to the imperium blinds you. Just take a look at what happened on Signus Prime. A bloodthirster broke both of Sanguinius' legs with one crack of his whip and then released a shriek of psychic energy that killed 500 blood angels, making Sanguinius pass out from the psychic shock.
I realize that the bloodthirster was then killed by Sanguinius on the siege of Terra, but it just makes me think that if a bloodthirster could do this, the primarchs aren't as unbeatable as you seem to think.
First. There are billions upon billions of humans, a decent percentage of whom are in the Imperial Guard. Still the IoM is balancing on a knife edge of defeat. Most wars won by the imperial guard is won by pouring guardsmen at the enemy in their tens of thousands. I've hardly read any IG centered novels where it's not an underlying theme that the imperium is slowly running out of fighting bodies.
Second. Space Marines are the greatest warriors the universe has seen. Trouble is that there are a few hundred thousand of them, and they're slowly getting fewer.
Third. The Primarchs were Demi-Gods. It says so in every book they're featured in. Of course they're going to kick butt. Who else was a Demi-God? Hercules. He kicked butt too, and he couldn't be killed. I also seem to remember that the Primarchs all either died or became daemons.
If you don't like your Xenos butt getting kicked in the fluff by the IoM then you probably shouldn't get into 40k in the first place.
My beef is with how we're supposed to believe the Imperium is under any kind of threat when you have space marines roflstomping everyone.
I haven't read any of the horrid BL novels but maybe the guard stuff is more interesting. Either way, everyone knows that when a Xenos needs to shine GW has them slaughter a regiment of IG, hardly a loss. And that was my original point, we're told the IoM is in decline but we never get to actually see any of it.
To your second point, whether or not there are "many" space marines is irrelevant since they always show up when it really matters. The overwhelming majority of IoM fluff is about space marines even though they constitute less than a percentage of its population.
Also who says they're shrinking in numbers? Or are you refering to their geneseeds degenerating?
Third, did I ever ague otherwise? What's your point exactly?
I love it when xenos get their butts handed to them. With the exception of orks, all the xenos species are pansies.
Space marines don't always win, but the only battles worth reading about are the ones where they do. Of course we mostly hear about battles where IoM wins. They're humans, we're humans. We can't expect to understand an Eldar society, for example. They're an immortal alien species, how can we possibly relate to that? And as for tyranids, the problem just increases. It's an alien hive mind. We wouldn't even know where to begin, in order to understand how it works. Also, how can an author write an engaging novel about a hive mind which exists only to digest bio-mass?
How do you know BL novels are horrid if you haven't read any of it. It's like saying you don't like a movie you haven't seen. I'm tempted to call that stupid, but I'd just get a warning.
How do you know that the IoM is on the decline? You've read it somewhere, yes? So it is written somewhere. Also, if you haven't read any of the "horrid BL novels" how do you know that there's no indication there that the IoM is on the decline? It's like saying that you haven't read any scientific papers, but you still know that there are no scientific papers that concludes that climate change is happening. Again. I'd say that was stupid, but I won't.
Who says the number of Space Marines is declining? Well, there's no more geneseed being produced. Only way to create a new Marine is to take the progenoid gland from one, and inserting it into a normal human. That's okay as long as they can harvest the progenoid glands from ALL Marines who die. But they can't do that, because some of them are eaten by 'nids, some are blown up, some fall into volcanoes, some get thrown into the void when their ship blows up, some are lost in the warp. None of these can be harvested, so all of these cases represents one less Space Marine.
I just want to read a BL book where it is an ork view. I know thats unlikely, but I just wish to read an ork victory? Couldnt care less for all the other xenos really. cept for nids
Nearest Xenos get to a victory in BL is that they land, feht over a world, then the SM show up and they lose/are driven back etc.
Even unconditional Xeno wins have a habit of getting rewritten, or not getting to be written as novels.
Battles the SM/IG LOSE don't sell well, because upwards of half the playerbase play IOm in some capacity.
*shrug*
Nature of the beast really. Bolterporn sells. Splinterporn might, so a select market. Sluggaporn wouldn't.
Frankly i'm amazed that the Space Marine game showed Orks as well as it did, considering. Sure, you get to wade through them, but those Nobs are actually threatening.
the Bomb Squigs are now feared by my local FLGS, as they are all big into the video game. They still aren't great in-game, but folk will go to any length to kill those Tankbustas off before they can let them off the leash
How do you know BL novels are horrid if you haven't read any of it. It's like saying you don't like a movie you haven't seen. I'm tempted to call that stupid, but I'd just get a warning.
I've heard from people who have pretty similar literary tastes they're not worth the read. You can call not wanting to read through something you're not likely to enjoy stupid for all I care.
How do you know that the IoM is on the decline? You've read it somewhere, yes? So it is written somewhere. Also, if you haven't read any of the "horrid BL novels" how do you know that there's no indication there that the IoM is on the decline? It's like saying that you haven't read any scientific papers, but you still know that there are no scientific papers that concludes that climate change is happening. Again. I'd say that was stupid, but I won't.
Or you know, I might've read White Dwarf, Codices, rulebooks… I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. Heck, you yourself said they're running out of fighting bodies and balancing on the edge of defeat. Inconsistent much?
Third, who says I replied to you?
Given the layout of your post, which was mostly a responds so my earlier posts, making your third consecutive point a reply to some else's post would render it pretty illegible. Was it stupid to expect a cohesive answer too you think?
But hey, you're allowed to make your posts as scrawled as you like for my part.
Who says the number of Space Marines is declining? Well, there's no more geneseed being produced. Only way to create a new Marine is to take the progenoid gland from one, and inserting it into a normal human. That's okay as long as they can harvest the progenoid glands from ALL Marines who die. But they can't do that, because some of them are eaten by 'nids, some are blown up, some fall into volcanoes, some get thrown into the void when their ship blows up, some are lost in the warp. None of these can be harvested, so all of these cases represents one less Space Marine.
Last time I checked, geneseeds were still reproducible, albeit very time consuming. You could recreate an entire chapter out of a single marine given enough time. The Adeptus Mechanicus uses thousands of test-slaves to grow and harvest new seeds to found new chapters all the time. The only restraint is the codex astartes.
Anyway, I've derailed this thread enough as it is.
Well since all chaos gods are on an even par with each other in some way weather its strength, speed, toughness, or magic all chaos gods are equal that's why they haven't killed each other yet, however; Slaannesh for a small amount of time at least was on a power high which allowed him to kill all of the eldar gods, yet even then Khain was almost able to kill him which I think shows that he was on par with all other chaos gods. Although i think think that the strongest god will be Ynnead, that is when he is born at least, for he is the eldar god of death and is destined to kill Slaanesh, or thats what the eldar codex says at least. But if this is true his abilaty to kill a chaos god would make him stronger than all other gods
Gork and Mork are definitely strongest. Here's some reasons why
1. Gods get strength from worship and deeds and orks outnumber humans and all of them believe in Gork and Mork
2. Orks are more psychic than humans
3. Gork and Mork are older than the Chaos gods.
Personally, I vote Tzeentch. He lays plans with plans, within plans.etc... until there is web of conspiracies that no one can unravel. "If knowledge is power, then to be unknown is to be unconquerable"
CourageAndHonor wrote: I'm gonna say Khorne because if you put a bloodletter and an orkboy in a one-on-one match, bloddletter would win every time.
.... Ummm... Bloodletters are made by the power of khorne. ork boyz are mortals. Its like saying bloodletter agaisnt gaurdsman. slaughter. or cultitst against ork... slaughter. Its not about the quality of the gods followers in combat. Its about the number of followers that gods and how much they believe in that god. Now then some cultists might turn away from the chaos gods to save their skins but an every day ork boy would never turn from Gork and Mork. Thier fatacism makes space marines look bad.
I've heard from people who have pretty similar literary tastes they're not worth the read. You can call not wanting to read through something you're not likely to enjoy stupid for all I care.
Not wanting to read it is one thing. Saying that you know it's horrible when you haven't read it is another. No matter how many people you've heard it from. For example, when working at a bookstore, I heard from literally dozens of people that Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code" was a great read. I read it, and found that I didn't think so.
Or to quote somebody (probably the internet): "800 billion flies can't be wrong, eat sh*t."
Or you know, I might've read White Dwarf, Codices, rulebooks… I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. Heck, you yourself said they're running out of fighting bodies and balancing on the edge of defeat. Inconsistent much?
How is this inconsistent? I know the imperium is failing. I've read about it in countless BL novels.
Last time I checked, geneseeds were still reproducible, albeit very time consuming. You could recreate an entire chapter out of a single marine given enough time. The Adeptus Mechanicus uses thousands of test-slaves to grow and harvest new seeds to found new chapters all the time. The only restraint is the codex astartes.
The creation of the Space Marines were the Emperor's second greatest achievement, after the creation of the Primarchs. It's a technology not understood by anyone else. Why? Because it's heresy to mess about with the geneseed. Even for other space marines. This at least according to the HH novels and a few other novels not of the HH series. If you've read otherwise, please tell me where you read it, I'd very much like to know.
thisisnotpancho wrote: I think your attachment to the imperium blinds you. Just take a look at what happened on Signus Prime. A bloodthirster broke both of Sanguinius' legs with one crack of his whip and then released a shriek of psychic energy that killed 500 blood angels, making Sanguinius pass out from the psychic shock.
I realize that the bloodthirster was then killed by Sanguinius on the siege of Terra, but it just makes me think that if a bloodthirster could do this, the primarchs aren't as unbeatable as you seem to think.
Food for thought.
This fluff is not only misleading, but sort of outdated.
First of all, that "bloodthirster" was Ka'Bhanda, whom is the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters (Only An'ggrath the Unbound can contest this position, and both have been beaten by Primarchs). He isn't a standard Bloodthirster.
Second, according to Fear to Tread, even after having his legs broken and suffering from the psychic death screams of his sons, Sanguinius managed to beat Ka'Bhanda, and went on to decapitate a Slaaneshi Greater Daemon soon after.
SgtSixkilla wrote: Not wanting to read it is one thing. Saying that you know it's horrible when you haven't read it is another. No matter how many people you've heard it from. For example, when working at a bookstore, I heard from literally dozens of people that Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code" was a great read. I read it, and found that I didn't think so.
Or to quote somebody (probably the internet): "800 billion flies can't be wrong, eat sh*t."
Meh, fair enough.
The creation of the Space Marines were the Emperor's second greatest achievement, after the creation of the Primarchs. It's a technology not understood by anyone else. Why? Because it's heresy to mess about with the geneseed. Even for other space marines. This at least according to the HH novels and a few other novels not of the HH series. If you've read otherwise, please tell me where you read it, I'd very much like to know.
I was getting this from the 2nd - 5th edition space marine codices and the nr. 248 White Dwarf article "Index Astartes, Rites of Initiation".
It's probably pretty outdated compared to the HH novels but, personally, I've been trying to ignore much of the recent fluff chances.
ENOZONE wrote: I vote Tzeentch. Any conflict engaged with that monster is a swift invitation to doom - He knows every possible move before his opponent does and has 10^10^10^10^10^10...^10... plans to utilize at any point of the galaxy - all of which have been coiling and building for almost all eternity. I mean really, the only reason why Tzeentch would be in open conflict in the first place is if he wanted to, and it'd likely be for some other purpose (like having his brother's get a beatdown, Mork accidentally stabbing Gork, or the Nightbringer going toe to toe with the Void Dragon.)
It would take a being of such tactical geni .... CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!
Gork and Mork aren't older than the chaos gods. They were made by the Orcs and the Orcs being made by the old ones aren't that old, i mean they were only made to fight the necrons and the eldar were made earlier than they were, so Gork and Mork are by no means old. The chaos god have been around for a much longer time, except for Slaanesh hes younger then the Orcs. But it is true that the orc gods are some of the strongest yet I think Khron would be the most powerful, in combat, since hes had many hundreds of thousands of years of worship. Plus the emotions that feed him anger and rage are some of the most powerful I can think of.
The Chaos Gods are younger than the Ork race, Chaos didn't even exist until after the Old Ones created the Orks for the War in Heaven, which spawned Chaos.
Eldrad wrote: Gork and Mork aren't older than the chaos gods. They were made by the Orcs and the Orcs being made by the old ones aren't that old, i mean they were only made to fight the necrons and the eldar were made earlier than they were, so Gork and Mork are by no means old. The chaos god have been around for a much longer time, except for Slaanesh hes younger then the Orcs. But it is true that the orc gods are some of the strongest yet I think Khron would be the most powerful, in combat, since hes had many hundreds of thousands of years of worship. Plus the emotions that feed him anger and rage are some of the most powerful I can think of.
First off, orks where made in the war in heaven. This is with the eldar. Once they started to use the eldar and orks more often in the battles this started to send tidal waves of bad energy through the warp, now then the warp already had creatures living in it, but the bad energy started to corrupt them. This is where Enslavers and such came out of the warp and attacked all the races. Daemons where not even made then I believe. Daemons are creations of a chaos god so they couldnt be there cause the gods weren't there yet. Khorne is supposedly borne around Earths middle ages. Gork and Mork where around long before then. Also Gork and Mork are the gods of the WAAAAAAAAGGHH!!! and all orks participate in WAAAAAAAGGGHHS!!! Plus Orks are the most numerous, individually sentient, awake, race in the galaxy, and almost all orks worship Gork and Mork. Means even more power to them. No matter how you look at it they are indeed the strongest, out of all the gods.
I guess you could also say he was more arrogant than he was weak.
But I still think that when the fate of the entire human race is at stake someone of his stature and power would be able to assess the situation more clearly and not latch on to silly emotional attachments. The guy has literally seen billions of people die during his life time and has always fought to preserve mankind as a whole.
Putting it all at risk because he liked one single person so much just doesn't seem very strongwilled to me.
Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.
Anyway onto the topic in question I would like all other sane people here give my vote to Gork n' Mork as well. As far as why these behemoths haven't taken over the warp is very simple and shocks me that no one has said this yet. Gork and mork don't wipe out the 4 chaos gods for a very simple reason because 9 times out of 10 they are fighting the best fight ever ... themselves. Why fight Khorne when you can fight someone biggah, and strongah!? Why face Nurgle when you can decapitate your enemy and he'll pick up his head and snap it back into place? Why face Tzeeentch when within the swirling chaos of the warp Mork's traps and tricks can stop even the mighty Gork dead in his warpath, and why face slaneesh when your enemy is your exact equal?
Gork n Mork smile and blessed Ghazzy according to his delusional fluff (which i completely support!). And because of this crazed mentality he has become so amazing within 40k, an icon of fear to all races where no army would willingly accept Ghazzy's anger instead they just hope he attacks someone else. True may terra could wipe him off the face of the earth, the nids could devoure his warbands or the Necron could exterminate them all but I know that the process will not be swift, will not be efficient nor will it be military strength well spent. It will galvanize the orks to replace him and with each slain master the desire for WAAAGH continues to grow more and more producing harder and more killy bossess with each generation.
GORK and MORK simply represent the bravado of the ork race, being the most numerous intelligent race within 40k (if you make the nid argument it's still valid cause the vast majority of nids are smart as a special needs panda ) take these two disturbing factors and combine them into the largest belief within the galaxy so it should be obvious who wins. demons might feed on an orks desire for waaagh but so pure is that mindless desire it never matures into the passionate madness of a human with delectable hints of rationalization, muttering, guilt, and fear. Instead the humble ork only wants one thing other than to crack a joke, and that is to be ... ORKY
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.
You're using logic that applies to normal people like you and me to a demigod. You'd think a being of such unimaginable power like the Emperor would be able to overcome emo bullsh*t like that.
And it's not as clear cut as having reservations about killing one of your sons.
You either:
A: try to redeem one person you have a personal attachment to risking the lives of every other human in existence.
Or
B: kill him straight out ensuring the future of mankind.
With stakes this high at risk such a choice should be rather simple for a being as wise and powerful as the Emperor.
So yeah, I remain unconvinced, in my eyes he's spineless weakling who should take a page out of the Krieg corps's book.
Then again I am a drama-wh*re so I suppose I like this version too.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.
You're using logic that applies to normal people like you and me to a demigod. You'd think a being of such unimaginable power like the Emperor would be able to overcome emo bullsh*t like that.
And it's not as clear cut as having reservations about killing one of your sons.
You either:
A: try to redeem one person you have a personal attachment to risking the lives of every other human in existence.
Or
B: kill him straight out ensuring the future of mankind.
With stakes this high at risk such a choice should be rather simple for a being as wise and powerful as the Emperor.
So yeah, I remain unconvinced, in my eyes he's spineless weakling who should take a page out of the Krieg corps's book.
Then again I am a drama-wh*re so I suppose I like this version too.
Watch the language please.
Reds8n
And if the emperor is a spineless weakling, what does that say about Chaos who are not able to kill him?
And if the emperor is a spineless weakling, what does that say about Chaos who are not able to kill him?
Horus was busy killing billions of people, was after Empy's life and he was stilling willing to sway him over? If he didn't realise Horus was beyond redemption at this point it's just an other sign of his incredible idiocy. The more I think about it the more pants-on-head-ret*rded Empy looks. If you found out your son is a psychopathic murderer you'd rather try to talk him out of it through a cosy father-son discussion instead of calling the authorities? It appears you're the one with the upside down values here. There are other values out there besides family bonds ya know.
So yeah, for someone who's the closest thing we have to an omnipotent God yeah he comes off as very spineless. The IoM has plenty of heroes who didn't let their emotional attachments get in the way of what needed to be done and they did so when there was far less at stake.
As to the powers of chaos, I'm talking about strength of character here not physical strength. I though that was pretty damn obvious from the start. Now that I think of it, Chaos did a bang up job, they didn't even need to be more powerful than him in order to eff Empy up. This just shows that physical strength/power means nothing if you're too dumb/spineless to get the job done.
I honestly don't understand how you can defend his indecisiveness.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.
You're using logic that applies to normal people like you and me to a demigod. You'd think a being of such unimaginable power like the Emperor would be able to overcome emo bullsh*t like that.
And it's not as clear cut as having reservations about killing one of your sons.
You either:
A: try to redeem one person you have a personal attachment to risking the lives of every other human in existence.
Or
B: kill him straight out ensuring the future of mankind.
With stakes this high at risk such a choice should be rather simple for a being as wise and powerful as the Emperor.
So yeah, I remain unconvinced, in my eyes he's spineless weakling who should take a page out of the Krieg corps's book.
Then again I am a drama-wh*re so I suppose I like this version too.
Hmmm see i think you don't realize how much emotion pans into the situation. The Horus Heresy is suppose to be a analogy of what blind faith and listening to outside influences wroughts upon us all. The Once loyal chapters of space marines are clearly an annotative link towards military powers once proud and trusted by their empires turned to just a slightly lesser authority to indulge impulses that are gratifying to them. For example the urge to kill, to have sex, to plot to kill or to smother the fear of death (i used an example for every chaos god there).
Horus represents corruption of the system, someone who should have been the strongest guarded against such forces, Sadly we know the tale that one bad apple ruins the bunch. HOWEVER, emotion does play into the Horus heresy because when your empire is falling apart you are far from collected, when your own soliders have spent a solid week bombarding your golden throne with titans to make a crack large enough to properly invade you are no longer are thinking about the future of the human race. To you the battle is on your doorstep and you are trapped upon your very fortress world unable to escape due to the tricks of your own soldiers yet again.
The point of all of this is your A or B situation ONLY applies to a cold and rational soul who isn't wielding the powers of a god. You say that power will make you more composed and able to make decisions for the greater good easier than oppose to being weak. I actually disagree vehemently here. Look to all historical positions of power, have you known one which hasn't given into temptations or madness in some form? the United State military just had a high scale military general admit to extramarital affairs in our current "logical thinking" military.
too often we forget that man is an animal and despite the power and majesty of an animal or the size of it's race it no longer is not capable of absolute perfection in all things or in any respect for that matter. A judge can cry or make mistakes, a Police officer can arrest the wrong person, and religious advisers can condemn those they resemble. Emotion is something we cannot suppress forever, it is often references that the Emperor sought out his primarchs like a Father would for his lost sons. To him, these primarchs are 100% his children born from his geneseed and to see so many of his sons fall to madness and worst yet his best and brightest leading them against him, he was convinced till confronting his son Horus that this was a threat that could be dealt with... until Horus killed Sangunis.
His only hope was that in all his infinite power he could defy EXACTLY what you are shouting, that he viewed himself as capable of saving Horus rather than doing exactly what Chaos wanted. His critical error was thinking Horus was the same as he was rather than his own equal, and for the arrogance of his own power and his ignorance of the situation he is left now as the corpse god of the IOM.
You say that power means you better able to make the ciritcal decisions; I contend that with greater power comes even more temptation to make the wrong acts. My references are history such as the royal families of the middle ages wanting to succumb to incest, generals turning against their kings, Nixon and watergate or honestly any person of power scrutinized hard enough. No person walks the path of power without the desire to use it as they see fit, now if they are caught abusing such power is up to the awareness of others, but i never found what the emperor did to be spineless or foolish... in fact it is this sutble and sour note that he ends on which highlights the Horus heresy as being so traumatic to the fluff of 40k.
Horus may have had power, he may have had legions and he was going in for the kill like a rabid dog. But the Emperor, he just wanted to save his sons from the hell they were constructing for themselves. it was only when his final moments before he became inert he found the stomach to end his son. Horus had power but even though the Emperor proved stronger he had something Horus didn't Humanity, while the servants of chaos on this Forum will say that is why he was weak I will further contend that he proved the greater fighter in that regard.
A heart strong enough to reach out through the impossible for the smallest hope to bring back the most corrupted while Naive is a testament to the confidence the Emperor held in his own abilities. Showing the self restraint to not strike down your own son despite his lack of such compassion. Ultimately every player who praises Chaos as having a masterful plan just gets a chuckle out of me, for the Emperor realized Chaos found his weakness; the love he held for his sons. Rather than hide it he accepted that fact and tried to transform it into strength. He may have failed to do so, but he tried all the same.
In the end I would rather think of the Emperor trying to grasp for the Impossible rather than making calculated calls even with his own family; this quality will make him forever human in my mind. For a simple way to think of it is that if the Emperor was capable of the feats he did then he represents the analogy for an innocent enlightened human of great power. In the end, isn't that exactly what most people consider a god? I never really thought of the emperor as a true god because personally... none of the deities in 40k proper resemble my imagination of a god because their will is too constant in the fluff and their followers populated everywhere.
*shrug*
short version
A: At the time the emperor had no idea Horus could actually hurt him in such a way. Even then the Emperor conditioned warriors and he may have been strong but her never adhered to the same principles or indoctrination. This choice shouldn't come so easy to a morally sound man who trusts Horus as his greatest son. So you sound like you're teenaged or a little older to me in other words lacking a kid to empathize with the tragedy
B: Killing him straight out assumes killing Horus would even change the flow of battle against the unknowable demon hordes of chaos, So why risk tackling the unknown when you can strive for the unlikely instead? Also the Emperor didn't represent the entirety of IOM if he died and chaos was victorious humanity would still exists it just would no longer be powerful. So the Eldar more or less.
Ultimately I think you are trying to make the decision too black and white, and it would be awful writing to have the emperor turn all sociopath on his own children for no reason.
also, as far as the murderous son situation. I would try to talk to them first I would say they aren't healthy but they are mine and I am willing to set things right hell i might even cover for them if they had good enough reasons Family> World sometimes man, now in the scale of 40k? considering the Emperor wasn't even sure who was leading the hordes till they arrived at his throne i would say it was a safe bet the Emperor was still shaking with confusion and betrayal clarified
I'll try to shed my opinion on a couple of your core arguments.
I never quite said that power grants you better judgement or composure. But having lived amongst humans for several millennia sure does. As I've mentioned, the Emperor has been meddling with humanity's major affairs since even before the Bronze Age. Don't you think he's had emotional bonds with any of the countless people he's had contact with since his emergence? He's had a myriad of children, many of whom I'm sure died too. Don't you think he's already seen the worse humanity has to offer twice over already? He's seen and has probably been, in some way, involved in every genocide humanity has ever faced. I find it extremely unlikely that the HH would suddenly catch him off guard of humanity's worst assets or Chaos's deceptiveness and malevolence.
It's also pretty weird you claim Empy wanted to save his sons from a self constructed hell, yet he made them so he could throw them at the universe's worst baddies. Seems kinda conflicting. Let's not forget why the Emperor created the Primarchs in the 1st place, they were supposed to be weapons. He didn't create them for the same reasons a couple of parents decide to conceive a child. They were supposed to be weaponized from the start. Sure, you can say facing life and death situations might strengthen your bond with someone, but it's not the kind of relationship a father has with a "legit" son. I still don't buy into the father-son thing.
NEVERTHELESS, I found your interpretation concerning Empy's decision to act in accordance with his weaknesses, in spite of knowing full well it was exactly what Chaos wanted, rather than suppress or deny said weaknesses very touching and inspiring indeed. The idea that someone suffers such a cruel fate resulting from benevolence rather than cold resolve is very tragic indeed and is certainly fitting of 40k's grimdarkness.
See that people, how a well tough out and well worded argument can sway even the most thickheaded of cynics out there? Let that be a lesson to all of you.
I'll try to shed my opinion on a couple of your core arguments.
I never quite said that power grants you better judgement or composure. But having lived amongst humans for several millennia sure does. As I've mentioned, the Emperor has been meddling with humanity's major affairs since even before the Bronze Age. Don't you think he's had emotional bonds with any of the countless people he's had contact with since his emergence? He's had a myriad of children, many of whom I'm sure died too. Don't you think he's already seen the worse humanity has to offer twice over already? He's seen and has probably been, in some way, involved in every genocide humanity has ever faced. I find it extremely unlikely that the HH would suddenly catch him off guard of humanity's worst assets or Chaos's deceptiveness and malevolence.
It's also pretty weird you claim Empy wanted to save his sons from a self constructed hell, yet he made them so he could throw them at the universe's worst baddies. Seems kinda conflicting. Let's not forget why the Emperor created the Primarchs in the 1st place, they were supposed to be weapons. He didn't create them for the same reasons a couple of parents decide to conceive a child. They were supposed to be weaponized from the start. Sure, you can say facing life and death situations might strengthen your bond with someone, but it's not the kind of relationship a father has with a "legit" son. I still don't buy into the father-son thing.
NEVERTHELESS, I found your interpretation concerning Empy's decision to act in accordance with his weaknesses, in spite of knowing full well it was exactly what Chaos wanted, rather than suppress or deny said weaknesses very touching and inspiring indeed. The idea that someone suffers such a cruel fate resulting from benevolence rather than cold resolve is very tragic indeed and is certainly fitting of 40k's grimdarkness.
See that people, how a well tough out and well worded argument can sway even the most thickheaded of cynics out there? Let that be a lesson to all of you.
You may not know about the beast, as he is very discriminate. As far as I know, there has been 1 sentence about him, in the 6th ED Rulebook. It says he nearly over-ran the galaxy.
The Beast was one of the most powerful Ork Warbosses to have ever lived. In 544.M32 he united much of the Ork race and nearly succeeded in conquering the Galaxy.[1b] His Waaagh! was the largest the Galaxy has ever seen and rampaged across the Imperium, eclipsing even the one Horus defeated during the Ullanor Crusade which earned him the title of Warmaster. The Imperium only halted his advance at great cost and desperate measure, devastating the Adeptus Astartes
The Beast was one of the most powerful Ork Warbosses to have ever lived. In 544.M32 he united much of the Ork race and nearly succeeded in conquering the Galaxy.[1b] His Waaagh! was the largest the Galaxy has ever seen and rampaged across the Imperium, eclipsing even the one Horus defeated during the Ullanor Crusade which earned him the title of Warmaster. The Imperium only halted his advance at great cost and desperate measure, devastating the Adeptus Astartes
he does, and the beast isn't an avatar of gork because the universe is still standing :p
Well, when have mork and gork ever manifested their powers?The gods of chaos feed off ALL emotion, so even as mork and gork gain power, so does chaos, therefore making khorne bmore powerful. That said this is a battle of religions, because Ork fans will always say M&G will win, and chaos will always say chaos will win.. Also the c'tan aren't gods, but all powerful entities that feed on energy (they literally ate stars for breakfast) they weren't destroyed by blackstone fortresses, merely shattered, and blackstone fortresses were eldar weapons for killing gods right? Also the most powerful c'tan, the Void dragon, wasn't even taking part, he is just napping on mars. So basically the psychic gods will all be beaten by the void dragon because it is completely indestructible, and could set about killing every one of the races supplying the power of the gods of chaos and . With nothing left to supply the power to the various gods the void dragon would reign supreme, travel to the warp, tea bag all the various gods and then reap them into tiny little chunks of wary goodness. End of story
Edit: Big Mek Wurrzog it is clearly stated in the old chaos codex or the old rulebook (I can't remember which) that some represses shred of Horus' humanity stopped him from killing the emperor, and at that moment the emperor struck, tearing apart Horus' body even as he did his soul. Seems to me that the one with humanity was Horus. He killed for personal benefit because he could. But in the end he couldn't do it and let the emperor kill him, because that was the right thing.
Nemesor wrote: Well, when have mork and gork ever manifested their powers?The gods of chaos feed off ALL emotion, so even as mork and gork gain power, so does chaos, therefore making khorne bmore powerful. That said this is a battle of religions, because Ork fans will always say M&G will win, and chaos will always say chaos will win.
It's explictedly stated that Gork and Mork are more powerful than the Chaos Gods. The Orks have vastly more numerous than any other species that would feed the Chaos Gods (the Orks themselves don't seem to, aside from when they're attacking humans and the like (i.e., the affect they have on others may feed the Chaos Gods, but their own emotions don't)).
Also the c'tan aren't gods, but all powerful entities that feed on energy (they literally ate stars for breakfast) they weren't destroyed by blackstone fortresses, merely shattered, and blackstone fortresses were eldar weapons for killing gods right?
Nope. They're not all powerful, and in the recent background the majority were shattered by the Necrons after the defeat of the Old Ones.
Also the most powerful c'tan, the Void dragon, wasn't even taking part, he is just napping on mars.
Why'd he go to Mars? Because he (or at least a shard of him) was driven to Earth and then the Emperor imprisoned him on Mars. That's not a sign of his power, it's a sign of him being weaker than his foes.
thisisnotpancho wrote: Chaos gods do not have client races. They are the embodiment of emotion. All of that rage, war, and hate that the orks produce feed khorne. Same with all other war and rage and hate and blood. It's not just a specific race that represents the chaos gods
Orks don't produce hate. anger or rage their culture has no angst or stress. When ork charges to battle he doesn't feel hatred towards his foes, he feels happy because he gets to fight something.
Slaanesh has no sway on orks because Slaanesh is the god of excess and you can never have nuff DAKKA.
Do you know many orks have died to disease? As far as I know the number is around 0.
Lord of Change vs "war never changes" . How did that famous ork quote go? Something about "Ork are made fer two fings..."
I thought you had to dedicate yourself to the Chaos gods for your actions to affect them. Nothing else makes sense based on everything I've read about it. If all emotion fed them, they would have been the only beings in the warp, which they're not. In fact, they'd BE the warp. There are literally countless lesser beings in the warp, who has nothing to do with the chaos gods.
No, the chaos gods are nothing as powerful as they want you to believe. Tzeench, for example, reminds me of that kid who just does a lot of random crap, and whenever something happens which is beneficial to the kid, he goes "I meant for that to happen!". No you didn't, you imbecile.
Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it
willhman wrote: Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it
After 5 pages, I'd assumed someone had brought up Gork and Mork. But if not, this guy is dead on.
Nothing in the warp even comes close to Gork and Mork in potency.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Also, the C'Tan were god-like. Before they were shattered they basically had powers greater than that of the chaos gods.
Sure, in the Materium they had more power. They have less in the Immaterium. That said, we've never heard of the Ruinous Powers or any other 'god' of the Warp being 'killed' by anything other than another 'god'. The C'tan were capable of being destroyed (although only one was) by the Necrons. They're in a position to have more of an effect but they're also more vulnerable because of that.
In their current shattered form, there near to that of the greater daemons.
Ascalam wrote:Or the Avatar of Khaine, which is in a similar boat,
I don't know, the powers of even the C'tan shards (admittedly their power level varies massively, much like that of Greater Daemons) seem to be beyond that of Greater Daemons and certainly have more impressive feats than what I've heard of Avatars doing. That said, the problem with Greater Daemons and Avatars alike is that they generally don't seem to have as big an impact as you'd expect except in a single battle. They should be capable of turning the tides of wars but the Avatar and many Greater Daemons just seem to smash stuff up like, well, an Ork does but bigger and tougher.
Is it ever said what happens to a C'tan shard if it's destroyed?
Doesn't help that Ward is fond of having Avatars chump-slapped to make his marines look good.
Avatars are still the shattered remnants of a god. They are about on power-level with Ctan shards and Greater Daemons IMO.
Part of the problem is that the Avatar's don't get much fluff-time. The codex is ancient, and no-one is writing any new Eldar fluff unless they are using it to make their new-codex beasties look good.
One older but awesome story had the Avatar breaking a greater daemon of Slaanesh over his knee like a dry twig
Yep, Avatars C'Tan Shards and Greater Daemons are all on the same level.
2 are shatted remenats of a God or of God-Level Beings (Avatar and C'Tan) and the other are minions of God-Level beings, with powers to a lesser degree of the diety they are of.
The Avatars of Khaine all seem to be of comparable favour. The power of Greater Daemons varies, not only from Daemon to Daemon but just in terms of how much Warp energy there is for them to use. Avatars again, seem to have a consistent power level. The number of shards each C'tan is split up to, which would presumably affect their power, is unknown. Also, C'tan shards can unite. Avatars and Greater Daemons can't (or won't). Lesser C'tan shards may well be weaker or on level with Avatars of Khaine, but they will not all be of a comparable level.
I'd also argue that due to their powers not relying primarily on simply hitting things, C'tan shards would find say, fighting a certain Chapter Master easier than an Avatar of Khaine would.
SgtSixkilla wrote:I thought you had to dedicate yourself to the Chaos gods for your actions to affect them. Nothing else makes sense based on everything I've read about it. If all emotion fed them, they would have been the only beings in the warp, which they're not. In fact, they'd BE the warp. There are literally countless lesser beings in the warp, who has nothing to do with the chaos gods.
If emotion had to be dedicated to the Chaos gods to power them, they'd never have existed in the first place. They get some power from any emotion that falls into their category, they just get more if it's part of a ritual or dedicated specifically to them.
No, the chaos gods are nothing as powerful as they want you to believe. Tzeench, for example, reminds me of that kid who just does a lot of random crap, and whenever something happens which is beneficial to the kid, he goes "I meant for that to happen!". No you didn't, you imbecile.
No one has any idea how strong the gods are, because they never intervene directly in the galaxy. The majority of their power is directed against each other, with a tiny portion dedicated to making daemons or blessing their champions. And since Tzeentch has a near infinite number of plans, almost any conceivable action benefits one of them, so he can say the he planned for it to happen.
willhman wrote:Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it
Slaanesh defeated and absorbed all but three of the Eldar gods when it was created, and of those it shattered one, the second was taken prisoner by Nurgle and the third hides from Slaanesh in the Webway. So that's reasonably powerful. And Khorne has been said to be stronger than Slaanesh. I've always been curious about that bit about Gork and Mork as well. Does it say which gods, and was it a long battle or just someone throwing a punch at them?
willhman wrote:Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it
Slaanesh defeated and absorbed all but three of the Eldar gods when it was created, and of those it shattered one, the second was taken prisoner by Nurgle and the third hides from Slaanesh in the Webway. So that's reasonably powerful. And Khorne has been said to be stronger than Slaanesh. I've always been curious about that bit about Gork and Mork as well. Does it say which gods, and was it a long battle or just someone throwing a punch at them?
Considering the only gods that walk the warp unmolested by your own words in the warp are... *ahem* the chaos gods, and that only makes sense that it would be them since all gods tred the warp and no gods now exist save the Emperor, Choas and Gork n Mork that aren't in shattered material forms.
SgtSixkilla wrote:I thought you had to dedicate yourself to the Chaos gods for your actions to affect them. Nothing else makes sense based on everything I've read about it. If all emotion fed them, they would have been the only beings in the warp, which they're not. In fact, they'd BE the warp. There are literally countless lesser beings in the warp, who has nothing to do with the chaos gods.
If emotion had to be dedicated to the Chaos gods to power them, they'd never have existed in the first place.
Yes they could. How did any god in our world appear? Some schmuck made them up. It's just that in our universe, there's no "warp" for the god to exist, so they never materialize. It's fully conceivable (and more reasonable than not, in the context of the 40K universe) that at some point, different civilizations made up the different chaos gods, and then converted/produced enough followers and "belief" in that god, that the god actually materialized in the warp. Kind of like how Slaanesh was created. Actually, there's a hint in there, if you just look at it from the right angle.
Surely you've heard the quasi-philosophical conundrum of the chicken and the egg, right? Which is a stupid thing to wonder at. Without the egg, the chicken can't exist, but eggs have been around for a lot longer than chicken. The chicken is the god, and the egg is the mortals. Gods derive their power from belief, so without belief, a god can't exist, so for a god to exist, someone must believe in him. Thus, someone had to create a god to believe in, and then start believing in him, in order for him to exist.
No, the chaos gods are nothing as powerful as they want you to believe. Tzeench, for example, reminds me of that kid who just does a lot of random crap, and whenever something happens which is beneficial to the kid, he goes "I meant for that to happen!". No you didn't, you imbecile.
No one has any idea how strong the gods are, because they never intervene directly in the galaxy. The majority of their power is directed against each other, with a tiny portion dedicated to making daemons or blessing their champions. And since Tzeentch has a near infinite number of plans, almost any conceivable action benefits one of them, so he can say the he planned for it to happen.
That's exactly what I mean. That argument is stupid. I can sit on my couch and say that I have infinite plans set in motion, and then claim that every significant event that happens is part of, or a result of my plans. Doesn't make it true. I bet Tzeench was just neglected as a kid and left in front of the TV a lot.
Im not saying that the chaos gods are weak by any means. But they are not on the same level as Gork and Mork. Its proven Cause not even Khorne can make them back down if they want something. They made the Emperor of Man, the guy who holds all of the daemons from just flooding the galaxy, open his eyes in fear. None of the chaos gods have ever done that before. That shows you just how strong Gork and Mork are, Bringing fear to a being that has never known it.
SgtSixkilla wrote: Yes they could. How did any god in our world appear? Some schmuck made them up. It's just that in our universe, there's no "warp" for the god to exist, so they never materialize. It's fully conceivable (and more reasonable than not, in the context of the 40K universe) that at some point, different civilizations made up the different chaos gods, and then converted/produced enough followers and "belief" in that god, that the god actually materialized in the warp. Kind of like how Slaanesh was created. Actually, there's a hint in there, if you just look at it from the right angle.
Slaanesh was said to be created by the decadence and depravity of the Eldar, and that they were unaware of it until it devoured most of their souls. And:
Chaos Codex 4th ed wrote:
In the Warp, simillar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride... and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of Warpspace. These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the Chaos Gods were born- vast psychic presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals... Eventually, the gods reached into the dreams of mortals to demand their praise and servitude.
No dedication necessary, it happens naturally in the Warp.
Surely you've heard the quasi-philosophical conundrum of the chicken and the egg, right? Which is a stupid thing to wonder at. Without the egg, the chicken can't exist, but eggs have been around for a lot longer than chicken. The chicken is the god, and the egg is the mortals. Gods derive their power from belief, so without belief, a god can't exist, so for a god to exist, someone must believe in him. Thus, someone had to create a god to believe in, and then start believing in him, in order for him to exist.
Depends on which kind of egg you mean. Eggs in general existed long before chickens, but only chickens and other birds produce eggs with shells. And you're incorrect in thinking that the gods of 40k derive their power from belief. They derive their power from the emotion and actions of the races that fall in their domain.
That's exactly what I mean. That argument is stupid. I can sit on my couch and say that I have infinite plans set in motion, and then claim that every significant event that happens is part of, or a result of my plans. Doesn't make it true. I bet Tzeench was just neglected as a kid and left in front of the TV a lot.
Well, since Tzeentch was never a kid and TVs are hard to come by in the Warp, that seems unlikely. And since the omniscient narrator says it's true in Tzeentch's case, that makes it true.
SgtSixkilla wrote: Yes they could. How did any god in our world appear? Some schmuck made them up. It's just that in our universe, there's no "warp" for the god to exist, so they never materialize. It's fully conceivable (and more reasonable than not, in the context of the 40K universe) that at some point, different civilizations made up the different chaos gods, and then converted/produced enough followers and "belief" in that god, that the god actually materialized in the warp. Kind of like how Slaanesh was created. Actually, there's a hint in there, if you just look at it from the right angle.
Slaanesh was said to be created by the decadence and depravity of the Eldar, and that they were unaware of it until it devoured most of their souls. And:
Chaos Codex 4th ed wrote:
In the Warp, simillar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride... and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of Warpspace. These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the Chaos Gods were born- vast psychic presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals... Eventually, the gods reached into the dreams of mortals to demand their praise and servitude.
No dedication necessary, it happens naturally in the Warp.
Surely you've heard the quasi-philosophical conundrum of the chicken and the egg, right? Which is a stupid thing to wonder at. Without the egg, the chicken can't exist, but eggs have been around for a lot longer than chicken. The chicken is the god, and the egg is the mortals. Gods derive their power from belief, so without belief, a god can't exist, so for a god to exist, someone must believe in him. Thus, someone had to create a god to believe in, and then start believing in him, in order for him to exist.
Depends on which kind of egg you mean. Eggs in general existed long before chickens, but only chickens and other birds produce eggs with shells. And you're incorrect in thinking that the gods of 40k derive their power from belief. They derive their power from the emotion and actions of the races that fall in their domain.
That's exactly what I mean. That argument is stupid. I can sit on my couch and say that I have infinite plans set in motion, and then claim that every significant event that happens is part of, or a result of my plans. Doesn't make it true. I bet Tzeench was just neglected as a kid and left in front of the TV a lot.
Well, since Tzeentch was never a kid and TVs are hard to come by in the Warp, that seems unlikely. And since the omniscient narrator says it's true in Tzeentch's case, that makes it true.
SLAANESH
KHORNE
NURGLE
TZEENTCH
These gods are humorously stactic for being entities of chaos infact almost anyone can predict who is infulencing what simply by minor examination of the basic plot of any story where "chaos stands to benefit"
The reason the Chaos gods are not stronger than Gork and Mork is yes they do get residual emotion from orks but orks are inherently non-psykers this means what we produce is minimal at best for your gods. that is why mankind is so wracked by the demons of Chaos because of their incredible psyker potential even the Eldar have been known to be jealous of their raw talent in the ability. The Eldar might be better pskers but it is through runes, rituals and meditation humanity is given incredible potential that can dwarf many of the eldar at start. Luckily the Eldar kinda have a grasp on the whole avoidance of Perils of the Warp... in other words responsible casters
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck after thinking about it... the Eldar solidify their souls in their soul gems thus they can't feed Slaanesh less the gem is broken and/or not placed in the inifinity circuit.
Tyranid hold no emotions what so ever and their psychic powers are nearly impossible to backfire in fluff
Necron are obviously not psychic or emotion driven
The Tau have developed technology and have very minor influence over the mind with "education camps" and the such. Also in Firewarrior it was stated that the Tau possess a resistance to natural ability to resist mutation and possession, true they have emotion though but rarely can I imagine tau feeding the tenants of the gods.
Orks are psyker inept, But their Waaagh Energy is able to harnessed by gork and mork in the warp.
Besides humanity it looks like the only people to actively feed the chaos gods are the Dark Eldar for Slaanesh to save their own skin
If memory serves there was a bit of fluff somewhere that said that Gork and Mork don't kill off the other gods because they don't care about them enough. That's greenskin attitude for you...
angelshade00 wrote: If memory serves there was a bit of fluff somewhere that said that Gork and Mork don't kill off the other gods because they don't care about them enough. That's greenskin attitude for you...
Well yeah, why would you? You are the embodiment and apex god in all of 40k, are those Chaos gods a challenge? or is that twin of yours a better fight especially since he knows how you fight? Gork N Mork represent the pyske of the Orks constantly struggling against one another rather than focus on problems at hand because it's more fun to rough house.
) to prove it once and for all.
but i wish there was more fluff about them and whether there actually present in the universe 
) take these two disturbing factors and combine them into the largest belief within the galaxy so it should be obvious who wins. demons might feed on an orks desire for waaagh but so pure is that mindless desire it never matures into the passionate madness of a human with delectable hints of rationalization, muttering, guilt, and fear. Instead the humble ork only wants one thing other than to crack a joke, and that is to be ... ORKY
